I've just finished listening to Franz Scharwenka's 4th Piano Concerto, and for the first time, I noticed in the finale a single cymbal crash. This is the only use of percussion other than timpani in the entire 40-minute piece. It got me thinking about other works which call for percussion, but it's only used once or twice in the entire work.
Dvorák 9 - Bit of triangle work in the scherzo, then a single cymbal scrape in the finale. Wonderfully effective for that moment, but they're paying one guy to just do that in the entire symphony?
Bruckner 7 & 8 - Slow movements. No. 7 might climax with cymbals and triangle, depends on who's recording it. No. 8 does too. Other than that, Bruckner uses no non-timpani percussion in any of his symphonies.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 11, 2015, 06:11:17 AM
Dvorák 9 - Bit of triangle work in the scherzo, then a single cymbal scrape in the finale. Wonderfully effective for that moment, but they're paying one guy to just do that in the entire symphony?
It's not percussion, but Dvorak 8 famously has a 5-second-long
cor anglais solo and the instrument doesn't play a single other note the whole symphony long.
Wow, I really need to get out more, my experience of percussion writing is way too influenced by Varèse.
Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2015, 06:15:48 AM
It's not percussion, but Dvorak 8 famously has a 5-second-long cor anglais solo and the instrument doesn't play a single other note the whole symphony long.
cor anglais is frequently doubled by the 3rd or 2nd oboe,
Other common doublings are flute/piccolo, clarinet/bass clarinet, bassoon/contrabassoon, piano/celeste. Fingerings are similar for these combinations.
Surinach's Symphonic Variations calls for 2 c.a. and is written so the oboes can double.
Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2015, 06:15:48 AM
It's not percussion, but Dvorak 8 famously has a 5-second-long cor anglais solo and the instrument doesn't play a single other note the whole symphony long.
Also the bass clarinet in Tchaikovsky 6 which, iirc, only plays four notes (marked
ppppp). Though I think he originally wrote the part for bassoon and it's just unplayable at that dynamic so everyone substitutes bass clarinet, but still.
As for percussion: I know there's a Liszt piece with one single triangle stroke in the entire piece, but I don't know which one.
Quote from: amw on December 11, 2015, 12:08:05 PM
Also the bass clarinet in Tchaikovsky 6 which, iirc, only plays four notes (marked ppppp). Though I think he originally wrote the part for bassoon and it's just unplayable at that dynamic so everyone substitutes bass clarinet, but still.
It's six
p's, and yes, it was originally written for bassoon. :o If there are any bassoonists in the "house," I'd be interested to know just how possible it is to play that softly in that range...
Quote from: amw on December 11, 2015, 12:08:05 PM
As for percussion: I know there's a Liszt piece with one single triangle stroke in the entire piece, but I don't know which one.
You may be thinking of his Piano Concerto #1, which actually has a fairly prominent triangle part in the third "movement." 8)
Shostakovich tends to write for one, two or three percussionists mostly, but then call for a large number for a brief section. Symphony #4 needs nine (9!) for perhaps forty measures in the first movement; Symphony #8 needs seven at the transition from the third to the fourth movement--but only in those places; the rest of the work can be played with fewer percussionists.
Quote from: jochanaan on December 11, 2015, 05:06:12 PM
It's six p's, and yes, it was originally written for bassoon. :o If there are any bassoonists in the "house," I'd be interested to know just how possible it is to play that softly in that range...
I've heard that some actually hum the part softly because the clicking of the keys is louder than the intended dynamic of the actual notes.
In the fifth movement of Ein Heldenleben a triangle chimes in a single time, about two-thirds the way through, signaling a transition. It's a fantastic touch. "After-triangle" the movement begins its descent into a more placid pacing.
Can't recall the triangle's role in the rest of the piece...
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 11, 2015, 05:33:22 PM
In the fifth movement of Ein Heldenleben a triangle chimes in a single time, about two-thirds the way through, signaling a transition. It's a fantastic touch. "After-triangle" the movement begins its descent into a more placid pacing.
Can't recall the triangle's role in the rest of the piece...
My guess is that one of the snare drummers picks up the triangle for that one note. 8)
Quote from: jochanaan on December 11, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
My guess is that one of the snare drummers picks up the triangle for that one note. 8)
A little moonlighting!
Meistersinger-Vorspiel also has a single soft triangle stroke at a very "poetic" moment, but I think it is also employed on the loud sections.
Not percussion and not sure, but I think Brahms' German Requiem employs a harp only at one or two comparably brief passages (the one I recall is when the harp and flutes imitate raindrops at the words "Morgenregen und Abendregen" (early/late rain) in the 2nd movement).
And Bruckner's 8th has harps only in the trio of the 2nd movement and maybe a little in the slow mvmt.
Quote from: Jo498 on December 12, 2015, 12:21:59 AM
And Bruckner's 8th has harps only in the trio of the 2nd movement and maybe a little in the slow mvmt.
Yes to both, although in the original version (as recorded by Georg Tintner on Naxos), the 2nd-movement trio is totally different and omits the harps.
Janáček is a bit of a serial offender here; there are 3 cymbal notes in the Sinfonietta (one brief suspended tap, one huge smash when the 13 trumpets re-enter at the end, followed by one suspended trill - if that's what it's called on cymbals). And although I don't have the score to cofirm, the only untuned percussion I can think of in the Glagolitic Mass is the side-drum roll introducing the organ solo in the Credo.
On not quite the same subject, I once went to a Mahler concert by a very good semi-pro scratch orchestra in which the baritone soloist in the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen also wielded the hammer in the 6th symphony.
Quote from: DaveF on December 12, 2015, 05:18:38 AM
And although I don't have the score to cofirm, the only untuned percussion I can think of in the Glagolitic Mass is the side-drum roll introducing the organ solo in the Credo.
I believe there are a couple of tam-tam strikes later in that same movement.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 13, 2015, 08:33:17 AM
I believe there are a couple of tam-tam strikes later in that same movement.
Of course - three or four whoppers, immediately after
jegože česarstvyu nebudet konca or whatever. I clearly haven't listened to it enough recently, an omission I must put right.
Plus in the original (and essentially the 'correct') version of the Glagolitic, the side drum has strikingly more to do.
Ferrucio Busoni: two soft tam tam / gong strokes to dissolve this bittersweet composition...
Berceuse élégiaque
https://www.youtube.com/v/Fr65XS4IWJ8
Quote from: pjme on December 14, 2015, 11:01:38 AM
Ferrucio Busoni: two soft tam tam / gong strokes to dissolve this bittersweet composition...
Which composition?
And then there is that single tubular bell in Pärt's Cantus in memoriam Britten...
https://www.youtube.com/v/82-xbhfNR2g
The last chord in the Berlioz Fantastique includes a single cymbal clash.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 16, 2015, 03:41:53 AM
The last chord in the Berlioz Fantastique includes a single cymbal clash.
Yes, but there's considerably more percussion than that in the work. Several cymbal crashes in IV, the bells and bass drum rolls in V.
Quote from: Maestro267 on December 17, 2015, 07:01:08 AM
Yes, but there's considerably more percussion than that in the work. Several cymbal crashes in IV, the bells and bass drum rolls in V.
You are right of course, and I'm happy to stand corrected. The lone cymbal crash at the end of V has always stood out for me, however, as a perfect example of Berlioz's
discreet use of percussion.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 17, 2015, 08:34:30 AM
You are right of course, and I'm happy to stand corrected. The lone cymbal crash at the end of V has always stood out for me, however, as a perfect example of Berlioz's discreet use of percussion.
Discreet - yes! I seem to remember a quotation from some composer or critic who said that percussion should be like the light from a lighthouse, only rarely needed, but genuinely necessary when used, guiding you through the passage. Or maybe I am making that up. :(
Quote from: Brian on December 17, 2015, 08:41:30 AM
Discreet - yes! I seem to remember a quotation from some composer or critic who said that percussion should be like the light from a lighthouse, only rarely needed, but genuinely necessary when used, guiding you through the passage. Or maybe I am making that up. :(
It's like what someone said about exclamation points, which again I could be making this up, that one should allow them three times in one's writing lifetime.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 17, 2015, 09:38:30 AM
It's like what someone said about exclamation points, which again I could be making this up, that one should allow them three times in one's writing lifetime.
Googled this because it sounds like a delightful rule - I did find out that Elmore Leonard said the rule is three exclamation marks per 100,000 words, while Terry Pratchett called multiple exclamation marks after one sentence "a sure sign of a diseased mind".
Quote from: Brian on December 17, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
Googled this because it sounds like a delightful rule - I did find out that Elmore Leonard said the rule is three exclamation marks per 100,000 words, while Terry Pratchett called multiple exclamation marks after one sentence "a sure sign of a diseased mind".
Aha!!!
Ives: bells in the 3rd symphony
RVW's Symphony No. 8 comes immediately to mind. If I'm not mistaken, he employed quite a large percussion section in this symphony.
Brahms' 4th has triangle for the 3rd movement, only. Quite a bit in that movement but the percussionist is only needed for this movement. (Tympanist is busy in all four, of course.)
Castanets in the Bacchanale from Wagner's Tannhäuser.
Quote from: pjme on December 14, 2015, 01:25:43 PM
And then there is that single tubular bell in Pärt's Cantus in memoriam Britten...
https://www.youtube.com/v/82-xbhfNR2g
And a single piano cluster that concludes Schnittke's
Concerto for Three (well, there's the Minuet for string trio afterwards, but that's meant to be played after the applause like an encore, iirc)
Putting a grand piano on stage in order to play one chord is one of those things a composer can only do when he's either (a) really famous or (b) just doesn't give a fuck anymore. Schnittke, partially crippled due to strokes (iirc), probably fell into both categories at the time ;)
Quote from: pjme on December 14, 2015, 01:25:43 PM
And then there is that single tubular bell in Pärt's Cantus in memoriam Britten...
Only one pitch is used, but it plays throughout the composition - so it doesn't count does it?
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 20, 2015, 05:17:44 AM
RVW's Symphony No. 8 comes immediately to mind. If I'm not mistaken, he employed quite a large percussion section in this symphony.
I'm after works with rare uses of percussion though. The large percussion section dominates the finale of RVW 8 to wonderful effect.
Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 11, 2015, 09:42:26 PM
A little moonlighting!
It is rare in a conventional classical orchestra to have other than one tympanist and maybe two other players; other than the tympanist, percussionists by definition play most of the instruments in 'the kitchen,' the metallic non-pitched, mallet phones, the bass and snare drums, tubular chime, the works.
Other instrumentalists on union scale get paid time and a half if they play even one bar on an alternate familial instrument, say switching from clarinet to E-flat soprano clarinet.
The single tam-tam stroke in the last movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathétique.
Quote from: amw on December 20, 2015, 06:09:00 PM
And a single piano cluster that concludes Schnittke's Concerto for Three (well, there's the Minuet for string trio afterwards, but that's meant to be played after the applause like an encore, iirc)
Putting a grand piano on stage in order to play one chord is one of those things a composer can only do when he's either (a) really famous or (b) just doesn't give a fuck anymore. Schnittke, partially crippled due to strokes (iirc), probably fell into both categories at the time ;)
I don't think that is quite the case. If you are fairly assured your work will be performed in the larger symphonic venues [your reputation having already secured that fair certainty], that grand piano is always available as part of the percussion section, so you can bank on it being there, along with there being a full-time employed staff player already on salary [= no additional cost for the performance.]
When you do things like require a contrabass sarrusophone, use it for only a couple of toots at the beginning of each segment of
Threni, then you are banking on your already known reputation as Stravinsky, and can then plan on whichever the performance group is having their own contrabassonist
who just happens to own a contrabass Sarusaphone, or their being more than ready to hire an instrument for their contrabassonist, lol.
Either way, the moment the contrabassoonist plays that sarrusophone, not his primary instrument, he gets union wage time and a half; if the symphonic organization had to rent the sarrusophone, that is additional rental costs over that time and a half union wage.
If you do not have a strong enough reputation that precedes you, it is possible that sarrusophone part could be responsible for your submitted work of otherwise great merit and deep genius being summarily rejected, lol.