http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/28/arts/music/new-york-philharmonic-taps-jaap-van-zweden-as-its-next-maestro.html
"The New York Philharmonic announced on Wednesday that it was turning to Jaap van Zweden, an intense, exacting Dutch conductor, to be its next music director and guide it through the costly renovation of its hall, two seasons of exile and, if all goes well, a triumphant return to Lincoln Center.
"The appointment of Mr. van Zweden, 55, whose name is pronounced Yahp van ZVAY-den and who is currently the music director of the Dallas Symphony Orchestra and the Hong Kong Philharmonic Orchestra, ends nearly a year of speculation about who would succeed Alan Gilbert when he steps down from the position next year."
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As a Dallas resident, I've seen Jaap a few times and I've also had conversations with two DSO members about his style. He is one of our most underrated conductors for sure, a guy who brings great musical integrity to the classic repertoire. But those adjectives, "intense, exacting," are very apt: he is an old-fashioned drill sergeant in rehearsal, with a very specific vision for a work and not willing to stop until that vision is achieved. The musicians I spoke to were too polite to say anything negative about him, especially because they had deep respect for why he is the way he is and the results he achieves, but the subtext of "brilliant asshole" is there.
Which makes him part of a long, glorious tradition!
During 2017-18, Jaap will be the full-time music director in New York, Dallas, AND Hong Kong. He leaves Dallas in summer 2018 and Hong Kong in summer 2019.
Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2016, 08:39:00 AM
During 2017-18, Jaap will be the full-time music director in New York, Dallas, AND Hong Kong. He leaves Dallas in summer 2018 and Hong Kong in summer 2019.
It says he "will become the Philharmonic's music director designate in the 2017-18 season, and begin his five-year contract as music director in the 2018-19 season." At the NYPO site, it explains that "As Music Director Designate in the 2017–18 season, Jaap van Zweden will conduct several weeks of concerts. As Music Director beginning in 2018–19, he will conduct the Orchestra for 12 weeks each year."
So only about half time that first year. Still, a lot to do.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2016, 08:46:17 AM
It says he "will become the Philharmonic's music director designate in the 2017-18 season, and begin his five-year contract as music director in the 2018-19 season." At the NYPO site, it explains that "As Music Director Designate in the 2017–18 season, Jaap van Zweden will conduct several weeks of concerts. As Music Director beginning in 2018–19, he will conduct the Orchestra for 12 weeks each year."
So only about half time that first year. Still, a lot to do.
Oh whoops, sorry. It's a lot of jobs to keep track of!
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2016, 08:46:17 AM
So only about half time that first year. Still, a lot to do.
God help us if this becomes "the new normal." Either that, or a Music Director leading the organization 23% of the year. (Twelve weeks? Seriously? Nice work, if you can get it.)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 27, 2016, 09:30:22 AM
God help us if this becomes "the new normal." Either that, or a Music Director leading the organization 23% of the year. (Twelve weeks? Seriously? Nice work, if you can get it.)
Well, there must be some sort of commitment to help raise money. I imagine that will take time too. Perhaps more than the conducting?
A commentary on the New Yorker website.
A further thought: when the remarkable Carlos Moseley was in charge, in the sixties and seventies, the Philharmonic pursued a consistent vision. Bernstein and Boulez were very different personalities, but they both believed in modernizing the orchestra, and took steps to achieve that goal. Since then, the Philharmonic's choices have been more reactive than purposeful. When Boulez was perceived as too cool and controlling, they picked the effusive Zubin Mehta. When Mehta was perceived as lacking in discipline, they chose the taskmaster Kurt Masur. When Masur was seen as too domineering, they went for Lorin Maazel, a minimalist in rehearsal. When Maazel was seen as too unadventurous, they chose Alan Gilbert. When Gilbert was thought to be limited in his approach to mainstream repertory, they chose van Zweden. And so on: this is an orchestra going around in circles, lacking clear direction.
Maazel unadventurous? He took them to DPRK didn't he?
You know what....I think they should have chosen someone like Matthias Pintscher. I believe he currently resides in NYC and from what I can tell he's a truly brilliant conductor, better than most around.
I'm currently sampling some of his stuff on Spotify......I am really liking what I'm hearing actually!
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
Maazel unadventurous? He took them to DPRK didn't he?
You know what....I think they should have chosen someone like Matthias Pintscher. I believe he currently resides in NYC and from what I can tell he's a truly brilliant conductor, better than most around.
Well, I agree MP is very good. He has a great Pli selon pli by Boulez you can hear on YouTube, for instance. But Jaap's biggest problem, IMO, is not so much repertoire as keeping the orchestra going during a hiatus where it will no longer be playing at Philharmonic - then Avery Fisher - now David Geffen Hall. The NY Times says the renovation "will reconfigure the auditorium and update the common areas" (well, that's not the problem, the common areas are fine); another source says there will be an "extensive redesign of the building's interior and, like the previous renovations, will aim to improve the hall's acoustics," which are indeed the problem with a hall that for all the tweaking remains dry and uneven. That said, I doubt P-AF-DG will ever have the natural bloom of Carnegie Hall or the Met Opera (if you know where to sit), or for that matter the Rogers Auditorium at the Met Museum or Borden Hall at the Manhattan School of Music. Fingers crossed. When the NYC Opera abandoned its Lincoln Center home and started playing all over the city, that was one factor that led to its demise. I doubt that will happen to the NYPhil, but it's a challenge.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 27, 2016, 09:30:22 AM
God help us if this becomes "the new normal."
It already is.
Quote from: The new erato on January 27, 2016, 10:23:55 AM
A commentary on the New Yorker website.
A further thought: when the remarkable Carlos Moseley was in charge, in the sixties and seventies, the Philharmonic pursued a consistent vision. Bernstein and Boulez were very different personalities, but they both believed in modernizing the orchestra, and took steps to achieve that goal. Since then, the Philharmonic's choices have been more reactive than purposeful. When Boulez was perceived as too cool and controlling, they picked the effusive Zubin Mehta. When Mehta was perceived as lacking in discipline, they chose the taskmaster Kurt Masur. When Masur was seen as too domineering, they went for Lorin Maazel, a minimalist in rehearsal. When Maazel was seen as too unadventurous, they chose Alan Gilbert. When Gilbert was thought to be limited in his approach to mainstream repertory, they chose van Zweden. And so on: this is an orchestra going around in circles, lacking clear direction.
I'm assuming this is your own commentary rather than a quote from The New Yorker. Whatever the case, it strikes home. I would have preferred Salonen myself, but I can understand why Gilbert had to go. He was a great example of someone with great ideas but not always the spark to carry them off. His semi-staged concert performances of Ligeti's Grand Macabre, Janacek's Cunning Little Vixen, and Stravinsky's Petrouchka were genuine triumphs, but the Gruppen evening at the acoustically disastrous Park Avenue Armory was a near train-wreck, and those performances I heard of standard repertoire were generally routine. Who has ever made an Alan Gilbert recording a first choice for anything? To paraphrase Archie Bunker, "Mister, we could use a man like Lenny Bernstein again."
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
Maazel unadventurous? He took them to DPRK didn't he?
You know what....I think they should have chosen someone like Matthias Pintscher. I believe he currently resides in NYC and from what I can tell he's a truly brilliant conductor, better than most around.
Personally, I'd like to see Edward Gardner get it at some point. I think he has honed his conducting chops now and is ready for the 'big leagues.' :) His repertoire is also quite vast: from Mendelssohn to Verdi to Janáček to Szymanowski to Lutoslawski, etc.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 27, 2016, 12:37:29 PM
I'm assuming this is your own commentary rather than a quote from The New Yorker. Whatever the case, it strikes home. I would have preferred Salonen myself, but I can understand why Gilbert had to go. He was a great example of someone with great ideas but not always the spark to carry them off. His semi-staged concert performances of Ligeti's Grand Macabre, Janacek's Cunning Little Vixen, and Stravinsky's Petrouchka were genuine triumphs, but the Gruppen evening at the acoustically disastrous Park Avenue Armory was a near train-wreck, and those performances I heard of standard repertoire were generally routine. Who has ever made an Alan Gilbert recording a first choice for anything? To paraphrase Archie Bunker, "Mister, we could use a man like Lenny Bernstein again."
I agree. I don't think Gilbert's tenure with the NYPO was very impressive. I mean he did some interesting things which you mentioned, but I just don't think he's an aggressive enough conductor for them and all of the Gilbert recordings that I do own have been disappointing. His Nielsen cycle was completely lackluster.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 27, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
It already is.
And has been for some time. :(
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 27, 2016, 12:37:29 PM
...To paraphrase Archie Bunker, "Mister, we could use a man like Lenny Bernstein again."
Amen! But there was no one like Lenny.
Quote from: jochanaan on January 27, 2016, 04:23:41 PM
Amen! But there was no one like Lenny.
True of every great artist (not to take anything at all away from
Lenny, one of the Commonwealth's favorite sons).
Pfft. Another immigrant taking a job from an American.
Quote from: Todd on January 27, 2016, 05:21:28 PM
Pfft. Another immigrant taking a job from an American.
I can't think of any Native American conductors, can you? 8)
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 27, 2016, 03:35:17 PM
Personally, I'd like to see Edward Gardner get it at some point. I think he has honed his conducting chops now and is ready for the 'big leagues.' :) His repertoire is also quite vast: from Mendelssohn to Verdi to Janáček to Szymanowski to Lutoslawski, etc.
I haven't yet explored Gardner's recordings. I've planned to ever since I started liking the Brits a little more......
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 05:51:04 PM
I can't think of any Native American conductors, can you? 8)
(http://cdn.lightgalleries.net/4bd5ebf48f2b8/images/port-tim-long-1.jpg)
Timothy Long.
Quote from: Todd on January 27, 2016, 05:57:44 PM
(http://cdn.lightgalleries.net/4bd5ebf48f2b8/images/port-tim-long-1.jpg)
Timothy Long.
Thanks for this! I'll look this guy up....has he performed with NYPO? :)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 06:10:06 PM
....has he performed with NYPO? :)
Don't know for sure. I'd guess not.
Quote from: Todd on January 27, 2016, 06:14:52 PM
Don't know for sure. I'd guess not.
He has conducted New York City Opera.....unfortunately I can't find much to listen to of his conducting. Oh well. I was hoping to listen to stuff for, yet another conductor that comes from the USA because I don't know many at all.
Quote from: karlhenning on January 27, 2016, 09:30:22 AM
God help us if this becomes "the new normal." Either that, or a Music Director leading the organization 23% of the year. (Twelve weeks? Seriously? Nice work, if you can get it.)
This is and has been a 'new kind of normal,' and it is not enough, imo, to either better, shape up and tune a good band into a great one, or enough to keep any orchestra in a groove of one leader's sensibility for that band to have
its more distinctive sound.The in demand and higher-paid conductor is often enough jetting about the globe, I'm sure for the conductor not only engaging, somewhat exhausting, but also lucrative. Salaries have to include first-class air transport, an upscale condo or home in each location, etc. This ramps up the budget expenditures of many an orchestra not in the greatest of economic shape to begin with.
The only way to change that it is for orchestral organizations to change the requirement when hiring, i.e. the job be near to full time during the full season, with a handful of allowances for the prime conductor to guest conduct elsewhere.
James Conlon never got a major gig in the US and he's American. But that may be more due to the fact that he prefers to work in Europe.
Quote from: Todd on January 27, 2016, 06:14:52 PM
Don't know for sure. I'd guess not.
If you think he has, there's a bridge I could sell you.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 27, 2016, 06:22:42 PM
If you think he has, there's a bridge I could sell you.
I assume it ain't dental...
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 06:17:55 PM
Oh well. I was hoping to listen to stuff for, yet another conductor that comes from the USA because I don't know many at all.
James Levine, Leonard Slatkin, Kent Nagano, Michael Tilson Thomas, Dennis Russell Davies, Marin Alsop, Alan Gilbert, David Robertson . . .
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 05:53:05 PM
I haven't yet explored Gardner's recordings. I've planned to ever since I started liking the Brits a little more......
I'd say Gardner is more of a specialist in 20th Century music, but, like I said, his repertoire is spread out and is still growing. He's still one to watch for sure. Has had a successful career as an opera conductor as well in the UK.
Quote from: Todd on January 27, 2016, 06:26:30 PM
James Levine, Leonard Slatkin, Kent Nagano, Michael Tilson Thomas, Dennis Russell Davies, Marin Alsop, Alan Gilbert, David Robertson . . .
That's about how much I know actually :laugh:
Only a handful
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 27, 2016, 06:18:05 PM
This is and has been a 'new kind of normal,' and it is not enough, imo, to either better, shape up and tune a good band into a great one, or enough to keep any orchestra in a groove of one leader's sensibility for that
The only way to change that it is for orchestral organizations to change the requirement when hiring, i.e. the job be near to full time during the full season, with a handful of allowances for the prime conductor to guest conduct elsewhere.
Ah - but we want
names, big
names, or else we stay at home with our streaming services instead of going to concerts!
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 01:36:48 AM
A tooth grows in Brooklyn.
Another grows in Manhattan, thus the bridge...
Quote from: The new erato on January 28, 2016, 01:43:35 AM
Ah - but we want names, big names, or else we stay at home with our streaming services instead of going to concerts!
Fair enough, but when those concerts are costing $100 or more, not to mention transportation and dinner, you can hardly blame us. Someone after all has to subsidize the maestro's upscale homes and first-class airfare.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 27, 2016, 05:51:04 PM
I can't think of any Native American conductors, can you? 8)
JoAnn Falletta
Alondra de la Parra (American-Mexican, she was born in US, but lives in Mexico)
Anne Manson (not many recordings, and I think most are Philip Glass)
Laura Jackson
Robert Spano
Andrew Litton
Keith Lockhart
Joshua Bell (not really sure how he does, but he is head of Academy of St Martin in the Fields)
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on January 28, 2016, 03:10:20 AM
Fair enough, but when those concerts are costing $100 or more, not to mention transportation and dinner, you can hardly blame us. Someone after all has to subsidize the maestro's upscale homes and first-class airfare.
Totally agree. And I once saw an account (in Gramohone ) of the travels, wining and dining in one month of one of DG's executives. It's a wonder I can afford one of their discs at all. Now I understand why smaller labels who sells obscure repertoire in minuscule quantitis usually manage to survive, while the "greats" (irony) who sells (or used to sell) much larger volumes of a disc struggle and get bought up.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 03:12:37 AM
JoAnn Falletta
Alondra de la Parra (American-Mexican, she was born in US, but lives in Mexico)
Anne Manson (not many recordings, and I think most are Philip Glass)
Laura Jackson
Robert Spano
Andrew Litton
Keith Lockhart
Joshua Bell (not really sure how he does, but he is head of Academy of St Martin in the Fields)
They're Native American?
Quote from: karlhenning on January 28, 2016, 01:36:48 AM
A tooth grows in Brooklyn.
Quote from: springrite on January 28, 2016, 02:53:44 AM
Another grows in Manhattan, thus the bridge...
O.K. The two of you, stop that. Stop that right now!
However,
We Have A Winner.The Prizewinner is Springrite.
Quote from: Todd on January 28, 2016, 05:41:38 AM
They're Native American?
If you mean born in the US/American citizens, yes. If you mean, Hopi, Pueblo, etc. than no. But I assume the poster meant the first. Who do you think isn't American?
Isn't anyone who identifies as a resident/citizen of the USA American? Of course, Native Americans were there first and the people from other cultures came for various reasons and brought their own culture with them. One thing which I've been wondering (triggered a train of thought based on one earlier post in this thread) is when an immigrant of any kind loses the label of 'immigrant' (or foreigner etc.) and gains a kind of acceptance that allows them to be considered by others as 'American.' Is it through several generations of living in the USA? Is it through some kind of integration whereby one also has to leave behind their old culture and heritage?
I can tell you one thing and that is I am not American.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 05:52:14 AM
If you mean born in the US/American citizens, yes. If you mean, Hopi, Pueblo, etc. than no. But I assume the poster meant the first. Who do you think isn't American?
:laugh: When it comes to claiming our cultural heroes, it pretty much comes down to those citizens born in America and for the most part, raised American as well. I laugh and get a little stupified when 'muh fellow Amuhricins' start claiming the likes of Schoenberg or Stravinsky as 'one of our own.'
There are a few musicians where the line seems to have been moved, though.
Most think of pianist Emanuel Ax as an American, while a look at his history...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ax
...well, Manny is disqualified to run for U.S. president, anyway.
Painter Willem de Kooning came to the states when he was twenty-two, all formal training Dutch, and behind him, but is consistently called a ''Dutch American'' painter.
Composer / Conductor Lucas Foss is usually considered American, while he was a child prodigy born abroad who had some hefty early training there who immigrated to the U.S. with his family when he was fifteen, then continued his studies at Curtis, etc. With his more formative teen and conservatory years having been in the U.S. and his earliest surviving [or published, anyway] works written after that training and those being in a very ''American'' mannered neoclassical style, I and most others do consider him 'an American composer.' But, decide for yourself...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Foss
Some other considered 'American' composers immigrated later in their lives, with all their formative years and training having been while still abroad [ex. Ernst Bloch] I put that kind of background history in the 'Schoenberg / Stravinsky / Vittorio Riete, et alia bin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bloch#Biography
The claiming of our cultural heroes seems to have [some] movable lines.
I suppose the only time it would be absolutely critical a musician be born in the U.S. would be if they wanted to run for President. :)
I wonder....is Coates (one of my absolutely favourite supposedly American composers) regarded as American?
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 06:33:19 AM
I wonder....is Coates (one of my absolutely favourite supposedly American composers) regarded as American?
I thought he was a Brit! Oh wait you mean Gloria, don't you?
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 06:24:39 AM
Isn't anyone who identifies as a resident/citizen of the USA American? Of course, Native Americans were there first and the people from other cultures came for various reasons and brought their own culture with them. One thing which I've been wondering (triggered a train of thought based on one earlier post in this thread) is when an immigrant of any kind loses the label of 'immigrant' (or foreigner etc.) and gains a kind of acceptance that allows them to be considered by others as 'American.' Is it through several generations of living in the USA? Is it through some kind of integration whereby one also has to leave behind their old culture and heritage?
I can tell you one thing and that is I am not American.
I would say that you probably need to either live here most/all of your life or be a citizen (which can be odd if you were born here and soon moved away). This is why some composers who fled Europe their country can be considered American even if they were raised and trained elsewhere. It is a bit of slippery slope though. For example, Rachmaninov would usually be considered Russian, though he lived the second half of his life outside the US. He became an American citizen only shortly before he died.
Technically, an immigrant loses that status when they become a citizen. Whether it will be accepted by the community is a different question, probably linked to how easily you fit in to the community in which you live (and certain characteristics of that community). Xenophobia exists everywhere unfortunately.
On Coates, you mean Gloria Coates I assume? She is American, though she has lived abroad quite some time. If she still has an American passport, then it is a slam dunk. If she doesn't or would claim her adopted land, then it becomes more murky.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 06:33:19 AM
I wonder....is Coates (one of my absolutely favourite supposedly American composers) regarded as American?
A-yep. She moved to Germany at age twenty-nine, all her formative and upper level formal training taken and done in the states, with very American teachers, too.
I have not seen any item saying she has ever given up her American citizenship, having taken another, or having a dual citizenship. It is very likely she 'stays' American, and has been an official long-term resident in Germany.
Best regards.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 06:24:39 AMI can tell you one thing and that is I am not American.
Nope, our Antipodean colleague, your summer is our winter and vice versa :)
You are bound to compose music deploying a lot of inversions, then, right?
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 05:52:14 AM
If you mean born in the US/American citizens, yes. If you mean, Hopi, Pueblo, etc. than no. But I assume the poster meant the first. Who do you think isn't American?
When I see Native American capitalized the way it was capitalized, I think Native American as that phrase is commonly used today. I assume you are aware of the usage.
Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2016, 06:03:49 AMwhose name is pronounced Yahp van ZVAY-den
Yaahp vahn ZWAY-dun, I'd say. ;)
If you really want to incense the English to the point where they begin to sputter, tell them you think Handel is a German composer. >:D
Not a "barbaric Yaahp"?
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:50:24 AM
If you really want to incense the English to the point where they begin to sputter, tell them you think Handel is a German composer. >:D
:laugh: oh how very entertaining that will be!
Quote from: Todd on January 28, 2016, 08:05:09 AM
When I see Native American capitalized the way it was capitalized, I think Native American as that phrase is commonly used today. I assume you are aware of the usage.
He's an Aussie - one has to give them some slack. :)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 11:09:05 AM
He's an Aussie - one has to give them some slack. :)
Huh?
Quote from: Todd on January 28, 2016, 11:14:43 AM
Huh?
He's referring to ComposerOfAvantGarde, who's 18 (IIRC) and Australian.
Quote from: Brian on January 28, 2016, 11:18:09 AM
He's referring to ComposerOfAvantGarde, who's 18 (IIRC) and Australian.
Yeah, I get that, but I read English language publications from all over the English speaking world and the phrase Native American is used the same way in all of them, though less frequently in UK/Australian/NZ publications than in the US.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on January 28, 2016, 10:50:24 AMIf you really want to incense the English to the point where they begin to sputter, tell them you think Handel is a German composer. >:D
Händel, you mean.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2016, 11:09:05 AM
He's an Aussie - one has to give them some slack. :)
Aussies*
invented slack!
*that is, Aussies in the most common sense of the word (based more or less on the stereotype), but more specifically it is a philosophy...a way of life....just ask Bruce [g'day Bruce! How are ya Bruce! &c.]
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 12:16:00 PM
Aussies* invented slack!
*that is, Aussies in the most common sense of the word (based more or less on the stereotype), but more specifically it is a philosophy...a way of life....just ask Bruce [g'day Bruce! How are ya Bruce! &c.]
Ha! I was once trying to imitate an Aussie accent (without much success, mind you), when I was told by your fellow countrymen that I was speaking too formal and that the Aussie way of speaking is lazy. I needed to be lazier in my speech (ya instead of you, stop pronouncing last letter(s) in a word, etc). Then they told me to drink more beer and try again later! :)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on January 28, 2016, 12:16:00 PM
Aussies* invented slack!
*that is, Aussies in the most common sense of the word (based more or less on the stereotype), but more specifically it is a philosophy...a way of life....just ask Bruce [g'day Bruce! How are ya Bruce! &c.]
Do you mean they call everyone Bruce?
Norman Lebrecht has a predictably stupid, outraged, and wrong-headed reaction (http://slippedisc.com/2016/01/why-white-van-man-is-so-wrong-for-the-new-york-philharmonic/), while Manfred Honeck told the Pittsburgh newspaper that he thinks Jaap is a very good choice. Honeck says he was contacted, but like Salonen, he declined. He wants to finish his term in Pittsburgh unimpeded.
Players who have been accepted by major symphonic organizations are nearly all graduates of fine conservatories and music departments and have at least a masters degree in instrumental performance.
When a post for a position in these orchestras opens up, the number of qualified applicants often numbers between four to six hundred, from which between two to one hundred make it to final auditions.
I learned that the salary of a newly-hired last desk fiddle player in the Chicago Symphony starts at ca. one-hundred fourteen K per annum. The New York band probably compensates commensurately higher because of the crazy cost of living there.
These players are the top of the top. They have been coming up with nothing less than the most exacting 'best' all along the way. To assume they 'got by' with anything less than the most rigorous and demanding standards in their progression to holding those posts would be beyond silly.
What this is news of then is not really about the conductor; it is nothing more than an affected and postured whine, head tilted back, back of hand to forehead, ''Ooooh, he is soooo demanding.''
I don't buy this catty dis dish on Maestro van Zweden for -- a New York minute. :laugh:
Quote from: Brian on January 28, 2016, 02:59:44 PM
Norman Lebrecht has a predictably stupid, outraged, and wrong-headed reaction (http://slippedisc.com/2016/01/why-white-van-man-is-so-wrong-for-the-new-york-philharmonic/), while Manfred Honeck told the Pittsburgh newspaper that he thinks Jaap is a very good choice. Honeck says he was contacted, but like Salonen, he declined. He wants to finish his term in Pittsburgh unimpeded.
I read Lebrecht's piece, what an insane rant he had, even dafter than usual. Basically it sent me scurrying off to find some of the conductor's work and I found a terrific Bruckner 8th. I hope it all works out.
I saw back in the thread a suggestion that Edward Gardner is ready for the big time; I agree. I have seen lots of his live performances and he really is excellent and has a very wide repertoire.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 30, 2016, 11:51:50 AMI saw back in the thread a suggestion that Edward Gardner is ready for the big time; I agree. I have seen lots of his live performances and he really is excellent and has a very wide repertoire.
Mike
That was me who made the suggestion about Gardner. Lucky you that you've been able to see several of his performances. What concert with Gardner the best one you've seen?
He stepped in at short notice for Gerontius and that was memorable. He is very good in opera. He was chief conductor at English National Orchestra for some time, I saw a cracking Verdi Simon Boccanegra, Sibelius Kullervo, Peter Grimes, all vocal. Outside of the vocal I recall a muscular Beethoven 7th, Schubert Unfinished and some excellent Elgar. He has quite a wide repertoire which is reflected in his recordings. Not just a safe pair of hands, he gets under the skin of the pieces.
Mike
Where can I read the Lebrecht rant? It seems not to show up when I click the link.
http://slippedisc.com/why-white-van-man-is-so-wrong-for-the-new-york-philharmonic/
Let's see if this works.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on January 31, 2016, 11:39:16 AM
http://slippedisc.com/why-white-van-man-is-so-wrong-for-the-new-york-philharmonic/
Let's see if this works.
Mike
It works, I read it, and he seems to have made many points which are irrelevant to rehearsing and interpreting the music itself, some I agree with, but most of which seems to stem from either a CV worthy of Lebrecht's praise or political correctness (the latter I must say is of more importance in the world that we are today, but it has nothing to do with music whatsoever. The former I wouldn't even give much thought about if the conductor is musically very good and efficient and adaptable in rehearsals)
New York Isn't Thrilled to Welcome the Dallas Symphony's Conductor (http://www.dallasobserver.com/arts/new-york-isn-t-thrilled-to-welcome-the-dallas-symphony-s-conductor-7986356)
(by me)
A fair bit of ouch there.
I have the distinction of being blocked by Lebrecht from his Twitter account; the only block I have so far achieved. I simply asked him if he could stop moaning.....but that was enough for The Arbiter. I made several pleasant contacts by his action; people who felt that I had to be an OK guy if I was being blocked by Lebrecht. In retrospect I feel I should have asked him to be more accurate, or at least less inaccurate, in his reporting.
Mike
Quote from: Brian on February 01, 2016, 01:35:06 PM
New York Isn't Thrilled to Welcome the Dallas Symphony's Conductor (http://www.dallasobserver.com/arts/new-york-isn-t-thrilled-to-welcome-the-dallas-symphony-s-conductor-7986356)
(by me)
Nice angle. If Tommasini and Davidson have heard any of van Zweden's work -- either recorded or live -- it sure doesn't come across in their pieces. Davidson, particularly, borders on Lebrecht-style trolling. "Only" four concerts? Well, that's one more than the Berlin Philharmonic had with Petrenko. My sense is that all of those authors are looking at the selection through the lens of a post-Bernstein series of choices that mostly turned out to be underwhelming (at least in their view), that they would have been unhappy with anybody they could get. Ironically, there's also a clear sense of wishing they had just kept Gilbert.
Quote from: Pat B on February 01, 2016, 04:33:54 PM
Nice angle. If Tommasini and Davidson have heard any of van Zweden's work -- either recorded or live -- it sure doesn't come across in their pieces. Davidson, particularly, borders on Lebrecht-style trolling. "Only" four concerts? Well, that's one more than the Berlin Philharmonic had with Petrenko. My sense is that all of those authors are looking at the selection through the lens of a post-Bernstein series of choices that mostly turned out to be underwhelming (at least in their view), that they would have been unhappy with anybody they could get. Ironically, there's also a clear sense of wishing they had just kept Gilbert.
I don't think they liked Gilbert either. I think the problem is that they want either: 1) Someone young and precocious (so if he succeeds, they can call that person their own, and if they fail, well they'll happily bury the person too), 2) Someone famous and a star (because this is New York after all) or 3) Someone unique and different (extreme being good). And if they could hit 2 or 3 of these, all the better. That doesn't mean such a person would succeed, but such a conductor is the goal (at least in the press). If it sounds like someone you have heard of, you are right..
Heather Kurzbauer: In Praise of Jaap van Zweden (http://www.violinist.com/blog/hkurzbauer/20161/17333/)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 01, 2016, 09:43:21 PM
I don't think they liked Gilbert either.
Don't forget, they (whoever they might be) didn't always like Lenny in his NYP days. Harold Schonberg, then chief critic at the Times, wrote scathing reviews of Bernstein's podium histrionics and even his interpretations: "Toward the end of the Liszt concerto, he rose vertically into the air, à la Nijinsky, and hovered there a good fifteen seconds by the clock." I'm sorry to say that such attitudes prejudiced me mightily against Bernstein at that time, and as a result I heard him less often live than I might have. And yet those early recordings (the Eroica, the Berg 3 Pieces, the Ravel Concerto where he also played the solo, and of course much of the Mahler), though they might lack the ultimate finesse of some European conductors, now strike me as the work of an extraordinarily vital musician.
In his later days, Bernstein became much more stately and ponderous. One of my last Bernstein live concerts was an NYP Mahler 2 where I left feeling both overwhelmed and at the same time wondering if any other conductor could have gotten away with such a reading.
North Star, Good to read something written from a standpoint of knowledge. I assume he will now be slotted into NY programming from now until he takes over.
Mike
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 04:05:03 AM
Don't forget, they (whoever they might be) didn't always like Lenny in his NYP days. Harold Schonberg, then chief critic at the Times, wrote scathing reviews of Bernstein's podium histrionics and even his interpretations: "Toward the end of the Liszt concerto, he rose vertically into the air, à la Nijinsky, and hovered there a good fifteen seconds by the clock." I'm sorry to say that such attitudes prejudiced me mightily against Bernstein at that time, and as a result I heard him less often live than I might have. And yet those early recordings (the Eroica, the Berg 3 Pieces, the Ravel Concerto where he also played the solo, and of course much of the Mahler), though they might lack the ultimate finesse of some European conductors, now strike me as the work of an extraordinarily vital musician.
In his later days, Bernstein became much more stately and ponderous. One of my last Bernstein live concerts was an NYP Mahler 2 where I left feeling both overwhelmed and at the same time wondering if any other conductor could have gotten away with such a reading.
But he was always brilliant (if not as a conductor, as a composer) and was quite unique in the world of the conducting. And someone to criticize, in New York, is not necessarily a bad thing.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 01, 2016, 09:43:21 PM
I don't think they liked Gilbert either.
...until they hired his replacement.
Quote
I think the problem is that they want either: 1) Someone young and precocious (so if he succeeds, they can call that person their own, and if they fail, well they'll happily bury the person too), 2) Someone famous and a star (because this is New York after all) or 3) Someone unique and different (extreme being good). And if they could hit 2 or 3 of these, all the better. That doesn't mean such a person would succeed, but such a conductor is the goal (at least in the press). If it sounds like someone you have heard of, you are right..
Your list sounds like Dudamel. But Alex Ross's article mostly discusses Salonen, Noseda, and Rattle, and Tommasini fixates on Salonen. My sense that there was one overriding qualification: they wanted anybody they couldn't get. None of them even mentioned Honeck. Ross briefly mentioned Robertson and Alsop, but I am skeptical that either of them would have gone over any better than van Zweden.
With any luck that might be able to hire Trump now. Imagine that wonderful mane flying about.
Robertson is an entirely new name to me, I will have to look him up.
Mike
Jaap van Zweden Agrees to be Renamed "David Geffen" (http://www.submediant.com/2016/02/01/new-ny-phil-maestro-jaap-van-zweden-to-be-renamed-david-geffen/)
(joke)
(not by me)
Quote from: knight66 on February 01, 2016, 02:07:26 PM
A fair bit of ouch there.
I have the distinction of being blocked by Lebrecht from his Twitter account; the only block I have so far achieved. I simply asked him if he could stop moaning.....but that was enough for The Arbiter. I made several pleasant contacts by his action; people who felt that I had to be an OK guy if I was being blocked by Lebrecht. In retrospect I feel I should have asked him to be more accurate, or at least less inaccurate, in his reporting.
Mike
Hmmm...I need to find you on Twitter!
Brian, See your Twitter feed.
Mike
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 04:05:03 AM
Don't forget, they (whoever they might be) didn't always like Lenny in his NYP days. Harold Schonberg, then chief critic at the Times, wrote scathing reviews of Bernstein's podium histrionics and even his interpretations: "Toward the end of the Liszt concerto, he rose vertically into the air, à la Nijinsky, and hovered there a good fifteen seconds by the clock." I'm sorry to say that such attitudes prejudiced me mightily against Bernstein at that time, and as a result I heard him less often live than I might have. And yet those early recordings (the Eroica, the Berg 3 Pieces, the Ravel Concerto where he also played the solo, and of course much of the Mahler), though they might lack the ultimate finesse of some European conductors, now strike me as the work of an extraordinarily vital musician.
In his later days, Bernstein became much more stately and ponderous. One of my last Bernstein live concerts was an NYP Mahler 2 where I left feeling both overwhelmed and at the same time wondering if any other conductor could have gotten away with such a reading.
Bernstein recorded Berg's
Three Pieces for Orchestra? Where have I been?
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 02, 2016, 03:29:08 PM
Bernstein recorded Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra? Where have I been?
It is available only on a 10-CD special edition by the orchestra of historic radio broadcasts, and contains a grab-bag of pieces and conductors:
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1207179
It's not a cheap set, and you may or not find the whole compilation of interest. I will say only that I think this the best performance of the Berg I have ever heard, hands down.
The NYP also issued a 10-CD edition devoted solely to Bernstein:
http://www.amazon.com/New-York-Philharmonic-Bernstein-Live/dp/B000055XDG
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on February 02, 2016, 05:11:03 PM
It is available only on a 10-CD special edition by the orchestra of historic radio broadcasts, and contains a grab-bag of pieces and conductors:
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=1207179
It's not a cheap set, and you may or not find the whole compilation of interest. I will say only that I think this the best performance of the Berg I have ever heard, hands down.
The NYP also issued a 10-CD edition devoted solely to Bernstein:
http://www.amazon.com/New-York-Philharmonic-Bernstein-Live/dp/B000055XDG
Thanks, Sforzando. Yeah, that set is too rich for my blood.
And here, a similar but rather contrasting story. I assume Mr Lebrecht will be moist with pleasure.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/04/mirga-grazinyte-tyla-conductor-cbso-have-got-it-right-again
Migra Granzinyte-Tyla, 29 years old, appointed to follow Andris Nelsons to lead The Birmingham Symphony Orchestra.
Looks like it could be a good match.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on February 04, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
And here, a similar but rather contrasting story. I assume Mr Lebrecht will be moist with pleasure.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/04/mirga-grazinyte-tyla-conductor-cbso-have-got-it-right-again
Migra Granzinyte-Tyla, 29 years old, appointed to follow Andris Nelsons to lead The Birmingham Symphony Orchestra.
Looks like it could be a good match.
Mike
*wins Scrabble*
Quote from: knight66 on February 04, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
And here, a similar but rather contrasting story. I assume Mr Lebrecht will be moist with pleasure.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/04/mirga-grazinyte-tyla-conductor-cbso-have-got-it-right-again
Migra Granzinyte-Tyla, 29 years old, appointed to follow Andris Nelsons to lead The Birmingham Symphony Orchestra.
Looks like it could be a good match.
Mike
I'm looking forward to hearing how it turns out!
I have been scouting round the net and the tone is universally enthusiastic, which is encouraging. Frustratingly Youtube does not have her conducting any decent stretches of music. But the atmosphere is such a contrast from New York, refreshing.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on February 04, 2016, 11:34:19 AM
I have been scouting round the net and the tone is universally enthusiastic, which is encouraging. Frustratingly Youtube does not have her conducting any decent stretches of music. But the atmosphere is such a contrast from New York, refreshing.
Mike
I keep having the feeling that there is a huge amount of snobbery regarding what is happening in New York........the negative attitudes make me feel like they have some kind of wish for someone 'prestigious' with a CV of some massive conductor who is about to retire.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 04, 2016, 11:44:34 AM
I keep having the feeling that there is a huge amount of snobbery regarding what is happening in New York........the negative attitudes make me feel like they have some kind of wish for someone 'prestigious' with a CV of some massive conductor who is about to retire.
This is quite true across the spectrum of New York arts and culture. Even in athletics, New York teams and players face greater media scrutiny and criticism simply because they play in New York. There are some examples of prominent baseball players failing in New York, leaving to a lower-pressure environment where they feel more free, and doing very well.
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 04, 2016, 11:44:34 AM
I keep having the feeling that there is a huge amount of snobbery regarding what is happening in New York........the negative attitudes make me feel like they have some kind of wish for someone 'prestigious' with a CV of some massive conductor who is about to retire.
When an organization is being run well, like the Birminghammers, it's easier to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But when an organization is not being run well, everyone has an opinion. It's the same with sports teams and most businesses. It's not snobbery (perhaps with exceptions here and there) unless you don't consider NY to be the center of the universe. But New Yorkers know it is and act like it is. That's why it's called 'the city' or 'the city that never sleeps'.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 04, 2016, 11:59:14 AM
When an organization is being run well, like the Birminghammers, it's easier to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But when an organization is not being run well, everyone has an opinion. It's the same with sports teams and most businesses. It's not snobbery (perhaps with exceptions here and there) unless you don't consider NY to be the center of the universe. But New Yorkers know it is and act like it is. That's why it's called 'the city' or 'the city that never sleeps'.
To me it's just a big apple. I like mangoes better. 8)
Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 04, 2016, 11:59:14 AM
When an organization is being run well, like the Birminghammers, it's easier to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. But when an organization is not being run well, everyone has an opinion. It's the same with sports teams and most businesses. It's not snobbery (perhaps with exceptions here and there) unless you don't consider NY to be the center of the universe. But New Yorkers know it is and act like it is. That's why it's called 'the city' or 'the city that never sleeps'.
Interesting, perhaps New Yorkers have a sense of entitlement to the best and most remarkable available across the arts, sport etc. In Birmingham they really do love that orchestra and they have got the best out of and loyally supported all the conductors who havebeen appointed since Rattle. Having that exceptional hall helps, it is such an asset to the players and to the audience.
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on February 04, 2016, 12:09:36 PM
Interesting, perhaps New Yorkers have a sense of entitlement to the best and most remarkable available across the arts, sport etc.
I'd be very easily persuaded that this entitlement is a major factor. Similar how to if many kinds of artist achieve prominence in the United States, they are expected to move to New York.
Quote from: Brian on February 04, 2016, 12:23:28 PM
I'd be very easily persuaded that this entitlement is a major factor. Similar how to if many kinds of artist achieve prominence in the United States, they are expected to move to New York.
I'm sure you've heard: 'If I can make it there, I'm gonna make it anywhere.' And there's a good reason for that.
I don't want to go to New York so THERE *blows raspberry at the NYC sense of entitlement* :P
Well well well, look what arrives next month!
(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/DSOLive007.gif)
(I could have gone to this concert, in theory, but tickets started at $150. So I went to the Houston Symphony's Mahler 3, just 1 week later, for $10 instead.)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 04, 2016, 05:50:51 PM
I don't want to go to New York so THERE *blows raspberry at the NYC sense of entitlement* :P
Hey now, I'm going on Wednesday!
Quote from: Brian on February 04, 2016, 06:58:56 PM
Well well well, look what arrives next month!
(http://cdn.naxos.com/SharedFiles/images/cds/others/DSOLive007.gif)
(I could have gone to this concert, in theory, but tickets started at $150. So I went to the Houston Symphony's Mahler 3, just 1 week later, for $10 instead.)
Hey now, I'm going on Wednesday!
WTF $150????????
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 04, 2016, 07:00:08 PM
WTF $150????????
My thoughts exactly! I was very happy to protest by patronizing the rival orchestra. :)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 04, 2016, 05:50:51 PM
I don't want to go to New York so THERE *blows raspberry at the NYC sense of entitlement* :P
Boston is much better. For instance, there is a higher probability of hearing Henningsmusik.
(And I was born there., :P)
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 04, 2016, 07:08:36 PM
Boston is much better. For instance, there is a higher probability of hearing Henningsmusik.
(And I was born there., :P)
Well, I was born in New York. So there. (Blows raspberry back.)
Quote from: ComposerOfAvantGarde on February 04, 2016, 05:50:51 PM
I don't want to go to New York so THERE *blows raspberry at the NYC sense of entitlement* :P
My dear young fellow, New York will not be the same without you.
Quote from: Brian on February 04, 2016, 07:04:15 PM
My thoughts exactly! I was very happy to protest by patronizing the rival orchestra. :)
Good idea.....Mahler 3 is fun to see live. I like the bit where some members of the audience (my family for example) fall asleep in the last movement and wake up in a daze when the applause starts. :laugh:
Yes, best to spend only $10 dollars if you are looking for a bit of a sleep. I went with a friend to see Tannhauser in Barcelona. My back problems were kicking in and I had taken some pain killers and muscle relaxants, also some wine. I remember most of Act 1, but waking up at the end of the opera, (there must have been intervals), my friend lent across and said, " Well that was an expensive snooze."
Mike
Quote from: knight66 on February 04, 2016, 07:23:28 AM
And here, a similar but rather contrasting story. I assume Mr Lebrecht will be moist with pleasure.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/feb/04/mirga-grazinyte-tyla-conductor-cbso-have-got-it-right-again
Migra Granzinyte-Tyla, 29 years old, appointed to follow Andris Nelsons to lead The Birmingham Symphony Orchestra.
Looks like it could be a good match.
Mike
I read that Gražinytė-Tyla was 'born into a musical family' in her native Lithuania, or the beautiful medieval city of Vilnius, to be more precise. Interestingly, that is exactly what Jaap van Zweden was not - as he stems from a lower class background and was only 'discovered' in his youth as a musical talent by others. I think his unusual background is felt in his ambition (in the musical sense I mean).
Jesus Christ, New York, what is this graphic design? I think we officially get to take him back after this atrocity.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSoY-_UXUAA-Nmc.jpg)
Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2018, 08:28:42 AM
Jesus Christ, New York, what is this graphic design? I think we officially get to take him back after this atrocity.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSoY-_UXUAA-Nmc.jpg)
I think it's kinda cool. Not 'cool hanging in my house', but 'cool waiting in the subway station.'
Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2018, 08:28:42 AM
Jesus Christ, New York, what is this graphic design? I think we officially get to take him back after this atrocity.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSoY-_UXUAA-Nmc.jpg)
That's a lot of Jaap.
I'm already lamenting the departure of Alan Gilbert. :'(