GMG Classical Music Forum

Question from a sociological curiosity.

Quote from: epicous on July 28, 2014, 07:43:26 PM
Question from a sociological curiosity.

Brahms?

But I have no problem with most religiously-inspired classical music, just as I have no problem with all the gods and goddesses of Homeric literature.

While I have a problem with a lot of church music, the problem isn't that it's religious - the problem is that it's boring. Maybe a few more decades of maturity/senility is what it takes for me to not fall asleep during Bach's St. John Passion.

But I do listen to plenty of church music: in particular I seem to love everybody's Te Deum, from Haydn to Dvorak, from Berlioz to Kodaly, from Bruckner to Havergal Brian. Morten Lauridsen's stuff is wonderful. Everything by Poulenc. For some reason I prefer Zelenka to Bach; is that crazy? But yeah, okay, if forced to choose, my favorite sacred music is the Glagolitic Mass, and Janacek was an atheist.

EDIT: Forgot Zelenka.

I'm hardly an atheist, but I'm not a Bible-thumper either. I do like some so-called 'religious music' in particular requiems, but, like Brian, I find most religious music boring and rather tedious.

Quote from: Brian on July 28, 2014, 08:16:16 PM
my favorite sacred music is the Glagolitic Mass, and Janacek was an atheist.

Yeah, Janáček was my first thought.  I love pretty much everything of his I've ever heard, starting with the operas, but our common atheism has nothing to do with it. I'd love it even if I discovered he was a closet bible-thumper.  I like a lot of religious music, and don't listen to composers based on their religious views.

Quote from: Wendell_E on July 29, 2014, 02:49:36 AM
I like a lot of religious music, and don't listen to composers based on their religious views.

Same here. I love a lot of religious art (including paintings, eg Caravaggio, etc, etc) despite being a convinced atheist. Good art transcends mundane things (!) like religion.

Xenakis, lately.

Hmm...lots of big names in the wikipedia list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_music

Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2014, 03:06:27 AM
Same here. I love a lot of religious art (including paintings, eg Caravaggio, etc, etc) despite being a convinced atheist. Good art transcends mundane things (!) like religion.

Oddly enough, and perhaps to my discredit, I love a lot of religious music, and love a lot of religious literature (think Dostoevsky), but medieval and Renaissance religious paintings bore me. Usually I briskly walk through those rooms of the museum while thinking "oh, look, it's Mary again... oh, look, it's Jesus being sad again." But I do love Salvador Dali's "The Temptation of St. Anthony." (http://uploads3.wikiart.org/images/salvador-dali/the-temptation-of-st-anthony.jpg)

Yes that's to your discredit. ;) I spent some timne in Prado recently, and it is beyond me how one can avoid being moved by stuff like Velasques, Riera, el Greco et al. It is not about Jesus being dead, but about he loss of a dear one. And the craftsmanship is so superb that one is at a loss of words whatever the subject. But you cannot walk thorugh those large halls, you must pick a few paintings and spend time with them only.

Bach, Josquin, Palestrina, Ockeghem, Schütz, Stravinsky, Purcell, Bruckner, Dufay, Lassus.

All of these worthies disbelieved in Zeus or any of the other classical gods and were, in Roman terms, atheists. (I prefer to see the best in people  >:D)

Well, I'm a huge Shostakovich fan, and he was very likely an atheist.

And a great RVW fan, and he was an agnostic.

Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2014, 04:57:59 AM
Yes that's to your discredit. ;) I spent some timne in Prado recently, and it is beyond me how one can avoid being moved by stuff like Velasques, Riera, el Greco et al. It is not about Jesus being dead, but about he loss of a dear one. And the craftsmanship is so superb that one is at a loss of words whatever the subject. But you cannot walk thorugh those large halls, you must pick a few paintings and spend time with them only.

That's always been my strategy. I love those donation museums like MMA in New York. Go in, sit in front of one or two paintings for some time, and then take a walk in the park!

Quote from: Brian on July 29, 2014, 04:45:58 AM
Oddly enough, and perhaps to my discredit, I love a lot of religious music, and love a lot of religious literature (think Dostoevsky), but medieval and Renaissance religious paintings bore me.

What have I missed? Why should this be to your discredit?

Quote from: Brian on July 29, 2014, 04:45:58 AM
Oddly enough, and perhaps to my discredit, I love a lot of religious music, and love a lot of religious literature (think Dostoevsky), but medieval and Renaissance religious paintings bore me. Usually I briskly walk through those rooms of the museum while thinking "oh, look, it's Mary again... oh, look, it's Jesus being sad again." But I do love Salvador Dali's "The Temptation of St. Anthony." (http://uploads3.wikiart.org/images/salvador-dali/the-temptation-of-st-anthony.jpg)

The thing that sticks out in my mind most from my short visit to Florence is Fra Angelico. I'm an atheist and I was utterly moved by those frescoes.

Quote from: milk on July 29, 2014, 05:26:23 AM
The thing that sticks out in my mind most from my short visit to Florence is Fra Angelico. I'm an atheist and I was utterly moved by those frescoes.

One of the outstanding pictures that I still remember as outstanding from the Prado was a Fra Angelico.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Fra_Angelico_-_The_Annunciation_-_)

Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2014, 04:57:59 AM
Yes that's to your discredit. ;) I spent some timne in Prado recently, and it is beyond me how one can avoid being moved by stuff like Velasques, Riera, el Greco et al. It is not about Jesus being dead, but about he loss of a dear one. And the craftsmanship is so superb that one is at a loss of words whatever the subject. But you cannot walk thorugh those large halls, you must pick a few paintings and spend time with them only.

Yes, it is so. I am an atheist who loves music, so I have some interest in this thread. For many years I avoided anything which smacked of religion. Then I discovered how splendid most of this music is, and now I am as big an enthusiast as there is, albeit of a very narrow range of time and place. It stands to reason; like it or not, the Catholic (and later, Protestant) rulers were the ones with the time, money, interest and I will say, vested interest, in commissioning art in all forms. For most people, Mass was their only exposure to music, and to art, too. If one was to effectively shut out this entire genre for quasi-philosophical reasons, it doesn't hurt the religions any, it only deprives you of a big chunk of art!

8)

Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2014, 04:57:59 AM
Yes that's to your discredit. ;) I spent some timne in Prado recently, and it is beyond me how one can avoid being moved by stuff like Velasques, Riera, el Greco et al. It is not about Jesus being dead, but about he loss of a dear one. And the craftsmanship is so superb that one is at a loss of words whatever the subject. But you cannot walk thorugh those large halls, you must pick a few paintings and spend time with them only.

Oh, I love Velazquez, every time. I am thinking more of the Italian Renaissance.

Quote from: Brian on July 29, 2014, 06:13:31 AM
Oh, I love Velazquez, every time. I am thinking more of the Italian Renaissance.

Yes, that can be more formalized, particularly the early stuff. In this connection eg Caravaggio probably is considered baroque.

Quote from: Brian on July 29, 2014, 06:13:31 AM
Oh, I love Velazquez, every time. I am thinking more of the Italian Renaissance.

Brian, did you make it to Colmar? If so, what did you think of the Isenheim Altarpiece by Matthias Grünewald (Mathis der Maler)?

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/IMG_1313_1024.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/IMG_1314_1024.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june12/IMG_1316_1024.jpg)


Sarge

I appreciate beauty and nature, but don't think some divine creature has created them. I'm fairly sure religious composers, painters, poets, or other artists appreciate(d) the beauty also, and not just because they believed in some supernatural creature, perhaps the other way round. Religion has influenced our cultures a great deal of course, so I might spin some suitable religious works during Easter or Christmas more probably than at other times.

The context of this quote is rather different, but I think it would fit in this topic, too.

Quote from: Alban BergMr. Gershwin, music is music.

Quote from: Brian on July 29, 2014, 06:13:31 AM
Oh, I love Velazquez, every time. I am thinking more of the Italian Renaissance.

Quote from: The new erato on July 29, 2014, 06:16:03 AM
Yes, that can be more formalized, particularly the early stuff. In this connection eg Caravaggio probably is considered baroque.

Yes, Caravaggio is Baroque. Council of Trent in 1543-1563 and the Counter-Reformation started Baroque in Italy and the neighbouring regions, and eventually it spread to Protestant countries.

Luckily (for Brian, at least  8)) there is more to Italian Renaissance than just religious (Christian) paintings.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Venus_and_Mars.jpg/1920px-Venus_and_Mars.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/La_nascita_di_Venere_(Botticelli).jpg/640px-La_nascita_di_Venere_(Botticelli).jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Hunt_in_the_forest_by_paolo_uccello.jpg)  (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Fornarina.jpg/342px-Fornarina.jpg) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Saint_John_the_Baptist_C2RMF_retouched.jpg/640px-Leonardo_da_Vinci_-_Saint_John_the_Baptist_C2RMF_retouched.jpg)

Thanks for sharing those, Sarge;  I had seen them, of course, but not photographed in this setting.

Quote from: Brian on July 28, 2014, 08:16:16 PM

But I do listen to plenty of church music: in particular I seem to love everybody's Te Deum...

I was once close friends with a Sikh who loved Te Deums; he studied and collected them religiously.  :)

Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2014, 07:08:23 AM
Thanks for sharing those, Sarge;  I had seen them, of course, but not photographed in this setting.

+1
I'd love to see the Isenheim Altarpiece live some day..
(http://www.oberlin.edu/images/Art335/335-097.JPG) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_W8k_-zfUyVg/R_wh9K73P2I/AAAAAAAAAZU/Lz63oTX42MQ/s400/Slide11.jpg)
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdhekgsnUw1qggdq1.jpg) (http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH_214images/grunewald/crucified_christ_det2.jpg)

Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2014, 07:08:23 AM
Thanks for sharing those, Sarge;  I had seen them, of course, but not photographed in this setting.

Quote from: North Star on July 29, 2014, 07:20:18 AM
+1
I'd love to see the Isenheim Altarpiece live some day..

I took the photos in 2004. It is an impressive work seen in person. The small city of Colmar, too, is worth a visit. Quite beautiful.

Sarge

In my experience, there is no correlation between religious affiliation and great artistry.  It is true that for many artists (musicians included), their religious beliefs inform their art; but this is no guarantee that the work will be great.  Far too much "religious art" focuses more on the religion than the art.  (And that includes "religious affiliations" such as a total belief in the Third Reich or any other human government.)

Quote from: North Star on July 29, 2014, 07:20:18 AM
+1
I'd love to see the Isenheim Altarpiece live some day..
(http://www.oberlin.edu/images/Art335/335-097.JPG) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_W8k_-zfUyVg/R_wh9K73P2I/AAAAAAAAAZU/Lz63oTX42MQ/s400/Slide11.jpg)
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdhekgsnUw1qggdq1.jpg) (http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH_214images/grunewald/crucified_christ_det2.jpg)

I did, in 2012.

Quote from: jochanaan on July 29, 2014, 09:32:11 AM
In my experience, there is no correlation between religious affiliation and great artistry.  It is true that for many artists (musicians included), their religious beliefs inform their art; but this is no guarantee that the work will be great.

Amen, brother.  I've read through too much piffle in the guise of sacred choral music, though I make no doubt the composer is earnestly faithful.

Blargh, the one thing I didn't do in Colmar; walked in the museum, but didn't buy a ticket because I had to dash to the train station. The night before I'd arrived and gone straight to the Talich Quartet concert at 6:15.

For us atheists art is the best thing religions have to offer. Religion tends to insult my intelligence. J. S. Bach's music challenges it. Big difference.  0:)

Quote from: 71 dB on July 29, 2014, 11:33:45 AM
For us atheists art is the best thing religions have to offer. Religion tends to insult my intelligence. J. S. Bach's music challenges it. Big difference.  0:)

Religions may offer atheists - such as myself - something else just as precious : an opportunity to be tolerant if not compassionate.  I can understand, even commiserate, with the needs religions fill:  solace, explanation, a sense of belonging.  It's when religions go beyond providing those - and when they adopt their own intolerance toward others - that they have gone most astray and wreaked havoc in the world.   

The interesting thing - to me - about the op's question, is that so much music - even if composed for outwardly secular purposes, is so deeply spiritual in nature, making the orig. question a bit more complex than perhaps intended.  I think that music of many kinds serves "religious needs" of atheists or agnostics such as myself and often in unconscious ways.   

Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 29, 2014, 01:04:28 PMThe interesting thing - to me - about the op's question, is that so much music - even if composed for outwardly secular purposes, is so deeply spiritual in nature, making the orig. question a bit more complex than perhaps intended.

True, and also applies to visual arts, I'd say. But spiritual and religious can mean quite different things.

QuoteI think that music of many kinds serves "religious needs" of atheists or agnostics such as myself and often in unconscious ways.

And to believers/churchgoers, too, I'd say. Both concerts and masses have the social aspect. A sermon rarely manages to synchronize the heartbeat & breathing of the congregation, though, compared to music. 8)

I don't think I have "religious needs", but I definitely have intellectual needs.

Quote from: North Star on July 29, 2014, 02:06:21 PM
True, and also applies to visual arts, I'd say. But spiritual and religious can mean quite different things.
And to believers/churchgoers, too, I'd say. Both concerts and masses have the social aspect. A sermon rarely manages to synchronize the heartbeat & breathing of the congregation, though, compared to music. 8)

Concur, though the visual arts (excepting the most abstract), tending as they do toward representations of physical reality, leave music - commonly regarded as 'ineffable' - as the art form offering the closest counterpart to a 'spiritual depiction' of an indescribable heaven.

And while religious, spiritual and intellectual can and do mean different things ( pace North Star and 71 db, my point was so poorly expressed) they have more in common, psychologically, motivationally, than they differ.  A better, broader understanding of their commonality might, I hope, lead to greater understanding, if not harmony, between those of ostensibly "different" persuasions. 

Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 29, 2014, 05:47:58 PM
Concur, though the visual arts (excepting the most abstract), tending as they do toward representations of physical reality, leave music - commonly regarded as 'ineffable' - as the art form offering the closest counterpart to a 'spiritual depiction' of an indescribable heaven.

And while religious, spiritual and intellectual can and do mean different things ( pace North Star and 71 db, my point was so poorly expressed) they have more in common, psychologically, motivationally, than they differ.  A better, broader understanding of their commonality might, I hope, lead to greater understanding, if not harmony, between those of ostensibly "different" persuasions.

Spiritual is a snake oil word. There are no spirits.

So let me get this straight, Z7, atheist. You are talking about a trinity, one essence with three reprsentations; how this works is a mystery ...
>:D >:D

I don't believe "spiritual" exists. Things can be human (human spirit), philosophical, religious, logical, true or false but not spiritual. People may call themselves spiritual in order to make an excuse for having silly thoughts. Such excuse is silly itself. Being silly is only human, no need to make excuses.

So from the Wikipedia list above, we have:
Bartok
Berlioz
Bizet
Boulez
Percy Grainger
Ligeti
Prokofiev
Rimsky-Korsakov
Saint-Saens
Shostakovich
Varese
to name just the ones in my collection.

So yes.

But then, I don't listen to any of them because they are atheists. I didn't even know many of them were atheists until now.

Quote from: Ken B on July 29, 2014, 07:05:32 PM
There are no spirits.

In my cupboard, there is.

Quote from: 71 dB on July 29, 2014, 07:10:51 PM
I don't believe "spiritual" exists. Things can be human (human spirit), philosophical, religious, logical, true or false but not spiritual. People may call themselves spiritual in order to make an excuse for having silly thoughts. Such excuse is silly itself. Being silly is only human, no need to make excuses.

Quote from: Ken B on July 29, 2014, 07:05:32 PM
Spiritual is a snake oil word. There are no spirits.

So let me get this straight, Z7, atheist. You are talking about a trinity, one essence with three reprsentations; how this works is a mystery ...
>:D >:D

We may be talking at cross-purposes here.  I agree, objectively, the spiritual does not exist.  As a (self-styled) phenomenologist, however, I give credence for study purposes to human descriptions, perceptions, and judgments.   Admittedly subjective, experiential, these can nevertheless reveal much about the inner workings and structure of human thought and emotion.  In their sum total they equal what it means to be human - often silly, yes, and often tragic.  And I might add they offer much to those who are interested in the effects of music on listeners. 

Now let me at that cupboard where the spiritual is kept...

Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2014, 05:22:45 AM
Well, I'm a huge Shostakovich fan, and he was very likely an atheist.

And a great RVW fan, and he was an agnostic.

Me too, in both cases. I listen to a lot of Bruckner too and he was a firm believer.

'Spiritual' has to do with human beings' capability of thinking, and abstract thinking in particular.

Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 30, 2014, 05:12:07 AM
We may be talking at cross-purposes here.  I agree, objectively, the spiritual does not exist.  As a (self-styled) phenomenologist, however, I give credence for study purposes to human descriptions, perceptions, and judgments.   Admittedly subjective, experiential, these can nevertheless reveal much about the inner workings and structure of human thought and emotion.  In their sum total they equal what it means to be human - often silly, yes, and often tragic.  And I might add they offer much to those who are interested in the effects of music on listeners. 

Now let me at that cupboard where the spiritual is kept...

"spiritual" is a word for a swathe of emotional reactions, but an unhelpful one because it implies something about their cause or their value as evidence. Substitute "Great Pumpkinish" for "spiritual" and you will get a good idea of what I, and I think 71 dB, mean.  ;)

Quote from: Ken B on July 30, 2014, 09:22:38 AM
Substitute "Great Pumpkinish" for "spiritual" and you will get a good idea of what I, and I think 71 dB, mean.  ;)

Which is to say, scorn.  Yes, that registers, and does not reflect particularly well.

Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 06:14:59 AM
'Spiritual' has to do with human beings' capability of thinking, and abstract thinking in particular.

And, I think, an apt affirmation from Our Favorite Agnostic:

Quote from: RVW, 1948... music is not only an `entertainment', nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.

Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2014, 10:21:04 AM
And, I think, an apt affirmation from Our Favorite Agnostic:

Apt, indeed.
(I thought that was Schwammerl.  8))

Quote from: Ansel AdamsI believe in beauty. I believe in stones and water, air and soil, people and their future and their fate.

Quote from: karlhenning on July 30, 2014, 09:28:29 AM
Which is to say, scorn.  Yes, that registers, and does not reflect particularly well.

Scorn for the implication that claims of "spirituality" should trump reason or evidence, yes. And such claims are routinely made. That's the whole point of describing it as due to something external.
The Great Pumpkin, like the spritual realm, is something external and non-existent.
But if you like try the experiment with a subjective and purely descriptive term that carries no such implication. Examples are "exciting" or "hilarious". That I hope passes under your scorn detector unremarked. No-one would claim that an excited or amused feeling in response to an incident, or piece of art, has vouchsafed to one an insight into the world, or how other people should be treated. That is precisely what is claimed for "spiritual" experiences. And that claim deserves scorn.

Quote from: Ken B on July 30, 2014, 11:14:59 AM
No-one would claim that an excited or amused feeling in response to an incident, or piece of art, has vouchsafed to one an insight into the world, or how other people should be treated. That is precisely what is claimed for "spiritual" experiences.

Au contraire, that is precisely what is not claimed.

The very pure spirit does not bother about the regard of others or human respect, but communes inwardly with God, alone and in solitude as to all forms, and with delightful tranquility, for the knowledge of God is received in divine silence. - St. John of the Cross.

The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The quieter it is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the quiet mind all things are possible. What is a quiet mind? A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own. - Meister Eckhart

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I will meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about
language, ideas, even the phrase each other
doesn't make any sense. - Rumi

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."
As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin. - Zen koan

Quote from: North Star on July 30, 2014, 06:14:59 AM
'Spiritual' has to do with human beings' capability of thinking, and abstract thinking in particular.

Abstract thinking has nothing to do with spiritualims. Feelings and emotions are different from thinking.

Are intelligent animals like dolphins spiritual? Answering that question is not important, thinking about it is.

Rationalization of our feelings and emotions with terms like 'spiritual' is totally unnecessory. We are what we are. If you feel it you feel it. What is important is the understanding of what it means when you feel something.

Quote from: 71 dB on July 31, 2014, 03:11:46 AM
Abstract thinking has nothing to do with spiritualims. Feelings and emotions are different from thinking.

Are intelligent animals like dolphins spiritual? Answering that question is not important, thinking about it is.

Rationalization of our feelings and emotions with terms like 'spiritual' is totally unnecessory. We are what we are. If you feel it you feel it. What is important is the understanding of what it means when you feel something.

Yeah, right. I'm sure pandas and dolphins ponder the meaning of life, ethics & aesthetics all the time. And do you really think language has developed separately, that people have wondered about the same things before they had the words for them?

Now I'm thinking of Hudson Hawk, and Andy MacDowell speaking with the dolphins  8)

Quote from: Florestan on July 31, 2014, 01:38:42 AM
Au contraire, that is precisely what is not claimed.

The very pure spirit does not bother about the regard of others or human respect, but communes inwardly with God, alone and in solitude as to all forms, and with delightful tranquility, for the knowledge of God is received in divine silence. - St. John of the Cross.

The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The quieter it is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the quiet mind all things are possible. What is a quiet mind? A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own. - Meister Eckhart

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I will meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about
language, ideas, even the phrase each other
doesn't make any sense. - Rumi

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."
As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin. - Zen koan

Thank you for one of the most edifying contributions to the thread.

Quote from: North Star on July 31, 2014, 03:41:51 AM
Yeah, right. I'm sure pandas and dolphins ponder the meaning of life, ethics & aesthetics all the time. And do you really think language has developed separately, that people have wondered about the same things before they had the words for them?

Well, pandas probably think only how to find tasty bamboo rods to chew.  :D Dolphins must have some kind of ethics, at least at some level. Otherwise we wouldn't have those stories about how dolphins have rescued swimmers from drowning.

What are these "same things"? Sure, you can't think about books if you don't have words. Language gives a way to communicate your thoughts to other, share them. However, this about the hsitory of linguistics, not 'spiriual'.

Animals do communicate too. Also, animals learn to understand human communication and vice versa.

Quote from: Florestan on July 31, 2014, 01:38:42 AM
Au contraire, that is precisely what is not claimed.

The very pure spirit does not bother about the regard of others or human respect, but communes inwardly with God, alone and in solitude as to all forms, and with delightful tranquility, for the knowledge of God is received in divine silence. - St. John of the Cross.

The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The quieter it is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the quiet mind all things are possible. What is a quiet mind? A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own. - Meister Eckhart

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I will meet you there.
When the soul lies down in that grass,
the world is too full to talk about
language, ideas, even the phrase each other
doesn't make any sense. - Rumi

A soldier named Nobushige came to Hakuin, and asked: "Is there really a paradise and a hell?"
"Who are you?" inquired Hakuin.
"I am a samurai," the warrior replied.
"You, a soldier!" exclaimed Hakuin. "What kind of ruler would have you as his guard? Your face looks like that of a beggar."
Nobushige became so angry that he began to draw his sword, but Hakuin continued: "So you have a sword! Your weapon is probably much too dull to cut off my head."
As Nobushige drew his sword Hakuin remarked: "Here open the gates of hell!"
At these words the samurai, perceiving the master's discipline, sheathed his sword and bowed.
"Here open the gates of paradise," said Hakuin. - Zen koan

You can't be serious Andrei. You really truly honesty deny that people who claim to have spiritual experiences also claim that these experiences vouchsafe to them insights or justifications denied to the rest of us? Really?
And as proof your first citation is a man claiming a directl line to god's will?

Quote from: Ken B on July 31, 2014, 05:14:16 AM
You can't be serious Andrei.

You know, discussion and disagreement are so much less noisome when one has the character to treat the other fellow with respect.  Even if you are in the right, your cause is not diminished by failing to show contempt for the fellow you disagree with.

Long experience here (and elsewhere) have taught me a major lesson, which I freely impart to you all: discussions of religion and anti-religion never amount to anything because deep-seated beliefs are immutable. When the first post was made in this thread I knew it was destined for the refuse heap, but thought we might see what sort of discussion developed. As it always will be, this was a mistake on my part. I won't make it again.

GB