Now, I know there is probably not a single piece of musical work that "everyone else" likes but I used it as synonym for "widely appreciated/liked/loved". And rest assured that I don't really "hate" these works, they just haven't yet made that much of an impression to me. It may well be that after giving them some more time I may grow to love them. And I don't have nearly as much as 10 works listed here (can't think of any more right now) so you're free to list less than 10.
Here goes!
1. Giacomo Puccini: La Boheme
2. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
3. Richard Strauss: Der Rosenkavalier
4. Jean Sibelius: 7th symphony
5. Johann Sebastian Bach: St. Matthew passion
6. Johann Sebastian Bach: St. John passion
Choose any ten works by Wagner.
Schubert String Quintet
Bruckner 8
Schubert Symphony 9
Wagner Parsifal
Verdi Falstaff (well, not EVERYONE like it, but you know...)
Tchaikovsky (well, lots of them...)
Bach St. Matthew Passion
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit
Ravel Daphnis et Chloé
Debussy Préludes
Stravinsky Firebird
Grieg Lyric Pieces
Shostakovich Symphony No.10
Sarge
In no particular order:
1. Handel's Messiah
2. Bach's Brandenburg Concertos
3. Baroque orchestral works (exceptions - Vivaldi, and Bach Violin Concertos)
4. Beethoven (replacement final movement of the 13th string quartet)
5. Schumann's 3rd Symphony (2nd movement only) :D
6. Saint Saens' Organ Symphony
7. Italian Opera (with a few exceptions)
Quote from: Jay F on June 12, 2014, 06:59:55 AM
Choose any ten works by Wagner.
Not "everyone else" likes them, though . . . .
A lot of them there "modern" composers.
If I listened to their works, I would know the composition names. 0:)
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Brahms' First Symphony
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto, best heard separately or arranged as a choral work on that one Accentus CD)
5. Bach's St John Passion
6. Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
TIE-7. Bartok's six string quartets
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Brahms' First Symphony
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto, best heard separately or arranged as a choral work on that one Accentus CD)
5. Bach's St John Passion
6. Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
TIE-7. Bartok's six string quartets
Wow--we have very different tastes!
Quote from: NorthNYMark on June 12, 2014, 09:06:52 AM
Wow--we have very different tastes!
Well, he just doesn't like what other people like! :D
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2014, 09:11:49 AM
Well, he just doesn't like what other people like! :D
"Whatever it is, I'm against it!"
1. Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
2. Ode to Joy (love the rest of the symphony, though)
3. The New World Symphony
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
:'( :'( :'( :'(
Mahler: Symphonies 1, 5, 6, 7, 9
Shostakovich: Symphonies 5 & 10, 24 Preludes and Fugues
Wagner: Tristan und Isolde, Der Ring des Nibelungen
Those were the first ones to come to mind but on reflection I could probably have redone the list with any ten works by Rachmaninov.
I just cannot come up with any response to the thread query.
Just reporting the fact, is all.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 12, 2014, 07:43:49 AM
Ravel Gaspard de la Nuit
>:(
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 12, 2014, 07:55:07 AM
5. Schumann's 3rd Symphony (2nd movement only) :D
>:(
Quote from: Mn Dave on June 12, 2014, 08:23:21 AM
A lot of them there "modern" composers.
If I listened to their works, I would know the composition names. 0:)
Reminds me of George Carlin talking about how he was a picky eater when he was little.
"And then they would ask me '
How do you know you don't like it if you've
never even tried it'?
It came to me in a dream!"
Anyway, my list:
1. Bartok SQs (Brian, I sympathize with you -- and Bartok is my favorite composer. I should say that I do like the 3rd.)
2. Mozart "Symphony No. 40"
3. Shostakovich "Symphony No. 5"
4.
Janacek "Sinfonietta"5. Ligeti "Cello Concerto"
6. Stockhausen "Gruppen"
7. Schoenberg "Five Pieces for Orchestra"
8. Brahms "Double Concerto"
9. Stravinsky "Firebird"
I have some problems with Italian Opera, especially its most illustrious figure:
Verdi: Nabucco
Verdi: La traviata
Verdi: Aida
Verdi: Don Carlo
Verdi: Rigoletto
Quote from: EigenUser on June 12, 2014, 11:17:19 AM
Reminds me of George Carlin talking about how he was a picky eater when he was little.
"And then they would ask me 'How do you know you don't like it if you've never even tried it'? It came to me in a dream!"
Well, you hear them but they don't stay with you.
Quote from: Mn Dave on June 12, 2014, 11:23:33 AM
Well, you hear them but they don't stay with you.
As a huge fan of (good) modern music, I actually agree with you. Most pieces that are now my favorites are things that I didn't like at all -- the Ligeti PC is the perfect example and I warmed up to it one movement at a time (five total). Stravinsky's "Agon" is another.
It's weird with modern (postwar especially). There are plenty of things I listen to that I don't like and I don't listen to them again for a while (if ever). Then, there are other things that I don't like -- but, for some inexplicable reason I keep coming back to. There must be something there that attracts me, yet it only reveals itself upon repeated hearings.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 12, 2014, 11:30:08 AM
As a huge fan of (good) modern music, I actually agree with you. Most pieces that are now my favorites are things that I didn't like at all -- the Ligeti PC is the perfect example and I warmed up to it one movement at a time (five total). Stravinsky's "Agon" is another.
It's weird with modern (postwar especially). There are plenty of things I listen to that I don't like and I don't listen to them again for a while (if ever). Then, there are other things that I don't like -- but, for some inexplicable reason I keep coming back to. There must be something there that attracts me, yet it only reveals itself upon repeated hearings.
Lots of times when I give something a second, third or fourth chance, it turns out I never liked it and never will. :)
The only highly popular composer who comes to mind is Vivaldi. So I'll pick the Four Seasons and anything else by Vivaldi that most folks think highly of.
I could never hear anything worthwhile in Mahler symphonies. Years ago, I searched record stores, thinking maybe I just don't have the right recording. Never found it.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 12, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
I could never hear anything worthwhile in Mahler symphonies. Years ago, I searched record stores, thinking maybe I just don't have the right recording. Never found it.
How do you like Wagner? Brahms?
Quote from: gutstrings on June 12, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
I could never hear anything worthwhile in Mahler symphonies. Years ago, I searched record stores, thinking maybe I just don't have the right recording. Never found it.
I enjoy Mahler in smahler doses than most music I like. 8)
I've been enjoying "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" and I almost bought the score today.
Not a big opera fan, haven't listened to much Wagner. Brahms is OK, at one time I liked Abbado's approach, sorry to learn of his recent passing... but aside from Brahms' Hungarian Dances, he doesn't move me. Tchaikovsky steals the show.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 12, 2014, 01:26:31 PM
I could never hear anything worthwhile in Mahler symphonies. Years ago, I searched record stores, thinking maybe I just don't have the right recording. Never found it.
It took me quite a while to warm to them. I just had to be ready, I think.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 12, 2014, 02:58:36 PM
. . . Brahms is OK, at one time I liked Abbado's approach, sorry to learn of his recent passing... but aside from Brahms' Hungarian Dances, he doesn't move me. . . .
How about the clarinet sonatas?
Quote from: EigenUser on June 12, 2014, 02:28:27 PM
I enjoy Mahler in smahler doses than most music I like. 8)
I am similar . . . now and again I really dig listening to one of the symphonies; I seldom listen to two in the same week.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 12, 2014, 11:17:19 AM
Reminds me of George Carlin talking about how he was a picky eater when he was little.
"And then they would ask me 'How do you know you don't like it if you've never even tried it'? It came to me in a dream!"
Anyway, my list:
1. Bartok SQs (Brian, I sympathize with you -- and Bartok is my favorite composer. I should say that I do like the 3rd.)
2. Mozart "Symphony No. 40"
3. Shostakovich "Symphony No. 5"
4. Janacek "Sinfonietta"
5. Ligeti "Cello Concerto"
...
7. Schoenberg "Five Pieces for Orchestra"
8. Brahms "Double Concerto"
9. Stravinsky "Firebird"
You can't afford being mad at others,
Nate 8)
'Everyone' likes Stocky Gruppen or Ligeti CC? Where do you hang out? 0:)
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2014, 05:05:19 AM
I am similar . . . now and again I really dig listening to one of the symphonies; I seldom listen to two in the same week.
But he meant he listens to a movement here, a movement there - hardly the same as listening to a whole symphony once a week or less often.
Oh, I missed that.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 12, 2014, 11:17:19 AM
Anyway, my list:6. Stockhausen "Gruppen"
7. Schoenberg "Five Pieces for Orchestra"
You think everyone else likes Gruppen and Five Pieces? :o What universe do you live in? It's definitely not the same as mine ;D
Edit: I see that North Star beat me to the punch.
Quote from: North Star on June 13, 2014, 05:13:08 AM
'Everyone' likes Stocky Gruppen or Ligeti CC? Where do you hang out? 0:)
Sarge
Most pieces just don't grab me; I'm indifferent.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2014, 05:03:43 AM
It took me quite a while to warm to them. I just had to be ready, I think.
I took to Mahler the way I did the Beatles, immediately and with full fervor. He was the first composer I had a full shelf of when I started listening to classical music. I will never forget one foppish friend who asked me one day, "But you haven't yet listened to Brahms. You need to know Brahms before you can begin to appreciate Mahler."
To which I said, channeling Edna Krabappel, "Hah!"
Quote from: Jay F on June 13, 2014, 06:16:13 AMBut you haven't yet listened to Brahms. You need to know Brahms before you can begin to appreciate Mahler.
Really? That's odd. That's like saying you need to know Charleston before you can appreciate Vegas.
Aye, pointlessly snooty IMO.
You need to know Palestrina before you can begin to appreciate Brahms.
You need to know Leonin before you can appreciate Palestrina!
Quote from: North Star on June 13, 2014, 05:13:08 AM
You can't afford being mad at others, Nate 8)
'Everyone' likes Stocky Gruppen or Ligeti CC? Where do you hang out? 0:)
But he meant he listens to a movement here, a movement there - hardly the same as listening to a whole symphony once a week or less often.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2014, 05:33:24 AM
You think everyone else likes Gruppen and Five Pieces? :o What universe do you live in? It's definitely not the same as mine ;D
Edit: I see that North Star beat me to the punch.
Sarge
I guess those don't quite fit the title. It seems like most Ligeti fans love his CC, so I guess I was going by that. Also, I read in a concert review awhile ago something like "...and anyone who isn't a classical music dinosaur appreciated the fun of Gruppen." They didn't use these words, but that was the gist of what they were saying. Of course, that's just one writer's opinion.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 13, 2014, 06:40:18 AMAlso, I read in a concert review awhile ago something like "...and anyone who isn't a classical music dinosaur appreciated the fun of Gruppen." They didn't use these words, but that was the gist of what they were saying. Of course, that's just one writer's opinion.
Indeed. One man writing that everyone likes something doesn't mean that everyone really likes it. Everyone knows that.
Quote from: Jay F on June 13, 2014, 06:16:13 AM
I took to Mahler the way I did the Beatles, immediately and with full fervor. He was the first composer I had a full shelf of when I started listening to classical music. I will never forget one foppish friend who asked me one day, "But you haven't yet listened to Brahms. You need to know Brahms before you can begin to appreciate Mahler."
To which I said, channeling Edna Krabappel, "Hah!"
That's funny, because Brahms was my top composer right before I got into Mahler. Just coincidence, though.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 13, 2014, 06:40:18 AM
I guess those don't quite fit the title. It seems like most Ligeti fans love his CC, so I guess I was going by that. Also, I read in a concert review awhile ago something like "...and anyone who isn't a classical music dinosaur appreciated the fun of Gruppen." They didn't use these words, but that was the gist of what they were saying. Of course, that's just one writer's opinion.
In fact Gruppen might just be Stockhausen's most popular work. Even
I have a recording ???
Sarge
Quote from: Greg on June 13, 2014, 06:47:26 AM
That's funny, because Brahms was my top composer right before I got into Mahler. Just coincidence, though.
Nay, there are certainly ways in which
Brahms can illumine
Mahler. But making
B. a pre-req for listening to
M. is
de trop.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 13, 2014, 06:48:06 AM
In fact Gruppen might just be Stockhausen's most popular work. Even I have a recording ???
Sarge
I'm pretty sure it is, but even the most popular Stocky isn't necessarily very popular.
Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2014, 06:49:15 AM
Nay, there are certainly ways in which Brahms can illumine Mahler. But making B. a pre-req for listening to M. is de trop.
And this would be true with quite a few alternative composers in place of
M &
B.
There is some objective truth in music... and the arts in general. If given a chance, the patterns and complexity can be enjoyable with Ligeti...I believe universally accepted over time. Same with Sorabji, Szollosy, Bartok and many other contemporary (dissonant) composers. Just as certain violinists are better than others (not just "different"), the same holds true for composers. We will probably find a greater following and appreciation of these masters as opposed to others who have greater difficulty communicating these patterns and complexity (Berg, for example). Regarding the original post, an individual's dislike for a composition may stem from not perceiving the artistic pattern (lack of familiarity with dissonance), or maybe just a weak composition in general (no meaningful pattern to support any artistic message).
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 10:06:57 AM
There is some objective truth in music... and the arts in general. If given a chance, the patterns and complexity can be enjoyable with Ligeti...I believe universally accepted over time. Same with Sorabji, Szollosy, Bartok and many other contemporary (dissonant) composers. Just as certain violinists are better than others (not just "different"), the same holds true for composers. We will probably find a greater following and appreciation of these masters as opposed to others who have greater difficulty communicating these patterns and complexity (Berg, for example). Regarding the original post, an individual's dislike for a composition may stem from not perceiving the artistic pattern (lack of familiarity with dissonance), or maybe just a weak composition in general (no meaningful pattern to support any artistic message).
Most interesting post, thank you.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 10:06:57 AM
There is some objective truth in music... and the arts in general. If given a chance, the patterns and complexity can be enjoyable with Ligeti...I believe universally accepted over time. Same with Sorabji, Szollosy, Bartok and many other contemporary (dissonant) composers. Just as certain violinists are better than others (not just "different"), the same holds true for composers. We will probably find a greater following and appreciation of these masters as opposed to others who have greater difficulty communicating these patterns and complexity (Berg, for example). Regarding the original post, an individual's dislike for a composition may stem from not perceiving the artistic pattern (lack of familiarity with dissonance), or maybe just a weak composition in general (no meaningful pattern to support any artistic message).
Interesting indeed. I'm not sure if it is that I want to agree with you but I don't, or if I don't want to agree with you but I do. Subjectivity versus objectivity in music is something that is so personal and seems to have caused many arguments on here in the past. I think that part of the problem likely lies in the idea of comparisons. For instance, you can't compare Haydn to Ligeti -- you'd almost be better off comparing Haydn to oranges! They had entirely different goals in composition and lived in entirely different eras where entirely different things were acceptable. Both succeeded immensely, but I don't think it is possible to fairly state (and justify) that one was better than the other.
But we can state that Mozart was better than Salieri... even Brahms spoke of his own limitations compared to Beethoven. Bruckner bowed down to Mahler, etc... Ligeti, as with Bartok will retain his fans, while many (most?) others may not. Interestingly, both Haydn and Ligeti were largely appreciated in their own time, and at least on GMG are major (no pun intended) figures.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 12:54:47 PMeven Brahms spoke of his own limitations compared to Beethoven. Bruckner bowed down to Mahler, etc... Ligeti, as with Bartok will retain his fans, while many (most?) others may not. Interestingly, both Haydn and Ligeti were largely appreciated in their own time, and at least on GMG are major (no pun intended) figures.
Brahms' worries of not measuring up to Beethoven tells us only about his character, not about the quality of his music. Bruckner and Mahler are pretty much polar opposites.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 12:54:47 PM
But we can state that Mozart was better than Salieri... even Brahms spoke of his own limitations compared to Beethoven. Bruckner bowed down to Mahler, etc... Ligeti, as with Bartok will retain his fans, while many (most?) others may not. Interestingly, both Haydn and Ligeti were largely appreciated in their own time, and at least on GMG are major (no pun intended) figures.
That's why I am so ambivalent about this. I think that a good example might be the case of Schumann and Mendelssohn. I love both, yet I like Mendelssohn more. That being said, most agree that Schumann was "superior". At least, this is what I've seen many times. There are definitely cases where people seem to agree that one composer was better than another -- Wagner vs. Meyerbeer, Bartok vs. Kodaly, Mozart vs. Salieri, etc. Some may even argue about Debussy vs. Ravel, though I think that they had two different goals (to me, Ravel's music is a modern view of romanticism/classicism whereas that of Debussy is generally a romantic view on modernism, but I digress...).
Yet, no one would step forward to praise Mussourgsky as their favorite. In context of the OP, I have no feelings of insecurity that I should like "Pictures". Quite simply, there are better works, more meaningful and inspirational compositions to attend to. Schumann vs. Mendelssohn-- I never feel either one is lacking. Both are classical giants, genius is evident on all levels throughout all their works.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 07:11:38 PM
Yet, no one would step forward to praise Mussourgsky as their favorite. In context of the OP, I have no feelings of insecurity that I should like "Pictures". Quite simply, there are better works, more meaningful and inspirational compositions to attend to.
Like
Khovanschina,
Boris Godunov, or
St. John's Night on Bare Mountain (for bass baritone, children's choir, choir & orchestra). $:)
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 07:11:38 PM
Yet, no one would step forward to praise Mussourgsky as their favorite. In context of the OP, I have no feelings of insecurity that I should like "Pictures". Quite simply, there are better works, more meaningful and inspirational compositions to attend to. Schumann vs. Mendelssohn-- I never feel either one is lacking. Both are classical giants, genius is evident on all levels throughout all their works.
I like the Mussorgsky-Ravel "Pictures at an Exhibition" (performed it in college). I mean, it isn't a favorite of mine, but I do like it. For me it was more fun to play than it is to listen to -- and the 1st violin part of "Limoges" is a b****.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 07:11:38 PM
Yet, no one would step forward to praise Mussourgsky as their favorite. In context of the OP, I have no feelings of insecurity that I should like "Pictures". Quite simply, there are better works, more meaningful and inspirational compositions to attend to. Schumann vs. Mendelssohn-- I never feel either one is lacking. Both are classical giants, genius is evident on all levels throughout all their works.
Yes, but at the same time as he was writing
Pictures, he was also immersed in
Sunless and
Songs and Dances of Death, two extraordinary song cycles. I think Mussorgsky would be better regarded if people thought of him as an opera and song composer.
(As an aside, I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that DSCH would have been a very different composer without the example of Mussorgsky.)
Anything by Wagner, Brahms, Liszt, Berlioz and some others.
Quote from: Henk on June 14, 2014, 08:04:34 AM
Anything by Wagner, Brahms, Liszt, Berlioz and some others.
Agreed! :D
Highly acclaimed works not (yet/anymore) appreciated by me, by composers which I generally like a lot:
Ravel - Daphnis & Chloe
Mahler - Symphony 7, Das Lied von der Erde
Beethoven - All the concerti, Piano Trios
Debussy - Prelude a l'apres-midi d'un faune
Shostakovich - Symphony 7
Schubert - String Quintet
Aside from that, I have a lot of problems getting into R. Strauss and a certain Mozart.
Quote from: Klaze on June 15, 2014, 06:17:08 AM
Highly acclaimed works not (yet/anymore) appreciated by me, by composers which I generally like a lot:
Ravel - Daphnis & Chloe
The first time I heard this work (Orchestre National de France/Eliahu Inbal), I found it annoying. For the most part it's a very quiet work, but there's sudden aggressive very loud and short bursts of music. It's very difficult to find a proper listening level with loudspeakers. However, I listened to the recording today with headphones using strongest (-1 dB) crossfeeding and it worked. Anyway, it's a problematic work due to it's dynamic structure.
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 12:54:47 PM
even Brahms spoke of his own limitations compared to Beethoven. Bruckner bowed down to Mahler, etc...
I basically agree with your larger point, but composers (or people in general) don't necessarily grasp where they stand. From what I have read (admittedly not much), Bruckner seems to have badly underestimated his own work.
Quote from: springrite on June 12, 2014, 09:11:49 AM
Well, he just doesn't like what other people like! :D
Does that mean one should not read Brian's reviews? ;)
Quote from: gutstrings on June 13, 2014, 12:54:47 PM
But we can state that Mozart was better than Salieri... even Brahms spoke of his own limitations compared to Beethoven. Bruckner bowed down to Mahler, etc...
No, I don't think so - not objectively. We can state that one had better technique or better use of certain aspects in music or that their rhythm/counterpoint/etc was somehow more advanced. But saying someone is 'better' than someone else is not something that is measureable in an objective way (it is subjective). How does one measure 'better'?
Showing humility or appreciation of those who came before does not mean they are better.
Any 10 of Shostakovich`s symphonies
...
There are certain pieces I do not dislike, but I apparently do not share the extremely high opinion of them many other have. E.g. Beethovens 6th symphony is a wonderful piece, but for me it ties with his 1st as my least favorite of his symphonies. Or Mozart's second to last piano concerto K 537 which is for me less interesting than e.g. K 271 or 449 (I also prefer many others to the famous K 467).
But I'll try for some famous pieces I don't much care for, in no particular order:
Puccini: Madama Butterfly
Puccini: La Boheme
Tchaikovsky: Rococo variations
Tchaikovsky: Violin concerto
Shostakowitch: 7th symphony "Leningrad"
Ravel: Bolero
Rachmaninoff: 2nd piano concerto
Bruckner: 4th symphony
Strauss: Heldenleben
Wagner: Tannhäuser
Beethoven: Symphony 5
Beethoven: Symphony 9
Mozart: Symphony 41
...guess that would be the main ones.
Quote from: Greg on June 24, 2014, 07:45:36 AM
Beethoven: Symphony 5
Beethoven: Symphony 9
Mozart: Symphony 41
...guess that would be the main ones.
Mozart 41 is the one thing by Mozart I've heard that I
do like.
Quote from: EigenUser on June 24, 2014, 09:50:11 AM
Mozart 41 is the one thing by Mozart I've heard that I do like.
Too much engineering damages the brain... ;D :P :D >:D
I like Mozart's #41, but probably not as much as many others (the finale is great, but I am not too fond of the 1st movement). I prefer 38-40 and maybe also 36.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 24, 2014, 11:14:07 AM
I like Mozart's #41, but probably not as much as many others (the finale is great, but I am not too fond of the 1st movement). I prefer 38-40 and maybe also 36.
I'm the same way. I prefer Symphony No. 38-40 and 36 over the #41 (but still love it). Number 38 is my favourite. It used to be Number 40.
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 24, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I'm the same way. I prefer Symphony No. 38-40 and 36 over the #41 (but still love it). Number 38 is my favourite. It used to be Number 40.
38 and 40 are my favorite of his later symphonies. But one that I've played the most the past year is No. 25 in G minor, the best opening of any Mozart symphony.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 24, 2014, 11:30:42 AM
one that I've played the most the past year is No. 25 in G minor, the best opening of any Mozart symphony.
Except No. 40, that is. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on June 24, 2014, 10:38:15 AM
Too much engineering damages the brain... ;D :P :D >:D
Ask the expert I always say.
:P
>:D
:laugh:
Quote from: Florestan on June 24, 2014, 11:33:25 AM
Except No. 40, that is. ;D
Indeed, as long as you do it right. Bohm does it right. This is angst ridden music of dread and foreboding. Maybe the next piece on the program is Gruppen.
Quote from: Ken B on June 24, 2014, 12:18:25 PM
Indeed, as long as you do it right. Bohm does it right. This is angst ridden music of dread and foreboding. Maybe the next piece on the program is Gruppen.
That sounds to me like a pretty good program for a one-hour concert. :P
Quote from: Ken B on June 24, 2014, 12:18:25 PM
Indeed, as long as you do it right. Bohm does it right. This is angst ridden music of dread and foreboding. Maybe the next piece on the program is Gruppen.
Mozart is too graceful too be truly foreboding, though. Anything described as "angst ridden music of dread and foreboding" will catch my interest. 8)
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
3. Brahms' First Symphony
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto,
+1
And then
Schumann - Piano Concerto
Berg - Violin Concerto
With a few exceptions (Mozart's Die Zauberflöte and Requiem, Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, Brahms' Liebeslieder Walzer, and Bizet's Carmen), I don't like vocal music, be it songs, canatas, operas, masses, etc. I can't explain why -- I've always preferred purely instrumental music.
As for instrumental compositions, I can't pick the top 10. Here's 10 out of a larger number, off the top of my head.
- Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik
- Mozart: Piano Sonata K. 545
- Beethoven: Für Elise
- Strauss II: Blue Danube Waltz
- Grieg: Piano Concerto
- Any piano concerto of Rachmaninov (including the Paganini Rhapsody)
For most of these, I've heard each piece so many times that I'm sick of them. ;D
Quote from: ChamberNut on June 24, 2014, 11:23:04 AM
I'm the same way. I prefer Symphony No. 38-40 and 36 over the #41 (but still love it). Number 38 is my favourite. It used to be Number 40.
OMG, that is an oopies on my part. I meant #39 in E flat! #39 is my favourite Mozart symphony. :'( :'( :'(
Why couldn't Mozart's final three have been 40, 41 and 42. It would have made life so much easier.
Quote from: James on July 20, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
It's one of the most popular post-war orchestral scores of the 20th century. And his most famous orchestral piece. But he has widely known works in many different areas. But outside of the classical music world .. he is probably most widely known for his pioneering work within the field of electronic music without a doubt. In fact, often cited as historically & artistically its most important & valuable exponent.
It is impossible for anyone to predict the future, but so far I get the impression that Stockhausen will:
1) Always have a small group of strong enthusiasts
2) Be remembered as a pioneer of electronics in music, along with (though to a lesser extent) Varese
3) Not become a household name
This doesn't at all reflect whether I like him or not -- it is just an attempt at predicting what will happen based on what I know so far.
As biased as this might be coming from me, I think it is Ligeti who will be remembered much more and be programmed much more regularly, aside from being known for historical importance. For one, he already has the exposure from three of Kubrick's films, one of which (2001:SO) consists of four works. Furthermore, from the other end, he has a phenomenal set of etudes that many advanced piano students and professionals find very attractive -- and that even many conservative listeners seem to find very approachable and enjoyable.
Quote from: James on July 20, 2014, 12:24:20 PM
Ligeti & Stockhausen are 2 great artists/composers of the era, when we look back at this time, they will certainly stand out for numerous reasons.. any deadly serious music lover or musician living today knows both names already .. art music of it's time will always have a smaller following in relation to mainstream popular or commercial culture .. both of their names & work will remain, what they left behind is built for long distance time travel.
Agreed. Personally, it is important to me that I educate myself on music whether I like it or not. Besides, lots of times it ends up growing on me. I started out detesting Stockhausen, but even I have found a few works that I like and I approach him with a much different attitude than, say, six months ago.
I was talking not so much about the serious classical listeners, but more about the occasional concert-goers. You know, today you might mention the name Bartok and someone might respond along the lines of "Oh, I remember seeing that name on the program of classical concert at the Kennedy Center a few years ago." That sort of thing.
Quote from: James on July 20, 2014, 12:24:20 PM
For our time, Stockhausen had the greater impact due to his early & effective embrace of technology .. in this area few touch him in terms of deep imagination and structural integrity.
True. Out of the two of them, Stockhausen was the pioneer for sure. While I don't listen or know much about rock and more popular music, it has always fascinated me how many artists of these genres admired him.
Quote from: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 01:54:30 PM
Agreed. Personally, it is important to me that I educate myself on music whether I like it or not. Besides, lots of times it ends up growing on me. I started out detesting Stockhausen, but even I have found a few works that I like and I approach him with a much different attitude than, say, six months ago.
I was talking not so much about the serious classical listeners, but more about the occasional concert-goers. You know, today you might mention the name Bartok and someone might respond along the lines of "Oh, I remember seeing that name on the program of classical concert at the Kennedy Center a few years ago." That sort of thing.
True. Out of the two of them, Stockhausen was the pioneer for sure. While I don't listen or know much about rock and more popular music, it has always fascinated me how many artists of these genres admired him.
Indeed, we all remember the pioneers of painting theory, and forget Rembrandt, Monet, or Chagal, who merely painted good works. Theorists first, theorists foremost.
Quote from: James on July 20, 2014, 02:18:33 PM
Even concert models & venues will expand with time, involving more and more technology in their genesis. Generations of listeners will continuously turnover with time too, people more and more deeply connected to this technological world. The great art of the past lives but the demand for bold, deep, challenging intelligent art will never go away either. There are festivals that ONLY feature electronic art music these days where traditional programming, venues and art of the distant past play no role, the demographic is almost completely different .. its like a giant field and culture of it's own, and if you look hard enough traces of it are found everywhere.
I really,
really hope that you are right. I've said this before, but I am sick of being disappointed every year in the Spring when checking out local symphony orchestra programs. It seems like every year every major orchestra is having an "all-Mozart" concert and then they talk about it like no one has ever done it before. What a waste of programming space! Not at all that Mozart isn't fine music (though not now for me) -- just that there is so much out there!
Quote from: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 04:24:17 PM
I really, really hope that you are right. I've said this before, but I am sick of being disappointed every year in the Spring when checking out local symphony orchestra programs. It seems like every year every major orchestra is having an "all-Mozart" concert and then they talk about it like no one has ever done it before. What a waste of programming space! Not at all that Mozart isn't fine music (though not now for me) -- just that there is so much out there!
Yes. And really it's foolish for the local orchestra to do nothing but warhorses, because they could never really compete with the best commercial recordings. I've spoken to local music directors on a few occasions and tried to push on them approachable music from the 20th century, such as Virgil Thomson, or other pieces which are less often performed suitable for small orchestras and something that people would like to listen to. They are reacting to audiences who are reacting to decades of teaching by the institutional avant garde, that music should be painful to listen to. One Boulez is enough to teach most people to avoid modern music.
This by the way shows the folly of much public funding of modern music. The music which gets subsidies is music no one wants to hear. It gets played, because it is subsidized, and poisons the well.
When I lived in Kingston Ontario the local orchestra had a pretty adventurous program, but we had a very highly admired music director, Alexander Brott, and for a small semiprofessional orchestra could pull in famous soloists such as Ida Haendel, Paul Doktor, Peter Pears, David Oistrakh, or Janos Starker, all of whom I saw there.
Quote from: Ken B on July 20, 2014, 04:40:49 PM
Yes. And really it's foolish for the local orchestra to do nothing but warhorses, because they could never really compete with the best commercial recordings. I've spoken to local music directors on a few occasions and tried to push on them approachable music from the 20th century, such as Virgil Thomson, or other pieces which are less often performed suitable for small orchestras and something that people would like to listen to. They are reacting to audiences who are reacting to decades of teaching by the institutional avant garde, that music should be painful to listen to. One Boulez is enough to teach most people to avoid modern music.
This by the way shows the folly of much public funding of modern music. The music which gets subsidies is music no one wants to hear. It gets played, because it is subsidized, and poisons the well.
When I lived in Kingston Ontario the local orchestra had a pretty adventurous program, but we had a very highly admired music director, Alexander Brott, and for a small semiprofessional orchestra could pull in famous soloists such as Ida Haendel, Paul Doktor, Peter Pears, David Oistrakh, or Janos Starker, all of whom I saw there.
But even I have found some works in by Boulez to be very enjoyable. If I can, surely others can, too. Not to mention more approachable works that you are talking about. There is nothing wrong with having Haydn and Messiaen share a program. Or to pick two composers I don't care for, Mozart and, say, Lachenmann (even so, I'd be interested in attending such a concert, by the way). Why must it be all one (old) or the other (new)? Of course the old is going to win if that is the case since it has stood the test of time.
Since I no longer own them -- I sold and gave away many, many CDs (and even more books) before a move -- I don't know their names, but they are all by Haydn. And let's just agree they're ones everyone else likes.
I've listened to the Chopin Nocturnes over and over trying to give them a chance, but I just don't hear anything I really like.
Quote from: The Six on July 29, 2014, 02:48:09 PM
I've listened to the Chopin Nocturnes over and over trying to give them a chance, but I just don't hear anything I really like.
But you like other
Chopin, right? Have you heard period instrument performances of them?
QuoteBruckner bowed down to Mahler, etc...
I presume this confuses Mahler and Wagner.
(http://www.rwv-muenchen.de/Bruckner-Wagner.jpg)
Quote from: Pat B on June 22, 2014, 08:20:07 PM
I basically agree with your larger point, but composers (or people in general) don't necessarily grasp where they stand. From what I have read (admittedly not much), Bruckner seems to have badly underestimated his own work.
As Schoenzeler says in his biography (p58):
"...when one considers that, with the exception of the Symphony No. 2, Bruckner never heard a performance of any of his symphonies before starting work on the next, and moreover that the date marking the beginning of composition of one symphony coincides fairly closely with the completion date of its precursor, there can be no doubt about the unshakeable faith which Bruckner had in his vocation as a symphonist. All idle talk about his 'uncertainty' and 'lack of self-assurance' must be silenced by these facts."
Quote from: NLK1971 on September 28, 2014, 12:42:45 PM
As Schoenzeler says in his biography (p58):
"...when one considers that, with the exception of the Symphony No. 2, Bruckner never heard a performance of any of his symphonies before starting work on the next, and moreover that the date marking the beginning of composition of one symphony coincides fairly closely with the completion date of its precursor, there can be no doubt about the unshakeable faith which Bruckner had in his vocation as a symphonist. All idle talk about his 'uncertainty' and 'lack of self-assurance' must be silenced by these facts."
Again, I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Bruckner. But the fact that he didn't take time off between works doesn't prove or even imply anything about his self-confidence.
Quote from: Pat B on October 09, 2014, 12:37:22 PM
Again, I don't claim to be any sort of expert on Bruckner. But the fact that he didn't take time off between works doesn't prove or even imply anything about his self-confidence.
I think it's evidence of his single-mindedness; the kind of strength-of-purpose characteristic of the genius. I don't believe it makes sense to attribute lack of self-confidence to someone like this. Where he may have lacked confidence is in regard to how his music would be received by others.
Schoenzeler:
"That Bruckner was absolutely sure of himself even when he did give in to the well-meaning advice and insistence of his friends is shown quite clearly by what he said on many occasions: that his symphonies as
he had written them were meant for 'times to come'..."
Quote from: NLK1971 on October 09, 2014, 04:18:07 PM
I think it's evidence of his single-mindedness; the kind of strength-of-purpose characteristic of the genius. I don't believe it makes sense to attribute lack of self-confidence to someone like this. Where he may have lacked confidence is in regard to how his music would be received by others.
Fair enough.
1) Vivaldi: all the concerti except Four Seasons. I do love the Four Seasons, however, esp. Winter, and especially the middle movement. Lots of his choral works, however, are very good.
2) Mozart: Die Zauberflote--just not into all the Masonic symbolism.
3) Brahms: Piano Concerto 1.
4) Bruch: Violin Concerto 1.
5) Bartok: String Quartets.
6) Walton: Symphony 1.
I can also identify certain works I like where I dislike some performances that lots of people like--the Mackerras set of the Mozart symphonies for example, all have such a sense of urgency that they sound like the conductor is perpetually concentrating on trying not to pee in his pants. And the Karajan and Kempe recordings of Strauss's Metamorphosen are examples of a school of interpretation of that work which I despise. I do, however, love the work as performed by Klemperer, Marriner, and Stamp. These last sound very sad, like a man who is dying, who has just given up the will to live, who has lost everything that ever meant anything to him.
I do not dislike the four seasons, but I do not find them all that exceptional, so I cannot really understand that so many listeners seem to single them out musically. I have only heard a fraction of Vivaldi's concerti, but there are certainly several dozen that are as interesting and well-crafted as the "seasons".
Quote from: Jo498 on October 20, 2014, 08:13:32 AM
I do not dislike the four seasons, but I do not find them all that exceptional, so I cannot really understand that so many listeners seem to single them out musically. I have only heard a fraction of Vivaldi's concerti, but there are certainly several dozen that are as interesting and well-crafted as the "seasons".
I feel similar to you. I think
L'estro armonico may be my favorite set of Vivaldi concerti.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 20, 2014, 08:13:32 AM
I do not dislike the four seasons, but I do not find them all that exceptional, so I cannot really understand that so many listeners seem to single them out musically. I have only heard a fraction of Vivaldi's concerti, but there are certainly several dozen that are as interesting and well-crafted as the "seasons".
Agree with you and John, the
Four Seasons have a charm and accessibility that makes them attractive to many, but when I think Vivaldi, I want the cello concertos, please.
Some of my Vivaldi favorites are among the "concerti da camera" which are more like virtuoso trio or quattro sonatas. Or some crazy mixtures of molti'stromenti with bubbling chalumeaux and chirping mandolines. He might have occasionally composed "the same concerto" a few times, but not a hundred times...
R Strauss 'Ein Heldenleben' (what a bore! ::)) - I know you'll all agree.
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music and The Wasps Overture (and he is one of my very favourite composers)
Most music by Mozart apart from the Clarinet Concerto, PC 21 and the Requiem.
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante for Cello and Orchestra
Verdi's operas
Rossini's operas
Scenes and Arias by Nicholas Maw
Walton's 'Facade'
Rodrigo's Guitar Concerto
Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme (although I love his Pathetique Symphony)
I liked Façade the first time I heard it, but it doesn't wear at all well. It's cute the first couple of times . . . .
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2014, 03:57:27 AM
R Strauss 'Ein Heldenleben' (what a bore! ::)) - I know you'll all agree.
Quite. It may be a candidate for the converse thread.
Quote
Most music by Mozart apart from the Clarinet Concerto, PC 21 and the Requiem.
This is something I do not understand. These are great works, but they do not stick out stylistically at all. There's at least a dozen more concertos by Mozart that are every bit as great and rather similar in style. The Requiem is a different case, but there is the c minor Mass K 427. And lots of his music in symphonies, opera, chamber is also quite "serious".
Quote
Rodrigo's Guitar Concerto
Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme (although I love his Pathetique Symphony)
I heartily dislike both of these (although I am o.k. with several other things by Tchaikovsky, Rodrigo seems 3rd rate kitsch, I am not going to bother with this stuff)
I think I might have the thread winner:
Beethoven, Symphony #5
I have been noticing in the past couple of years a nascent dislike of this piece. Very odd, and a bit disturbing, but true none the less.
Quote from: Ken B on October 23, 2014, 05:18:57 AM
I think I might have the thread winner:
Beethoven, Symphony #5
I have been noticing in the past couple of years a nascent dislike of this piece. Very odd, and a bit disturbing, but true none the less.
Yes, Ken's achievement here must surely be unbeatable. 8)
Yea, verily.
I don't think Ken beats "most music by Mozart" ;) although this may be cheating, because it is so unspecific...
Quote from: Jo498 on October 23, 2014, 06:04:31 AM
I don't think Ken beats "most music by Mozart" ;) although this may be cheating, because it is so unspecific...
;)
Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2014, 03:59:16 AM
I liked Façade the first time I heard it, but it doesn't wear at all well. It's cute the first couple of times . . . .
And I love many of Walton's scores. I find Facade rather too 'precious'.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2014, 06:46:12 AM
And I love many of Walton's scores. I find Facade rather too 'precious'.
Yep, definitely not one of my favorite works of Walton's.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2014, 06:46:12 AM
And I love many of Walton's scores. I find Facade rather too 'precious'.
Me too. I love Walton. The concertos, both symphonies (especially 1), the Feast, the chamber music. Even the film music. A smallish output but very high quality. But Facade I have just never been able to get.
Quote from: Ken B on October 23, 2014, 10:07:25 AM
Me too. I love Walton. The concertos, both symphonies (especially 1), the Feast, the chamber music. Even the film music. A smallish output but very high quality. But Facade I have just never been able to get.
His Henry V film score is marvellous - very inspiriting.
My immediate thought was Berg's violin concerto (can't make head or tail of it), but then there are also a number of 19th century violin concertos which don't grab me either - Brahms, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruch. The Mendelssohn however is fine, of course!
Quote from: vandermolen on October 24, 2014, 10:05:24 AM
His Henry V film score is marvellous - very inspiriting.
Just now listening to the
Suite, don't think I had ever done so before. Excellent music; the passacaglia for the Death of Falstaff is particularly well done.
Quote from: Dax on October 24, 2014, 11:08:16 AM
My immediate thought was Berg's violin concerto (can't make head or tail of it), but then there are also a number of 19th century violin concertos which don't grab me either - Brahms, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruch. The Mendelssohn however is fine, of course!
I'm the same way. I bought a copy of the score last week to help. In that respect, I'd buy
Gruppen, too, if it wasn't over $100 (I did manage to get it from the library, but somehow that's not the same).
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2014, 03:57:27 AM
R Strauss 'Ein Heldenleben' (what a bore! ::)) - I know you'll all agree.
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music and The Wasps Overture (and he is one of my very favourite composers)
Most music by Mozart apart from the Clarinet Concerto, PC 21 and the Requiem.
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante for Cello and Orchestra
Verdi's operas
Rossini's operas
Scenes and Arias by Nicholas Maw
Walton's 'Facade'
Rodrigo's Guitar Concerto
Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme (although I love his Pathetique Symphony)
Oh, Vandermolen, not VW's
Serenade to Music; recant, please. "The man that hath no
Serenade to Music in himself, Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds..."
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on October 24, 2014, 06:04:04 PM
Oh, Vandermolen, not VW's Serenade to Music; recant, please. "The man that hath no Serenade to Music in himself, Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds..."
:) this is my fault I know (as with Mozart I realise that most people really like this music). I just find the Serenade a bit cloying and prefer the orchestral only versions. Recently I listened to it again having been told off for not liking it in the pages of the VW Journal ( you see I am a great fan of the composer) and did enjoy it more than before but, to be quite honest, it has never greatly appealed to me. Maybe because when I first came across it in my youth I had difficulty appreciating non-orchestral music, so maybe it is a bit of a blind spot for me.
Quote from: Dax on October 24, 2014, 11:08:16 AM
My immediate thought was Berg's violin concerto (can't make head or tail of it), but then there are also a number of 19th century violin concertos which don't grab me either - Brahms, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruch. The Mendelssohn however is fine, of course!
I rather agree with this. I have never appreciated Berg's VC. Mind you I am not that keen on the one by Sibelius either and he is one of my favourite composers.
Quote from: karlhenning on October 24, 2014, 11:23:48 AM
Just now listening to the Suite, don't think I had ever done so before. Excellent music; the passacaglia for the Death of Falstaff is particularly well done.
Glad you like it
Karl. You should lookout for the narrated version with either Laurence Olivier (EMI-very cheap) or Christopher Plummer (Chandos). The EMI version is conducted by the composer and contains some fine other film (movie ) music by Walton. The Chandos is conducted by Marriner. Both are excellent ( mustn't turn this into a Walton thread! ::))
Quote from: Dax on October 24, 2014, 11:08:16 AM
My immediate thought was Berg's violin concerto (can't make head or tail of it), but then there are also a number of 19th century violin concertos which don't grab me either - Brahms, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Bruch. The Mendelssohn however is fine, of course!
Interesting, I've had similar thoughts about a lot of Romantic violin concertos, with Mendelssohn again being the main exception (and even in his case it's mostly the first movement that's exceptional—same with the Tchaikovsky; good first movement, rather boring second + third ones). I do find Dvořák's uniformly good as well, though find it's mostly the last two movements I listen to.
I love the Mendelssohn concerto, can endure the Tchaikovsky about once a year or so, similar for the first Bruch (have not heard the others) and the Glasunov. The Brahms is another favorite, but the Beethoven I respect more than I love it and it is clearly not one of my favorite Beethoven pieces.
I do not know the Berg well enough, but I do not dislike it; certainly no syrupy tunes and "shallow" fireworks as in some others. Overall 20 century violin concertos tend to be somewhat more interesting to me than romantic ones. My favorite is probably Shostakovich 1st, but I find e.g. Britten, Szymanovsky, Martinu and some others comparably underrated.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 25, 2014, 12:28:56 AM
:) this is my fault I know (as with Mozart I realise that most people really like this music). I just find the Serenade a bit cloying and prefer the orchestral only versions. Recently I listened to it again having been told off for not liking it in the pages of the VW Journal ( you see I am a great fan of the composer) and did enjoy it more than before but, to be quite honest, it has never greatly appealed to me. Maybe because when I first came across it in my youth I had difficulty appreciating non-orchestral music, so maybe it is a bit of a blind spot for me.
I can well understand your feelings about it - the line between cloying (as you say) and achingly beautiful can be thin and read differently contingent on temperament. Rachmaninoff (need I say more?) was moved to tears by it.
I've fully forgiven you, but you should know that your British citizenship is being reviewed... :laugh:
Quote from: Jo498 on October 25, 2014, 01:21:53 AM
I do not know the Berg well enough, but I do not dislike it; certainly no syrupy tunes and "shallow" fireworks as in some others. Overall 20 century violin concertos tend to be somewhat more interesting to me than romantic ones. My favorite is probably Shostakovich 1st, but I find e.g. Britten, Szymanovsky, Martinu and some others comparably underrated.
Shostakovich's
Violin Concerto No. 1 may very well be my favorite VC ever.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 25, 2014, 06:55:14 AM
Shostakovich's Violin Concerto No. 1 may very well be my favorite VC ever.
Mine too along with the No. 2 by Allan Pettersson.
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on October 25, 2014, 06:50:49 AM
I can well understand your feelings about it - the line between cloying (as you say) and achingly beautiful can be thin and read differently contingent on temperament. Rachmaninoff (need I say more?) was moved to tears by it. I've fully forgiven you, but you should know that your British citizenship is being reviewed... :laugh:
Yes, I can remember that about Rachmaninov. I will then have to take out Dutch citizenship as my mother's family originated from there. :)
Quote from: Jo498 on October 25, 2014, 01:21:53 AM
I do not know the Berg well enough, but I do not dislike it; certainly no syrupy tunes and "shallow" fireworks as in some others. Overall 20 century violin concertos tend to be somewhat more interesting to me than romantic ones. My favorite is probably Shostakovich 1st, but I find e.g. Britten, Szymanovsky, Martinu and some others comparably underrated.
I think 20th century violin concertos are in general better than 19th century ones, and in fact the genre seems to have really taken off in the 20th century perhaps spurred by the 19th's failure to produce more than a handful of tolerable ones.
20th century favourites of mine would be Prokofiev No. 2, Bartók No. 2 (apart from the longwinded finale), Dutilleux, Ligeti & Holliger. Not much of a Britten fan, but Szymanowski, Stravinsky and Shostakovich No. 1 are rather interesting as well, though I wouldn't call them favourites.
(I kind of wish Medtner had written a violin concerto, that would be something to hear)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 25, 2014, 01:08:19 PM
Yes, I can remember that about Rachmaninov. I will then have to take out Dutch citizenship as my mother's family originated from there. :)
"From the Windmill," of course! I shoulda thought o' that! 8)
Quote from: amw on October 25, 2014, 01:46:38 PM
I think 20th century violin concertos are in general better than 19th century ones, and in fact the genre seems to have really taken off in the 20th century perhaps spurred by the 19th's failure to produce more than a handful of tolerable ones.
20th century favourites of mine would be Prokofiev No. 2, Bartók No. 2 (apart from the longwinded finale), Dutilleux, Ligeti & Holliger. Not much of a Britten fan, but Szymanowski, Stravinsky and Shostakovich No. 1 are rather interesting as well, though I wouldn't call them favourites.
(I kind of wish Medtner had written a violin concerto, that would be something to hear)
I've always found the longwinded movement of the Bartok 2nd to be the 1st. I like that piece very much, but not as much as other Bartok. I like the Ligeti VC better than the Bartok, actually.
And I love the Stravinsky VC. Fun to play, too, and the 4th movement is the only real tricky one (which I've never attempted). The first movement reminds me a lot of
Scherzo a la Russe, which is one of my favorite works of his, short and insignificant as it may be.
Quote from: EigenUser on October 25, 2014, 03:35:03 PM
I've always found the longwinded movement of the Bartok 2nd to be the 1st. I like that piece very much, but not as much as other Bartok.
Blasphemy! 8)
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on October 25, 2014, 02:18:48 PM
"From the Windmill," of course! I shoulda thought o' that! 8)
Yes I think that's right or 'from the mill' as in 'Miller' in the UK - I prefer Van der Molen though as ( in England at least) it sounds more aristocratic 8)
Beethoven's 9th. It seems everybody else love it, but I don't like it. God knows i have tried, but I'm just not into it.
Quote from: Bruckner is God on February 18, 2015, 03:15:13 AM
Beethoven's 9th. It seems everybody else love it, but I don't like it. God knows i have tried, but I'm just not into it.
That's one of my choices too. We here a club.
Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique.
Again and again I fail to hear what's so fantastique about it.
Quote from: Rinaldo on March 02, 2015, 03:14:35 AM
Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique.
Again and again I fail to hear what's so fantastique about it.
I had a similar reaction for years, until I heard a period performance. Try Minkowski if you haven't. But Harold in Italy and R&J are still better. :)
Quote from: Ken B on March 02, 2015, 04:28:43 AM
I had a similar reaction for years, until I heard a period performance. Try Minkowski if you haven't.
I have not. Noted, thanks! I'm still not ready to give up.
Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. I've only listened to it all the way through once or twice. I get bored. I don't have this reaction to any other of Beethoven's Symphonies (though I do struggle with the violin concerto...).
Quote from: Rinaldo on March 02, 2015, 03:14:35 AM
Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique.
Again and again I fail to hear what's so fantastique about it.
I wonder if you have heard this version....
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/962/MI0000962134.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
These things are very subjective I know but I think that this version is magnificent! It is really well played, the performance is very assertive and there is great tension throughout. It is a wonderfully theatrical version.
I never enjoyed Berlioz' "Scene d'amour" from his Roméo et Juliette.
I've noticed that several people on these boards love this piece and that Berlioz himself thought it his best. Personally, I find the piece underwhelming.
This is frustrating as I've become a huge fan of Berlioz otherwise. It's like when I tell fellow lovers of Monty Python that I don't like the "Dead Parrot sketch". :-X
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2014, 03:57:27 AM
R Strauss 'Ein Heldenleben' (what a bore! ::)) - I know you'll all agree.
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music and The Wasps Overture (and he is one of my very favourite composers)
Most music by Mozart apart from the Clarinet Concerto, PC 21 and the Requiem.
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante for Cello and Orchestra
Verdi's operas
Rossini's operas
Scenes and Arias by Nicholas Maw
Walton's 'Facade'
Rodrigo's Guitar Concerto
Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme (although I love his Pathetique Symphony)
Haha! Only some minor disagreement here, so the main shock is one of recognition. :-X Yet, I do love the two RVW pieces and also all of Rodrigo's guitar concertos (there are five of them, to annoy you). And to the Verdi en Rossini operas I've to add Puccini, though I do love the later Respighi operas (to be honest, I hardly play operas and if I do, mostly Janáček, Barber, Respighi and Vaughan Williams, composers who put the music first IMHO). I think I better reserve another reply for presenting my own
longueurs. :)
Beethoven Violin Concerto
Schumann Piano Concerto
Handel Messiah
Puccini Madama Butterfly
All Vaughan Williams
All Vivaldi
Most Rachmaninoff except the Symphonic Dances and Paganini Rhapsody
All Havergal Brian and Braga Santos
Quote from: Linus on March 14, 2015, 04:27:06 AM
I never enjoyed Berlioz' "Scene d'amour" from his Roméo et Juliette.
I've noticed that several people on these boards love this piece and that Berlioz himself thought it his best. Personally, I find the piece underwhelming.
This is frustrating as I've become a huge fan of Berlioz otherwise. It's like when I tell fellow lovers of Monty Python that I don't like the "Dead Parrot sketch". :-X
Wow. I think Berlioz was right.
Quote from: James on March 14, 2015, 08:56:23 AM
I don't like Beethoven at all. Just too portentous for me. Especially the symphonies. (not a fan of symphonies!)
How about Beethoven's late String Quartets?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 14, 2015, 08:26:44 AMAll Havergal Brian and Braga Santos
Haha. ;) As they say, bien étonné de se trouver ensemble. Two totally different composers heaped together in three words. :D
Nearly all Richard Strauss. Didn't Tchaikovsky say that he'd never seen such lack of talent and pretentiousness linked together. I know you'll all agree. 8)
Most Mozart but that's not to deny his genius. Prefer Haydn.
I rarely listen to Dvorak but like the Cello Concerto and Symphony 8
Not a fan of opera so can't stand things like Puccini etc.
Anything by Verdi.
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music (uncharacteristically self-congratulatory) and the Wasps Overture. He remains probably my favourite composer.
Elgar: Serenade for Strings (ok to listen to if you are doing the washing up)
Wagner.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 14, 2015, 11:34:02 AMNearly all Richard Strauss. Didn't Tchaikovsky say that he'd never seen such lack of talent and pretentiousness linked together. I know you'll all agree. 8)
Most Mozart but that's not to deny his genius. Prefer Haydn.
I rarely listen to Dvorak but like the Cello Concerto and Symphony 8
Not a fan of opera so can't stand things like Puccini etc.
Anything by Verdi.
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music (uncharacteristically self-congratulatory) and the Wasps Overture. He remains probably my favourite composer.
Elgar: Serenade for Strings (ok to listen to if you are doing the washing up)
Wagner.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 23, 2014, 03:57:27 AMR Strauss 'Ein Heldenleben' (what a bore! ::)) - I know you'll all agree.
Vaughan Williams: Serenade to Music and The Wasps Overture (and he is one of my very favourite composers)
Most music by Mozart apart from the Clarinet Concerto, PC 21 and the Requiem.
Prokofiev: Sinfonia Concertante for Cello and Orchestra
Verdi's operas
Rossini's operas
Scenes and Arias by Nicholas Maw
Walton's 'Facade'
Rodrigo's Guitar Concerto
Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme (although I love his Pathetique Symphony)
With almost six months seperating these two posts, shall we call it
consistency or
repetetion? Anyhow: we seem to be sharing many prejudices too. :D
Quote from: Christo on March 14, 2015, 12:52:29 PM
With almost six months seperating these two posts, shall we call it consistency or repetetion? Anyhow: we seem to be sharing many prejudices too. :D
Well spotted. Can't believe I left out Rodrigo. Maybe I am trapped in a time-warp. 8)
Quote from: Christo on March 14, 2015, 11:13:55 AM
Haha. ;) As they say, bien étonné de se trouver ensemble. Two totally different composers heaped together in three words. :D
Heaped together in their mediocrity.
Quote from: 71 dB on March 14, 2015, 11:06:49 AM
How about Beethoven's late String Quartets?
Too portentous, apparently.
Dvořák's 'American' Quartet
Wagner's Ring Cycle
Mahler Symphonies 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, & 9
Shostakovich Symphonies 5 & 10
Rachmaninov Symphonies 1-3, Piano Concertos 1-4 and most of the Preludes
Anything ever written by John Adams, Philip Glass or Michael Nyman
Don't know why I don't like the Dvořák. It's not even an overfamiliarity thing, I disliked it the first time I heard it.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 14, 2015, 02:50:54 PMToo portentous, apparently.
By making perfectly clear, this way, that you've literally no idea what you're talking about - you actually make a point that applies to me as well and many of us, here, in this risky thread: that dismissing composers often tells more about ourselves than about their music. Point taken. :-X
I'm not so sure about the "...but everyone else does" part for some of these, but here goes, mainly raiding previous lists:
Dvořák's Cello Concerto & Symphony No.9
Mahler Symphony No.5
Anything ever written by Philip Glass
Almost all Verdi
Rodrigo's guitar concerti
Tchaikovsky Variations on a Rococo Theme
Mendelssohn piano concerti
Shostakovich string quartets
Rachmaninov's output for orchestra
Quote from: amw on October 25, 2014, 01:46:38 PM
(I kind of wish Medtner had written a violin concerto, that would be something to hear)
That would've been something, indeed. He did intend to orchestrate the Violin Sonata No.3 for it to become a violin concerto, but never came around to it.
Quote from: amw on March 14, 2015, 06:06:40 PM
Shostakovich Symphonies 5 & 10
I don't dislike those two, but I've never liked them as much as Shostakovich's other symphonies. The slow movement of the fifth that brought the first audience to tears doesn't do anything for me. I usually fade out while it's playing, though I do like the other three movements. The Fourteenth and Fifteenth Symphonies affect me much more powerfully. I enjoy the Tenth when I'm listening to it, but I don't remember much when it's over, and I never have any overriding desire to hear it.
I'm not listing what I don't like. I rather talk about what I like. That's much more positive. Somehow people seem to think it's a good thing to dislike something as if it was a sign of intelligence. I have been like that myself too but I am trying to learn away from it. If I don't like X, maybe it is actually my fault and not X's fault? Nobody can like everything and there is no need to do so. I have found enough music I like for many lifetimes, so I don't need to like the rest. Often liking something is a matter of attitude. It is a choice. What is the point of declaring the whole world I don't like composer X and compositions Y and Z when it's me who made that choice of attitude?
Now, I'll be listening to vandermolen's washing up music. :D
Quote from: Christo on March 14, 2015, 11:37:00 PM
By making perfectly clear, this way, that you've literally no idea what you're talking about - you actually make a point that applies to me as well and many of us, here, in this risky thread: that dismissing composers often tells more about ourselves than about their music. Point taken. :-X
What you've made perfectly clear is that you have absolutely no sense of humor or irony. I love and revere Beethoven above almost all other composers, and like Stravinsky, I hold those late quartets as my "highest articles of musical belief."
Quote from: Wanderer on March 15, 2015, 12:26:43 AM
That would've been something, indeed. He did intend to orchestrate the Violin Sonata No.3 for it to become a violin concerto, but never came around to it.
Synchronicity! I always thought that piece would make an excellent violin concerto. Maybe I'll orchestrate it some day.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 15, 2015, 03:15:21 AMWhat you've made perfectly clear is that you have absolutely no sense of humor or irony. I love and revere Beethoven above almost all other composers, and like Stravinsky, I hold those late quartets as my "highest articles of musical belief."
A unironic, humourless 'hahaha'. Ha. ha. h. :-X
(BTW this thread is about compositions we "don't like", not about claims of superior judgment, as some of our more frustrated Modernists apparently aspire to.)
Quote from: Christo on March 15, 2015, 05:44:17 AM
A unironic, humourless 'hahaha'. Ha. ha. h. :-X
(BTW this thread is about compositions we "don't like", not about claims of superior judgment, as some of our more frustrated Modernists apparently aspire to.)
Oh! mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I've been soundly chastised and put in my place. I will now flagellate myself and wear sackcloth and ashes in response to being humiliated by a total stranger writing on the Internet.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 15, 2015, 06:01:15 AMOh! mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I've been soundly chastised and put in my place. I will now flagellate myself and wear sackcloth and ashes in response to being humiliated by a total stranger writing on the Internet.
Good to learn what humour looks like. :D #thnx
Quote from: Christo on March 15, 2015, 06:03:51 AM
Good to learn what humour looks like. :D #thnx
Look, you're the one who's determined to be antagonistic, not I. Any claims that we're talking about "favorites" (or even "favourites") are hypocritical from the start, because of course everyone feels that the works they like are proof of their own superior judgment. Otherwise people would be admitting that they actually like crap. The difference is, there are some who actually do have superior judgment, and others who like Braga Santos.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 15, 2015, 06:31:08 AMThe difference is, there are some who actually do have superior judgment, and others who like Braga Santos.
Papa locuta causa finita.
Quote from: Christo on March 15, 2015, 06:42:11 AM
Papa locuta causa finita.
Not at all, and besides I'm not Catholic. Another Pope (Alexander) put it much better:
"'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none
Go just alike, yet each believes his own."
- from "An Essay on Criticism," 1709
Quote from: James on March 15, 2015, 07:19:32 AM
For me, that's JS Bach.
And I would largely agree.
I really can't think of 10 that everybody else loves but I don't, but there definitely is one:
Much as I love Debussy (one of my favorite composers ever), much as I admire Mallarmé, much as I am fascinated by the world of the Ballets Russes, much as "the flute of the faun brought new breath to the art of music" (Pierre Boulez dixit), I really don't enjoy Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune. There's something in the pastel shades of the score, and its saccharine sound-world, that I find off-putting. :-[
Quote from: ritter on March 15, 2015, 01:10:59 PM
I really can't think of 10 that everybody else loves but I don't, but there definitely is one:
Much as I love Debussy (one of my favorite composers ever), much as I admire Mallarmé, much as I am fascinated by the world of the Ballets Russes, much as "the flute of the faun brought new breath to the art of music" (Pierre Boulez dixit), I really don't enjoy Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune. There's something in the pastel shades of the score, and its saccahrine sound-world, that I find off-putting. :-[
Jeux FTW!
I do find the Faun dull, although very beautiful. I used to like it more. I can't say I don't enjoy it and I wouldn't say I don't like it, but I think I know what you mean.
Quote from: James on March 15, 2015, 07:19:32 AM
For me, that's JS Bach.
Yes, but you are part of a heretical sect nonetheless. >:D :laugh:
Quote from: EigenUser on March 15, 2015, 01:17:33 PM
Jeux FTW!
I do find the Faun dull, although very beautiful. I used to like it more. I can't say I don't enjoy it and I wouldn't say I don't like it, but I think I know what you mean.
Indeed:
Jeux all the way!!!!...nothing sacchairine there; a marvel! Yep, I think you know what I mean,
EigenUser.. ;)
Quote from: ritter on March 15, 2015, 01:22:55 PM
Indeed: Jeux all the way!!!!...nothing sacchairine there; a marvel! Yep, I think you know what I mean, EigenUser.. ;)
Now I have to listen to
Jeux. Not like that's a
bad thing...
Well, 9 pages in and as far as I can see nobody, but nobody, has actually produced a list of 10 popular works they don't like. (Putting "most of Johann Gambolputty's stuff" doesn't count, surely?) So here goes - and please all treat me gently; I know what I'm talking about here - these are not things I've heard once and thought "Don't much like that", they are old and intimate enemies, mostly by favourite composers, some of which I've studied for exams, one of which I've played. Tread softly, for you tread on my nightmares.
Grieg - Piano concerto
Milhaud - Le bœuf sur le toit
Mozart - Piano concerto no.21
Britten - Simple Symphony
Elgar/Payne - Symphony no.3 (well, it was popular at the time)
Dvořák - New World symphony
Berg - Violin concerto
Mozart - Clarinet quintet
Shostakovich - Leningrad symphony
Schumann - 4th symphony
Maybe it was not the full ten but I named works I do not like, e.g. Madama Butterfly (although admittedly I never made it through the whole thing), the "Leningrad symphony" and the Rococo Variations. But I have not closely studied them either. Neither do I feel the urge to do so.
There are other pieces where I oscillate between distaste and a certain fascination, e.g. the Grieg Concerto. This is like certain cakes which are good for one slice but if you have two you will feel sick.
Similarly with Tchaikovsky's violin concerto and the 4th and 5th symphony. The latter was one of my favorite pieces when I began listening to classical music with 15. I could hardly stand them for years afterwards, then I again had some appreciation and I think I still like a lot about the first 3 movements of the 4th (and also some bits of the 5th). But a few years ago I wanted to compare recordings of the 4th or 5th and I had to cancel the endeavour as I could not bear to listen to two version in one afternoon.
Quote from: amw on March 15, 2015, 03:22:23 AM
Maybe I'll orchestrate it some day.
There's a great idea. I've also always thought that transcribing the gorgeous
Sonate-Vocalise for violin and piano would be a very interesting project.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 16, 2015, 12:12:05 AM
... the Grieg Concerto. This is like certain cakes which are good for one slice but if you have two you will feel sick.
Oh yes - except for me the first slice makes me sick.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 16, 2015, 12:12:05 AM
the "Leningrad symphony"...
Utterly baffled by that piece - I can appreciate its importance at the time (although the German besiegers must have had ears like bats when it was played at them, since most of it is so
pppp), but it sounds to me like a mix of the crudest poster art and a lot of third-rate lyricism. I would only think that, though, never say it, certainly not on this forum.
In fact, a lot of my pieces are by favourite composers (DSCH, Schumann, Berg, Mozart, Britten, Elgar) who, for me, are not at their best in them - the Berg concerto, for example, I used to love until I discovered the rest of Berg. Can't quite forgive it, either, for taking up his limited time when he could have been finishing
Lulu.
I tend to agree with your characterization of DSCH 7 (it is also slightly infuriating that this one and the 5th seem to eclipse superior pieces like the 8th).
But we will never agree on the Schumann piano concerto (while it may also suffer from overfamiliarity I think it is just a far better piece of music than the Grieg or any of Rachmaninoff's (these are for me in the same cream tart category that can only be eaten once a year) etc.) and emphatically not on the Mozart clarinet quintet. Especially the first two movements are an absolute delight, one of the wonders of the musical world.
Quote from: DaveF on March 16, 2015, 08:06:46 AM
Can't quite forgive it, either, for taking up his limited time when he could have been finishing Lulu.
But bear in mind that he essentially did finish
Lulu, to the point where Friedrich Cerha's job was largely to complete the orchestration of the third act. As George Perle's study of the opera demonstrates, little original composition was required, at most some filling in of a few vocal parts in the ensembles, and the sole reason for the delay in presenting a finished Act Three was Helene Berg's refusal to see the work brought to completion.
As for Berg's "limited time," I strongly doubt he planned to die from that bee sting.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 15, 2015, 07:31:40 AMNot at all, and besides I'm not Catholic. Another Pope (Alexander) put it much better:
"'Tis with our judgments as our watches, none
Go just alike, yet each believes his own."
- from "An Essay on Criticism," 1709
Hybris and discernment are rarely found in the same person. Montaigne
OK, guys, joust over now please.
Knight
In terms of the original question, my catch-all list is....
The Mozart symphonies, any and all of them.
Most of Haydn's output apart from The Creation and a couple of masses.
Ravel Mother Goose suite, which seems pointless to me.
The 1812 Overture
Gilbert and Sulliven except for the Mikado
The masterpieces of Janacek are a mystery, esp Cunning Little Vixen which I really detest
Wolf, most of his output apart from a handful of songs, can't get into the Spanish Songbook
I am aware that I am already straying away from popular classics, so to end with...
Berlioz Cellini, a complete dog of a piece
Shosta's quartets which I am happy to believe are masterpieces, but it knots my stomach up to hear them
Puccini, Golden Girl of the West, cut it down to 15 minutes, all atmosphere and not much else.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 16, 2015, 11:30:01 PM
In terms of the original question, my catch-all list is....
Ravel Mother Goose suite, which seems pointless to me.
Mike
Do you like the original piano four hands version or the expanded ballet, though,
Mike?
I actively look for transcriptions, but did not know of any of this work. It would not have occured to me to look for one. I can imagine, it might work better for me on piano.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 16, 2015, 11:50:02 PM
I actively look for transcriptions, but did not know of any of this work. It would not have occured to me to look for one. I can imagine, it might work better for me on piano.
Mike
It certainly works better for me in the original version. (the rest of the Argerich & Pletnev recording is also on YT)
https://www.youtube.com/v/vfPIdFT-UDU https://www.youtube.com/v/eCWC32pPQC4
More examples
Mahler symphony no. 2 (I still haven't listened to nearly all of his symphonies so there may be more candidates coming up)
Bruckner symphony 8
Verdi: La Traviata (there are parts of it that I like but I still think it's very overrated)
Btw, I've warmed much more to La boheme after a few relistenings. Although I still prefer Fanciulla, Tosca and Turandot.
Quote from: North Star on March 17, 2015, 12:59:27 AM
It certainly works better for me in the original version. (the rest of the Argerich & Pletnev recording is also on YT)
https://www.youtube.com/v/vfPIdFT-UDU https://www.youtube.com/v/eCWC32pPQC4
Thanks, I will give that a try from home.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 16, 2015, 11:30:01 PM
In terms of the original question, my catch-all list is....
The Mozart symphonies, any and all of them.
Most of Haydn's output apart from The Creation and a couple of masses.
Ravel Mother Goose suite, which seems pointless to me.
The 1812 Overture
Gilbert and Sulliven except for the Mikado
The masterpieces of Janacek are a mystery, esp Cunning Little Vixen which I really detest
Wolf, most of his output apart from a handful of songs, can't get into the Spanish Songbook
I am aware that I am already straying away from popular classics, so to end with...
Berlioz Cellini, a complete dog of a piece
Shosta's quartets which I am happy to believe are masterpieces, but it knots my stomach up to hear them
Puccini, Golden Girl of the West, cut it down to 15 minutes, all atmosphere and not much else.
Mike
Interesting list and largely agree with you apart from Mother Goose, which I find, at least in some places, quite touching.
1. Mahler: "Resurrection" symphony
2. Britten: War Requiem
3. Shostakovich: Symphony 13
4. Shostakovich: Symphony 11
5. Strauss: Tod und Verklarung
6. Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto 3
7. Orff: Carmina Burana
8. Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky
9. Liszt: Piano Concerto 1
10. Shostakovich: Symphony 8
Welcome Kamisama, you have reminded me of another for the bonfire. I have been made to yell my way through Carmina Burana several times and would be happy never to encounter it again.
Mike
Welcome
Kamisama - you certainly chose a good place to start making friends ;)
Quote from: knight66 on March 17, 2015, 05:02:57 AM
Thanks, I will give that a try from home.
Mike
Do tell how it fares. :)
Quote from: North Star on March 17, 2015, 12:59:27 AM
It certainly works better for me in the original version. (the rest of the Argerich & Pletnev recording is also on YT)
https://www.youtube.com/v/vfPIdFT-UDU https://www.youtube.com/v/eCWC32pPQC4
Yes, you were right, what a good idea. That works well for me and I have found it on Spotify. I see it is paired with Prokofiev and oddly, the first time I heard the piece was when i was in choir for Alexander Nevsky and the Ravel preceded it. It did not feel like a good pairing and the Ravel seemed bitty and boring, I uave it on CD, but after a couple of plays gave up on it. So, thanks.
So out with the Ravel and in with the Orff. Now, no one try me on the Shosta Quartets.......I am not going there.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 17, 2015, 11:07:44 PMYes, you were right, what a good idea. That works well for me and I have found it on Spotify. I see it is paired with Prokofiev and oddly, the first time I heard the piece was when i was in choir for Alexander Nevsky and the Ravel preceded it. It did not feel like a good pairing and the Ravel seemed bitty and boring, I uave it on CD, but after a couple of plays gave up on it. So, thanks.
Excellent! Yes, seems odd to pair it with
Nevsky. The
Cinderella suite arrangement is a fine pairing though, on the Argerich/Pletnev disc.
QuoteSo out with the Ravel and in with the Orff. Now, no one try me on the Shosta Quartets.......I am not going there.
Mike
:laugh:
The Ravel is beautiful. We did it in orchestra a few years ago and it was one of the most touching things I've ever played. I also have a solo piano version that I try and play from time-to-time.
Quote from: knight66 on March 17, 2015, 11:07:44 PM
Now, no one try me on the Shosta Quartets.......I am not going there.
Mike
Didn't you know that all 15 quartets were originally written for piano, ondes-Martinot, kazoo, and triangle? You should give 'em a try. I think it works better in that original form, anyways.
Now, there is a bit of arcane music history. Clearly Shosta was influenced by Berlioz, who used that same combo as the original orchestration for his Grande Messe. Harnoncourt has a terrific recording of that version, goes with a real swing.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on March 17, 2015, 10:57:34 PM
Welcome Kamisama, you have reminded me of another for the bonfire. I have been made to yell my way through Carmina Burana several times and would be happy never to encounter it again.
Mike
+ 1
Carmina Burana is a hilarious romp and a guilty pleasure once a year or so. Now that around here gratum et optatum ver reducit gaudea I should probably give it a spin.
But can understand that people hate it.
Like the Pachelbel Canon: Not at all a genuinely bad piece. Only a piece which doesn't bear up particularly well after saturation broadcasting.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 25, 2014, 12:33:25 AM
I rather agree with this. I have never appreciated Berg's VC. Mind you I am not that keen on the one by Sibelius either and he is one of my favourite composers.
De gustibus non disputandum est, again. I loved both of those concertos on my first encounter with them, and my love continues. But my tastes are well-known here as leaning "left," that is, progressive. ;D
(Off-topic question to anyone with more Latin than I: What is the proper form of that Latin sentence? I've seen it a couple of different ways. Also, is it
disputandUm or
disputandEm?)
Paging Cato!
Quote from: jochanaan on March 18, 2015, 08:06:54 AM
De gustibus non disputandum est, again. I loved both of those concertos on my first encounter with them, and my love continues. But my tastes are well-known here as leaning "left," that is, progressive. ;D
(Off-topic question to anyone with more Latin than I: What is the proper form of that Latin sentence? I've seen it a couple of different ways. Also, is it disputandUm or disputandEm?)
The way you have it written: "The debate is not about tastes"
I wouldn't change it, unless you think you mean something else altogether. :)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2015, 08:17:36 AM
The way you have it written: "The debate is not about tastes"
I wouldn't change it, unless you think you mean something else altogether. :)
8)
"I tell the tale that I heard told." :) (A.E. Housman) It was my mother who introduced me to that saying. Even at 100 years old, her memory for accurate detail is astounding. ;D
Quote from: jochanaan on March 18, 2015, 08:06:54 AM
De gustibus non disputandum est.
What is the proper form of that Latin sentence? I've seen it a couple of different ways. Also, is it disputandUm or disputandEm?
It's either "
De gustibus non disputandum est" or "
De gustibus non est disputandum"; both mean exactly the same thing. Sometimes the verb (
est) is omitted with no loss of meaning.
And it's always
disputandum.
Quote from: jochanaan on March 18, 2015, 08:06:54 AM
De gustibus non disputandum est, again. I loved both of those concertos on my first encounter with them, and my love continues. But my tastes are well-known here as leaning "left," that is, progressive. ;D
(Off-topic question to anyone with more Latin than I: What is the proper form of that Latin sentence? I've seen it a couple of different ways. Also, is it disputandUm or disputandEm?)
disputandum, the other is simply wrong, it's not even a well-formed word. (The ending -em is possible in other words, like "ars est celare artem" (the art consists in hiding the art), but not here.) The "um" should also be pronounced clearly distinguishable from "em"
word order is very liberal in Latin and one can also leave out the "est" often.
"About tastes there cannot be a debate/dispute" is maybe the closest translation. It should be noted that a "disputatio" was a formal debate at medieval university. So it is not just any arguing that is supposed to be out of place as far as tastes are concerned. But a debate with logical arguments and rebuttals is not possible.
Ergo, we can keep arguing about tastes because we are not engaging in a formal debate ;)
Quote from: Wanderer on March 18, 2015, 08:42:26 AM
It's either "De gustibus non disputandum est" or "De gustibus non est disputandum"; both mean exactly the same thing. Sometimes the verb (est) is omitted with no loss of meaning.
And it's always disputandum.
Seen it also as "De gustibus et coloribus non disputandum est".
Highly subjective and personal list (I don't want to hurt sensitivities):
-Mozart: Requiem (terribly overrated IMHO)
-Mussorgsky: Pictures at an Exhibition
-Schönberg: String quartets
-Rachmaninov: Piano concerto No. 2 (I like it, but not so much)
-Stravinsky: Agon, Orpheus
-Fauré: Requiem (it doesn't convince me enough)
-Poulenc: Gloria (it doesn't convince me enough)
-Mahler: Symphony No. 5 (it has some interesting moments, but it's too dense)
-Sibelius: Symphony No. 4 (I never thought to say anything bad about Sibelius, but this symphony is the least I like about him, it's too gray)
-French Baroque operas by Lully, Rameau, etc.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 19, 2017, 06:50:29 PM-Schönberg: String quartets
This is the first time I've seen anyone say that liking these is more popular than disliking them. I mean, I think they're the best quartets of the 20th century, but I thought that was an
unpopular opinion.
As for myself?
I don't like Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade much, or Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony.
Most music I am just indifferent to, very little I actively dislike but among composers I like:
Stravinsky - Les Noces (sounds like someone's crazy idea of bad chinese music)
Ligeti - Violin Concerto (such a plodding piece on a mediocre faux folk tune)
Henze - Symphonies 6 and 9 (just a mess)
Brahms - String Quartets op 51(dull, dull, dull)
If it's any consolation the Sarge – who is as devoted a fan of Dmitri Dmitryevich as any of us – has trouble with the e minor symphony.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 20, 2017, 08:30:38 AM
If it's any consolation the Sarge – who is as devoted a fan of Dmitri Dmitryevich as any of us – has trouble with the e minor symphony.
I like the first movement quite well, actually. That second theme is very incisive and a highlight of Shostakovich's symphonies. I just find the rest of it too much for my taste.
The 10 most loved operas.
Quote from: nodogen on July 20, 2017, 10:05:50 AM
The 10 most loved operas.
That's . . . an interesting question.
Schubert Quintet
Stravinsky: Les Noces
Bruckner 8
Schubert 9
Shostakovich 7 and 8
Myaskovsky symphonies (all of them except 1, 5, 10, 11 and 13)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 21, 2017, 04:44:26 AM
That's . . . an interesting question.
Actually, it's a statement. 😜
;^)
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Brahms' First Symphony
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto, best heard separately or arranged as a choral work on that one Accentus CD)
5. Bach's St John Passion
6. Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
TIE-7. Bartok's six string quartets
Three years and I still don't like any of these. Might as well add a few more:
8. Schumann's Piano Concerto
9. Brahms' Second Piano Concerto
10. Rachmaninov's Second Piano Concerto
Also I hate Für Elise.
Quote from: Brian on July 21, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
Also I hate Für Elise.
That's personal and should be discussed under The Diner.
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 20, 2017, 07:43:30 AM
This is the first time I've seen anyone say that liking these is more popular than disliking them. I mean, I think they're the best quartets of the 20th century, but I thought that was an unpopular opinion.
As for myself?
I don't like Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade much, or Shostakovich's Tenth Symphony.
At first I thought of writing that in "unpopular opinions", but it's true, they do not grab me. On the contrary, I do like Scheherezade and the Shostakovich's. That's the good thing about these forums, since there are huge variety of tastes :)
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 20, 2017, 08:04:10 AM
Most music I am just indifferent to, very little I actively dislike but among composers I like:
Stravinsky - Les Noces (sounds like someone's crazy idea of bad chinese music)
Ligeti - Violin Concerto (such a plodding piece on a mediocre faux folk tune)
Henze - Symphonies 6 and 9 (just a mess)
Brahms - String Quartets op 51(dull, dull, dull)
I agree about the Brahms's :o
BUT Les Noces is just amazing :D
Quote from: nodogen on July 21, 2017, 07:07:18 AM
Actually, it's a statement. 😜
Oh, but practically everything is a question, you know.
Quote from: bwv 1080 on July 20, 2017, 08:04:10 AM
Most music I am just indifferent to, very little I actively dislike but among composers I like:
Stravinsky - Les Noces (sounds like someone's crazy idea of bad chinese music)
That is about
exactly what I felt about the piece, the first time I listened to it. As much and as deeply as I appreciated so many
Stravinsky works, my ears were not ready for something so apparently impenetrable as
Les noces.
But now, I don't know what my problem can have been with the piece.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 22, 2017, 04:42:54 AM
Oh, but practically everything is a question, you know.
That's an interesting question. 😉
8)
Anything performed in the 'New Year's Day Concert' from Vienna - a charming tradition started under the Third Reich. I make an exception for 'The Blue Danube' because of its imaginative use in '2001: A Space Odyssey.'
8)
Quote from: vandermolen on July 22, 2017, 09:36:32 AM
Anything performed in the 'New Year's Day Concert' from Vienna - a charming tradition started under the Third Reich. I make an exception for 'The Blue Danube' because of its imaginative use in '2001: A Space Odyssey.'
8)
Agree, but beg to disagree a little too: once in a while there's an excursion into some music, e.g. when one of the rousing Von Suppé Overtures is played, or even some Von Rezniček.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Brahms' First Symphony
There's a certain portentousness in Brahms's "serious" orchestral music that can be annoying.
Quote from: Daverz on July 22, 2017, 06:03:49 PM
There's a certain portentousness in Brahms's "serious" orchestral music that can be annoying.
I find this statement extremely pretentious. ;)
Quote from: Christo on July 22, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Agree, but beg to disagree a little too: once in a while there's an excursion into some music, e.g. when one of the rousing Von Suppé Overtures is played, or even some Von Rezniček.
Fair enough.
:)
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 21, 2017, 03:57:49 PM
At first I thought of writing that in "unpopular opinions", but it's true, they do not grab me. On the contrary, I do like Scheherezade and the Shostakovich's. That's the good thing about these forums, since there are huge variety of tastes :)
Agreed with all - three - points. :-)
Quote from: Daverz on July 22, 2017, 06:03:49 PM
There's a certain portentousness in Brahms's "serious" orchestral music that can be annoying.
It's odd - in the piano concertos and first symphony, that portentousness puts me on edge, but in the last three symphonies (and especially the extremely serious Fourth) it doesn't bother me at all anymore. Not sure how to describe the difference.
Quote from: Brian on July 24, 2017, 05:55:36 AM
It's odd - in the piano concertos and first symphony, that portentousness puts me on edge, but in the last three symphonies (and especially the extremely serious Fourth) it doesn't bother me at all anymore. Not sure how to describe the difference.
Perhaps,
Brian (and forgive me if I repeat myself), it is the focus and economy of the later works which carries them.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2017, 06:30:59 AM
Perhaps, Brian (and forgive me if I repeat myself), it is the focus and economy of the later works which carries them.
Probably...because there's certainly little if any focus and economy in the early orchestral works. Compared to
Brahms's
Piano concerto No. 1,
Wagner's
Ring appears to have the economy of means of
Webern's
SQ op. 28. :D
So there you go: that
Brahms Piano concerto No. 1 is a piece that has many admirers, and that I find insufferable >:(. Seeing it live not long ago with
Radu Lupu and the Bambergers conducted by
Jonathan Nott only confirmed my aversion to the piece... ::)
The "portentousness" of Brahms 1 is partly an issue because it is repeated... jo498 pointed out elsewhere that the first movement presents a complete "darkness to light" trajectory of its own, essentially resolving the basic conflict of the symphony by the time it's over. But then the last movement returns to the portentous introductory mood to play out another darkness to light trajectory, and then he has to keep the movement going for another 12 minutes and therefore makes the main theme of the finale into this extremely important and pompous hymn instead of what it should by all rights be, which is a damn good tune, and builds up to an ending almost as bombastic as the Academic Festival Overture.
If he had ended the first movement in minor, and if the middle movements had been less divertimento like and more "serious", this kind of finale would work much better. The reason Beethoven 5 can have an incredibly bombastic finale ending with 69 hours of c major chords is because the rest of the piece is dark and portentous and this acts as a justified exorcism of the demons. Brahms 1 just keeps going over the trajectory repeatedly and we kind of get it after a while.
I think on its own though, the first movement of Brahms 1 makes a pretty great symphony by itself. Or you could follow it up with the slow movement from Symphony 3 and then end with the finale of the 3rd Piano Quartet arranged for orchestra. Possibilities.
The 4th symphony works, like Beethoven 5, because it's one large dramatic arc. Same with most of Brahms's other mature works (Clarinet Quintet is the most superlative example imo. Also pretty portentous though.)
Quote from: ritter on July 24, 2017, 07:02:59 AM
Probably...because there's certainly little if any focus and economy in the early orchestral works. Compared Brahms's Piano concerto No. 1, Wagner's Ring appears to have the economy of means of Webern's SQ op. 28. :D
Also that. Who the heck needs seven separate themes for the first movement of a piano concerto. C'mon man.
Quote from: ritter on July 24, 2017, 07:02:59 AM
Probably...because there's certainly little if any focus and economy in the early orchestral works.
Well, the
Serenades, but they are designedly light (at least, as
Brahms understood
light) 8)
There are only three early orchestral works by Brahms, the two serenades and the first piano concerto. The German Requiem is not really early and I don't think it is unfocussed, it is not a symphony, so it does not need to hang so tightly together.
(I have once read some analysis that distinguished no fewer than 10 thematic ideas in the exposition of Mozart's concerto K 451, so Brahms' is still a few themes short of that...)
The Requiem is not diffuse at all, it is masterly.
Well this has been an especially productive page of the thread! Enjoyed it all, especially:
Quote from: amw on July 24, 2017, 07:05:03 AM
The "portentousness" of Brahms 1 is partly an issue because it is repeated... jo498 pointed out elsewhere that the first movement presents a complete "darkness to light" trajectory of its own, essentially resolving the basic conflict of the symphony by the time it's over. But then the last movement returns to the portentous introductory mood to play out another darkness to light trajectory, and then he has to keep the movement going for another 12 minutes and therefore makes the main theme of the finale into this extremely important and pompous hymn instead of what it should by all rights be, which is a damn good tune, and builds up to an ending almost as bombastic as the Academic Festival Overture.
If he had ended the first movement in minor, and if the middle movements had been less divertimento like and more "serious", this kind of finale would work much better. The reason Beethoven 5 can have an incredibly bombastic finale ending with 69 hours of c major chords is because the rest of the piece is dark and portentous and this acts as a justified exorcism of the demons. Brahms 1 just keeps going over the trajectory repeatedly and we kind of get it after a while.
I think on its own though, the first movement of Brahms 1 makes a pretty great symphony by itself. Or you could follow it up with the slow movement from Symphony 3 and then end with the finale of the 3rd Piano Quartet arranged for orchestra. Possibilities.
The 4th symphony works, like Beethoven 5, because it's one large dramatic arc. Same with most of Brahms's other mature works (Clarinet Quintet is the most superlative example imo. Also pretty portentous though.)
to which I can only say
(https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/glee/images/3/38/Orson-welles-clapping.gif)
I always thought that Brahms' Symphony and Concerto No. 1 were burdened by a need to demonstrate his Super Serious Credentials and Successor of Beethoven Importance, but never quite thought of the Symphony in that way before. The two middle movements make the finale follow unnaturally, too.
Karl is also right about the relative economy of the subsequent works being to their benefit.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2017, 07:18:33 AM
Well, the Serenades, but they are designedly light (at least, as Brahms understood light) 8)
I don't suppose you've heard the reconstructed (since he destroyed it) original version of the first serenade - for just nine chamber players? A good bit of fun, that. Of course, I do love Serenade No. 1 inordinately.
I like the first serenade (I know of but am not familiar with the nonet reconstruction) but it seems a fairly hodgepodge piece to me. Two movements seem genuine Brahms, namely 2 and 3 (I think they are not only by far the most original but also the best ones). The second scherzo (5) is basically a pastiche from Beethoven's septet and his 2nd symphony, the first movement almost paraphrases the finale of Haydn's last symphony as a first theme and the menuetto also sounds somewhat like a hack from Schubert's octet.
I might add one work.
Études, by Debussy. It's pretty much the only work so far I've heard from him that I don't like.
Das Lied von der Erde :-\
Rite of Spring.
There, I said it...
We can still be mates.
Although I love works like Leonard Bernstein's 'Jeremiah', 'Facsimile' and 'Age of Anxiety' I have never really liked 'Chichester Psalms' which I find rather cloying (a bit like VW's 'Serenade to Music'😎) although I know that many people think very highly of the work
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2017, 10:02:05 AM
Although I love works like Leonard Bernstein's 'Jeremiah', 'Facsimile' and 'Age of Anxiety' I have never really liked 'Chichester Psalms' which I find rather cloying (a bit like VW's 'Serenade to Music'😎) although I know that many people think very highly of the work
It's rum, but although I have heard (and, in one case, conducted) some three or four works which I have been told are "similar to" the
Chichester Psalms, I have not yet heard the
Bernstein work. (So that I am no position to observe whether this or that piece is homage, or plagiarism 8) ) I guess that none of the 'tribute' pieces impressed me enough to seek out the
Bernstein original . . . .
Quote from: vandermolen on July 25, 2017, 10:02:05 AM
Although I love works like Leonard Bernstein's 'Jeremiah', 'Facsimile' and 'Age of Anxiety' I have never really liked 'Chichester Psalms' which I find rather cloying (a bit like VW's 'Serenade to Music'😎) although I know that many people think very highly of the work
I love both o' 'em. Cloy away! :laugh: ;)
Seek out this recording rather than his other, later one. That might help:
[asin]B000009CYI[/asin]
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on July 25, 2017, 10:22:46 AM
I love both o' 'em. Cloy away! :laugh: ;)
Seek out this recording rather than his other, later one. That might help:
[asin]B000009CYI[/asin]
Thank you!
I think that it might be in my Sony box set of Lennie conducts Lennie (original cover series) so I will do.
:)
Quote from: springrite on July 21, 2017, 04:47:59 AM
Schubert Quintet
Stravinsky: Les Noces
Bruckner 8
Schubert 9
Shostakovich 7 and 8
Myaskovsky symphonies (all of them except 1, 5, 10, 11 and 13)
Interesting about the Myaskovsky symphonies as, apart from No.5, the ones you like (or don't dislike) are the lesser known ones. Of these No.11 is my favourite. No.10 is the most 'modernist' I think.
I also have some doubts that "everyone else" (or even a strong and vocal majority) likes Les Noces or most of Miaskovsky's symphonies ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on July 25, 2017, 11:06:19 PM
I also have some doubts that "everyone else" (or even a strong and vocal majority) likes Les Noces or most of Miaskovsky's symphonies ;)
Yes, that's true.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 25, 2017, 05:19:06 AM
We can still be mates.
You'll be happy to know that, excluding one composer (and it's not Stravinsky), I can't even fill one hand with pieces I truly dislike. I also feel that unless I've studied a piece in depth, I don't truly dislike it. The Rite, unfortunately, fulfills this requirement. Nearly any other piece I've disliked in life has at least turned to some level of interest as I've learned and spent time understanding various aspects of the work. It's my belief that most dislike in classical music is driven by a lack of understanding or appreciation of some aspect to the music. I find that too many complaints are because the listener thought a composer didn't do something or should have done something else.
What is also interesting to me in this thread is the 'story' many seem to impose on works (that they like and dislike). Perhaps that is part of the problem, with the listeners, not the compositions.
Quote from: Jo498 on July 25, 2017, 11:06:19 PM
I also have some doubts that "everyone else" (or even a strong and vocal majority) likes Les Noces or most of Miaskovsky's symphonies ;)
Oh, lordy, that'd be me, Everyman, aka Everyone Else! (although I can understand why some may not enjoy
Les Noces, for the life of me I don't get why Miaskovsky's symphonies are not more loved. I took to them immediately. Detractors, explain, please).
Quote from: Ghost Sonata on July 26, 2017, 05:22:50 AM
Oh, lordy, that'd be me, Everyman, aka Everyone Else! (although I can understand why some may not enjoy Les Noces, for the life of me I don't get why Miaskovsky's symphonies are not more loved. I took to them immediately. Detractors, explain, please).
I'm with you here but he's not exactly 'popular' - I guess that the eloquent IMHO Cello Concerto and the poetic Symphony 21 have the greatest potential for wide appeal. The Violin Concerto also perhaps.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 26, 2017, 09:53:21 PM
I'm with you here but he's not exactly 'popular' - I guess that the eloquent IMHO Cello Concerto and the poetic Symphony 21 have the greatest potential for wide appeal. The Violin Concerto also perhaps.
For me, the best symphonies are from the 15th onwards (including the 6th). On them, I can feel the true Miaskovsky. Both concertos are good, especially the cello. It's sublime and elegiac.
Don't know if 'everyone' likes it, but I find Eine Kleine Nachtmusic of Mozart to be pretty dull.
Quote from: Scarpia on July 27, 2017, 01:31:43 PM
Don't know if 'everyone' likes it, but I find Eine Kleine Nachtmusic of Mozart to be pretty dull.
+1
Doesn't it feature briefly in the movie 'Alien'?
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on July 27, 2017, 01:16:12 PM
For me, the best symphonies are from the 15th onwards (including the 6th). On them, I can feel the true Miaskovsky. Both concertos are good, especially the cello. It's sublime and elegiac.
My favourites are: 3,6,15,16,17,21,23,24,25, 27 - so guess we are pretty much in agreement (again!)
Quote from: vandermolen on July 28, 2017, 01:00:46 AM
My favourites are: 3,6,15,16,17,21,23,24,25, 27 - so guess we are pretty much in agreement (again!)
Definitely yes! :)
Any other 10 works by Stravinsky other the the Big Three ballets.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 28, 2017, 04:19:06 PM
Any other 10 works by Stravinsky other the the Big Three ballets.
I largely agree although I like Symphony of Psalms.
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on July 29, 2017, 12:33:15 AM
Interestingly, those three ballets are usually the only Stravinsky that a large amount of people only know :-[
Maybe, but there are enough "famous" Stravinsky besides those. I think
Pulcinella is also pretty good.
The ones that I especially dislike are
Les Noces (just shrill and unlistenable),
Soldier's Tale (that and also monotonous), the
Violin Concerto,
Dumbarton Oaks,
The Rakes Progress,
Symphony in C, Symphony in 3 Movements. Just really bland stuff all around.
There. Grab your torches and pitchforks and flame away.
Quote from: Scarpia on July 27, 2017, 01:31:43 PM
Don't know if 'everyone' likes it, but I find Eine Kleine Nachtmusic of Mozart to be pretty dull.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 28, 2017, 12:59:13 AM
+1
Hang on, now.
Jeffrey, as I understand this, we just transitioned from a
Miaskovsky love-fest (!) to . . . the
K.525 being, erm,
dull?
The thread of course is an invitation to express dislike for any music at all, and so I lodge no objection to folks saying they don't like the
K.525.
But whatever adjective one might pejoratively apply to it, I don't think "dull" can apply, at all, at all.
There: I was obliged to say it.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2017, 12:12:14 PM
Hang on, now. Jeffrey, as I understand this, we just transitioned from a Miaskovsky love-fest (!) to . . . the K.525 being, erm, dull?
The thread of course is an invitation to express dislike for any music at all, and so I lodge no objection to folks saying they don't like the K.525.
But whatever adjective one might pejoratively apply to it, I don't think "dull" can apply, at all, at all.
There: I was obliged to say it.
Hi
Karl,I hardly ever listen to Mozart which I know is my loss. He clearly was one of the great composers of all time it's just that I don't (yet?) appreciate his music other than the lovely Clarinet Concerto. Steering away now from the Miaskovsky love-fest another very popular work that I don't like is Handel's 'Messiah'. My brother is a great admirer of it however.
I do listen to Mozart but far less nowadays than I used to. But about 6 years ago he was my 2nd favorite composer. His minor key works are usually the ones that have the most distinct sound, IMO. The major key works are more often (though not always) dull. I like Eine Kleine Nachtmusik just fine though, with the exception of Menuetto, which is IMO the only movement in the work that really does sound dull.
Quote from: vandermolen on July 29, 2017, 11:53:03 PM
Hi Karl,
I hardly ever listen to Mozart which I know is my loss. He clearly was one of the great composers of all time it's just that I don't (yet?) appreciate his music other than the lovely Clarinet Concerto.
No one is obliged to listen to
Mozart, of course!
I have an old pianist friend who despises
Mozart. Not sure that I see the point, but the fact cannot be denied.
"The man that hath no [Mozart] in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted."
Quote from: Florestan on July 30, 2017, 10:23:35 AM
"The man that hath no [Mozart] in himself,
Nor is not moved with concord of sweet sounds,
Is fit for treasons, stratagems, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night,
And his affections dark as Erebus.
Let no such man be trusted."
What if a woman does not like Mozart? 🙃
Quote from: nodogen on July 30, 2017, 10:43:35 AM
What if a woman does not like Mozart? 🙃
No problem at all afaIc! 8)
1-10. Any 10 works written before Beethoven's time. Beethoven was when music got the kick up the backside it needed and started to get interesting.
I wonder who 'everyone else' is. There are a few pieces I don't like but they are Jerusalem by Hubert Parry and some pieces, whose names I have forgotten, by Karl Jenkins, Ludovico Einaudi and Eric Whitacre. I guess they might be rather popular with 'everyone else' if we were to define them listeners of Classic FM.
Quote from: jessop on August 02, 2017, 08:06:13 PM
I wonder who 'everyone else' is. There are a few pieces I don't like but they are Jerusalem by Hubert Parry and some pieces, whose names I have forgotten, by Karl Jenkins, Ludovico Einaudi and Eric Whitacre. I guess they might be rather popular with 'everyone else' if we were to define them listeners of Classic FM.
Apart from 'Jerusalem' I'm very much in agreement with you here.
Quote from: Maestro267 on July 30, 2017, 11:18:31 AM
1-10. Any 10 works written before Beethoven's time. Beethoven was when music got the kick up the backside it needed and started to get interesting.
Since the poll was of pieces you don't like
but everyone else does, it seems that you live in a part of Wales where everyone (apart from yourself) likes Perotin's
Viderunt Omnes, Dufay's Missa
Ave Regina Cœlorum, Mundy's
Vox Patris Cælestis, Schütz's
Musikalisches Exequien... Where is this? What are the property prices like there? Can I come?
1. La Mer
2. Turangalila-Symphonie
3. Night on Bald Mountain
4. Beethoven Violin Concerto
5. The Lark Ascending
6. Bruckner 4
7. Janacek Sinfonietta
8. Faure Pavane
9. Mars from The Planets
10. Symphonie fantastique
Quote from: musicrom on August 03, 2017, 07:46:56 PM
1. La Mer
2. Turangalila-Symphonie
3. Night on Bald Mountain
4. Beethoven Violin Concerto
5. The Lark Ascending
6. Bruckner 4
7. Janacek Sinfonietta
8. Faure Pavane
9. Mars from The Planets
10. Symphonie fantastique
Interesting list. I still like The Lark Ascending but it has been over-exposed largely due to Classic FM.
Quote from: musicrom on August 03, 2017, 07:46:56 PM
1. La Mer
2. Turangalila-Symphonie
3. Night on Bald Mountain
4. Beethoven Violin Concerto
5. The Lark Ascending
6. Bruckner 4
7. Janacek Sinfonietta
8. Faure Pavane
9. Mars from The Planets
10. Symphonie fantastique
Correct. I side with 'everyone else'. ;)
La Mer is probably among the 5 most popular Debussy compositions but maybe behind "Faune" and a few piano pieces (if one counts stuff like "Girl with flaxen hair" as single pieces and not the whole of the Preludes I). Turangalila ist also among the most popular Messiaen and among the more popular post-war pieces, I'd guess. (Stravinsky had a mean quip about it...)
Agree re Bruckner 4. It used to be his most popular, it still is probably among his top 3 (4,7,8, I guess) symphonies but I never cared much for it. I prefer all of 5-9 and even the "official", condensed/cut version of the 3rd by some margin.
Quote from: Jo498 on August 04, 2017, 12:30:56 AM
..
Turangalila ist also among the most popular Messiaen and among the more popular post-war pieces, I'd guess. (Stravinsky had a mean quip about it...)
As did
Boulez, with his famous dismissal of the piece as "bordello music", or the lesser known, but quite ingenious and apt description of it as "
Bernini of the suburbs". :D
Quote from: α | ì Æ ñ on August 03, 2017, 11:48:31 PM
Interesting :o
I love La Mer, is there any reason you don't like it?
The Turangalila is awesome but very far from my favorite Messiaen personally.
tbh, I didn't know that "everyone else" loved those two ???
La Mer is actually a weird one for me. I don't like Debussy in general, and probably should have added Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun to my list, but I swear, I've listened to La Mer a gazillion times, but I still doubt I'd be able to recognize more than a small section or two from the piece. I guess it's less that I don't like it, and more I just plain don't get it.
Quote from: musicrom on August 03, 2017, 07:46:56 PM
1. La Mer
2. Turangalila-Symphonie
3. Night on Bald Mountain
4. Beethoven Violin Concerto
5. The Lark Ascending
6. Bruckner 4
7. Janacek Sinfonietta
8. Faure Pavane
9. Mars from The Planets
10. Symphonie fantastique
I too was once a non believer. However, I stuck with it and now I could not be without it. It did take me a long time to crack it though for some reason.
Quote from: Christo on August 03, 2017, 11:48:16 PM
Correct. I side with 'everyone else'. ;)
Me too. Completely ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on August 03, 2017, 09:10:12 AM
Apart from 'Jerusalem' I'm very much in agreement with you here.
Jerusalem is the quintessential English anthem to me and that's why I like it a lot, but it's not 'art' music to my ears.
Why should a sacred anthem not be 'art' music?
Well, most sacred anthems are art music but to my ears Jerusalem is not. Not easy to say why, possibly for the same reason that I don't consider God save the King, The Star-Spangled Banner, La Marseillaise, even Das Lied der Deutschen or the Anthem of Europe 'art' music, even though the latters are based on classical tunes.
Maybe it's a matter of its usage since I've always seen it associated with the British grandeur or similar stuff.
Interesting. But . . . well, Berlioz's (or "Berlioz's" 8) ) Marche hongroise: classical music or not? Why or why not?
Not sure if I've replied here already, which may make me liable to charges of contradicting myself ;) . . . but I don't believe there is any composition I don't like that everyone else does.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 07, 2017, 07:52:53 AM
Interesting. But . . . well, Berlioz's (or "Berlioz's" 8) ) Marche hongroise: classical music or not? Why or why not?
Classical music, no doubt. Why? I don't know... 8)
Quote from: GioCar on August 07, 2017, 08:46:08 AM
Classical music, no doubt. Why? I don't know... 8)
Thanks for being a good sport. The borders are porous, but it is also not uncommon to want to build a wall 0:)
Bach - The Art of Fugue
Mendelssohn - Octet
Brahms - Symphony No. 1
Tchaikovsky - Symphonies 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Mahler - Symphony No. 8
Shostakovich - Symphony No. 7
The first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony - no, I don't hate it, but I do think it's a bit overrated. To me the really really really good stuff comes in the final movement. 8)
1-10. Any 10 works from before Beethoven. Your Bachs, your Haydns, your Handels, your Mozarts, and the like. Beethoven was the start of music getting good and interesting.
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 28, 2019, 06:18:53 AM
1-10. Any 10 works from before Beethoven. Your Bachs, your Haydns, your Handels, your Mozarts, and the like. Beethoven was the start of music getting good and interesting.
To cover the time BVB (before Van Beethoven) , better add a zero (or two).... 8)
Quote from: Alberich on February 28, 2019, 05:59:53 AM
The first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony - no, I don't hate it, but I do think it's a bit overrated. To me the really really really good stuff comes in the final movement. 8)
It's the other way round. The last movement would be shallpw and overblown (and it still somewhat is) except as a triumphant closure after a long and arduous way.
I hardly ever listen to the symphony anymore (I listened to it almost every day for two months or so when I was 16) but the first movement still is amazing in its density and sweep with hardly any moment of easing the tension.
Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2019, 08:53:16 AM
It's the other way round. The last movement would be shallpw and overblown (and it still somewhat is) except as a triumphant closure after a long and arduous way.
I hardly ever listen to the symphony anymore (I listened to it almost every day for two months or so when I was 16) but the first movement still is amazing in its density and sweep with hardly any moment of easing the tension.
I have the same reaction. High points are the first movement and scherzo. The coda of the final movement, which repeatedly seems like it is about to end, then goes on, is a hoot, though. :)
I think the finale is often judged too severely. It serves a function, being bot a resolution and triumph and also being a polar opposite to the tightly knit first movement, both in its breadth and the multitude of themes. And with the three or so codas on top of each other, it is a little extreme but it seems Beethoven realized it and in later similarly triumphant sections he was more concise.
Speaking of Beethoven, as of late I can't stand any longer his odd-numbered symphonies (the Seventh used to be my favorite symphony ever 30 years ago, now it grates on my nerves big time --- each time they announce it on radio I change the station; the Third and the Fifth strike me as shallow, bombastic, self-serving in-your-face heroism, and the Ninth I can take only in the guise of the Choral Fantasy) and I have only a mild tolerance for the even-numbered ones (the Pastoral and the Eighth excepted --- meaning they are the only Beethoven symphonies which I really enjoy).
Imho any of his piano trios, vioiln sonatas and string quartets is vastly superior to any of his symphonies.
Still on topic, I strongly dislike Brahms's First Symphony and i find it hugely overrated. One waits and wiats and waits for something to happen, and for a good tune to pop up and when it finally comes it turns out to be a parody of Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme. I'm all the way with Tchaikovsky on it:
Yesterday Kotek and I studied the new symphony [No. 1] by Brahms, a composer who in Germany is praised to the skies. I do not understand his charm. In my view [his music is] dark, cold, and full of pretensions to depth without real depth.
Applied to the First Symphony, the criticism is spot on.
As with Beethoven, I think any of Brahms' chamber music works is vastly superior to any of his symphonies.
Quote from: Maestro267 on February 28, 2019, 06:18:53 AM
Beethoven was the start of music getting good and interesting more and more overblown, conceited and boring, an affair for stiff and still audiences pretending they have the time of their life.
Fixed. >:D
Quote from: Chronochromie on July 12, 2018, 03:57:06 PM
Shostakovich - Symphony No. 7
I expressed the same opinion earlier in this thread, and am happy to confess to a change of opinion, having recently played in a performance of it. Yes, the first movement is pretty terrible, the slow movement not as good as several others elsewhere in the symphonies (apart from perhaps the Mahlerian bit in the middle, which just shows up that DSCH wasn't such a good orchestrator as Mahler), but all of the scherzo, and the finale up to the point where the strings start that 7/4 ostinato (fig. 177) seem to me now to be as good as anything he ever composed. But then, according to the rules of this thread, if
I'd still disliked it then
you couldn't also have had it ;D
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2014, 08:28:33 AM
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Brahms' First Symphony
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto, best heard separately or arranged as a choral work on that one Accentus CD)
5. Bach's St John Passion
6. Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun
TIE-7. Bartok's six string quartets
Quote from: Brian on July 21, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
Three years and I still don't like any of these. Might as well add a few more:
8. Schumann's Piano Concerto
9. Brahms' Second Piano Concerto
10. Rachmaninov's Second Piano Concerto
Also I hate Für Elise.
I now enjoy the Debussy and some performances of Rach PC2 and Brahms Symphony No. 1.
So:
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Berg's Violin Concerto
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto, best heard separately or arranged as a choral work on that one Accentus CD)
5. Bach's St John Passion
6. Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto
TIE-7. Bartok's six string quartets
8. Schumann's Piano Concerto
9. Brahms' Second Piano Concerto
10. dare I say it ... good lord this is gonna make some people mad ... Mozart's Requiem
Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2019, 12:37:45 PM
Speaking of Beethoven, as of late I can't stand any longer his odd-numbered symphonies (the Seventh used to be my favorite symphony ever 30 years ago, now it grates on my nerves big time --- each time they announce it on radio I change the station; the Third and the Fifth strike me as shallow, bombastic, self-serving in-your-face heroism, and the Ninth I can take only in the guise of the Choral Fantasy) and I have only a mild tolerance for the even-numbered ones (the Pastoral and the Eighth excepted --- meaning they are the only Beethoven symphonies which I really enjoy).
Imho any of his piano trios, vioiln sonatas and string quartets is vastly superior to any of his symphonies.
Monster. Everyone not practicing bestiality knows the odd symphonies are better, especially number 8. 8 was an odd number in Beethoven's time, and I favour Historically Informed Numbering.
9 was, naturally, an even number.
Quote from: Brian on February 28, 2019, 01:59:01 PM
I now enjoy the Debussy and some performances of Rach PC2 and Brahms Symphony No. 1.
So:
1. Beethoven's Violin Concerto
2. Brahms' First Piano Concerto
3. Berg's Violin Concerto
4. Mahler's Fifth (except the adagietto, best heard separately or arranged as a choral work on that one Accentus CD)
5. Bach's St John Passion
6. Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto
TIE-7. Bartok's six string quartets
8. Schumann's Piano Concerto
9. Brahms' Second Piano Concerto
10. dare I say it ... good lord this is gonna make some people mad ... Mozart's Requiem
Brahms PC2, really? Beethoven PC3? That's the best one. :)
But I think there may be more controversy in "everyone else likes" than in "don't like."
Have I posted on this thread?
Bach Musical Offering
This is the only Bach I don't really like.
Debussy La Mer
Of course it's a cheat including this, since most people don't like it that much.
Ravel orchestration of Pictures
I prefer the piano version, not that it's terrible.
Schubert Trout Quintet
Probably the only Schubert I don't like
The only one off the top of my head that I can think of 'disliking' of a very popular piece would be:
Handel - Messiah
Quote from: ChamberNut on February 28, 2019, 02:55:04 PM
The only one off the top of my head that I can think of 'disliking' of a very popular piece would be:
Handel - Messiah
I hated it until Iheardgood HIP performances. Try the Andrew Parrott.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on February 28, 2019, 02:36:04 PM
Brahms PC2, really? Beethoven PC3? That's the best one. :)
But I think there may be more controversy in "everyone else likes" than in "don't like."
Dislike of either of the Brahms PCs is not unusual, often on structural grounds.
Quote from: Ken B on February 28, 2019, 02:51:45 PM
Debussy La Mer
Of course it's a cheat including this, since most people don't like it that much.
First I've heard of this. ???
Pianists also tend to dislike them—especially No. 2, which has been described as a concerto for two right hands, and harder than Rach 3. Definitely not the most pianistically written pieces in any case though, which is odd since Brahms played them himself and was perfectly competent at writing solo piano music—maybe he felt that you needed extremely thick piano writing to cut through an orchestra on the weaker pianos of his time?
Quote from: Ken B on February 28, 2019, 02:51:45 PM
Have I posted on this thread?
Bach Musical Offering
This is the only Bach I don't really like.
Ditto - at least of the Bach I've heard so far. I heard the
Opfer for the first time recently (don't know how I managed to omit it for so long), in Jordi Savall's rendering, and was like, "Meh." Sounded like warmed-over Bach to me.
My thread-duty selection: Mahler's Ninth.
It's not that I hate it. In fact, I love the first movement. I just don't get anything out of the two inner movements - especially the third, with those high, screeching strings. The final movement is o-
kay, but there are better slow movements in Mahler for me (such as the final movement of the Third). Nor does it move me. That may be in part because I don't buy that sentimental pap about how the symphony is Mahler's "farewell" (really? Then what was the Tenth supposed to be?). I keep trying to like it, because so many people do and because I love all the others (well, except maybe the Eighth), but so far it hasn't happened.
Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2019, 12:37:45 PM
Speaking of Beethoven, as of late I can't stand any longer his odd-numbered symphonies (the Seventh used to be my favorite symphony ever 30 years ago, now it grates on my nerves big time --- each time they announce it on radio I change the station; the Third and the Fifth strike me as shallow, bombastic, self-serving in-your-face heroism, and the Ninth I can take only in the guise of the Choral Fantasy) and I have only a mild tolerance for the even-numbered ones (the Pastoral and the Eighth excepted --- meaning they are the only Beethoven symphonies which I really enjoy).
Imho any of his piano trios, vioiln sonatas and string quartets is vastly superior to any of his symphonies.
Still on topic, I strongly dislike Brahms's First Symphony and i find it hugely overrated. One waits and wiats and waits for something to happen, and for a good tune to pop up and when it finally comes it turns out to be a parody of Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme. I'm all the way with Tchaikovsky on it:
Yesterday Kotek and I studied the new symphony [No. 1] by Brahms, a composer who in Germany is praised to the skies. I do not understand his charm. In my view [his music is] dark, cold, and full of pretensions to depth without real depth.
Applied to the First Symphony, the criticism is spot on.
As with Beethoven, I think any of Brahms' chamber music works is vastly superior to any of his symphonies.
Hilarious. I too like Beethoven's 6th best. But I always have and still do (perhaps even more than I used to). I must admit though, I rarely listen to the symphonies and I find it keeps them fresh for when I do listen to them.
That said, I don't even understand your comment on Brahms 1. It smacks you in the face with something happening in the opening bar!! And good tunes too! On the other hand, it is too often (lately to me anyway) played in a slow, overheavy approach with no lightness or zip. So on that part I could agree.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 28, 2019, 06:50:21 PM
Hilarious. I too like Beethoven's 6th best. But I always have and still do (perhaps even more than I used to). I must admit though, I rarely listen to the symphonies and I find it keeps them fresh for when I do listen to them.
That said, I don't even understand your comment on Brahms 1. It smacks you in the face with something happening in the opening bar!! And good tunes too! On the other hand, it is too often (lately to me anyway) played in a slow, overheavy approach with no lightness or zip. So on that part I could agree.
Andrei just needs to be told Brahms composed it whilst traveling in Romania. Then he'll love it. 😉
Quote from: Ken B on February 28, 2019, 07:02:34 PM
Andrei just needs to be told Brahms composed it whilst traveling in Romania. Then he'll love it. 😉
Born Johannes Brahmanescu, Brahms IS Romanian!
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 28, 2019, 06:50:21 PM
That said, I don't even understand your comment on Brahms 1. It smacks you in the face with something happening in the opening bar!! And good tunes too!
I am completely and utterlty unable to hear even a hint of a melody in the first movement. It's like an overblown, solemn introduction to something that is supposed to be grand and bold but never comes out. I always shout out loud "Come on, man, cut the crap and let the whole damn thing begin, whatever it is!" and I'm always disappointed. No, really, for me this is one of the worst Firsts ever.
I do like the other three, though --- but my favorite Brahms symphony is the Serenade op. 11. :D
Quote from: Ken B on February 28, 2019, 07:02:34 PM
Andrei just needs to be told Brahms composed it whilst traveling in Romania. Then he'll love it. 😉
Given that not even Enescu is among my favorites, I doubt it. ;D
Quote from: springrite on February 28, 2019, 09:00:47 PM
Born Johannes Brahmanescu, Brahms IS Romanian!
Ion Brămescu would more like it. ;)
There are "problems" with Brahms' first (I still love it, though), but not these. I find already the expressive oboe solo in the intro memorable, while maybe not an easily hummable melody.
The two middle movements are among Brahms' more melodic ones. The problem (and we discussed this elsewhere on this forum with amw, I think) is rather that the first movement seems almost self-contained with a resolution in the quiet coda but in spite of this Brahms wants a Beethoven-5th-like arch spanning the whole work. But unlike Beethoven's 5th (where the andante offers both some repose and prefigures the triumph of the finale, like a hopeful glimmer and the third movement is a reprise of the terror of the first) the middle movements seem "mere" intermezzi, not really connected to that dramatic-poetic arch.
And then he has to start over again with the finale conjuring up "storm clouds" to prepare for the triumph.
He totally avoids such problems in the other symphonies, though. (And while in the 2nd one could speak of "avoidance", basicall tacking two neoclassical movements on two romantic ones, the 3rd is very successful with a coherent arch from beginning to end and I also find that the 4th works well, despite not being too fond of its third mvmt.)
As for the first piano concerto the first movement also seemed to some complete in itself (like Schumann's "Konzerstücke" and the Ur-version of his piano concerto) I also love it, despite rough edges. It makes it up in tremendous energy and passion, aspects Brahms tended to subdue in later works.
I am reminded of the (completely unfair) Hugo Wolf criticism of the 1st PC: One could get a flu from such cold music.
I like the 2nd more but I have no problem whatsoever with the 1st.
Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2019, 12:14:35 AM
I am completely and utterlty unable to hear even a hint of a melody in the first movement. It's like an overblown, solemn introduction to something that is supposed to be grand and bold but never comes out. I always shout out loud "Come on, man, cut the crap and let the whole damn thing begin, whatever it is!" and I'm always disappointed. No, really, for me this is one of the worst Firsts ever.
I do like the other three, though --- but my favorite Brahms symphony is the Serenade op. 11. :D
Well, the serenades are beautiful indeed.
Quote from: Ken B on February 28, 2019, 02:51:45 PM
Schubert Trout Quintet
Probably the only Schubert I don't like
I knew a guy in college who ruined the Trout Quintet for every single one of his friends by narrating a whole story about how the quintet was a literal minute-by-minute depiction of trout fishing, complete with arm gestures of "listen! He's catching the trout!" and furious tugging on an imaginary fishing pole.
I also knew a guy in college who ruined The Rite of Spring even harder and more irredeemably by telling us that it was the perfect musical depiction of his sexual fantasies and that every time he heard it, it made him think of vigorous lovemaking.
EDIT: I like The Rite, so I did not list it, but I can't listen to it because of that guy. I might listen once every 2-3 years, and it's all his fault.
Quote from: San Antone on March 01, 2019, 06:40:58 AM
You went to school with some real weirdos. ??? 8)
TD
Orchestral music in general - symphonies - concertos. From reading GMG for several years I have been made aware of how out of step my listening is compared to most members. I could be wrong, but the majority of GMG-ers seem to listen to orchestral music most of the time.
So pick your favorite symphony or concerto - and I won't like it.
;)
My unscientific estimate is that I listen to orchestral music, chamber music and solo piano music in roughly equal proportions. "Heroic" romantic concertos don't really appeal to me (with a few exceptions), but I do enjoy baroque, neo-baroque and neo-classical concertos.
Quote from: San Antone on March 01, 2019, 06:40:58 AM
I could be wrong, but the majority of GMG-ers seem to listen to orchestral music most of the time.
That's my impression as well. I also share your preference for chamber music and solo piano. I don't actively dislike symphonies and concertos, though --- only those that are turgid, conceited and pretend to be rather philosophy or religion than music.
About Brahms's First... I love it. It's one of the most intoxicating depictions of victory I've ever heard of. Okay, the other movements than finale are not all that victorious but they're fine in their own right and make the ensuing victory in the last all the more impressive. And I'm not even nowadays the biggest Brahms fan there is! :D
Edit: I do share Florestan's love for Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony (easily my favorite) and the Eighth even though I still enjoy his other symphonies as well.
Quote from: Brian on March 01, 2019, 06:11:50 AM
I knew a guy in college who ruined the Trout Quintet for every single one of his friends by narrating a whole story about how the quintet was a literal minute-by-minute depiction of trout fishing, complete with arm gestures of "listen! He's catching the trout!" and furious tugging on an imaginary fishing pole.
I also knew a guy in college who ruined The Rite of Spring even harder and more irredeemably by telling us that it was the perfect musical depiction of his sexual fantasies and that every time he heard it, it made him think of vigorous lovemaking.
EDIT: I like The Rite, so I did not list it, but I can't listen to it because of that guy. I might listen once every 2-3 years, and it's all his fault.
Ohhhh. Keep your eyes open for a new poll, coming soon!
Quote from: Brian on March 01, 2019, 06:11:50 AM
I also knew a guy in college who ruined The Rite of Spring even harder and more irredeemably by telling us that it was the perfect musical depiction of his sexual fantasies and that every time he heard it, it made him think of vigorous lovemaking.
EDIT: I like The Rite, so I did not list it, but I can't listen to it because of that guy. I might listen once every 2-3 years, and it's all his fault.
I do think Rite's ending always sounded a bit premature.
Quote from: San Antone on March 01, 2019, 06:40:58 AMTD
Orchestral music in general - symphonies - concertos. From reading GMG for several years I have been made aware of how out of step my listening is compared to most members. I could be wrong, but the majority of GMG-ers seem to listen to orchestral music most of the time.
So pick your favorite symphony or concerto - and I won't like it.
;)
You don't like orchestral music because you hold onto some kind of silly notion that the genre is 'pompous', which, in turn, is a rather pompous attitude to hold. As I've said on the 'listening' thread, I love just about all genres of classical music whether it be a chamber work, solo piano, choral, ballet, etc. I'm quite certain that many of your favorite composers wrote something for the orchestra and I would suggest dropping the attitude and just letting yourself flow with the music.
For me, the matter about Beethoven symphonies is more about overplayings and overrecordings, rather than the works themselves. It was the first complete cycle I've ever heard and I still love it, but I avoid playing them lately.
P.S. I too love Brahms 1st!! My 2nd favorite after the 4th.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 01, 2019, 06:50:06 AM
My unscientific estimate is that I listen to orchestral music, chamber music and solo piano music in roughly equal proportions. "Heroic" romantic concertos don't really appeal to me (with a few exceptions), but I do enjoy baroque, neo-baroque and neo-classical concertos.
I don't keep track (because I listen to CDs, not playlists or so) but I also think that I do not listen mainly or mostly to orchestral. The one thing I tend to listen do considerably less than in earlier times is vocal music although I love lots of pieces from choral, Lieder, opera etc.
The concerto is for me often a problematic genre, especially if it's too much dominated by the soloist and by flashy virtuoso fireworks. Still, even Paganini is o.k. once in a blue moon... And while I like the "symphonic" concertos of e.g. Brahms, one overdo this as well and Reger's or Elgar's violin concerto or the Busoni piano concerto are not exactly favorites either.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 01, 2019, 09:01:46 AM
For me, the matter about Beethoven symphonies is more about overplayings and overrecordings, rather than the works themselves.
This is certainly a factor but in my case not the most important one.
Mozart, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff are also overplayed and overrecorded yet I dearly love their music. What I can't stand is the constant touting of
Beethoven as THE revolutionary, THE hero, THE man who singlehandedly changed the music forever (usually implying for better as well), THE model for future generations, THE unsurpassable genius, THE, THE, THE [you name it]. It's almost as if all important composers before him were nothing but its heralds and all important composers after him were nothing but his followers. And all that is indeed compound by the works themselves: I find
Beethoven's constant use of heroic, grand, bold, defiant etc etc etc musical topoi in his symphonies and concertos nauseating and unbearable, a few works excluded*.
That's why I vastly prefer his chamber and solo piano output. In such intimate settings he seems to have let go his heroic posture (although not entirely) and showed his more comprehensively humane nature.
*Heck, am I teh only one to remember that
Eroica was originally composed as a glorification of
Napoleon and that the only change
Beethoven made to it was striking the name of his former dedicatee off the score? ;D And then he went on to compose
Wellington's Victory --- which I actually prefer over
Eroica, it's in the same vein only much shorter. ;D
Bottom line, I acknowledge
Beethoven as a great, but not the greatest, composer; I love many of his works, mostly chamber and solo piano --- but of all the composers who followed him chronologically my favorites are those who were the least, if at all, influenced by him.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 01, 2019, 07:51:01 AM
I do think Rite's ending always sounded a bit premature.
The ballet that fits me is Spartacus. It's 4 hours.
New poll up, inspired by this discussion.
Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2019, 10:24:12 AM
This is certainly a factor but in my case not the most important one. Mozart, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff are also overplayed and overrecorded yet I dearly love their music. What I can't stand is the constant touting of Beethoven as THE revolutionary, THE hero, THE man who singlehandedly changed the music forever (usually implying for better as well), THE model for future generations, THE unsurpassable genius, THE, THE, THE [you name it]. It's almost as if all important composers before him were nothing but its heralds and all important composers after him were nothing but his followers. And all that is indeed compound by the works themselves: I find Beethoven's constant use of heroic, grand, bold, defiant etc etc etc musical topoi in his symphonies and concertos nauseating and unbearable, a few works excluded*.
That's why I vastly prefer his chamber and solo piano output. In such intimate settings he seems to have let go his heroic posture (although not entirely) and showed his more comprehensively humane nature.
*Heck, am I teh only one to remember that Eroica was originally composed as a glorification of Napoleon and that the only change Beethoven made to it was striking the name of his former dedicatee off the score? ;D And then he went on to compose Wellington's Victory --- which I actually prefer over Eroica, it's in the same vein only much shorter. ;D
Bottom line, I acknowledge Beethoven as a great, but not the greatest, composer; I love many of his works, mostly chamber and solo piano --- but of all the composers who followed him chronologically my favorites are those who were the least, if at all, influenced by him.
I don't like to hail any composer as this thing or that other either. They all have given their inputs to create this universe called music, if it had been little or much. In my particular case, I'm the guy who fixes more about the inherent sense of beauty from something and judging the beauty on music from many views, emotions and contexts, to and for the mere fact of enjoyment (as for this I look more pragmatical), rather than thinking this work annoys me because his creator is considered a Zeus or an Odin of music :D Of course the historical, academic, geographical, even scientific side of it allures me, but it's not the most relevant factor for me. In my opinion, Wagner is clearly one of the true geniuses of Western music, and so far, I haven't felt remorse because of his ideas about mankind, Nazism links, etc. Or if I hate Rossini for its
banal methods of apparent simplicity or because he supported such tyrant (in the case it were true, I'm speculating of course). What I love is music as it is, its creativity, its evolution, if it makes smile or cry or admire or long many aspects in your life, the astonishment it creates on people, its impact, the emotions one feels and the spiritual rest if offers you, catharsis, etc. Don't the philosophical-existencialist-emotional super hero 8) or respect for inspirating yourself or determined fixations.
I much respect your opinion. And you look to be right about the sophistication, greatness and intimacy of the chamber works and piano solo above the symphonic output. About that part I would agree with you.
New (ish) list:
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony
Rodrigo: Guitar Concerto
R. Strauss: Ein Heldenleben
Verdi's operas
Rossini operas
New Year's Day Concert from Vienna
VW: Serenade to Music
Handel: The Messiah
Schumann's symphonies
Mahler: The Song of the Earth
I know you'll all agree 8)
I mistakenly thought this was your list of the pieces you, vandermolen, find "most moving" (the other poll) and couldn't believe my eyes! ;D
Quote from: ritter on March 01, 2019, 02:11:40 PM
I mistakenly thought this was your list of the pieces you, vandermolen, find "most moving" (the other poll) and couldn't believe my eyes! ;D
Haha - I'd have had to have undergone a complete personality change (which my wife and daughter might think is a good idea!) 8)
Quote from: San Antone on March 01, 2019, 06:40:58 AM
You went to school with some real weirdos. ??? 8)
TD
Orchestral music in general - symphonies - concertos. From reading GMG for several years I have been made aware of how out of step my listening is compared to most members. I could be wrong, but the majority of GMG-ers seem to listen to orchestral music most of the time.
So pick your favorite symphony or concerto - and I won't like it.
;)
It's so interesting to read this. I have the opposite impression, that chamber is much preferred!
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2019, 01:57:18 PM
New (ish) list:
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony
Rodrigo: Guitar Concerto
R. Strauss: Ein Heldenleben
Verdi's operas
Rossini operas
New Year's Day Concert from Vienna
VW: Serenade to Music
Handel: The Messiah
Schuman's symphonies
Mahler: The Song of the Earth
I know you'll all agree 8)
Surely you mean Schuman
n, not Schuman! :o
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 01, 2019, 01:10:15 PM
I don't like to hail any composer as this thing or that other either. They all have given their inputs to create this universe called music, if it had been little or much. In my particular case, I'm the guy who fixes more about the inherent sense of beauty from something and judging the beauty on music from many views, emotions and contexts, to and for the mere fact of enjoyment (as for this I look more pragmatical), rather than thinking this work annoys me because his creator is considered a Zeus or an Odin of music :D Of course the historical, academic, geographical, even scientific side of it allures me, but it's not the most relevant factor for me. In my opinion, Wagner is clearly one of the true geniuses of Western music, and so far, I haven't felt remorse because of his ideas about mankind, Nazism links, etc. Or if I hate Rossini for its banal methods of apparent simplicity or because he supported such tyrant (in the case it were true, I'm speculating of course). What I love is music as it is, its creativity, its evolution, if it makes smile or cry or admire or long many aspects in your life, the astonishment it creates on people, its impact, the emotions one feels and the spiritual rest if offers you, catharsis, etc. Don't the philosophical-existencialist-emotional super hero 8) or respect for inspirating yourself or determined fixations.
I much respect your opinion. And you look to be right about the sophistication, greatness and intimacy of the chamber works and piano solo above the symphonic output. About that part I would agree with you.
Well, I think I was too harsh on, and rather unfair to, poor
Beethoven. Had he not gone deaf, his music would probably have been quite different. And after all he was my first favorite composer so criticizing him is a bit like reneging my early youth, which I'm not going to do. Heck, I can't even think of a top 10 favorites without him.
Plus, he can't be held accountable for his posterity and I'm not sure he would approve of his status being elevated to that of a musical demigod and his music being the object of a quasi-religious cult.
Yes, I've decidedly been unfair to him. But I still like his chamber and solo piano music much more than his symphonies.
Quote from: Florestan on March 02, 2019, 02:39:50 AM
Well, I think I was too harsh on, and rather unfair to, poor Beethoven. Had he not gone deaf, his music would probably have been quite different. And after all he was my first favorite composer so criticizing him is a bit like reneging my early youth, which I'm not going to do. Heck, I can't even think of a top 10 favorites without him.
Plus, he can't be held accountable for his posterity and I'm not sure he would approve of his status being elevated to that of a musical demigod and his music being the object of a quasi-religious cult.
Yes, I've decidedly been unfair to him. But I still like his chamber and solo piano music much more than his symphonies.
Same is true of Mozart, Brahms, Schumann, Schubert, Dvorak, Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and even Haydn!
Both Bach and Wagner are clearly ahead of Beethoven as far as "quasi-religious" cults go and Mozart is probably at least on Beethoven's level, in some cercles also Bruckner. This really a stupid reason for liking or disliking a composer's music.
Quote from: kyjo on March 01, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Surely you mean Schumann, not Schuman! :o
Yes I do. I love the Schuman symphonies (3 and 6 in particular). I'll correct it now. ::)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 01, 2019, 03:42:56 PM
It's so interesting to read this. I have the opposite impression, that chamber is much preferred!
My impression matches San Antone's. And not just orchestral, big orchestral. This place is a real hot bed of fans of gigantic and sometimes bombastic orchestral pieces. The most notorious examples would be the Shostakovich symphonies or some of Strauss's waddling behemoths. (Note how I diplomatically avoid mentioning Havergal Brian.)
And of course Gustav Mahler or Bruckner wrote big long things too (although much better ones).
Quote from: vandermolen on March 01, 2019, 01:57:18 PM
New (ish) list:
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony
Rodrigo: Guitar Concerto
R. Strauss: Ein Heldenleben
Verdi's operas
Rossini operas
New Year's Day Concert from Vienna
VW: Serenade to Music
Handel: The Messiah
Schumann's symphonies
Mahler: The Song of the Earth
I know you'll all agree 8)
Good listening list... oh,wait...
Admittedly, I've long avoided Messiah for as "christmas shit", certainly a shortsighted prejudice.
If anything it Messiah is "Lent sh*t" and I still find it almost indestructability great. But I don't live in a country where it has been commodified in the way it might have been for Xmas season in the US or Britain.
I don't think that the Messiah is 'sh*t' just that it doesn't appeal to me. My brother likes it very much and I enjoy other work by Handel.
Another one I forgot to mention.
Bach - Brandenburg Concertos
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 04, 2019, 04:38:34 AM
Another one I forgot to mention.
Bach - Brandenburg Concertos
Where is Sarge's bazooka when you need it? :)
I am not fond of the first one (especially not the boring dances that follow the first three movements) but I quite like the rest of the Brandenburgs, especially #5 which may be my favorite Bach concerto together with the E major violin concerto. But as with many other pieces, I have listened to this music so often in 30 years, that I rarely put them on nowadays.
I could easily do without the ouverture suites, although the two famous ones (2+3) are nice. And while they are probably not liked by "everyone else", the concerti for 3 and 4 harpsichords are pretty ugly, partly because of the massed harpsi sound. I clearly prefer the Vivaldi original in the case of the 4 soloists concerto and also the violin/oboe reconstruction of one of the 2 harpsichord concerti.
Quote from: kyjo on March 01, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Surely you mean Schumann, not Schuman! :o
Who's Schuma
nn? 8)
Quote from: Christo on March 04, 2019, 08:06:53 AM
Who's Schumann? 8)
Wow, a Saxon you've never heard of. Cool. :P
Quote from: Ken B on March 04, 2019, 07:06:27 AM
Where is Sarge's bazooka when you need it? :)
I think the dislike stems from the fact that I hate the recorder as an instrument. :-[
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 04, 2019, 08:46:48 AM
I think the dislike stems from the fact that I hate the recorder as an instrument. :-[
Four of them are recorder-free! And there are probably older recordings that have modern traverse flutes in 2 and 4.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 04, 2019, 08:52:14 AM
Four of them are recorder-free! And there are probably older recordings that have modern traverse flutes in 2 and 4.
It just goes to show you how much I really know these pieces, huh? :D My association is Brandenburg = Recorder. I should revisit the recorder free Brandenburgs.
Quote from: ChamberNut on March 04, 2019, 08:59:10 AM
It just goes to show you how much I really know these pieces, huh? :D My association is Brandenburg = Recorder. I should revisit the recorder free Brandenburgs.
As Jo said, there's always the option of hearing them with a flute instead. It would be a pity to miss such fine music as Badinerie because of an effing piece of wood. :D
The badinerie was always in the b minor suite with a traverse flute (although probably highjacked by some recorder players), not in a BRandenburg!
tbh I had already written "three are recorder free" but then looked it up and realized that they are only in 2 and 4.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 04, 2019, 09:11:39 AM
The badinerie was always in the b minor suite with a traverse flute (although probably highjacked by some recorder players), not in a BRandenburg!
Woooops, I had a brainfart. :D
There are some works which I think highly of but they have lost much of their appeal to me through over-familiarity.
Amongst these I'd include:
The Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams (it's broadcast almost every time I put on the radio).
Enigma Variations by Elgar
Concerto for Orchestra by Bartok
Quote from: vandermolen on March 05, 2019, 02:29:39 PM
There are some works which I think highly of but they have lost much of their appeal to me through over-familiarity.
Amongst these I'd include:
The Lark Ascending by Vaughan Williams (it's broadcast almost every time I put on the radio).
Enigma Variations by Elgar
Concerto for Orchestra by Bartok
I tend to agree with you about the Bartok. For me it's not that great, but it has its merits.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 05, 2019, 03:32:49 PM
I tend to agree with you about the Bartok. For me it's not that great, but it has its merits.
I never tire of Bartok's CfO. I've never understood the appeal of "The Lark Ascending."
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 05, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
I never tire of Bartok's CfO. I've never understood the appeal of "The Lark Ascending."
I now, for example, much prefer Bartok's PC No.3.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on March 05, 2019, 03:39:34 PM
I never tire of Bartok's CfO. I've never understood the appeal of "The Lark Ascending."
Yet that isn't that hard: RVW completed it in 1920, after returning home from the Great War, and made it an 'almost unbearable' monument of an innocent world lost and gone - not just an idyll, but an ideal type of an idyll.
Let's see...
Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra
Beethoven - Symphony no. 9
Brahms - Symphony no. 1
Bruch - Violin Concerto no. 1
Dvorak - "New World" Symphony and "American" Quartet
Elgar - Cello Concerto
Mahler - Symphony no. 5
Tchaikovsky - Violin Concerto, Rococo Variations, and ballets
Most of these works have simply lost their luster to me due to overexposure.
Quote from: kyjo on March 09, 2019, 07:36:28 PM
Let's see...
Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra
Beethoven - Symphony no. 9
Brahms - Symphony no. 1
Bruch - Violin Concerto no. 1
Dvorak - "New World" Symphony and "American" Quartet
Elgar - Cello Concerto
Mahler - Symphony no. 5
Tchaikovsky - Violin Concerto, Rococo Variations, and ballets
Most of these works have simply lost their luster to me due to overexposure.
Very largely the case for me too Kyle although maybe not the Mahler so much. I would rather listen to Miaskovsky's Cello Concerto than the Elgar, great as it is (my daughter's favourite classical work).
I'm still not going to commit myself to a 'Top 10' list, but I just never really understood why Ravel's Boléro is considered one of his best works. I've explored every inch of this composer's oeuvre and he remains one of my 'Top 3' composers, but Boléro has never done anything for me. In fact, I'm not a the biggest fan of Ravel's orchestral music as I seem to prefer the original versions for piano nowadays, but I do still have a great fondness for Daphnis et Chloé, the piano concerti (of course!), and Ma mère l'oye. Overall, I tend to favor his piano works, chamber music, mélodies (I'm including those incredible song cycles into this category), and L'enfant et les sortilèges. Boléro just kind always felt ho-hum to me and rather unremarkable.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
I'm still not going to commit myself to a 'Top 10' list, but I just never really understood why Ravel's Boléro is considered one of his best works. I've explored every inch of this composer's oeuvre and he remains one of my 'Top 3' composers, but Boléro has never done anything for me. In fact, I'm not a the biggest fan of Ravel's orchestral music as I seem to prefer the original versions for piano nowadays, but I do still have a great fondness for Daphnis et Chloé, the piano concerti (of course!), and Ma mère l'oye. Overall, I tend to favor his piano works, chamber music, mélodies (I'm including those incredible song cycles into this category), and L'enfant et les sortilèges. Boléro just kind always felt ho-hum to me and rather unremarkable.
Progress! You won't be fully cured until you discover that all of Debussy's best music is for piano. :P $:) ;)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
I just never really understood why Ravel's Boléro is considered one of his best works.
A catchy melody, a rythm that once heard will stay in one's head forever, a 10-minute free lesson in orchestration plus an orgasm as bonus --- what more could you ask for? 8)
No, really, that's neoclassicism at its best: a master craftsman composer knowing what the audience would love, and delivering it big time.
Haydn did it,
Mozart did it.
Neither Haydn nor Mozart ever wrote a boring 10 min lesson in orchestration... they had better audiences, I guess.
You know there is a law of musical history that many composers are not best known for their best works. I.e. Bach with toccata and fugue d minor (that might not be by him or an arrangement) or "Air on the G string", Mozart with Eine kleine Nachtmusik, Beethoven with a trifle like Pour Elise, Mendelssohn with the Wedding March, Brahms with Hungarian dances or that A flat major waltz, Liszt with Hungarian Rhapsodies and Liebesträume, Tchaikovsky with 1812 and the Sugar Plum fairy, Wagner with Lohengrin and Tannhäuser. :D
In the worst cases, the best known works are not even by the composers famous for them, e.g. the "Serenade" quartet movement that is almost certainly not by Haydn. Or the "trumpet voluntary" that had been ascribed to Purcell for a long time (it's by Jeremiah Clarke).
Ravel could not escape that law ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on March 16, 2019, 09:22:41 AM
Neither Haydn nor Mozart ever wrote a boring 10 min lesson in orchestration... they had better audiences, I guess.
Come on,
Bolero boring? In a quarter of an hour it's over, all the while you can check your whatsup or look for pretty ladies in the attendance or even hum your favorite Schoenberg. During
The Ring you're not even supposed to budge your neck, remember the physical traits of your first love or fall asleep --- 4 hours a day, 4 days a week. ;D
QuoteMozart with Eine kleine Nachtmusik,
I beg your pardon? EKNM is echt, quintessential Mozart. Anyone who disdain it is a tasteless ass.
QuoteBeethoven with a trifle like Pour Elise,
As opposed to the
noble and profound vulgar and coarse four-note fate motif.
Quote
Mendelssohn with the Wedding March,
To write something that people would play and hum in some of their happiest moments, for generations and generations and generations to come --- can you think of a closer claim to immortality?
QuoteBrahms with Hungarian dances
I'd rather have them all in a row than that conceit of a First Symphony.
Quoteor that A flat major waltz,
A gem, one of Brahms' most felicitous inventions, whose melodic contour was actually an
idée fixe of Brahms, cf. the Trio of the Op. 8 Piano Trio's Scherzo, the first theme of the 2nd Symphony's
Allegro non troppo and even the finale of the Violin Concerto --- among many other instances.
QuoteLiszt with Hungarian Rhapsodies and Liebesträume,
Well, Liszt played the Hungarian and the lover all his life --- call it poetical justice.
QuoteTchaikovsky with 1812 and the Sugar Plum fairy,
Here you do have a point.
QuoteWagner with Lohengrin and Tannhäuser. :D
What's wrong with a composer being remembered for his best orchestral works?
QuoteIn the worst cases, the best known works are not even by the composers famous for them, e.g. the "Serenade" quartet movement that is almost certainly not by Haydn.
What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.Quote
Ravel could not escape that law ;)
As long as
Bolero will be played and enjoyed, Ravel's name and fame will be alive. Get over it.
Bolero is the essence of Ravel. When you tell people you like Ravel they associate you with Bolero, now, and for the rest of time. "Jo, he's the Bolero guy."
>:D
Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
And why not?
I watched a movie the other night. There was a throw away line about trying to seduce someone by ... putting on some Ravel.
I don't mind Boléro at all. That bewitching melody, the drone of the rhythm ... what's not to like? Besides, it's sex set to music! :-*
That said, I don't want to listen to it all the time. Not tonight, dear, I have a headache.
Quote from: Alek Hidell on March 16, 2019, 12:50:36 PM
I don't mind Boléro at all. That bewitching melody, the drone of the rhythm ... what's not to like? Besides, it's sex set to music! :-*
Great minds etc.
Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2019, 10:27:11 AM
Anyone who disdain it is a tasteless ass.
Always nice to hear that I am a tasteless ass.
Quote from: kyjo on March 09, 2019, 07:36:28 PM
Let's see...
Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra
Beethoven - Symphony no. 9
Brahms - Symphony no. 1
Bruch - Violin Concerto no. 1
Dvorak - "New World" Symphony and "American" Quartet
Elgar - Cello Concerto
Mahler - Symphony no. 5
Tchaikovsky - Violin Concerto, Rococo Variations, and ballets
Most of these works have simply lost their luster to me due to overexposure.
That's true for a lot of things with me, The famous the work, the more likely it bores me, because I have listened to it so many times over the years. Beethoven and Mahler are about the only composers who have escaped this syndrome.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 15, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
I'm still not going to commit myself to a 'Top 10' list, but I just never really understood why Ravel's Boléro is considered one of his best works. .... Boléro just kind always felt ho-hum to me and rather unremarkable.
I tend to agree. But La Valse is just as boring as Bolero.
Quote from: JBS on March 16, 2019, 04:59:19 PM
I tend to agree. But La Valse is just as boring as Bolero.
La Valse is another work that I've never warmed to either. I will say I feel it's a rather inventive work. Man, I really dislike putting down Ravel as I mentioned before he's one of my absolute favorites, but every great composer has made missteps or has works that people just aren't going to like. That's just the way it is.
I like Bolero but not La Valse.
They are totally different. Bolero is something like a minimalist/experimental dance piece and La Valse is more of a symphonic poem far darker and also richer in material (it's no contest pro La Valse for me although it's not among my absolute Ravel favorites either).
Quote from: Alberich on March 16, 2019, 04:40:43 PM
Always nice to hear that I am a tasteless ass.
No, you're not. Don't take it too personal. :D
I was joking. ;) And, for what it's worth, I do like the finale of Nachtmusik. So I guess I'm a 3/4 tasteless ass :D Just kidding. :)
Symphonie Fantastique by Berlioz.
I cannot for the life of me get to be intrigued or touched or excited or anything by it
EDIT Damn, that was an awful typo... "Berlios", ahahah.
Quote from: Overtones on March 18, 2019, 08:27:34 AM
Symphonie Fantastique by Berlios.
I cannot for the life of me get to be intrigued or touched or excited or anything by it
I didn't like it at first listening but eventually I grew to love it as I do damn near every Berlioz work.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 17, 2019, 12:37:41 AM
I like Bolero but not La Valse.
Uncannily similar to what I would say: I love Bolero but not La Valse. 8)
Quote from: vandermolen on March 17, 2019, 12:37:41 AM
I like Bolero but not La Valse.
Ah, finally a point we disagree on! ;D I much prefer
La valse to
Bolero, though I don't actively dislike the latter.
Quote from: Lisztianwagner on June 12, 2014, 11:21:14 AM
I have some problems with Italian Opera, especially its most illustrious figure:
Verdi: Nabucco
Verdi: La traviata
Verdi: Aida
Verdi: Don Carlo
Verdi: Rigoletto
Me too!
I love both La Valse and the Bolero, with different parts of my brain.
I don't disdain Eine kleine Nachtmusik. But there are probably around 100 Mozart works that are clearly superior and probably another 100 that would be at least as deserving of such widespread popularity. The popularity is _comparably_ recent, beginning only in the 1890s or later. According to wikipedia the first large Mozart biography by Otto Jahn (1859) doesn't seem to be aware of the piece's existence.