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The Music Room => General Classical Music Discussion => Topic started by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 02:22:12 PM

Title: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 02:22:12 PM
I was just wondering who members think are previously "unsung" composers who recently have or are in the process of entering the pantheon of the greats or are featuring more frequently on concert programs.

One of the foremost of these is, deservedly, Szymanowski. There was hardly any interest in his music before Rattle came onto the scene and produced marvelous recordings of most of his orchestral works. There are two ongoing series of Szymanowski's orchestral music: Gergiev/LSO on LSO Live, and Gardner/BBC SO on Chandos. My point is further evidenced by the fact that two major artists who usually stick to the core repertoire, Boulez and Teltzaff, recorded some Szymanowski on a major label (DG). His VC 1 is now being performed by world-class violinists and features comparatively frequently on concert programs. I'm sure his other works will follow VC 1's lead, examining current trends.

Do you guys agree with me about Szymanowski? What are some other composers you feel are entering the pantheon? 
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
I don't know about "entering the pantheon" but I've noticed some upticks.

Among more recent composers, Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Messiaen and Schnittke seem to be holding steady, and even increasing their performances. Ligeti's piano etudes in particular are almost standard rep now.

Martinu is getting played more, and recorded more too, than he was only a couple of decades ago.

Also, this may just be a regional thing, but I've noticed that British composers are getting a lot more exposure in the US than they used to. (I'm hearing Walton Sym. #1 this Saturday in fact.)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 02:41:34 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
Also, this may just be a regional thing, but I've noticed that British composers are getting a lot more exposure in the US than they used to. (I'm hearing Walton Sym. #1 this Saturday in fact.)

The Elgar First is being performed in Ludwigshafen next week by the Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz!  :o

Sarge
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
Martinu is getting played more, and recorded more too, than he was only a couple of decades ago.

Totally agree! I meant to mention Martinu in my first post. (Nice alliteration, if I say so myself 8))
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 02:51:44 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 02:42:22 PM
I meant to mention Martinu

A born poet, you are  ;)

Sarge
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 02:59:25 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 02:51:44 PM
A born poet, you are  ;)

Sarge

Alliteration was my only saving grace when it came to writing poems in grade school! :D
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Brian on October 23, 2013, 03:22:03 PM
Martinu was the first name that came to mind. Janacek is still relatively new in the USA but is making fast progress; just a few years ago his Sinfonietta was presented at a concert I attended as a "true rarity" the conductor felt privileged to be able to lead.

The Austin (TX) Symphony recently did Szymanowski's Fourth with Emanuel Ax. So actually this thread so far seems pretty spot-on.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Martinu and Janacek entered the pantheon quite awhile ago. The Szymanowski example is better, he was underrepresented. 

Just as interesting are baroque era composers that are not Handel, Bach or Vivaldi being performed, recorded and written about more than they used to be.

Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 23, 2013, 03:42:04 PM
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 02:41:34 PM
The Elgar First is being performed in Ludwigshafen next week by the Staatsphilharmonie Rheinland-Pfalz!  :o

Cool  8) wish I could be there.

Quote from: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Just as interesting are baroque era composers that are not Handel, Bach or Vivaldi being performed, recorded and

Rameau might be a good example here, in terms of getting more mainstream recognition. What complicates things is that increasingly anything pre-1800 is becoming the property of specialist period-instrument performers.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 03:48:33 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
Also, this may just be a regional thing, but I've noticed that British composers are getting a lot more exposure in the US than they used to. (I'm hearing Walton Sym. #1 this Saturday in fact.)

I dunno about that! I can't remember the last time I saw an Elgar (besides the Enigma Variations), VW, Walton, or Britten work on a US concert program, let alone the music of Arnold, Alwyn, Bantock, Rubbra, or Bax. :(
Title: Re: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 04:01:00 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 03:48:33 PM
... let alone the music of Arnold, Alwyn, Bantock, Rubbra, or Bax. :(

Well, they aren't entering the pantheon! ;D

Not all that long ago, we heard Gerontius and the RVW Sixth at Symphony. And I played in the pit for Albert Herring.
Title: Re: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 04:01:58 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 03:48:33 PM
... let alone the music of Arnold, Alwyn, Bantock, Rubbra, or Bax. :(

Well, they aren't entering the pantheon! ;D

Not all that long ago, we heard Gerontius and the RVW Sixth at Symphony. And I played in the pit for Albert Herring.
Title: Re: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 04:03:39 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2013, 04:01:00 PM
Well, they aren't entering the pantheon! ;D

You don't have to rub it in! ;D
Title: Re: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 03:48:33 PM
... let alone the music of Arnold, Alwyn, Bantock, Rubbra, or Bax. :(

Well, they aren't entering the pantheon! ;D

Not all that long ago, we heard Gerontius and the RVW Sixth at Symphony. And I played in the pit for Albert Herring.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: amw on October 23, 2013, 04:12:38 PM
Quote from: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Just as interesting are baroque era composers that are not Handel, Bach or Vivaldi being performed, recorded and written about more than they used to be.
Indeed. Marc-Antoine Charpentier and HIF v Biber's stars seems to be on the rise lately in particular.

Among more modern composers, there seems to be quite a lot of Elliott Carter out there considering how difficult his music is to play. Ligeti as well.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 04:19:57 PM
Karl? You alright there? :D
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 04:35:52 PM
Me, I'm fine. My connection was a little dodgy :)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 23, 2013, 04:41:28 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 03:48:33 PM
I dunno about that! I can't remember the last time I saw an Elgar (besides the Enigma Variations), VW, Walton, or Britten work on a US concert program, let alone the music of Arnold, Alwyn, Bantock, Rubbra, or Bax. :(

Just in the last year, I've been to concerts featuring Elgar, VW, Arnold, and Holst, and missed other concerts featuring them (including a Gerontius in Milwaukee) as well as Britten and others.  :)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 05:17:07 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 04:41:28 PM
Just in the last year, I've been to concerts featuring Elgar, VW, Arnold, and Holst, and missed other concerts featuring them (including a Gerontius in Milwaukee) as well as Britten and others.  :)

Consider yourself lucky! :) I'll have to start checking concert programs around the US more often, as I wasn't aware of this trend.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 23, 2013, 05:47:24 PM
A strange question. What is this pantheon and who is already in it? I'll bet we can't agree on that. I mean, what are entrance criteria? As a result, we'll never agree on the rest.
Title: Re: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 05:48:05 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 23, 2013, 05:47:24 PM
A strange question. What is this pantheon and who is already in it? I'll bet we can't agree on that. I mean, what are entrance criteria? As a result, we'll never agree on the rest.

Bet you're right! :)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 06:12:00 PM
Oh dear! Why does every thread I start have to bring about a debate on the meaning of a word! :(
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 06:13:44 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
I don't know about "entering the pantheon" but I've noticed some upticks.

Among more recent composers, Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Messiaen and Schnittke seem to be holding steady, and even increasing their performances. Ligeti's piano etudes in particular are almost standard rep now.

Martinu is getting played more, and recorded more too, than he was only a couple of decades ago.

Also, this may just be a regional thing, but I've noticed that British composers are getting a lot more exposure in the US than they used to. (I'm hearing Walton Sym. #1 this Saturday in fact.)

Schnittke, Lutoslawski, and Ligeti are great choices. I don't think I agree with you about the British composers. I mean sure you'll get Holst, RVW, or Elgar on a concert program, but not much else, but hearing Walton's 1st would be great and is definitely a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 06:12:00 PM
Oh dear! Why does every thread I start have to bring about a debate on the meaning of a word! :(

You're just a controversial guy I guess, Kyle. :)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 06:39:57 PM
Maybe it's like the Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame: wait long enough, and everybody will be nominated!
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 06:44:51 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
You're just a controversial guy I guess, Kyle. :)

I don't try to be! :)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 07:10:23 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 06:44:51 PM
I don't try to be! :)

I wish I could say the same for myself. ;)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 07:29:10 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 02:22:12 PM
Do you guys agree with me about Szymanowski?

Yep, I certainly agree about Szymanowski. It seems he's finally getting the 'nod' from the classical music establishment. It's about damn time! Hopefully, I'll be able to see at least one work of Szymanowski's music performed.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 08:03:51 PM
I would like to see Weinberg enter at least some of the regular concert repertoire. I think if an audience heard a work like Cello Concerto or even Symphony No. 5, many people may come away wanting to hear more. I certainly do think Weinberg deserves concert repertoire status.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: springrite on October 23, 2013, 10:03:11 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 23, 2013, 06:19:57 PM
You're just a controversial guy I guess, Kyle. :)

You both.

Or should I just say you, yes.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 23, 2013, 11:37:46 PM
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 23, 2013, 05:47:24 PM
A strange question.
Thanks, mc. I didn't want to have to be the one to say it. :)

But now that you've broken the ice....

Kyjo, I agree that you are not controversial. You do take things for granted that not everyone else does, however. Things that many people take for granted, true. Perhaps most. Things that shouldn't be taken for granted, however. Things that should be questioned. Things that should not be blindly accepted.

That's why it looks like you're being controversial. Your posts cause some consternation among those of us who do not accept the things you just take for granted. So there's often a lot of activity in that regard. A lot of questioning of your premises and such.

I wouldn't call that controversial, either, though.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 24, 2013, 03:15:44 AM
Anyway, I don't call it controversy, I call it discussion. An activity which, as a rule, I find more fulfilling than cheerleading ;D
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: DavidW on October 24, 2013, 05:04:40 AM
Whoever said Ligeti and Carter, I agree with.  I think they are the Brahms and Wagner for our time, and will be part of the canon.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: North Star on October 24, 2013, 05:28:57 AM
Ligeti, Carter, Dutilleux, Schnittke, Lutoslawski, Hartmann, and Villa-Lobos should definitely be in the Pandemonium Pantheon.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Sean on October 24, 2013, 05:40:52 AM
Well at least you folks are trying to keep the repertory, as I'd call it, in mind. Last time I checked it was sinking from view under the likes of the everything-by-everyone-and-his-dog-is-equal postmodern Amazon or CD store.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: North Star on October 24, 2013, 05:55:33 AM
Quote from: sanantonio on October 24, 2013, 05:36:30 AM
Looks like this thread could be combined with the thread on "your favorite 20th century composers" with no damage to continuity.

;)
Well it would be strange if there wasn't any correlation, especially in group with a reasonable number of people.

Would be cool if Messiaen, the spectralists, and Xenakis were in the standard repertoire. And Varèse. And post-Sacre Stravinsky.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: not edward on October 24, 2013, 06:20:12 AM
Without having any figures to support it, my guess would be that Martinu and Ligeti are the most obvious examples. There seems to have been a great increase in the number of Martinu performances outside of the Czech republic, while Ligeti's perceived stature just seems to keep growing. Amongst performers under 50 or so, it's probably easier to name those who don't play the piano etudes or the violin concerto than those who do.

It's rather sad that in his later years Ligeti was convinced that once he died, interest in his music would rapidly fade away.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 24, 2013, 06:34:12 AM
Quote from: edward on October 24, 2013, 06:20:12 AM
It's rather sad that in his later years Ligeti was convinced that once he died, interest in his music would rapidly fade away.

Apparently Brahms thought the same way, so he's in good company.

Quote from: Sean on October 24, 2013, 05:40:52 AM
Last time I checked it was sinking from view under the likes of the everything-by-everyone-and-his-dog-is-equal postmodern Amazon or CD store.

What is this sentence even supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: CRCulver on October 24, 2013, 07:45:53 AM
Concert programming is so different from country to country these days that it no longer makes sense to speak of one "standard repertoire". In Helsinki, there's been much more Schoenberg on offer than Brahms in recent years, but American concertgoers would not see Schoenberg as a standard.

Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PMAmong more recent composers ... Schnittke ... seems to be holding steady, and even increasing their performances.

Is this really the case? It seems to me (and I've heard the same complaint from those who have followed Schnittke's music from his first exposure in the West) that Schnittke's popularity fell drastically after his death. It was easier to attract audiences to his music when his music could be tied into the larger Cold War polemics ("look at this rebellious composer from the oppressive USSR!"). The major labels were regularly releasing CDs of his works and major US and UK ensembles were taking up even his more challenging works. That's all gone now, and what little support remains for him tends to be his most lightweight pieces like Moz-Art à la Haydn or (K)ein Sommernachtstraum.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Mirror Image on October 24, 2013, 07:47:25 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on October 24, 2013, 07:45:53 AM
Is this really the case? It seems to me (and I've heard the same complaint from those who have followed Schnittke's music from his first exposure in the West) that Schnittke's popularity fell drastically after his death. It was easier to attract audiences to his music when his music could be tied into the larger Cold War polemics ("look at this rebellious composer from the oppressive USSR!"). The major labels were regularly releasing CDs of his works and major US and UK ensembles were taking up even his more challenging works. That's all gone now, and what little support remains for him tends to be his most lightweight pieces like Moz-Art à la Haydn or (K)ein Sommernachtstraum.

A fair point for sure, CRCulver. If I'm still around, it will be interesting to see what happens to Schnittke's legacy 20-30 years from now. Well he died in 1998 and in 2008 nothing happened, let's see if 2018 holds anything for dear old Alfred.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 24, 2013, 08:08:11 AM
Quote from: CRCulver on October 24, 2013, 07:45:53 AM
Is this really the case? It seems to me (and I've heard the same complaint from those who have followed Schnittke's music from his first exposure in the West) that Schnittke's popularity fell drastically after his death.

I'm going by my personal experience, mainly in Prague and Moscow in the last decade or so. Come to think of it, I can't recall many American performances of Schnittke. Maybe that ties into your point about variations in programming between countries.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 24, 2013, 08:52:03 AM
Quote from: Sean on October 24, 2013, 05:40:52 AMsinking from view
Ah, if only it could be true!

Quote from: Sean on October 24, 2013, 05:40:52 AMunder the likes of the everything-by-everyone-and-his-dog-is-equal
OK, I acknowledge that there may indeed be some people who think this way. But I hasten to the point out that I only see this view articulated by people who do not hold it. That is, it only appears in the context of "this is what those people think about things."

As possibly one of those people, I would like to affirm that I, at the very least, do not think everything is equal. Nor far as I know do any of my fellows who question the utility of "the repertoire" (not "repertory," Sean--one is not the less snooty version of the other; they do point to different things) think that everything is equal.

The point, if it's not too fine a point, is that the whole concept of equality is flawed. Or rather, the concept of ranking. Not a very popular position to take on GMG, but "oh well."

We, or to keep it strictly accurate--I, are not saying that everything is equal. What I am saying is that it is possible and even desirable to look at each thing for what it is itself. Or, more to the point, it is possible and even desirable to see that each thing is potentially part of a dynamic relationship with a human person. And the relationship is the real thing.

The cliche that beauty is in the eye of the beholder is a much used distortion of that truth. Beauty is neither in the thing NOR in the eye (or ear) but in the dynamic relationship between the two.

That is, apparently, a frightening or at least an aggravating notion for a lot of people. Gone is the security, the safety, of a fixed reality, independent of any observers. Gone, too, is the special clique of cognescenti who see the fixed reality more clearly and more accurately than anyone else (truly the most pernicious of illusions).* Gone, in short, is the static reality. In its place is the real reality, which is dynamic. And dynamic is not something that stays the same for all the ages.

"Dynamic, static, dynamic, static, dynamic, static."

"Static, please."

"Too bad."

*This reality, which is independent of observers, is only truly understood by this observer, me. It is what it is, independent of me, but I am the only one (or one of the select few) who sees it for what it is. Cake and eat it too, boy howdy.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 24, 2013, 10:10:39 AM
C'mon, dude, who's your favorite unsung 21st-c. composer!!!
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 24, 2013, 10:12:23 AM
Quote from: Velimir on October 24, 2013, 08:08:11 AM
I'm going by my personal experience, mainly in Prague and Moscow in the last decade or so. Come to think of it, I can't recall many American performances of Schnittke. Maybe that ties into your point about variations in programming between countries.

Could argue that it was Kremer's guest appearance here in Boston which drove the programming of the Cto grosso № 5. (I think it was № 5 . . . .)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: not edward on October 24, 2013, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 24, 2013, 10:12:23 AM
Could argue that it was Kremer's guest appearance here in Boston which drove the programming of the Cto grosso № 5. (I think it was № 5 . . . .)
Would make sense as it is a violin concerto in all but name and was written for Kremer.

It doesn't seem to have had a particularly good press, and I'm not sure who else (if anyone) has taken it up.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 24, 2013, 01:43:02 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 06:12:00 PM
Oh dear! Why does every thread I start have to bring about a debate on the meaning of a word! :(
No offense, but why can't you explain yourself better? If you want members to participate, shouldn't there be some sort of common understanding of what is being asked? If you look at a top 100 list  (for example, this one: http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-comp.html (http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best-classic-comp.html), and not implying this ordering is correct), where is the cutoff? Top 10? Top 25? Top 50? All 100?  How can you and I have a discourse (let alone all of us) if we don't understand each other's point of reference? Is the pantheon a group that is historically important? Most influential? Most popular? Personal favorites? All of the above? Or is it a hall of fame? Or perhaps you mean a personal pantheon unique to each of us?

On the other hand, there is a physical pantheon of sorts already in existence (and perhaps more than one - the Budapest opera has busts all over the top of the outside of the building come to think of it). But I was thinking of the old opera in Paris, where there are statues/busts of some of the most famous composers that lived all around the building. Are you perhaps asking what other busts should be added to those already there? 

Or perhaps you are asking something else and I have not quite grasped that, in which case an explanation would reveal that too.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 24, 2013, 01:55:51 PM
Offering my own definition (if I even have one) would just lead to more debate, which I most certainly do not want. I think we better get back on topic and debate suggestions given by members rather than the meaning of the word "pantheon".
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: vandermolen on October 24, 2013, 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: Velimir on October 23, 2013, 02:37:04 PM
I don't know about "entering the pantheon" but I've noticed some upticks.

Among more recent composers, Lutoslawski, Ligeti, Messiaen and Schnittke seem to be holding steady, and even increasing their performances. Ligeti's piano etudes in particular are almost standard rep now.

Martinu is getting played more, and recorded more too, than he was only a couple of decades ago.

Also, this may just be a regional thing, but I've noticed that British composers are getting a lot more exposure in the US than they used to. (I'm hearing Walton Sym. #1 this Saturday in fact.)

That's very exciting about the Walton - hope you enjoy it. One of my favourite works.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 24, 2013, 01:56:52 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 24, 2013, 10:10:39 AM
C'mon, dude, who's your favorite unsung 21st-c. composer!!!
This made me laugh out loud at four minutes to midnight, waking my cat, but hopefully none of my neighbors. :laugh:
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 24, 2013, 04:31:59 PM
Adjectives are great, aren't they?

You need a little discreet poison for your well, some time? Just drop in a wee adjective there. You won't even have to argue the point, really. The adjective's already there, already done its damage.

Just remember, a little poison goes a long ways.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: jochanaan on October 24, 2013, 06:50:12 PM
Quote from: some guy on October 24, 2013, 08:52:03 AM
...Gone is the security, the safety, of a fixed reality, independent of any observers. Gone, too, is the special clique of cognescenti who see the fixed reality more clearly and more accurately than anyone else (truly the most pernicious of illusions).* Gone, in short, is the static reality. In its place is the real reality, which is dynamic...
Did "the static reality" ever really exist?  Even on Fifties television? :o

Composers' popularities are always growing and decreasing, a sort of crescendo and diminuendo of reputations.  In many early 20th-century music-appreciation books, Rimsky-Korsakov was ranked above Tchaikovsky for quality and popularity; but now very few people would rank Peter Ilyich lower than Nikolai.  Eighty years ago very few in this country would even have heard of Bruckner and Mahler, but look where their music is now!  So the "pantheon" is always experiencing addition and subtraction.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: DavidW on October 24, 2013, 08:09:29 PM
I think that we should throw the pantheon part in the dumpster, and just focus on who is being performed a lot more than they used to?  Looking at Kyjo's post I think that is really what he wanted to talk about.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: amw on October 24, 2013, 09:33:10 PM
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 24, 2013, 09:01:57 PM
As usual Sean makes no sense...

I used to think that too, but the more I read from him, the more sense he started to make. Turns out he's just a sociopath.

(Luckily he seems to be a fairly benign sociopath, he hasn't killed or raped anyone I'm aware of, but his complete disdain and lack of empathy for his fellow human beings disturbs me enough that I prefer not to read his posts.)

Quote from: DavidW on October 24, 2013, 08:09:29 PM
I think that we should throw the pantheon part in the dumpster, and just focus on who is being performed a lot more than they used to?  Looking at Kyjo's post I think that is really what he wanted to talk about.
That's what I've been doing more or less the whole time. It's obviously easy to argue about the definition of the "standard repertoire", and I don't believe there is just one "standard repertoire" for that matter—e.g. the big orchestras have one standard rep of Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler, etc, the opera houses have another standard rep of Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, etc, the new-music ensembles have their Schoenberg-Webern-Boulez-Xenakis-etc pantheon, pianists have Alkan and Medtner and Liszt and now possibly Sorabji, unsung-masterpieces alternative-musicology people on internet forums have Braga Santos and Brian and Atterberg and Langgaard and so forth (I never see any of them complaining about the undeserved neglect in which, say, Jean-Pierre Guézec or Ruth Crawford Seeger languish :P) and so on ad infinitum. And all of these niche repertoires are not a result of fragmenting in the 60s or whatever but have always, more or less, been around, as well as the national differences someone pointed out above (even in the 18th or 19th century you'd hear very different things in London than in Leipzig or St Petersburg). Which makes any debate about the definition a bit pointless.

Actually, another new repertoire addition might be non-symphonic, non-string quartet Haydn; there seems to have been a massive explosion of interest in the sonatas, trios, concertos, divertimenti, masses, etc (plus the earlier symphonies and quartets; previously one would rarely find anything earlier than Op. 33 or the "Paris" sets) in the last 20 years or so. Perhaps it goes back further than that and I just haven't been paying attention. There does seem to be much more Haydn around than there used to be though.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: relm1 on October 25, 2013, 12:42:25 AM
A few composers who seem to have increasingly more performances are Einojuhani Rautavaara (especially the arctic bird piece and violin concerto), Jennifer higdon(she's actually becoming quite popular in concert programming), Thomas Ades, and Charles Ives. 
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 25, 2013, 01:38:22 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on October 24, 2013, 06:50:12 PM
Did "the static reality" ever really exist?
Bingo!!
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 25, 2013, 02:25:51 AM
Quote from: DavidW on October 24, 2013, 08:09:29 PM
I think that we should throw the pantheon part in the dumpster, and just focus on who is being performed a lot more than they used to?  Looking at Kyjo's post I think that is really what he wanted to talk about.

You are totally right, David! I should've never included that "pantheon" part in the first place. Gosh, I gotta be so careful around here! ::) ;D
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: kyjo on October 25, 2013, 02:32:03 AM
Quote from: relm1 on October 25, 2013, 12:42:25 AM
A few composers who seem to have increasingly more performances are Einojuhani Rautavaara (especially the arctic bird piece and violin concerto), Jennifer higdon(she's actually becoming quite popular in concert programming), Thomas Ades, and Charles Ives.

Thank you, once again, for adhering to the topic of this thread :) :)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 25, 2013, 02:57:34 AM
Quote from: kyjo on October 25, 2013, 02:25:51 AMGosh, I gotta be so careful around here! ::) ;D
You are otherwise ordinarily careless? In your personal relations? In your job? :P

Just by the way, getting rid of "pantheon" but leaving "standard repertoire" intact is to do exactly nothing.

Careless!! ;D

Here's something worth trying: listen to everything. Ignore what other people have said or are saying about what you're listening to. You have two ears. Use 'em! Now, did you have some good experiences with some of that "everything"? Let us know about it, why not? We like music, too.

Anyway, just a thought.

Someone I've found who repays repeated listenings but who does not get many performances (any performances?) outside Europe is Luc Ferrari. Amazingly diverse output, too. Acoustic, electroacoustic, mixed. Written out works, improvisation, works assembled from field recordings (assembled so as to create the illusion of simply turning the mic on--his Presque rien series is an obvious nod to Cage). Some stuff of his I find really tacky and annoying, too. Which means he was doing exactly what he should have been doing, creating what he wanted to create without thinking about what I would like or not. After all, we never met. ;) (Though I did see him in the lobby at a show once. And my oldest son went up to him and said, "Hey! You're Luc Ferrari!" Which made him grin.)

I also get a lot out of Francisco Lopez's music. And that is quite a lot in more ways than one, as Lopez has put out a lot of music. Also a lot of diversity. Or at least, every time I try to describe him to someone, I find myself saying saying, "oh but then there's..." over and over again. Kairos, which doesn't usually present Lopez's kind of music, has put out a five CD set of it, which is as good a place as any to start, I suppose.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2013, 07:21:02 AM
I have cleaned up this thread a bit, I expect that Sean won't be posting in it any longer in the interest of maintaining good relations with the group. If he were to be that injudicious, I would expect the grownups among us to have the good sense to ignore and carry on.

Gurn
8)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 27, 2013, 08:38:24 AM
Wait a minute! Are you saying that there are grownups among us?

What?

(That changes everything....)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2013, 09:54:11 AM
Quote from: some guy on October 27, 2013, 08:38:24 AM
Wait a minute! Are you saying that their are grownups among us?

What?

(That changes everything....)

Somewhere, if we look hard enough.... :)

8)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Sean on October 27, 2013, 04:08:48 PM
I won't post...

I tried some Ferrari though, Petite symphonie intuitive pour un paysage de printemps which is mostly dreamy and the shorter Visage No.5 which is very choppy in an interesting antiphonal way that Stockhausen was to improve on...
Title: Re: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2013, 03:06:00 AM
Quote from: Sean on October 27, 2013, 04:08:48 PM
I won't post...

I cannot be the only one who got a belly-laugh from this apparently unwitting irony....
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 28, 2013, 12:31:21 PM
Quote from: Sean on October 27, 2013, 04:08:48 PM
an interesting antiphonal way that Stockhausen was to improve on...

Wow, Sean said Stockhausen "improved on" something? Good Lord, what is the world coming to?

???
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Sean on October 28, 2013, 01:06:54 PM
Stockhausen must be the greatest serial composer.

That's not saying a great deal.

But credit where it's due.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: North Star on October 28, 2013, 01:18:13 PM
Serial as in 'serial killer', sure.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 28, 2013, 01:38:13 PM
Gurn,

I'm not sure that this whole "grownup" thing is all it's cracked up to be.

But OK. I do recall when I was substitute teaching in high school and junior high advising people to ignore outrageous and egregiously stupid remarks.

I seem to have regressed myself from that lofty eminence. (That is, if I ever occupied said eminence. I may have never actually taken my own advice, you know.)

Anyway, just sayin'.

Your friend,

Michael
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2013, 04:10:20 PM
Quote from: some guy on October 28, 2013, 01:38:13 PM
Gurn,

I'm not sure that this whole "grownup" thing is all it's cracked up to be.

But OK. I do recall when I was substitute teaching in high school and junior high advising people to ignore outrageous and egregiously stupid remarks.

I seem to have regressed myself from that lofty eminence. (That is, if I ever occupied said eminence. I may have never actually taken my own advice, you know.)

Anyway, just sayin'.

Your friend,

Michael

Michael,
Yes, I can see we have some way to go. A copy to each of the AARP magazine, Modern Maturity might just be the order of the day. It almost makes me think that the complaints about wild behavior were merely part of the intrinsic enjoyment of wild behavior.  :-\

C'mon, chaps, let's focus: pantheon....   ::)

8)
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
Pantheon raid!
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: ibanezmonster on October 28, 2013, 06:47:29 PM
Quote from: kyjo on October 23, 2013, 06:12:00 PM
Oh dear! Why does every thread I start have to bring about a debate on the meaning of a word! :(
That's GMG in general.
Like my "underrated composers" thread... people can't just have fun and go with it, but have to philosophize and analyze the meaning of the word "underrated."  ::) Hopefully that type of attention to detail is put to use in a good way in real life.
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: some guy on October 28, 2013, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 28, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
Pantheon raid!
Best post of the year award!!

Quote from: Greg on October 28, 2013, 06:47:29 PM...people can't just have fun and go with it, but have to philosophize and analyze the meaning of the word "underrated."
Yes, way more fun to talk without knowing what we're talking about, to talk at cross-purposes because everyone has a different idea as to what's going on. Yeah. Much more fun.

(What makes you think that philosophizing and analyzing aren't fun? Though speaking for myself, I must say it does get a bit tedious feeling I have to clear away the underbrush every fricking time before I can even "have fun" on a thread. "Go with it" is all well and good, but if you don't know what the hell "it" is, then what is it you're going with?

Perhaps a bit more care on the thread starting end of things? You know, just in general. :))
Title: Re: Composers who are entering the pantheon/standard repertoire
Post by: jochanaan on October 29, 2013, 10:27:24 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on October 28, 2013, 04:27:26 PM
Pantheon raid!
:laugh: :laugh:

Of course, as long as we're discussing the meaning of words, does the use of pantheon mean, as the Greek root might suggest, that certain composers are "gods"? :o