I've been listening to classical music for a few years now. I like, or at least I'm open to, pretty much all styles from the middle ages to the many genres of contemporary music.
However, I find listening to operas and oratorios quite difficult - non-English ones in particular, because reading the translations while listening is quite distracting to me, even somewhat laborious. It feels like 70% of my concentration goes to reading the text and keeping up with it. Perhaps the fact that English is not my maiden language (as you may have noticed) makes it more difficult. (The booklets never have translations in my language.)
So, I'd like to ask you people how you deal with this issue? Would it make sense to just listen without understanding what is sung? Or perhaps study the libretto thoroughly first?
Quote from: xaduci on February 20, 2014, 05:06:35 AM
I've been listening to classical music for a few years now. I like, or at least I'm open to, pretty much all styles from the middle ages to the many genres of contemporary music.
However, I find listening to operas and oratorios quite difficult - non-English ones in particular, because reading the translations while listening is quite distracting to me, even somewhat laborious. It feels like 70% of my concentration goes to reading the text and keeping up with it. Perhaps the fact that English is not my maiden language (as you may have noticed) makes it more difficult. (The booklets never have translations in my language.)
So, I'd like to ask you people how you deal with this issue? Would it make sense to just listen without understanding what is sung? Or perhaps study the libretto thoroughly first?
Firstly, welcome to the forum. Most of us here speak rather motley English so yours will probably be top of the heap. :)
I have this same issue. When I
have a libretto, I do study it in advance so I know at least the gist of what I am listening to. Not being multi-track capable, I find it much too difficult to read and listen simultaneously. I have no problem at all with listening in total non-comprehension. I did it all day at school and now at work, so I am well practiced at it. :) As long as I know the story it is the music I want anyway. :)
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Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2014, 07:36:45 AM
Not being multi-track capable, I find it much too difficult to read and listen simultaneously. I have no problem at all with listening in total non-comprehension. I did it all day at school and now at work, so I am well practiced at it. :)
:D ;D :D
A good joke, but also -as usually with good jokes- a monumental truth. :)
Welcome xaduci!
Ah, this is an eternal problem. I have two modes of listening to opera: 1) Just listen and you get what you get, and 2) Follow along. I find the second often helps with the first. But when I start a new opera, I read the synopsis first to understand: what is going on and who are the main characters. Once I have this info, listening is easier since the main characters generally sing throughout and it is just a matter of matching the voice to the character (often made easier when certain singers are singing - like Callas, Domingo, etc.). If you can recognize the voices, this will help a lot. The tenor is often the protagonist, the soprano the love interest, and the baritone the third wheel or bad guy. While this does not always work, it is loosely true. Thus, even not knowing the story (but hopefully you will), you have some general idea of events (or you can pretend in your head).
For example, if you are listening to la Traviata, you can listen for these three voices and you will be generally in good shape (the baritone is not the bad guy per se, but the father, so still that authority figure). Knowing the general events will help a lot too. On the other hand, if it is La Boheme, well we'd be 2/3 correct. So still hepful, but some flexibility needed.
I often stop or repeat when I listen to opera - a beautiful moment to relisten, a pause to read what the 'duelling' voices are about, and so on. So there is some learning curve for every opera. But soon enough, you won't need the libretto at all to enjoy it, or you will know it well enough to read along without being distracted.
Of course, if you have the opportunity to watch an opera (live, video), you may enjoy this more as a starting point.
In this regard, certain operas may be better starting points than others. Thus, my suggestions would be:
Humperdinck: Hansel and Gretal (you probably know this story, which makes it easier)
Puccini: La Boheme (basically a love story, so you can get away without knowing every word)
Any of the Shakespeare operas, where you might already know the story (like Verdi's Otello)
Mozart's Mariage of Figaro: A hilarious opera that is enjoyable to read even without the music. But the music is fantastic.
Don't hesitate to listen to small sections - whatever works. My only real advice would be not to make it a chore and to enjoy the process.
The above advice is very good. I would simply say: Keep listening with the translations in hand! With practice you will find it less of a distraction, and eventually it should not be as much of a problem.
(Cato is a schoolteacher, so one should expect such advice! 0: )
Can you read music? An alternative is to follow the score with a bi-lingual libretto.
My chance to plug Four Saints in Three Acts by Virgil Thomson. The libretto is by Gertrude Stein and is basically meaningless. Nothing to follow! Thomson even set the stage directions.
Read the librettos in advance, and remember important cue points--first lines of arias, etc. That way you will have at least a general idea of what's going on, and usually that's enough, especially in number oriented operas (ones that break down into arias, duets, etc, as opposed to Wagnerian style in which everything seems to flow into the next musical section). Don't try to follow it like a play or a movie, but follow it as a musical work, like you do a symphony or piano sonata.
Check out some opera DVDs--go for what seem like mainstream productions, to minimize confusion--and turn on the subtitles, which will allow you to follow the words without distracting from watching the opera.
Nice to see so many replies. Definitely found some good advice there, thanks!
I think the sheer length of the works (often 3+ hours) is also a factor that makes it feel like a chore even before I start to listen. I suppose one could always listen one act at a time, or whatever.
I do enjoy cantatas (mainly Bach's church cantatas) and listen to them quite often. I usually don't read the translations, though. On the other hand I love Bach's coffee cantata, especially with the text, so that would suggest that the length is an issue.
Live is not really an option for me, but DVD/Blu-Ray could be easier to follow because of the subtitle option and the visual element. (Although CD has it's sides too - it leaves more room for imagination.) I only have one opera Bluray: Weinberg's The Passenger. Obviously not the easiest opera to start with, but I love Weinberg's instrumental music so that's why I wanted to get that. But still, I've only managed to watch it through once.. So I should probably go for something more traditional. I'll check out those recommendations you guys made.
edit: typo
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 20, 2014, 05:34:01 PM...Don't try to follow it like a play or a movie, but follow it as a musical work, like you do a symphony or piano sonata...
Actually, my advice is the opposite. Opera is (or should be; we all know exceptions!) as much theater as music, and ideally should both heard and seen. I find that seeing the drama helps me to follow both the story and the music. -- In fact, ideally the music, libretto, staging and all the rest should form one total experience; in Wagner's word,
Gesamtkunstwerk or "complete art work." But operas are seldom so well-balanced. The operas of Mozart, Verdi, Wagner and Britten excel at integrating and balancing drama and music.
I agree with Jo. I like watching and listening to opera, it is just not the same only listening.
For me personally listening sans visuals gives me just as much pleasure as if the visuals were present (whether video or concert). Nary a problem for me.
As much as it pains the purist in me, opera is a case where I should probably just buy the highlights disc, as I'm just too lazy to listen to whole operas.
Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2014, 06:14:26 PM
As much as it pains the purist in me, opera is a case where I should probably just buy the highlights disc, as I'm just too lazy to listen to whole operas.
The crazy thing is if you buy boxes you can get the whole thing much cheaper than the highlights!
Try opera in English. Peter Grimes would be a good start, English is its original language. You can follow easily with the libretto only referring if you can't make out patches of the singing. My suggestion is to draw the listener into an understanding of not only the words, but the motivations of the characters and involvement in the drama. Chandos has a terrific and ever growing range of opera in English and many are the equal in quality to excellent performances in the operas' original languages.
Once you know an opera in English, it would then be easier to pick up on it in its authentic language. When I was a kid i poured over libretti trying to understand specific words. Getting a few key words is useful. You then start to pick up on who the great singing actors are and possibly to follow those who make the character come alive, rather than just the best technical singing, which can be quite bland.
This all enriches the experience. I don't suggest you get to know all possible operas in English first, but perhaps two or three and see if that works for you. You may by then decide you can perfectly well cope straight away with the original language.
Another suggestion is to listen to discs of highlights of an opera in the usual language, get to know those parts and then move on to the full work.
The connection to specific singers is important as the differences they make are enormous. Of course, the conductor is vital, but whereas great singers can pull up a so so conductor, even great conductors are limited when stuck with unimaginative singers. Naturally a lot of the best performances arise out of great collaborations between the best on each side of the footlights.
Carmen, Fidelio, Traviata, Otello, La Boheme.....all great starters.
Mike
Quote from: Ken B on March 01, 2014, 06:32:42 PM
The crazy thing is if you buy boxes you can get the whole thing much cheaper than the highlights!
I'll see you on the cdcdcdcdcd thread! :D :D :D
I have a weird way of attuning to operas. Ideally, I agree with that one should experience an opera on stage (just like a play) (either a live performance or one on a big screen with giant speakers attached).
What I usually do is to listen to an opera from scratch by playing it at home or on my way to work and just let the music and the voices weave away creating familiarity. I keep wondering what is happening and have all kinds of ideas of what is going on. I like to know the names of the singers and try to attune to their voices. After having done this a few time (4-5) I have become accustomed to the piece (or hate it). Most of the time I get quite attached to different passages or singers. At that point I buy the opera on bluray, settle down and crank up the volumes of the speakers. It is a delight to finally see the acting out and actual faces of the story embedded in the opera. The music is already familiar so it all becomes a type of "coming home" scenario. I know - it is weird, but I get attached to the operas at that point. Odd, eh?
On a different note: today at a live performance the audience can read the libretto above the stage as the singers perform. What was going on in the past? Did everybody know Italian as they went to listen to Mozart's operas at the end of the 18th and during the 19th century? Or did people actually read the libretto in advance?
Quote from: Moonfish on March 01, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
I have a weird way of attuning to operas. Ideally, I agree with that one should experience an opera on stage (just like a play) (either a live performance or one on a big screen with giant speakers attached).
What I usually do is to listen to an opera from scratch by playing it at home or on my way to work and just let the music and the voices weave away creating familiarity. I keep wondering what is happening and have all kinds of ideas of what is going on. I like to know the names of the singers and try to attune to their voices. After having done this a few time (4-5) I have become accustomed to the piece (or hate it). Most of the time I get quite attached to different passages or singers. At that point I buy the opera on bluray, settle down and crank up the volumes of the speakers. It is a delight to finally see the acting out and actual faces of the story embedded in the opera. The music is already familiar so it all becomes a type of "coming home" scenario. I know - it is weird, but I get attached to the operas at that point. Odd, eh?
On a different note: today at a live performance the audience can read the libretto above the stage as the singers perform. What was going on in the past? Did everybody know Italian as they went to listen to Mozart's operas at the end of the 18th and during the 19th century? Or did people actually read the libretto in advance?
Interesting question. A lot of the time from what I read the audience paid only intermittent attention! But a lot of operas before Mozart were based on very familiar stories, Orpheus, julius Caesar, etc, which doubtless helped.
Quote from: Moonfish on March 01, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
On a different note: today at a live performance the audience can read the libretto above the stage as the singers perform. What was going on in the past? Did everybody know Italian as they went to listen to Mozart's operas at the end of the 18th and during the 19th century? Or did people actually read the libretto in advance?
It is important to remember who the audiences were for these operas back in the day. It wasn't you and me (unless the aristocrats have invaded our board of a sudden! :D ), it was solely the elite, who were well educated in any case, and who usually spoke a variety of languages. The two constants among the panoply of Euro languages were French and Italian. So in answer to your question, yes, virtually all of the intended audience spoke the language it was presented in, even if it wasn't their own. Even if they weren't paying attention all the time, as Ken says. :)
That said, I have trouble understanding English when it is sung operatically. Probably just me, though. :(
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Em, I don't like to be difficult, but certainly in Italy and I thought in central Europe, all and sundry did go to the opera in the 19th Cent. Verdi was a musical and political hero of the masses, not of an elite. Organ grinders had his music on their machines, message boys whistled his big tunes.
Mike
Here is an item which, not a complete review, does describe audiences in France and England, but not Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parterre_(theater_audience)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2014, 08:04:35 AM
It is important to remember who the audiences were for these operas back in the day. It wasn't you and me (unless the aristocrats have invaded our board of a sudden! :D ), it was solely the elite, who were well educated in any case, and who usually spoke a variety of languages. The two constants among the panoply of Euro languages were French and Italian. So in answer to your question, yes, virtually all of the intended audience spoke the language it was presented in, even if it wasn't their own. Even if they weren't paying attention all the time, as Ken says. :)
That said, I have trouble understanding English when it is sung operatically. Probably just me, though. :(
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I had that feeling. Like you I struggle with understanding exactly what is being said/sung during an opera with languages I know. It all depends on the singers and how strongly they articulate. I wonder if the practice of articulation in singing has decreased over the last century as the audiences generally do not master the language? Only CMG fans with libretti in their hands get angry! >:D >:D >:D
Quote from: Ken B on March 02, 2014, 06:44:37 AM
Interesting question. A lot of the time from what I read the audience paid only intermittent attention! But a lot of operas before Mozart were based on very familiar stories, Orpheus, julius Caesar, etc, which doubtless helped.
So people just went to the opera to hang out, get intoxicated and be recognized by the other VIPs while enduring the arias? :D
Not just VIPs, lots just went in the way people go to bars. They would often have talked and laughed through the performances, only shutting up when their attention was caught. The cheap seats were in the Gods and in Italy paid factions were often employed to boo specific rival singers, the claque. At times two opposing claques would be making a din and throwing fruit etc at one another.
The London Prom concerts were set up enabling the audience to promenade about, today we all sit as though in church.
A few years ago I went to English National Opera doing Handel in English and the whole three hours were supplemented by a signer...not a singer.....signing for the deaf, while above our heads ran the surtitles. That seemed like a very strenuous effort on equality, especially as she would have been signing in Standard British Sign Language which quite a proportion of deaf people don't use.
Mike
Quote from: Moonfish on March 02, 2014, 09:44:28 AM
So people just went to the opera to hang out, get intoxicated and be recognized by the other VIPs while enduring the arias? :D
If you read the descriptions, more or less! The fashionable would arrive late, the hoi polloi --and there were not enough elite to fill an opera house -- were rambunctious.
The stars of the show were usually the castrati at least as much as the music. Farinelli is the best example.
I,m talking pre Mozart again.
Quote from: knight66 on March 02, 2014, 08:27:08 AM
Em, I don't like to be difficult, but certainly in Italy and I thought in central Europe, all and sundry did go to the opera in the 19th Cent. Verdi was a musical and political hero of the masses, not of an elite. Organ grinders had his music on their machines, message boys whistled his big tunes.
Mike
Here is an item which, not a complete review, does describe audiences in France and England, but not Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parterre_(theater_audience)
Oh, sorry, I don't take the 19th century into consideration usually. Of course you are quite correct, although by then the same was true in Austria and points north also. Just not my thing. :)
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