GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Classical Music for Beginners => Topic started by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 10:25:36 PM

Title: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 10:25:36 PM
I found this nice websites that explains the basicswww.teoria.com (http://www.teoria.com) if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 10:30:26 PM
QuoteFourths are:

    perfect if they have 2 1/2 whole steps (5 half steps)

    augmented if they have 3 whole steps (6 half steps)

why did they go from using major minor to augmented and perfect?
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 11:17:52 PM
Construct: major second descending

its showing me a note on e so it has to be something d. half a step down should be d sharp so 1 whole step should be d.


God I swear im being fucked with right now. I spent half an hour thinking what I did wrong when it told me Construct: major second descending and it was on c and i clicked b. Was that wrong? I hate this website!
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 11:23:42 PM
 major second ascending its on b so 1 note up is c right? Why c sharp? I really don't get it.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: tjguitar on July 24, 2007, 11:37:20 PM
Quote from: Mozart on July 24, 2007, 10:30:26 PM
why did they go from using major minor to augmented and perfect?

Cause there is no major or minor for those intervals, there's perfect, augmented and diminished....



Quotemajor second ascending its on b so 1 note up is c right? Why c sharp? I really don't get it.

No. That would be the minor 2nd.  The major 2nd would be C#, if I'm not mistaken...
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 25, 2007, 03:03:59 AM
QuoteCause there is no major or minor for those intervals, there's perfect, augmented and diminished....

can you explain what that means?
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 25, 2007, 03:11:36 AM
I think I understand my confusion. Is it because sometimes the piano has 2 white keys next to each other that b would go to c sharp on a major 2nd?
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 25, 2007, 04:07:53 AM
Quote from: Mozart on July 25, 2007, 03:11:36 AM
I think I understand my confusion. Is it because sometimes the piano has 2 white keys next to each other that b would go to c sharp on a major 2nd?


Think in terms of the whole and half steps, as well as the spelling. A second, no matter how it "sounds" on the piano, must be spelled as two adjacent notes on the staff.

A minor second: B-C or Bb-Cb
A major second: B-C# or Bb-C
An augmented second: B-Cx  or Bb-C#
A diminished second:  B-Cb or Bb-Cbb  - even though on the piano that sounds like a unison

Of course the last of these is not commonly found, but the inversion of a second - a seventh - is useful:

Major seventh: C-B
Minor seventh: C-Bb
Diminished seventh: C#-Bb   - which is very common

Fourths, fifths, and octaves can be perfect.
Seconds, thirds, sixths, and sevenths can be major or minor.
All intervals can have augmented or diminished forms.

Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Haffner on July 25, 2007, 05:23:38 AM
I start out alot of my guitar students with the "Complete Idiot's Guide To Music Theory", and I would reccomend that tome way before the topic website. The "Idiot..." in the title can help a student to get over his or her pride (the great obstacle toward any learning experiene, imho) and the book also comes with a free ear training cd:


http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Music-Theory/dp/1592574378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-0006250-4338817?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185369762&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Music-Theory/dp/1592574378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-0006250-4338817?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185369762&sr=1-1)

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Mozart on July 25, 2007, 05:37:18 AM
Quote from: Haffner on July 25, 2007, 05:23:38 AM
I start out alot of my guitar students with the "Complete Idiot's Guide To Music Theory", and I would reccomend that tome way before the topic website. The "Idiot..." in the title can help a student to get over his or her pride (the great obstacle toward any learning experiene, imho) and the book also comes with a free ear training cd:


http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Music-Theory/dp/1592574378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-0006250-4338817?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185369762&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Music-Theory/dp/1592574378/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-0006250-4338817?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185369762&sr=1-1)

Hope this helps!

Looks like a cool boke, I'll try to find it next time im at borders Thx.

Quote
Think in terms of the whole and half steps, as well as the spelling. A second, no matter how it "sounds" on the piano, must be spelled as two adjacent notes on the staff.

I dont know why this gives me so much trouble. On the little test I can do 4 or 5 correct in a row and then just miss one and get a huge headache. Can you explain what augmented and diminished mean?
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 25, 2007, 06:36:32 AM
Quote from: Mozart on July 25, 2007, 05:37:18 AM
Can you explain what augmented and diminished mean?

"Augmented" increases the interval beyond either the perfect or the major condition. "Diminished" decreases the interval beyond either the perfect or the minor condition.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 01:00:33 PM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on July 25, 2007, 06:36:32 AM
"Augmented" increases the interval beyond either the perfect or the major condition. "Diminished" decreases the interval beyond either the perfect or the minor condition.
Quick: someone tell me another name for a diminished second! >:D
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 25, 2007, 02:09:02 PM
Quote from: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 01:00:33 PM
Quick: someone tell me another name for a diminished second! >:D

A second, diminished!  ;D

Seriously, it's the sort of thing that exists more in theory than practice, and most any composer would write a doubled unison. As, at the other extreme, an augmented seventh is less likely to occur than a perfect octave.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 09:39:35 PM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on July 25, 2007, 02:09:02 PM
A second, diminished!  ;D

Seriously, it's the sort of thing that exists more in theory than practice...
...except in harp music. ;D

(If you're confused at this point, don't worry about it.  For technical reasons, harp music doesn't always follow the rules taught in Music Theory 101. :o)
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 26, 2007, 04:02:18 AM
Quote from: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 09:39:35 PM
...except in harp music. ;D

(If you're confused at this point, don't worry about it.  For technical reasons, harp music doesn't always follow the rules taught in Music Theory 101. :o)

Aha, of course. Harp homophones. A harp could very well play Cb and B on two adjacent strings for greater volume and body, or would tune to those pitches to facilitate playing repeated notes. And given a choice, the reason a harpist would prefer to play Cb rather than B is . . .
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 26, 2007, 04:04:52 AM
because C flat is more resonant than B on the harp, Larry!

This indeed is true with all flat notes compared to their enharmonic equivalents. Which is why most pieces in very sharp keys give their harp parts in those enharmonic equivalents. The beginning of the Lutoslawski Concerto for Orchestra has the repeated pedal  F# in the timps doubled by the harps alternating F# and G flat, IIRC. At first this seems merely an unecessary piece of subtlety, but I suppose this is so that that each string has longer to resonate before being damped in the process of being re-plucked.

Quote from: jochanaan on July 25, 2007, 09:39:35 PM
...except in harp music. ;D


...and in Satie, who is fond of his little enharmonic jokes! Also puts me in mind of a 'bitonal' piece by Slonimsky - inimitably titled Dummkopfmarsch in His/Deses Dur - with the right hand in B sharp major and the left in D double flat major. A pain to read, even after one realises that both hands are thus in C.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 26, 2007, 04:10:17 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 26, 2007, 04:04:52 AM
because C flat is more resonant than B on the harp, Larry!

and that's because in the flat positions, the strings are open, and at their greatest length.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: lukeottevanger on July 26, 2007, 04:11:18 AM
Correct. That's one I remember from my youthful reading of Piston, I think it was!
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on July 26, 2007, 04:25:09 AM
Quote from: lukeottevanger on July 26, 2007, 04:11:18 AM
Correct. That's one I remember from my youthful reading of Piston, I think it was!

Old Walter does cover those very points, yes!
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: karlhenning on July 26, 2007, 04:27:53 AM
Ah, the Maine natives one reads in one's musical youth!
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: oyasumi on July 27, 2007, 08:39:28 AM
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on July 26, 2007, 04:02:18 AM
Aha, of course. Harp homophones. A harp could very well play Cb and B on two adjacent strings for greater volume and body, or would tune to those pitches to facilitate playing repeated notes. And given a choice, the reason a harpist would prefer to play Cb rather than B is . . .

microtones
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: LaciDeeLeBlanc on July 29, 2007, 05:47:43 PM
Quote from: MozartMobster on July 24, 2007, 11:23:42 PM
major second ascending its on b so 1 note up is c right? Why c sharp? I really don't get it.

Not exactly. It's asking you for a major second right? Think of the B major scale, the note after B is C# , then from B to C# is a major second. You can't really rely on the position of the piano keys. The key signature and the starting note is what will help you.
Title: Re: Music Theory
Post by: Larry Rinkel on August 01, 2007, 05:09:48 AM
Quote from: LaciDeeLeBlanc on July 29, 2007, 05:47:43 PM
Not exactly. It's asking you for a major second right? Think of the B major scale, the note after B is C# , then from B to C# is a major second. You can't really rely on the position of the piano keys. The key signature and the starting note is what will help you.

Yes, but intervals can be determined without reference to a tonal center. What he has to understand are the half- and whole-steps, and the spelling.