Mahler
Sibelius
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Vaughan Williams
Honegger
Holmboe
Tubin
Copland
Braga Santos
You mean as in "having their most significant works written in that century(ref Mahler)"?
I would add Bartok, Ligeti, Nielsen and Webern and ditch your four last (not that there is something wrong with them).
Schoenberg
Berg
Webern
Stravinsky
Shostakovich
Bartok
Sibelius
Nielsen
Vaughan Williams
Prokofiev
Your (op) list looks more like a 'favourite' list to me, not that there's anything wrong with that.
Avoiding all previously (before David) mentioned:
Janacek
Stravinsky
Schoenberg
Berg
Ravel
Debussy
Britten
Messiaen
Carter
Pärt
Quote from: The new erato on October 03, 2013, 01:20:32 PM
You mean as in "having their most significant works written in that century(ref Mahler)"?
I would add Bartok, Ligeti, Nielsen and Webern and ditch your four last (not that there is something wrong with them).
And of course I would add Stravinsky pushing out Honegger.
I should have had Debussy on my list. I wasn't thinking. I guess he would replace Nielsen. Ravel is one of the greats, but finding room for him is a tricky proposition.
Quote from: DavidW on October 03, 2013, 01:32:57 PM
I should have had Debussy on my list. I wasn't thinking. I guess he would replace Nielsen.
You're right. This is why I usually don't participate in threads like this.
Based on originality and influence mostly. The last pick may seem odd but film music was a huge musical part of the 20th Century. I picked no one from the second half of the century. Too early to pick a "great," I think; too early to know if composers like Ligetti, Boulez, Stockhausen will still be played 50 years from now (they are barely played now).
Mahler
Bartok
Debussy
Stravinsky
Schoenberg
Webern
Sibelius
Shostakovich
Janacek
Bernard Herrmann
Favorites:
Havergal Brian
Mahler
Vaughan Williams
Shostakovich
Nielsen
Strauss
Schmidt
Schoenberg
Sibelius
Prokofiev
I'll do greatest and favorites:
Greatest:
Sibelius
Schoenberg
Janacek
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Ives
Bartok
Stravinsky
VW
Debussy
Ravel
(I would categorize Mahler as late-romantic, otherwise I would have included him)
Favorites:
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Nielsen
Sibelius
VW
Bartok
Debussy
Ravel
Braga Santos
Atterberg
Quote from: vandermolen on October 03, 2013, 01:14:42 PM
Mahler
Sibelius
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Vaughan Williams
Honegger
Holmboe
Tubin
Copland
Braga Santos
You sure those aren't your favorites? ;)
Quote from: kyjo on October 03, 2013, 03:24:58 PM
I'll do greatest and favorites:
Greatest:
Sibelius
Schoenberg
Janacek
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Ives
Bartok
Stravinsky
VW
Debussy
Ravel
(I would categorize Mahler as late-romantic, otherwise I would have included him)
Looking back on my list, I should have probably included Webern, although I have never liked his music. There's no doubting his influence on a lot of late-20th century composers. I guess I'll replace Janacek with Webern. :-\
Quote from: DavidW on October 03, 2013, 01:32:57 PM
I should have had Debussy on my list. I wasn't thinking. I guess he would replace Nielsen.
Much as I love
Nielsen, you are dead right here,
Davey.
Quote from: kyjo on October 03, 2013, 03:24:58 PM
I'll do greatest and favorites:
Greatest:
Sibelius
Schoenberg
Janacek
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Ives
Bartok
Stravinsky
VW
Debussy
Ravel
Highly though I think of
Ives (and of course, native pride would
love for an American to be on such a list), I don't think we can really make the case for his necessary inclusion in the
Ten Greatest here.
The interesting thing about this thread, is that really the posts ought to trend towards a consensus . . . unlike the typical favorites thread, which basically plays out in a "those are your ten, great, here are my ten" manner (— not that there's anything wrong with that —) so that, given time, practically every composer who worked in the 20th century will eventually have been mentioned.
Yet, in the end, personal favourites are always at the base of the idea of greatness. At least in my list:
Debussy (Mahler is indeed late-romantic)
Nielsen
Falla
Janáček
Vaughan Williams
Bartók
Stravinsky
Shostakovich
Holmboe
Pärt
Quote from: Christo on October 04, 2013, 04:17:39 AM
Yet, in the end, personal favourites are always at the base of the idea of greatness.
Again, we agree to disagree ;)
Okay, so make the case for de Falla being a greater composer than (to choose one which dropped off your list) Schoenberg. I promise to find your argument musically interesting :)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2013, 03:58:01 AM
Highly though I think of Ives (and of course, native pride would love for an American to be on such a list), I don't think we can really make the case for his necessary inclusion in the Ten Greatest here.
Why not, Karl? Ives was way ahead of his time-wouldn't that make him "great"?
Quote from: kyjo on October 04, 2013, 04:58:31 AM
Why not, Karl? Ives was way ahead of his time-wouldn't that make him "great"?
I don't quarrel with
Ives's being
great, I don't know that his accomplishment drives his inclusion in the
Ten Greatest of the Century.
There is also the matter (consider it hearsay, since I've not done the research/reading myself, yet) that some of his ahead-of-time features were later revisions.
I suppose my core point here is that there were enough genuinely outstanding composers in the 20
th century, that the
Ten Greatest suffer no "cloud of question." And with our mighty New Englander . . .
it's complicated.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2013, 04:29:07 AM
Okay, so make the case for de Falla being a greater composer than (to choose one which dropped off your list) Schoenberg. I promise to find your argument musically interesting :)
;) Actually, I find
de Falla musically interesting.
Quote from: Christo on October 04, 2013, 05:20:17 AM
;) Actually, I find de Falla musically interesting.
As do I, no doubt about it.
As with
Ives (another consideration) . . .
de Falla's output is slight enough, I think it difficult to claim that he earns a place at a table, where more prolific greatness takes a ready seat.
Trying to be objective as I can here...
(In no particular order)
Debussy
Stravinsky
Ravel
Britten
Schoenberg
Shostakovich
Prokofiev
Bartok
Ligeti
Messiaen
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2013, 04:29:07 AM
Okay, so make the case for de Falla being a greater composer than (to choose one which dropped off your list) Schoenberg. I promise to find your argument musically interesting :)
The honest answer - I think I owe you one - is, that I simply
don't know how to rank Schönberg from the mid-1920s on. The composer of the Gurre Lieder is, no doubt, and even for me ;), one of the greatest ever. I have no clue, however, how posterity will judge the system he 'imposed' on part of the art music of the 20th Century. And I'm definitely not qualified to make a try myself. :)
Thanks for your post! That's a great topic, but I'm going to take it to the proper thread . . . .
Good list John.
Quote from: Christo on October 04, 2013, 05:57:17 AM
The honest answer - I think I owe you one - is, that I simply don't know how to rank Schönberg from the mid-1920s on. The composer of the Gurre Lieder is, no doubt, and even for me ;), one of the greatest ever. I have no clue, however, how posterity will judge the system he 'imposed' on part of the art music of the 20th Century. And I'm definitely not qualified to make a try myself. :)
In case you're interested (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,224.msg746946.html#msg746946) (and you may noy be) 0:)
Mahler
Sibelius
Strauss
Bartók
Stravinsky
Shostakovich
Debussy
Ravel
Schönberg
Prokofiev
I agree with James, that would simply result in singling out minor composers that are not nearly as influential as the greats. Who is Grisey and why does he warrant more attention than Berg, Webern, Debussy, Shostakovich etc?
Could you list some of those composers? What is the spectral style?
So many members are listing Mahler, but isn't he late-romantic, not 20th century? :-\
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 04, 2013, 06:31:14 AM
Mahler
Sibelius
Strauss
Bartók
Stravinsky
Shostakovich
Debussy
Ravel
Schönberg
Prokofiev
Strauss? Seriously? :D Other than that, nice list, Ilaria. :)
Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2013, 07:29:38 AM
See this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_music)
Reading that article, it doesn't sound like a school or even a style. It is a technique that some composers choose to include in their compositional process. Thanks for sharing the link.
Quote from: kyjo on October 04, 2013, 07:33:01 AM
So many members are listing Mahler, but isn't he late-romantic, not 20th century? :-\
I could have easily listed Mahler. Mahler's music is, or so I have read, seen as a link between Romanticism of the 19th Century and Modernism of the 20th Century. Mahler clearly had his foot in the door of the 20th Century, Kyle. He composed some of his greatest music in the first 10 years of the 20th Century.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2013, 07:37:30 AM
I could have easily listed Mahler. Mahler's music is, or so I have read, seen as a link between Romanticism of the 19th Century and Modernism of the 20th Century. Mahler clearly had his foot in the door of the 20th Century, Kyle. He composed some of his greatest music in the first 10 years of the 20th Century.
John, I'd be interesting in knowing what your father's favourites are for each individual Mahler symphony (recordings).
I remember you mentioning your father has nearly (if not all) Mahler recordings.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2013, 07:37:30 AM
I could have easily listed Mahler. Mahler's music is, or so I have read, seen as a link between Romanticism of the 19th Century and Modernism of the 20th Century. Mahler clearly had his foot in the door of the 20th Century, Kyle. He composed some of his greatest music in the first 10 years of the 20th Century.
True, John. I always consider Debussy to be the first real "20th century" composer, but, of course, your mileage may vary. :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on October 04, 2013, 07:40:09 AM
John, I'd be interesting in knowing what your father's favourites are for each individual Mahler symphony (recordings).
I remember you mentioning your father has nearly (if not all) Mahler recordings.
Yes, I'll have to ask him to compile a list, Ray. He hasn't kept up with the current crop of Mahler recordings on the market, but he owns every box set and tons of individual recordings that aren't boxed up.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 04, 2013, 07:42:43 AM
Yes, I'll have to ask him to compile a list, Ray. He hasn't kept up with the current crop of Mahler recordings on the market, but he owns every box set and tons of individual recordings that aren't boxed up.
That would be great, John! :)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 04, 2013, 06:15:54 AM
In case you're interested (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,224.msg746946.html#msg746946) (and you may noy be) 0:)
Yes, read with appreciation. :)
Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2013, 07:52:16 AM
I also think there are more than ten great composers from the 20th century. Using the term "greatest" is a red herring, IMO, it is like saying this is more infinite than that. Either a composer is great or not, among the greats, there is no greatest.
I still think this thread works. A
single greatest composer (even of the century) were the reddest of herrings. But unless we posit that
all great composers are equally great (which sets my own dodgi-o-meter twitching), I think discussing a set of ten exceptionally great composers has merits.
(* munches popcorn *)
Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2013, 08:10:13 AM
What I think is that a group of truly great composers can be identified (I think this kind of criteria can be found), but when it comes to saying which are greater than others then we have crossed over into personal preferences.
Well, to use an example wherewith I have already stuck my head on the chopping block in this very thread . . . you believe, then, that if I consider there to be arguments for
Stravinsky being actually a greater composer than
Ives, that either I am expressing a personal preference, or I am suggesting that
Ives is in fact less than great?
(And BTW this is an example of how I find value in the thread/discussion . . . the elusiveness of the ideas makes for a readily rich conversation.)
Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2013, 08:16:23 AM
... But try making a case that Stravinsky is a greater composer than, say, Schoenberg.
Oh, you certainly preach to the choir with that example 0:)
Quote from: kyjo on October 04, 2013, 07:33:01 AM
So many members are listing Mahler, but isn't he late-romantic, not 20th century? :-\
I don't understand your question. Is "20th century" a style of music? I thought it was a time period ;) Saying Mahler is not a 20th century composer is like saying Beethoven isn't a 19th century composer. Besides, there were a great many Late Romantics (stylistically) working from the turn of the century until WWII. After the war they're known as Neo-Romantics ;)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2013, 08:29:25 AM
I don't understand your question. Is "20th century" a style of music? I thought it was a time period ;) Saying Mahler is not a 20th century composer is like saying Beethoven isn't a 19th century composer. Besides, there were a great many Late Romantics (stylistically) working from the turn of the century until WWII. After the war they're known as Neo-Romantics ;)
Sarge
I agree, if they composed a single note as of January 1, 1901, then they can be considered! :)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2013, 08:29:25 AM
I don't understand your question. Is "20th century" a style of music? I thought it was a time period ;) Saying Mahler is not a 20th century composer is like saying Beethoven isn't a 19th century composer. Besides, there were a great many Late Romantics (stylistically) working from the turn of the century until WWII. After the war they're known as Neo-Romantics ;)
Sarge
OK, you win, Sarge! ;) Mahler's a 20th century composer then. But that means I'll have to make an extra spot on my list for him......
VMT (very many thanks) for all the replies. Probably I should have included Nielsen, Debussy and Stravinsky on my original list. I guess that I was still influenced by those composers whose music I play a lot (ie 'favourites' ::)) especially in relation to the last four on my list. I would stick with Honegger however. Surprised by lack of reference to Britten.
Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2013, 08:25:01 AM
One suggestion for judging greatness: s/he has impacted his and successive generations such that other composers were obviously influenced by it.[/b]
Of course, which is why I based my list
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2013, 02:42:39 PM
on originality and influence
And that's fairly easy to ascertain. It's the reason all our lists are going to be more alike than not (as Karl noted).
Sarge
Quote from: kyjo on October 04, 2013, 08:32:51 AM
OK, you win, Sarge! ;) Mahler's a 20th century composer then. But that means I'll have to make an extra spot on my list for him......
There's
always room for Mahler 8)
Sarge
Quote from: kyjo on October 03, 2013, 03:26:22 PM
You sure those aren't your favorites? ;)
Hehe :)
Ok then here are favourites.
Miaskovsky
Vaughan Williams
Tubin
Rubbra
Bax
Bate
Glazunov
Copland
Bridge
Moeran
Quote from: vandermolen on October 04, 2013, 11:19:30 AM
Hehe :)
Ok then here are favourites.
Miaskovsky
Vaughan Williams
Tubin
Rubbra
Bax
Bate
Glazunov
Copland
Bridge
Moeran
No Braga Santos?! ??? ???
Quote from: kyjo on October 04, 2013, 11:21:26 AM
No Braga Santos?! ??? ???
He's on my 'Great' list 8)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 04, 2013, 11:24:08 AM
He's on my 'Great' list 8)
Yeah, but still, he's not one of your favorites?! I would have thought he would be on your "favorites" list but not your "great" list. Also surprised to see no Shostakovich on your "favorites" list. :)
Quote from: kyjo on October 04, 2013, 11:26:10 AM
Yeah, but still, he's not one of your favorites?! I would have thought he would be on your "favorites" list but not your "great" list. Also surprised to see no Shostakovich on your "favorites" list. :)
I have too many favourites. :)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 04, 2013, 11:38:40 AM
I have too many favourites. :)
Nothing wrong with that. ;)