Verdi Aida, Warner 3 CDs: Pappano, Harteros, Kaufmann, Semenchuk, Tezier, Schrott, Santa Cecelia Orchestra and Chorus
For many years and despite a deal of competition my favourite recoding of this opera has been Solti with Price, Vickers and Gorr. Solti rushes much of it headlong and some listeners can't stand his conducting, especially on that set; but the soloists are fantastic. Although I remain faithful to Vickers and Price, the new set beats the Solti, and all the other sets I have, in a number of ways.
Most of the difference is caused by Pappano, he retains the drama, but brings out passage after passage, beautifully played, often tender always with great phrasing. The singers, even Schrott who I have in the past found vulgar, also phrase beautifully. It feels like he has rehearsed the soloists closely and created fruitful partnerships with them all. Everyone sings through phrases, but also make full dramatic sense of them.
Harteros does not have a glamorous voice, there is a lack of beautiful tone other than when she is below forte. But she really conveys a character and uses the words so well that I am happy to keep returning to this set. Kaufmann just sings so beautifully and imaginatively; time after time he pulls the ear in by singing mezzo piano where Corelli belts it out on the Mehta set. He provides a spinetingling diminuendo at the end of Celeste Aida giving notice of what is to come.
Semenchuk sings very well with the right weight of voice and with plenty of passion. This is a good quality East European voice with the swallowed sound their singers often have. I would prefer a voice production drawn more into the mask of the face. But she is excellent in many ways, again, as do they all, she provides musical phrasing that helps make the music flow through.
The orchestra is wonderful, as beautiful and powerful as any in this work and endlessly subtle with layers of beautiful sound, especially from the woodwind. The sound quality is excellent. This opera has two heroes, Pappano as well as his tenor. I hope they will give us an Otello together.
It is available at a bargain price for two, let alone three discs. There are notes and libretto. I hope the sales encourage Warners to go back into the studios for more opera.
Mike
One of my favorite Verdi operas, with no notable flaws with the possible exception of Amneris being so powerful role that she tends to overshadow Aida's meek character. And that really doesn't bother me at all. Not sure what is my favorite recording, although Muti has an excellent one.
I would be very happy to have people chip in on their opinions of the sets already out there.
The Muti is excellent, especially with Caballe who is able to float the high notes and ride the ensembles where necessary. I have never been fond of Domingo whose work is always reliable but who to me usually provides generalised characterisations. The first and second Karajan sets are well thought of, though above those I would prefer the Callas/Gobbi performance on Warner. I have a few sets, old and less old, but would like others to say what they think.
Mike
Well I gave in to the marketing and bought this new set. I'm not sure why. Aida isn't even my favourite Verdi opera, and yet I now have five recordings of it.
Presentation of this new studio recording (a rarity in itself these days) harks back to the old days. A nice hard back book, acts I and II given a CD each, with the last two acts on the final CD. Full text, translations and notes in three languages are included, with copious photos of the sessions, and all at an introductory bargain price. Warner have put a lot of faith in the enterprise, and I hope it will be a success, if only to precipitate more new studio recordings of opera.
So what of the performance? Well, to my mind, the two stars are Kaufmann and Pappano. Kaufmann fulfills all the requirements for strong heroic tone and lyrical poetry. The ending of Celeste Aida is one of the best I've heard, hitting the top Bb mezzoforte, then making a diminuendo to a truly ppp morendo close. He is every inch the noble warrior, the tender lover, and the tormented man torn between the two. It is a considerable achievement and one of the best Radames we have had on disc.
Pappano's shaping of the score is excellent and in the best Italian tradition, less self conscious than Karajan I, less apt to push the orchestra into the foreground than Karajan II and far preferable to the bombastic Solti. His balancing of the score's public and private elements is just about perfect, and his Santa Cecilia orchestra play brilliantly for him. The sound too is very good, achieving an excellent balance between orchestra and singers, who are never drowned out as they are in Karajan II.
The rest have all I think been bettered elsewhere. Best of them is Ludovic Tezier's Amonasro, a baritone with a good solid centre to his tone, and an almost Gobbi-like grasp of the role's dramatic demands. I have heard much firmer basses in the roles of Ramfis and the King than Erwin Schrott and Marco Spotti and neither of them makes much of an impression.
Of the two women, Ekaterina Semenchuk has all the notes and power for Amneris, just missing out on a really individual response to the words. I liked her quite a lot, though not as much as my favourite, Baltsa. As for Harteros, I have equivocal feelings. There are times when the role taxes her to the limit, and the ascent to top C in O patria mia is hard won, the final note thin, acrid and not quite in tune. She is easily outclassed by Caballe here. However she uses the words wonderfully well, and is thoroughly inside the role. My problem is that, though more responsive to the text than, say, Price or Tebadi, I find the voice itself somewhat anonymous. In some ways she reminds me of Freni, also a singer on the light side, and who also sings well off the words, but Freni makes the pleasanter, more individual sound.
So maybe not the last word in Aida recordings. I won't be throwing away Karajan II and certainly not Callas under Serafin (also now on Warner) or in any of the live recordings I have, but I will certainly be returning to it, especially for the contributions of Kaufmann and Pappano.
Solti, as you know, Mike, I can't take in Verdi, and, for me, he ruins the set with Price and Vickers. I'm not all that fond of Gorr's Amneris either, which, to my ears, sounds far too matronly. Muti is a safe bet, with Caballe giving one of her best performances on disc, and I rather like Karajan's second take on the opera, particularly Baltsa's young princess, but retain my affection for Callas and Gobbi with Serafin. I'm not sure Aida was ever a Callas role, even when she was hurling out a top Eb of gargantuan proportions in the Triumphal Scene in Mexico, but she makes more of the character than any, and the Nile Scene with her and Gobbi is simply tremendous.
Quote from: knight66 on October 07, 2015, 07:06:02 AM
This opera has two heroes, Pappano as well as his tenor. I hope they will give us an Otello together.
Now that would be something. Harteros might just be the right Desdemona too. The role would tax her less than Aida certainly.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on October 08, 2015, 12:28:34 AM
Now that would be something. Harteros might just be the right Desdemona too. The role would tax her less than Aida certainly.
Our feelings pretty much mesh; though unexpectedly, I enjoyed Schrott, a first for me. I have a live radio studio recording of Jessye Norman in the opera and I listened through to it yesterday thinking that in 1973, she would fulfil the needs here, but she does not. It sounds too heavy for her. There are no other compelling reasons to get hold of the set.
It was you I had in mind when I referred to the dislike for Solti's Aida. I agree with you that the Callas set provides a full measure of drama; but the new set offers better sound and more detail from the orchestra. It makes a good case for stressing how Verdi moved right away from the orchestra merely accompaning the singers or providing an introductory atmosphere.
I like Karajan II with Baltsa; but the engineering of that set really disturbs the experience. The singers are sunk into the sound picture and seem to have to fight with the orchestra to be heard. Karajan produced several sets with this problem, clearly it was his choice to treat the singers as additional orchestral instruments.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on October 08, 2015, 12:59:39 AM
I like Karajan II with Baltsa; but the engineering of that set really disturbs the experience. The singers are sunk into the sound picture and seem to have to fight with the orchestra to be heard. Karajan produced several sets with this problem, clearly it was his choice to treat the singers as additional orchestral instruments.
Mike
I agree with you about the recording. My main problem is with the ridiculously wide dynamic range. With the sound turned up high enough to the hear the quieter sections of the score, you are likely to blasted out of your sight for the next orchestral
tutti. It might be thrilling if you have the luxury of a sound-proofed listening room in the middle of the country, but if you live in a small flat in the middle of a big city, as I do, it makes listening a very uncomfortable experience. Mind you it's nowhere near as bad as his
Don Carlo in this respect, possibly because it was recorded in Vienna rather than in Berlin.
Quote from: knight66 on October 07, 2015, 07:06:02 AM
This opera has two heroes, Pappano as well as his tenor. I hope they will give us an Otello together.
... and hope it doesn't come with Domingo as Iago :o
Very interesting. There is no 'perfect' Aida and it seems this set continues this trend. It requires at least 4 top singers and having only one makes me wary of getting it, but maybe there will be a deal along the way. That said, I like the Solti. Don't see the problem with his conducting. The best sung that I have is the Bjorling/Milanov/Barbieri/Warren. The problem with it is the god awful sound, which gives the effect of being performed in a mono bathtub with all the worst you can imagine. It's such a shame, because the singing is just so good. Admittedly, I have the original issue on cd, so if they improved it, it may be worth another look.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 08, 2015, 10:52:43 AM
That said, I like the Solti. Don't see the problem with his conducting.
Like all his Verdi - bombastic; no sense of the long, lyrical line; climaxes hammered home for all they are worth. Need I go on.
Pappano's is quite possibly the best conducted version I've heard.
Incidentally, I don't much like Milanov in anything. Always found her dull as ditchwater. If we're talking of best sung Aida (the character) I think she yields to Caballe and Price.
Don't cry for me; I'm Aida!
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on October 08, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
Like all his Verdi - bombastic; no sense of the long, lyrical line; climaxes hammered home for all they are worth. Need I go on.
Pappano's is quite possibly the best conducted version I've heard.
Incidentally, I don't much like Milanov in anything. Always found her dull as ditchwater. If we're talking of best sung Aida (the character) I think she yields to Caballe and Price.
Well, I like some of what you don't like, but would not agree about the lyrical/long line, but hey, that's why they have different versions.
I agree with you on Milanov to some degree, but I like the foursome as a whole. And she is better here than in some other recordings I have heard of her.
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on October 08, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
Like all his Verdi - bombastic; no sense of the long, lyrical line; climaxes hammered home for all they are worth. Need I go on.
Not just his Verdi, I dislike his Wagner for the same reason. It's actually even worse in Wagner since those operas are all about the long line and a measure by measure conductor like Solti damages the melodic flow.
And the constant underlining--Solti reminds me of my grad school classmates who used to highlight every other sentence in their texts.
Quote from: howlingfantods on October 08, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
Not just his Verdi, I dislike his Wagner for the same reason. It's actually even worse in Wagner since those operas are all about the long line and a measure by measure conductor like Solti damages the melodic flow.
And the constant underlining--Solti reminds me of my grad school classmates who used to highlight every other sentence in their texts.
Exactly the same reservations I have with Solti in Wagner (and almost everyting else)...The end result is one of constant feverishness and nervousness, which might be very theatrical, but detracts from the overall enjoyment of the music, IMHO. Having said that, his
Tannhäuser I find quite accomplshed..
Back to topic, I listened to this new Decca
Aïda while browsing in that lovely CD shop
Die Zauberflöte in Munich (the owner was pleased that I asked whether it was "the new
Pappano Aïda", not "the new
Kaufmann Aïda" ;) ), and found it rather good (granted, it was a cursory listen)...
Ok, back on topic :)
I listened to the Pappano when they were streaming it pre-release. I thought it was good not great, for an opera with a lot of pretty classic recordings. I like Kaufmann in Verdi but not as much as I like him in Wagner, and I wasn't really that wowed by Harteros--I thought she seemed a little strained at times, but I'm not that familiar with her so it might just be how she sounds.
I'm less crazy about Aida than about many other Verdi operas. I think this new one is a quality recording and I wouldn't sneer at anyone for preferring it overall, but I'll probably not buy it. I tend to split up my listening between the Bjorling/Milanov/Perlea, the Callas/Tucker/Serafin and the Price/Domingo/Leinsdorf.
What's the consensus on the classic Toscanini/NBC recording? I find it poorly recorded, with somewhat uneven vocals (Richard Tucker is wonderful as Radames, Herva Nelli somewhat less so as Aida, and a very young Teresa Stich-Randall sounds just lovely as the Priestess in Act I, Scene 2), fine choral work by the Robert Shaw Chorale, and utterly compelling conducting by the legendary Toscanini.
It is a long time since I heard the Toscinini; I used to have it on vinal. For me it suffered from the usual Toscanini defect in the Italian repertoire; while the male singers do well, the female ones somehow do better under other conductors.
While I rebought his Otello and Falstaff on CD, I did not buy the Aida, in part due to the Aida and for the notorioriously hard sound.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on October 10, 2015, 10:13:21 PM
It is a long time since I heard the Toscinini; I used to have it on vinal.
Is that viral? ;)
Sersiously, thanks to you and Tsaras for the reports on the new recording ... nearly bought it on yesterday's shopping spree (went for the new Igor Levit and part 2 the Schumann trilogy by Faust/Queyras/Melnikov). As I'm quite fascinated by Harteros (which does not mean: won over), my curiosity is piqued now and this goes onto the shopping list indeed!
Well do report back once you have had a listen.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on October 07, 2015, 11:38:47 PM
I would be very happy to have people chip in on their opinions of the sets already out there.
My favorites are Perlea, Muti (2001 re-issue), Karajan '59 and Solti. I especially love Gorr and Vickers under the Great Solti. Maazel, Karajan (chamber opera) and Mehta are the ones that I'm not very fond of. I can place Abbado after my favorites
Price, Gorr and Vickers for me: I know that as suggested, Gorr does not sound young, but she has a powerhouse of a voice. No tenor does as much with the words as Vickers. Correli on Mehta does the diminuendo at the end of Celeste Aida, but he hammers lots of other phrases like a mallet.
Mike
Not sure yet what my favorite "Aida" is ... if I had to name one right now, it would be Perlea 1955, but I need a few more years for it to sink in I guess, as it's so far not even a real favorite regarding Verdi or opera in general.
Anyway, I just see that aFR, aIT and aUK have the Pappano edition "under investigation" (not aDE or aCOM) - anyone has a clue what this might be about? The note provides no further information:
QuoteItem Under Review
While this item is available from other Marketplace Sellers on this page, it's not currently offered by Amazon.co.uk because customers have told us there may be something wrong with our inventory of the item, the way we are dispatching it, or the way it's described here. (Thanks for the tip!)
We are working to resolve this as quickly as possible. In the meantime, you may still find this product available from other sellers on this page.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Verdi-Aida-Giuseppe/dp/B00Y9GQT7E/
Quote from: king ubu on October 11, 2015, 12:07:58 PM
Not sure yet what my favorite "Aida" is ... if I had to name one right now, it would be Perlea 1955, but I need a few more years for it to sink in I guess, as it's so far not even a real favorite regarding Verdi or opera in general.
Anyway, I just see that aFR, aIT and aUK have the Pappano edition "under investigation" (not aDE or aCOM) - anyone has a clue what this might be about? The note provides no further information:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Verdi-Aida-Giuseppe/dp/B00Y9GQT7E/
Strangely, the US Amazon doesn't have this for the same product (same ASIN)...
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 11, 2015, 05:13:44 PM
Strangely, the US Amazon doesn't have this for the same product (same ASIN)...
Not strange; we don't have any of the same ASIN's as in the UK, or at least I can say, when someone has posted one here or I have hunted one, it has never been the same. Frustrating sometimes. :-\
8)
Quote from: king ubu on October 11, 2015, 12:07:58 PM
Anyway, I just see that aFR, aIT and aUK have the Pappano edition "under investigation" (not aDE or aCOM) - anyone has a clue what this might be about? The note provides no further information:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Verdi-Aida-Giuseppe/dp/B00Y9GQT7E/
All seems to be ok now
Quote from: knight66 on October 11, 2015, 10:43:33 AM
Price, Gorr and Vickers for me: I know that as suggested, Gorr does not sound young, but she has a powerhouse of a voice. No tenor does as much with the words as Vickers. Correli on Mehta does the diminuendo at the end of Celeste Aida, but he hammers lots of other phrases like a mallet.
Mike
Do you have other preferences for the individual popular arias such as Celeste, Qui Radames Verra O Patria Mia, Ritorna vincitor and O terra addio?
Caballe for the Aida arias and Baltsa for Amneris, Bjoerling is a splendid Radames.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on October 19, 2015, 02:25:09 AM
Caballe for the Aida arias and Baltsa for Amneris, Bjoerling is a splendid Radames.
Mike
I'd go with that, though Kaufmann's
Celeste Aida is pretty stunning, with a truly
pp morendo close.
Not an aria, but I'd choose Callas and Gobbi in the Nile Scene, and, now that I think of it, Callas for
Ritorna vincitor too.
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on October 21, 2015, 10:12:28 AM
I'd go with that, though Kaufmann's Celeste Aida is pretty stunning, with a truly pp morendo close.
Not an aria, but I'd choose Callas and Gobbi in the Nile Scene, and, now that I think of it, Callas for Ritorna vincitor too.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F29t58iqL._SY355_.jpg)
Which Callas performance of "
Ritorna vincitor" did you have in mind?- because for me, without question, it has to be her searing 1951 Fabritiis/Mexico City performance. Callas' dramatic colorings are of such stupendous majesty. I've never heard anything like it anywhere.
Quote from: Marsch MacFiercesome on November 20, 2015, 06:07:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F29t58iqL._SY355_.jpg)
Which Callas performance of "Ritorna vincitor" did you have in mind?- because for me, without question, it has to be her searing 1951 Fabritiis/Mexico City performance. Callas' dramatic colorings are of such stupendous majesty. I've never heard anything like it anywhere.
True, though even when she recorded the aria in the studio in 1964, her performance is searingly dramatic and she recovers much of her earlier fire. I love this performance partly because of the sound, but also because of the circumstances surrounding its recording. It was during those late sessions with Rescigno in Paris. Apparently the day hadn't been going well and Callas was feeling tense and unhappy. During a break in the recording, Michel Glotz played a recording of Regine Crespin singing the aria, which had been recorded the previous day. Callas became quite animated, declaring the performance slow and lacking in any real drama. She asked if the parts were still there, and when told that they were, said "Come on, Nicola, let's do it." And that's what they did. In one take with no rehearsal. Maybe the challenge was what she needed, because the performance is thrilling and her voice sounds more secure than at any other time during these sessions.
I have found the 1951 performance on Spotify; it is amazing on the wing singing and acting. Once again in that aria I find that very rare quality with her: as though she is inventing the music as it unrolls. It is such a special quality and very few have it. I am now listening to more of the performance, sounds like an over all good cast. How does the set stand up more widely; leaving aside the harsh sound quality?
Mike
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on November 20, 2015, 03:23:28 PM
True, though even when she recorded the aria in the studio in 1964, her performance is searingly dramatic and she recovers much of her earlier fire. I love this performance partly because of the sound, but also because of the circumstances surrounding its recording. It was during those late sessions with Rescigno in Paris. Apparently the day hadn't been going well and Callas was feeling tense and unhappy. During a break in the recording, Michel Glotz played a recording of Regine Crespin singing the aria, which had been recorded the previous day. Callas became quite animated, declaring the performance slow and lacking in any real drama. She asked if the parts were still there, and when told that they were, said "Come on, Nicola, let's do it." And that's what they did. In one take with no rehearsal. Maybe the challenge was what she needed, because the performance is thrilling and her voice sounds more secure than at any other time during these sessions.
(http://www.hbdirect.com/coverm/thumbnails/825646340019.jpg)
I couldn't agree more.
There is something so singular and glorious about the dramatic chiaroscuro brilliance of Callas' '64 studio "
Ritorna vincitor!" that isn't heard by any other singer (outside of Callas' own '52 Mexico City performance, that is).
First, there's the absolutely fierce, dramatically compelling, and completely unique way Callas inflects the word "
reggia" ("country") from the outset of the aria- where she aggressively and frustratingly reflects on how she just wished defeat on her father for the sake of her beloved. Callas' Aida is a princess who can be as imperious and commanding as they come- pure '
DIV-A.'
But then, coming around one-hundred and eighty degrees to the other side of the emotional spectrum, there's the most tender and heart rending inflections one will ever hear of Aida reflecting on the possibility of Radames being destroyed in battle by her father. The way Callas emotionally suffuses the words "
E l'amor mio?" "And my love?") just rip my 'heart' out. This is a woman who is almost beyond endurance- and so am I when listening to it. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
Of course Greg mentions that this recording of the aria was done extemporaneously and without prior preparation.
Sheer brilliance.
Genius of the highest order.
Quote from: knight66 on November 21, 2015, 01:21:37 AM
I have found the 1951 performance on Spotify; it is amazing on the wing singing and acting. Once again in that aria I find that very rare quality with her: as though she is inventing the music as it unrolls. It is such a special quality and very few have it. I am now listening to more of the performance, sounds like an over all good cast. How does the set stand up more widely; leaving aside the harsh sound quality?
Mike
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2a/16/03/2a1603ce0d0eec5183c3d21442253ff9.jpg)
Truth to tell, the sound quality of the '51 Callas/Del Monaco Mexico City Aida is so austere that I rarely listen to it in its entirety- so I really can't attest to the merits of the principals, the conducting, or the orchestral response.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V5vkkW6hL._SY355_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xPBv%2BUDML._SX300_.jpg)
When I listen to an entire
Aida, I must confess I usually listen to the Caballe/Muti or the Freni/Karajan.
- But when I'm listening to "Ritorna vincitor!" all I can say is
"Viva Mexico!"
Thanks MM.
Mike
Pleasure, Mike. ;D
Quote from: Marsch MacFiercesome on November 22, 2015, 06:05:16 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2a/16/03/2a1603ce0d0eec5183c3d21442253ff9.jpg)
Truth to tell, the sound quality of the '51 Callas/Del Monaco Mexico City Aida is so austere that I rarely listen to it in its entirety- so I really can't attest to the merits of the principals, the conducting, or the orchestral response.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V5vkkW6hL._SY355_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51xPBv%2BUDML._SX300_.jpg)
When I listen to an entire Aida, I must confess I usually listen to the Caballe/Muti or the Freni/Karajan.
- But when I'm listening to "Ritorna vincitor!" all I can say is "Viva Mexico!"
These two would probably be my recommendations for a complete studio
Aida too, but then I think of the Nile Scene, with Callas and Gobbi tearing up the sound stage, and I have to add this one too.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81eYCWhmFOL._SL1500_.jpg)
Mike knows my views on the Solti. Would that the same cast had sung it under Karajan!
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on November 23, 2015, 02:15:18 AM
These two would probably be my recommendations for a complete studio Aida too, but then I think of the Nile Scene, with Callas and Gobbi tearing up the sound stage, and I have to add this one too.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81eYCWhmFOL._SL1500_.jpg)
Mike knows my views on the Solti. Would that the same cast had sung it under Karajan!
Shelve thy Solti.
Put on thy Karajan.
AH-men.
You are a rotten lot you know.
>:D
Mike
Well I love the Solti and generally dislike the sound of Callas's voice (though no denying the greatness of the artist). So there! :-*
PS: I feel like I'm in the unpopular opinions thread! :'(
No, just a conjunction of opinions. I love the Solti, but can hear the faults in it. He really does rush the fences as loudly as possible. I find his Nile Scene very exciting and I do really love those voices.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on November 23, 2015, 10:24:27 AM
You are a rotten lot you know.
>:D
Mike
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ed/ef/94/edef946acc7c3bdcd420b026641757d9.jpg)
I can't help it that my perfection makes other people feel less than perfect.
Give a blonde a break, Mike.
;D (http://s6.postimg.org/ms59aqbgx/Verdi_Aida.jpg)
<Exeunt Marsch to the Triumphal March music.>
Quote from: knight66 on November 23, 2015, 10:32:43 AM
No, just a conjunction of opinions. I love the Solti, but can hear the faults in it. He really does rush the fences as loudly as possible. I find his Nile Scene very exciting and I do really love those voices.
Mike
I like the voices on the Solti too; and I like Solti's ebullient, effusive, and warm Hungarian personality as well.
But its the rushed and indelicate non-finessings of his conducting that I don't particularly care for.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 23, 2015, 10:26:41 AM
Well I love the Solti and generally dislike the sound of Callas's voice (though no denying the greatness of the artist). So there! :-*
PS: I feel like I'm in the unpopular opinions thread! :'(
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/60/3d/d5/603dd5cb571263e88c248c4c26c4f8f5.jpg)
I can't fault you for not liking Callas' voice- or even thinking that its harsh, shrill, or hollow at times- I know I didn't like Callas for a long time; or rather I 'thought' that I didn't- that is to say, until I really ' ' listened ' ' to how compellingly she colored, shaded, and inflected every dramatic nuance to what she sang.
- Then it clicked. -
Now I think she's the most exciting singer I've ever heard in my life.
When I first heard her '58 Covent Garden
Traviata it reduced me to quivering rubble in the SECOND act- not the third; and when I heard her '53 Florence Medea, '52 Lady Macbeth, and Armida- I knew that I had found my Dramatic Diva not just of the Age- but of Many Ages. I just went out and bought 'everything' of hers.
I would trade the entire
œuvres of the exquisitely-sung but pleasantly-boring Sutherlands, Kiris, Flemings, and Tebaldis for just one vintage Callas recording. . .
Anyway, I know how you feel. I've been on both sides of the fence.
I just wanted to point out that there's two sides to it when you may think that there is only one.
How the heck is Karajan's EMI Aida out of print?! Or am I just not searching hard enough?
Quote from: betterthanfine on November 24, 2015, 11:58:56 AM
How the heck is Karajan's EMI Aida out of print?! Or am I just not searching hard enough?
http://www.amazon.com/Verdi-Carreras-Cappuccilli-Raimondi-Ricciarelli/dp/B000002SDW/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1448400740&sr=1-1&keywords=aida+karajan+emi
You just have eyes wide shut- like I do sometimes. . . well, 'more than sometimes.'
Thanks for that, but all of those are used copies and the new ones are fairly pricey. It just surprises me to see that there are Karajan recordings that haven't been reissued to death, especially with singers such as Freni, Baltsa and Carreras in the cast. ;)
I buy second hand if I can. I have only had, I think, two problems in many years. I see some that are being shipped from sellers in Europe on Amazon for about £5 and described as 'very good'. That usualy means virtually like new. I buy a lot from Zoverstocks and have never had a problem with them.
Mike
That Karajan Aida is in the bumper Karajan opera box on EMI. I had a look to see whether that was going for a bargain rate, you might have been interested. But I could have a holiday on the second-hand rate and buy a car with the new prices suggested.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on November 24, 2015, 11:12:06 PM
I buy second hand if I can. I have only had, I think, two problems in many years. I see some that are being shipped from sellers in Europe on Amazon for about £5 and described as 'very good'. That usualy means virtually like new. I buy a lot from Zoverstocks and have never had a problem with them.
Mike
I also buy second hand quite a lot from Amazon marketplace. Only once or twice have I had a problem with a CD, and there was no problem getting a refund, the seller often telling me just to ditch the CD, whilst they issued a full refund (including postage). There should be no fear and if something is listed as "very good" or "as new", then it generally is. In fact I often prefer to look for the original plush CD issue to the re-issue, which often comes without libretto or translation.
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on November 25, 2015, 12:23:01 AM
I also buy second hand quite a lot from Amazon marketplace. Only once or twice have I had a problem with a CD, and there was no problem getting a refund, the seller often telling me just to ditch the CD, whilst they issued a full refund (including postage). There should be no fear and if something is listed as "very good" or "as new", then it generally is. In fact I often prefer to look for the original plush CD issue to the re-issue, which often comes without libretto or translation.
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0000/997/MI0000997487.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)
I only have the occasional problem of being sent the wrong cd; or even a damaged one from all of the myriad vendors that I buy from at Amazon Marketplace. (Cracked jewel boxes are a different matter.)
I did however once order the SRO incarnation of the Callas/Karajan La Scala
Lucia- and the vendor sent me the Callas/Del Monaco/Mexico City
Lucia instead.
I 'almost' went into meltdown- but I gave the vendor the benefit of the doubt first and explained what happened.
The vendor was profusely apologetic, told me to keep the Mexico
Lucia, and that he'd immediately send me the Karajan/La Scala one.
- So I suppose 'sunshine and light' when dealing with vendors works better than 'full meltdown in Medea-mode.'
Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha.
I rarely have issues with used discs. The problem is usually with the documentation and it not being in as good a shape as I thought it would be. I usually don't care with other genres, but for opera, I like to go through the libretto and booklets. So for opera, I must admit to rarely buying used ones anymore unless it is like new. This is especially true with Opera Rara releases, where part of the joy is often in the documentation and storage.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2015, 06:05:36 AM
I rarely have issues with used discs. The problem is usually with the documentation and it not being in as good a shape as I thought it would be. I usually don't care with other genres, but for opera, I like to go through the libretto and booklets. So for opera, I must admit to rarely buying used ones anymore unless it is like new. This is especially true with Opera Rara releases, where part of the joy is often in the documentation and storage.
I'm the same. I do often buy used products, but rarely online. There's a few book stores around where I live that offer used classical CDs, and I love to go in there and browse, often finding things I
didn't know I needed had been looking for. One of the perks is that you can immediately check the state of the product.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 23, 2015, 10:26:41 AM
Well I love the Solti and generally dislike the sound of Callas's voice (though no denying the greatness of the artist). So there! :-*
PS: I feel like I'm in the unpopular opinions thread! :'(
This may be unpopular too, but Freni, in my opinion, has a voice too light for Aida.
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 27, 2015, 04:22:47 AM
This may be unpopular too, but Freni, in my opinion, has a voice too light for Aida.
ZB
I feel the same way: Freni has a 'beautiful' voice, but she doesn't have the volume to make a 'fierce' Aida.
Quote from: Marsch MacFiercesome on November 27, 2015, 04:36:07 AM
I feel the same way: Freni has a 'beautiful' voice, but she doesn't have the volume to make a 'fierce' Aida.
Well, and then there was that quip about Carreras (a singer I greatly admire) as Radamès: "Nemorino nell'Egitto"... :D
I was in chorus for a Verdi Aida with Carreras. At the orchestral rehearsal he made several slip-ups. After the third wrong entry, Abbado looked at him full on and Carreras was foolish enough to then blame a member of the orchestra who had dropped a pencil. Thereafter, every time he opened his mouth Abbado was plagued by the string sections dropping pencils.
It reminded me of his rather flustered rehearsals for the recording of West Side Story. On film Bernstein gets more than testy with him.
Mike
Quote from: ritter on November 27, 2015, 04:42:47 AM
Well, and then there was that quip about Carreras (a singer I greatly admire) as Radamès: "Nemorino nell'Egitto"... :D
^ "
Nemorino nell-Egitto"-
I'M DY-ING!!! Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Totally great. My kind of humor all the way.
'The Little Man who tries to project a big voice.'
I know of one- only he lives in New Zealand.
But that's another dish for another day.
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on October 08, 2015, 12:18:12 AM
Well I gave in to the marketing and bought this new set. I'm not sure why. Aida isn't even my favourite Verdi opera, and yet I now have five recordings of it.
Presentation of this new studio recording (a rarity in itself these days) harks back to the old days. A nice hard back book, acts I and II given a CD each, with the last two acts on the final CD. Full text, translations and notes in three languages are included, with copious photos of the sessions, and all at an introductory bargain price. Warner have put a lot of faith in the enterprise, and I hope it will be a success, if only to precipitate more new studio recordings of opera.
So what of the performance? Well, to my mind, the two stars are Kaufmann and Pappano. Kaufmann fulfills all the requirements for strong heroic tone and lyrical poetry. The ending of Celeste Aida is one of the best I've heard, hitting the top Bb mezzoforte, then making a diminuendo to a truly ppp morendo close. He is every inch the noble warrior, the tender lover, and the tormented man torn between the two. It is a considerable achievement and one of the best Radames we have had on disc.
Pappano's shaping of the score is excellent and in the best Italian tradition, less self conscious than Karajan I, less apt to push the orchestra into the foreground than Karajan II and far preferable to the bombastic Solti. His balancing of the score's public and private elements is just about perfect, and his Santa Cecilia orchestra play brilliantly for him. The sound too is very good, achieving an excellent balance between orchestra and singers, who are never drowned out as they are in Karajan II.
The rest have all I think been bettered elsewhere. Best of them is Ludovic Tezier's Amonasro, a baritone with a good solid centre to his tone, and an almost Gobbi-like grasp of the role's dramatic demands. I have heard much firmer basses in the roles of Ramfis and the King than Erwin Schrott and Marco Spotti and neither of them makes much of an impression.
Of the two women, Ekaterina Semenchuk has all the notes and power for Amneris, just missing out on a really individual response to the words. I liked her quite a lot, though not as much as my favourite, Baltsa. As for Harteros, I have equivocal feelings. There are times when the role taxes her to the limit, and the ascent to top C in O patria mia is hard won, the final note thin, acrid and not quite in tune. She is easily outclassed by Caballe here. However she uses the words wonderfully well, and is thoroughly inside the role. My problem is that, though more responsive to the text than, say, Price or Tebadi, I find the voice itself somewhat anonymous. In some ways she reminds me of Freni, also a singer on the light side, and who also sings well off the words, but Freni makes the pleasanter, more individual sound.
So maybe not the last word in Aida recordings. I won't be throwing away Karajan II and certainly not Callas under Serafin (also now on Warner) or in any of the live recordings I have, but I will certainly be returning to it, especially for the contributions of Kaufmann and Pappano.
Solti, as you know, Mike, I can't take in Verdi, and, for me, he ruins the set with Price and Vickers. I'm not all that fond of Gorr's Amneris either, which, to my ears, sounds far too matronly. Muti is a safe bet, with Caballe giving one of her best performances on disc, and I rather like Karajan's second take on the opera, particularly Baltsa's young princess, but retain my affection for Callas and Gobbi with Serafin. I'm not sure Aida was ever a Callas role, even when she was hurling out a top Eb of gargantuan proportions in the Triumphal Scene in Mexico, but she makes more of the character than any, and the Nile Scene with her and Gobbi is simply tremendous.
My copy of the Pappano Aida arrived today, and I am listening to it now....currently in the middle of Act 3. Greg's comments seem very accurate to me.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 27, 2015, 04:22:47 AM
This may be unpopular too, but Freni, in my opinion, has a voice too light for Aida.
ZB
I actually agree with you, but, intelligent singer as she is, she copes with it pretty well, better than Harteros on the new Pappano set, who I also think is a little too light for the role. Harteros makes an affecting heroine, without ever quite convincing she has the right size voice for the role. But where are the Ponselles, the Tebaldis, the Prices today? I'm not sure I can think of anyone.
Quote from: Greg Mitchell on November 28, 2015, 01:47:35 PM
I actually agree with you, but, intelligent singer as she is, she copes with it pretty well, better than Harteros on the new Pappano set, who I also think is a little too light for the role. Harteros makes an affecting heroine, without ever quite convincing she has the right size voice for the role. But where are the Ponselles, the Tebaldis, the Prices today? I'm not sure I can think of anyone.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6f/51/16/6f51167d70672d6fad9858abdb8ebff9.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d3/d4/c0/d3d4c09a8fcff15b40643ce290b4aad0.jpg)
God bless Pappano and Hateros for turning out such a wonderful
Aida <mwwwaaaaaaaah!>- but I still feel that we're in a Silver or even a Bronze Age of singers- and not just for 'Aidas.'
When I hear Ponselle's huge column of pristine, dark, port-wine sound- or, say, Callas' psychologically compelling colorations and inflections for something like "
D'amor sull'ali rosee"- singing which is so infinitely artistic and spontaneous sounding- I'm just floored beyond compare.
I can listen to these singers incessantly but never too often.
Such poignant and arresting expressivity to me is Eternal- and never goes out of fashion.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/53/e3/d3/53e3d3b1b658dc1d02230991751ac168.jpg)
"O Patria Mia" is nearly 100 years old but has an immediacy about it:
https://www.youtube.com/v/wd98BQRB5MQ
Rosa Ponselle admitted great anxiety before having to sing notes above the staff. Here the pace is sped up to the high C that she manages quite well once she gets there. Probably her voice was one that cannot exactly be categorized, as quite a few really great voices are. In her time it was nicer to admit being a soprano. At any rate the roles were usually much better.
Zb
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 30, 2015, 06:31:04 AM
"O Patria Mia" is nearly 100 years old but has an immediacy about it:
https://www.youtube.com/v/wd98BQRB5MQ
Rosa Ponselle admitted great anxiety before having to sing notes above the staff. Here the pace is sped up to the high C that she manages quite well once she gets there. Probably her voice was one that cannot exactly be categorized, as quite a few really great voices are. In her time it was nicer to admit being a soprano. At any rate the roles were usually much better.
Zb
What a magnificent voice, though I suspect these days she might well have been classified as a mezzo. She always transposed down
Sempre libera in
La Traviata, but then so did Tebaldi, and nobody would call her a mezzo. That said, Tebaldi, in interview in Luca Rasponi's book
The Last of the Prima Donnas bemoans the ever rising pitch of modern orchestras, making top C, for her, more of a hurdle than it needed to be. Nor did she ever sing the
Trovatore Leonora on stage, because the general tessitura of the role was just that bit too high. Ponselle did sing the role, though I have no idea whether she made transpositions in the arias.
But, as you say, why is it necessary to categorise singers? Better just to enjoy their work.
I do like the above description of her voice:
' Ponselle's huge column of pristine, dark, port-wine sound'
It was a formidabe voice, quite dark. Philistine that I am however, I can't take much of that vintage of recorded sound.
Mike
Acoustic recording until 1925, didn't exactly do justice to a singing voice. So Ponselle should have sounded much better in person. As for the mezzo debate, I can speak from personal experience and from working with women. I have what is called a light soprano voice and high notes are no big deal for me. So it may be a question of what is called heaviness or darkness in the overall sound. These descriptions, though useful, are not scientific terms but might have something to do with relative thickness of the vocal cords.
Maybe Tebaldi was just plain lazy at times, given some of her shmeared coloratura, but she could float a long high C at the end of the first act in La Bohème.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 30, 2015, 06:31:04 AM
"O Patria Mia" is nearly 100 years old but has an immediacy about it:
https://www.youtube.com/v/wd98BQRB5MQ
Rosa Ponselle admitted great anxiety before having to sing notes above the staff. Here the pace is sped up to the high C that she manages quite well once she gets there. Probably her voice was one that cannot exactly be categorized, as quite a few really great voices are. In her time it was nicer to admit being a soprano. At any rate the roles were usually much better.
Zb
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f1/75/62/f17562e8c8c30f2fece7619f61d07779.jpg)
Oh absolutely.
Equally true though is that Ponselle had this huge and overwhelmingly pristine tone that I just don't 'hear' anywhere else- except of course in early Callas.
Well, admittedly, Ponselle can be slightly firmer in tone at times, but Callas completely 'OWNS' when it comes to color, inflection, and compellingly-dramatic expressivity; the likes of which I've heard nowhere else.
Quote from: knight66 on November 30, 2015, 10:27:27 AM
I do like the above description of her voice:
' Ponselle's huge column of pristine, dark, port-wine sound'
It was a formidabe voice, quite dark. Philistine that I am however, I can't take much of that vintage of recorded sound.
Mike
I know. I'm not exactly the greatest cheerleader for austere monaural and acoustical recordings either- but then: Where else is such singing to be found?
Quote from: Marsch MacFiercesome on December 01, 2015, 08:13:13 AM
Equally true though is that Ponselle had this huge and overwhelmingly pristine tone that I just don't 'hear' anywhere else- except of course in early Callas.
Well, admittedly, Ponselle can be firmer in tone, but Callas completely 'OWNS' when it comes to color, inflection, and compellingly-dramatic expressivity; the likes of which I've heard nowhere else.
You can try Claudia Muzio, a kind of in between Ponselle and Callas, that I suspect may have influenced the latter by way of recordings:
https://www.youtube.com/v/k0Du4qYfpWk
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 30, 2015, 08:37:49 PM
Acoustic recording until 1925, didn't exactly do justice to a singing voice. So Ponselle should have sounded much better in person. As for the mezzo debate, I can speak from personal experience and from working with women. I have what is called a light soprano voice and high notes are no big deal for me. So it may be a question of what is called heaviness or darkness in the overall sound. These descriptions, though useful, are not scientific terms but might have something to do with relative thickness of the vocal cords.
Maybe Tebaldi was just plain lazy at times, given some of her shmeared coloratura, but she could float a long high C at the end of the first act in La Bohème.
I never knew that the girth of the vocal chords had anything to do with the richness of the sound.
Can anyone 'in the know' around here expound on the physiology of why this is so?
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 01, 2015, 08:25:20 AM
You can try Claudia Muzio, a kind of in between Ponselle and Callas, that I suspect may have influenced the latter by way of recordings:
https://www.youtube.com/v/k0Du4qYfpWk
Certainly.
- Thumbs up.
Merci.
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on November 30, 2015, 06:31:04 AM
"O Patria Mia" is nearly 100 years old but has an immediacy about it:
https://www.youtube.com/v/wd98BQRB5MQ
Rosa Ponselle admitted great anxiety before having to sing notes above the staff. Here the pace is sped up to the high C that she manages quite well once she gets there. Probably her voice was one that cannot exactly be categorized, as quite a few really great voices are. In her time it was nicer to admit being a soprano. At any rate the roles were usually much better.
Zb
Indeed a lovely voice! I noticed that the recording sounds sharp to my ears, which means it was probably played back at a faster speed than when it was recorded, meaning that Ms. Ponselle's voice sounds less dark than it would have in the concert hall or opera house.
Quote from: Marsch MacFiercesome on December 01, 2015, 08:29:27 AM
I never knew that the girth of the vocal chords had anything to do with the richness of the sound.
Can anyone 'in the know' around here expound on the physiology of why this is so?
I don't think anyone has really compared the size or width of mezzo to soprano vocal cords but what happens with men upon maturity can give a clue:
"Under the influence of androgens, the voice box, or larynx, grows in both sexes. This growth is far more prominent in boys than in girls and is more easily perceived. It causes the voice to drop and deepen. Along with the larynx, the vocal folds (vocal cords) grow significantly longer and thicker." (Wikipedia)
I often try to match up physiology with voice types. It doesn't always pan out but trilling coloraturas tend to be tiny women (e.g.,Dessay, Pons, Rita Streich, Mado Robin). Chest capacity seems to have something do with dramatic staying power. The famous English alto, Clara Butt, was a formidable woman.
But it is probably not just one of these factors that makes a higher or lower female voice but a combination. In general, the difference between mezzo and soprano comfort zone is about the interval of a third.
Quote from: jochanaan on December 01, 2015, 06:46:36 PM
Indeed a lovely voice! I noticed that the recording sounds sharp to my ears, which means it was probably played back at a faster speed than when it was recorded, meaning that Ms. Ponselle's voice sounds less dark than it would have in the concert hall or opera house.
By golly, you're right! It's about a semitone higher. No wonder I felt that some parts were faster than usual.
ZB