Lately I feel things with my job and my life in general have been coming to a head. I'm sick of my dead-end job, I hate not being able to afford anything, and I really just don't know what I want to do with myself. I can't really afford school, so the Navy seems like a good alternative. There I would be able to find a real job and possibly some direction for myself. It also wouldn't hurt to be able to travel abroad, which is something I sorely want to do.
Does anyone have any experience with the Navy/the military in general? Sarge, I know you hear me. :)
I have thought about it since I have nothing going as well and no hope to go to school...but at the same time...ehhh
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 04:44:23 PM
Lately I feel things with my job and my life in general have been coming to a head. I'm sick of my dead-end job, I hate not being able to afford anything, and I really just don't know what I want to do with myself. I can't really afford school, so the Navy seems like a good alternative. There I would be able to find a real job and possibly some direction for myself. It also wouldn't hurt to be able to travel abroad, which is something I sorely want to do.
Does anyone have any experience with the Navy/the military in general? Sarge, I know you hear me. :)
Are you sure you don't qualify for any scholarships? There is quite a lot of money out there waiting to be taken, you just have to know where to look. If you are going to go the military route, at least do an ROTC program and have the military pay for you to get a decent education first.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 15, 2007, 05:11:07 PM
Are you sure you don't qualify for any scholarships?
I don't think I qualify for many, and the ones that I would qualify for wouldn't be sufficient to pay my way through school without me being dangerously in debt by the end of it. I was not a very good student, and spent most of the time daydreaming and navel-gazing instead of doing homework — I'm suffering for it now.
I'd seriously recommend thinking about what you really enjoy doing, what you want to do with the rest of your life, and how you plan to get there! Maybe you are interested in cars and would like to be a mechanic? Maybe you like working with your hands, building things? You already expressed an interest in motorcycles (which I have nothing against, so long as they don't split my eardrums!)
Don't discount so-called "blue collar" jobs and don't discount skipping college alltogether if you are not interested and don't think you'll be happy there! College is not for everybody, period. Everyone would be much better off if more people realized this. And also, college (or at least four-year colleges) are not the only way to gain job skills.
If you're interested in trades, you could certainly take some classes at community colleges (for relatively little expense, at least compared to 4 year colleges and universitites), to get a little background, then do a bit of networking and look for internships or apprenticeships with successful practicioners in your future field! Most people are somewhat flattered to find you are interested in what they do, and that you might like to learn from them. Expect to pay your dues at first, doing fairly mundane tasks for not much money!
Good car mechanics, electricians, plumbers, builders, contractors, landscapers, etc.etc. will always be in demand and can pretty much live anywhere they like. And you have a good chance of making a very comfortable living if you're good at what you do and have basic people skills (politeness, punctuality, professionalism, etc.)
Scholarships are available for trade schools, and apprenticeships too!
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 04:44:23 PM
Lately I feel things with my job and my life in general have been coming to a head. I'm sick of my dead-end job, I hate not being able to afford anything, and I really just don't know what I want to do with myself. I can't really afford school, so the Navy seems like a good alternative. There I would be able to find a real job and possibly some direction for myself. It also wouldn't hurt to be able to travel abroad, which is something I sorely want to do.
Does anyone have any experience with the Navy/the military in general? Sarge, I know you hear me. :)
It would be helpful if you let us know a little more about what your current job is, what education and job experience you have so far, what interest and aspirations, what you would ideally and/or realistically like to study and do for a living some day. Then I think we can give you much better and more specific advice.
Quote from: M forever on July 15, 2007, 05:50:21 PM
It would be helpful if you let us know a little more about what your current job is, what education and job experience you have so far, what interest and aspirations, what you would ideally and/or realistically like to study and do for a living some day. Then I think we can give you much better and more specific advice.
I have a high school education, and all my past jobs have been crap retail positions.
I really don't know what I want to do. I'm interested in history, languages, culture, and other general things like that, but there isn't anything that seems like it would make a viable career for me.
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on July 15, 2007, 05:41:39 PM
I'd seriously recommend thinking about what you really enjoy doing, what you want to do with the rest of your life, and how you plan to get there! Maybe you are interested in cars and would like to be a mechanic? Maybe you like working with your hands, building things? You already expressed an interest in motorcycles (which I have nothing against, so long as they don't split my eardrums!)
Don't discount so-called "blue collar" jobs and don't discount skipping college alltogether if you are not interested and don't think you'll be happy there! College is not for everybody, period. Everyone would be much better off if more people realized this. And also, college (or at least four-year colleges) are not the only way to gain job skills.
If you're interested in trades, you could certainly take some classes at community colleges (for relatively little expense, at least compared to 4 year colleges and universitites), to get a little background, then do a bit of networking and look for internships or apprenticeships with successful practicioners in your future field! Most people are somewhat flattered to find you are interested in what they do, and that you might like to learn from them. Expect to pay your dues at first, doing fairly mundane tasks for not much money!
Good car mechanics, electricians, plumbers, builders, contractors, landscapers, etc.etc. will always be in demand and can pretty much live anywhere they like. And you have a good chance of making a very comfortable living if you're good at what you do and have basic people skills (politeness, punctuality, professionalism, etc.)
Scholarships are available for trade schools, and apprenticeships too!
Thanks for that. It's all very sensible advice, but I don't think a trade is for me.
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 06:05:23 PM
I have a high school education, and all my past jobs have been crap retail positions.
I really don't know what I want to do. I'm interested in history, languages, culture, and other general things like that, but there isn't anything that seems like it would make a viable career for me.
Looks like you really have no other choice but to join the Navy then. Good luck, and try not to get killed!
I've lived in a household where pretty much "You're going to college" is the way....Doing otherwise is pretty much not an option.
I don't have any idea what I want to do with my life but I am majoring in music because it is interesting to me. I don't really want to get a career in this field, but who knows.
But the thing is, I've talked to many, many counselors/psychologists and they all say the same thing: that it doesn't matter what you get you major in, as long as you got it in something. Ultimately, employers just want to see that you applied yourself and worked hard and earned your degree. Obviously it is helpful to get background in something you want and move forward with, but life doesn't always work out that way. I was thinking about getting a masters in library science and becoming a music librarian--or even just a regular librarian? But who knows thats still a few years away.
I think a lot of life, especially the workforce, is more "who" you know than "what" you know, but unfortunately not everybody is that lucky.
I would have loved to get a job out of high school...go to communtiy college and get a certificate in something fun, but like I said that was not an option in my house. I definitely would not be going to college if I was the one who had to foot the ball, and I feel really bad when I hear about how my friends have to work extra jobs to pay for college and parents aren't willing to help out. But thats life I guess.
I feel really bad when I hear about how my friends have to work extra jobs to pay for college and parents aren't willing to help out. But thats life I guess.
QuoteWorking and doing college just isn't an option if you like to sleep.
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 05:16:12 PM
I don't think I qualify for many, and the ones that I would qualify for wouldn't be sufficient to pay my way through school without me being dangerously in debt by the end of it. I was not a very good student, and spent most of the time daydreaming and navel-gazing instead of doing homework — I'm suffering for it now.
Don't just discount the possibility that there is the right scholarship out there for you. Seriously, do yourself the favor and do a solid couple of days of research on this before giving up on college entirely. Not all scholarships are based on high school grades alone. There really is a ton of money out there for grabs that doesn't even get claimed every year because people don't necessarily know about the existence of certain scholarships. Don't be so bummed by your prior academic record to become complacent and not look up what scholarships are out there. Some colleges are also far more generous with financial aid than one would think.
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 06:05:23 PM
I'm interested in history, languages, culture, and other general things like that, but there isn't anything that seems like it would make a viable career for me.
Do you have any flair for languages at all? That might be something to talk to the recruiter about. The government in general is desperate for anybody who can read a shopping list in, say, Russian or Arabic.
I hope Sarge or some active/long-time military person floats through here and can tell you more of what to expect and ask about.
Quote from: M forever on July 15, 2007, 06:36:54 PM
Looks like you really have no other choice but to join the Navy then. Good luck, and try not to get killed!
So what did you do? Have you been completely successful in every venture throughout your entire life? Why do you feel you have to be condescending to me?
Quote from: Earthlight on July 15, 2007, 07:12:26 PM
Do you have any flair for languages at all? That might be something to talk to the recruiter about. The government in general is desperate for anybody who can read a shopping list in, say, Russian or Arabic.
I don't believe they care about Russian much anymore. There is still an oversupply of Russian translators. Arabic definitely, also Kazakh and Uzbek are very hot.
Quote from: tjguitar on July 15, 2007, 06:41:24 PM
But the thing is, I've talked to many, many counselors/psychologists and they all say the same thing: that it doesn't matter what you get you major in, as long as you got it in something. Ultimately, employers just want to see that you applied yourself and worked hard and earned your degree....
(http://i.pbase.com/t1/59/9559/4/57783414.BSMeter.jpg)
This is exactly why you and others at your stage in life need to talk to some people in the real world. The sad fact is that the great majority of employers could not care less what you did in college, what your GPA was, or that you were captain of intramural football team. Most employers don't care whether you "applied yourself" or whether you lied, cheated, and BS-ed your way through school. (In fact, unfortunately, if you did, you will appear to be very good managment material!) Really, the most important consideration is whether you have the skills, knowledge, and maturity necessary to do the job and to make a positive contribution to their bottom line! Regardless of what your degree is in, or how hard you applied yourself, most employers are going to want to see some real-world experience (possibly a lot of it!) before they'll even think of giving you a job. As, I have said elsewhere, many entry -level positions now require Masters degrees!
In today's world, most people will have more than one employer, and many will have more than one career. The old days in which an employer would take primary responsiblity for your training, would give you a pension and a bit of job security are over. There are too many people, too many qualified graduates, for that! I hate to sound like a curmudgeon and to discourage you, but the alternative is that you will listen to these counselers, and not think about the consequences of aimlessly going through school, racking up a huge amount of debt, not acquiring necessary skills to get a job, and suffering for it in the long run!
None of this is to say you can't dream big, and get what you want out of life. Just don't put too much stock in your counselers' advice here!
Something I did when I was in-between careers was to go through the Yellow Pages A-Z and jot down all the possible vocations that interest you; literally write down everything thats remotely interesting to you. You'll turn up many things that you'd never have otherwise considered.
I don't know the situation in the States, but often a short course at night school or tech will get you an attendance certificate in an area that interests you then start pursuing job opportunities in that direction. The certificate will show you're keen and someone will give you a break :)
The idea of joining the armed forces sounds like a last resort to me :(
Good luck :)
A friend of mine here who was in the Army went through the Russian translator program in Monterey. He showed me his study material and the kind of tests they had to take. That was definitely a little more than reading a shopping list. He speaks Russian really fluently even though he hasn't used it much during the last 10 years. But they hammered that into the students in 1 1/2 or 2 years or so, in mega-intensive training courses. Definitely not something for somebody who likes to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that, quite apart rom the fact that they probably really don't need quite as much Russian translators anymore as they used to back then (that was in the 80s when he took his course).
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 07:13:46 PM
So what did you do? Have you been completely successful in every venture throughout your entire life? Why do you feel you have to be condescending to me?
I wasn't being condescending at all. I meant that seriously. You have no defined aims, no really specific interests, no qualified job experience of any kind, no particular skills, no interest in learning a trade, no money to go to college, what else do you want to do apart from continuing to work in "retail crap jobs"?
My personal experiences won't be of much help for you. At your age, I had the opposite set of problems. I was very deeply interested in a number of subjects, played the bass like a young devil and already made some reasonably good money with that (for the kind of lifestyle I had then), was massively interested in technical subjects and a few other things, had already worked several years in arthouse cinemas as a projectionist since I was 15 (not the kind you find in largely automated multiplex cinemas today, the old school kind who could run and adjust everything manually, and that was paid really well back then) and had a lot of experience working with sound systems of diverse sorts, so I also had a really hard time figuring out what to do, but not because there was nothing that really held my interest, but because of the exact opposite. I thought long and hard about studying either music or electrical engineering and it was really hard for me to make up my mind. For a while, I also thought pretty seriously about studying archaeology (no joke), but I then decided to study music and sound engineering on the side.
To answer your other question, no, I haven't been successful "in all my ventures", some things work out for you, some don't, but then you just battle on. But I wouldn't call what you have under your belt so far "ventures" of any kind, it looks more like the avoidance of "ventures".
You seem to be pretty sensitive and defensive about not really having been active in doing much so far, that tells me that it is high time for you to get your ass off the couch and kicked a little. It appears to me that the Navy might help you with that.
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on July 15, 2007, 07:24:29 PM
(http://i.pbase.com/t1/59/9559/4/57783414.BSMeter.jpg)
This is exactly why you and others at your stage in life need to talk to some people in the real world. The sad fact is that the great majority of employers could not care less what you did in college, what your GPA was, or that you were captain of intramural football team. Most employers don't care whether you "applied yourself" or whether you lied, cheated, and BS-ed your way through school. (In fact, unfortunately, if you did, you will appear to be very good managment material!) Really, the most important consideration is whether you have the skills, knowledge, and maturity necessary to do the job and to make a positive contribution to their bottom line! Regardless of what your degree is in, or how hard you applied yourself, most employers are going to want to see some real-world experience (possibly a lot of it!) before they'll even think of giving you a job. As, I have said elsewhere, many entry -level positions now require Masters degrees!
In today's world, most people will have more than one employer, and many will have more than one career. The old days in which an employer would take primary responsiblity for your training, would give you a pension and a bit of job security are over. There are too many people, too many qualified graduates, for that! I hate to sound like a curmudgeon and to discourage you, but the alternative is that you will listen to these counselers, and not think about the consequences of aimlessly going through school, racking up a huge amount of debt, not acquiring necessary skills to get a job, and suffering for it in the long run!
None of this is to say you can't dream big, and get what you want out of life. Just don't put too much stock in your counselers' advice here!
My dad owns a business...I think he'd have a clue. The stats show that those with degrees end up making more. Of course stats dont necessarily mean anything, but what esle is there?
Those who have a degree are going to have a better chance of getting that job than someone who doesn't. Of course experience means everything, but everyone has to start somewhere....thats the hardest damn part....
Quote from: M forever on July 15, 2007, 07:39:27 PM
what else do you want to do apart from continuing to work in "retail crap jobs"?
Where I come from, retail jobs are all you can get.
QuoteBut I wouldn't call what you have under your belt so far "ventures" of any kind, it looks more like the avoidance of "ventures".
It's not so much avoidance as it is uncertainty and lack of opportunity. Who would want to hire someone whose last job was a Walmart Supercenter? The point of joining the Navy would be to gain that needed experience.
QuoteYou seem to be pretty sensitive and defensive about not really having been active in doing much so far
Not defensive, just frustrated.
Quote
It's not so much avoidance as it is uncertainty and lack of opportunity. Who would want to hire someone whose last job was a Walmart Supercenter?
Don't you have a community college nearby? You can get a certificatation or AA in pretty much two years, and it is relatively cheap compared to "real" colleges (the classes cost less than the books!). community colleges have degrees/certificaitons in EVERYTHING. The local one here as an AA in photography, for instance.
All you need is a HS diploma to get accepted to a community college. If serving the country sounds interesting to you, that's awesome, but I wouldn't do it for any other reason...
Whats wrong with working at Walmart? My last job was delivering pizza and that was in 2004.
Listen, a community college is not just a way to get an associate's degree or a certification. It can also be the jumping-off point to a four-year degree. I recall reading, not too long ago, that an increasing number of students were going to a community college to get some grades and classes under their belts and then transferring or applying to prestigious universities. Indiana's system (Ivy Tech) prides itself on sending a lot of students both to the workforce and to four-year schools. That might not be your thing, but it's an option. Depending on your situation, furthermore, there is a lot of state and federal financial aid out there - for the taking, in many cases, and with little or no debt associated with it. There are always options, and there are plenty of steps along the way where you can say, "I've had enough" and still be ready to start work.
I'll say this, too, don't look at the military as a fall-back. It's not like working at a bookstore for a couple of years "to sort things out;" it's a real commitment that demands real sacrifice. I know young men and women who have gone into it for all sorts of reasons, and - almost to a person - the ones who want to do it have an easier and more productive time of it than the ones that don't. If you really want to do that, then go for it. If not, then think long and hard about it.
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 15, 2007, 08:44:03 PM
Listen, a community college is not just a way to get an associate's degree or a certification. It can also be the jumping-off point to a four-year degree. I recall reading, not too long ago, that an increasing number of students were going to a community college to get some grades and classes under their belts and then transferring or applying to prestigious universities. Indiana's system (Ivy Tech) prides itself on sending a lot of students both to the workforce and to four-year schools. That might not be your thing, but it's an option. Depending on your situation, furthermore, there is a lot of state and federal financial aid out there - for the taking, in many cases, and with little or no debt associated with it. There are always options, and there are plenty of steps along the way where you can say, "I've had enough" and still be ready to start work.
I'll say this, too, don't look at the military as a fall-back. It's not like working at a bookstore for a couple of years "to sort things out;" it's a real commitment that demands real sacrifice. I know young men and women who have gone into it for all sorts of reasons, and - almost to a person - the ones who want to do it have an easier and more productive time of it than the ones that don't. If you really want to do that, then go for it. If not, then think long and hard about it.
That is true. Its also MUCH, MUCH cheaper to get your first two years done at a community college. I'm not sure about other states but in CA, there's four year schools that are affordable (called the Cal State system). It's conceivable to get a bachelor's at a decent price. At least compared to private schools, and "University of California" 's
Quote from: tjguitar on July 15, 2007, 07:57:10 PM
My dad owns a business...I think he'd have a clue. The stats show that those with degrees end up making more. Of course stats dont necessarily mean anything, but what esle is there?
Those who have a degree are going to have a better chance of getting that job than someone who doesn't. Of course experience means everything, but everyone has to start somewhere....thats the hardest damn part....
Well ask your dad if he'd hire someone with no experience and some degree not related to the business, simply because the applicant "applied himself". Maybe he would, but he's surely in the minority. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from getting a degree. What I'm trying to caution against is just following the advice of some counselor who tells you to just major in anything and don't worry. (unless of course you and / or your parents can afford to throw tens of thousands of dollars at some university every year for several years!)
And you have to remember that those statistics about graduates earning more are highly skewed by people with "professional" degrees (doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc.) Go ask some new assistant professor (or worse yet, a lecturer at some huge research institution) with a Ph.D. in English or History how lucrative education is!
why are you talking to us? you should call the navy recruitment, i bet they will be very helpful.
Quote
Well ask your dad if he'd hire someone with no experience and some degree not related to the business, simply because the applicant "applied himself".
Thats not the point. The logic is that those with a degree from a college and no experience is more likely to get a position than those with no degree and no experience. Obviously experience > degree. Though supposeldy a degree grabs you a higher salary. *shrug*
QuoteI'm not trying to dissuade anyone from getting a degree. What I'm trying to caution against is just following the advice of some counselor who tells you to just major in anything and don't worry.
What is your occupation if you don't mind me asking?
Quote from: tjguitar on July 15, 2007, 09:06:17 PM
That is true. Its also MUCH, MUCH cheaper to get your first two years done at a community college. I'm not sure about other states but in CA, there's four year schools that are affordable (called the Cal State system). It's conceivable to get a bachelor's at a decent price. At least compared to private schools, and "University of California" 's
I think most states have either regional schools, or regional campuses of the major state university. The two big state schools in Indiana, Purdue University and Indiana University, have main campuses (West Lafayette and Bloomington, respectively) and then regional campuses sprinkled throughout the state. There are also regional schools like Ball State University, Indiana State University, and the University of Southern Indiana. Those schools do different things and offer different experiences than IU or Purdue.
You might see what your state offers from its major universities. I'll say this, most states want as many people to go to college as possible. You should plan what you want out of your college career (and your career in general) and what you'll need to go to the next level. If you don't know, think about what you'd like to do and go talk to people who do that. You'll find out real quickly what's needed.
Quote
You might see what your state offers from its major universities. I'll say this, most states want as many people to go to college as possible. You should plan what you want out of your college career (and your career in general) and what you'll need to go to the next level. If you don't know, think about what you'd like to do and go talk to people who do that. You'll find out real quickly what's needed.
The biggest problem is figuring out what you want to do. Even worse when you essentially don't care. I just want to be able to support myself, afford the cost of living, do something that doesn't require too much physical labor, etc.
Quote from: Kullervo on July 15, 2007, 06:05:23 PM
I really don't know what I want to do. I'm interested in history, languages, culture, and other general things like that, but there isn't anything that seems like it would make a viable career for me.
These are all interests that you could develop well in college, if you were prepared to work a little at it.
My advice here is worth very little, but I wouldn't imagine a stretch in the Navy would be the easy option in terms of workload...
Hi Kullervo,
Time for a reality check.
I'm sure you're figuring that going to the Navy will keep you from ground duty in Afghanistan or Iraq. It won't. To meet force quotas, a lot of sailors have found themselves sailing sand, not oceans.
That said, the Navy is a fine option. I'm an Air Force man myself, and we consider those tin cans the world's biggest targets, but they sure look good.
What you have to decide upon is your mindset. At present it is "that's the only kind of job you can get around here."
So - decision number 1 for you: Are you going to look for employment, or are you going to employ yourself? Ten years from now you could be ridiculously successful, if you have the right mindset. And success isn't necessarily measured in money, though that helps.
I like Wanderer's suggestion. Go through the yellow pages, from A-Z. Write down every profession that appeals to you, or where you think you might have a skill set that would help you get an entry level position - if your goal is to be an employee.
I like what M-Forever is telling you, which is get a damn rocket up your ass and get going. Yes, it's easy to get despondent. The educational system, as a general rule, is crap; and present day capitalism seems bent on keeping people sedentary and in a buying mode - whether you are playing games, watching movies, surfing the net, heating a seat at the movies or in a fast food restaurant.
BUT - the fact that you are here puts you apart from the rest of the drones out there. You've got art in your heart. Why don't you do something with that?
Not a good musician? Well, open a venue, start charging people who want to listen to good music. Book bands.
You already know your way around computers. Start a record label. Publish books about musicians. Your English is good, you can express yourself. You're doing ennui, remorse, melancholy and regret to perfection - now work on some other moods.
Keen on electronics? A huge field is opening up now when it comes to people storing their music in computers and wanting it available everywhere, at different levels of quality. You could aim for some opportunities there.
At no time previously have there been as many opportunities for people as there are today, and you don't need to go the traditional university route.
I also like O'Mensch's suggestion that you should look into available scholarships. There are lots out there. Also consider trade schools - you will be surprised at how that is going to open up in a few year's time. The present outsourcing development is going to head straight into a wall soon, for a variety of reasons, and if you posiiton yourself right, you stand to reap the benefits.
What I will not accept, at any moment, is that there are no opportunities out there. You're literally awash in opportunity - just don't be a drone.
And think twice before going to that recruiting office. You may be seeing yourself smartly dressed in profile against some Pacific island, on the deck of a navy vessel. I see you walking down a street in Haditha, wondering WTF?
Quote from: Soundproof on July 16, 2007, 03:43:55 AM
The educational system, as a general rule, is crap
(really?)
Quote from: D Minor on July 16, 2007, 03:54:25 AM
(really?)
Unless you can pay your way, and ensure you're going into excellent schools, at every single stage - yes.
Kullervo, going to college has advantages beyond just getting a useful qualification.
1. It buys you time. Your profile says you are now 20. That's not so old ... but before long, people are going to expect you to have some idea what you're going to do for a living. The 3 or 4 years you spend in college insulate you from that kind of pressure (including the kind of pressure you apply to yourself.) You're just "a student."
2. It opens up other opportunities. At college, you don't just spend time studying for your chosen subject. You meet people - and you get involved in stuff - and who knows what you might get interested in. Yes, often you could do those things without going to college - but college may provide you with more available opportunities - and the fact is, you've already reached age 20 without doing them or even knowing what they are. This is not unusual. I went through a series of academic hothouses until at age 16 I went off to college - with everything all mapped out, supposedly - but where I discovered that what I really liked doing was stage lighting. I only started into it at college, to help out a friend who was directing a student show. Then I met other people - who knew other people - started doing jobs at weekends - and when I left, that's what I was doing for a living. It would never even have occurred to me as a possibility before I went to college.
So I second those who suggest you really do explore every opportunity to go to college before dismissing it. What you go to college for, is probably secondary. No, college isn't everything - but in your position, I'd imagine 3 or 4 years at pretty much any college, studying anything, is going to look better than 3 or 4 more years bumming around in "crap retail jobs."
As to the value of education, my general rule is simple: what you put into it, you get out of it.
You can attend the best colleges, but if you're indifferent to education and/or unmotivated to learn, then much of the schooling will be a waste. On the other hand, if you're highly motivated, then the rewards of higher education could be immeasurably great.
Quote from: D Minor on July 16, 2007, 04:50:13 AM
As to the value of education, my general rule is simple: what you put into it, you get out of it.
You can attend the best colleges, but if you're indifferent to education and/or unmotivated to learn, then much of the schooling will be a waste. On the other hand, if you're highly motivated, then the rewards of higher education could be immeasurably great.
We're in agreement.
Thanks, everyone. I don't think I see any bad advice here.
interesting thread....
Kullervo, if you don't really want to go to the Navy and have no passion for it, then obviously you need to find something else, and yeah, that means going to school.
i can definetely relate with you in several ways- having an interest in culture, history, language, etc. but realizing there's no real careers that are easy to get into with those interests. And music, too, it's not very likely and too much of a risk. When you're 30 and starting to support a family, you need a reliable, steady job with a good pay.
it sounds like you're in nearly the same situation as i am, just that you're a year older. It's after high school and you don't have any scholarships or anything since you didn't really do that great, so you can't go to 4-year colleges either because financial aid only covers so much. So it's either community college or technical school.
this is what i'm doing- going to either technical school or community college and going into a computer-related program. When you get done, you take a certification test. Once you're certified in whatever program you're using, you can start getting jobs that start out at $30-40,000 dollars a year, and can end up being as high as $80,000 a year if you're very experienced a professional. This is according to my research.....
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2007, 05:46:20 AM
this is what i'm doing- going to either technical school or community college and going into a computer-related program. When you get done, you take a certification test. Once you're certified in whatever program you're using, you can start getting jobs that start out at $30-40,000 dollars a year, and can end up being as high as $80,000 a year if you're very experienced a professional. This is according to my research.....
Another factor to consider: if you graduate from a 2-year school and get a decent entry-level position, many employers will provide tuition reimbursement so that you can continue your education once hired. There are strings attached, of course: you have to outlay the money, you may not be reimbursed 100%, and you will be required to earn a good enough grade to qualify for the reimbursement. But though a 4-year degree may be more lucrative at the start, I don't think the 2-year school option is necessarily a bad one. In the software firm where I work, we have 2-year degree people working in technical support, PC maintenance, networks, and related areas.
Like others here, I feel your notion of joining the Navy is more out of desperation than desire. Unless you're certain you want to serve your country in that way and take the obvious risks, I don't think it's the best idea for you.
Edited to add: Regarding the costs of higher education, you should also research the possible tax benefits to your family if you go to school. There are federal tax credits such as the Hope Credit and Lifetime Learning Credit that might help you and your family if you qualify.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on July 16, 2007, 06:00:42 AM
Another factor to consider: if you graduate from a 2-year school and get a decent entry-level position, many employers will provide tuition reimbursement so that you can continue your education once hired. There are strings attached, of course: you have to outlay the money, and you will be required to earn a good enough grade to qualify for the reimbursement. But though a 4-year degree may be more lucrative at the start, I don't think the 2-year school option is necessarily a bad one. In the software firm where I work, we have 2-year degree people working in technical support, PC maintenance, networks, and related areas.
Really? I didn't know that; that'd be pretty cool if you could end up making more money with a type of 4-year degree in that way......
hey, that's interesting that you mention that people are working in the jobs i'm aiming for at the very place you work
do you know if any of them went to technical school?
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2007, 06:09:57 AM
Really? I didn't know that; that'd be pretty cool if you could end up making more money with a type of 4-year degree in that way......
hey, that's interesting that you mention that people are working in the jobs i'm aiming for at the very place you work
do you know if any of them went to technical school?
http://adulted.about.com/cs/financialaid/a/tuitionreimburs.htm
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on July 16, 2007, 06:14:26 AM
http://adulted.about.com/cs/financialaid/a/tuitionreimburs.htm
nice 8)
Kullervo, you've ruined my afternoon. I've been pondering what to tell you. I don't take this lightly. Afterall, it is a possible life or death decision. There is so much to say and unfortunately little time to say it right now. I'll write more later, possibly in a PM. But my gut reaction is: no, you don't want to enlist. Only fools volunteer during wartime.
On the other hand: When your children ask you, What did you do in the war, Daddy? it won't feel good to say, I stocked shelves at Walmart. Obviously I can't say serving is a bad thing. I'm proud of the 21 years I served and the experiences were incredible. I wouldn't change my life; it worked out well for me.
More later.
Sarge
P.S. You've gotten some good advice from the others...all of them. I wouldn't expect less from this great group.
Quote from: Choo Choo on July 16, 2007, 04:21:33 AM
Kullervo, going to college has advantages beyond just getting a useful qualification.
1. It buys you time. Your profile says you are now 20. That's not so old ... but before long, people are going to expect you to have some idea what you're going to do for a living. The 3 or 4 years you spend in college insulate you from that kind of pressure (including the kind of pressure you apply to yourself.) You're just "a student."
2. It opens up other opportunities. At college, you don't just spend time studying for your chosen subject. You meet people - and you get involved in stuff - and who knows what you might get interested in. Yes, often you could do those things without going to college - but college may provide you with more available opportunities - and the fact is, you've already reached age 20 without doing them or even knowing what they are. This is not unusual. I went through a series of academic hothouses until at age 16 I went off to college - with everything all mapped out, supposedly - but where I discovered that what I really liked doing was stage lighting. I only started into it at college, to help out a friend who was directing a student show. Then I met other people - who knew other people - started doing jobs at weekends - and when I left, that's what I was doing for a living. It would never even have occurred to me as a possibility before I went to college.
So I second those who suggest you really do explore every opportunity to go to college before dismissing it. What you go to college for, is probably secondary. No, college isn't everything - but in your position, I'd imagine 3 or 4 years at pretty much any college, studying anything, is going to look better than 3 or 4 more years bumming around in "crap retail jobs."
I think Choo Choo is absolutely right. The life skills you learn at college are just as (if not more) important than the stuff you learn in the classroom. You can learn a lot about yourself 9 months away from your family/hometown.
Oh, speaking of using a community college or regional college as a springboard... a friend of mine went to a regional college for a year and then transferred to Northwestern where she graduated as valedictorian of her class. Again, don't let mediocre high school grades fool you into believing you're at a dead end. Many ways lead to Rome. Nothing will let you experiment with different fields of interest while developing essential skills like college will. (And nothing is a better insurance against future unemployment than alumni connections!) Don't give up on it without at least trying. Also again, there are scholarships and grants out there. I graduated with no college debt (law school was another matter entirely) thanks to grants and scholarships. Granted that was ten years ago, but still, it can be done.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 16, 2007, 08:20:27 AM
Oh, speaking of using a community college or regional college as a springboard... a friend of mine went to a regional college for a year and then transferred to Northwestern where she graduated as valedictorian of her class. Again, don't let mediocre high school grades fool you into believing you're at a dead end. Many ways lead to Rome. Nothing will let you experiment with different fields of interest while developing essential skills like college will. (And nothing is a better insurance against future unemployment than alumni connections!) Don't give up on it without at least trying. Also again, there are scholarships and grants out there. I graduated with no college debt (law school was another matter entirely) thanks to grants and scholarships. Granted that was ten years ago, but still, it can be done.
I hate to derail the thread but since you went to law school you seem like a good person to ask. I am about your age (I'm 32) and am consider going to law school. I am pretty sick of doing engineering. Yeah the money is not bad 90-100K or so but it seems like that appears to be the ceiling. There are very senior level engineers that only make maybe 1.5 times that. Seems like it sort of guarantees a middle class living but no big $$$ in sight. I am thinking of going to law school to do patent law and maybe strike it big with a private law firm. I actually took the LSAT a couple of years ago but didn't apply. It seems to me that the potential to make more money is much better with a law degree than as an engineer. What is your take ?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 08:29:13 AM
I hate to derail the thread but since you went to law school you seem like a good person to ask. I am about your age (I'm 32) and am consider going to law school. I am pretty sick of doing engineering. Yeah the money is not bad 90-100K or so but it seems like that appears to be the ceiling. There are very senior level engineers that only make maybe 1.5 times that. Seems like it sort of guarantees a middle class living but no big $$$ in sight. I am thinking of going to law school to do patent law and maybe strike it big with a private law firm. I actually took the LSAT a couple of years ago but didn't apply. It seems to me that the potential to make more money is much better with a law degree than as an engineer. What is your take ?
I guess derailing threads is an old GMG tradition... ;D Whether law school is the right thing for you is a personal question that I can't answer. Money and career prospects aside, a legal career is a serious change in lifestyle that you should be aware of and prepared for.
The only way to make serious money right out of law school is to go work for a large corporate law firm in one of the major legal markets (NY, DC, LA, SF, Chicago, Boston). But that is a very peculiar lifestyle. Some people describe it as "sweatshops". Major corporate law firms these days expect you to bill at least 2,000-2,300 hours per year - that's net billable client hours, not the amount of time you actually spend in the office. So, think about this long and hard before you make the move. That being said, I think patent law is one of the better legal areas in which to specialize. With your engineering background you will have the requisite technical knowledge to understand what your clients want to do. And lifestyle tends to be a bit better in patent law as the urgency level of the transactions is not quite as high as, say, in mergers & acquisitions or bankruptcy. The patent lawyers I know tend to be much happier people than the litigators and finance lawyers I know. I would investigate the leading patent law firms in the areas where you want to live and talk to people who work there.
But doing your research is key here. You will want to know in advance what life is like after you get your degree and where you should be looking to get your degree in order to have the best job prospects. While the top ten law schools will open just about any door you want, some regional second tier schools have an excellent reputation in certain markets. I know for example one major Wall Street firm that prefers to hire Fordham graduates with top grades rather than Yale or Harvard grads with only a B average because they allegedly work harder.
But above all, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Job dissatisfaction and depression are very, very high among lawyers. From my close circle of law school friends, several are no longer lawyers, and mind you all these kids went to one of the top five law schools and gave up six digit salaries. One is now a high school teacher, two became a housewives. From my end, your (presumably 9-5) job paying $90-100K sounds rather attractive. I might make more money right now, but frankly without the law school debt, I don't think I would need that sort of salary anyway. Next week I am going on my first proper vacation since January '06 (!) and that's only because I just quit my job and will start a new in one late August, so I am taking a month off in between, unpaid of course.
Sorry if I sound a bit pessimistic. But the agressiveness of today's business world has turned the legal profession into a brutal money making machine that burns out many people each year. The turnover of young people at major firms is quite astounding actually. It may be the right thing for you if you know what you want and you know the niche in which you want to specialize and you have a genuine intellectual interest in legal analysis that will keep you interested for a lifetime. But do your research beforehand. Otherwise, if your only concern is big bucks, you'd be far better off getting a job at a hedge fund that specializes in tech stocks. Your engineering background will be a major asset there as it allows you to evaluate the sanity of the business in which your hedge fund wants to invest. You will make much more money without incurring the debt involved with going law school, believe me. My sister-in law was pre-med in college and went to work for a hedge fund that specialized in biotech/medical companies. She raked in more money right out of college than I ever did after law school.
PS: how long will it take for someone to devise a forum software that will allow for threads that branch out into multiple separate threads? It would make GMG so much neater.
Thanks for the reply O Mensch. I know what your are saying. My aunt and her ex-husband went to Boston Univ. Law and while he likes his corporate job, she hated it and hasn't practiced law in about 10 years. I actually got admitted to Fordham Law two years ago but declined to attend because I had my first kid and being new parents and all we were overwhelmed and I found it hard to start law school then. I think if I get some grant from a school like St. John it should make my financial situation a lot better. My aunt actually gave me contact info for some patent attorneys she knew but I didn't contact them because I had made up my mind not to go. I live in NYC and it seems that even if you graduate NOT from NYU, Columbia, or Fordham but from a nice second tier school like Brooklyn Law or St. John and you have good grades and the right specialty finding a good job is not terribly difficult. I don't think I want to work 60-70 hrs a work. I was thinking possibly working for legal divisions of companies like Citibank or JP Morgan Chase.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 08:29:13 AM
I hate to derail the thread but since you went to law school you seem like a good person to ask. I am about your age (I'm 32) and am consider going to law school. I am pretty sick of doing engineering. Yeah the money is not bad 90-100K or so but it seems like that appears to be the ceiling. There are very senior level engineers that only make maybe 1.5 times that. Seems like it sort of guarantees a middle class living but no big $$$ in sight.
90-100K middle class? :o
sounds more like WAY upper class to me
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2007, 09:43:54 AM
90-100K middle class? :o
sounds more like WAY upper class to me
Don't know...My wife makes a little over $60K so you'd think between the two of us we would be pretty good to go. We are hardly big spenders. But every month after the $2500 mortgage payment, the $200 electricity and gas bill, and all the gas and commuting costs we don't have much left over. I know, when I was 18 or 19 or 20 I though: Hell yeah:
90K would be great ! But now it's like:
Uhhhh...
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 09:34:23 AM
I live in NYC and it seems that even if you graduate NOT from NYU, Columbia, or Fordham but from a nice second tier school like Brooklyn Law or St. John and you have good grades and the right specialty finding a good job is not terribly difficult.
Yes, provided you are in the top 10-15% of your class if you went to a second tier school and provided the economy is doing well. In 2001/02 you probably would have been SOL with anything less than an absolutely stellar GPA from a second-tier school plus law review. Also, in NY, Cardozo.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 09:34:23 AM
I don't think I want to work 60-70 hrs a work. I was thinking possibly working for legal divisions of companies like Citibank or JP Morgan Chase.
But those guys tend not to hire straight out of law school. They usually don't look at people who don't at least have five years of law firm experience in the area they want you to work in. Most corporations don't have large legal departments, or at least don't have large groups of specialists within their legal departments. So they can't provide the sort of training a newbie needs. Hence they externalize the training costs on law firms and hire mid-levels or senior attorneys only. Keep in mind also that the salaries for in-house jobs are more in the range of what you're making right now. They will be nowhere near what you will make at a major law firm. The in-house track is a typical route for people who burn out at big firms and want to settle for less money but more reasonable hours. If in-house is really your goal, I'd say forget it. Financially, the only difference to what you have now will be taking on an additional $120+K in debt for law school.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 16, 2007, 10:03:39 AM
But those guys tend not to hire straight out of law school. They usually don't look at people who don't at least have five years of law firm experience in the area they want you to work in. Most corporations don't have large legal departments, or at least don't have large groups of specialists within their legal departments. So they can't provide the sort of training a newbie needs. Hence they externalize the training costs on law firms and hire mid-levels or senior attorneys only. Keep in mind also that the salaries for in-house jobs are more in the range of what you're making right now. They will be nowhere near what you will make at a major law firm. The in-house track is a typical route for people who burn out at big firms and want to settle for less money but more reasonable hours. If in-house is really your goal, I'd say forget it. Financially, the only difference to what you have now will be taking on an additional $120+K in debt for law school.
So basically if you want to do patent/IP law you it's either large law firms and work 70 hrs a week or nothing ? Sh*t, I want to see my kids once in a while too !
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 10:15:45 AM
So basically if you want to do patent/IP law you it's either large law firms and work 70 hrs a week or nothing ? Sh*t, I want to see my kids once in a while too !
Well, I wouldn't put it quite so drastically. As I said, I believe the hours are better for patent lawyers at big firms as opposed to M&A, litigation and the like. Again, I am not a patent lawyer, so do your research and talk to people who do this for a living and look into firms that have more reasonable vacation and family leave policies (they do exist). I don't normally work 70 hours a week either, except at quarter end (when it can be a lot more); e.g. I billed only 185 hours in May, but 220 in June. My line of work is somewhat cyclical, so there are reasonably predictable stretches where you can expect a lesser workload.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 09:51:31 AM
Don't know...My wife makes a little over $60K so you'd think between the two of us we would be pretty good to go. We are hardly big spenders. But every month after the $2500 mortgage payment, the $200 electricity and gas bill, and all the gas and commuting costs we don't have much left over. I know, when I was 18 or 19 or 20 I though: Hell yeah: 90K would be great ! But now it's like: Uhhhh...
lol, if it's like that for you, no wonder my parents have no money for me
Quote from: greg on July 16, 2007, 10:26:06 AM
lol, if it's like that for you, no wonder my parents have no money for me
Yes, greg. The price of admission to the upper crust went up considerably long ago.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 16, 2007, 10:23:34 AM
Well, I wouldn't put it quite so drastically. As I said, I believe the hours are better for patent lawyers at big firms as opposed to M&A, litigation and the like. Again, I am not a patent lawyer, so do your research and talk to people who do this for a living and look into firms that have more reasonable vacation and family leave policies (they do exist). I don't normally work 70 hours a week either, except at quarter end (when it can be a lot more); e.g. I billed only 185 hours in May, but 220 in June. My line of work is somewhat cyclical, so there are reasonably predictable stretches where you can expect a lesser workload.
Is your take-home pay directly proportional to the number of hours you bill? Did you get paid more in June than in May?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 10:43:35 AM
Is your take-home pay directly proportional to the number of hours you bill? Did you get paid more in June than in May?
No. There is a flat base salary. Each year you may get a bonus based in part on how many hours you billed in total for the year. But if and how that is allocated varies from firm to firm (and from year to year if the firm's overall financial performance is uneven). At some firms the bonus is purely based on class level and hours, at others there may be an element of subjective evaluation by your bosses.
You billed 220 hrs in June so how many hours would you say you worked? 300? And you still have time to hang out in this forum?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 11:12:32 AM
You billed 220 hrs in June so how many hours would you say you worked? 300?
I have no idea. Certainly not that much. My worked to billable ratio is reasonably close to 1:1, but that's due to my line of work. I also sometimes might go home at a reasonable hour but will then work a few hours over the weekend from home, as we have a system that allows you to log in remotely to your workstation. But again, what I do is irrelevant. You need to talk to patent lawyers and ask them how many hours they bill.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 11:12:32 AM
And you still have time to hang out in this forum?
Not during the 200+ billable months.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 16, 2007, 11:25:13 AM
I have no idea. Certainly not that much. My worked to billable ratio is reasonably close to 1:1, but that's due to my line of work. I also sometimes might go home at a reasonable hour but will then work a few hours over the weekend from home, as we have a system that allows you to log in remotely to your workstation. But again, what I do is irrelevant. You need to talk to patent lawyers and ask them how many hours they bill.
Not during the 200+ billable months.
Thanks for all your help ! And just exactly what is your line of practice if you don't mind me asking?
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 16, 2007, 11:29:39 AM
Thanks for all your help ! And just exactly what is your line of practice if you don't mind me asking?
I do mind, because it's a fairly small community of specialists and I'd rather keep a certain level of anonimity here. But it has to do with what you see in my avatar, though that is a rather outdated example.
Quote from: O Mensch on July 16, 2007, 11:34:23 AM
I do mind, because it's a fairly small community of specialists and I'd rather keep a certain level of anonimity here. But it has to do with what you see in my avatar, though that is a rather outdated example.
No problem, thanks again !
Perhaps none of this will be useful, but I want to say a few things:
I wonder what kind of experience the navy can provide that will be useful in the future. There could be useful technical skills, like operating certain equipment or computer software -- but these skills could probably be learned in an apprentice or community college setting without the risk of being sent to a warzone.
Another thing that *might* be worth considering is that an army training and service setting can possibly be psychologically destructive for some (perhaps small group of) people.
I wonder if there aren't more options. There may be more unusual opportunities out there. Just as an example, I know of one person who was contacted and hired by a computer game company to create levels/maps for a new game, after they saw his work online -- hardly something I would've imagined as a possible career or job skill -- but it seems to be working well.
Perhaps it would be possible to find work as a tutor for high school history or art or english courses, which would help in getting experience towards a teaching career; this in addition to your current job would help save up for school...
And as was mentioned earlier, there are a lot of scolarships available -- one example being essay contests. I know at least one person who got some scholarship money this way...
Finally, is the retail job experience really a dead end? Is there maybe a chance for advancing to retail management or something else?
Someone asked what I do. I'm a biologist--a postdoctoral research fellow. I enjoy the job a great deal and get paid to do what I enjoy--specifically doing research and writing papers, giving talks at meetings, etc. I pretty much make up my own schedule and work when I want, which is often from home in the late night and early morning hours. There is minimal bullshit to deal with (in great contrast to life as a graduate student). I'm looking for a position in academia or government. One of the postdocs in our lab was very productive, had lots of high-powered publications, and it still took her five years to get the position she wanted. This is not uncommon these days. But, as I said, this is why the widely accepted notion that those with degrees earn more needs to be examined closely. Although this may be true in general, what is true in general often has little or no bearing on any given individual. If I had learned to become a car mechanic or a welder out of high school, I'd likely be making a lot more money than I am now with a Ph.D. And no one cares whether I apply myself. At this stage of the game, people only care about results.
O'Mensch, I've enjoyed reading your musings about the legal profession. At one point in graduate school, I became extremely fed-up with academia and seriously considered going to law school. I even took the LSAT (got a 161, ho hum). After considering the enormous amount of debt I'd be taking on, and talking to several law students and lawyers and hearing about the ridiculous hours, stress, and other hardships inherent in the job (especially in the first few years after graduating), I decided it was not for me. This was reinforced by having a major portion of my dissertation research accepted for publication (vindicating my theories, which are counter to much of what was done in the past), and having to opportunity to supervise undergraduate researchers, which I enjoyed a great deal. Also, I realized that I don't deal with stress all that well, and I have too many hobbies and interests to enjoy being a lawyer for very long.
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on July 17, 2007, 04:33:09 PM
O'Mensch, I've enjoyed reading your musings about the legal profession. At one point in graduate school, I became extremely fed-up with academia and seriously considered going to law school. I even took the LSAT (got a 161, ho hum). After considering the enormous amount of debt I'd be taking on, and talking to several law students and lawyers and hearing about the ridiculous hours, stress, and other hardships inherent in the job (especially in the first few years after graduating), I decided it was not for me. This was reinforced by having a major portion of my dissertation research accepted for publication (vindicating my theories, which are counter to much of what was done in the past), and having to opportunity to supervise undergraduate researchers, which I enjoyed a great deal. Also, I realized that I don't deal with stress all that well, and I have too many hobbies and interests to enjoy being a lawyer for very long.
My wife is a graduate student (getting a PhD in Comp Lit). You guys have it better, believe me. ;) I actually thought of going into academia two years ago, but someone's gotta pay for all the CDs and fine wine and the mortgage. :P
Dying for one's motherland is overrated. People are just brainwashed by the U.S government.
Quote from: Bonehelm on July 17, 2007, 10:20:31 PM
Dying for one's motherland is overrated. People are just brainwashed by the U.S government.
That must be it.
Quote from: PSmith08 on July 17, 2007, 11:45:55 PM
That must be it.
I hope you sensed that I was kidding.
Do you really need speakers? Because carrying two chunky boxes everywhere kind of defeats the purpose of having a compact, mobile laptop. I suggest that you look into sub $100 cans; some are really good sounding straight out of PCs and computers in general. You can get the AKG K81 DJ for under $90USD on ebay, for example. :)
Kullervo,
I noticed you have replaced your avatar with a much happier looking fellow. May we conclude from this that your outlook on the future has improved?
Quote from: O Mensch on July 20, 2007, 09:11:27 AM
Kullervo,
I noticed you have replaced your avatar with a much happier looking fellow. May we conclude from this that your outlook on the future has improved?
Perhaps :D
No, I just grab things I come across. My last avatar was from a book about the cross-cultural exchange of art with the West and Japan, but Felix is much nicer :)