Siegfried Idyll, Wagner
Op 132, Molto Adagio.
Well I don't know what the single 'most perfect' movement is, but I do know that my favorite is the finale (4th movement) of Bartok's "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta".
Sibelius Symphony #7 in one movement.
This is a no brainer for me, the Sibelius 7th being the greatest piece of music of any number of movements.
While I cannot point to any one movement as "most perfect," there are a few whose perfection is at the highest levels:
Beethoven, Symphony #9, first and third movements. (Bruckner, much as I love his music, never quite achieved the same level of contrapuntal and formal mastery in his symphonies although he used these two movements as models.)
Brahms, Symphony #4, first and last movements.
Mahler, Symphony #3, last movement.
Mozart, Symphony #41 "Jupiter", last movement.
The andante movement in Mahler's Sixth.
Quote from: Jay F on May 16, 2014, 09:31:39 AM
The andante movement in Mahler's Sixth.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/thumbup.jpg)
Sarge
I like all the ones listed so far. Great stuff! :)
Personally, the Adagio of Bruckner's 7th comes to mind.
As "perfection" doesn't admit grades, this poll is a nonsense.
That said, I'm totally aware I'm being a jerk. :P ;D
Yesterday, I thought the "Andante un poco" from the second sonata for violin and harpsichord BWV 1015, it's a perfect movement.
A close runner up would be Nymphes des bois by Josquin.
Incipt Oratorio Jeremiae Prophetae by Palestrina.
Slow movement of Mozart PC 21.
Bein Schlafengehen by Strauss.
Too many!
Quote from: James on May 17, 2014, 03:14:27 PM
Almost everything Bach ever wrote.
That's a lot of single movements! :)
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 16, 2014, 10:09:35 AM
Personally, the Adagio of Bruckner's 7th comes to mind.
With or without cymbal? ;D But hard to make a case against that one, Ray, great music.
The movement that comes to mind immediately for me is the 2nd Movement (Variation) of Biber's Violin Sonata No. 3 in F, about as perfect as it gets.
The Arietta from Op. 111.
(Also "Warum?", and [audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/intimate_sketches_8.mp3[/audio])
Quote from: Gordo on May 16, 2014, 11:23:24 AM
As "perfection" doesn't admit grades, this poll is a nonsense.
No, it's just one where you can have more than one answer.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 17, 2014, 03:50:47 PM
With or without cymbal? ;D But hard to make a case against that one, Ray, great music.
;D It's a slight imperfection if the cymbal crash isn't there. ;)
Hmm, there seem to be a lot of slow movements in this thread.
I submit the finale of Beethoven's 7th as an alternative.
Quote from: amw on May 17, 2014, 04:11:07 PM
(Also "Warum?", and [audio]http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/intimate_sketches_8.mp3[/audio])
Who's that playing in yr audio sample? I had to cheat to know the title, but it's slower than the one I've already heard....I like yours more.
Quote from: Octave on May 18, 2014, 05:41:50 AM
Who's that playing in yr audio sample? I had to cheat to know the title, but it's slower than the one I've already heard....I like yours more.
[asin]B00004W47B[/asin] but not cheap anymore it seems...
Flute solo in trio of scherzo of Miaskovsky Symphony No. 6.
+ end of Hilding Rosenberg's Symphony No. 2.
RVW's Symphony No. 5, the third movement: Romanza (Lento).
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2014, 07:06:56 PM
RVW's Symphony No. 5, the third movement: Romanza (Lento).
Ooooo. That one hadn't even occurred to me. But it is pretty damn perfect isn't it? (To offend Cato and Gordo.)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2014, 07:06:56 PM
RVW's Symphony No. 5, the third movement: Romanza (Lento).
+ 1
Quote from: Ken B on May 19, 2014, 07:54:20 PM
Ooooo. That one hadn't even occurred to me. But it is pretty damn perfect isn't it? (To offend Cato and Gordo.)
But is it the
most perfect? Or just
somewhat perfect?
(Also good choice, probably the most beautiful piece of music ever written for orchestra)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 19, 2014, 07:06:56 PM
RVW's Symphony No. 5, the third movement: Romanza (Lento).
+1 John! :) That is a real beauty.
Lots of candidates. One standout to me is the second movement to Ravel's string quartet, Assez vif - Très rythmé.
Argh, this has to be one of the most difficult questions ever. If I say one now then some other day it's probably another one.
Can you count opera acts as "movements"? If you can, then my choise is clear: act 2 of Siegfried.
If not, probably "storm" movement from Pastoral symphony.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 20, 2014, 07:58:58 AM
Lots of candidates. One standout to me is the second movement to Ravel's string quartet, Assez vif - Très rythmé.
That's a excellent one!
Second movement of Beethoven's Quartet Op. 95, to me, stands as a pretty perfect movement in every way. Partly because it's so concise, too.
There have been some good choices already mentioned.
Yes; a delightfully large set, really.
Sondheim's "A Little Death". This is really a remarkable song if you know the larger play. Not only is it insanely beautiful, but it is so brief because that serves the drama and character. Such a plangent, revealing sorrow suddenly reled back in and put away again, where it will stay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKqw7VK9CYE
My current favorite perfect single movement is the first movement of Brahms Symphony No. 1. My God, it bowls me over!
Adagio assai from Ravel PC in G
Quote from: Philo on May 21, 2014, 05:01:24 AM
Anda playing Bartok's Piano Concerto No. 2, Movement 1 (conducted by Haitnik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6yTQfZXjg8
YES!!!!!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
I'll offer the Benedictus from Beethoven's Missa solemnis.
Schubert - Piano Sonata in B flat major D960, 1st movement, Molto moderato
Schubert - Symphony in C major D 944, 2nd movement, Andante con moto
Schubert - Die Sterne, Lied D 939
Chopin - Etude op. 10 no. 3
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor op.13 "Pathetique", 2nd movement Adagio cantabile
Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2014, 05:55:14 AM
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 8 in C minor op.13 "Pathetique", 2nd movement Adagio cantabile
In a kind of flashback, now and again (still), I relive the experience one summer of being overwhelmingly enchanted by this, as I (insufficiently, of course) would peck through it at the piano.
Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2014, 05:55:14 AM
Schubert - Piano Sonata in B flat major D960, 1st movement, Molto moderato
Schubert - Symphony in C major D 944, 2nd movement, Andante con moto
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, first movement
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, second movement
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, third movement
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2014, 06:11:47 AM
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, first movement
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, second movement
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, third movement
Agreed, Brian. Particularly, for me, that 3rd movement.
Quote from: Brian on May 21, 2014, 06:11:47 AM
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, first movement
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, second movement
Schubert - String Quintet in C, D956, third movement
Quote from: ChamberNut on May 21, 2014, 06:19:34 AM
Agreed, Brian. Particularly, for me, that 3rd movement.
Schubert rocks! Schubert's the man! Schubert rules! Schubert, Schubert ueber alles! 8)
Among the first things I thought of when I saw the thread title:
Schubert - String Quartet in G major, D. 887 - first movement
Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2014, 06:25:27 AM
Schubert rocks! Schubert's the man! Schubert rules! Schubert, Schubert ueber alles! 8)
Right Florestan today I see. >:D
Quote from: North Star on May 21, 2014, 08:09:53 AM
Among the first things I thought of when I saw the thread title:
Schubert - String Quartet in G major, D. 887 - first movement
+1 :)
Quote from: Ken B on May 21, 2014, 10:10:52 AM
Right Florestan today I see. >:D
Look around: whether left, center or right, Schubert rules! >:D
Quote from: NJ Joe on May 20, 2014, 04:16:09 PM
My current favorite perfect single movement is the first movement of Brahms Symphony No. 1. My God, it bowls me over!
After reading this, I put Symphony No. 1 on and listened to it three times. The whole symphony. While I enjoy the first movement of No. 1, what was a huge revelation to me was how perfect I find the first movement of No. 4 (I'm listening at my computer, which eventually hit No. 4). It has always been my favorite movement in Brahms. It is my perfect Brahms (whom I have struggled to like since 1987). How I wish everything he wrote were this exciting, this tuneful.
Thank you, NJ Joe.
Quote from: North Star on May 21, 2014, 08:09:53 AM
Among the first things I thought of when I saw the thread title:
Schubert - String Quartet in G major, D. 887 - first movement
No no no: if there is one Schubert moment over others it's the first movement of der Tod und das Mädchen quartet!
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2014, 01:33:43 AM
No no no: if there is one Schubert moment over others it's the first movement of der Tod und das Mädchen quartet!
Poppycock! 8)
(it's certainly a fine movement, too, though)
Hmm, I think I accidentally deleted my own post, somehow. That was weird.
Anyway, Schubert D. 887—best recording—Hagen Quartet on DG, currently only available as a CD-R from Arkiv. (The ASIN for picture got deleted from my clipboard, cba to find again) Hopefully Newton Classics will get their hands on it eventually since I doubt DG themselves will reissue. Listen to it if you can find it, you will not regret.
Quote from: amw on May 22, 2014, 01:59:54 AM
Hmm, I think I accidentally deleted my own post, somehow. That was weird.
Anyway, Schubert D. 887—best recording—Hagen Quartet on DG, currently only available as a CD-R from Arkiv. (The ASIN for picture got deleted from my clipboard, cba to find again) Hopefully Newton Classics will get their hands on it eventually since I doubt DG themselves will reissue. Listen to it if you can find it, you will not regret.
I saw that before you deleted it, and will keep the recommendation in mind for later. :)
Since Der Ring des Nibelungen is often compared to a giant symphony, any of the operas comprised in the Tetralogy; I'll choose the Scherzo, Siegfried. :D
I've always loved the slow second movement of Cage's 4'33''. Best thing he ever wrote, by far.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
(It was only a matter of time before someone mentioned 4'33'' here)
Schubert's chamber music features three perfect second movements: Death and the Maiden, Piano Trio D929, and Quintet D956. The Piano Trio is one of the few pieces I bought before I was "into" classical (yes, I heard it in Barry Lyndon).
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on May 22, 2014, 02:55:26 AM
Since Der Ring des Nibelungen is often compared to a giant symphony, any of the operas comprised in the Tetralogy; I'll choose the Scherzo, Siegfried. :D
Ah, how didn't I think of that? I could have said the entire opera instead of one act... well, from acts in siegried act 2 is still my favorite so my point still stands.
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2014, 05:56:04 AM
Ah, how didn't I think of that? I could have said the entire opera instead of one act... well, from acts in siegried act 2 is still my favorite so my point still stands.
It is mine also! (favourite Act of
The Ring)
Well, but nothing with a Wagner libretto could be a perfect movement 8)
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2014, 05:59:21 AM
Well, but nothing with a Wagner libretto could be a perfect movement 8)
Read libretto of die liebe der danae and you'll think that Wagner is shakespeare.
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2014, 06:31:24 AM
Read libretto of die liebe der danae and you'll think that Wagner is shakespeare.
No no no! Francis Bacon is Shakespeare! ;D ;D ;D ;D
"Gegrüsst sei, Jupiter! Nicht Jupiter - Midas! Midas-Jupiter!"
Seriously, for an opera that is musically one of my favorites from Strauss, this libretto sure does make my ears bleed.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 22, 2014, 05:59:21 AM
Well, but nothing with a Wagner libretto could be a perfect movement 8)
Something about this comment made me realize: much of Stockhausen consists of perfect
movements.
>:D :o 8)
Quote from: North Star on May 22, 2014, 01:43:10 AM
Poppycock! 8)
The central "movement" from the
Wanderer Fantasy is another Schubert contender.
Quote from: amw on May 22, 2014, 01:59:54 AM
Anyway, Schubert D. 887—best recording—Hagen Quartet on DG, currently only available as a CD-R from Arkiv. (The ASIN for picture got deleted from my clipboard, cba to find again) Hopefully Newton Classics will get their hands on it eventually since I doubt DG themselves will reissue. Listen to it if you can find it, you will not regret.
The Hagen's Schubert is fantastic but I thought that Newton had gone belly-up?
Quote from: NJ Joe on May 20, 2014, 04:16:09 PM
My current favorite perfect single movement is the first movement of Brahms Symphony No. 1. My God, it bowls me over!
Yes, a mighty achievement. Been listening to this symphony over and over again this year. And the fourth movement is pretty incredible also, if you overlook the slight corniness of the Ode to Joy-like theme. That theme doesn't dominate the movement the way its model does in the Beethoven Ninth final movement. Leaving nice spaces for the Swiss mountain horn theme, which listening to I nearly ran my car off the road the other day, it is so beautiful and moving, even after hearing it a thousand times. And the way this guy writes variations that unfold logicallv but at the same time with startling turns, and goes from dark to light and back again, and throws up a mountain of rhythms from a tiny scrap of a melodic idea. and quiets down again, and slows down, and all of a sudden we are in the saddle galloping again to the conclusion...yet it's all completely inevitable....in a way he's really utterly unique.
Quote from: Alberich on May 22, 2014, 05:56:04 AM
Ah, how didn't I think of that? I could have said the entire opera instead of one act... well, from acts in siegried act 2 is still my favorite so my point still stands.
If the Ring, I would have to go with Die Walkure, the whole first act, not least because it works so well as drama, which Wagner often didn't achieve. Plus the finale, with that incredibly moving farewell music.
But how about Tristan, which tortures us with an unresolved theme all the way through, finally resolving in the last minute? Because of this, it also could be considered one movement.
By the way, it was Richard's 201st birthday yesterday, but I have to say he doesn't look a day over 198.
Well, I thought maybe I put up a clunker with this thread; coming back after a space of weeks I'm glad to see so many replies. And some of them certainly make for a good syllabus of things I haven't yet heard but obviously should seek out.
Quote from: Chaszz on May 22, 2014, 09:30:45 PM
If the Ring, I would have to go with Die Walkure, the whole first act, not least because it works so well as drama
But how about Tristan, which tortures us with an unresolved theme all the way through, finally resolving in the last minute? Because of this, it also could be considered one movement.
Now I am going to get a lot of hate for this but first act of die walküre is actually my least favorite ring act. I love it, no doubt, but it's still my least favorite. The ending of act 3 is of course unbeliavable. And agreed that Tristan could be seen as one single movement.
Quote from: Jay F on May 22, 2014, 05:37:29 AM
Schubert's chamber music features three perfect second movements: ......... Piano Trio D929. The Piano Trio is one of the few pieces I bought before I was "into" classical (yes, I heard it in Barry Lyndon).
This would have been my second choice after the Ravel
This nube will introduce some cheese into this thread ;D
Today: III. Adagio, Serenade No. 10 for winds in B flat major, K. 361/370a - W. A. Mozart
Last week: I. Allegro, Piano Quartet No. 1 in G minor, K. 478 - W. A. Mozart
It will most likely change again by next week.
I'll proudly admit that I'm on a Mozart kick these days.....
Quote from: EigenUser on May 16, 2014, 08:18:58 AM
Well I don't know what the single 'most perfect' movement is, but I do know that my favorite is the finale (4th movement) of Bartok's "Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta".
GOOD CHOICE
Quote from: johnshade on May 28, 2014, 03:29:53 PM
GOOD CHOICE
Thank you! At least someone acknowledges it!
Grosse Fuge, may be piano version.
I'm pleased to see that Schubert has a good following and I'm going to follow that trend. I'm not quite sure what perfect means: it is often said that perfection is improved by one tiny flaw. The movement turn to most in times of stress is the finale of Schubert's G major Sonata Op.78 (D. 894). I suppose I have to concentrate because it is very tricky - Allegretto, but two in a bar, so it goes at a fair pace but in among, as a climax, comes that heavenly melody, and finally, the music trickles away into quiet repose, putting ones mind at peace.
Fauré Sicilienne in G minor (allegro molto moderato) from the Pelléas et Mélisande Suite.
Sarge
Quote from: Jay F on May 16, 2014, 09:31:39 AM
The andante movement in Mahler's Sixth.
If Mahler's andante gets three votes, does he win? Count me in and also see Reply No. 7.
Also "Ave Verum Corpus" by Mozart, concise but powerful.
ZB
For me, the Bach Chaconne from the second violin partita. It has everything.
*head explodes*
Wells Hively "Icarus"... never heard anything like it, a perfect gem.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on June 04, 2014, 10:11:11 AM
If Mahler's andante gets three votes, does he win? Count me in and also see Reply No. 7.
I wonder if anyone's keeping score.
Here's one by Abbado, with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUt84yLQwco
I don't know about perfect but Medtner's 1st Piano Concerto is perhaps one of the most complete and inclusive movements, with the development providing both slow and scherzo-like sections, and the coda could almost be a movement in itself.
Alpine Symphony!
Quote from: Jay F on May 21, 2014, 02:07:44 PM
After reading this, I put Symphony No. 1 on and listened to it three times. The whole symphony. While I enjoy the first movement of No. 1, what was a huge revelation to me was how perfect I find the first movement of No. 4 (I'm listening at my computer, which eventually hit No. 4). It has always been my favorite movement in Brahms. It is my perfect Brahms (whom I have struggled to like since 1987). How I wish everything he wrote were this exciting, this tuneful.
Thank you, NJ Joe.
Quote from: Chaszz on May 22, 2014, 09:19:26 PM
Yes, a mighty achievement. Been listening to this symphony over and over again this year. And the fourth movement is pretty incredible also, if you overlook the slight corniness of the Ode to Joy-like theme. That theme doesn't dominate the movement the way its model does in the Beethoven Ninth final movement. Leaving nice spaces for the Swiss mountain horn theme, which listening to I nearly ran my car off the road the other day, it is so beautiful and moving, even after hearing it a thousand times. And the way this guy writes variations that unfold logicallv but at the same time with startling turns, and goes from dark to light and back again, and throws up a mountain of rhythms from a tiny scrap of a melodic idea. and quiets down again, and slows down, and all of a sudden we are in the saddle galloping again to the conclusion...yet it's all completely inevitable....in a way he's really utterly unique.
Just saw these posts now. Thanks to both of you for acknowledging!
I don't have the musical knowledge to be able to make any claims about technical perfection, but among the single movements that have resonated most powerfully with me (and therefore at least feel somehow "perfect") are:
- The "Heiliger Dankgesang" from Beethoven's 15th string quartet (not a very original choice, I know, but this has to be one of the most breathtakingly beautiful works ever composed);
-the first movement of Brahms's 1st Piano Concerto (in which I can get so swept up that I often feel the need to stop the music when the movement is finished, as it feels like an entire symphony of sorts);
-the first movement of Schubert's 15th string quartet (almost a guilty pleasure in its over-the-top, lush lyricism);
-the second movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony (often overlooked in discussions of this warhorse, this is the beautifully-constructed movement that will often make or break an interpretation for me);
-the first and fourth movements of Brahms's 4th symphony (I'm rarely if ever not in the mood for either of these somewhat brooding movements);
-the first movement of Bartók's Concerto for Orchestra (which is staggering is its color and inventiveness);
-the second movement of Shostakovich's 2nd string quartet (a deeply melancholic recitative, which reminds me in places of the rock group King Crimson's startling "Providence" improv--the third and fourth movements are pretty close to perfection for me as well--the version by the Mandelring Quartett brings out the most in its haunting qualities, I believe);
-the final movement of Shostakovich's 4th Symphony (I'm not really sure the entrie movement feels entirely "perfect" to me, but the mysterious finale is so extraordinary that it makes the movement unforgettable, IMHO).
I'm sure there are others that I'm either forgetting or have yet to hear, but these are the ones that would be in contention for me. If I absolutely had to pick just one, though, it would probably be the "Heiliger Dankgesang."
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 11, 2014, 05:50:44 PM
Alpine Symphony!
+1000! ...although tecnically alpine symphony consists of 22 movements, even though played without breaks.
Quote from: Alberich on June 12, 2014, 06:27:16 AM
+1000! ...although tecnically alpine symphony consists of 22 movements, even though played without breaks.
Shakes head in disbelief, as I don't think this bloated and diffuse work even very good for Richard Strauss. But pleased to see a lot of late Beethoven here, even though I can't think of a more dubious choice than the highly problematic Ninth Symphony. I will vote for the third movement from the Bb major quartet, op. 130.
(That said, I think the op. 130 as a whole works only if the substitute finale is used rather than the Grosse Fuge. For once Beethoven's critics were right: the GF is too large, independent, and self-contained to serve as a suitable finale for the quartet. The charming new finale both in dimensions and tone works far better, and I don't care for the current fad of returning to the GF in performance.)
Some years ago I wrote a little post on 130/3 that strikes me as a little pretentious now, a little effete. But I'll copy it in nonetheless.
QuoteI know nothing more perfect in music. It is worlds removed from the "heroic" or "heaven-storming" Beethoven of the middle period. If it has an ancestor at all in his music, it may be the second movement of the eighth symphony, but only vaguely. Instead, this exquisite piece is almost Mendelssohnian in its delicacy and fantasy. It is light as air, as fragile as a butterfly wing, as gossamer as a rainbow. "Poco scherzando," Beethoven marks it -- a little bit joking. But how little? It is Beethoven's Mona Lisa, smiling slightly at us, tempting us in vain to define its elusive mood.
It never rises above a mezzo forte in dynamics and has no sharp accents, but virtually every phrase is nuanced and individual. Puffs of scales, trills, grace notes, and little cantabile figures decorate its airy frame. Nowhere else has Beethoven written for the four voices of the quartet so independently and equally. A model of civilized conversation where all have something to say, and something to say in response to the others.
Some pieces of music reach such perfection that they seem to sum up all that mortal man can accomplish. So with this piece, beyond all human care and woe, the perfect image of grace and play.
Sforzando, Speaking of the Cereal Symphony:
QuoteI don't think this bloated and diffuse work even very good for Richard Strauss.
Sing to me my angel of music!
I suppose it's too much to hope that you find
La Mer a trifle dull?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 07, 2015, 06:57:23 AM
(That said, I think the op. 130 as a whole works only if the substitute finale is used rather than the Grosse Fuge. For once Beethoven's critics were right: the GF is too large, independent, and self-contained to serve as a suitable finale for the quartet. The charming new finale both in dimensions and tone works far better, and I don't care for the current fad of returning to the GF in performance.)
Agreed.
But, ye gods, is there truly a fad of swapping the
GF back in as the finale of the quartet?
Mon dieu!
I think it's more than a fad; it seems to have been the dominant practice since I started following classical music in the late 1980s. I think there are good arguments for both choices and I might even favor the fugue but the replacement finale tends to get "orphaned" which is a pity because it is a brilliant and funny piece.
Quote from: Ken B on May 07, 2015, 08:16:31 AM
I suppose it's too much to hope that you find La Mer a trifle dull?
Depends on what you mean by a trifle, but I'm afraid it's too much. The finale might fit that description, but the opening movement, especially from the midpoint where the divided cellos and horns take over, seems to me altogether miraculous.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 07, 2015, 08:18:53 AM
But, ye gods, is there truly a fad of swapping the GF back in as the finale of the quartet? Mon dieu!
When I heard the Pacifica Quartet do it a couple years ago, they played the GF as the finale. And I was damn glad they did, since it's such a badass piece to hear live.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 07, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
Conceded.
Ditto. Problem is, you don't get to hear the substitute finale, which unlike the GF can't stand on its own. One group I heard tried the strategy of playing the GF as finale, then the new finale as an encore. And I remember one old LP set (Budapest?) where one side had the Cavatina + Fugue, another the Cavatina + New Finale.
In his excellent study of the quartets, Joseph Kerman (who is not entirely satisfied with either version) writes: "The Fugue runs the danger of trivializing the experience of the other movements, but the new Finale runs the danger of seeming trivial itself." Given the appearance of several bagatelle-like movements in this opus (the Bb minor scherzo and G major minuet), I think the second of these is the more satisfactory alternative.
One interesting feature of the new finale is how, like the Fugue, it transitions from the Cavatina via a unison G — which in the new finale becomes interpreted as V of II, while the furious opening bars of the fugue (as well as some later sections) come as close as Beethoven ever did to atonality. This difference nicely points up the distinction in procedure between the two finales.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 07, 2015, 11:45:36 AM
Given the appearance of several bagatelle-like movements in this opus (the Bb minor scherzo and G major minuet), I think the second of these is the more satisfactory alternative.
I think one could make a nice classical quartet out of Op. 130 just by playing mvts. 1, 3, 5, and the substitute finale. Problem solved!
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 07, 2015, 11:45:36 AM
Joseph Kerman (who is not entirely satisfied with either version)
Too bad he lived 200 years too late. I´m sure his advice would have helped Beethoven to write an entirely satisfactory version. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on May 07, 2015, 11:52:04 AM
Too bad he lived 200 years too late. I´m sure his advice would have helped Beethoven to write an entirely satisfactory version. ;D ;D ;D
Oh come now, Florestan. As a professional critic Kerman is doing nothing more than what any of us do (such as in this thread) when commenting on what we see as the strengths and weaknesses of various pieces. Only difference is, he's published and we are not.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 07, 2015, 11:58:59 AM
Oh come now, Florestan. As a professional critic Kerman is doing nothing more than what any of us do (such as in this thread) when commenting on what we see as the strengths and weaknesses of various pieces. Only difference is, he's published and we are not.
That´s all true and fine, but "not being entirely satisfied with either versions" boils down to "knowing better than Beethoven himself" --- and with all due respect to professional critics, I think that´s rubbish. :)
Actually, Kerman's remarks are a bit more subtle than "not satisfied" (which sforzando certainly knows) ;) He is not completely convinced but he makes a pretty interesting case about the "dissociative" nature of the whole thing, bringing together so disparate movements that even an Uber-Finale like the Fugue cannot forge it into a plausible unity.
I do not remember if he explicitly mentions the option to take the piece with the replacement finale as an apotheosis of the divertimento following Mozart's great trio K 563. But the first movement is IMO to weird for that (or for Apollinian Torso's suggestion).
It is an extreme case but it is not all that different from some other things in late Beethoven. Movements like the second ones of either op.106 or op.110 could also be said to be "trivialized" by their surroundings, similarly the little alla marcia in op.132. A major point of such pieces, also the Diabellis and the 9th finale, seems to be the integration of seemingly trivial things that are immediately followed by things subtle and sublime.
Quote from: Jo498 on May 07, 2015, 12:46:32 PM
Actually, Kerman's remarks are a bit more subtle than "not satisfied" (which sforzando certainly knows) ;) He is not completely convinced but he makes a pretty interesting case about the "dissociative" nature of the whole thing, bringing together so disparate movements that even an Uber-Finale like the Fugue cannot forge it into a plausible unity.
I do not remember if he explicitly mentions the option to take the piece with the replacement finale as an apotheosis of the divertimento following Mozart's great trio K 563. But the first movement is IMO to weird for that (or for Apollinian Torso's suggestion).
It is an extreme case but it is not all that different from some other things in late Beethoven. Movements like the second ones of either op.106 or op.110 could also be said to be "trivialized" by their surroundings, similarly the little alla marcia in op.132. A major point of such pieces, also the Diabellis and the 9th finale, seems to be the integration of seemingly trivial things that are immediately followed by things subtle and sublime.
Yes, I know that, Jo, but I did not feel up to summarizing Kerman's arguments in detail. As for Florestan's comment, surely Jo's second paragraph is of a piece with the point I made earlier. It is not a matter of "knowing better than Beethoven," but rather of saying that there are times in the scholar's opinion when even he may not have altogether succeeded in realizing his aims. Why should that be so objectionable? Personally I do feel the rondo finale succeeds very well as an ending to 130, and in my younger days I believe it was generally heard that way. And I think the alla marcia in 132, coming right after the Heiliger Dankgesang, seems deliberately intended to jar the listener by a striking juxtaposition.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674366053 (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674366053)
Quote from: Ken B on May 07, 2015, 02:18:42 PM
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674366053 (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674366053)
This is a well-known book from 1927 that presents what we would today call bowdlerized versions of some Shakespeare's plays to suit 17- and 18th-century tastes. For example, Nahum Tate's version of King Lear creates a happy ending where the good are rewarded for their virtue, Lear and Cordelia survive, and she is married off to Edgar. It really has no relation to Kerman's work, which is a scholarly attempt to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of two different versions that came from the composer's own hand.
But while we don't see that kind of thing with Shakespeare these days, we still see all kinds of ways in which directors and actors try to twist Shakespeare to their own liking. Leaving out questions of interpretation, we rarely see the plays performed at anything like their printed length (in fact there is a serious scholarly theory that some of the so-called "bad" quartos represent actual performing texts running for about two hours, while the printed "good" quarto and folio texts are longer versions that Shakespeare intended for reading). We find scenes omitted, transposed, cut heavily, with often questionable results. I remember a Hamlet from a few years ago where all the theological references to the possible demonic nature of the ghost were removed (such as "The spirit that I have seen may be the devil"), and a Hamlet playing in NYC right now goes that better by leaving out the ghost completely. And then we get all the No-Fear Shakespeare intended to make Shakespeare comprehensible to modern audiences by stripping the plays of their original language:
QuoteAh, I wish my dirty flesh could melt away into a vapor, or that God had not made a law against suicide. Oh God, God! How tired, stale, and pointless life is to me. Damn it! It's like a garden that no one's taking care of, and that's growing wild. Only nasty weeds grow in it now. I can't believe it's come to this. My father's only been dead for two months—no, not even two. Such an excellent king, as superior to my uncle as a god is to a beast, and so loving toward my mother that he kept the wind from blowing too hard on her face. Oh God, do I have to remember that? She would hang on to him, and the more she was with him the more she wanted to be with him; she couldn't get enough of him. Yet even so, within a month of my father's death (I don't even want to think about it. Oh women! You are so weak!), even before she had broken in the shoes she wore to his funeral, crying like crazy—even an animal would have mourned its mate longer than she did!—there she was marrying my uncle, my father's brother, who's about as much like my father as I'm like Hercules. Less than a month after my father's death, even before the tears on her cheeks had dried, she remarried. Oh, so quick to jump into a bed of incest! That's not good, and no good can come of it either. But my heart must break in silence, since I can't mention my feelings aloud.
Damn it! That's not good. I'd rather have Nahum Tate.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 07, 2015, 06:51:12 PM
This is a well-known book from 1927 that presents what we would today call bowdlerized versions of some Shakespeare's plays to suit 17- and 18th-century tastes. For example, Nahum Tate's version of King Lear creates a happy ending where the good are rewarded for their virtue, Lear and Cordelia survive, and she is married off to Edgar. It really has no relation to Kerman's work, which is a scholarly attempt to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of two different versions that came from the composer's own hand.
But while we don't see that kind of thing with Shakespeare these days, we still see all kinds of ways in which directors and actors try to twist Shakespeare to their own liking. Leaving out questions of interpretation, we rarely see the plays performed at anything like their printed length (in fact there is a serious scholarly theory that some of the so-called "bad" quartos represent actual performing texts running for about two hours, while the printed "good" quarto and folio texts are longer versions that Shakespeare intended for reading). We find scenes omitted, transposed, cut heavily, with often questionable results. I remember a Hamlet from a few years ago where all the theological references to the possible demonic nature of the ghost were removed (such as "The spirit that I have seen may be the devil"), and a Hamlet playing in NYC right now goes that better by leaving out the ghost completely. And then we get all the No-Fear Shakespeare intended to make Shakespeare comprehensible to modern audiences by stripping the plays of their original language:
Damn it! That's not good. I'd rather have Nahum Tate.
I remember reading some of Colley Cibber's bowdlerizations. I prefer that to No Fear too.
It's a form of cultural narcissism really. Conform the past to our prejudices.
Quote from: Ten thumbs on June 11, 2014, 01:30:35 PM
I don't know about perfect but Medtner's 1st Piano Concerto is perhaps one of the most complete and inclusive movements, with the development providing both slow and scherzo-like sections, and the coda could almost be a movement in itself.
Indeed. A seemingly three-movement concerto designed as a unified sonata structure with a variation set thrown right in. Pretty close to perfect.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 07, 2015, 01:25:44 PM
Yes, I know that, Jo, but I did not feel up to summarizing Kerman's arguments in detail. As for Florestan's comment, surely Jo's second paragraph is of a piece with the point I made earlier. It is not a matter of "knowing better than Beethoven," but rather of saying that there are times in the scholar's opinion when even he may not have altogether succeeded in realizing his aims. Why should that be so objectionable?
You took much too seriously a passing remark which was ended by three emoticons that should have put you on guard about its true nature. :D
And besides, Kerman is entitled to his opinion, I am entitled to mine. Why should that be so objectionable? :)
Quote
Personally I do feel the rondo finale succeeds very well as an ending to 130
So do I and that settles the matter. :-*
Quote from: Florestan on May 07, 2015, 11:46:09 PM
You took much too seriously a passing remark which was ended by three emoticons that should have put you on guard about its true nature. :D
And besides, Kerman is entitled to his opinion, I am entitled to mine. Why should that be so objectionable? :)
So do I and that settles the matter. :-*
You
are entitled to your own opinion. But as usual you'd do better to adopt mine.
The most perfect single movement in music? That's easy: Il tempo largo, the third movement from Sibelius' Symphony No. 4.
Quote from: Ken B on May 07, 2015, 11:55:27 PM
You are entitled to your own opinion. But as usual you'd do better to adopt mine.
We cannot
all adopt your opinion. But your mission there is admirable.
A dark horse:
The Rach's Third Symphony the Second Movement, which functions as a slow movement and Scherzo.
Quote from: karlhenning on May 08, 2015, 10:31:41 AM
We cannot all adopt your opinion. But your mission there is admirable.
Instead you can adopt mine, which is even more admirable.
Admirable missions as far as the eye can see!
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2015, 07:48:22 AM
The most perfect single movement in music? That's easy: Il tempo largo, the third movement from Sibelius' Symphony No. 4.
That is one of the most penetrating, psychologically awesome, mind-breaking movements ever in symphony repertoire.
Quote from: Alberich on May 10, 2015, 12:14:41 PM
That is one of the most penetrating, psychologically awesome, mind-breaking movements ever in symphony repertoire.
It most certainly is, Alberich. Glad you agree. 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on May 08, 2015, 07:48:22 AM
The most perfect single movement in music? That's easy: Il tempo largo, the third movement from Sibelius' Symphony No. 4.
You'll get no argument from here! While I can't select
one movement as "the most perfect," that one is in the top very few. ;D