In an article in the
Telegraph titled "The 168 best classical music recordings",
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/best-classical-recordings/ the author, Ivan Hewett, wrote:
QuoteNames to avoid: Karajan, Ashkenazy, Kissin, Lang Lang, Maazel, Mrs Mills and Richard Clayderman. Forget you ever knew these people.
I understand this advice should be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm curious: why do these people deserve shunning? I know Karajan's style has fallen out of favor, but I've never heard the rest disparaged before. (In fact, I've never even heard of Mrs Mills and Richard Clayderman before.)
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 26, 2016, 06:13:05 PMI know Karajan's style has fallen out of favor
With whom? Certainly not the author, who cites Fluffy's
Falstaff.
A quick perusal of the author's list shows a fairly conservative list. (And really, Kovacevich in Grieg/Schumann over, say, Lupu? Erich over Carlos in
Der Rosenkavalier? Bosh! Flimshaw!)
As my pal Bugs Bunny would say, "What a maroon."
I also don't know who Mrs. Mills is. But even Lang Lang has his occasional virtues - I find much to like in his Chopin, for instance.
Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2016, 06:25:45 PM
I also don't know who Mrs. Mills is.
I imagine Mr. Mills does.
Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2016, 06:25:45 PMI also don't know who Mrs. Mills is.
(http://www.mrsmills.org/images/mrs_mills_albums-31.jpg)
She's a competitor in the worst album cover category.
She sounds like an even funnier version of Liberace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Mills
Quote from: Todd on January 26, 2016, 06:23:21 PMWith whom? Certainly not the author, who cites Fluffy's Falstaff.
Perhaps I should have said that, in contrast to the rest, I've heard Karajan criticized more than once for being out of fashion.
Quote from: Todd on January 26, 2016, 06:37:57 PM
(http://www.mrsmills.org/images/mrs_mills_albums-31.jpg)
She's a competitor in the worst album cover category.
Apparently the Telegraph's readership is comprised of people who might still be listening to Mrs Mills?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 26, 2016, 06:38:31 PM
She sounds like an even funnier version of Liberace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs_Mills
"her stable-mates The Beatles, with whom she shared space at Abbey Road Studios"
Thanks for this link. I think, contra Ivan Hewett, it's time to celebrate Mrs. Mills for the totally unironic joy she must have given innumerable people. Why pick on someone like that? It's like a painting critic taking time out of his historical survey to mock Bob Ross.
Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2016, 06:54:09 PMWhy pick on someone like that?
Because she's dead and he's not.
Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2016, 06:54:09 PM
"her stable-mates The Beatles, with whom she shared space at Abbey Road Studios"
She sounds like a horse.
(Sorry, for once in my life I am really LMAO typing this.)
I'm sure Maazel has some good recordings out there...I haven't heard much stuff I really am fond of from Kissin but I don't know enough of his piano repertoire to make a well informed judgement. I don't think I've even listened to any complete work played by Lang Lang, so I can't say anything a both him....I also have no idea who Mrs. Mills is and I don't think I want to, but Richard Clayderman is someone whose music I wish I never heard.
Karajan is a conductor that I've listened to many recordings of, I don't consistently dislike his interpretations as some of his very early recordings are OK at best, but his Strauss is terrific in my opinion. Everything else sounds saccharine and imbalanced to me.
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 26, 2016, 06:46:51 PM
Perhaps I should have said that, in contrast to the rest, I've heard Karajan criticized more than once for being out of fashion.
Fashion is exactly that, fashion. Stuff that once was out of fashion suddenly is in again.
I prefer this:
(http://www.norskmat.com/users/leirbu_mystore_no/images/71407_Mills_kaviar_1.png)
Not to mention this:
(http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/r-e-m-s-mike-mills-band-has-lot-of-stuff-in-the-vaults-20140519/20140519-rem-624-1400515484.jpg)
Name to avoid:
Ivan Hewett
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on January 26, 2016, 10:57:02 PM
Name to avoid:
Ivan Hewett
Darn it...where's that "like" button?
At first I thought it was all meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but no:
"Late 20th-century composers
you should profess to like: Boulez, Messiaen, Ligeti, Grisey, Birtwistle, Stockhausen, Xenakis, Berio, Dallapiccola. And those that
you might actually enjoy: Messiaen, Ligeti, Rautavaara, Silvestrov, Adams, Reich, Glass, Copland, MacMillan."
Some remarkably terrible advice all the way through that article.
Is there another thread for criticizing his list of essential recordings?
Quote from: The new erato on January 26, 2016, 10:00:28 PM
I prefer this:
(http://www.norskmat.com/users/leirbu_mystore_no/images/71407_Mills_kaviar_1.png)
Not to mention this:
(http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/images/story/r-e-m-s-mike-mills-band-has-lot-of-stuff-in-the-vaults-20140519/20140519-rem-624-1400515484.jpg)
I think I'd prefer Mrs Mills over R.E.M.
The "problem" with Karajan is rather that until fairly recently (o.k. maybe more like 25 years ago) when you entered a record/CD store you were flooded with his recordings and many of them were also standard recommendations because he simply was by far the most famous conductor (alive or recently deceased). Some connoisseurs avoided them, of course, or at least were much more picky. And while I am everything but a Karajan fan (and for several reason I only "grew up" on a couple of his recordings) it also seems silly to avoid them on purpose. For Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Strauss one could probably do worse than get Karajan's recordings (one can usually also do better).
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 27, 2016, 12:13:40 AM
I think I'd prefer Mrs Mills over R.E.M.
A favorite band with superb qualities.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 27, 2016, 12:49:38 AM
The "problem" with Karajan is rather that until fairly recently (o.k. maybe more like 25 years ago) when you entered a record/CD store you were flooded with his recordings and many of them were also standard recommendations because he simply was by far the most famous conductor (alive or recently deceased). Some connoisseurs avoided them, of course, or at least were much more picky. And while I am everything but a Karajan fan (and for several reason I only "grew up" on a couple of his recordings) it also seems silly to avoid them on purpose. For Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Strauss one could probably do worse than get Karajan's recordings (one can usually also do better).
Karajan was eccentric. He used recordings to build himself a monument so people can worship his ego.....
My bottom three conductors for Beethoven include Karajan, but there ARE two that I like less 8)
3rd least favourite: Karajan (particularly for the 80s Beethoven)
2nd least favourite: Thielemann (reminds me of soggy bread for some reason)
Absolute least favourite: Maximianno Cobra (I simply cannot express in words how much anyone should avoid his Beethoven)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 01:42:09 AM
Absolute least favourite: Maximianno Cobra (I simply cannot express in words how much anyone should avoid his Beethoven)
I recall the best part of his Beethoven cycle being the Amazon reviews. (I also recall that some of the recordings credited a real orchestra but actually sounded like they were made with Vienna Symphonic Library or similar software)
I think it is usually bad it something becomes so dominant as Karajan used to be on the market for records/CDs. Even in a smaller segment a (or a few) "standard recommendations" can be stifling. This was much worse in earlier times when records (at least in Europe) were comparably far more expensive and one was almost restricted to local stores (there was mailorder, of course, but it was not convenient).
I am no expert on Karajan (e.g. I have not heard anything of the later Beethoven recordings although the differences are supposed to be fairly small) but I think the 5th and 9th (this one partly for the soloists) of the 1962 cycle are very strong. While I tend to dislike the general smooth, seamless "Karajan sound" even here, they are impressive and powerful performances.
In any case, while market(ing) forces of a certain time might have blown Karajan's dominance all out of proportion for about 3 decades, he was genuinely admired by a lot of (rather different) musicians (e.g. Gould) so it seems somewhat facile to dismiss his work out of hand.
Karajan was a very good conductor, at least in some major parts of the repertoire. He was also the first to understand the power of modern media (both written and musical) and how the music world had changed from the days of Furtwangler et al. Together with DGs media machine that made a powerful combo and explains why he divides opinion today. Less ego would have made him more universally (!) admired.
Quote from: The new erato on January 27, 2016, 02:02:32 AM
Karajan was a very good conductor, at least in some major parts of the repertoire. He was also the first to understand the power of modern media (both written and musical) and how the music world had changed from the days of Furtwangler et al. Together with DGs media machine that made a powerful combo and explains why he divides opinion today. Less ego would have made him more universally (!) admired.
I don't know about his understanding of written media, but he sure knew that visual media, video in particular, was a powerful marketing tool.
Quote from: North Star on January 27, 2016, 02:07:43 AM
I don't know about his understanding of written media, but he sure knew that visual media, video in particular, was a powerful marketing tool.
I was in a hurry and didn't find the right word, would have written printed media if I hadn't been so rash!
Quote from: The new erato on January 27, 2016, 01:25:21 AM
A favorite band with superb qualities.
Is all of R.E.M.'s music in a minor key? It always struck me as singularly depressing. Hearing a R.E.M. song seemed to sap any joy from my soul. If I wanted to get depressed, I'd reach for The Smiths; at least Morrissey had a sense of humor.
Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2016, 06:54:09 PM
"her stable-mates The Beatles, with whom she shared space at Abbey Road Studios"
Thanks for this link. I think, contra Ivan Hewett, it's time to celebrate Mrs. Mills for the totally unironic joy she must have given innumerable people. Why pick on someone like that? It's like a painting critic taking time out of his historical survey to mock Bob Ross.
There you go: in celebration of Mrs Mills, I have memorialized her in my profile pic.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 01:42:09 AM
Absolute least favourite: Maximianno Cobra (I simply cannot express in words how much anyone should avoid his Beethoven)
I've managed easily, one might even say, effortlessly!
Karajan's Vienna
The Planets on Decca remains my favorite version. Listened just a couple weeks ago to confirm that it is still top dog. :)
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 27, 2016, 03:25:04 AM
There you go: in celebration of Mrs Mills, I have memorialized her in my profile pic.
Marvelous!
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 27, 2016, 03:05:05 AM
Is all of R.E.M.'s music in a minor key? It always struck me as singularly depressing. Hearing a R.E.M. song seemed to sap any joy from my soul. If I wanted to get depressed, I'd reach for The Smiths; at least Morrissey had a sense of humor.
Try Shiny Happy People. They do lots og stuff in minor but Iæve never found them very deprssing, Now the Smiths (which I have complete) I find definitely more depressing.
Quote from: The new erato on January 27, 2016, 02:02:32 AM
Karajan was a very good conductor, at least in some major parts of the repertoire. He was also the first to understand the power of modern media (both written and musical) and how the music world had changed from the days of Furtwangler et al. Together with DGs media machine that made a powerful combo and explains why he divides opinion today. Less ego would have made him more universally (!) admired.
He was an excellent opera conductor as well.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2016, 06:08:35 AM
He was an excellent opera conductor as well.
Particularly good in opera, I would say. He had a superb understanding of the voice.
Quote from: The new erato on January 27, 2016, 02:02:32 AM
Karajan was a very good conductor, at least in some major parts of the repertoire. He was also the first to understand the power of modern media (both written and musical) and how the music world had changed from the days of Furtwangler et al. Together with DGs media machine that made a powerful combo and explains why he divides opinion today. Less ego would have made him more universally (!) admired.
I like Karajan best in recordings of music that were outside of his usual German rep (Honegger 3, DSCH 10, Prokofiev 5, late Sibelius). Whereas in the German rep, I find him quite ordinary.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 27, 2016, 08:16:37 AM
I like Karajan best in recordings of music that were outside of his usual German rep (Honegger 3, DSCH 10, Prokofiev 5, late Sibelius). Whereas in the German rep, I find him quite ordinary.
I find him best in Strauss and Bruckner. The Honegger you mention is exceprtonal, the others seems always to have gathered some controversy. Certainly I prefer my Shostakovich with less shine and glam. And his Nielsen disc is downright odd, though I haven't heard it for a long time.
I see everybody is treating Ivan Hewett as a figure of scorn, but in fact he wrote an interesting book called "Music: Healing the Rift," which is somewhat rambling and awkwardly written, but worth reading for its comments on the problems facing classical music in our modern age. If you read it, you will see he knows his Cage and Stockhausen, and is by no means as dismissive of them and their cohorts as the above brief quotations would suggest.
Quote from: The new erato on January 27, 2016, 04:53:05 AM
Try Shiny Happy People. They do lots og stuff in minor but Iæve never found them very deprssing, Now the Smiths (which I have complete) I find definitely more depressing.
"Shiny Happy People" is good, I'll admit. But I can't imagine Stipe writing lyrics such as "Sweetness, I was only joking when I said I'd like to smash every tooth in your head".
I started this thread because I wanted to know if Hewett's opinion of those particular artists reflected a general consensus; judging from your replies it seems that it does not.
The only name on his list that I own recordings by is Ashkenazy, whose version of Schubert's piano trios with Zukerman and Harrell is one of my favorites, so I won't be throwing it out.
Maazel made two of my favorite recordingsl: that of Ravel's L'enfant et les sortileges with the Orchestre National de la R.T.F and Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet with The Cleveland Orchestra.
Maazel's recordings of Mendelssohn's Symphonies are pretty amazing also.
Maazel, Ashkenazy and Karajan have all made impressive Sibelius recordings.
Maybe Hewitt just doesn't like Sibelius.
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 26, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
In an article in the Telegraph titled "The 168 best classical music recordings", http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/best-classical-recordings/ the author, Ivan Hewett, wrote:
I understand this advice should be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm curious: why do these people deserve shunning? I know Karajan's style has fallen out of favor, but I've never heard the rest disparaged before. (In fact, I've never even heard of Mrs Mills and Richard Clayderman before.)
I never cared for Karajan in the classical [Beethoven and earlier] repertoire, and that was before the big trend for HIP performances; I've always preferred the 'leaner' approach to the Classical era rep.
There is little to avoid there, really, other than as per the dictates of your personal taste. Personal taste apart, I don't think many would readily discount or abandon Karajan's opera recordings, regardless if that is Mozart or later period rep. He was a superb conductor of opera and the vocal-orchestral rep, and with the cast of singers on so many of the recordings he did being some of the very best in recorded history, that is all a little too much to casually discount, lol.
I agree about Lang Lang, to me -- as another member here put it -- he is a parody of classical musicianship, and absolutely nothing more, even in his better moments; there have been and are better.
A colleague commented on Kissen that he is a hell of a pianist and musician, but many of his interpretations seem to falter especially in the ending, as if he did not know how to 'wrap it up,' even though it is 'in the score.'
The two pop references, I think, were a feeble attempt at further demeaning the classical personnel he listed prior, and meant to pass as 'humor'; whatever was meant, that bit is a total fail.
In an era where there are tons of 'critics' online, with their blogs vlogs, etc. and their having a mass amount more in print online than they have in respected journals, if published in journals at all, it is more like time to make a loooong list of online critics whose names should be avoided.
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 27, 2016, 06:57:57 PM
I started this thread because I wanted to know if Hewett's opinion of those particular artists reflected a general consensus; judging from your replies it seems that it does not.
You missed Hewett's (lame) joke: He named these names because they are all very famous and a newbie is very likely to encounter many of Karajan's as frequent recommendations and at least some of Kissin's and Lang Lang's will be advertised aggressively as well because they are famous living pianists.
So to some extent he is going
against a broad (but unsophisticated) consensus.
Ashkenazy's name is a bit of a puzzle here because as conductor he is no way as famous as Karajan still is and as a pianist his big days are over as well.
Similarly, Maazel made some very highly regarded recordings but later, from the 80s on or so, he came across as a perfectionist "cold fish" and he was also a sore loser because he had been too sure of becoming Karajan's successor in Berlin and shunned this orchestra for years after Abbado got the post. I have not heard much of his later stuff but the late 50s - late 60s recordings I have heard are almost all superb, some have been mentioned already. He excels at stuff like Ravel and Prokofieff but the early Mendelssohn 4+5, Schubert and LvB's 5+6 are very good (and in their day they must have been paragons of clarity and transparency, better than contemporary Karajan with the same orchestra)
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 26, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
In an article in the Telegraph titled "The 168 best classical music recordings", http://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/classical-music/best-classical-recordings/ the author, Ivan Hewett, wrote:
I understand this advice should be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm curious: why do these people deserve shunning? I know Karajan's style has fallen out of favor, but I've never heard the rest disparaged before. (In fact, I've never even heard of Mrs Mills and Richard Clayderman before.)
While I'm sure one can do fine without Lang Lang, pointing the beginning collector away from Karajan, Maazel and Ashkenazy without qualification is just stupid. All of them made fine recordings.
I suspect it is supposed to be a funny attempt at "bluff your way through pseudo-sophisticated intermission talk" (or fake it till you make it).
This seems true for the whole prologue (name-dropping with historical artists and ensembles only long-time listeners or collectors will recognize at all (like Cortot or the part-time Hollywood quartet) and avoiding more obvious stuff like Karajan or Kissin (one can even have both in a fairly soporific Tchaikovsky b flat minor concerto...). Or artists one could actually hear live on stage in 2016...
Quote from: Chronochromie on January 27, 2016, 07:44:16 PM
Maazel made two of my favorite recordingsl: that of Ravel's L'enfant et les sortileges with the Orchestre National de la R.T.F and Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet with The Cleveland Orchestra.
Maazel's live concert performance of that Ravel with the NY Phil was probably the best thing I ever heard him do, pure magic. And I love his VPO Sibelius symphony set too. He doesn't hold those last six chords of V for their full value, but then does anybody.
Can we all at least agree that Richard Clayderman was awful?
My abiding memory of a cassette of his I suffered through as a child was that 'Fur Elise' was played as if it was in 6/8 time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jGZbheKpgc
No-one, but no-one should put themselves forward as a professional musician while committing that kind of atrocity.
But Clayderman was never considered a serious classical artist, therefore, even considering all the contempt Karajan or Lang Lang might evoke, it IS a really low blow to mention them in one breath with Clayerman.
Quote from: orfeo on January 28, 2016, 03:29:29 AM
Can we all at least agree that Richard Clayderman was awful?
My abiding memory of a cassette of his I suffered through as a child was that 'Fur Elise' was played as if it was in 6/8 time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jGZbheKpgc
No-one, but no-one should put themselves forward as a professional musician while committing that kind of atrocity.
Professional means doing it for money. Richard undoubtedly did. Amateur means doing it for love.
To the OP: don't bother looking for consensus. There is almost never a consensus.
It's very easy for a beginner to fall into a "Karajan For Everything" rut -- maybe less so than it used to be, but I think it's still there. And so I appreciate his first rule, "No single conductor or performer is good at everything." But beyond that, his comments about Karajan amount to trolling. Of course nobody is going to throw all of his recordings away.
Ashkenazy and especially Levine are bizarre picks to accompany Karajan as "obvious choices." Ashkenazy does strike me as a "record everything" guy, but like Jo498 noted, he is not one of the highest-profile conductors. Levine is fairly selective in what he records, and everything I've heard from him is excellent. Again this feels like trolling. (FWIW my list of most obvious choices among conductors would look something like: Karajan, Solti, and Haitink, followed by Bernstein, Abbado, Rattle, Ormandy, Reiner, Szell. I'm probably forgetting somebody, but I think those are the conductors that an unselective beginner might end up with by default. At least some of them over-recorded, but all of them did some good stuff.)
Lists of recordings are fun to read and his is more interesting than most -- certainly way more interesting than the BBC Music list from a few years ago.
Quote from: ShineyMcShineShine on January 27, 2016, 06:50:15 PM
"Shiny Happy People" is good, I'll admit.
One of my least favorite R.E.M. songs (along with "It's the End of the World as We Know It" and "Losing My Religion").
Do you have spotify? I made a playlist (https://open.spotify.com/user/oldkentuckyshark/playlist/5UZIRwR6SFR8ePe2JvFlL7). A couple of those are covers, not all are upbeat, at least one is minor key, but I like them. ;) In one case ("Belong") I might be the only person who likes it. If you like "Shiny Happy People" then maybe start with "Superman." I'll probably sprinkle in some of their more depressing songs later.
For a beginner it is also not so easy to distinguish between two kinds of "obvious choices". Because almost every conductor recorded Beethoven or Brahms symphonies there can hardly be an obvious choice for them. Obvious usually means highly marketed or highly recommended.
But there is some repertoire that is or used to be far less recorded and "obvious choice" had a more plausible meaning there. Boult is in a much stronger sense an obvious choice for an Elgar or Vaughan Williams piece (and Kondrashin or Mravinsky at least used to be such for a lot of Shostakovich) than Karajan is for Beethoven's 9th or Solti for Mahler 6th.
Of course, by now there are usually far more choices available than only 25 years ago when I was a newbie. (I did not care about Elgar then but e.g. for Bruckner it basically was between Jochum, Karajan and Wand, plus a few single discs outside of complete cycles. There were probably more recordings but without the internet one would have to be an expert, not a newbie to even be aware of them.)
I think Karajan is an excellent conductor, particularly early in his career. He was also very good with opera. I have the EMI box and the 60s DGG box and there are a lot of really good records in there. I don't think there is anything wrong with Ashkenazy either. There are a lot of very good bargain priced Ashkenazy "twofers" that are a great place for beginning collectors to start.
Quote from: The new erato on January 28, 2016, 03:35:35 AM
Professional means doing it for money. Richard undoubtedly did. Amateur means doing it for love.
I know what professional means. But if you hire a professional plumber, a professional whatever you expect certain standards, otherwise you might as well do it yourself. There are a hell of a lot of musical standards Clayderman never met!
Quote from: Jo498 on January 27, 2016, 11:19:13 PM
You missed Hewett's (lame) joke: He named these names because they are all very famous and a newbie is very likely to encounter many of Karajan's as frequent recommendations and at least some of Kissin's and Lang Lang's will be advertised aggressively as well because they are famous living pianists.
So to some extent he is going against a broad (but unsophisticated) consensus.
I understood all that, and I recognized that Hewett has a sense of humor, but I fail to see the joke in that particular collection of names, aside perhaps from including Mrs Mills (now that I know who she is). And aggressive marketing can hardly be his only criteria for inclusion, since there are plenty of over-hyped names that are more likely candidates.
I don't think Karajan, Lang Lang or Kissin are universally loved by classical music fans....
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 06:14:35 PM
I don't think Karajan, Lang Lang or Kissin are universally loved by classical music fans....
No, but who is. I think LL is a showboat, but Kissin has real musicality. I was especially impressed that he chose to base a recent recital (which I missed) totally around the work of little-known 20th-century Jewish composers.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 07:31:26 PM
No, but who is. I think LL is a showboat, but Kissin has real musicality. I was especially impressed that he chose to base a recent recital (which I missed) totally around the work of little-known 20th-century Jewish composers.
I think the pianist named like a panda is more than a showboat. More precisely, he seems to love the music he plays and showboats because he wants to get other people....say, the sort of people who think Star Wars is classical music...to discover that music.
And he can produce stuff with musical value. His most recent recording features Tchaikovsky's Seasons, and was reasonably well done.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 28, 2016, 07:50:25 PM
I think the pianist named like a panda is more than a showboat. More precisely, he seems to love the music he plays and showboats because he wants to get other people....say, the sort of people who think Star Wars is classical music...to discover that music.
And he can produce stuff with musical value. His most recent recording features Tchaikovsky's Seasons, and was reasonably well done.
Note to self: Teach panda to play piano, call Sony.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 07:31:26 PM
No, but who is. I think LL is a showboat, but Kissin has real musicality. I was especially impressed that he chose to base a recent recital (which I missed) totally around the work of little-known 20th-century Jewish composers.
q
Well, then there's the proof that Kissin isn't so much of a showboat like Lang Lang is!
Quote from: Daverz on January 28, 2016, 12:26:52 AM
While I'm sure one can do fine without Lang Lang, pointing the beginning collector away from Karajan, Maazel and Ashkenazy without qualification is just stupid. All of them made fine recordings.
HEAR, HEAR and agreed -- if you at all take the responsibility of a critic to inform, you don't go turning off the general reader to some of the better and really good stuff unless you are going to give out a full list of your alternate recommendations; without that action, it is an irresponsible, negative, and counterproductive bit of business -- and massively self-indulgent.
Quote from: Chronochromie on January 27, 2016, 07:44:16 PM
Maazel made two of my favorite recordingsl: that of Ravel's L'enfant et les sortileges with the Orchestre National de la R.T.F and Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet with The Cleveland Orchestra.
... and that L'enfant et les sortileges has never been bettered; it is about as near perfection as it gets... other performances are likely to be only different, and more than unlikely to ever be better than.
Quote from: Jo498 on January 28, 2016, 01:01:49 AM
I suspect it is supposed to be a funny attempt at "bluff your way through pseudo-sophisticated intermission talk" (or fake it till you make it).
This seems true for the whole prologue (name-dropping with historical artists and ensembles only long-time listeners or collectors will recognize at all (like Cortot or the part-time Hollywood quartet) and avoiding more obvious stuff like Karajan or Kissin (one can even have both in a fairly soporific Tchaikovsky b flat minor concerto...). Or artists one could actually hear live on stage in 2016...
Insider jokes and relatively mean-spirited lampoons, especially when published as allegedly to the public, are profoundly snarky and as profoundly narcissist-self indulgent.
That kind of behavior, once made public, can and does completely undermine what credibility the person who does it may have, even if that perp is supposed to otherwise be well informed. Pull that sort of stunt just once, it is enough to completely and forever discount and dismiss whatever they may have had of worth. -- Life is far too short, everyone's time far to precious, and there are others just as qualified and well informed to go to for the exact same resources.
Quote from: orfeo on January 28, 2016, 03:29:29 AM
Can we all at least agree that Richard Clayderman was awful?
My abiding memory of a cassette of his I suffered through as a child was that 'Fur Elise' was played as if it was in 6/8 time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jGZbheKpgc
No-one, but no-one should put themselves forward as a professional musician while committing that kind of atrocity.
B...b...but
people luff him. ;)
I love Kissin's performance on the Beethoven Choral Fantasy from the early 90s New Year's Eve DG CD. I haven't heard much else by him - but if that was typical ...
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 11:15:13 PM
...to the pubic at large...
Uh, you might want to edit that, Monsieur. :laugh:
Quote from: jochanaan on January 29, 2016, 04:39:41 PM
Uh, you might want to edit that, Monsieur. :laugh:
I swear that was just a typo, Dr. Freud.
lol... thanks.
Corrected; I also took out the 'at large,' -- made 'the public' sound like a bunch of sought-after escaped criminals on the lam :)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 29, 2016, 06:26:54 PM
I also took out the 'at large,' -- made 'the public' sound like a bunch of sought-after escaped criminals on the lam :)
Or it might have been an unintended commentary on their body-mass index. :laugh:
Quote from: Jo498 on January 27, 2016, 12:49:38 AM
The "problem" with Karajan is rather that until fairly recently (o.k. maybe more like 25 years ago) when you entered a record/CD store you were flooded with his recordings and many of them were also standard recommendations because he simply was by far the most famous conductor (alive or recently deceased). Some connoisseurs avoided them, of course, or at least were much more picky. And while I am everything but a Karajan fan (and for several reason I only "grew up" on a couple of his recordings) it also seems silly to avoid them on purpose. For Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Strauss one could probably do worse than get Karajan's recordings (one can usually also do better).
I really like his recordings of the
Second Viennese School. Top-drawer performances. Also, his Honegger recording of
Symphonies 2 & 3 have really opened my ears.