As someone of Islamic background I am especially saddened that, once again, people who claim to be Muslims carried a horrendous and barbaric attack on innocents.
And let's not forget that a couple of weeks ago a plane full of Russians flying out of Egypt was blown up by this same group (200 dead.)
I mourn for the victims and their families.
I find it fascinating how quite this forum is regarding this incident. A bit of an embarrassment for people who have espoused a certain narrative perhaps? Reminds me of the rotherham case, which nobody seems to be talking about. Ever.
How many more hundreds of people must be killed, maimed or injured before the European political establishment realize that radical islam must be extirpated from Europe before it extirpates Europe? All radical imams and preachers should immediately and irrevocably be deported together with their family and followers and their mosques should be permanently shut down. And above all, the criminally lax Muslim immigration policies should be drastically revised and ammended.
Quote from: Purusha on November 15, 2015, 12:31:18 AM
I find it fascinating how quite this forum is regarding this incident. A bit of an embarrassment for people who have espoused a certain narrative perhaps? Reminds me of the rotherham case, which nobody seems to be talking about. Ever.
Perhaps because there are so many forums to discuss this, and because we don't want this forum to implode like so many other forums have? Of course I have strong feelings about this, but I will keep the to meyself here and focus of music, which is a great equalizer over many other differences.
Quote from: Florestan on November 15, 2015, 12:45:29 AM
How many more hundreds of people must be killed, maimed or injured before the European political establishment realize that radical islam must be extirpated from Europe before it extirpates Europe? All radical imams and preachers should immediately and irrevocably be deported together with their family and followers and their mosques should be permanently shut down. And above all, the criminally lax Muslim immigration policies should be drastically revised and ammended.
I'm currently reading Simon Winder's eminently readable Danubia about the Habsburg history, and living in a country historically ravaged by the Ottoman wars, I can totally see where you are coming from. :(. But I will still strongly advice against this board going down in flames in political threads.
Quote from: The new erato on November 15, 2015, 12:55:33 AM
I'm currently reading Simon Winder's eminently readable Danubia about the Habsburg history, and living in a country historically ravaged by the Ottoman wars, I can totally see where you are coming from. :(. But I will still strongly advice against this board going down in flames in political threads.
You shouldn´t worry and neither should the mods. I said all I had to say and won´t go into, or start, any further polemics on the issue.
Quote from: Florestan on November 15, 2015, 01:09:46 AM
You shouldn´t worry and neither should the mods. I said all I had to say and won´t go into, or start, any further polemics on the issue.
As long as you don't bait others.....but I'm not a moderator, not my business to meddle.
I really find it ironic that many people apparently seriously belief that the main problem is that "the West" has been "too soft" on extremism (or "too soft" generally, usually preached by tenured professors and well off journalists who have known hardly any hardship (not to speak of combat action) in their lives).
Isn't the main problem that "the West" has helped destabilizing what little stability there was in the islamic world for many years now, playing favorites as long as some bastard was "our bastard", breeding a dozen potential terrorists for every one killed in a drone strike (and probably a hundred for every innocent child killed as collateral damage)? And sucking up to countries like Saudi Arabia or oligarchic Emirates all the time, letting weapons slip through (or selling them ourselves) to ISIS and related groups...
Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2015, 01:31:15 AM
Isn't the main problem that "the West" has helped destabilizing what little stability there was in the islamic world for many years now, playing favorites as long as some bastard was "our bastard", breeding a dozen potential terrorists for every one killed in a drone strike (and probably a hundred for every innocent child killed as collateral damage)? And sucking up to countries like Saudi Arabia or oligarchic Emirates all the time, letting weapons slip through (or selling them ourselves) to ISIS and related groups...
That is true. One of the
many "main" problems.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2015, 01:31:15 AM
I really find it ironic that many people apparently seriously belief that the main problem is that "the West" has been "too soft" on extremism (or "too soft" generally, usually preached by tenured professors and well off journalists who have known hardly any hardship (not to speak of combat action) in their lives).
Isn't the main problem that "the West" has helped destabilizing what little stability there was in the islamic world for many years now, playing favorites as long as some bastard was "our bastard", breeding a dozen potential terrorists for every one killed in a drone strike (and probably a hundred for every innocent child killed as collateral damage)? And sucking up to countries like Saudi Arabia or oligarchic Emirates all the time, letting weapons slip through (or selling them ourselves) to ISIS and related groups...
I quite agree. The decision to try to destabilise Assad's regime proves to be as disastrous as the "regime change" in Irak and Libya, where there is no central government control at all anymore.... Seems to be a very slow learning curbe here for Western (US) foreign policy makers...
Pampering Saudi Arabia, that has used its oil millions, made over our own backs, to spread its orthodox and intolerant version of Islam around the world for decades, was another fatal mistake. If George Bush wanted to deal with the causes of 9/11, why didn't he deal with his "allies" the Saudis (and Pakistan), instead of invading some random country that had no connection with the radicalisation of Islam? ::)
The worrying thing is that now ordinay Muslims that are living in Europe or the Syrians that are now seeking seeking refuge in Europe will serve as scape goats... Sure,
some of fhe 2nd generation Muslim immigrants that didn't succeed in European society and live a marginalised existence, are attracted to the "higher cause" of radical Islam, but the root of the problem lies elsewhere....
First priority should be restabalising the Middle East and dealing with the sources of radical Islam. In the meantime we will have to ride this one out, I'm afraid..terrorist groups once established don't die out over night, as past European experiences with Rote Armee Fraktion, IRA or ETA have shown...
Q
Saudi-Arabia is the elephant in the room that everybody is trying to disregard......
The problem is that the west is being too soft at home. While western armies roam in the world, here we have elevated "feelings" above truth and we are too busy creating "safe spaces" for those who want to find refuge from reality. The Muslims have faced western iron in their own homes, against which they are powerless, but they figured out they can easily topple us in our own countries and that's what they are going to do.
I don't think i have to point out to a certain similar historical situation, do i?
Sadly I wasn't even surprised by these horrible events in Paris. There is so much negative power in the world these days. We live in the era of turf wars. I know I sound cynical, but it's not my fault the reality made me a cynic. Back in the 80's and 90's I used to think the 21st century would be build on reason, knowledge and humanism. I was so wrong.
Quote from: Purusha on November 15, 2015, 03:10:59 AM
The problem is that the west is being too soft at home. While western armies roam in the world, here we have elevated "feelings" above truth and we are too busy creating "safe spaces" for those who want to find refuge from reality. The Muslims have faced western iron in their own homes, against which they are powerless, but they figured out they can easily topple us in our own countries and that's what they are going to do.
I think this is simply wrong. There are bombings because such terrorism is the last resort of those who are military and economically weak. If the nonsensical fantasies about "Eurabia" and "Submission" were right, no bombing would be necessary. And it's also fairly obvious that bombings and shooting do not help with the fantasized slow "islamization" of Europe. Quite the opposite.
Or what do you expect to result from the bombings? That we become more tolerant to extremist muslims in the hope there will no more bombings? This is obviously futile as among the different sects and fractions in the near/middle East there will always be one more radical. So if there was appeasement to some group, some opponent group would probably have a *new* reason for terrorist attacks.
Believe what you will, but the barbarians are definitely at the gate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwDRoOXqDRc
Goodbye Europa, and thanks for all the fish.
Isn't it strange then, that they consider us the barbarians?
In summary, the West: "Let's stir up a hornet's nest and then keep our doors open for them to fly into our houses."
Smart plan. Wish I were genius like that.
Quote from: The new erato on November 15, 2015, 06:39:13 AM
Isn't it strange then, that they consider us the barbarians?
Yes, let's burn western civilization to the ground at the altar of white guilt. Will someone
please cut our throats. We deserve nothing better.
Quote from: Purusha on November 15, 2015, 06:44:19 AM
Yes, let's burn western civilization to the ground at the altar of white guild. Will someone please cut our throats. We deserve nothing better.
I assume you mean guilt, great sage.
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/food/ic/food_16x9_608/foods/s/sage_16x9.jpg)
Quote from: Purusha on November 15, 2015, 06:44:19 AM
Yes, let's burn western civilization to the ground at the altar of white guild. Will someone please cut our throats. We deserve nothing better.
Just pointing out a bit of irony here.
A French official just announced that at least one of the suicide-bombers entered Europe among a large group of Syrian refugees. That, no doubt, will fan the flames of anti-immigration sentiment.
Why did the attackers choose a Death Metal concert? Do they have an especially sick sense of humor to match their politics?
So when is the PC police who with the slogan "Teach Men not to Rape" going to have a hastag "#TeachMuslimsNottoTerrorize"
;D
Oh, and while I'm at it. When are the gun owners who say all Muslims are evil going to stop saying, "Oh, but not everyone who has a gun is a bad guy."
Just more and more makes hate this world. Being alone, away from people and social interaction is so underrated.
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on November 15, 2015, 06:57:51 AM
A French official just announced that at least one of the suicide-bombers entered Europe among a large group of Syrian refugees. That, no doubt, will fan the flames of anti-immigration sentiment.
Sadly. That's what you get for helping those in the Middle East. :'(
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on November 15, 2015, 06:57:51 AM
Why did the attackers choose a Death Metal concert? Do they have an especially sick sense of humor to match their politics?
It's actually not a death metal band, but I wouldn't be surprised if they thought it was.
If it is snark that you are seeking, snark you shall have:
(http://41.media.tumblr.com/5ea5f77ec9b84381d47e98957406c2ba/tumblr_nxt0k2cp9M1u1vptio1_500.jpg)
Quote from: Greg on November 15, 2015, 07:13:18 AMIt's actually not a death metal band, but I wouldn't be surprised if they thought it was.
I'm pretty sure they targeted the place to score the highest number of victims, and not because they didn't like the music. But i could be wrong. Far from me to guess the motives of a mass murdering suicide terrorist.
Quote from: Greg on November 15, 2015, 07:13:18 AM
It's actually not a death metal band, but I wouldn't be surprised if they thought it was.
- Quite so, thanks!
Also, this interesting info. from Wiki : "The Bataclan has been the subject of numerous threats for years because it was owned by Jews for decades (until September, 2015) and often held pro-Israel events, including celebrations for the Israel Border Police."
Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2015, 01:31:15 AM
Isn't the main problem that "the West" has helped destabilizing what little stability there was in the islamic world for many years now, playing favorites as long as some bastard was "our bastard", breeding a dozen potential terrorists for every one killed in a drone strike (and probably a hundred for every innocent child killed as collateral damage)?
Absolutely right. Overthrowing Qaddafi doesn't look so smart now, does it? And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on November 15, 2015, 06:57:51 AM
A French official just announced that at least one of the suicide-bombers entered Europe among a large group of Syrian refugees. That, no doubt, will fan the flames of anti-immigration sentiment.
Anyone who was not completely obtuse could have seen this coming. ISIS was even boasting a while back about how many jihadists it was introducing into Europe among the "refugees." Unfortunately, the people in charge of Europe seem to be completely clueless, and have failed in their first duty, protecting their own citizens.
Quote from: The new erato on November 15, 2015, 12:49:30 AM
Perhaps because there are so many forums to discuss this, and because we don't want this forum to implode like so many other forums have? Of course I have strong feelings about this, but I will keep the to meyself here and focus of music, which is a great equalizer over many other differences.
I very much agree with this. It is difficult to know what to say - words seem inadequate.
Do you really think that people who have the determination and organisation to carry out five or more coordinated suicidal attacks care whether it's easy to enter a country? They did not need a refugee crisis for 9/11, London or Madrid.
And don't forget that the "normal" refugees are fleeing from ISIS. Determined criminals and fanatics will find a way to carry out such attacks unless we introduce iron curtains and an even stronger surveillance state. Would that be to defend "European values" or rather give in to terror? I certainly expect that surveillance will become more strict and borders will not remain open like they used to be. But this will only slow down those with suicidal determination.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2015, 09:12:12 AM
They did not need a refugee crisis for 9/11, London or Madrid.
Don't know about London and Madrid, but 9/11 was able to happen because of criminally lax immigration enforcement. The Saudi hijackers didn't even bother to fill out their visa forms properly; they were just waved into the country.
However, preventing terrorism in the USA is a lot easier than in Europe, due to having oceans on two sides and non-threatening neighbors on the others. Europe has the disadvantage of being a lot closer to the conflict zone.
Quote from: The new erato on November 15, 2015, 12:49:30 AM
Perhaps because there are so many forums to discuss this, and because we don't want this forum to implode like so many other forums have? Of course I have strong feelings about this, but I will keep the to meyself here and focus of music, which is a great equalizer over many other differences.
Not that I'm against people discussing here whatever they want, but I couldn't express myself better that what new erato said. Wise words.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on November 15, 2015, 09:21:32 AM
Don't know about London and Madrid, but 9/11 was able to happen because of criminally lax immigration enforcement. The Saudi hijackers didn't even bother to fill out their visa forms properly; they were just waved into the country.
However, preventing terrorism in the USA is a lot easier than in Europe, due to having oceans on two sides and non-threatening neighbors on the others. Europe has the disadvantage of being a lot closer to the conflict zone.
Donald Trump might take exception to that. I mean, everyone knows those Mexicans want California and Texas back.
There is one thing Europe has that the US does not: a large, European born, often disaffected Muslim underclass who are economically similar to the minority underclass here in the US: poor and often dependent on government services, above normal crime rates, deep distrust of police and other representatives of the state, living in slum areas, often under the influence of conservative religious figures who are deeply antiWestern even if they live in the West and enjoy its freedoms. Anyone from that segment who turns to jihadism--and there are already a number of known instances--does not need to worry about border controls.
They've been there since birth.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/s2eidd.jpg)
It is now reported that the passports were forgeries.
Islamophobic attack in Brittany today
http://www.islametinfo.fr/2015/11/15/bretagne-une-manifestation-degenere-un-passant-maghrebin-est-frappe-violemment/
Adsav is a Brittany secessionist party, extreme but as far as I know not extreme right wing. I am relieved we haven't seen more incidents like this so far.
And the leader of the French Republican Party was quick to demand major changes to François Holland's security policy today.
http://www.lesechos.fr/politique-societe/politique/021478790938-politique-de-securite-sarkozy-demande-des-modifications-drastiques-a-hollande-1175225.php
The French news is full of discussion about how attitudes have changed since the attacks in January.
So far, as far as I know, no slogan has emerged with the unifying power of Je suis Charlie.
Quote from: Mandryka on November 15, 2015, 12:51:46 PMSo far, as far as I know, no slogan has emerged with the unifying power of Je suis Charlie.
Well, you can put a transparent French flag on your Facebook profile picture. Not as grand as the Je suis Charlie slogan, but equally ineffective.
The fact is that France and Europe are endangered. People who don't live here can't understand, and all those who say the contrary are dangerous ideologists.
For decades our continent has been methodically occupied by foreigners who have no intention to adapt but want to transform Europe into a Muslim and predominantly Arab zone.
The recent attacks (I'm thinking about this weekend but also last january, or attacks in the recent years) are a demonstration of their capacity to do whatever they want to show they are the new masters while forbidding the others to simply protest. Today a white life in Europe is worth nothing if a Muslim wants to kill him. And besides terrorist attacks such events are daily (white people attacked and killed in the metro, in the banlieues, every day, just because they are white).
The system of "justice" has been put at the service of these people. They don't pay for their crimes and even when they go to prison they are put in the best conditions, with freedom to pray their god and become even more fanatic that they were. It is no wonder that some terrorists were converted or radicalized in prison.
There are two possible outcomes now. The first one becomes more and more probable every day : that Europe will soon be dominated by Islamism and submitted to shariah, and that white people will be slaves. In ten, twenty years this will be Europe if nothing is done today. The other outcome would be for European to rise again Muslims who are here for their war against us, to close all mosques, to gather them and send them (ALL of them) back to their countries of origin, where they came from (them or their parents). And to forbid more muslims to come and invade us, as more and more of them do every year, every month.
Europe has to proclaim officially that it is an essentially Christian zone, because this is our culture, our history, our common identity. Saving European culture, including the arts, including classical music, including literature (all things Muslims want to burn and destroy) also means defending our religion against its enemies, against Islam and its accomplices (I'm thinking about pro-muslim atheists). Thank god there are places like this board to still defend Western culture (wich essentially means historically European culture), but these are the last true places of freedom, where we are not first forced to bow in front of Allah and of his soldiers.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 15, 2015, 09:12:12 AM
And don't forget that the "normal" refugees are fleeing from ISIS.
Well, here are some facts that are brushed under carpet, or completely ignored, when it comes to discussing the issue.
Fact no.1: ISIS has a special border control unit whose mission is exactly to prevent anyone from fleeing. The punishment for anyone caught fleeing is crucifixion. Nobody gets in and out of ISIS-controlled territory without ISIS´ approval. Okay, maybe isolated groups of several persons could do it, but it is unthinkable that hundreds or even thousands of people escape en masse from ISIS-controlled territory.
Fact no. 2: ISIS-controlled territory has been
shrinking this year. They suffered some serious blows especially from the Kurdish
Peshmerga militias (these are the most courageous, determined and effective forces fighting ISIS although their weaponry is outdated while ISIS´ is almost brand new). On the ground, ISIS is actually on retreat.
Fact no. 4: There are three main groups of people who fled from ISIS en masse
before ISIS got hold of their home land: Shia Muslims, Yazidis and Christians (this is the explanation of the fact that not a single one of the rich Sunni gulf states helped them or received them as refugees). All those people ended up in refugee camps in Turkey, which country pleeded for a long time for financial and material help from the EU in this respect, but to no avail.
Fact no. 5: The Turkish and Albanese mafia charge up to 10,000 Euros
per person for getting one and one´s family to Europe. It is equally unthinkable that thousands of those poor and desperate people, who oftenly fled only with what little they could carry in a handbag, could pay such fabulous amounts of money.
Fact no. 6: At some point during the conflict, the Syrian and Iranian regimes in a concerted and deliberate action set free thousands of people who were serving terms in their jails for different crimes, among them terrorism and sedition. Most of them joined ISIS.
Fact no. 7: The majority of the refugees coming to Europe are males.
Let anyone do the math and draw one´s conclusions.
The only solution is to double our efforts to bring in even more "refugees". Isn't this how it works?
Meanwhile, campuses all over America are marching in protest against the imaginary oppression of privileged, cobbled crybabies, while the push for normalizing pedophilia is already starting.
The west is dead. Gone. Done for. It has ceased to be. It is no more. It has expired and gone to meet its maker.
Quote from: Florestan on November 16, 2015, 03:05:10 AMLet anyone do the math and draw one´s conclusions.
You can run from ISIS before they get to your territory, y'know? And paying the family fortune to get the hell out of there is commonplace. That's why the refugees end up at the European borders without a dime to go any further, while well-funded individual terrorists have much easier and safer means to get over here.
Anyway, what you've provided are not facts 'brushed under the carpet', but simplifications and, in the case of "the majority being male", lies. If you don't believe in statistics (http://www.factcheck.org/2015/09/stretching-facts-on-syrian-refugees/), take a trip to the borders of Hungary, Croatia or Serbia, it is quite eye opening. The experiences of the amazing European volunteers who prevented a much larger humanitarian catastrophe, while their governments haggled over quotas, obliterate all the hoaxes and clichés (for example, many journalists were questioning the abundance of smartphones the Syrian refugees have, because people simply didn't realize that owning a smartphone is nothing special in Syria - and it's one of the best tools you can bring along on a trip like that) that are thrown around by hatemongers and outright xenophobes.
I'm not implying you belong to one of those despicable groups, but your 'math' doesn't align with reality.
Don't pay attention to "facts" or "statistics". What matters is experiences. Check your logic and reason at the door, and simply listen and believe.
Of course, if those "experiences" happen to contradict a certain narrative, they ought to be suppressed:
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/06/no-borders-activist-gang-raped-migrants-pressured-silence-not-damage-cause/
All those pathetic lowlife terrorists want is fear, chaos and war, because they do not know anything else. We win by taking those things away from them, not by giving them more of that.
They want much more than that. ISIS is an organized, terrorist "state" that wants to conquer territory and set up an extreme Islamist caliphate. They want REVENGE for any attacks on them - the killings in Paris were just that. "Sowing fear" is really not their intent. We're talking about a criminal organization that is well-funded and lead by people that are literally mentally disturbed.
They will have to be stopped with military force. There won't be any reasoning with them.
Quote from: Scion7 on November 16, 2015, 06:56:15 AM
We're talking about a criminal organization that is well-funded
BTW: which European country had this year alone commercial exchanges billions of Euros worth with Saudi Arabia, the main sponsor of ISIS and of islamic terrorism in general? Hint: the same country which conducted in Yemen joint military operations with the Saudi army. More hint: its flag is blue-white-red.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 03:37:10 AM
The only solution is to double our efforts to bring in even more "refugees". Isn't this how it works?
Meanwhile, campuses all over America are marching in protest against the imaginary oppression of privileged, cobbled crybabies, while the push for normalizing pedophilia is already starting.
The west is dead. Gone. Done for. It has ceased to be. It is no more. It has expired and gone to meet its maker.
What the hell are you talking about? Did someone hit you in the head? ???
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2015, 12:08:43 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Did someone hit you in the head? ???
8)
He's talking about Italy.
Quote from: The new erato on November 16, 2015, 12:16:52 PM
He's talking about Italy.
No, I meant this:
QuoteMeanwhile, campuses all over America are marching in protest against the imaginary oppression of privileged, cobbled crybabies, while the push for normalizing pedophilia is already starting.
Even I, who deplore whiny crybabies, don't see
this as realistic! ::)
8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2015, 12:34:42 PM
No, I meant this:
Even I, who deplore whiny crybabies, don't see this as realistic! ::)
8)
This is my mental image of Purusha:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2012/8/31/1346398263558/Clint-Eastwood-speaks-to--011.jpg)
Side note, of Purusha's last 100 posts, 95 are in The Diner and only 1 is a productive (non-antagonistic) post about classical or jazz music.
Quote from: Tannhaüser on November 16, 2015, 12:00:42 AMall those who say the contrary are dangerous ideologists.
That is classic.
Quote from: Tannhaüser on November 16, 2015, 12:00:42 AMEurope has to proclaim officially that it is an essentially Christian zone, because this is our culture, our history, our common identity. Saving European culture, including the arts, including classical music, including literature (all things Muslims want to burn and destroy) also means defending our religion against its enemies, against Islam and its accomplices (I'm thinking about pro-muslim atheists). Thank god there are places like this board to still defend Western culture (wich essentially means historically European culture), but these are the last true places of freedom, where we are not first forced to bow in front of Allah and of his soldiers.
Really? Muslims want that, all of them? I suppose you haven't considered that encouraging this mindless hatred of people solely because of their race and creed might lead to a larger percentage of Muslims being attracted by the terrorists' propaganda painting the West as an enemy which must be fought against. And if you honestly think that all Muslims want to destroy arts, classical music and literature, then I suppose you think the archaeologist
Khaled al-Asaad was not a Muslim, nor was
Rumi, the Persian 13th c. poet who has been among the most popular poets in the US for decades, or
Ferdowsi the author the
Shahnameh - or any number of Muslim scholars who saved and studied the literature of the Antique when much of it was lost in the post-Roman Empire Europe.
But hey, I am just the dangerous ideologist who doesn't think a war between Christians and Muslims, and their atheist supporters, would be a good idea.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/01/02/why-dont-more-moderate-muslims-denounce-extremism/
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 12:49:55 PM
Side note, of Purusha's last 100 posts, 95 are in The Diner and only 1 is a productive (non-antagonistic) post about classical or jazz music.
I think Purusha thinks it is imperative that that kind of people are shipped back to where they came from if we are to try to make the West's decline at least a bit slower. 8)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2015, 12:08:43 PM
What the hell are you talking about? Did someone hit you in the head? ???
8)
Been out of the loop lately? Unaware of what's going on in university campuses?
(https://grrrgraphics.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/crybullies_ben_garrison.jpg?w=640&h=475)
Step aside Paris, we have
real oppression to worry about:
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/11/14/mizzou-campus-activists-and-black-lives-matter-complain-about-paris-stealing-the-spotlight/
And won't we think of the pedophiles?
http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/im_a_pedophile_but_not_a_monster/
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 12:49:55 PM
Side note, of Purusha's last 100 posts, 95 are in The Diner and only 1 is a productive (non-antagonistic) post about classical or jazz music.
Yes, this member seems hellbent on just making posts that are to provoke animosity and, in almost all cases, it's animosity for it's own sake.
Thread duty:
I have no bone to pick with anyone here about politics or religion as these kinds of discussions so often leave people with a bad taste in their mouths but what happened in Paris is a tragedy and everything should be done to stop such an attack from happening again. These enemies simply need to be hunted down and brought to justice.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 12:55:56 PM
Been out of the loop lately? Unaware of what's going on in university campuses?
(https://grrrgraphics.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/crybullies_ben_garrison.jpg?w=640&h=475)
Step aside Paris, we have real oppression to worry about:
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/11/14/mizzou-campus-activists-and-black-lives-matter-complain-about-paris-stealing-the-spotlight/
And won't we think of the pedophiles?
http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/im_a_pedophile_but_not_a_monster/
1% of college students and one misbegotten wienie waver don't constitute a trend. If being in touch with what goes on in the playgrounds known as college campuses constitutes 'being in the loop', then no, I prefer to wait for the adults to emerge from the chrysalis.
You are getting bold enough to risk exposure, Opie. You never could learn to keep your head down. Pity...
8)
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2015, 12:53:07 PMnor was Rumi, the Persian 13th c. poet who has been among the most popular poets in the US for decades
Mostly read by people who don't understand a single word of his works.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 12:55:56 PM
Step aside Paris, we have real oppression to worry about:
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/11/14/mizzou-campus-activists-and-black-lives-matter-complain-about-paris-stealing-the-spotlight/
Wait, so your idea of "privileged, cobbled crybabies" is a racial minority complaining about racism?
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2015, 01:00:04 PM
1% of college students and one misbegotten wienie waver don't constitute a trend.
Same way a few dead Frenchmen and a bunch of rapes don't constitute a trend.
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2015, 01:00:04 PMI prefer to wait for the adults to emerge from the chrysalis.
The children are actually bullying the adults:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IEFD_JVYd0
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 01:03:41 PM
Wait, so your idea of "privileged, cobbled crybabies" is a racial minority complaining about racism?
About racism that exists only in their heads, by rich kids attending a prestigious university who have never experienced a single ounce of hardship in their entire existence.
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 12:49:55 PM
Side note, of Purusha's last 100 posts, 95 are in The Diner and only 1 is a productive (non-antagonistic) post about classical or jazz music.
Perhaps he's thought it meet to put an antic disposition on.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
About racism that exists only in their heads, by rich kids attending a prestigious university who have never experienced a single ounce of hardship in their entire existence.
1. Somebody smeared a swastika on the wall using shit.
2. How do you know they're rich? In the USA, black people attending public schools are usually not rich.
3. ...and they've usually experienced a lot of hardship and racism.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on November 16, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
Perhaps he's thought it meet to put an antic disposition on.
I'm not sure he knows a hawk from a handsaw.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 01:12:34 PM
About racism that exists only in their heads, by rich kids attending a prestigious university who have never experienced a single ounce of hardship in their entire existence.
University of Missouri may be nice as can be, but it is a simple state university. The state where there has been significant racial violence in recent times which actually
was quite well justified. Perhaps that tends to make people a bit quicker to react. Anyway, we all know the end is near, nearer for some, perhaps...
8)
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2015, 12:53:07 PMI think Purusha thinks it is imperative that that kind of people are shipped back to where they came from if we are to try to make the West's decline at least a bit slower.
No no, what we should do is bomb their countries even more and than open our borders even wider.
Careful folks. I don't want to lock this thread and some may feel the suggestion to be premature, but this is an incendary topic and the one or two who seem to like to needle others will end up leaving gaps rather than opinions.
An important topic, so I ask that we take care with one another.
Knight
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 01:21:18 PM
I'm not sure he knows a hawk from a handsaw.
Or we are seeing the reincarnation of Josquin des Prez.
Yes, forsooth, I will hold my tongue; so your face bids me, though you say nothing. Mum, mum.
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 01:20:48 PM
1. Somebody smeared a swastika on the wall using shit.
2. How do you know they're rich? In the USA, black people attending public schools are usually not rich.
3. ...and they've usually experienced a lot of hardship and racism.
1) So? Obviously a prank or an hoax to any rational person. The Yale story was even worse, since the issue was a professor disagreeing that there was anything "racist" or "problematic" about Halloween costumes. This is obviously much more important than hundreds of people getting mowed down by terrorists.
2) Yale is not a public school, nor it is Mizzou. And the screeching little snowflakes actually come from privileged families:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/09/meet-the-privileged-yale-student-who-shrieked-at-her-professor/
3) Bullshit.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 01:28:00 PM
2) Yale is not a public school, nor it is Mizzou. And the screeching little snowflakes actually come from privileged families:
You linked to an article about Mizzou, not Yale. Mizzou is a public school. You were wrong.
As for the topic of racism in the central USA, you know nothing and are unqualified to speak.
Quote from: Brian on November 16, 2015, 01:44:48 PMAs for the topic of racism in the central USA, you know nothing and are unqualified to speak.
Depends on what you mean by "qualified". Political correctness is your religion, not mine. What matters to me is the actual reality of things, not the dogma. And i find there is a certain dint of irony in the fact it is liberal professors those protesters are after, the very people who inculcated those kids with this idiotic world view.
But to return to the topic at hand, i'd like to address one particular point:
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2015, 12:53:07 PMReally? Muslims want that, all of them? I suppose you haven't considered that encouraging this mindless hatred of people solely because of their race and creed might lead to a larger percentage of Muslims being attracted by the terrorists' propaganda painting the West as an enemy which must be fought against.
Except modern Islam is essentially an hardened, right-wing reaction to the "liberal" West. It is not so much the bombs that Muslims hate, but western "values" specifically, or rather, a specific set of western values. Namely,
your values. The Muslims hate the West for the same exact reason people like me hate the West (or the modern West rather). They hate the West because it is anti-traditional. They hate the West for its secularism. They also hate the West because of Caitlyn Jenner.
The West they did
not hate is the West i like. The West of Plato and Aristotle. The West of Charlemagne. See the pattern here? Of course, it would be a mistake to assume the Muslims were "multicultural". They weren't. They believed in the superiority of their ways and their beliefs. So did the Christian West believe in the superiority of its own beliefs and its own ways. But despite being different and exclusive, both civilizations felt a certain kinship with one another, and there was a certain reciprocal respect, even when the one met the other in the battlefield.
What we have now is one deranged civilization imposing itself upon foreign cultures. Some react by becoming themselves deranged. Others go the opposite way, by becoming more tribalistic and right-wing, and Islam is now the most tribalistic and right-wing culture of all. By opening its borders to Islam, the West has signed its own death warrant because two entities which are completely opposite of one another cannot coexist side by side. One is bound to obliterate the other eventually, and i think Islam is better equipped for survival, especially in a war of attrition fought in terms of demographics rather than open arms.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2015, 12:56:06 PMYes, this member seems hellbent on just making posts that are to provoke animosity and, in almost all cases, it's animosity for it's own sake.
I confess that i derive a certain amount of entertainment from this. But mostly it is because i hate this vapid, bourgeois environment the modern West likes to impose everywhere, an environment that is highly cultured and possibly even cerebral, but not particularly intelligent and mostly devoid of anything related to meaning and realization of any kind. Like David Bentley Hart mentioned in one of his books (forgot which), the sickness of the West is partly due the metaphysical poverty of this industrial and consumerist society we have created for ourselves, which breeds nothing but apathy and boredom.
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 03:13:35 PM
I confess that i derive a certain amount of entertainment from this. But mostly it is because i hate this vapid, bourgeois environment the modern West likes to impose everywhere, an environment that is highly cultured and possibly even cerebral, but not particularly intelligent and mostly devoid of anything related to meaning and realization of any kind. Like David Bentley Hart mentioned in one of his books (forgot which), the sickness of the West is partly due the metaphysical poverty of this industrial and consumerist society we have created for ourselves, which breeds nothing but apathy and boredom.
Well...that's nice, but the question is do you have
anything to offer this forum in the way of music and the recommendation of such music? Because, if you don't, then you'll continue to just blow smoke IMHO. Everything you stated above I'm sure makes you quite the hit at dinner parties. ::) Remind me to sit nowhere near you as you come across as one of those self-righteous lunatics who live in a bubble while the rest of the world goes about their day.
Lighten up, folks. Yes, even you, Purusha, you crazy diamond combo of a doomsday preacher and a shmup aficionado. This one's an instant classic:
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2heyfr5.jpg)
And I think we can all agree on John Oliver's take on the Paris tragedy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glxh9ZgP7kc).
Quote from: Purusha on November 16, 2015, 02:57:22 PM
Depends on what you mean by "qualified". Political correctness is your religion, not mine. What matters to me is the actual reality of things, not the dogma. And i find there is a certain dint of irony in the fact it is liberal professors those protesters are after, the very people who inculcated those kids with this idiotic world view.
But to return to the topic at hand, i'd like to address one particular point:
Except modern Islam is essentially an hardened, right-wing reaction to the "liberal" West. It is not so much the bombs that Muslims hate, but western "values" specifically, or rather, a specific set of western values. Namely, your values. The Muslims hate the West for the same exact reason people like me hate the West (or the modern West rather). They hate the West because it is anti-traditional. They hate the West for its secularism. They also hate the West because of Caitlyn Jenner.
The West they did not hate is the West i like. The West of Plato and Aristotle. The West of Charlemagne. See the pattern here? Of course, it would be a mistake to assume the Muslims were "multicultural". They weren't. They believed in the superiority of their ways and their beliefs. So did the Christian West believe in the superiority of its own beliefs and its own ways. But despite being different and exclusive, both civilizations felt a certain kinship with one another, and there was a certain reciprocal respect, even when the one met the other in the battlefield.
What we have now is one deranged civilization imposing itself upon foreign cultures. Some react by becoming themselves deranged. Others go the opposite way, by becoming more tribalistic and right-wing, and Islam is now the most tribalistic and right-wing culture of all. By opening its borders to Islam, the West has signed its own death warrant because two entities which are completely opposite of one another cannot coexist side by side. One is bound to obliterate the other eventually, and i think Islam is better equipped for survival, especially in a war of attrition fought in terms of demographics rather than open arms.
It sounds to me like you would make a very good jihadi.
Purusha is the logical end point of capitalism. His existence is the triumph of capital over creativity; he has no reason to exist beyond adding a simulacrum of novelty to a declining commodity. He is the committee designed end point of a society alienated from the ideas of joy and innovation. To behave as Purusha does i is the ultimate act of false consciousness; you may tell yourself you can engineer some kind of enjoyment when in reality this cynically designed character is playing you.
Quote from: North Star on November 16, 2015, 12:53:07 PM
That is classic.
Really? Muslims want that, all of them? I suppose you haven't considered that encouraging this mindless hatred of people solely because of their race and creed might lead to a larger percentage of Muslims being attracted by the terrorists' propaganda painting the West as an enemy which must be fought against. And if you honestly think that all Muslims want to destroy arts, classical music and literature, then I suppose you think the archaeologist Khaled al-Asaad was not a Muslim, nor was Rumi, the Persian 13th c. poet who has been among the most popular poets in the US for decades, or Ferdowsi the author the Shahnameh - or any number of Muslim scholars who saved and studied the literature of the Antique when much of it was lost in the post-Roman Empire Europe.
But hey, I am just the dangerous ideologist who doesn't think a war between Christians and Muslims, and their atheist supporters, would be a good idea.
Well... What did I say ? Either a dangerous ideologist... or simply someone who doesn't know anything about the situation. Sorry, but Kuopio, Finland doesn't sound like a place colonized by Muslims like Paris has been for decades. It's easy to give lessons to others when you are actually not at risk at all where you are...
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2015, 12:56:06 PM
I have no bone to pick with anyone here about politics or religion as these kinds of discussions so often leave people with a bad taste in their mouths but what happened in Paris is a tragedy and everything should be done to stop such an attack from happening again. These enemies simply need to be hunted down and brought to justice.
Exactly, its the important thing to say and remember here. Hunted down. Brought to justice if possible, eliminated in any case. And these enemies are millions.
Quote from: Mirror Image on November 16, 2015, 12:56:06 PM
everything should be done to stop such an attack from happening again.
Everything? Like for instance what?
Suppose that ISIS is militarily annihilated on the ground (which, if all
sincerely interested parties agreed, could be done in less than a week). Suppose a political agreement is reached in, and over, Syria, and a peaceful process of reconstruction begins (a highly unlikely possibility, that one).
Will there not be in Europe any more mosques fullpacked with radical imams and their brainwashed, fanaticized followers? Will the 751 (seven hundred fifty-one, in case you think it is a typo)
zones urbaines sensibles (a typically French euphemism for no-go zones where weapon & drug trafficking and radical islamic propaganda are the only daily business and sharia is the only law) disappear, together with all similar zones in England, Belgium, Sweden or wherever they are? Will there not be somwhere a new group in the making, even more radical than ISIS, bent on, and vowing, revenge?
No doubt, determined and effective military action, wherever and whenever needed, is part of the solution, but with respect to the political (that is, ideological) part, the only strategy the European leaders have applied for decades was the ostrich´s stategy: the deeper one burries one´s head in the sand, the more chances of survival one has.
Just FYI and as a supplement to Florestan's post, this video that represents only the daily speech in most of the hundreds of mosques in France.
http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/viral-imam-video-music-is-a-creature-of-the-devil/
But aren't the reasons for that situation rather failed (post)colonial policy, basically the inheritance from a time when
the "West" was directly dominating lots of Muslim countries, and poor urban policies of the last 4 or 5 decades?
I simply don't buy the facile suggestion that those problems could be blamed on recent immigration or "softness on crime". I'd guess that they are based to 60% on failed local/domestic policies (as has been pointed out, Britain, Germany, Belgium and France are actually *exporting" hundreds of European born extremist fighters to the middle eastern war zones!), 30% on failed foreign policies (messing up the near/middle East while cuddling with the Saudis) and maybe 10% "multiculturalist softness".
And do not tell me that the latter is mainly responsible for the former 90% of failed policies. (I actually think that the "multiculturalism" is mostly a right-wing strawman with little impact in practice).
It's a failure of the West, sure. But in a very different way from the strawmen suggested by conservatives.
(I don't know how "soft" the French judicial system is. As someone pointed out elswhere, although with 150 victims from last Friday and Charlie Hebdo the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants in Paris is probably doubled compared to an "average year" it is still fairly low, compared to e.g. Baltimore... So a "tough" policy vs. crime like in the US is not really a panacea either.)
Quote from: Jo498 on November 17, 2015, 12:38:49 AM
I don't know how "soft" the French judicial system is.
The Paris
Procureur de la Republique already answered this question: the French-born identified terrorist was convicted 8 (eight) times but never went to jail. And problem is that even if he had gone, chances are high that there he would have been just as indoctrinated as he was at large.
Quote from: Tannhäuser on November 17, 2015, 12:14:03 AM
Just FYI and as a supplement to Florestan's post, this video that represents only the daily speech in most of the hundreds of mosques in France.
http://slippedisc.com/2015/11/viral-imam-video-music-is-a-creature-of-the-devil/
This man should immediately and irrevocably be deported in his native country if he is an immigrant. If he is French-born, his citizenship should immediately and irrevocably be retired from him (president Hollande himself suggested as much in his yesterday speech before L´Assemblee Nationale) and he should be asked to leave the country in 24 hours or else face imprisonment. Enough is enough, for God´s sake! Whenever I see free speach and human rights and frreedoms invoked for the protection of those whose goal is precisely to strangle them I am reminded of Lenin´s dictum:
The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them, only in this case we don´t even sell, we offer free of charge...
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 12:54:09 AM
. If he is French-born, his citizenship should immediately and irrevocably be retired from him (president Hollande himself suggested as much in his yesterday speech before L´Assemblee Nationale) and he should be asked to leave the country in 24 hours
Good luck in finding a country that will acept a man with no citizenship or passport without a need for asylum.......
Quote from: Jo498 on November 17, 2015, 12:38:49 AMBut aren't the reasons for that situation rather failed (post)colonial policy, basically the inheritance from a time when the "West" was directly dominating lots of Muslim countries, and poor urban policies of the last 4 or 5 decades?
Same way Israel is responsible for their own problems. Notice of course that Israel does not allow for an open border society, because that would be total suicide for them. What makes you think the rest of the West is different from the position Israel finds itself in at the moment?
Either way, you seem to be missing the point by a mile. The issue is not that the West is being "too soft" with extremists (if anything it is the other way around. French is now dropping bombs like they are going out of style). The problem is that the West has abdicated any right to have a cultural and ethnic identity of its own. Islam belongs to a completely different world. They are never, ever going to "integrate" with a culture that would rather die than assert itself. If it wasn't for the technological superiority of the West they would have already conquered us fair and square. And why shouldn't they? What possible reason do they have to value the West? Everything we do is an affront to their values and beliefs. You really think opening our arms and showering them with kisses and smooches is going to appease not only their resentment against us but also their distaste for a culture which according to their belief system is evil to the core? Or that it is going to overcome the fact for them it is us who is "the other", just in case anyone as forgotten that other races are just as capable of racism and "xenophobia"?
Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2015, 12:59:11 AM
Good luck in finding a country that will acept a man with no citizenship or passport without a need for asylum.......
Why, he can apply for asylum in Saudi Arabia, Qatar or Pakistan as he is a victim of Western persecution. Good riddance and don´t write back.
Quote from: The Six on November 16, 2015, 09:30:41 PM
Purusha is the logical end point of capitalism. His existence is the triumph of capital over creativity; he has no reason to exist beyond adding a simulacrum of novelty to a declining commodity. He is the committee designed end point of a society alienated from the ideas of joy and innovation. To behave as Purusha does i is the ultimate act of false consciousness; you may tell yourself you can engineer some kind of enjoyment when in reality this cynically designed character is playing you.
I'm not even sure how that argument follows. I don't even like capitalism (though i consider it to be a much better alternative than communism).
But since we are now playing that game, let's talk about the logical end point of multiculturalism, and the triumph of creativity over reality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
For those who don't understand why i keep bringing this up, know that the "scandal" here is not so much that there were Muslim groomers raping children, but that the police did nothing for fear of being labeled "racist". This open border mentality stems from the same disease.
Yes, I seem to remember something about Italy being a hodgepodge of Piemontesians, Savoyans, Austrians, Normans, Spanish, Venetians, Neapolitans and whatever, each speaking their own language. Shows what a disaster such multicultural societies can become.
Yeah, the history of Europe certainly proves that multiculturalism works wonders. Centuries of infighting and constant and relentless bloodshed. And right when one thought the ordeal was over, we are now starting from scratch by importing a people that is more alien than anyone that has ever lived in Europe. Why? Reasons.
Quote from: Purusha on November 17, 2015, 01:00:18 AM
The problem is that the West has abdicated any right to have a cultural and ethnic identity of its own. Islam belongs to a completely different world. They are never, ever going to "integrate" with a culture that would rather die than assert itself. If it wasn't for the technological superiority of the West they would have already conquered us fair and square. And why shouldn't they? What possible reason do they have to value the West? Everything we do is an affront to their values and beliefs.
I thought we did not have a cultural identity of our own anymore?
Clearly, not both of the following claims can be true: (1) The West has abdicated and dissolved in multiculturalism and (2) The West is proposing a set of values that are abhorrent to islamists.
If (2) is true, than the Western values, decadent, effete and abhorrent as they might be, are apparently still held strong and assertive enough to serve as a provocation, both for traditionalists like you and e.g. islamic terrorists.
If (1) was true, why bother with sacrificing young people as suicidal bombers, as "Eurabia" would only be a couple of decades away.
Simple question: do you believe Caitlyn Jenner is a woman? Do you believe homosexuality is perfectly natural and normal?
Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2015, 01:34:54 AM
Yes, I seem to remember something about Italy being a hodgepodge of Piemontesians, Savoyans, Austrians, Normans, Spanish, Venetians, Neapolitans and whatever, each speaking their own language. Shows what a disaster such multicultural societies can become.
That was
not a multicultural society in the contemporary use of the term. For all their linguistic diversity, those groups had very strong unifying factors, not the least of them being precisely religion and culture. A Venetian relocating to Sicily or a Neapolitan going to Milan might have faced temporal difficulties in making himself understood by, or understanding, the natives (and if he was an educated person this didn´t even apply) but in terms of religious values & practices and cultural & intellectual environment there was no significant difference, let alone tension or conflict.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 17, 2015, 01:55:57 AMClearly, not both of the following claims can be true: (1) The West has abdicated and dissolved in multiculturalism and (2) The West is proposing a set of values that are abhorrent to islamists.
Correction. The West is in the
process of dissolving, and it is dissolving because of the anti-traditional values it has espoused, values which the Muslims find abhorrent. Obviously, when i said the West was no more i was speaking hyperbolically.
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 02:00:45 AM
.....let alone tension or conflict.
I certainly beg to differ on that. There was tension and conflict aplenty in the process leading to the establishment of Italy under Piemontese leadership. I just wanted to throw some much needed perspective into the discussion.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 17, 2015, 01:55:57 AM
If (1) was true, why bother with sacrificing young people as suicidal bombers, as "Eurabia" would only be a couple of decades away.
I don´t know if it is true or not but I just want to point out that (1) from their point of view those young people do not sacrifice but gain an eternal life of pleasure and (2) one could have as well asked Lenin why bother with a civil war and creating gulags and stuff when according to Marx the downfall of capitalism and the final triumph of communism would be only a couple of decades away.
Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2015, 02:08:40 AM
There was tension and conflict aplenty in the process leading to the establishment of Italy under Piemontese leadership.
Absolutely, its consequences are felt even today, but it was a political and economic conflict, not a religious or cultural one. There was no significant and irreconcilable tension or conflict between the religious and cultural values and practices of a Calabrese and those of a Piemontese.
Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2015, 02:08:40 AM
I certainly beg to differ on that. There was tension and conflict aplenty in the process leading to the establishment of Italy under Piemontese leadership. I just wanted to throw some much needed perspective into the discussion.
Yes, the perspective of a suicidal relativistic ideology.
"There was always conflict, so we might as well start World War III".
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 02:10:25 AM
I don´t know if it is true or not but I just want to point out that (1) from their point of view those young people do not sacrifice but gain an eternal life of pleasure and (2) one could have as well asked Lenin why bother with a civil war and creating gulags and stuff when according to Marx the downfall of capitalism and the final triumph of communism would be only a couple of decades away.
Lenin wouldn't have got there in the first place unless the Germans had wanted him there to ease pressure on their eastern front...I guess that one backfired.
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 02:14:56 AM
Absolutely, its consequences are felt even today, but it was a political and economic conflict, not a religious or cultural one. There was no significant and irreconcilable tension or conflict between the religious and cultural values and practices of a Calabrese and those of a Piemontese.
By way of comparison, look at the way Jews and Christians were dealt with in Muslim countries. Tolerated, but never seen as equal. This is because you cannot have a civilization unless you have a single, unified dominating culture. One mind, one soul.
Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2015, 02:16:16 AM
Lenin wouldn't have got there in the first place unless the Germans had wanted him there to ease pressure on their eastern front...
Or if Kerensky had ordered his arrest and hanging on spot the very moment he set foot on Russian soil. But that is irrelevant. He acted on contradictory ideological grounds, or maybe not. He might have thought that, although is true that history moves inexorably in the direction of communism, it doesn´t hurt to speed it up a little.
Quote from: Purusha on November 17, 2015, 02:21:44 AM
By way of comparison, look at the way Jews and Christians were dealt with in Muslim countries. Tolerated, but never seen as equal.
And the big and sad irony: before Hitler the German / Austrian Jews were the most socially integrated and culturally assimilated of all European Jews...
The irony is that the Muslims are like a concentrated dose of everything the left hates. They are religious fundamentalist and very, very right-wing. They do not care about the rights of women. They do no care about the rights of homosexuals. They believe a society should be ruled by religious law, and have no taste for modern culture in all its facets. It is as if Europe was being flooded with Bible thumbing rednecks of the worse sort. But, their skin isn't white, so i guess that's ok?
Quote from: Purusha on November 17, 2015, 02:35:06 AM
The irony is that the Muslims are like a concentrated dose of everything the left hates. They are religious fundamentalist and very, very right-wing. They do not care about the right of women. They do no care about the rights of homosexuals. They believe a society should be ruled by religious law, and have no taste for modern culture in all its facets.
That is an accurate description of Saudi Arabia, Iran and a host of other Muslim states but not
all Muslims, or Muslim states, are like that. The above is not true about Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Lebanon. It was not true about Iran before the Islamic Revolution, it was not true about Irak before and under Saddam Hussein, nor about Egypt before and under Mubarak, not even about Libya before and under Geddafi, or Syria before and under al-Assad father and son.
During my stay in France I met Algerian-born Muslims who were about the most friendly and helping people I ever met and their general way of thinking was no different than mine, at least on the surface. It is true, though, that they were highly educated and quite secular in outlook.
The Muslim native minority in Romania, which we inherited in 1878 from the Ottoman Empire, is thoroughly assimilated on all accounts and their Grand Mufti is an outspoken ennemy of Islamic terrorism. About recent Muslim immigrants I can´t say anything else than some of them are obviously radicals, judging by the fact that every year several of them are discreetly deported.
The problem is that Europe has for too long been (idiotically, criminally) tolerating exactly the sort of Muslims you described above: first and foremost, they have been (idiotically, criminally) alowed to come to Europe without a minimal background check; once there, they have been (idiotically, criminally) allowed to open mosques for the undisturbed indoctrination of their coreligionists, especially children and youngsters; they have been (idiotically, criminally) allowed to openly proclaim their murderous and destructive goals in public processions and marches under police protection (!!!); they have been (idiotically, criminally) allowed to organize themselves in ghettos and no-go zones; their misdemeanors, offences and crimes have been (idiotically, criminally) either brushed under carpet (Rotherham and other cases) or treated with soft punishment, if at all; and so on and so forth, all in the name of a twisted, perverted and ultimately self-defeating idea of human rights and freedoms, and it boggles the mind that even in the 14th hour, even now that the failure, idiocy and shortsightedness of such policy is hurtfully obvious there are people who claim that it was nothing wrong with this approach and it should be continued, even sped up, because the problem lies elsewhere. Yes, the West had a disastrous policy regarding the Middle East and Maghreb and is partially responsible for the whole mess, but that doesn´t mean that it should not take all available and necessary domestic measures to protect its citizens until it clears up that mess. The battle has many fronts, certainly, but the domestic one is right now the number one priority hands down.
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 02:14:56 AM
Absolutely, its consequences are felt even today, but it was a political and economic conflict, not a religious or cultural one. There was no significant and irreconcilable tension or conflict between the religious and cultural values and practices of a Calabrese and those of a Piemontese.
That frankly is nonsense. Perhaps you need to travel more in Italy where the North feels almost entirely estranged from and hostile wowards the South and people in Sicily don't necessarily own to the badge of Italian. It, along with Germany and several other European countries are recent constructs which have spent many centuries as separate sub-tribes, (principalities), and only a short time as any kind of supposedly integrated society.
Additionally, religion was and remains a live dividing line, or a relatively recent point of pressure in a number of countries between Roman Catholic and Protestant believers. Think of Northern Ireland in the very recent past. There the divisions only just sit beneathe the water, ever ready to explode. If historical religious issues do not form the basis of new conflict, that is only due to the secularisation of these societies.
Those or other such rifts sit in Spain, France and Italy to my knowledge. The pressures arising now will cause a polarisation which will push a number of countries to the right of where they currently sit and the regional divisions will become increasingly marked.
Mike
That argument basically amounts to saying that, because there is often infighting among siblings, we ought to abolish the very idea of family, or that at any rate it "proves" the family does not create a greater sense of cohesion among individuals (even though it proves nothing of the like).
Quote from: Purusha on November 17, 2015, 01:57:59 AM
Simple question: do you believe Caitlyn Jenner is a woman?
No. I think Jenner is mentally disturbed.
Quote
Do you believe homosexuality is perfectly natural and normal?
natural in the trivial sense that homosexual behavior occurs in nature, abnormal in the trivial sense that it is rare.
But what's the obvious connection? That we are incoherent because we cannot accomodate both muslims and out gays? Tolerance does not mean support, tolerance only means we do not put gays in jail or exclude muslims from becoming teachers etc. In that original sense we can and should be tolerant to both.
BTW, most maghreb or levante arabs or afghans are "white" if one wants to use such racial language; those guys on he police photos look "white" to me.
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 03:24:51 AM
That is an accurate description of Saudi Arabia, Iran and a host of other Muslim states but not all Muslims, or Muslim states, are like that. The above is not true about Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Lebanon. It was not true about Iran before the Islamic Revolution, it was not true about Irak before and under Saddam Hussein, nor about Egypt before and under Mubarak, not even about Libya before and under Geddafi, or Syria before and under al-Assad father and son.
During my stay in France I met Algerian-born Muslims who were about the most friendly and helping people I ever met and their general way of thinking was no different than mine, at least on the surface. It is true, though, that they were highly educated and quite secular in outlook.
The Muslim native minority in Romania, which we inherited in 1878 from the Ottoman Empire, is thoroughly assimilated on all accounts and their Grand Mufti is an outspoken ennemy of Islamic terrorism. About recent Muslim immigrants I can´t say anything else than some of them are obviously radicals, judging by the fact that every year several of them are discreetly deported.
For that matter, the type of "right-wing" i was talking about is a left-wing strawman to begin with. The Bible states in American have some of the friendliest people you will ever meet. Still, by leftist logic, Muslims ought to be their number one enemy, right?
Quote from: Florestan on November 17, 2015, 03:24:51 AM
The problem is that Europe has for too long been (idiotically, criminally) tolerating exactly the sort of Muslims you described above: first and foremost, they have been (idiotically, criminally) alowed to come to Europe without a minimal background check; once there, they have been (idiotically, criminally) allowed to open mosques for the undisturbed indoctrination of their coreligionists, especially children and youngsters; they have been (idiotically, criminally) allowed to openly proclaim their murderous and destructive goals in public processions and marches under police protection (!!!); they have been (idiotically, criminally) allowed to organize themselves in ghettos and no-go zones; their misdemeanors, offences and crimes have been (idiotically, criminally) either brushed under carpet (Rotherham and other cases) or treated with soft punishment, if at all; and so on and so forth, all in the name of a twisted, perverted and ultimately self-defeating idea of human rights and freedoms, and it boggles the mind that even in the 14th hour, even now that the failure, idiocy and shortsightedness of such policy is hurtfully obvious there are people who claim that it was nothing wrong with this approach and it should be continued, even sped up, because the problem lies elsewhere. Yes, the West had a disastrous policy regarding the Middle East and Maghreb and is partially responsible for the whole mess, but that doesn´t mean that it should not take all available and necessary domestic measures to protect its citizens until it clears up that mess. The battle has many fronts, certainly, but the domestic one is right now the number one priority hands down.
Yes, and those are the fruits of multiculturalism.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 17, 2015, 03:41:14 AMBut what's the obvious connection?
The connection is that homosexuality is forbidden in Islam. How do you harmonize two point of views that flat out oppose and contradict each other? You speak of "tolerance", but that only works if both sides play along. What happens when one side doesn't want to submit? What happens if Muslims decide that homosexuality ought to be suppressed and that they are not going to have any homosexual marriage?
Quote from: Purusha on November 17, 2015, 03:39:03 AM
That argument basically amounts to saying that, because there is often infighting among siblings, we ought to abolish the very idea of family, or that at any rate it "proves" the family does not create a greater sense of cohesion among individuals (even though it proves nothing of the like).
I did not suggest any such thing. I understand you like to claim that you can see behind what people write, but at least where I am concerned, you fail.
Incidentlly, I am not being drawn in to an extended entrails dragged over a bed of lettuce discussion. Neither you nor Florestan seem interested in exploring a subject; rather, laying down the firm opinions that you hold. I did not want to allow that specific acpect that I outlined above to sit unchallenged.
So you may go at it as you wish and others can decide.
But bear in mind the rules of this site and be careful. I think much of what you write is designed to insult. So far no one has got too excited about your sweeping statements. But as you seem to predict doom for Europe, I predict a sad end to your contributions here unless you show some value on the music topics. This is primarily a music discussion board.
Quote from: knight66 on November 17, 2015, 04:01:14 AMI did not suggest any such thing.
Then by all means explain yourself. How is infighting among siblings supposed to support the idea that having completely different families living in the same house leads to a stronger, more cohesive existence? Because if it does not prove such a thing, why bring it up?
Quote from: knight66 on November 17, 2015, 03:35:36 AM
in Italy where the North feels almost entirely estranged from and hostile wowards the South
As someone with slight but trustful former and current Italian connections I doubt that all, or even the majority, of Northern Italians feel that way but I agree that it is a significant issue. Yet the reasons for this estrangement and hostility have nothing to do with religion or culture. Is not Milan under the same religious jurisdiction as Palermo? Are the religious beliefs and practices different in Venice than those in Naples? Is Dante less admired, read and studied in Foggia than he is in Padova? Is Vivaldi regarded as a foreign composer in Calabria?
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and people in Sicily don't necessarily own to the badge of Italian.
Once again: Italian is a political, not a religious or cultural badge.
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It, along with Germany and several other European countries are recent constructs which have spent many centuries as separate sub-tribes, (principalities), and only a short time as any kind of supposedly integrated society.
Well, England and France have been supposedly imtegrated societies for centuries, yet their history is rife with internal conflicts, revolutions and civil wars. But it is quite interesting that many of them had religious background and bitterly opposed Catholics to Protestants (an umbrella word). Italy, divided for centuries, never knew any kind of religious civil war precisely because from North to South there was the utmost uniformity of religion. The only conflicts Italy knew (and knows to this day) were and are about who should rule, not about what religion should prevail and what way of living and thinking should be imposed over the whole country.
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Additionally, religion was and remains a live dividing line, or a relatively recent point of pressure in a number of countries between Roman Catholic and Protestant believers. Think of Northern Ireland in the very recent past.
True but irrelevant. The issue was Italy.
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There the divisions only just sit beneathe the water, ever ready to explode. If historical religious issues do not form the basis of new conflict, that is only due to the secularisation of these societies.
True as well. Good luck in secularizing Saudi Arabia and Iran, or the followers of Anjem Choudary for that matter --- it is mindboggling that such a man roams freely in England.
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Those or other such rifts sit in Spain, France and Italy to my knowledge. The pressures arising now will cause a polarisation which will push a number of countries to the right of where they currently sit and the regional divisions will become increasingly marked.
That might very well be the case, but just because those regional divisions never disappeared in the first place, they have just been brushed under the carpet in the name of a cosmopolitan-liberal utopia that obviously failed --- and I don´t say that with joy as I am myself quite cosmopolitan and liberal but I am also accutely aware of the fact that what fits and benefits individuals doesn´t always or everywhere or anywhere fits and benefits entire societies, let alone aggregates of societies.
Quote from: Purusha on November 17, 2015, 03:43:43 AM
Yes, and those are the fruits of multiculturalism.
No argument here.
Quote from: knight66 on November 17, 2015, 04:01:14 AM
nor Florestan seem interested in exploring a subject; rather, laying down the firm opinions that you hold.
I laid down some firm facts. It is not my fault if they don´t fit your worldview. And frankly I´m disapponted: you know, and can, better than that.
I think there is a certain misunderstanding going on here, because when some of us speak of unity some appear to believe we are talking about uniformity. Obviously, there is diversity in unity (by definition), but it is the diversity of organs one finds in a living human being, and not the type of diversity one finds in a dismembered corpse, which is the type of diversity multiculturalists appear to be advocating for. Brake everything down and then mash the pieces together hoping something magical happens in the process. Why do i get the feeling that the smashing down is actually the point, and that the mashing together is just how some want to justify the smashing?
I find it both extremely amusing and extremely disheartening that while Anjem Choudary, the Brest imam Tannhauser pointed us to and scores of others of their ilk freely roam the streets of Europe spilling their venom, the one who is threatened with being shut down is an anonymous and inoffensive poster in an internet board, and on what ground, good God!; he doesn´t post more often on music.
Let´s make a thought experiment. Say, after the first month of his activity, Anjem Choudary would have received the following official warning from the UK government:
Quote from: knight66 on November 17, 2015, 04:01:14 AM
[...]bear in mind the rules of this site country and be careful. I We think much of what you write preach is designed to insult. So far no one has got too excited about your sweeping statements. But as you seem to predict doom Sharia for Europe, I we predict a sad end to your contributions residence here unless you show some value on the music tolerance and respect topics. This is primarily a music discussion board tolerant and respectful society.
Wouldn´t that have been nice?
Now, let´s get back to reality and witness someone being threatened with censorship because he disturbs our enjoying our favorite composer and doesn´t even bother to tell us which is his...
Yes, let's get down to reality where a discussion board is the property of some private entity, and the rules of public speaking are governed differently, as they should be. Two totally different discussions. What you say in my home and what you say publicly are two totally different things, as you surely know.
And now it's locked. The purpose of this thread was not to allow an outlet for bile and venom to be spilled. We seem to be unable to keep to any sort of line which involves any outlook except our own selfish one. Those of you who live to fear the end of the world, you should start a thread for that where there can be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the more mature people can actually have a discussion like adults.
GB