I'm very excited for my first ASO concert of the season in October, they are performing Sibelius' Symphony No.2 and this will be my first time seeing this grand piece live.
I am continuing my several year-long exploration of the symphonies of Sibelius and would like to focus on No.2 for a while. I would love to begin a discussion with users on both the piece and a their top choice(s) for recordings and why they feel so strongly about this recording.
I am also interested in investing in several more recordings, and would like to get ones that contrast well with each other.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts and recs, my friends. :)
(http://www.artsjournal.com/condemned/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/600full-jean-sibelius1.jpg)
This recording is pretty special. Despite liking Sibelius, I'm not the hugest fan of the Second, perhaps because it seems to be played so often at the expense of his other symphonies. So when a couple of Cleveland Orchestra fans gave me this (she's a pianist, he's a musicologist) I was a little skeptical.
Szell died just a few months after this tour, and apparently he knew he was going and the orchestra knew it also; the performance is commensurately emotional.
[asin]B001FOSKIE[/asin]
--Bruce
Quote from: Brewski on September 05, 2013, 08:31:49 AM
This recording is pretty special. Despite liking Sibelius, I'm not the hugest fan of the Second, perhaps because it seems to be played so often at the expense of his other symphonies. So when a couple of Cleveland Orchestra fans gave me this (she's a pianist, he's a musicologist) I was a little skeptical.
Szell died just a few months after this tour, and apparently he knew he was going and the orchestra knew it also; the performance is commensurately emotional.
[asin]B001FOSKIE[/asin]
--Bruce
Thanks for the first response, Bruce.
This sounds like a special occasion for sure, and Cleveland/Szell have certainly has made some incredible recordings.
Although I enjoy the Barbirolli performance on Testament an awful lot, I've never found a recording I like. Everyone seems to prefer the first movement soggy and bloated; if there's a sharp-edged recording it has yet to reach my ears. The result is I tend to listen to whichever one has the most exciting finale - or just opt for the Third Symphony instead.
I just read a review of a
Toscanini BBC set, which contains the
Sibelius Second:
QuoteEven in music less associated with him, Toscanini manages to persuade—in his fashion. A live performance of Elgar's "Enigma" Variations from 1935 proves nimble and noble and is rightly capped by a torrent of applause. For Sibelius's Second Symphony (live, 1938), Toscanini eschews a cool Nordic approach for a bracing Italian one, complete with blazing brasses.
See:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324619504579030741903019418.html?KEYWORDS=Toscanini (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324619504579030741903019418.html?KEYWORDS=Toscanini)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2013, 08:34:23 AM
Thanks for the first response, Bruce.
This sounds like a special occasion for sure, and Cleveland/Szell have certainly has made some incredible recordings.
You can get a feel for it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL5ys4qnIy0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL5ys4qnIy0). It looks like this is an LP transfer, so sound on the CD should be better. It's quite intense.
I had heard positive reviews of the following recording and picked it up a few months ago. My first Sibelius purchase, as it were:
[asin]B006UTDETE[/asin]
I've come to enjoy this disc and can recommend it, especially for the SACD sound (sort of a mid-rear hall recording perspective).
Have fun at the concert and please post a review here after the fact!
I like the Bernstein DGG version, the Toscanini and the Beecham on BBC Legends. The Szell live version looks very interesting too.
Beecham, Anthony Collins and Okku Kamu are the preferred ones in my collection.
I recently picked Maazel & Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra and I really like it.
I have no idea what anyone else thinks about it though.
Ormandy/CBS and Barbirolli/RPO.
My favorite is Ormandy/Philadelphia orchestra. Great internal tension and control.
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 08:38:36 AM
Although I enjoy the Barbirolli performance on Testament an awful lot, I've never found a recording I like. Everyone seems to prefer the first movement soggy and bloated; if there's a sharp-edged recording it has yet to reach my ears. The result is I tend to listen to whichever one has the most exciting finale - or just opt for the Third Symphony instead.
Yes.
You need the Monteux recording.
Forget the rest.
Short review there but don't have much time for the forum these days. Best, Sean
Quote from: Brian on September 05, 2013, 08:38:36 AM
Although I enjoy the Barbirolli performance on Testament an awful lot, I've never found a recording I like. Everyone seems to prefer the first movement soggy and bloated; if there's a sharp-edged recording it has yet to reach my ears. The result is I tend to listen to whichever one has the most exciting finale - or just opt for the Third Symphony instead.
The
Toscanini performance on the BBC recording should be for you!
Quote from: Sean on September 06, 2013, 04:28:32 AM
You need the Monteux recording.
Brian wants a
really fast first movement (among other attributes in his quest for the perfect Sibelius 2). I once suggested Szell (9:17) but even that didn't satisfy him. Monteux/LSO is 10:09. I don't think that's going to make the grade either.
Quote from: Cato on September 06, 2013, 04:37:59 AM
The Toscanini performance on the BBC recording should be for you!
Toscanini/BBC (8:49), But the sound isn't first class.
Sarge
Vanska/Lahti is a fine one. Unlike the other symphonies in the cycle which give a reserved, mysterious impression, this one is quite extroverted.
Szell/Concertgebouw is another fine one.
Finally, there is the Bernstein/Vienna Philharmonic, notable for the absurdly slow second movement. Like a train wreck in slow motion, you can't take you eyes off of it.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 05, 2013, 07:55:25 AM
I am also interested in investing in several more recordings, and would like to get ones that contrast well with each other.
Szell/Cleveland and Bernstein/Vienna are the alpha and omega of Sibelius 2 interpretations. Start there 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Brewski on September 05, 2013, 08:31:49 AM
This recording is pretty special. Despite liking Sibelius, I'm not the hugest fan of the Second, perhaps because it seems to be played so often at the expense of his other symphonies. So when a couple of Cleveland Orchestra fans gave me this (she's a pianist, he's a musicologist) I was a little skeptical.
Szell died just a few months after this tour, and apparently he knew he was going and the orchestra knew it also; the performance is commensurately emotional.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2013, 05:58:16 AM
Szell/Cleveland and Bernstein/Vienna are the alpha and omega of Sibelius 2 interpretations. Start there 8)
Sarge
I listened to the Szell last night on youtube and was floored. It has taken me longer to enjoy Sibelius as much as other composers, but this version was something else. It certainly kept my attention the whole time. Great recommendation!!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2013, 05:58:16 AM
Szell/Cleveland and Bernstein/Vienna are the alpha and omega of Sibelius 2 interpretations. Start there 8)
Sarge
Is the live version from Japan the only recording available from Cleveland/Szell?
And I did listen to Bernstein's the other day on Spotify, marvelous in my book, his later-in-life approach similar to his Dvorak 9 with Israel Phil works here I believe.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 06, 2013, 06:06:28 AM
Is the live version from Japan the only recording available from Cleveland/Szell?
Yes, it's the only one. There's also the famous Concertgebouw recording. As Scarpia mentioned, it's a good one too...but ever since acquiring (from the orchestra's shop at Severance Hall) the live performance, I rarely listen to it.
Edit: you might consider that Concertgebouw recording. The Tokyo live is expensive. I see at Amazon you can buy the Szell Decca/Philips box for the same price. Besides the Sibelius, you get a fantastic Beethoven 5, a complete Egmont, Tchaikovsky 4 (my preferred version) and a great Mozart 34 as well as a few minor jewels.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 06, 2013, 05:58:16 AM
Szell/Cleveland and Bernstein/Vienna are the alpha and omega of Sibelius 2 interpretations. Start there 8)
Sarge
Can't really argue with the Sarge on this ;D
I could however throw in another old favourite of mine which is
Monteux with the
London SO.
Reading this forum really does determine what one listens to this evening when getting home from a weeks long slog....Sibelius 2 sounds good to me...may revisit Monteux tonight.
The mention of Kamu & Barbirolli have peaked my interest, I don't know these performances but have been thinking of buying the Barbirolli box for a while.
Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on September 06, 2013, 06:44:53 AM
The mention of Kamu & Barbirolli have peaked my interest, I don't know these performances but have been thinking of buying the Barbirolli box for a while.
The Barbirolli everyone loves is a live recording with the Royal Philharmonic on Testament. Or at least that's the one everyone
should[/it] prefer.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 06, 2013, 06:05:04 AM
I listened to the Szell last night on youtube and was floored. It has taken me longer to enjoy Sibelius as much as other composers, but this version was something else. It certainly kept my attention the whole time. Great recommendation!!
I think I'll (re?)listen to that today. :)
Quote from: Brian on September 06, 2013, 06:47:21 AM
The Barbirolli everyone loves is a live recording with the Royal Philharmonic on Testament. Or at least that's the one everyone should prefer.
Thanks Brian, I've just read the Amazon reviews...glowing!
As a whole, how do you/others rate the EMI Barbirolli set, inc the 2nd?
Karajan, EMI for me. epic.
My top five Sibelius 2 performances in no particular order:
[asin]B0091JQH2Q[/asin] [asin]B006UTDETE[/asin] [asin]B000003GCO[/asin] [asin]B0000D9Y7X[/asin] [asin]B000001G8C[/asin]
A couple notes: I find the Beecham/RPO performance of the 2nd to be in an entirely different league than his cycle with the Halle Orchestra. Many may find the Bernstein unconventional, but I've always loved his interpretations (especially of late-romantic music), no matter how wildly out of the norm they may be. 8)
P.S. Sorry the image for the Bernstein recording isn't working; here it is:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qhAXilyQBS0/TCOdgbSny9I/AAAAAAAAGjM/pqLwu6xQegQ/s1600/Sibelius+Bernstein+2.jpg)
Does anyone have the timings for all these 2nd's and maybe others? I love the broad strokes that Bernstein uses in the finale, but there are times I want the finale to drive towards that coda, to build steam to that gorgeous chorale rather than stress ritardandos. I haven't see a score so perhaps it contains these markings.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 05, 2013, 08:47:11 AM
You can get a feel for it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL5ys4qnIy0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL5ys4qnIy0). It looks like this is an LP transfer, so sound on the CD should be better. It's quite intense.
Wow. That's a Sibelius 2nd I can get behind, what a commanding finale. I was going to grab the Concertgebouw/Szell but now I'm nervous it won't be as good. ??? :)
I enjoy Sibelius' 2nd but it's not a favorite of mine unlike his 4th, 6th, and 7th, but my votes go to Bernstein/NY Philharmonic and Davis/BSO. These two performances made favorable impressions on me when I first heard them.
Thanks for those timings Sarge!
Quote from: Sean on September 06, 2013, 04:28:32 AM
Yes.
You need the Monteux recording.
Forget the rest.
Short review there but don't have much time for the forum these days. Best, Sean
Amen!
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 06, 2013, 03:31:15 PM
Does anyone have the timings for all these 2nd's and maybe others?
Sibelius 2 timings, in order from fastest first movement to slowest. The Szell and Saraste live recordings are the actual times of the performances, not the times listed in the booklet (which include pauses between movements and applause). I don't have the Barbirolli/Testament or Chesky timings.
Järvi/Gothenburg 8:48 13:54 5:57 12:59
Toscanini/BBC 8:49 12:37 5:50 12:16
Berglund/COE 9:07 13:30 5:59 12:55
Szell/Cleveland 9:12 12:48 5:52 14:03
Vänskä/Lahti 9:14 14:25 5:57 14:55
Levi/Cleveland 9:15 12:47 5:30 13:22
Saraste/Finnish RSO 9:18 13:32 5:48 13:13
Szell/Concertgebouw 9:24 12:40 5:54 13:41
Bernstein/New York 9:25 14:43 5:41 14:34
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow 9:36 15:00 5:52 14:30
Davis/Boston 9:40 14:35 5:57 14:31
Davis/LSO Live 9:43 14:52 6:06 14:02
Maazel/Vienna 9:44 13:02 6:05 14:13
Berglund/Bournemouth 9:50 15:26 6:01 13:37
Sakari/Iceland 9:54 14:47 6:17 14:03
Blomstedt/San Fran 9:56 14:18 6:08 14:10
Segerstam/Helsinki 10:06 15:03 6:23 14:13
Davis/LSO RCA 10:13 15:25 6:07 14:45
Monteux/LSO 10:16 14:36 6:15 12:49
Celibidache/Swed RSO 10:16 16:03 5:49 14:21
Sanderling/Berlin SO 10:23 13:15 7:01 14:48
Barbirolli/Hallé 10:33 15:02 5:58 14:22
Ashkenazy/Philh 10:37 15:01 6:17 14:26
Bernstein/Vienna 10:54 18:02 6:23 15:57
Maazel/Pittsburgh 11:28 14:34 6:18 14:33
Check this out: it says Toscanini with the NBC Orchestra, so not the same as the BBC recording previously mentioned, but the sound (for 1939) is pretty good. You get a feel for the almost chamber-music clarity and the brisk pace.
http://www.youtube.com/vgQxbWgWMfoE
Quote from: Cato on September 07, 2013, 03:53:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/gQxbWgWMfoE
There. I fixed it for you. Thank me later ;)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 07, 2013, 05:29:56 AM
There. I fixed it for you. Thank me later ;)
Although the white box did have more "chamber music clarity."
Quote from: Annie on September 07, 2013, 05:37:35 AM
Barbi/Testament: 10:13 14:26 6:01 13:58
Barbi/Chesky: 10:00 14:14 19 :40
Thank you, Annie.
Quote from: Scarpia on September 07, 2013, 05:55:53 AM
Although the white box did have more "chamber music clarity."
:D ;D :D
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 07, 2013, 02:53:42 AM
Monteux/LSO 10:16 14:36 6:15 12:49
Just listened to
Monteux on Spotify, quite exhilarating. I'm starting to find my preference for Sibelius 2nd leaning towards a swifter tempo.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 07, 2013, 05:29:56 AM
There. I fixed it for you. Thank me later ;)
Sarge
Gadzooks! That's one hell of a performance. Almost flawless first movement too, if the violins' opening motif was more sharply articulated it would be my ideal. Thanks folks :)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 07, 2013, 07:37:42 AM
Just listened to Monteux on Spotify, quite exhilarating. I'm starting to find my preference for Sibelius 2nd leaning towards a swifter tempo.
Same here Monkey Greg! :)
I get more out of the Toscanini and Monteux recordings than, say, Ormandy or Karajan - but I had become rather jaded until I found another Barbirolli performance on the net (statework blog), with the Boston SO (1964): it blew me away - it is so intense and revelatory that I can't listen to it again any time soon. - The timings are 9:52, 13:31 and 20:56 - from which you can see that he is a tad swifter in 1 and 2 than before, slightly more expansive in the last two movements than the Chesky, but it's the spontaneous interpretative freedom in concert that is so exciting.
Interesting list Sarge.
I listened to the live Szell on Youtube the other day- plenty of his ruthless commitment and builds well to the end in the manner of the Karajan but Americans in Japan don't really capture Finland and the character and spirit of the music I feel does elude him. Monteux turns the corners smoother, letting the passion emerge from the music without selling it; his terracing of the inner textures is matchless.
Quote from: Brian on September 07, 2013, 07:56:43 AM
Gadzooks! That's one hell of a performance (the Toscanini, fixed by Sarge). Almost flawless first movement too, if the violins' opening motif was more sharply articulated it would be my ideal. Thanks folks :)
Similar to this are slam-dunk
Toscanini performances of
Beethoven's Seventh and of
Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony. The latter however was somewhat truncated to fit on the records of the 1940's/1950's.
Thanks again to
Sarge for fixing the YouTube link! (The one time I do not preview it... :D )
You all have inspired me to go back and listen to some of my dusty Sibelius 2nd recordings. The recordings that I own and thus know at least a bit are:
Toscanini. NBC SO (1940)
Beecham, London PO (1947)
Ormandy Phila O (1958) CBS/Sony
Szell, COA (1964)
Barbirolli, Halle O (1966)
Ormandy Phila O (1972) RCA
Jarvi, Gothenburg SO (1983)
Colin Davis, LSO (1994)
Vanska, Lahti SO (1996)
Listening again to Toscanini, I liked it better than I remembered. I am only a sometimes Toscanini fan. Here I found his incisiveness worked well with the piece, only in part of the 2nd movement did I find it overbearing. That said, it is still one of my least favorites. Of the two Ormandy recordings, I prefer the earlier one one CBS now Sony. The timings are quite close but the earlier one is better recorded to my ears and preferences. Vanska's has much to recommend, generally satisfying. I feel he gets ponderous in some places where I wish he didn't. His finale is good though I thought the brass overwhelms the strings. Barbirolli and his sound engineers manage to bring a beautiful balance between the brass and the shimmering strings that is quite magical.
My favorites remain the Colin Davis, the Szell Concertgebouw Orchestra recording and the Barbirolli. I am curious to hear the Szell Cleveland Orchestra recording after reading some comments here. The Szell and Barbirolli are rather different from each other, Szell incisive and intense, Barbirolli expansive. It is hard not to put Colin Davis up there with them. He seems to get everything in it's right place, buidling to carefully calibrated climaxes that never cease to amaze me. By the way, I used to own Sir Colin's first recording of the second symphony with the BSO. I played it a lot at one time (the whole cycle actually) and have positive memories of it, though the details dim with time. I have more on vinyl but rarely get any vinyl out these days. I have fond memories of the Monteux and Barbirolli RPO recordings.
I am curious if anyone here has got both Vanska recordings and how they compare.
Just listened to the Monteux for the first time, following a recommendation here. It is very impressive, a most eloquent performance. The terrific coda begins in a rather understated way and cumulatively builds up power with a tremendous sense of inevitability. Maazel's accompanying Karelia Suite is the best version I have heard. Now on to Anthony Collins in Symphony No 2!
Quote from: vandermolen on September 12, 2013, 12:49:29 PM
Just listened to the Monteux for the first time, following a recommendation here. It is very impressive, a most eloquent performance. The terrific coda begins in a rather understated way and cumulatively builds up power with a tremendous sense of inevitability. Maazel's accompanying Karelia Suite is the best version I have heard. Now on to Anthony Collins in Symphony No 2!
Cool, Jeffrey. 8) Will investigate the Monteux! Your description of the coda in this performance is quite enticing! Is it this recording?
[asin]B009TT08NW[/asin]
Quote from: kyjo on September 12, 2013, 01:12:59 PM
Cool, Jeffrey. 8) Will investigate the Monteux! Your description of the coda in this performance is quite enticing! Is it this recording?
[asin]B009TT08NW[/asin]
-Chiming In- that's the one, Kyjo, I just ordered it myself, it's definitely my kind of Sibelius 2.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 12, 2013, 01:18:17 PM
-Chiming In- that's the one, Kyjo, I just ordered it myself, it's definitely my kind of Sibelius 2.
Nice! You'll never believe what I'm going to do next-that's right, plop it right into the old Amazon shopping cart! :P
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 07, 2013, 02:53:42 AM
Sibelius 2 timings, in order from fastest first movement to slowest. The Szell and Saraste live recordings are the actual times of the performances, not the times listed in the booklet (which include pauses between movements and applause). I don't have the Barbirolli/Testament or Chesky timings.
Järvi/Gothenburg 8:48 13:54 5:57 12:59
Toscanini/BBC 8:49 12:37 5:50 12:16
Berglund/COE 9:07 13:30 5:59 12:55
Szell/Cleveland 9:12 12:48 5:52 14:03
Vänskä/Lahti 9:14 14:25 5:57 14:55
Levi/Cleveland 9:15 12:47 5:30 13:22
Saraste/Finnish RSO 9:18 13:32 5:48 13:13
Szell/Concertgebouw 9:24 12:40 5:54 13:41
Bernstein/New York 9:25 14:43 5:41 14:34
Rozhdestvensky/Moscow 9:36 15:00 5:52 14:30
Davis/Boston 9:40 14:35 5:57 14:31
Davis/LSO Live 9:43 14:52 6:06 14:02
Maazel/Vienna 9:44 13:02 6:05 14:13
Berglund/Bournemouth 9:50 15:26 6:01 13:37
Sakari/Iceland 9:54 14:47 6:17 14:03
Blomstedt/San Fran 9:56 14:18 6:08 14:10
Segerstam/Helsinki 10:06 15:03 6:23 14:13
Davis/LSO RCA 10:13 15:25 6:07 14:45
Monteux/LSO 10:16 14:36 6:15 12:49
Celibidache/Swed RSO 10:16 16:03 5:49 14:21
Sanderling/Berlin SO 10:23 13:15 7:01 14:48
Barbirolli/Hallé 10:33 15:02 5:58 14:22
Ashkenazy/Philh 10:37 15:01 6:17 14:26
Bernstein/Vienna 10:54 18:02 6:23 15:57
Maazel/Pittsburgh 11:28 14:34 6:18 14:33
The Barbirolli/NYPO 24th of June 1940 is one of the most interesting I've heard as regards the phrasing; if one likes say the originality of Mengelberg, it's worth seeking out.
But the sound is obviously 'ancient'.
Timings are
8:23 12:32 5:43 12:21,
so very fast.
It's in the Membran Barbirolli 10cd box 224 043, for example.
That box has several interesting recordings IMHO, including 2 Mozart piano concertos (22 Fischer 1935, 27 Casadesus 1941) and a Beethoven Symphony 4 (NYPO 1936), plus an old but very melodical Grieg Concerto with Backhaus, with a trollish Finale.
The Dorati/Stockholm PO/RCA is also very impressive, in more modern sound, but it is 'grand' rather than 'feverish'. I just have the LP.
Quote from: kyjo on September 12, 2013, 01:12:59 PM
Cool, Jeffrey. 8) Will investigate the Monteux! Your description of the coda in this performance is quite enticing! Is it this recording?
[asin]B009TT08NW[/asin]
Yes it is Kyle and I'm only seven years late with this reply ::)
I still rate that recording very highly.
Barszelleux for me ! 8)
Quote from: André on April 14, 2020, 06:11:07 AM
Barszelleux for me ! 8)
Had to think twice, but supposedly Barbirolli stereo, Szell and Monteux ... got it :)
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 14, 2020, 06:20:57 AM
Had to think twice, but supposedly Barbirolli, Szell and Monteux ... got it :)
I would add Berglund/Bournemouth SO and Davis Boston SO to those
Quote from: MusicTurner on April 14, 2020, 06:20:57 AM
Had to think twice, but supposedly Barbirolli stereo, Szell and Monteux ... got it :)
Specifically: Barbirolli with the Royal Philharmonic, Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra in Tokyo AND with the Concertgebouw, and Monteux.
Quote from: André on April 14, 2020, 09:20:59 AM
Specifically: Barbirolli with the Royal Philharmonic, Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra in Tokyo AND with the Concertgebouw, and Monteux.
Those are my top three, too!
👍
Anyone familiar with Rouvali's recent release?
[asin]B082PPZTVB[/asin]