This morning I started reading Stanley Crouch's book about Charlie Parker:
[asin]0062005618[/asin]
So far, so good. I know Crouch has some controversial views about basically every subject, including jazz (e.g. his dismissal of fusion and late Miles).
I also recently read and enjoyed Geoff Dyer's rather free-with-the-facts series of essays, But Beautiful.
[asin]0312429479[/asin]
Like Dyer says in his intro, it "feels" true even when it isn't.
What are some of your favorite books about jazz?
I was just about to start such a topic. I am looking for a good, relatively short, single volume history of jazz. I have a bad track record with "History of..." types of books, including Grout (looking for substitute for that one too). I usually get bored and sidetracked into reading another book on my vast unread pile about halfway through. I watched the Ken Burns series, but was very underwhelmed by that and have little interest in the book.
Any suggestions?
Edit: It looks as if But Beautiful might fit the bill?
Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on September 17, 2015, 12:04:55 PM
Edit: It looks as if But Beautiful might fit the bill?
Sort of, but the book is very impressionistic. It does capture much of the history of jazz, but it does so through short story-essays about 7-8 major figures (Lester Young, Charles Mingus, Duke Ellington, Chet Baker, etc.). And when I say story-essays, I mean a blend of truth and fiction, but the fiction is meant to impart a sense of each musician's personality.
So
But Beautiful is more like a historical commentary than a true history. It is very short, which is nice, and it's spectacularly written.
This is pretty good
[asin]0688087205[/asin]
Miles by Miles Davis and Beneath the Underdog by Charles Mingus are two great autobiographies.
Ashley Kahn's books about "Kind of Blue", "A Love Supreme" and the Impulse! label are great if you want to get deeper with those albums and the label history.
Freedom Is, Freedom Ain't: Jazz and the Making of the Sixties by Scott Saul is good too.
[asin]B00EV064U0[/asin]
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lately, I found this one excellent:
[asin]0520217292[/asin]
(and based on it, would try his "History of Jazz" over Dyer, for whom I've not much use it seems)
also, this one was pretty nice, if not containing much that was unexpected:
[asin]0195085566[/asin]
then, I'm halfway through this and it's excellent:
[asin]1481082973[/asin]
also right now reading this, and it's most thought-provoking indeed:
[asin]047205242X[/asin]
then, the book that definitely moved me most in quite some time - not about jazz, but I think of plenty of relevance still:
[asin]0812993543[/asin]
Kelley's book on Monk sets the standard, I guess. I've read some chapters in it and found it excellent. Guess Peter Pullman's book on Bud Powell is even more thorough, but I hate reading on the smartphone and am proceeding very slowly (international shipping asked is ridiculous, no way I'll pay 50$ for a paperback).
for the German-reading crowd, I warmly recommend this one:
[asin]3905800713[/asin]
Also, if you want to dig deeper into Bebop, Ira Gitler's two books (Masters and Swing to Bop) are excellent.
And then there's Charles Mingus' great "Beneath the Underdog" ...
Great suggestions, thanks.
BTW, I'm currently writing a book called Stolon Moments about sod-forming grasses.
Forgot to mention Herbie Hancock's autobiography that I read recently called "Possibilities". It is pretty good.
If you like Haruki Murakami, he has a short book called "Jazz portraits", where he talks about different jazz recordings and his personal relationship to them. It's good.
following up on Caylor (which was just published for the first time) who did his interviews in 1964/65 as an outsider and a person with large interests in all things arts, culture etc. (he is an architect by profession and did the interviews besides that) - there's also this here, with some great interviews done by Art Taylor (the drummer):
[asin]030680526X[/asin]
I've not read more than a few yet, but it promises to be full of insight and very entertaining too (be aware that you'll get some racialist (and yes, racist) views - if you want to know more about the why and how, I guess Amiri Baraka and the essay by Ta-Nehisi Coates will help, though I'm just about to finally dig deeper into Baraka and read his two books, "Blue People" and "Black Music").
I've been reading Bix:The Definitive Biography of a Jazz Legend by Jean Pierre Lion. The book is a treasure of a resource and doesn't hold back anything. Unfortunately it's expensive to get but worth every penny I paid.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/314oNmTMX7L._SX411_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2015, 06:54:58 PM
This morning I started reading Stanley Crouch's book about Charlie Parker:
[asin]0062005618[/asin]
So far, so good. I know Crouch has some controversial views about basically every subject, including jazz (e.g. his dismissal of fusion and late Miles).
What are some of your favorite books about jazz?
That book looks intriguing, thanks for the heads up!
Quote from: king ubu on September 19, 2015, 01:36:47 PM
lately, I found this one excellent:
[asin]0520217292[/asin]
(and based on it, would try his "History of Jazz" over Dyer, for whom I've not much use it seems)
also, this one was pretty nice, if not containing much that was unexpected:
[asin]0195085566[/asin]
then, I'm halfway through this and it's excellent:
[asin]1481082973[/asin]
also right now reading this, and it's most thought-provoking indeed:
[asin]047205242X[/asin]
then, the book that definitely moved me most in quite some time - not about jazz, but I think of plenty of relevance still:
[asin]0812993543[/asin]
Kelley's book on Monk sets the standard, I guess. I've read some chapters in it and found it excellent. Guess Peter Pullman's book on Bud Powell is even more thorough, but I hate reading on the smartphone and am proceeding very slowly (international shipping asked is ridiculous, no way I'll pay 50$ for a paperback).
for the German-reading crowd, I warmly recommend this one:
[asin]3905800713[/asin]
Also, if you want to dig deeper into Bebop, Ira Gitler's two books (Masters and Swing to Bop) are excellent.
And then there's Charles Mingus' great "Beneath the Underdog" ...
Wow! I'm wish-listing these right now!
My small Jazz library - the majority of my literature on the subject is in magazines - Downbeat, Jazz, Record Review, etc., etc. And let us never forget the excellent album note sleeves by Blue Note, Prestige, Muse, Columbia, etc., back in the day.
(http://s14.postimg.org/5xfst0ntc/Jazz.jpg)
The book on the far right is the "Blue Note Book" published only in Japan - a discography of every album issued. Basically, the covers, personnel, tracks - little annotation. At the time, it was a book "to have." Now, not so much.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/anita%20oday001_zpssb1jtj1v.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/Alan_/anita%20oday002_zpsq10togig.jpg)
I don't think I count as a jazz enthusiast, because the range of what I can appreciate is hopelessly narrow. But I do have a jazz book that I treasure - partly because it makes for a compelling read; partly because Anita O'Day's singing swings like no one else's, and her arrangements make almost every song exciting in some way; and also because my copy of her book is a bit special (see second picture).
^ The book on O'Day is indeed very interesting. She is one of the very few Jazz vocalists I listen to (her incredible performance in Jazz on a Summer's Day) and her Sixties work on Vanguard. Beautiful woman in her time - so sad she got mixed up with chemicahol abuses.
Karl listed "Jazz" above. I have it but haven't read it yet. However, I've read a fair amount of Giddins other stuff, and he is a wonderful writer, speaking from a purely journalistic, putting-words-together artfully point of view, and he also seems to have a lot of integrity as a cultural historian.
His Visions of Jazz won a mess of awards, and deservedly. He really takes you to school when he writes. His Bing Crosby bio was a real eye opener.
No brainers on these two, Brian:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41pW5C70M%2BL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg) (http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1178683759l/821948.jpg)
Also this one, which I've found invaluable - a tour through and assessment of the entire Davis discography:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514KPYW0T-L._SX358_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Which reminds me: this is an excellent introduction to the overwhelming Ellington discography:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v9rD1-9XL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Both books provide a biographical overview as they progress, but largely only insofar as it serves the purpose of discussing the records or the sessions or the live work. So there's considerably less of the more usual gossip and apocraphal anecdotes than in others - but that's the way I prefer it.
This new book may be of interest.
(http://tmm.chicagodistributioncenter.com/IsbnImages/9780226180762.jpg)
(https://d188rgcu4zozwl.cloudfront.net/content/B00WBHSDBS/resources/408870052)
I'm currently reading this bio of Lester Young. It's a really good weekend read with plenty of room for thought and pondering for such a musician.
ekkehard jost: Free Jazz 1974
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41b2GmOprRL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Ten chapters, near enough one per artist, this book concentrates on the music rather than biography, and was useful when I started to get into jazz of this period.
Mervyn Cooke: Jazz 1998
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ovJlTl-PL._SX354_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
This was useful for covering the styles of jazz from its origins to modern day (well 20 years ago!) and is a good start point for begininng to understand the various eras and key artists.
Can anyone recommend any books on jazz rock / fusion?
Thanks. :)
not general, but I found this one pretty much okay:
[asin]0823083462[/asin]
there's this fairly new one that I plan to get - it puts (early) jazz rock in a broader context - Braxton, MEV, Circle etc:
[asin]022618076X[/asin]
Quote from: Brian on September 16, 2015, 06:54:58 PM
This morning I started reading Stanley Crouch's book about Charlie Parker
A very good and well researched book. Crouch details Parker's early life better than any other Parker biographer. I eagerly await the next volume since this one ends in tantalizing manner at the outset of his greatness.
Quote from: sanantonio on November 08, 2016, 02:23:19 AM
A very good and well researched book. Crouch details Parker's early life better than any other Parker biographer. I eagerly await the next volume since this one ends in tantalizing manner at the outset of his greatness.
Reminds me of the first volume of David Nice's bio of
Prokofiev! (Or, maybe not.) 8)
These are not books about Jazz, but fine novels featuring Jazz musicians. "Tracker" by Julio Cortazar and "Steppenwolf" by Hermann Hesse.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41THaTyJ8cL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
This book has quite neglected by jazz fans but I found it quite thought-provoking and I have quite a large jazz book library.
^how was jazz "murdered"?
Maybe I missed it, but it looks like nobody mentioned this one. Pretty gripping stuff.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H3Q%2BupYzL._SX324_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
All of these are probably OOP since I acquired them in the '70s, but the first 3 in particular are very good.
Bird Lives! by Ross Russell
Inside Jazz by Graham Collier
As Serious as your Life by Valerie Wilmer
From Satchmo to Miles by Leonard Feather
The Jazz Book by Joachim Berendt
This new one looks interesting:
https://slate.com/culture/2018/09/playing-changes-nate-chinen-review.html
(https://compote.slate.com/images/06631063-09f9-4645-bbac-1f6ed20e6537.jpeg?width=380&height=570&rect=600x900&offset=0x0)
I read this, I liked it very much, I love such materials ;) I studied music until the 4th year of university, in total, this is about 7 years, I also played the guitar, practiced drums, and now I maintain my skills at the level of a hobby. Now I like to write essays, try this out (https://papersowl.com/examples/media-violence/) read my works on the actual problem of Media Violence. I think this is a great opportunity to help people, earn and develop. Good luck and good tracks to everyone!
The famous British poet Philip Larkin, who said "I can live a week without poetry but not a day without jazz", is the author of All What Jazz. One of the most memorable books on jazz I have read not because of the subject matter as Larkin's taste in the genre is the polar opposite of my own. His enthusiasm, and not least his prose, make for a wonderful read.
Looking up more info on that book, I am amused to see Larkin occasionally employed the pen name "Brunette Coleman" ;D
Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2020, 05:20:20 AM
Looking up more info on that book, I am amused to see Larkin occasionally employed the pen name "Brunette Coleman" ;D
;D
Picked this up the other day and am looking forward to starting it:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tTfLOrpSL._SX340_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Has anyone here read it or know of the book?
Considering a project of working chronologivally through the Mingus discography while reading this near oral history I found recently:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/416MGX2AY4L._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: SimonNZ on November 27, 2021, 02:57:24 PM
Considering a project of working chronologivally through the Mingus discography while reading this near oral history I found recently:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/416MGX2AY4L._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
The book does look tasty!
Beneath the Underdog is another good, wild book to accompany your Mingus research. Do post about your chronological discoveries.
These are relatively new, I believe. Haven't read them myself, but I'm curious.
(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1607176441l/52937182.jpg)(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1627397196l/58644453._SY475_.jpg)
Quote from: Artem on December 20, 2021, 11:37:00 AM
These are relatively new, I believe. Haven't read them myself, but I'm curious.
(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1607176441l/52937182.jpg)(https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1627397196l/58644453._SY475_.jpg)
Those look interesting. Will research the volume on Parker (I have more recordings with him then with Tchicai).
Currently reading this thin book (Karl Berger lives fairly near me, so I wanted to support him), not sure if it's strictly jazz. Might be too new-agey/"spiritual" for some:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bsOwunQDL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
This is on order. Isoardi's
The Dark Tree about Tapscott was great, so I have high expectations.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41jpdc3QO4L._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Just a thought. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like there's not as much good literature about jazz as compared with the field of Classical music. Is it because that jazz is new? Somebody should really write "The Rest is Noise" kind of book about jazz.
Yippee! The William Parker book Universal Tonality is available through my interlibrary loan system. I put a hold on it. Currently checked out, but I should get it within 3 weeks. :)
Quote from: Artem on December 20, 2021, 11:58:00 AM
Just a thought. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like there's not as much good literature about jazz as compared with the field of Classical music. Is it because that jazz is new? Somebody should really write "The Rest is Noise" kind of book about jazz.
Nate Chinen's
Playing Changes?
OK, I haven't read it (nor the Alex Ross book), but they seem somewhat similar.
Jazz literature is kind of a weird field. Many excellent specialized books and biographies, but general/overview books always seem to catch a lot of flak. Maybe because so many jazz fans are cantankerous boomer (or even more, uh...mature) old farts. Another weird thing: some of the attractive specialized books, e.g. Ian McDonald's biography of Tadd Dameron, were published in super-limited quantities. (I tried to find that for years, eventually settled for Paul Combs's
Dameronia...turned out Tadd was so enigmatic that little concrete can really be said.)
Sooner or later I'll read Ted Gioia's
How to Listen to Jazz...Reviews a bit mixed, but I liked his
West Coast Jazz.
Can't comment on his History of Jazz Just realized I read Gioia's
History of Jazz some 15 years ago; I guess it didn't impress. ;) Most of the jazz books I read are biographies.
Quote from: SimonNZ on October 24, 2021, 01:44:45 PM
Picked this up the other day and am looking forward to starting it:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tTfLOrpSL._SX340_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Has anyone here read it or know of the book?
I have it and have read it, twice. It is a good book based on documentary evidence of Bolden's life: primary records. It is also frustrating because we don't have anything of his music, no recorded examples of his playing. But this book is the best we can have of getting an idea of who he was.
Quote from: San Antone on March 09, 2022, 04:47:29 PM
I have it and have read it, twice. It is a good book based on documentary evidence of Bolden's life: primary records. It is also frustrating because we don't have anything of his music, no recorded examples of his playing. But this book is the best we can have of getting an idea of who he was.
Thanks for that. I'll now have to find it in whatever pile of more recent purchases its been buried under.
I think the best books about Jazz are the autobiographies, collections of interviews, and some surveys like Jazzmen, Gunther Schuller's books on Early Jazz and Swing Era (although these are bit academic and dry but chock full of information).
To Be or Not to Bop - Dizzy Gillespie
Good Morning Blues - Count Basie
Music is My Mistress - Duke Ellington
Music on My Mind - Willie the Lion Smith
Swing That Music - Louis Armstrong
The Jazz Tradition - Martin Williams
Quote from: Artem on December 20, 2021, 11:58:00 AM
Just a thought. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like there's not as much good literature about jazz as compared with the field of Classical music. Is it because that jazz is new? Somebody should really write "The Rest is Noise" kind of book about jazz.
Some nice books.
When I first got into jazz, this book was an important one for me:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41mXp-b222L._SX330_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Jazz: A History of America's Music
by Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bjcqqruBL._SX426_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
The companion book for the 10 part documentary about Jazz by Ken Burns, it is a valuable text - and IMO the single best history of Jazz. I am re-watching the film and going through the book along with watching. While the film offers a wealth of information and history, the book offers much more.
Quote from: San Antone on March 11, 2022, 03:48:03 PM
Jazz: A History of America's Music
by Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51bjcqqruBL._SX426_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
The companion book for the 10 part documentary about Jazz by Ken Burns, it is a valuable text - and IMO the single best history of Jazz. I am re-watching the film and going through the book along with watching. While the film offers a wealth of information and history, the book offers much more.
The main problem I have with the Ken Burns'
Jazz documentary is how there were limited perspectives brought into the film by those of Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch. My biggest beef is there were several shots made at giants like Ornette Coleman and the whole free jazz scene, which was completely unnecessary --- not to mention the dismissal of anything Miles did post-
Kind of Blue. I like
some free jazz, but I'm not going to degrade the innovators of the style in order to elevate my own point-of-view. I hate metal, but I wouldn't make a comment on it on a documentary that's dedicated to the genre. Also, I seem to recall very little mention of Bill Evans in
Jazz, which was a slap in the face to all of those piano trios out there who obviously owe this man a huge debt.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 11, 2022, 07:08:16 PM
The main problem I have with the Ken Burns' Jazz documentary is how there were limited perspectives brought into the film by those of Wynton Marsalis and Stanley Crouch. My biggest beef is there were several shots made at giants like Ornette Coleman and the whole free jazz scene, which was completely unnecessary --- not to mention the dismissal of anything Miles did post-Kind of Blue. I like some free jazz, but I'm not going to degrade the innovators of the style in order to elevate my own point-of-view. I hate metal, but I wouldn't make a comment on it on a documentary that's dedicated to the genre. Also, I seem to recall very little mention of Bill Evans in Jazz, which was a slap in the face to all of those piano trios out there who obviously owe this man a huge debt.
I think the film, and especially the book, struck the right balance and focus on the truly important figures and styles/periods. Personally, I agree with the perspective of Marsalis in centering the history on the contributions and accomplishments of Armstrong, Ellington, Parker, Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, and Miles Davis. Ornette Coleman is treated respectfully, IMO, and given his due and accorded his place in the overall history.
IIRC Bill Evans is mentioned vis a vis
Kind of Blue, and with a nod to his style and legacy. A lot of time is given to Bix Beiderbecke, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, and even John Hammond - so one cannot make a convincingly case that the film/book ignored the contributions of white musicians/personalities.
But as far as "free Jazz'" is concerned (as well as fusion Jazz), IMO it was an unfortunate detour which I don't think deserves much attention. The positives brought out in the film regarding Ornette Coleman is that he retained the primary ingredients of Jazz: Blues and swing, and was comfortably in the tradition. When those elements are removed from the equation you might have very good improvised music - but not Jazz.
This history, both the film and book, is told by a variety of musicians and authors and is nuanced, balanced, as well as, accurate.
They should have had a stated cutoff date of 1965-ish for the documentary which is really where they give up, offering only the last half of the last episode for a confusingly selective list of shout-outs to complete the story.
And no mention of the ECM label or any of their artists - who I would have thought were carrying the torch in the later 20th century.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 12, 2022, 01:09:23 PM
They should have had a stated cutoff date of 1965-ish for the documentary which is really where they give up, offering only the last half of the last episode for a confusingly selective list of shout-outs to complete the story.
And no mention of the ECM label or any of their artists - who I would have thought were carrying the torch in the later 20th century.
I saw an interview with Ken Burns and he responded to this issue.
He said as a historian his subject must be limited to the past, and long enough ago to have a period close so as to be able know what happened and who were the important personalities. Since the period since the 1970s (the film was made in the 1990s) was too recent and still developing to make any definitive conclusions; it is too early to know who or what styles will be the most important.
So the last part is more of survey of what is happening since the 1970s to the then present.
I can't really agree. I've seen it three times now and each time it feels in that last segment that they are obliged to follow Wynton's very outspoken and unbending verdicts about what is and is not Jazz, and that ECM artists are in his estimation Not Jazz. And by 2001 when it was screened, or whenever the project was started, it should have been clear that many were, are and will continue to be important.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 12, 2022, 03:29:14 PM
I can't really agree. I've seen it three times now and each time it feels in that last segment that they are obliged to follow Wynton's very outspoken and unbending verdicts about what is and is not Jazz, and that ECM artists are in his estimation Not Jazz. And by 2001 when it was screened, or whenever the project was started, it should have been clear that many were, are and will continue to be important.
Why are you upset that Marsalis does not consider some of ECM Jazz?
It is clear throughout the film that Marsalis defines Jazz are music made up of three components: improvisation, swing, and music steeped in the Blues. Since much of the ECM catalog only shares one element, improvisation, it is no surprise that Marsalis does not include it in the Jazz tradition.
He does say that improvised music that isn't Jazz can be and is very good music, just not Jazz.
I happen to agree, and listen to ECM recordings a lot.
Labels are useful for a couple of reasons: 1) cataloging collections and 2) defining a tradition. But ultimately they have nothing to do with quality.
Quote from: San Antone on March 11, 2022, 09:00:59 PM
I think the film, and especially the book, struck the right balance and focus on the truly important figures and styles/periods. Personally, I agree with the perspective of Marsalis in centering the history on the contributions and accomplishments of Armstrong, Ellington, Parker, Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, and Miles Davis. Ornette Coleman is treated respectfully, IMO, and given his due and accorded his place in the overall history.
IIRC Bill Evans is mentioned vis a vis Kind of Blue, and with a nod to his style and legacy. A lot of time is given to Bix Beiderbecke, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, and even John Hammond - so one cannot make a convincingly case that the film/book ignored the contributions of white musicians/personalities.
But as far as "free Jazz'" is concerned (as well as fusion Jazz), IMO it was an unfortunate detour which I don't think deserves much attention. The positives brought out in the film regarding Ornette Coleman is that he retained the primary ingredients of Jazz: Blues and swing, and was comfortably in the tradition. When those elements are removed from the equation you might have very good improvised music - but not Jazz.
This history, both the film and book, is told by a variety of musicians and authors and is nuanced, balanced, as well as, accurate.
To the bolded text, I disagree. I didn't hear any variety in the opinions expressed. All I heard was the Marsalis/Crouch clan speak of their own personal biases. A mere nod to Bill Evans doesn't actually give accord to his accomplishments. I don't recall Dave Brubeck being mentioned or talked about to any great length and, again, this shows yet another oversight to this deeply flawed documentary series. In fact, I don't think the whole West Coast scene got much attention in general. And we won't even talk about the oversight of the European jazz musicians. Anyway, this series may be important
to you, but to me it hardly measures up to anything of remote substance. I agree with what Claude Debussy said about the tradition in music "I love music passionately. And because I love it, I try to free it from barren traditions that stifle it." The same ideology applies to jazz. This music isn't for the museum as depicted in the Ken Burns' series. It's a living, breathing musical organism that will never find its' footing, because of its inherent adaptability to change with the times. This is something that the Marsalis/Burns clan have continued to fail to acknowledge.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 06:14:56 AM
To the bolded text, I disagree. I didn't hear any variety in the opinions expressed. All I heard was the Marsalis/Crouch clan speak of their own personal biases. A mere nod to Bill Evans doesn't actually give accord to his accomplishments. I don't recall Dave Brubeck being mentioned or talked about to any great length and, again, this shows yet another oversight to this deeply flawed documentary series. In fact, I don't think the whole West Coast scene got much attention in general. And we won't even talk about the oversight of the European jazz musicians. Anyway, this series may be important to you, but to me it hardly measures up to anything of remote substance. I agree with what Claude Debussy said about the tradition in music "I love music passionately. And because I love it, I try to free it from barren traditions that stifle it." The same ideology applies to jazz. This music isn't for the museum as depicted in the Ken Burns series. It's a living, breathing musical organism that will never find its' footing, because of its inherent adaptability to change with the times. This is something that the Marsalis/Burns clan have continued to fail to acknowledge.
[Emphasis added.] Recall that Bill Evans was known for rarely playing blues tunes. :laugh: 🤣
Multiple 👍 to the museum statement.
Disclosure: I've no time for Wynton and his pretentious preaching, nor interest in his music. Apparently he feels that hard bop is where it's at; well, I also like hard bop and there are countless exponents thereof who I prefer to listen to.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 12, 2022, 01:09:23 PM
They should have had a stated cutoff date of 1965-ish for the documentary which is really where they give up, offering only the last half of the last episode for a confusingly selective list of shout-outs to complete the story.
And no mention of the ECM label or any of their artists - who I would have thought were carrying the torch in the later 20th century.
Indeed. Burns shouldn't have even bothered after the bebop era. The series should've been retitled to
Jazz: According To Wynton Marsalis. This seems much more appropriate. I'm not a Marsalis "hater" by any stretch, but I do believe the series focuses too heavily on his opinion and those of Stanley Crouch as well.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 06:14:56 AM
To the bolded text, I disagree. I didn't hear any variety in the opinions expressed. All I heard was the Marsalis/Crouch clan speak of their own personal biases. A mere nod to Bill Evans doesn't actually give accord to his accomplishments. I don't recall Dave Brubeck being mentioned or talked about to any great length and, again, this shows yet another oversight to this deeply flawed documentary series. In fact, I don't think the whole West Coast scene got much attention in general. And we won't even talk about the oversight of the European jazz musicians. Anyway, this series may be important to you, but to me it hardly measures up to anything of remote substance. I agree with what Claude Debussy said about the tradition in music "I love music passionately. And because I love it, I try to free it from barren traditions that stifle it." The same ideology applies to jazz. This music isn't for the museum as depicted in the Ken Burns' series. It's a living, breathing musical organism that will never find its' footing, because of its inherent adaptability to change with the times. This is something that the Marsalis/Burns clan have continued to fail to acknowledge.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but the Jazz tradition is over 100 years old and you are complaining about the treatment of (at the time the film was made) about the most recent 20 years. You also seem to want more coverage of white musicians, but the film covered the early white groups Original Dixieland Jazz Orchestra, New Orleans Rhythm Kings, and as I said earlier Bix Beiderbecke, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, and many of the white big bands. Jazz accepts any musician no matter what is their race. The only requirement is that they "can play," i.e. swing, have an individual sound, and can play the Blues. (Btw, the book has more coverage of all of what you complain about, an entire chapter on white musicians, and more about West Coast jazz.)
The film was meant to tell the story of Jazz, the main personalities and styles - not to be a comprehensive exhaustive account of every musician or regional sound that has ever been.
We essentially disagree about what the Jazz tradition encompasses and in fact even means. Jazz is not simply any improvised music. Bach improvised, Beethoven improvised, Indian Classical musicians improvise, Bluegrass musicians improvise, and yes European musicians on ECM improvise - but without the stylistic specifics
along with improvisation - swing and Blues - the music is not part of the Jazz tradition.
I have a lot of respect for what Wynton Marsalis has devoted his career to doing: keeping the Jazz tradition alive in his playing as well as teaching future generations of young musicians about Jazz. As part of his position as Director of Jazz at Lincoln Center he has created at least 20 educational programs, an entire academy of Jazz. Much of his time is spent teaching, something you never see unless you go looking for it.
And since he matured as a performer and composer his bands have included some of the best musicians who became leaders of their own bands creating contemporary Jazz in the tradition.
Those styles of European improvising musicians offer some fantastic music. But it just isn't within the Jazz tradition - and there's nothing wrong with that. After all "Jazz" is a label two of the most important artists rejected, both Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong preferred to say they played "my/our music" and distanced themselves from the term Jazz.
The
Jazz tradition is important not the label. But since we use labels as shorthand, they need to have specificity or they become meaningless.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 06:43:23 AM
Of course you are entitled to your opinion but the Jazz tradition is over 100 years old and you are complaining about the treatment of (at the time the film was made) about the most recent 20 years. You also seem to want more coverage of white musicians, but the film covered the early white groups Original Dixieland Jazz Orchestra, New Orleans Rhythm Kings, and as I said earlier Bix Beiderbecke, Benny Goodman, Artie Shaw, and many of the white big bands. Jazz accepts any musician no matter what is their race. The only requirement is that they "can play," i.e. swing, have an individual sound, and can play the Blues. (Btw, the book has more coverage of all of what you complain about, an entire chapter on white musicians, and more about West Coast jazz.)
The film was meant to tell the story of Jazz, the main personalities and styles - not to be a comprehensive exhaustive account of every musician or regional sound that has ever been.
We essentially disagree about what the Jazz tradition encompasses and in fact even means. Jazz is not simply any improvised music. Bach improvised, Beethoven improvised, Indian Classical musicians improvise, Bluegrass musicians improvise, and yes European musicians on ECM improvise - but without the stylistic specifics along with improvisation - swing and Blues - the music is not part of the Jazz tradition.
I have a lot of respect for what Wynton Marsalis has devoted his career to doing: keeping the Jazz tradition alive in his playing as well as teaching future generations of young musicians about Jazz. As part of his position as Director of Jazz at Lincoln Center he has created at least 20 educational programs, an entire academy of Jazz. Much of his time is spent teaching, something you never see unless you go looking for it.
And since he matured as a performer and composer his bands have included some of the best musicians who became leaders of their own bands creating contemporary Jazz in the tradition.
Those styles of European improvising musicians offer some fantastic music. But it just isn't within the Jazz tradition - and there's nothing wrong with that. After all "Jazz" is a label two of the most important artists rejected, both Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong preferred to say they played "my/our music" and distanced themselves from the term Jazz.
The Jazz tradition is important not the label. But since we use labels as shorthand, they need to have specificity or they become meaningless.
But you are allowing tradition to dictate how you ultimately feel about the genre's history instead of acknowledging that the very essence of jazz
is change.
As for Marsalis, I don't really give a flying f*** what he's done or has achieved. To me, he's nothing more than a museum showpiece and has, in essence, become a parody of jazz instead of what the genre actually represents.
Anyway, we'll agree to disagree and just leave it there.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 06:55:34 AM
But you are allowing tradition to dictate how you ultimately feel about the genre's history instead of acknowledging that the very essence of jazz is change.
As for Marsalis, I don't really give a flying f*** what he's done or has achieved. To me, he's nothing more than a museum showpiece and has, in essence, become a parody of jazz instead of what the genre actually represents.
Anyway, we'll agree to disagree and just leave it there.
You are trying to have your taste dictate the definition of Jazz. And Jazz is not about change as much as individual sound, Blues, and swing. You are wrong about Marsalis, but it doesn't matter, IMO, he long ago won the argument, for which I am very grateful.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 12, 2022, 03:29:14 PM
I can't really agree. I've seen it three times now and each time it feels in that last segment that they are obliged to follow Wynton's very outspoken and unbending verdicts about what is and is not Jazz, and that ECM artists are in his estimation Not Jazz. And by 2001 when it was screened, or whenever the project was started, it should have been clear that many were, are and will continue to be important.
It's important to remember that jazz is only jazz when Marsalis says it is, but if you disagree, then
you're the one who is wrong. Oh well, I'll continue to listen to my Kenny Wheeler or Tomasz Stańko albums and enjoy them for bringing a newfound elegance to the genre.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 07:46:16 AM
It's important to remember that jazz is only jazz when Marsalis says it is, but if you disagree, then you're the one who is wrong. Oh well, I'll continue to listen to my Kenny Wheeler or Tomasz Stańko albums and enjoy them for bringing a newfound elegance to the genre.
Kenny Wheeler and Tomasz Stanko created some fantastic music, and I enjoy it too. It doesn't become any better by calling it Jazz and it isn't hurt by saying it isn't Jazz (although some of what Kenny Wheeler has done does fall within the Jazz tradition). Just like when Clarence Clemons plays solo in a Bruce Springsteen song it is not Jazz, although it is also very good music.
ECM is a label that includes a lot of music, even Classical music. Some of it is Jazz, like Keith Jarrett's Standards Quartet, or Mal Waldron's recordings. But much of it is a different style other than Jazz.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 08:20:10 AM
Kenny Wheeler and Tomasz Stanko created some fantastic music, and I enjoy it too. It doesn't become any better by calling it Jazz and it isn't hurt by saying it isn't Jazz (although some of what Kenny Wheeler has done does fall within the Jazz tradition). Just like when Clarence Clemons plays solo in a Bruce Springsteen song it is not Jazz, although it is also very good music.
ECM is a label that includes a lot of music, even Classical music. Some of it is Jazz, like Keith Jarrett's Standards Quartet, or Mal Waldron's recordings. But much of it is a different style other than Jazz.
For me, jazz is more of a process than something that can fit comfortably into a box.
To be fair to Marsalis: his own discography is far more interesting and varied than his own straightjacketing pronouncements would suggest.
Quote from: SimonNZ on March 13, 2022, 12:56:53 PM
To be fair to Marsalis: his own discography is far more interesting and varied than his own straightjacketing pronouncements would suggest.
Oh, he's done excellent work. As I said, I'm not a Marsalis hater, I just wish Burns'
Jazz didn't feature him so heavily.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 12:08:33 PM
For me, jazz is more of a process than something that can fit comfortably into a box.
Jazz is a style of playing. Any song can be played in a Jazz style, and the specific aspects of the style is what makes it sound like Jazz.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 03:17:31 PM
Jazz is a style of playing. Any song can be played in a Jazz style, and the specific aspects of the style is what makes it sound like Jazz.
I guess you have a difficult time reading what I wrote, so I'll repeat it again:
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 12:08:33 PM
For me, jazz is more of a process than something that can fit comfortably into a box.
Take note of the bolded text.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 13, 2022, 07:37:41 PM
I guess you have a difficult time reading what I wrote, so I'll repeat it again:
Take note of the bolded text.
I don't have difficulty reading what you wrote; I just don't think it is as important as recognizing the history of Jazz and what the major artists did. If you wish to live in a solipsistic world where you create your own echo chamber and ignore the objective reality, that is your choice. It is not something I care to indulge.
Quote from: San Antone on March 13, 2022, 07:43:12 PM
I don't have difficulty reading what you wrote; I just don't think it is as important as recognizing the history of Jazz and what the major artists did. If you wish to live in a solipsistic world where you create your own echo chamber and ignore the objective reality, that is your choice. It is not something I care to indulge.
To bolded text, pot calling the kettle black. You should learn that not everybody agrees with you. This doesn't make you right or vice versa. It simply means I don't use the same criteria you do when evaluating music. Also, I never said anything about not recognizing what the giants of this music have done. I acknowledge jazz's history, but jazz didn't end in the 60s and Marsalis and his clan aren't the official spokespeople of what is or isn't jazz nor are you.
Little Brown Book, Trane and Duke. This is Jazz about book, rather than book about Jazz. Any other songs about a book?
Recently finished this one. Didn't like it all that much. The books is basically a dictionary of jazz music development in the US up until mid 1970s.
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Just ordered this new release via interlibrary loan.
Sonny's given many excellent and inspiring interviews in recent years. I doubt he'll write an autobiography, so better read this.
Ilike this book, the book covers every aspect of Rollins' life and career, from his childhood in Harlem to his early success as a bandleader and his influence on the jazz scene. Levy also explores Rollins' personal relationships, his collaborations with other jazz greats, and his place in the music world. Throughout the book, Levy provides insight into Rollins' personality and the way his music has evolved over the years. Additionally, Levy provides an in-depth look at Rollins' influence on the jazz scene and his lasting legacy. Saxophone Colossus is a must-read for any fan of Rollins or jazz music in general.
I hope this new tome on Rollins is good. It will have to go a long way to compete with:
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One of those books where the enthusiasm of the author, in this case poet Philip Larkin, rubs off onto the reader. A great read.
Quote from: Dry Brett Kavanaugh on March 15, 2022, 02:04:44 PMLittle Brown Book, Trane and Duke. This is Jazz about book, rather than book about Jazz. Any other songs about a book?
Booker Ervin's The Freedom Book, The Blues Book etc?
Quote from: Irons on August 17, 2023, 08:04:14 AMOne of those books where the enthusiasm of the author, in this case poet Philip Larkin, rubs off onto the reader. A great read.
Thanks. Looking forward to this one.
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Jazz Standards Ted Gioia (2012, Oxford University Press)
There are a few references on this site to previous books by Gioia (all seemingly fascinating). This one is more of a reference volume with interesting back stories on the creation of what we now consider classics. Don't think it's hubris to say that it should be on every jazz lovers' shelf. Not much else out there like it. If you've got a free hour here's a talk with Gioia on music and the industry, in general -