The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of [appreciating] beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi)
Bach: Art of Fugue
Schubert: Symphony 8
Mahler: Symphony 10
Mozart: Requiem
Bruckner: Symphony 9
For a start. You may notice a pattern there.
Oh, easy. The "big tune" from the first movement of Schubert's string quintet, D956.
I can't think of another example of "the beauty of impermanence" that's half as good. Maybe a piano miniature that's deliberately made to sound unfinished? Like that one Chopin mazurka in A minor. Or "Im wunderschönen Monat Mai".
As every music "vanishes" as soon as it has sounded, it seems that the "beauty of impermanence" is not a special feature.
I'm enjoying this with appropriate transience 0:)
"Characteristics of the wabi-sabi aesthetic include asymmetry, asperity (roughness or irregularity), simplicity, economy, austerity"
Any symphony by Havergal Brian composed in the last 20 years of his life 8)
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2016, 07:19:43 AM
"Characteristics of the wabi-sabi aesthetic include asymmetry, asperity (roughness or irregularity), simplicity, economy, austerity"
Sarge
Earle Brown's
December 1952?
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 18, 2016, 07:19:43 AM
"Characteristics of the wabi-sabi aesthetic include asymmetry, asperity (roughness or irregularity), simplicity, economy, austerity"
Any symphony by Havergal Brian composed in the last 20 years of his life 8)
Sarge
Sounds like Carl Ruggles to me.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2016, 03:44:28 AM
The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of [appreciating] beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi)
More gobbledygook.
Quote from: James on April 18, 2016, 03:08:44 PM
More gobbledygook.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qquujepIT_g/Ul6CtMIisdI/AAAAAAAAXR4/6e8wYIR-kIU/s1600/pot-and-kettke.jpg)
Quote from: Brian on April 18, 2016, 06:47:22 AM
I can't think of another example of "the beauty of impermanence" that's half as good.
[audio]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/intimate_sketches_8.mp3[/audio]
&/or
[audio]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/cavatina.mp3[/audio]
(Click the blue text that says "Re: Top 10 Most Wabi-Sabi Pieces you've heard" on the top of my post in order to make the audio player visible)
Quote from: amw on April 18, 2016, 03:20:06 PM
[audio]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/intimate_sketches_8.mp3[/audio]
&/or
[audio]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32084883/cavatina.mp3[/audio]
(Click the blue text that says "Re: Top 10 Most Wabi-Sabi Pieces you've heard" on the top of my post in order to make the audio player visible)
I don't see anything? ..
I think
Richard Wagner : Albumblatt (Elegie) - Sviatoslav Richter
http://www.youtube.com/v/CO1rGXhQFE8
I think Scriabin's Black Mass applies here:
https://www.youtube.com/v/qj1luIOQHLw
Another proposal, Brahms : Piano Concerto no.1 , II movement
http://www.youtube.com/v/Hodg7x0v5oc
I really love it, in this particular interpretation, Arrau makes it so mysterious, of an austere beauty, philosophical ...
What's so "wabi-sabi" about the cello tune in Schubert's quintet? Why impermanent? It's the most distinguishable "regular square tune" in the whole movement and it is repeated many times, so I don't quite get this. I'd rather say, it's one of the least "wabi-sabi" passages in that piece but I may not have grasped that concept well and as I said, I don't really understand how a musical theme/moment/passage could be anything else but fleeting and transient; this is simply the way of this art.
Whereas it might be unusual and interesting in art works that are usually "permanent", e.g. Michelangelos David vs. a wabisabi stone garden.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 18, 2016, 03:44:28 AM
The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of [appreciating] beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi)
Quote from: jamesMore gobbledygook.
Wow, you're on a roll here, aren't you? But again, there is no gobbledygook here. The only technical term in the post is "aesthetic," and surely those of us who spend most of our time with the arts can deal with a word like "aesthetic" without flippin out, can we not?
Otherwise, there is just "described," simple, "appreciating," simple, "beauty," very contentious term but still simple. And all three attributes--imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete--are simple and straighforward descriptors.
Only the term in the subject heading--Wabi-Sabi--comes even close to being gobbledygook.
The rest, again, is simply not.
What it looks like to me, if I may be allowed a wee bit conjecture here--and allowed to use "conjecture" without being accused of "gobbledygook" in return :P--you seem unwilling to address the concepts themselves, preferring to simply call names. And name-calling is just lazy. :D
Quote from: some guy on April 18, 2016, 11:55:03 PMWow, you're on a roll here, aren't you? But again, there is no gobbledygook here. The only technical term in the post is "aesthetic," and surely those of us who spend most of our time with the arts can deal with a word like "aesthetic" without flippin out, can we not?
Otherwise, there is just "described," simple, "appreciating," simple, "beauty," very contentious term but still simple. And all three attributes--imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete--are simple and straighforward descriptors.
Only the term in the subject heading--Wabi-Sabi--comes even close to being gobbledygook.
The rest, again, is simply not.
What it looks like to me, if I may be allowed a wee bit conjecture here--and allowed to use "conjecture" without being accused of "gobbledygook" in return :P--you seem unwilling to address the concepts themselves, preferring to simply call names. And name-calling is just lazy. :D
Boy oh boy you love to jabber.. ... you love words more than music - that's for sure.
Karl,
I feel as if this thread were made specifically for me.
And I have not taken advantage of it, yet.
I want to give you the best response I can. Some day.
For now, know that I appreciate your starting this thread, and in the next coupla weeks or so, after the festival in Barcelona and then the festival in Prague, and all the backlog of reviews yet unwritten, I will return to this thread with a real response. A suitable, a fitting, an appropriate response.
Thanks,
Michael
There is no rush. That is part of why it is.
Shogun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4c0MOoLUI4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4c0MOoLUI4)
(http://images.tempo.co/?id=179385&width=620)
(http://www.boutique-homes.com/wp-content/uploads/Boutique-Homes-Wabi-Sabi-Inspiration%282%29.jpg)
Quote from: Jo498 on April 18, 2016, 11:15:53 PM
What's so "wabi-sabi" about the cello tune in Schubert's quintet? Why impermanent? It's the most distinguishable "regular square tune" in the whole movement and it is repeated many times, so I don't quite get this. I'd rather say, it's one of the least "wabi-sabi" passages in that piece but I may not have grasped that concept well and as I said, I don't really understand how a musical theme/moment/passage could be anything else but fleeting and transient; this is simply the way of this art.
Whereas it might be unusual and interesting in art works that are usually "permanent", e.g. Michelangelos David vs. a wabisabi stone garden.
I'll admit it's a totally personal connection for me, to do with my own listening experience and the way my brain works. I appreciate the simplicity of that tune, and the way it does so much with so little. But also, the beauty is so captivating for me that already in the moment, I think about how the moment will be ending soon and will just be a memory again.
I'm enjoying this thread. (That is all.)
I will admit that if a piece named Wabi-Sabi ...... eventually appears in the HenningWerkeVerzeichnis, I would not be greatly surprised.
WabiSabi Waltz.....?
0:)
I think I'd follow the amw/Janacek cue and compose a suite of wabi-sabi piano miniatures, meself. Or even string quartet fragments.
I really have to focus to not always read "wasabi" in the title.
as for Schubert, I'd rather nominate a passage at the end of the slow movement of the G major quartet. This is overall a movemen oscillating between despair and rage about the desperate situation, but at the end there is a very brief moment of peace, like a glimpse of hope or so but very fragile. It's extremely moving and I think most people who know the piece will know the passage I mean.
I have been very interested in wabi-sabi in the last few years - I actually mention it a few times on my composer's thread (and Karl, it gets dug out in pianissimo too, did you notice?). It is art which focuses on what is natural, unforced, unvarnished, prone to decay; art which follows the grain and which does not try to impose itself. The aesthetic of wabi-sabi, which welcomes small imperfections and works with them, is not temperamentally very suited to the aesthetic of classical music, which is built around the idea of slowly perfecting a work until its corners are all smooth and stand the test of time, and which often functions as a statement of individuality and also, I suppose, of power (the composer's power to control material to their will, for a start).
For those sensible souls who haven't looked at my composer's thread: for a few years I was composing short pieces in a way which I felt was rather wabi-sabi. They deliberately went with the grain of the idea with its flow; they tried not to impose themselves; they were small and humble, mostly for solo piano or even for solo clavichord. They became so fragile that, in fact, eventually I pretty much stopped composing, and I've hardly written anything for quite a while now. But if I started again, it would be with pieces like that.
Music which seems to possess a wabi-sabi sense to me would be the obvious suspects - Cage, Takemitsu, Satie... EDIT....and Feldman, of course, too.
Quote from: Scion7 on April 19, 2016, 03:15:32 PM
Shogun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4c0MOoLUI4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4c0MOoLUI4)
(http://images.tempo.co/?id=179385&width=620)
(http://www.boutique-homes.com/wp-content/uploads/Boutique-Homes-Wabi-Sabi-Inspiration%282%29.jpg)
Takemitsu's soundtrack to
Ran gets the larger nod here I would think:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-PmsApBhzsss/TuymlIQYcwI/AAAAAAAAEAM/2W7ct2kMEV8/s0/Ran%252520%252528Ran%252529Ran%252520%252528Ran%252529.jpg)
An excerpt from Takemitsu's
Ran soundtrack:
https://www.youtube.com/v/9AihYYpfk8c
(http://www.theartsdesk.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/mast_image_square/mastimages/TORU%20TAKEMITSU_0.jpeg)
There are pretty different branches of Japanese thoughts that are put into "wabi-sabi". I am questioning the notion of putting the cosmic and Zen branches of buddhism together with the tea ceremony.
Anyway, if we are talking about the cosmic branch of buddhism, I would say that Henri Dutilleux "Tout un monde lointain" embodies perfectly its spirit
For the Zen branch, I think Messian "Le quatuor pour la fin du temps" gives the required serenity
For the ceremony of tea, it is the perfection of a simple gesture that should be evoqued. So why not Bach inventions: simple and precise
Quote from: Luke on April 20, 2016, 11:59:19 AM
I have been very interested in wabi-sabi in the last few years - I actually mention it a few times on my composer's thread (and Karl, it gets dug out in pianissimo too, did you notice?).
I did. I shouldn't be surprised if that recent read is what has kept the idea mid-mind.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 20, 2016, 10:30:16 AM
I'm enjoying this thread. (That is all.)
Very wabi-sabi of you. :)
I think of Bruckner's works in this context. Is it a coincidence that one of the greatest Bruckner conductors, Takashi Asahina, is Japanese?
Let's not confuse wabi-Sabi with Wasabi.
Quote from: springrite on April 21, 2016, 07:47:04 AM
Let's not confuse wabi-Sabi with Wasabi.
Do I hear the voice of experience here?
Quote from: jochanaan on April 21, 2016, 07:37:58 AM
I think of Bruckner's works in this context. Is it a coincidence that one of the greatest Bruckner conductors, Takashi Asahina, is Japanese?
You see, I don't get that. Not a slight on Bruckner at all, nor anyone else, but I don't see the connection between Bruckner and wabi-sabi.. It's as I said earlier - wabi-sabi is concerned in part with a humility and a willingness to be subservient to materials which doesn't match up to the aesthetics of classical music. Despite all the things which make Bruckner so very special and so different, in essence his symphonies and masses are still large scale works in which the composer wrests his material into large, imposing shapes concerned with symmetry and cumulative effect. There is a sense of struggle, of power being exerted, of mountains being climbed and climaxes attained, all of which is utterly wonderful but which doesn't accord with wabi-sabi. I have a good book on wabi-sabi by Andrew Juniper, which summarises it in the following way:
Quote from: Andrew JuniperThe term wabi sabi suggests such qualities as impermanence, humility, asymmetry, and imperfection. These underlying principles are diametrically opposed to those of their Western counterparts, whose values are rotted in a Helenic worldview that values permanence, grandeur, symmetry, and perfection.
Japanese art, infused with the spirit of wabi sabi, seeks beauty in the truths of the natural world, looking to nature for its inspiration. It refrains from all forms of intellectual entanglement, self-regard, and affectation in order to discover the unadorned truth of nature. Since nature can be defined by its asymmetry and random imperfection, wabi sabi seeks the purity of natural imperfection.
and elsewhere
Quote from: Andrew JuniperTaken from the Japanese words wabi, which translates to less is more, and sabi, which means attentive melancholy, wabi sabi refers to an awareness of the transient nature of earthly things and a corresponding pleasure in the things that bear the mark of this impermanence. As much a state of mind—an awareness of the things around us and an acceptance of our surroundings—as it is a design style, wabi sabi begs us to appreciate the simple beauty in life—a chipped vase, a quiet rainy day, the impermanence of all things.... For the Japanese, who have a long tradition of spiritual training and an appreciation for sublime simplicity, the beauty captured in the opening of a single bud or the patina of an antique bamboo vase will be far more evocative than an expression of wealth, power, or opulence.... Wabi sabi is an intuitive appreciation of a transient beauty in the physical world that reflects the irreversible flow of life in the spiritual world. It is an understated beauty that exists in the modest, rustic, imperfect, or even decayed, an aesthetic sensibility that finds a melancholic beauty on the impermanence of things.
Apart from composers like Cage, (some) Satie, Feldman and Takemitsu (who I mentioned earlier) I struggle to identify any of the 'big names' in classical music to whom this applies. Although earlier today it did strike me that something like the Bach cello suites might do - simple, humble and for the most part unshowy, working with the grain of its materials and their self-imposed limitations in a very natural way. Already by the violin Sonatas and Partitas, though, with their more frequently overt virtuosity and most extrovert use of form, I feel the wabi-sabi nature is being lost.
Just IMO of course.
Mompou's Musica callada comes to mind. Scelsi and Silvestrov, too.
As far as the big names, Bach's chorales and Schubert's piano works.
Many many lieder would qualify, I should think.
Quote from: North Star on April 23, 2016, 09:44:49 AM
Mompou's Musica callada comes to mind. Scelsi and Silvestrov, too.
Excellent suggestions. In the same spirit
https://www.youtube.com/v/JAVyKDDsM3s
https://www.youtube.com/v/Yu4KObwynSc
Lieders ? They tend to have a fair amount of intensity which I do not associate with Wabi Sabi. Maybe Fauré songs. But since I dont like most of them because of their lack of meanifulness...
I would go more for plaint chant - Guillaume de Machault, Josquin Desprez. Serene, peaceful music...
Quote from: North Star on April 23, 2016, 09:44:49 AM
Mompou's Musica callada comes to mind. Scelsi and Silvestrov, too.
Definitely. Those very Mompou pieces were one of the factors that pushed my own composing down the wabi sabi road, actually. And the unforced quality of something like Silvestrov's
Silent Songs is really very wabi sabi indeed. Scelsi, to me, is a little too specific in his notation and too 'inwardly-directed' to feel truly wabi sabi, though of course Tibet and Japan and Buddhism are vital in his music.
"The acceptance of transience and imperfection."
"Beauty that is 'imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete'."
"Asymmetry, asperity (roughness or irregularity), simplicity, economy, austerity, modesty, intimacy, and appreciation of the ingenuous integrity of natural objects and processes."
OK, Karl. I'm not ready to participate, yet, but I'm going to anyway. There is a huge project looming in my life that I can avoid for a few minutes longer if I do participate, so....
The two things that immediately sprang to my mind were improvisation and Sachiko M. Of course, Sachiko is a well-regarded improviser, so....
A lot of other things came crowding in as I thought about this, particularly what Cage once used to say about the purpose of music being to calm the mind, making it susceptible to divine influences. That word "calm" trips some people up, so Cage also explained (I do not have my books with me, so this is my recollection only) that that does not refer to any of the qualities of the music, which can be loud and abrasive (as in "asperity") but still serving to calm the mind.
An anecdote: I was driving from Redlands to San Diego with my youngest son and some of his friends. It's about a two hour trip. I put on a Merzbow CD at one point--pretty sure it was Venereology. My son went to sleep and then, when he woke up said "Merzbow is so soothing, isn't it?"
"Yes, son. Yes it is."
I think his comrades may have drawn other conclusions.
Well, it's hard to think about transience in the age of recording technology. But certainly imperfection. And who I think of first in that regard is Francisco Meirino, who has made a career out of the noises that broken audio equipment can make. One of his albums is entitled "Connections, Opportunities for Mistakes," which pretty well sums up the attitude.
Incomplete I think refers to a design decision not to happenstance, but I could be wrong about that one. Anyway, if I'm right, Schubert's eighth and Bruckner's ninth don't qualify because they were not designed to be incomplete. They were designed to be complete, so incompleteness is a flaw. I see incompleteness in the current context more as an idea, as an orientation--pieces that begin softly, for example, and then go on for awhile and then end. No formal or ostentatious ENDING as in Bill Walton's first symphony ( ;D) but just simply stopping. There is so much music like this, I wouldn't know where to begin. Perhaps mentioning Francisco means I already have. I heard went to a concert of Feldman's Three Voices a couple of days ago. It goes on for awhile and then just stops.
And that's just about time. 4'33" is incomplete in a sense. It does not supply any of the sounds you are likely to hear at a performance of it. They will happen, of course. But if there's any completing to do--making those sounds that happen into "a piece," for instance, you have to do that. If you're into that kind of thing. You can also just listen.
Well, this post is certainly incomplete. And probably rough and imperfect and asymmetrical, too. Kinda falls down on the simple, economical, and modest aspects, though. Heigh ho.
The nature of incompletion: a topic we have not exhausted.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2016, 03:17:21 AM
The nature of incompletion: a topic we have not exhausted.
You can easily picture me laughing out loud.
(My cat, nap disrupted, was not amused.)
Chopin's preludes are the first things to spring to mind. I know people who can't get into them precisely because many of them are gone before they've had a chance to register.
Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2016, 04:36:23 AM
Chopin's preludes are the first things to spring to mind. I know people who can't get into them precisely because many of them are gone before they've had a chance to register.
Nice.
I suppose we might append the
Prokofiev Op.22.
Surely Webern too, if we include Prokofiev and Chopin.
Well, except that, while Webern wrote miniatures, they are perfectly self-contained structures.
Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2016, 05:57:34 AM
Well, except that, while Webern wrote miniatures, they are perfectly self-contained structures.
True enough.
Quote from: Don King on April 25, 2016, 03:17:21 AM
The nature of incompletion: a topic we have not exhausted.
Reminds me of Boulez. This topic/thread gets my vote for one of the most ridiculous of all time at GMG.
Quote from: North Star on April 25, 2016, 07:33:05 AM
True enough.
Though I suppose we may still pursue the fractal angle ;)
Quote from: James on April 26, 2016, 03:10:35 AM
Reminds me of Boulez. This topic/thread gets my vote for one of the most ridiculous of all time at GMG.
I've been letting that sit unanswered for a few days, wondering if it was just me that found that post so bizarre. No one else has replied, so perhaps it was, then!
Though I often disagree with him in his assessment of certain composers, I 'get' why James dislikes them as virulently as he does. There are perfectly valid reasons for his tastes differing from mine WRT certain music. So that's fine, and I don't think I've ever really argued about any of those issues here. But this? It confuses me. I honestly do not understand why a thread which is utterly inoffensive, which is not concerned with any particular composer or even any particular style of music, and one which raises what I personally think are interesting and thought-provoking issues concerning musical aesthetics, should cause James to react in such an OTT way.
'One of the most ridiculous threads/topics of all time.' Really?
I don't post anywhere near as often at GMG as I once did. There are plenty of personal reasons for that of course - my life is so full and (right now) so stressful that I don't have the time or the peace of mind to spend carefully composing posts as I once did - but there is another reason, which is that I find I have less to say here these days. I've been on boards like this since 1998, and I've said everything so often. The old days of writing long, involved posts and getting mixed up in intense discussions on e.g. AC or the niceties of various methods of notating string harmonics are long gone. Life's travails have put those things into perspective, too, I have to say.
But sometimes a thread does enough to pique my interest. This is one of them. I find it fascinating. What interests me is what asking a question about a Japanese artistic theory reveals about the aesthetics of classical music. Maybe James is just uneasy with the idea of different aesthetic worlds, hence his dismissal of the thread, but I find it totally absorbing. It puts us out of our comfort zone, makes us reassess fundamentals. Wabi sabi is a complete philosophy of art, sufficient and perfect in itself. It is not really congruent with the aesthetic of classical music, but that doesn't lessen either. The difference between them is in their attitude to materials. Classical music is predicated on taking raw materials and using as much intervention as is necessary to make them into something flawless, perfect and imperishable - just as a raw block of marble can be carved into the Venus de Milo, for example. Wabi sabi art, OTOH, is predicated on the idea of only using as much intervention as is necessary to bring out the intrinsic qualities of the material, and letting flaws and imperfections speak for themselves - maybe more like the way Rodin would leave figures only roughly finished, seeming to emerge from raw stone, letting the natural lines in the stone find their own expression instead of bending them to 'The Will.' (That's not a great example, and I don't think Rodin is wabi sabi at all, really.) Extend this line to its furthest extreme and you reach art which makes no intervention on the materials whatsoever - a Cagean art which accepts materials as they are. I know James hates that idea, and though I don't feel as strongly as he does about it I recognise that as it's an extreme position it is possible to have an extreme view on it. But wabi sabi isn't that or anything like it, it is simply art which encourages us to work with nature and its imperfections, and not to try to tame them too severely. I don't really understand why that is so offensive.
For me this whole thread raises interesting questions which have a personal resonance. I have hardly composed any music for years, and the musical part of the reason behind this inactivity is that these days I feel the competing pull of these two aesthetics so strongly in me. I was born, brought up and trained in classical music; I know it, love it, breathe it, speak it, dream in it. It cannot be taken out of me, nor would I want it to. But (especially since things started going badly in my life about seven years ago) the quietness and humility of wabi sabi speaks to me so strongly that I cannot divorce it from my music either. And the two simply cannot co-exist. As I said in an earlier post, I managed, for a while to write some very intimate and 'natural' pieces, mostly for piano, which I think went in the right direction. But when I want to codify that method, or to expand it for larger forces, or to write longer pieces, it withers before my eyes - because those things are just not what wabi sabi does. This is the problem I have, and it goes to the heart of this thread, for me. The difficulty in finding ways to have these two equally wonderful aesthetics co-exist might not be something that has much interest for most people on this board, but nevertheless it exists, and that is why I find James' response so peculiar and also - as it dismissively disposes of something I have found of passionate and painful importance for a long time now - so personally resonant.
Limited intervention, yes. I guess that is part of what I am puttering with, in these recent essercizi in electronica. Intervening, certainly, but only as much as (I am trying to discover) serves the goal of beauty.
Luke with the Post of the Month, there - and with another reason why I'm thankful for anything you do write here, when you have the time/wherewithal to do so.
Quote from: Brian on April 28, 2016, 04:40:24 AM
Luke with the Post of the Month, there - and with another reason why I'm thankful for anything you do write here, when you have the time/wherewithal to do so.
And say us all, Amen.
Quote from: Luke on April 28, 2016, 03:35:17 AMWabi sabi art, OTOH, is predicated on the idea of only using as much intervention as is necessary to bring out the intrinsic qualities of the material, and letting flaws and imperfections speak for themselves.
Hey Luke .. read your post here. Sometimes I feel that our tendency (almost game) to use & graft words gets carried away. Things get murky, gray, redundant. It takes us away from the music. Without any of the fancy verbiage, what you describe in the quote above sounds like what happens in a lot of popular music(s) .. pop, rock, jazz etc.
In fact, there is plenty of music/performance that is imperfect at all levels of engagement. Advanced, or naive. I never heard of this 'wabi sabi' wording before and I don't think I needed to.
("wabi sabi") As say, a strict practice or approach to music making, I don't see it as a serious one. It's rather underdeveloped, almost stillborn. Too easy and lazy as well. Musicians should strive for better.
Quote from: Luke on April 23, 2016, 05:43:33 AM
You see, I don't get that. Not a slight on Bruckner at all, nor anyone else, but I don't see the connection between Bruckner and wabi-sabi.. It's as I said earlier - wabi-sabi is concerned in part with a humility and a willingness to be subservient to materials which doesn't match up to the aesthetics of classical music....
...but does match up to Bruckner's working methods. And perhaps one sees more wabi-sabi elements in his choral compositions.
In Beethoven's famous Fifth Symphony's first movement, there is in the beautifully-constructed coda an odd bar of dead silence that disrupts the "expected" phrase length and rhythm. Very wabi-sabi moment. 8)
Quote from: James on April 28, 2016, 03:27:55 PM
Hey Luke .. read your post here. Sometimes I feel that our tendency (almost game) to use & graft words gets carried away. Things get murky, gray, redundant. It takes us away from the music. Without any of the fancy verbiage, what you describe in the quote above sounds like what happens in a lot of popular music(s) .. pop, rock, jazz etc.
In fact, there is plenty of music/performance that is imperfect at all levels of engagement. Advanced, or naive. I never heard of this 'wabi sabi' wording before and I don't think I needed to.
("wabi sabi") As say, a strict practice or approach to music making, I don't see it as a serious one. It's rather underdeveloped, almost stillborn. Too easy and lazy as well. Musicians should strive for better.
I don't agree with all of this, James, but I see your points. Specifically I don't really agree that this is just throwing around words, 'fancy verbiage.' As I say, I have personally found that the competing claims of these two styles which mean so much to me have stymied my own composing to a large extent. So it is clear to me, at any rate, that something is going on here, and something which to me is worth exploring. Call these different aesthetics by different name if you want, but they certainly exist. And as wabi sabi has a venerable and well-documented history stretching back many centuries and closely allied to Zen Buddhism, it seems to me to be a term which sums up this particular aesthetic very well.
I see what you are saying re jazz, pop music etc. Certainly they place a far greater emphasis than classical music does on the acceptance of imperfections. Indeed they often welcome them as an integral part of the music. This is obviously particularly true of jazz. 'The grain' of an individual's voice or instrument, say, or even a failing in technique, lend this music expressive force which the smoothing out of these features would nullify. But even so, wrt
most pop music,
most jazz... I wouldn't see it falling into the same area as wabi sabi, simply because some of the other fundamental precepts of wabi sabi are at odds with those of jazz and pop. For instance, Wabi sabi eschews urgency and forcefully heightened impact; it does not use precise measures, rulers, set squares. Plastics and man-made materials are not used. Fluctuations in regularity are of the essence. Music which has a precisely regular beat, especially one reinforced by drums, and music which is synthesized/electified/amplified in order to impose itself, are not really in tune with the wabi sabi aesthetic, I would say. Of course there are countless examples of pop and jazz which
do fit closer to the wabi sabi ideal, of course - I'm thinking of obvious things like Blue in Green from Kind of Blue, probably because of Bill Evans' liner note which draws the parallel with a type of Japanese calligraphy which is very wabi sabi in essence. The 'unplugged' movement in pop music is/was a movement in the wabi sabi direction, too. But these are the exception to the general rule, IMO.
As for wabi sabi being 'stillborn' or 'under-developed,' I find that rather dismissive of a way of thinking and working which, as I say, has been around for hundreds of years and to which countless artists have dedicated their lives. Nor is it 'easy' - I can attest to that myself. But, hey, it's all only opinion.
Quote from: jochanaan on April 28, 2016, 07:51:57 PM
...but does match up to Bruckner's working methods. And perhaps one sees more wabi-sabi elements in his choral compositions.
In Beethoven's famous Fifth Symphony's first movement, there is in the beautifully-constructed coda an odd bar of dead silence that disrupts the "expected" phrase length and rhythm. Very wabi-sabi moment. 8)
Jo, I still don't see the Bruckner connection to wabi sabi. When you first made it, and knowing your posting history, I did guess that you might be thinking of the choral music at least as much as you were the symphonies, and reading your latest post early this morning I listened to the E minor Mass on the way to work this morning (loving every moment of it, of course). But I still can't see the connection.... or rather, I can see it, in the special purity and essential simplicity of Bruckner's language, and the man's essential humility, of course, but I still think this is outweighed by the other features. The repetition, the regularity, the carefully-graded teleological movement towards climax... And with Bruckner more than most composers, in fact, there is an obsessively strict regularity - I am talking about the literal bar-counting, which is another way of saying that Bruckner is here really wresting control of his materials, really concerned not to lose himself in them.
And if I had to choose one piece which was the opposite of wabi-sabi, it might well be Beethoven 5's first movement, simply because the piece is almost the poster boy for all the things wabi sabi isn't. It is a tremendous effort of Will and power - a piece almost entirely constructed around a single idea, relentlessly worked and repeated for all it is worth, in the service of a iron grip, towards a tumultuous, overwhelming climax. To me the pin-point placement of that silence you mention is an example of Beethoven playing with the listener's responses, holding their emotions in his control, pummelling, withholding... Incredible stuff, but not, to me, wabi sabi. :)
Der Leiermann.
Beethoven - Presto of op.130.
Quote from: Luke on April 29, 2016, 08:46:44 AMI don't agree with all of this, James, but I see your points. Specifically I don't really agree that this is just throwing around words, 'fancy verbiage.' As I say, I have personally found that the competing claims of these two styles which mean so much to me have stymied my own composing to a large extent. So it is clear to me, at any rate, that something is going on here, and something which to me is worth exploring. Call these different aesthetics by different name if you want, but they certainly exist. And as wabi sabi has a venerable and well-documented history stretching back many centuries and closely allied to Zen Buddhism, it seems to me to be a term which sums up this particular aesthetic very well.
Fancy verbiage as it has to be used in order to explain/justify things .. I don't really like this. Artists should find their own way (& learn from the best) .. they shouldn't worry about fitting within categories or camps.Quote from: Luke on April 29, 2016, 08:46:44 AMFor instance, Wabi sabi eschews urgency and forcefully heightened impact; it does not use precise measures, rulers, set squares. Plastics and man-made materials are not used. Fluctuations in regularity are of the essence. Music which has a precisely regular beat, especially one reinforced by drums, and music which is synthesized/electified/amplified in order to impose itself, are not really in tune with the wabi sabi aesthetic, I would say. Of course there are countless examples of pop and jazz which do fit closer to the wabi sabi ideal, of course - I'm thinking of obvious things like Blue in Green from Kind of Blue, probably because of Bill Evans' liner note which draws the parallel with a type of Japanese calligraphy which is very wabi sabi in essence. The 'unplugged' movement in pop music is/was a movement in the wabi sabi direction, too. But these are the exception to the general rule, IMO.
The best improv sounds like composition, so your Kind of Blue example is not that good. I would say jazz musicians are far more practiced/learned/engaged (level of intervention) in music & performance than the rest within popular musics, so further from wabi sabi .. than say even more naive/imperfect/crude music found within popular music where 'intervention', 'consciousness' usually sits or is minimal .. but then there, you certainly get life giving & joyous body rhythms .. and urgency, impact - which this "wabi-sabi" eschews. (making it sound even more dull & boring)
Anyway .. this "wabi-sabi", lots of rules & restrictions don't you think. Sounds ridiculous to be blunt and further dismissive.Quote from: Luke on April 29, 2016, 08:46:44 AMAs for wabi sabi being 'stillborn' or 'under-developed,' I find that rather dismissive of a way of thinking and working which, as I say, has been around for hundreds of years and to which countless artists have dedicated their lives. Nor is it 'easy' - I can attest to that myself. But, hey, it's all only opinion.
All very nice Luke - again, lots of talk here. Any musical results that illustrate the strength of this approach. Stuff that perhaps matches or compares to the very best, highly conscious, written composition?
Quote from: James on May 01, 2016, 03:56:35 AM
Fancy verbiage as it has to be used in order to explain/justify things .. I don't really like this. Artists should find their own way (& learn from the best) .. they shouldn't worry about fitting within categories or camps.
Well, that is precisely what I've tried to do. But when I've come up against problems, it is surely natural to try to analyse them, and part of analysis is to put names to things.
Quote from: James on May 01, 2016, 03:56:35 AMThe best improv sounds like composition, so your Kind of Blue example is not that good. I would say jazz musicians are far more practiced/learned/engaged (level of intervention) in music & performance than the rest within popular musics, so further from wabi sabi .. than say even more naive/imperfect/crude music found within popular music where 'intervention', 'consciousness' usually sits or is minimal .. but then there, you certainly get life giving & joyous body rhythms .. and urgency, impact - which this "wabi-sabi" eschews. (making it sound even more dull & boring)
It was you that said jazz sounded as if it fitted the definition of wabi sabi, not me. It was me that pointed out why it didn't, usually, so thanks for agreeing with me! ;)
That said, Bill Evans himself was the one that made the connection between Kind of Blue and Zen art (wabi sabi is 'the artistic expression of zen'), so my example was a response to that.
Quote from: James on May 01, 2016, 03:56:35 AMAnyway .. this "wabi-sabi", lots of rules & restrictions don't you think. Sounds ridiculous to be blunt and further dismissive.[/size][/font]
Not really, no. Keep it natural, don't force it, let it be itself, don't be too keen to make things regular and perfect. That's what it boils down to.
Quote from: James on May 01, 2016, 03:56:35 AMAll very nice Luke - again, lots of talk here. Any musical results that illustrate the strength of this approach. Stuff that perhaps matches or compares to the very best, highly conscious, written composition?
Well, the examples I gave in my first post are things I think of as wabi sabi in music (though wabi sabi, AFAIK, is generally applied to visual arts/crafts, not to music). Outside the few classical composers who have written music which IMO falls within the wabi sabi guidelines, obviously the ancient classical shakuhachi repertoire of Japan is about the closest music can get to wabi sabi.
Quote from: Luke on May 01, 2016, 05:02:14 AMIt was you that said jazz sounded as if it fitted the definition of wabi sabi, not me. It was me that pointed out why it didn't, usually, so thanks for agreeing with me! ;) at said, Bill Evans himself was the one that made the connection between Kind of Blue and Zen art (wabi sabi is 'the artistic expression of zen'), so my example was a response to that.
Well you sort-of agreed with me didn't you .. and a lot of it does though in certain regards, if we are to use that earlier group of words you used - parallels are easily drawn that way, making the 'words' game dodgy .. just not with that particular record. That tune sounds closer to Bill's love of the French impressionists (Debussy et al.) than anything else, despite what he says in liner notes.Quote from: Luke on May 01, 2016, 05:02:14 AMNot really, no. Keep it natural, don't force it, let it be itself, don't be too keen to make things regular and perfect. That's what it boils down to.
Honestly, to be harsh .. sounds likes b.s. What you've said here can apply to music making on the whole, and does. At all levels. Beginner, intermediate, advanced.
Perfecting technique, getting into the details, pushing yourself and having a regular routine (practice) are staples to getting better and having that all deeply ingrained so that it's as natural and organic as breathing so that one doesn't have to think about it, or force it during the process of creation. Not being perfect, but being the best you can be, and realizing goals as best you can. Of course, this doesn't exclude the part about listening back to yourself, seeing what can be improved, refined, developed etc. Employing critical faculties .. editing, outside views etc.Quote from: Luke on May 01, 2016, 05:02:14 AMWell, the examples I gave in my first post are things I think of as wabi sabi in music (though wabi sabi, AFAIK, is generally applied to visual arts/crafts, not to music). Outside the few classical composers who have written music which IMO falls within the wabi sabi guidelines, obviously the ancient classical shakuhachi repertoire of Japan is about the closest music can get to wabi sabi.
I went back and read ... I don't seen any specific creations listed that make the case, imported by Westerners or Japanese. At the end of the day, it is that which matters most - the rest is all talk. The deeds truly speak louder than words.
I'm sure I enjoy the irony of James telling anyone else (but particularly our Luke) "lots of talk here."
Debussy Syrinx.
Quote from: mszczuj on May 02, 2016, 09:45:49 AM
Debussy Syrinx.
That's a good one. As I was listening to the Danses sacrées et Profanes by Lily Laskine earlier today, it reminded me of the recording of traditional Japanese melodies for flute and harp they did together in 78 which is my collection. It's also on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/v/iD-a3b5jexs
I cant think of any better music to chill out.
The sociological nature of GMG is pretty revealing when you see how everybody piles up in the pessimism thread...
Its nice to see that this thread takes the opposite route...
Takemitsu's I Hear The Water Dreaming certainly applies here I think:
https://www.youtube.com/v/hqh1yqgf6lc