GMG Classical Music Forum

Let the polling madness continue! :D My five main criteria for this poll, which some will doubtlessly disagree with, are:

1. The composer in question must have written three or more symphonies. The only composer who I have made an exception to this rule is Elgar, who composed two magnificent, large-scale symphonies, but since this is a poll about underrated symphonists, we needn't worry about him! Edit: I shall include Stenhammar and Suk, who composed two excellent, large-scale symphonies. It would pain me to leave them out.

2. The composer in question must be reasonably "unsung" (as a symphonist, at least). No matter how much you love Beethoven, Bruckner, Mahler or Shostakovich they are not underrated! I have, however, included relatively "sung" composers whose symphonies are not among their most-heralded works, such as Prokofiev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Khachaturian, Britten, Bernstein, Scriabin and Saint-Saens.

3. At least one of the symphonies of the composer in question has to be available in a recording.

4. I have initially left out Classical Era symphonists, because there are so many of them which I did not feel like listing. Apologies if my observation is inaccurate, but there seems to be little interest in obscure classical era composers here. If you want to vote for a Classical Era symphonist, I shall add the composer in question to the poll, but please vote for him!

5. Don't necessarily vote for the "greatest" or your favorites on the list, just the composers who you believe are the most underrated.

I will have doubtlessly left some out, so please speak up if I have left someone out that you want to vote for. My list is in chronological order, as I am using Wikipedia's List of Symphony Composers, which goes in chronological order, as a reference.

OK, now for my top five (in order):

1. Holmboe
2. Miaskovsky
3. Rubbra
4. Atterberg
5. Hartmann

Now, it's your turn! You got 249 to choose from! :D

Tough choices, but my votes ended being for Schnittke, Aho, Diamond, Schuman, and Hartmann.

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 23, 2013, 05:55:35 PM
Tough choices, but my votes ended being for Schnittke, Aho, Diamond, Schuman, and Hartmann.

Damn, I really wanted to vote for Diamond as well, but at least you voted for him! :)

Quote from: kyjo on August 23, 2013, 05:57:29 PM
Damn, I really wanted to vote for Diamond as well, but at least you voted for him! :)

Diamond was an easy vote for me because I looked at it like this: 1. his symphonies (from what I've heard on CD) are outstanding and 2. there is no complete cycle of these symphonies together.

Raff, Vermeulen without any hesitation. They should be ranked among the greatest.
Then Casella and Tournemire. All symphonies of Casella and almost all of  Tournemire are excellent.
And Brian mainly because of the Gothic.

Joseph Haydn should be added to the list.

And probably Richard Hol and Louis Glass.

Vermeulen is so underrated, he outdoes any others (whose work I know) in underratedness by such a margin that i could only vote for him.

Well the first was easy. Farrenc is, in my opinion, the most under-rated by far. Her symphonies are top grade stuff. After that, I went for Ropartz, Stanford, Hamerik, and Stenhammar. Some on the list are great, but not underrated. Copland and Saint-Saens are well known for at least one of their symphonies, so while some of their symphonies may be underrated, they as composers of symphonies are not.

If I had to add one it would be Burgmuller, an eternaly underrated composer.

Quote from: kyjo on August 23, 2013, 05:48:39 PM
Let the polling madness continue! :D

Dude, you are insane!  :D  It must've taken you days to assemble that list. I'll join the madness shortly. But you already know Havergal will make the cut  8)

Sarge

Havergal Brian
Alberic Magnard
Franz Schmidt
Kurt Atterberg
George Lloyd


Sarge

Quote from: mszczuj on August 23, 2013, 11:01:53 PM
Joseph Haydn should be added to the list.

How could the Father of the Symphony be underrated??

That poll was overwhelming, I couldn't even finish reading the choices.  I think I'll start another thread with a similar but fundamentally different question.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2013, 04:38:16 AM
Dude, you are insane!  :D  It must've taken you days to assemble that list. I'll join the madness shortly. But you already know Havergal will make the cut  8)

Sarge

I may be insane :D, but it only took me about an hour to assemble that list because of Wikipedia's immensely helpful List of Symphony Composers, which is pretty darn comprehensive! Nice choices BTW. I could have very well voted for Schmidt (his Fourth is an incredibly moving piece which ranks up there with Mahler IMO) or Magnard. But one thing's for sure, Brian sure isn't underrated here at GMG! 8)

Are most of these composers' symphonies rated in the first place?  ::)

Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2013, 05:33:21 AM
That poll was overwhelming, I couldn't even finish reading the choices.  I think I'll start another thread with a similar but fundamentally different question.

Sorry you felt that way, David. :( I didn't want to exclude any of the many underrated symphonists and, in effect, couldn't really help overwhelming voters with such a long list. Can you think of any symphonists who you believe are underrated off the top of your head? :)

Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 09:26:10 AM
Sorry you felt that way, David. :( I didn't want to exclude any of the many underrated symphonists and, in effect, couldn't really help overwhelming voters with such a long list. Can you think of any symphonists who you believe are underrated off the top of your head? :)

Some of us will help you make it longer. Just wait...

Since I couldn't finish reading it either, can you tell me if Zhu Jian'er is on the list?

Quote from: springrite on August 24, 2013, 09:28:07 AM
Some of us will help you make it longer. Just wait...

Since I couldn't finish reading it either, can you tell me if Zhu Jian'er is on the list?

I shall add Jianer. He certainly qualifies as underrated, that's for sure! 8)

Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 09:26:10 AM
Sorry you felt that way, David. :( I didn't want to exclude any of the many underrated symphonists and, in effect, couldn't really help overwhelming voters with such a long list. Can you think of any symphonists who you believe are underrated off the top of your head? :)

Not really because if I've heard of them, it's from others which means that they are not underrated. :D

Quote from: springrite on August 24, 2013, 09:24:44 AM
Are most of these composers' symphonies rated in the first place?  ::)

Sorry springrite, but I don't appreciate your smart-alec comments. Just tell me who is more underrated, Mahler or Schmidt? Whose symphonies do you hear more often in the concert hall? Apologies if you were just joking. If you were joking, perhaps you'd better use a winky face emoticon rather than a eye-rolling one.

I shall add Hol, Louis Glass and Burgmuller. But not Haydn! How the heck is this guy underrated? ??? :P

Quote from: kyjo on August 24, 2013, 09:36:40 AM
Sorry springrite, but I don't appreciate your smart-alec comments. Just tell me who is more underrated, Mahler or Schmidt? Whose symphonies do you hear more often in the concert hall? Apologies if you were just joking. If you were joking, perhaps you'd better use a winky face emoticon rather than a eye-rolling one.

Obviously Paul meant that because they aren't heard, people don't have opinions of them, so, to be underrated, they should be rated in the first place.

My picks:

Schmidt
Bax
Weinberg
Miaskovsky
Wellesz

Quote from: North Star on August 24, 2013, 10:59:07 AM
Obviously Paul meant that because they aren't heard, people don't have opinions of them, so, to be underrated, they should be rated in the first place.

Obviously? I don't think so. Nothing was obvious in Paul's post except that he was criticizing my poll in an unclear manner. I appreciate criticisms as long as they make sense and are posted without any eye-roll emoticons which tell me that the criticizer is in some way exasperated. OK, since there seems to be so much confusion, I'll offer a further explanation of my definition of "underrated": A majority of listeners don't have to form a negative opinion of a composer for him/her to be "underrated". If most listeners haven't been exposed to a particular composer, he/she is "underrated". Let's take Atterberg for example. Not many people have heard his music, but the comparatively people who have can't believe it isn't more widely known. That's just my two cents worth.

P.S. I guess "underrated" wasn't the best word to use for this poll. "Unsung" would be better, I think. 8)

I'm trying to think of some composers who are actually "underrated" because of most listeners having negative opinions of them, as opposed to simply having not heard of them. Perhaps Ferneyhough. Or Ditters von Dittersdorf. >.>

Only nine voters so far? C'mon, guys! 8)

Quote from: kyjo on August 25, 2013, 05:32:45 PM
Only nine voters so far? C'mon, guys! 8)

This number has, at least, the modest charm of the symmetry. An outburst of voters would refute the very same foundation of this poll.  ;D

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 25, 2013, 05:47:04 PM
This number has, at least, the modest charm of the symmetry. An outburst of voters would refute the very same foundation of this poll.  ;D

:P ;)

I'll vote for CPE Bach, the Hamburg Sinfonias are close enough! :D

Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2013, 05:30:32 AM
How could the Father of the Symphony be underrated??

There is nothing about value in "father". All right, may be not the whole Haydn, may be only 106 and 3/4 of his 107 known symphonies.

Kyjo,
I think I once started a thread about which GMG'er has cost you the most money. With all the polls you have started and all the responses that it has generated, in a short time, you are moving up fast on that list! Damn you!



PS: The last two word sentence is on behalf of my wife, BTW.

Quote from: springrite on September 09, 2013, 11:43:18 AM
Kyjo,
I think I once started a thread about which GMG'er has cost you the most money. With all the polls you have started and all the responses that it has generated, in a short time, you are moving up fast on that list! Damn you!



PS: The last two word sentence is on behalf of my wife, BTW.

:P :laugh:

I tried, but to vote on only 5 I have to keep going back and unchecking older choices going down the list, and it's just too much.

Just joined and voted....  1)Richard Wetz  2)Janis Ivanovs  3) Ludolf Nielsen  4) Alan Hovhaness   5)  Jan van Gilse.   One not on the list I may have voted for is Gavriil Popov.  Just discovered Gilse recently, 3rd symphony is great, mix of Richard Strauss and Wetz,  and a little Mahler.    I know about symphonies like Schmidt #4, Taneyev #4 and Stenahammar #2, but I wanted to vote for composers even more obscure than those.    Charles.

Hi Charles, and welcome - interesting choices! If you like, feel free to post something about yourself in the "Introductions" section of the board. In any case, have a good time here.

--Bruce

As most of us are unlikely to have heard symphonies by all of these composers, this is scarcely a contest but it is of interest to see where appreciation lies. I only voted for 4 because my other is Emilie Meyer, whose fifth symphony has been recorded and who is most definitely underrated.

Brian
Bax
Langgaard
Rubbra
Hartmann

There are of course many great symphonists on the list, but some, like Schnittke, I think are fairly well rated.

But I could have added Pietro Mennini to the list, I guess.

Do Schnittke's symphonies really have a better or wider reputation than Hartmann's, Paul?

CPE Bach
Christian Cannabich
Franz Xaver Richter
Ferdinand Ries
- and people who were included in the poll -
Kalliwoda
Farrenc
Roussel
Atterberg
Martinu
Holmboe
H. Koppel
G. Lloyd

FAVORITE: Atterberg or Roussel
BEST: Martinu
MOST UNDERRATED: Kalliwoda

Also, Dvorak's 2nd and 3rd symphonies are hugely underrated.

Quote from: Daverz on September 10, 2013, 04:01:43 AM
I tried, but to vote on only 5 I have to keep going back and unchecking older choices going down the list, and it's just too much.

Too many choices is right!!!

And I began to quibble: e.g. "Is Karl Amadeus Hartmann at this point in musical history really underrated?  Is he perhaps under-appreciated, but not underrated?"

Oh well!

Hartmann, Kalliwoda, Scriabin, Taneyev, Zemlinsky.

C.P.E. Bach, Martinu, Ernst Toch and Alexander Tcherepnin for honorable mention!   0:)

I'm not sure I understand the criteria for considering a composer "underrated". I mean, Havergal Brian may be the poster boy for underrated composers. Yet he has a Havergal Brian Society dedicated to the promotion of his works, has met with the advocacy of major artistic figures and most of his music has been recorded (some of it multiple times). That's more than can be said for, e.g., German Galynin or Marcel Poot or Ethel Smyth or Franz Ignaz Beck, just to name some symphonists I've heard of, or for that matter—pulling some names randomly out of your list—Emil von Reznicek, Jef van Hoof or Seoirse Bodley. And Brian's hardly the most mainstream figure on your list—Saint-Saëns? Prokofiev? Britten? Penderecki? Pärt? Skryabin? Philip Glass, only the most popular and commercially successful classical composer of the 21st century? "Unsung"?

Also, 'cos it's a Kyjo thread, I kind of expected more obscure choices. No Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov? No Romualds Kalsons? No Bernard van Dieren? No Anatoly Bogatyrev? No Elie Siegmeister? No Jani Christou? For shame, man! ;)

edit: well anyway, after that outbreak of bitching, I picked a few names with as little staring at that eye-straining list as possible: Kalivoda, Vermeulen, Gerhard, Harrison & Segerstam. Okay, I don't like Segerstam that much. But I was tired of scrolling and hey, fewer than 1% of his symphonies have been recorded, that seems pretty underrated to me! 8)

edit 2: hey, you did include Siegmeister! You just misspelled his name, so I missed it the first time. Brooklyn represent.

Now where's Derek Bourgeois? ;)

Quote from: amw on December 11, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
I'm not sure I understand the criteria for considering a composer "underrated"....

Right!  That was my problem!

Quote from: amw on December 11, 2013, 02:37:09 PM

Also, 'cos it's a Kyjo thread, I kind of expected more obscure choices. No Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov?

NOW you're talkin', podner!   :D

Quote from: amw on December 11, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
No Jani Christou?

I almost choked on my coffee there.  ;)

Quote from: DavidW on August 24, 2013, 05:33:21 AM
That poll was overwhelming, I couldn't even finish reading the choices.

There seem to be 253 choices;  I'm not bothering even to try.

Quote from: Ten thumbs on December 11, 2013, 01:09:17 PM
As most of us are unlikely to have heard symphonies by all of these composers[....]

We should probably worry about anyone who has . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on December 12, 2013, 03:55:45 AM
We should probably worry about anyone who has . . . .

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

G'morn' Karl!  8)

Perhaps Mike (some guy) has heard all of these 253's symphonies, plus another 253 unsungs.  ;)

Bonjour, Ray!

I, of course, picked 5 before I finished looking at even 1/3 of the list, and little thought went into it ( almost picking the first five names that I recognise that kind of clicked.

I suspect that is true with most people who replied.

Well, you're the psychologist . . . .

0:)   8)

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 12, 2013, 04:02:14 AM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

G'morn' Karl!  8)

Perhaps Mike (some guy) has heard all of these 253's symphonies, plus another 253 unsungs.  ;)

I see somebody voted for Leif Segerstam: I believe he has composed more than 253 symphonies all by his lonesome!

Rosenberg (no complete cycle)
Diamond (the same)
Kinsella
Stanley Bate
Richard Arnell

My votes go to Schnittke, Simpson, Glazunov and Roussel.

And Yngve Skold who wasn't on the list - 4 excellent symphonies. :)

Quote from: madaboutmahler on January 04, 2014, 08:26:42 AM
My votes go to Schnittke, Simpson, Glazunov and Roussel.

And Yngve Skold who wasn't on the list - 4 excellent symphonies. :)

Shit - now we need to start all over again.

I vote for Melartin, Holmboe, Hartmann and Simpson and Schnittke.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on January 04, 2014, 01:23:12 PM
I vote for Melartin, Holmboe, Hartmann and Simpson and Schnittke.

I can't get into Simpson, but agree about Melartin, Holmboe, Hartmann, and Schnittke (although not as consistent as the other three).

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 12, 2014, 03:55:59 PM
I can't get into Simpson, but agree about Melartin, Holmboe, Hartmann, and Schnittke (although not as consistent as the other three).

There were several composers I considered as fifth choice, but I ended up voting for Simpson; I don't think Szymanowski, Glazunov, Atterberg, Honegger are as underrated as him, and I haven't listened to enough symphonies by Pettersson, Rautavaara, Aho or Schuman to choose one of them.

Since Mahler is not on the list  ;), my choice goes to the following:

- Enescu
- Honegger
- Casella
- Sessions
- Krenek

But I must admit there's quite a few names on this list that I've never even heard of  :-[

Miaskovsky.

Quote from: Ken B on February 15, 2014, 08:20:12 AM
Miaskovsky.

+1  Agreed!  :)

Quote from: Ken B on February 15, 2014, 08:20:12 AM
Miaskovsky.

Me too  :)

I've never heard a note of Vermeulen or Hartmann,  so they go on my to do list.

Miaskovsky as I said is my top pick. Others are Glazunov, Simpson.

I think Haydn is underrated but ....

Quote from: Ken B on February 15, 2014, 07:09:11 PMI've never heard a note of Hartmann

If you enjoy the expressionism of Berg, then you'll feel right at home in Hartmann's sound-world. 8)

Is it time to start a poll on the 5 most overrated underrated symphonists? Just wondering.....

Quote from: The new erato on February 16, 2014, 06:44:32 AM
Is it time to start a poll on the 5 most overrated underrated symphonists? Just wondering.....

There should be a limit as to how many choices to have. I mean, I began to hate this thread within a week because of how far I have to page down to see a post. At least two third of the names on the list does not belong in any poll. Is it a contest to show who can toss out more names as if he/she know them like the back of his/her hands though most people in this forum has never heard of them?

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 06:29:58 AM
If you enjoy the expressionism of Berg, then you'll feel right at home in Hartmann's sound-world. 8)

I listened to Herbig 6. So going by one hearing of one piece  :) ...

I think, like with a lot of Reger, he over eggs the pudding. Berg always has cleaner lines and motion.  I'd say Hartmann to Berg as some of Reger to Brahms, if that makes sense. More is less.  I like Lulu, I like Wozzeck, I don't want them played simultaneously.

YMMV of course. I'll give 2 a try.

Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
I listened to Herbig 6. So going by one hearing of one piece  :) ...

I think, like with a lot of Reger, he over eggs the pudding. Berg always has cleaner lines and motion.  I'd say Hartmann to Berg as some of Reger to Brahms, if that makes sense. More is less.  I like Lulu, I like Wozzeck, I don't want them played simultaneously.

YMMV of course. I'll give 2 a try.

Hartmann studied with Joseph Haas who was a pupil of Max Reger, but he also, surprisingly, studied with Anton Webern. Hartmann's music, for me, was about his pint up anger and what he must have been feeling during the Nazi era (he was totally against them). He also withdrew from composing during WWII. All of the pain, suffering, and heartbreak is found in Hartmann's music. It's just manifested through a hard shell. His music is explosive, volatile and completely unhinged, but it's inspiring stuff for me because beneath the chaos there is an order and a whole world of musical richness to be found. So just keep listening!

I heard Vermeulen 3, Leitner.

Again, I'm not sold. I'll try another, but at this point, having heard some the vote getters, I'm feeling more confident it's Miaskovsky!
:-\

Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 07:32:09 AM
I heard Vermeulen 3, Leitner.

Again, I'm not sold. I'll try another, but at this point, having heard some the vote getters, I'm feeling more confident it's Miaskovsky!
:-\

Well not everything is instantly gratification. Some composers take time to appreciate.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 16, 2014, 07:41:40 AM
Well not everything is instantly gratification. Some composers take time to appreciate.

As some gets that treatment multiple times, changing of mind that proves costly, as John will tell you.

Quote from: springrite on February 16, 2014, 07:46:01 AM
As some gets that treatment multiple times, changing of mind that proves costly, as John will tell you.

So true, so true.

Quote from: The new erato on February 16, 2014, 06:44:32 AM
Is it time to start a poll on the 5 most overrated underrated symphonists? Just wondering.....

Hmm, that's a good idea.

At the moment I think my votes would go to Brian, Bax, Pettersson, Glazunov and Atterberg—any allure in their music has so far been inaudible to me—but there are plenty of these guys I've never even heard of.

Bump.
ZauberdrachenNr7, you got some votin' to do.  8)

Quote from: Ken B on February 16, 2014, 07:07:01 AM
I listened to Herbig 6. So going by one hearing of one piece  :) ...

I think, like with a lot of Reger, he over eggs the pudding. Berg always has cleaner lines and motion.  I'd say Hartmann to Berg as some of Reger to Brahms, if that makes sense. More is less.  I like Lulu, I like Wozzeck, I don't want them played simultaneously.

YMMV of course. I'll give 2 a try.

And, yet, you buy a Hartmann set of symphonies. :)

I chose Kalliwoda, Farrenc, Atterberg, George Lloyd, and Dag Wiren. I was the first vote for Lloyd or Wiren.

A couple composers I considered don't belong here because their symphonies ARE very highly rated: Prokofiev and Martinu. (To me at least, Martinu's is the best or anyway most consistently great symphony cycle on the list.)

A few more composers I considered don't deserve to be called "underrated" because, as living people, it's much too soon to tell how their symphonies will be rated. At any rate, critical consensus early on is very high, and I agree. Those composers are: Kalevi Aho, Christopher Rouse, Aaron Jay Kernis, Philip Glass.

Quote from: Brian on November 17, 2014, 12:27:17 PM
. (To me at least, Martinu's is the best or anyway most consistently great symphony cycle on the list.)

Me too, which is why I voted for him. He's getting more recognition, but not quite as much as he should.

My other choices were Schuman, Simpson, Pettersson, and Arnold.

  I'm somewhat in awe of the list here. I cast my vote based on what I've listened to, but about a third of these composers I've never even heard of. Good show.

Quote from: Ken B on November 16, 2014, 06:11:42 PM
Bump.
ZauberdrachenNr7, you got some votin' to do.  8)

Bump.

Having now heard all of Hartmann's, still not sold. But I think Lloyd needs more exploration, from what I have listened to so far, and liked.