By which I mean of course Adam's Nixon in China, finished '87 and very much the last masterpiece in the evanescence of artistic expression.
The age of art is over and as you already well know there's not going to be any more. Most of the crazies posting here had at least the benefits of living through its high period of dissemination but needless to say 2013 is as decadent, irrelevant and as worthless a cultural existence as history has spewed up.
Rhetoric aside I'd be pleased to hear of any works, plus indeed even any performances, in the last quarter century that you genuinely feel are any kind of match for the great works of previous decades and centuries. Naturally I'm not expecting a long thread here, no worries.
A opening gesture is Glass's 1990 The Voyage, a second rate opera with fascinating holistically structured music and libretto; at least it was lyrical.
Do kindly give me your worst to have a good laugh at from Saariaho, Lachenmann, Carter, Birtwistle- who's an interesting figure but little more...
1985??? As though you suggest that the "music" of the two hundred years before that could in any way be considered "art"? Already with Beethoven we have left the domain of art and entered the domain of cacophonous bluster and bombast and the blatant sexualisation of music with wanton chromaticism and impure harmonies. The "Romantics" and "Moderns" alike had no care for art, only their own sensual gratification. I challenge you to provide me with a single example of art music after Mozart's Piano Concerto KV 595. All the Webers, Chopins, Schuberts, Wagners, Bruckners, Stravinskys and Ravels put together couldn't write a note of it.
dyn
Your idea is that the present postmodern post-everything non-existent total mush is comparable to other historical periods- it isn't at all. As for sexualization, noticing the American spellchecker doesn't like the COD z, the visceral is the very nature of music and art, preceding the intellect in the mind- art is abstracted sexuality.
So Mozart PC27 is as good as it got for you?, the Clarinet concerto succeeded it by the way. Admit it, you have no more answers than me.
You're a woman aren't you?
Quote from: dyn on June 11, 2013, 05:06:59 AM
1985??? As though you suggest that the "music" of the two hundred years before that could in any way be considered "art"? Already with Beethoven we have left the domain of art and entered the domain of cacophonous bluster and bombast and the blatant sexualisation of music with wanton chromaticism and impure harmonies. The "Romantics" and "Moderns" alike had no care for art, only their own sensual gratification. I challenge you to provide me with a single example of art music after Mozart's Piano Concerto KV 595. All the Webers, Chopins, Schuberts, Wagners, Bruckners, Stravinskys and Ravels put together couldn't write a note of it.
I also thought that this was a given...
8)
Art was a response to alienation in life. Now we've lost art, but alienation is absolutely worse than ever with psychotic 'communication technology' barriers to communication. This is a nasty, precipitous situation.
I was trying to locate a copy of Nixon in China to purchase. But having trouble locating the Art Music section. Should I try the classical music section?
No, don't worry, you missed the boat and there are no such categories any more. Just carry on as if nothing happened and you'll be just fine. You're not alive but neither is anyone else so all's well. Best, Sean
Quote from: dyn on June 11, 2013, 05:06:59 AM
1985??? As though you suggest that the "music" of the two hundred years before that could in any way be considered "art"? Already with Beethoven we have left the domain of art and entered the domain of cacophonous bluster and bombast and the blatant sexualisation of music with wanton chromaticism and impure harmonies. The "Romantics" and "Moderns" alike had no care for art, only their own sensual gratification. I challenge you to provide me with a single example of art music after Mozart's Piano Concerto KV 595. All the Webers, Chopins, Schuberts, Wagners, Bruckners, Stravinskys and Ravels put together couldn't write a note of it.
Man, I was gonna reply, but this post is way more awesome than anything I could come up with.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2013, 05:22:07 AM
I also thought that this was a given...
8)
;D
Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2013, 06:01:59 AM
Man, I was gonna reply, but this post is way more awesome than anything I could come up with.
;D Ditto.
--Bruce
Quote from: Sean on June 11, 2013, 05:18:17 AM
Your idea is that the present postmodern post-everything non-existent total mush is comparable to other historical periods- it isn't at all.
By the time one reaches a such state of cultural decadence that
Tristan und Isolde is taken seriously as a "work of art" rather than banned as aural obscenity, society has reached rock bottom and started to dig. It's only a small step from there to complete atonality, legalised prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority.
Quote
As for sexualization, noticing the American spellchecker doesn't like the COD z, the visceral is the very nature of music and art, preceding the intellect in the mind- art is abstracted sexuality.
A common excuse from so-called "Romantics" and their cult of "sexual liberation". Keep that kind of "art" in the bedroom where it belongs.
Quote
So Mozart PC27 is as good as it got for you?, the Clarinet concerto succeeded it by the way.
You're a woman aren't you?
I bring up Mozart as a counterpoint to those who rightly point out that the music of Bach and his followers is full of unkempt chromaticisms and dissonances, and that therefore one should consider the age of art in music to have ended with Palestrina: the Enlightenment was the final flowering of art. Bach can be excused his licenses for they were committed in the name of true religion, of which he was among the last practitioners (modern religion is as undeserving of the name as modern art). Had the Enlightenment lasted, and not been displaced by Romanticism and its male-dominated worldview, I imagine women's suffrage would have been universal by 1825.
Some GMG members should be mentioned here:
Karl Henning's Nuhro, Out in the Sun, Sonata for Viola and Piano, Annabel Lee all come to mind.
Luke Ottevanger's piano works e.g. Around Fern Hill would also come under this topic.
Paul Nauert's Episodes and Elegies.
And where have Luke and Paul been recently?!
Elliott Carter's Symphonia Sum Fluxae Pretium Spei
And the final version from 1993 of explosante fixe by Pierre Boulez.
One should also mention that Karlheinz Stockhausen was quite active in the era given! 0:)
Is this a comedy thread, or what?! ;D :P
Quote from: jochanaan on June 11, 2013, 07:50:30 AM
Is this a comedy thread, or what?! ;D :P
Sean is the King of Comedy. Glad he's back, life is much more entertaining now. :)
8)
Well, okay, if we're just gonna list some great art music since 1985...
Penderecki's Sextet for clarinet, horn, violin, viola, cello, and piano
Penderecki's Horn Concerto
Adams's Harmonielehre
Glass's Symphony No. 3
Auerbach's Twenty-four preludes for cello and piano
Lutoslawski's Piano Concerto
Dorman's Mandolin Concerto
G.L. Frank's Leyendas
Higdon's Quintet for piano left-hand and strings
A. Koppel's Saxophone Concerto no. 2
Quote from: dyn on June 11, 2013, 06:27:20 AM
By the time one reaches a such state of cultural decadence that Tristan und Isolde is taken seriously as a "work of art" rather than banned as aural obscenity, society has reached rock bottom and started to dig. It's only a small step from there to complete atonality, legalised prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority.
A common excuse from so-called "Romantics" and their cult of "sexual liberation". Keep that kind of "art" in the bedroom where it belongs.
I bring up Mozart as a counterpoint to those who rightly point out that the music of Bach and his followers is full of unkempt chromaticisms and dissonances, and that therefore one should consider the age of art in music to have ended with Palestrina: the Enlightenment was the final flowering of art. Bach can be excused his licenses for they were committed in the name of true religion, of which he was among the last practitioners (modern religion is as undeserving of the name as modern art). Had the Enlightenment lasted, and not been displaced by Romanticism and its male-dominated worldview, I imagine women's suffrage would have been universal by 1825.
Wolfy's music isn't Sessy?? :-[ ;) Naughty boy!!
I'll agree with you about all that Devil Music. Perhaps, then, the greatest example of the Devil's Music could perhaps be Babbitt's String Quartet's 3-4? Serial in every way. Conformist to the Ideology of Musical Atheism?
What of
WEBERN then? Is he 'Resurrection' from the 'Grave' that Wagner took every one? Or just Music of the Living Dead?
I mean, we're still not all agreed that Mozart even existed...
Quote from: jochanaan on June 11, 2013, 07:50:30 AM
Is this a comedy thread, or what?! ;D :P
Since we've apparently lost art, comedy is all we've got.
Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2013, 09:09:40 AM
Wolfy's music isn't Sessy?? :-[ ;) Naughty boy!!
Girl, snyprr, girl. Pay attention! She's a she.
Sarge
Quote from: MishaK on June 11, 2013, 09:12:37 AM
Since we've apparently lost art, comedy is all we've got.
:D ;D :D
Sarge
Quote from: MishaK on June 11, 2013, 09:12:37 AM
Since we've apparently lost art, comedy is all we've got.
Comedy is Art also!
e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Pp8y62pn1PE
Quote from: Sean on June 11, 2013, 04:27:15 AMThe age of art is over and as you already well know there's not going to be any more.
Well, for sure the age of argument is over. And the only things left are unsupported assertions and quarrelling. (Oh, and comedy.)
I prefer Morton Feldman's take on it: Down with masterpieces; up with art.
Now there's a pithy statement with real pith to it.
As for dyn's "legalised prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority"--not too up on history there are we? Legalized prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority have been around for thousands of years. Maybe more. At least as long as there's been history, there's been legal prostitution and the idea that authority is completely broken down. (I don't know if ancient Sumeria or Assyria or China or Greece had anything like "atonal" music. ::) )
Quote from: Cato on June 11, 2013, 10:15:30 AM
Comedy is Art also!
e.g.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Pp8y62pn1PE
As a golfer myself (more than slightly better than Jackie appears to be here) I can relate to that so much it hurts. However, I note that it is pre-1985, so Sean appears to still be on solid footing still. :)
8)
Quote from: some guy on June 11, 2013, 10:33:01 AM
As for dyn's "legalised prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority"--not too up on history there are we? Legalized prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority have been around for thousands of years. Maybe more. At least as long as there's been history, there's been legal prostitution and the idea that authority is completely broken down. (I don't know if ancient Sumeria or Assyria or China or Greece had anything like "atonal" music. ::) )
Sounds like you need to replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector. ;)
Hahahaha.
Done!
Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2013, 10:46:37 AMSounds like you need to replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector.
A sarcasm detector would be very useful.
Maybe someone is auctioning one off cheap on Ebay . . . .
Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2013, 11:39:38 AM
Maybe someone is auctioning one off cheap on Ebay . . . .
BEEP - BEEP - BEEEeeepp..... :)
8)
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2013, 11:31:57 AM
A sarcasm detector would be very useful.
Dang, it overheated. :-\
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2013, 11:31:57 AM
A sarcasm detector would be very useful.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I vote that the best post ever.
You may want to buy one of these. Or you may not. What do I know.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2029497_2030615_2029717,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2029497_2030615_2029717,00.html)
Quote from: jut1972 on June 11, 2013, 01:51:59 PMhttp://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2029497_2030615_2029717,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2029497_2030615_2029717,00.html)
What if such powerful software falls into the wrong hands?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 11, 2013, 09:35:28 AM
Girl, snyprr, girl. Pay attention! She's a she.
Sarge
So I HAVE lost the scent?!?! :'( :laugh: :'( aye aye
I look at it this way:
In the '50s, Elvis shaking his hips was horrible.
In the '70s, the Stones' 'Star Fucker' was the worst.
THEN IT'S THE SEX PISTOLS(oops) Gangsta Rap, and the Boy Bands,... er
Right now, there hasn't been any Rock Music in years, so, Country Music has been using Rock's Bass+Drums for the last few years = Nickleback with Kenny Neckie singing Gyuk gyuk gyuk.
Yes, the Age of Art is waaay over. We're living in a perpetually rehashed 1966. There is certainly nothing new under the sun.
Consumerism... Gorecki... Kronos... 1993... Nigel Kennedy... 1984...
btw- i'd say Aperghis is doing the Art Music of the day. Yes.
Quote from: James on June 11, 2013, 01:28:56 PM
Feldman got it all wrong .. masterpieces elevate the art UP and show what is possible amoungst the overwhelming effluent.
You know they're not going to like!! ;)
But, since this is a Comedy Thread, what's funny? Are farts still funny? Is Woody Allen funny? Really? Arrested Development is 'funny'?, not JUST 'sarcastic'?
Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor. No one gets hurt in my jokes. I try to find jokes that have, say, 'broccoli' as the punchline, or whatever.
zzzZZzz... uh, sorry...
dynQuoteBy the time one reaches a such state of cultural decadence that Tristan und Isolde is taken seriously as a "work of art" rather than banned as aural obscenity, society has reached rock bottom and started to dig. It's only a small step from there to complete atonality, legalised prostitution and the complete breakdown of authority.
Well there might well be something in the relation between post-tonality and postmodern nihilism but this sociology of music stuff can go too far- tonality is the fixed infrastructure of any music that can be intelligible to us, not a historically situated cultural product as those horrible, horrible music academics would have it, none of whom of course are familiar with any art music and literally don't know what they're talking about.
QuoteI bring up Mozart as a counterpoint to those who rightly point out that the music of Bach and his followers is full of unkempt chromaticisms and dissonances, and that therefore one should consider the age of art in music to have ended with Palestrina: the Enlightenment was the final flowering of art. Bach can be excused his licenses for they were committed in the name of true religion, of which he was among the last practitioners (modern religion is as undeserving of the name as modern art).
Okay, I can see we're almost in agreement but the understanding of tonality here is far too narrow- it doesn't have to be classical order and balance, it just has to respect acoustic consonance and dissonance: tonality is that unique harmonic system with the highest levels of correspondence between subjective sensation and acoustic fact. In tonality and acoustics the minor second is the most dissonant and the octave the most consonant, etc etc. But no more tonality talk- it's been done to death...
QuoteHad the Enlightenment lasted, and not been displaced by Romanticism and its male-dominated worldview, I imagine women's suffrage would have been universal by 1825.
Nice thought.
Cato, thanks for the suggestions but although all those works have undoubted merit I feel that both contemporary technical and cultural conditions make it difficult to write meaningful music to compare with the past, and really we're just charting the decline here.
Yeah, and one critic compared Mozart unfavorably to Boccherini--since Boccherini had already done everything that was worth doing, it was left to Mozart to try to plow the rocky soil. Or something like that.
Certainly the level of art criticism online is low low low, with nothing much different from what has been said over and over again for hundreds of years.
Pretty soon someone's gonna assert that it's been downhill since creation or the big bang.
Be fair, once that big bang is over, it's pretty much over. Nothin' to see here, folks. Move along.
GurnQuoteSean is the King of Comedy.
Don't you laugh at me!!
(http://www.thecourier.es/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/monty-python-s-life-of-brian-originalfdadf.jpg)
The point about tonality though is that it's exhausted- all the major areas of its expressive are done and dusted and there's been nothing much for the last quarter century. Minimalism was the last gasp.
How does it feel to be trolled, Sean? :P
Thanks for the honesty Brian; I only know the Penderecki and Glass but as with others' suggestions my point is rather proved with that list...
snyrrr & Sarge somehow dyn forgets how shocked the romantics were by Cosi and its moral corruption...
jut1972 your link is banned over here in red China so I can only guess at how subversive and egregious it must be.
You lot have made a tidy mess of the topic but at least you sum up post-1985 music as one big joke.
Well, let's slow down a little and really think about what we're saying.
I've seen, to start with, many discussions of greatness, and after all the chaff has blown away, the little bit of wheat left over seems to be that greatness as an inherent quality is a troublesome concept. Mostly, people seem, grudgingly it's true, to admit that greatness is something conferred--by the best (!) minds, of course. That greatness is a consensus.
If that's so, then greatness takes a bit of time. (That's what really behind the silly phrase "the test of time." Not that time tests anything, but to get that consensus does take a little time. And whether one still wants to think that greatness is inherent, it still takes a bit of time for everyone to agree.)
Anyway, if greatness is consensus, which takes a bit of time to develop, then asking what the greatest anything of recent times is is to be at best a trifle disingenuous.
Time passes. Things change. Among them, perspective. What things look like up close, in the present, is quite different from what things look like after some time has passed. After people have done some looking and some listening and some reading. After certain things, by no means all bad, have passed away. After certain other things, by no means all good, have survived. To compare the present to the past, which is after all what "the greatest art music since 1985" implies, is to make a false comparison. Because of that perspective thing.
To claim that art is dead, that nothing (much) good has been done in recent years is to draw a false and a damaging conclusion from something quite simple and neutral--perspective. Of course recent art is going to look frightful or stupid or clumsy or scary or decadent next to the older stuff that we're familiar with. The stuff that's now comfortable. The stuff that no longer irritates, that no longer exemplifies decay and decline.
Despite everything said so far, I'm totally in agreement with Sean's opinion - not explicitly stated, but clearly implied in his choice of cut-off date - that 1984 was quite a year, giving us Glass's Akhnaten, Birtwistle's Secret Theatre, Maxwell Davies's 3rd symphony (perhaps the greatest British symphony of all time) and Messiaen's Livre du Saint Sacrement. And that's merely a small selection of the towering masterpieces composed in that terminal year, which also include Lutosławski's Chain 2, Berio's Un re in ascolto, Takemitsu's Riverrun, Hallgrímsson's Poemi and Qu Xiaosong's Mong Dong. Well, if Western art music had to come to an end (as all good things must), what a way to sign off!
DF
Quote from: DaveF on June 11, 2013, 11:57:37 PM
Maxwell Davies's 3rd symphony (perhaps the greatest British symphony of all time)
That's a huge statement Dave ;D I don't know the work but just had to place it on order after such a hearty recommendation! I like the quartets I've heard of P.M.D. so hoping this symphony will be a major find. Should be here by the weekend. 8)
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 12, 2013, 12:11:34 AM
That's a huge statement Dave ;D I don't know the work but just had to place it on order after such a hearty recommendation! I like the quartets I've heard of P.M.D. so hoping this symphony will be a major find. Should be here by the weekend. 8)
I was just going to ask about any recommended recording. Is it available on Naxos?
Quote from: The new erato on June 12, 2013, 12:19:10 AM
I was just going to ask about any recommended recording. Is it available on Naxos?
Yes, that's the one I've just ordered.
[asin]B0085AXUWW[/asin]
Mark Jordan, Rob Lea and the BBC Philharmonic. Picked it up for £3.50 delivered.
Will put that up for ordering as soon as I'm back from this summers vacation. Looking forward to comments on this board in the meantime.
I didn't intend to turn this into a Max thread, but if either of you can get hold of the old Ted Downes recording of no.3, it is, IMHO, far superior, indifferent sound quality notwithstanding - just as the other non-Max-conducted symphony recording, Rattle's 1st, is better than the composer's.
Quote from: Sean on June 11, 2013, 08:40:33 PM
Gurn
Don't you laugh at me!!
(http://www.thecourier.es/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/monty-python-s-life-of-brian-originalfdadf.jpg)
Oops, sorry, Biggus.... :o
8)
Quote from: Sean on June 11, 2013, 10:13:03 PM
snyrrr & Sarge somehow dyn forgets how shocked the romantics were by Cosi and its moral corruption...
Not just
Cosi, but even more
Don Giovanni. I absolutely love that concept, that those silly bastards of the 19th century (including Beethoven, who was pretty silly in anything that involved other than writing music) were truly shocked by something Mozart and Da Ponte took for granted. I'm
still delighted by that. :)
8)
Wuorinen's Fourth Piano Concerto (premièred by Peter Serkin 23-26 March 2005 in Boston's Symphony Hall) is one of the very best new pieces I have heard this century.
David Lang's Little Match Girl Passion.
John Adams' Harmonielehre.
Einojuhani Rautavaara's Symphony No.7 'Angel of Light'.
Quote from: dyn on June 11, 2013, 05:06:59 AM
1985??? As though you suggest that the "music" of the two hundred years before that could in any way be considered "art"? Already with Beethoven we have left the domain of art and entered the domain of cacophonous bluster and bombast and the blatant sexualisation of music with wanton chromaticism and impure harmonies. The "Romantics" and "Moderns" alike had no care for art, only their own sensual gratification. I challenge you to provide me with a single example of art music after Mozart's Piano Concerto KV 595. All the Webers, Chopins, Schuberts, Wagners, Bruckners, Stravinskys and Ravels put together couldn't write a note of it.
Oh dear me.........<sigh> a music world without late Beethoven, Liszt, Chopin, Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner and Richard Strauss is just not worth living in........oh dear, oh dear, oh dear......................
marvin
Quote from: marvinbrown on June 12, 2013, 05:56:43 AM
Oh dear me.........<sigh> a music world without late Beethoven, Liszt, Chopin, Brahms, Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner and Richard Strauss is just not worth living in........oh dear, oh dear, oh dear......................
marvin
Oh, Marvin . . .Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2013, 10:46:37 AM
Sounds like you need to replace the batteries in your sarcasm detector. ;)
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2013, 06:11:13 AM
Oh, Marvin . . .
my sarcasm detector runs on mains power and has blown a fuse.......
marvin
You want to be careful about that! Wagner had a near-fatal humorectomy, you know . . . .
Philip Grange (studied with Maxwell Davies), completed a large-scale orchestral piece entitled Eclipsing in 2004. I attended the concert premiere commissioned by the BBC at the Bridgewater Hall, Manchester. The BBC Philharmonic under Vassily Sinaisky. A truly wonderful half hour of planetary twists and turns.
One of those works which will probably never be heard by many people, can't see it being recorded, unless the BBC Mag issue it on their cd....lots of compositions go this way, which is really sad.
I never set out to hear this work as it was a filler to Mahler's 1st and IIRC Aimard performing Mozart's P/C No.9. The Grange work was every bit as enjoyable. Come to think of it, Mozart, Mahler, Grange is a funny old line up. Glad I was there.
Cheers, Tony! Can't help remembering Zappa's quip, "The program says World Première, but it really means Final Performance."
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2013, 04:59:17 AM
Wuorinen's Fourth Piano Concerto (premièred by Peter Serkin 23-26 March 2005 in Boston's Symphony Hall) is one of the very best new pieces I have heard this century.
Ooooh, thanks for the recommendation! ;D Is there a recording?
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2013, 06:45:10 AM
Cheers, Tony! Can't help remembering Zappa's quip, "The program says World Première, but it really means Final Performance."
That's a great quote, sadly true :'(
Quote from: jochanaan on June 12, 2013, 06:51:09 AM
Ooooh, thanks for the recommendation! ;D Is there a recording?
None official, alas!
Here are some works I'd include in the greatest written since 1985, along with some of the others suggested, e.g., Wuorinen, Lang. Listed in chronological order (yes, I fudged the date slightly for the first few):
Karlheinz Stockhausen: Licht (1977-2003)
Pierre Boulez: Répons (1984)
György Ligeti: Piano Etudes (1985-2001)
Wolfgang Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1985-2001)
György Kurtág: Stele (1994)
Gérard Grisey: Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1997-1998)
Fausto Romitelli: Professor Bad Trip (1998-2000)
Georg Friedrich Haas: in vain (2000-2002)
Helmut Lachenmann: String Quartet No. 3, "Grido" (2001)
Beat Furrer: FAMA (2004-2005)
Hans Abrahamsen: Schnee (2006-2008)
--Bruce
Quote from: some guy on June 11, 2013, 11:19:52 PM
Well, let's slow down a little and really think about what we're saying.
Or not. ::)
OK, then. Let's just keep listing all the nice pieces since 1985 (and pieces from 1984, Brewski, are not since 1985) that we like. And play into the hands of the Luddites by carrying on any discussion using their terms. Yes, that should work.
Because, after all, Sean and his disciples notwithstanding, art continues to be made and will continue to be made world without end amen. It's what we humans do.
Quote from: some guy on June 12, 2013, 09:47:20 AM
...art continues to be made and will continue to be made world without end amen. It's what we humans do.
Indeed. It's part of the human spirit.
Another great one is Messiaen's
Éclairs sur l'au-delà, first played in 1992.
I also like Elliott Carter's opera What Next?
Quote from: some guy on June 12, 2013, 09:47:20 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on June 12, 2013, 09:49:25 AM
Indeed. It's part of the human spirit.
. . . Because, after all, Sean and his disciples notwithstanding, art continues to be made and will continue to be made world without end amen. It's what we humans do.
The mystery to me is the occasional fatuous impulse to pontificate that Art Is supposedly Dead.
And then that the "last great work of art" is something so arguably superficial and gaudy as . . . Nixon in China?
Oh: superficial and gaudy. Did i just chance upon the Key to Sean? . . .
Quote from: some guy on June 12, 2013, 09:47:20 AMBecause, after all, Sean and his disciples notwithstanding, art continues to be made and will continue to be made world without end amen. It's what we humans do.
True. Don't these "all new stuff sucks" types of threads pop up from time to time? And the result is the same: those who cling to such silly ideas remain unconvinced, and those who like such music will continue to like such music. I mean, with works by Carter and Schnittke, Dutilleux and Lutoslawski, and the like out there, the assertion that there is no more good or great music is as patently absurd as saying the sky is plaid.
On the DVD of Andrei Rublev, movie director Andrei Tarkovsky comments that art is the response to Life not being perfect.
That is an idea which has been stated before in other ways, but which remains true.
Certainly it is not the only definition for the artistic impulse, but is a good one!
So unless Life has somehow become perfect in the last decades... 0:)
Not sure if this qualifies, but . . . when it was noticed that Sean had returned to GMG, someone was heard to mutter, "Perfect."
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2013, 10:03:59 AM...with works by Carter and Schnittke, Dutilleux and Lutoslawski, and the like out there, the assertion that there is no more good or great music is as patently absurd as saying the sky is plaid.
Or falling!
Quote from: Brewski on June 12, 2013, 07:39:36 AM
Here are some works I'd include in the greatest written since 1985, along with some of the others suggested, e.g., Wuorinen, Lang. Listed in chronological order (yes, I fudged the date slightly for the first few):
Karlheinz Stockhausen: Licht (1977-2003)
Pierre Boulez: Répons (1984)
György Ligeti: Piano Etudes (1985-2001)
Wolfgang Rihm: Jagden und Formen (1985-2001)
György Kurtág: Stele (1994)
Gérard Grisey: Quatre chants pour franchir le seuil (1997-1998)
Fausto Romitelli: Professor Bad Trip (1998-2000)
Georg Friedrich Haas: in vain (2000-2002)
Helmut Lachenmann: String Quartet No. 3, "Grido" (2001)
Beat Furrer: FAMA (2004-2005)
Hans Abrahamsen: Schnee (2006-2008)
--Bruce
Great list!
Is De Staat composed after 1985? I'd add that one as well, not to mention a few Carter works mentioned earlier.
Quote from: PaulSC on June 12, 2013, 10:34:42 AM
Or falling!
Well, Sean is the forum expert on that topic.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/febgmc/SeanTheEndIsNear.jpg)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2013, 10:39:17 AM
Well, Sean is the forum expert on that topic.
(* chortle *)
Actually, I liked the Chicken Little movie! It had some funny stuff! :o
Here is a list from WQXR of the top 10 operas of the early 21st century:
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/operavore/2011/oct/17/top-10-operas-written-last-10-years/ (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/operavore/2011/oct/17/top-10-operas-written-last-10-years/)
YouTube has what seems to be an entire recording of #3: Lost Highway by Olga Neuwirth via David Lynch.
http://www.youtube.com/v/BEohnostKao
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
Great list!
Thanks, Paul - a very personal one, of course, and there are many more. Personally I think the last few decades have produced some magnificent pieces, many of which can stand beside the greats of other eras. Granted, for new pieces, we don't have the benefit of hundreds of years of performance history for any of them.
Quote from: Cato on June 12, 2013, 11:30:52 AM
Here is a list from WQXR of the top 10 operas of the early 21st century:
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/operavore/2011/oct/17/top-10-operas-written-last-10-years/ (http://www.wqxr.org/#!/blogs/operavore/2011/oct/17/top-10-operas-written-last-10-years/)
Nice to see the
Neuwirth Lost Highway mentioned. I saw it here in a good (not great) production, but there were enough high points, even so. And certainly some of the others on the list, like
Birtwistle's
The Minotaur (have seen the DVD) are worthy candidates.
--Bruce
Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2013, 10:32:57 AM
Not sure if this qualifies, but . . . when it was noticed that Sean had returned to GMG, someone was heard to mutter, "Perfect."
Well, that was artistically muttered, though... :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2013, 04:06:25 AM
Oops, sorry, Biggus.... :o
8)
I rank higher than any, I'll have you know.
Hi some guy
I don't agree that greatness is a consensus or any matter of relativity and I side entirely with the traditional views of aesthetics that though subjectively experienced it's universalizable; differences of view can always be explained away. I've read your thoughts on establishing a perspective and time needed to compare with the past, and they're incorrect; I appreciate your clear writing however. For now perhaps we can agree to disagree as the discussion has been well worked over, as you know.
DaveFThanks for that Dave. Firstly I haven't heard MD's
Third mentioned for a long long time, an extraordinary and indeed unique masterpiece. It was among the first more modern works I ever got to know, a CD I bought about 1986, I think the same recording under the composer though not entirely sure now.
The harmonic planning across this large and imposing construction is remarkable and I can't think of anything else like it in British music; there's this lurching character to much of the music to which seascape imagery was later attached but this is a towering piece of ruthless abstraction. I'm going to hear the Naxos reissue later today.
Just one other thought, you didn't mention Messiaen's opera, I think finished 1983- it comes to mind in connection with the MD symphony actually for its long-term explorations using these similar richly filled out short repeating motives.
Some of the other works you list I see as among music's valedictory little cul-de-sacs that composers have had a wonder down and back from; there are only ruins to rummaging through now.
QuoteDespite everything said so far, I'm totally in agreement with Sean's opinion - not explicitly stated, but clearly implied in his choice of cut-off date - that 1984 was quite a year, giving us Glass's Akhnaten, Birtwistle's Secret Theatre, Maxwell Davies's 3rd symphony (perhaps the greatest British symphony of all time) and Messiaen's Livre du Saint Sacrement. And that's merely a small selection of the towering masterpieces composed in that terminal year, which also include Lutosławski's Chain 2, Berio's Un re in ascolto, Takemitsu's Riverrun, Hallgrímsson's Poemi and Qu Xiaosong's Mong Dong. Well, if Western art music had to come to an end (as all good things must), what a way to sign off!
DF
[/quote]
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 12, 2013, 12:11:34 AM
That's a huge statement Dave ;D I don't know the work but just had to place it on order after such a hearty recommendation! I like the quartets I've heard of P.M.D. so hoping this symphony will be a major find. Should be here by the weekend. 8)
MD's more recent music has far more head than heart, providing some uselessly complicated tangles; maybe someone should start or resurrect an appropriate thread though.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on June 12, 2013, 06:39:19 AM
Philip Grange (studied with Maxwell Davies), completed a large-scale orchestral piece entitled Eclipsing in 2004. I attended the concert premiere commissioned by the BBC at the Bridgewater Hall, Manchester. The BBC Philharmonic under Vassily Sinaisky. A truly wonderful half hour of planetary twists and turns.
I know this work. Can't remember if it was a CD or a recording I made from a broadcast but I remember it as a lot more episodic than the MD symphony. As with other works people have mentioned here it really does chart the decline, but no pillow fights.
Brewski, James, jochanaan, Karl et al you mention many works I've explored seriously but I really do think they prove my point. These are indeed the best we have but they're not great music.
Have a think about 1885-1913 and its colossal achievements, many indeed standing near the heart of our civilization and what it'll be remembered for, that your pitiful offerings have to compare with. Here's a conservative list I've put together.
Mahler
Faure
Debussy
Puccini
Janacek
Scriabin
Rimsky-Korsakov
Massenet
Mussorgsky
Saint-Saens
Bruch
Sibelius
Sullivan
J.Strauss
Late Brahms
Late Dvorak
Late Bruckner
Late Verdi
Late Tchaikovsky
Late Grieg
Mid Elgar
Mid Delius
Mid Holst
Mid Ravel
Early Strauss
Early Schoenberg
Early Vaughan Williams
Early Bartok
Early Stravinsky
Early Bax
What these figures stand for is so titanic and enormous, while we're scratching around with obscure bits of aural fluff and academia, there is no beginning to deny what I'm saying here.
Best, Sean
But I do begin to deny it, Sean. Whatever you may say about late Messiaen, Carter or Glass, they've written a lot of stuff that's much deeper than "aural fluff."
Quote from: Sean on June 12, 2013, 07:56:14 PMWhat these figures stand for is so titanic and enormous, while we're scratching around with obscure bits of aural fluff and academia, there is no beginning to deny what I'm saying here.
This reminds me of something.
Boccherini, yeah. That's the guy that was so titanic and enormous, while Mozart was scratching around.
Then a few years later, Mozart and Haydn were titanic and enormous, while Beethoven was scratching around.
Then it was Berlioz' turn. Beethoven was so titanic and enormous, et cetera.
Remember when Verdi and Wagner were titanic and enormous while pikers like Mahler were scratching around? Yeah. That's the good stuff.
Be nice if the "hell in a handbasket" brigade could come up with a new complaint. One that would actually last past a generation or two. How, when an idea has been shown to be ludicrous over and over again, does it still have that certain charm for some people?
For certain minds, the present always looks paltry next to the titanic and enormous achievements of the past. Which were, when they were present, seen by that type of mind as paltry next to the titanic and enormous achievements of that present's past.
I guess the titanic and enormous are too big too see from up close, eh? Let some time pass. Get some distance from them. Then, suddenly, "Hey, look!! Those trifling bits of aural fluff are titanic and enormous."
Go figure.
Quote from: Sean on June 12, 2013, 07:31:43 PM
I know this work. Can't remember if it was a CD or a recording I made from a broadcast but I remember it as a lot more episodic than the MD symphony. As with other works people have mentioned here it really does chart the decline, but no pillow fights.
Probably a recording you made Sean. The concert IIRC was on a Thursday evening and BBC Radio 3 broadcast it 'as was' Grange/Mozart/Mahler the following Saturday. I too recorded it on good old cassette which long since perished. Didn't have software at the time to rip to cd from tape. :(
Quote from: James on June 13, 2013, 03:03:09 AM
Against my better judgement ..
The 2nd half of the 20th century was a period of renewal ("Everything must change so that everything can remain the same") .. here is a listing of some of the composers active in the 2nd half, a few big beasts lurking within .. but as history shows us repeatedly, we always looks back as we move forward ,, and surely at the very least a small canon of fabulous (even essential) works can be tallied up that define this era/period of classical music's history.
Igor Stravinsky 1882 -1971
Aaron Copland 1900–1990
Joaquín Rodrigo 1901–1999
William Walton 1902–1983
Maurice Duruflé 1902–1983
Luigi Dallapiccola 1904–1975
Karl Amadeus Hartmann 1905–1963
Giacinto Scelsi 1905–1988
Michael Tippett 1905–1998
Elisabeth Lutyens 1906–1983
Dmitri Shostakovich 1906–1975
Elizabeth Maconchy 1907–1990
Elliott Carter 1908–2012
Olivier Messiaen 1908–1992
Grażyna Bacewicz 1909–1967
Samuel Barber 1910–1981
John Cage 1912–1992
Conlon Nancarrow 1912–1997
Benjamin Britten 1913–1976
Witold Lutosławski 1913–1994
Henri Dutilleux 1916–
Leonard Bernstein 1918–1990
Malcolm Arnold 1921–2006
Iannis Xenakis 1922–2001
György Ligeti 1923–2006
Luigi Nono 1924–1990
Luciano Berio 1925–2003
Pierre Boulez 1925–
Morton Feldman 1926–1987
Hans Werner Henze 1926–2012
György Kurtág 1926–
Franco Donatoni 1927-2000
Einojuhani Rautavaara 1928–
Karlheinz Stockhausen 1928–2007
Toru Takemitsu 1930–1996
Sofia Gubaidulina 1931–
Mauricio Kagel 1931–2008
Henryk Górecki 1933–2010
Krzysztof Penderecki 1933–
Harrison Birtwistle 1934–
Peter Maxwell Davies 1934–
Alfred Schnittke 1934–1998
Nicholas Maw 1935–2009
Arvo Pärt 1935–
Helmut Lachenmann 1935–
Steve Reich 1936–
Philip Glass 1937–
Louis Andriessen 1939–
Jonathan Harvey 1939–2012
Michael Nyman 1944–
John Tavener 1944–
York Höller 1944-
Peter Lieberson 1944-2011
John Adams 1947–
Tristan Murail 1947–
Poul Ruders 1949–
Alejandro Viñao 1951-
Wolfgang Rihm 1952–
Kaija Saariaho 1952–
Oliver Knussen 1952–
Judith Weir 1954–
Magnus Lindberg 1958–
Esa-Pekka Salonen 1958-
James MacMillan 1959–
Sebastian Currier 1959-
George Benjamin 1960–
Mark-Anthony Turnage 1960–
Michael Torke 1961–
Unsuk Chin 1961-
Brett Dean 1961-
Julian Anderson 1967-
Thomas Adès 1971–
Matthias Pintscher 1971-
I have some bad news for you, James.
Multiple pages... Not a troll's folly at all.
Quote from: Sean on June 12, 2013, 07:56:14 PM
Brewski, James, jochanaan, Karl et al you mention many works I've explored seriously....
No you haven't....
Two musicians were walking in the Alps. One of them complained about the new generation of musicians. As they crossed a bridge, the other turned, pointed to the ripples in the water below them, and asked, "Which is the last?"
The musicians: Johannes Brahms and Gustav Mahler. ;D
Quote from: sanantonio on June 13, 2013, 04:40:17 AM
Most of the time there is little point engaging with them; occasionally this claim is made by someone who really wishes to be shown what they are missing. But in this case, I agree with James, this thread is a troll's folly.
Yes, I agree, since it's apparent that the original poster has already decided the outcome of any "discussion."
Quote from: jochanaan on June 13, 2013, 08:52:07 AM
Two musicians were walking in the Alps. One of them complained about the new generation of musicians. As they crossed a bridge, the other turned, pointed to the ripples in the water below them, and asked, "Which is the last?"
The musicians: Johannes Brahms and Gustav Mahler. ;D
Thanks, that's a great snapshot - never heard it before - and quite makes the point. 8)
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on June 13, 2013, 09:14:45 AM
Thanks, that's a great snapshot - never heard it before - and quite makes the point. 8)
And: there's no question who was who in the exchange >:D
When I think about the importance of taking time to forming an informed view I always think of the cover of NME which proclaimed the Boo Radleys as the new Beatles.
Well, and weren't they? 0:)
Quote from: jochanaan on June 12, 2013, 08:42:59 PM
But I do begin to deny it, Sean. Whatever you may say about late Messiaen, Carter or Glass, they've written a lot of stuff that's much deeper than "aural fluff."
Not since the mid-80s, not a lot anyway.
some guy, that's a good reply.
One small thing however. The titanic and enormous flourished a hundred years ago, not today.
Face it, it's over.
Quote from: some guy on June 12, 2013, 09:31:04 PM
Boccherini, yeah. That's the guy that was so titanic and enormous, while Mozart was scratching around.
Then a few years later, Mozart and Haydn were titanic and enormous, while Beethoven was scratching around.
Then it was Berlioz' turn. Beethoven was so titanic and enormous, et cetera.
Remember when Verdi and Wagner were titanic and enormous while pikers like Mahler were scratching around? Yeah. That's the good stuff.
James, your list gets worse and worse as it progresses; there are two names on it I don't know music by and to claim that the aesthetic output of these characters in any possible way compares with those of a century before is pure fantasy.
James
No, I'm serious. Very. I'm into controversy but don't do trolling.
sanantonio
No, I doubt very much that anyone knows more modern music than me.
All are welcome to my 4000 hour list of works I've got to know through five or more listenings-
https://www.box.com/s/qs6irdaz1jt63j5poxl5
And my 1200 composer list from that-
https://www.box.com/s/wua9v7scf6xl8hf4xawe
Anthony
Cheers!
A bit off-topic but me a couple of days ago, second right; the guy to my left is also British, we were taking out girls from the supermarket for the Chinese national Dragon Boat festival, a mythical celebration of masculine energy given by the summer solstice...
(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m71/SeanMcHugh02/China%20Zhuhai/004-3_zpse7ad5148.jpg)
Quote from: Sean on June 13, 2013, 04:08:31 PMNo, I doubt very much that anyone knows more modern music than me.
Ah. Well, I think I'm starting to understand what the problem is here. Yes. Yes indeedy.
Quote from: Sean on June 13, 2013, 04:08:31 PM
No, I'm serious. Very. I'm into controversy but don't do trolling.
Well, certainly no one TAKES you seriously.
QuoteNo, I doubt very much that anyone knows more modern music than me.
All are welcome to my 4000 hour list of works I've got to know through five or more listenings-
https://www.box.com/s/qs6irdaz1jt63j5poxl5
And my 1200 composer list from that-
https://www.box.com/s/wua9v7scf6xl8hf4xawe
Any one of us could pull a list out of our ass such as this to demonstrate "our listening prowess". Yet even a cursory glance reveals a deficiency in the period you so abhor. Which was the point of my earlier post which you so conveniently ignored.
Hi Dancing, sorry but I can't find your other post- would you mind reiterating? Also you could take a look at the latter part of the second list I linked, for a string of recent composers, as you like.
Edit-
Oh, yes, I've found it below.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on June 13, 2013, 05:09:13 PM
Well, certainly no one TAKES you seriously.
Any one of us could pull a list out of our ass such as this to demonstrate "our listening prowess". Yet even a cursory glance reveals a deficiency in the period you so abhor. Which was the point of my earlier post which you so conveniently ignored.
It's what trolls do. He's not even as subtle as he used to be. I think age has gotten to him. It could almost be called sad.
Quote from: Philo on June 13, 2013, 05:37:09 PM
It's what trolls do. He's not even as subtle as he used to be. I think age has gotten to him. It could almost be called sad.
+1
Quote from: Sean on June 12, 2013, 07:22:00 PM
Some of the other works you list I see as among music's valedictory little cul-de-sacs that composers have had a wonder down and back from;
What, even
Mong Dong? Poor old Qu. Hope he's not a near neighbour of yours.
Philo, Dancing, Some, I take your points; perhaps we'll find more agreement next time. This is one of my egoistic threads...
DaveF, I know music of a few Chinese composers though not Qu or whatever his name is... None of the change the equation; best, S
Hello James et al, well some people did seem to think I was being less than sincere saying that music is in decline and contemporary composers don't compare with those of the past, but that's not the case and I sense that there's some annoyance to notice that my arguments are so overwhelming. However I do know what it's like to feel irked.
Art music is still a major part of my life and I listen every day, with an emphasis on different interpretations of the core repertory but retaining some interest in recent works. Current cultural and technical-compositional problems contemporary composers face just don't trouble me as they seem to trouble people here. So art music is in decline, so what? I read there are similar problems of exhaustion in the other arts too...
Quote from: Sean on June 14, 2013, 12:48:46 PM
Hello James et al, well some people did seem to think I was being less than sincere
I'm sure no one doubts the
sincerity of your opinions....
What does James mean by 'the charade' then?
Quote from: Sean on June 14, 2013, 12:48:46 PMI sense that there's some annoyance to notice that my arguments are so overwhelming.
Made me grin. :)
Sean, you haven't made
any arguments, yet. Your unsubstantiated assertions are not at all overwhelming. Pitiable, more like.
"This is the way it is. I, Sean, have spoken."
That just doesn't do that overwhelming thing you mention.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmgyhoRF_gBUnIPOy0eg2Z_sBVYmgcuGAyLoJ-Zf3HkdX5pUjANg)
In your dream of greatness, my butt looks much bigger than it actually is.
Quote from: some guy on June 14, 2013, 01:54:50 PM
. . . That just doesn't do that overwhelming thing you mention.
Nope. The earth signally failed to move. I mean, beyond its normal rotation.
Quote from: James on June 14, 2013, 03:49:41 PM
I love the 'play stupid' part of the act, it's almost charming.
That's usually one of the last moves for a troll.
And meanwhile, the obituary notices for Great Music are, as usual, greatly exaggerated. ;)
Quote from: jochanaan on June 14, 2013, 05:58:26 PM
And meanwhile, the obituary notices for Great Music are, as usual, greatly exaggerated. ;)
I have an entire thread devoted to contemporary classical music. Some of which will definitely be considered 'classic' as time passes.
Quote from: Philo on June 14, 2013, 05:34:40 PM
That's usually one of the last moves for a troll.
Listen here you wackos, I don't know what you mean by a charade here. I'm laying out the obvious that the arts are in decline and no way can the present period be compared with past periods. Are you trolling me?
Best, Sean
Quote from: jochanaan on June 14, 2013, 05:58:26 PM
And meanwhile, the obituary notices for Great Music are, as usual, greatly exaggerated. ;)
Not in today's case, not in today's case. It's over. There are no great composers writing today, a situation not seen for at least a thousand years. Don't give me waffle...
Quote from: Sean on June 13, 2013, 04:08:31 PM
No, I doubt very much that anyone knows more modern music than me.
All are welcome to my 4000 hour list of works I've got to know through five or more listenings-
Sean,
So exactly (or even roughly) how much music does anyone have to know before being able to express educated opinions about it? Clearly, if a listener had only heard 10 pieces of 20th-21st century music, his opinions would not be worth much. But suppose he'd heard 500, or 1000 - when would he start to get taken seriously? And suppose someone had actually heard
more pieces than you, if such a thing were possible - would that mean that you would then bow to their opinions and change some of your own? And what about people with whom you agree, yet whose listening figures don't match yours? - let's say, for example, that of my 2000-disc collection about a quarter is modern music, does that mean that my opinion that Davies's 3rd symphony is a masterpiece, although in accord with yours, isn't worth considering? It seems to me that you're in danger of creating a very lonely world for yourself, where no-one but you has a right to express any aesthetic judgement at all. I don't usually express myself so bluntly, but you're a plain-speaking sort of chap yourself, so will understand.
DF
Peace guys. I think you're okay.
Quote from: DaveF on June 15, 2013, 05:42:58 AM
Sean,
So exactly (or even roughly) how much music does anyone have to know before being able to express educated opinions about it? Clearly, if a listener had only heard 10 pieces of 20th-21st century music, his opinions would not be worth much. But suppose he'd heard 500, or 1000 - when would he start to get taken seriously? And suppose someone had actually heard more pieces than you, if such a thing were possible - would that mean that you would then bow to their opinions and change some of your own? And what about people with whom you agree, yet whose listening figures don't match yours? - let's say, for example, that of my 2000-disc collection about a quarter is modern music, does that mean that my opinion that Davies's 3rd symphony is a masterpiece, although in accord with yours, isn't worth considering? It seems to me that you're in danger of creating a very lonely world for yourself, where no-one but you has a right to express any aesthetic judgement at all. I don't usually express myself so bluntly, but you're a plain-speaking sort of chap yourself, so will understand.
DF
Dave F.
Sean has a long history on this site of trying to portray himself as a luminary who is above the rest of us. Here's a golden oldie.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13498.0.html
He's also a card-carrying member of the tinfoil-hat brigade who is apparently taken in by every conspiracy theorist on youtube.
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21862.0.html
Quote from: Scarpia on June 15, 2013, 10:56:06 AM
Sean has a long history on this site of trying to portray himself as a luminary who is above the rest of us.
He's also a card-carrying member of the tinfoil-hat brigade who is apparently taken in by every conspiracy theorist on youtube.
Well, you know what Joe E. Brown says at the end of
Some Like It Hot.
Quote from: DaveF on June 15, 2013, 01:05:56 PM
Well, you know what Joe E. Brown says at the end of Some Like It Hot.
Actually I didn't, but I googled it. :)
Quote from: Scarpia on June 15, 2013, 02:00:12 PM
Actually I didn't, but I googled it. :)
Well, nobody's perfect! ;)
Thanks for that Scarpia, a good laugh for a couple of minutes to revisit the indignation a thinking person can always arouse unwittingly in the subhuman dullards they find, to their surprise, all around them.
Another thread already filled up with irretrievable vitriol, my lot in life for being alive. Best, S
(http://colddeadhands.us/Portals/0/Blog/wakeupsheeple.jpg)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVKQEubFiU9QtrFSgUo7z7_ME7aYFsScMb-slNDsEQGp7J6qDH)
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVdj2U73e6LvKaSknGoTNFQid6PjLNs3KVVHPqOxsoZHBZ9ppi)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRECMxU4gv9jKcckGuTJjeP9L8i4HLFSqwKFbgt-dTsXT-5ebZv)