Okay, so if you were cast into a purgatory of suffering, where one piece of music was repeated back to back for ten thousands years, what do you think would be the most torturous piece of music?
Rules: it has to be a piece of classical music, nothing like Yanni or Kenny G., everything from past to present is on the table.
-Modernist: 4′33″. Hit it!
-Gaoler: That's not music.
-Modernist: Nooooo!
Quote from: Simula on August 12, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
Okay, so if you were cast into a purgatory of suffering, where one piece of music was repeated back to back for ten thousands years, what do you think would be the most torturous piece of music?
Rules: it has to be a piece of classical music, nothing like Yanni or Kenny G., everything from past to present is on the table.
Not just one? No fair!
This thread has great promise to be a can very full of worms while it also manages to step on the toes of a lot of peoples personal taste. That said...
I assume this is not about those 'bad to egregious' second and third tier composers, or pieces in that camp, like Gabriel Pierné's
Piano Concerto? I mean let's keep this all upper tier stuff!
The first thing that popped into my mind is J.S. Bach -- all Bach and nothing but Bach -- a sort of ultimate Teutonic Torture, for which a few other different candidates like Wagner or Bruckner could well fit the bill.There are
many many many worthy candidates, those completely determined by the whoever is doing the nominating.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 12, 2016, 02:00:45 PM
The first thing that popped into my mind is J.S. Bach -- all Bach and nothing but Bach -- a sort of ultimate Teutonic Torture, for which a few other different candidates like Wagner or Bruckner could well fit the bill.
Bach was my initial thought as well. Good in moderation, becomes torture with repetition, but I suspect this is probably true of all music.
What about Lutoslawski's string quartet? 10,000 years worth!
I can imagine eventually stabbing myself to the rhythms of Beethoven symphony no. 7 if that plays over and over forever.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 12, 2016, 05:06:59 PM
Even though that is my favourite Beetsy Symphony, I can understand.
Though I wouldn't be able to take any Beetsyman symphonies for too long at a time :-X
I think Mozart's Piano Sonata 16 (Or any really) could drive me to literal insanity :'(
Lol my favourite beethoven symphonies are 2 and 4 such a hipster
Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.
Any of the "scenic suites" by Ferde' Grofe', but especially the Mississippi Suite and the Hudson River Suite.
I am assuming that this means one recording of a work so to listen to only one musical work and nothing else would probably make me smash the playing device no matter who the composer and I would practice my whistling.
Quote from: Simula on August 12, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
Okay, so if you were cast into a purgatory of suffering, where one piece of music was repeated back to back for ten thousands years, what do you think would be the most torturous piece of music?
Rules: it has to be a piece of classical music, nothing like Yanni or Kenny G., everything from past to present is on the table.
"TacoBelle" Canon....hands down; and ears plugged... ;D ::)
Anything from Stockhausen and I'd imagine most of the American Minimalist stuff would grate on my nerves after awhile even if I do like some of it. You can only take so much repetition. You can only take so much repetition. You can only take so much repetition... ;D
OK I'm going to put this another way. Is there any single work that you could listen to for ever in that it would be the only music you could listen to. for me the answer would be no.
REICH: Clap Music (to original question)
Quote from: Simula on August 12, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
Okay, so if you were cast into a purgatory of suffering, where one piece of music was repeated back to back for ten thousands years, what do you think would be the most torturous piece of music?
Bolero
Quote from: aligreto on August 13, 2016, 12:07:30 AM
Bolero
Yeah, that would be my choice. In fact, if not for watching the Bejart/Sylvie Guillem dances I probably wouldn't have heard it for years.
And for the hell of it: the nightmare scenario is being stuck in a mirrored room with an endless loop of Bolero and discovering I have hair like Simon Rattle.
I think this would be appropriate: Langgaard - Symphony No.11 "Ixion"
Quote from: Klaze on August 13, 2016, 04:36:32 AM
I think this would be appropriate: Langgaard - Symphony No.11 "Ixion"
Good one!
Quote from: jessop on August 12, 2016, 02:43:19 PM
I can imagine eventually stabbing myself to the rhythms of Beethoven symphony no. 7 if that plays over and over forever.
Beecham wrote: "What can you do with it? It's like a lot of yaks jumping about."
If only one piece, I choose Strauss's Capriccio.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 13, 2016, 05:04:21 AM
Beecham wrote: "What can you do with it? It's like a lot of yaks jumping about."
Tommy was great with the quips 8)
O Fortuna, from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana"
it's not even close.
Quote from: Brian on August 13, 2016, 08:58:57 AM
O Fortuna, from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana"
it's not even close.
Not even the whole 45-minutes piece?
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
Sarge
+1 on that one
Sarge.
When I see this question, I do not think about music but about the kinds of things that are said about music on internet classical forums.
The two posts preceding mine are good examples of torture. A perfectly nice piece, with a lot of cool stuff going on, traduced for no good reason.
Not that that's all Rock and aligreto's fault, faulty as they certainly are, because after all that's what the OP sets up as valid and respectable.
Hell. Yeah. It's right here on the internets.
[Full disclosure: I concur with Brian's choice, but his mentioning it is no less hellish than the posts of Sargeant Rock and aligreto. You would never hae known that I too hate that piece had I not needed it right now to make this point.]
Quote from: NikF on August 13, 2016, 12:36:23 AM
Yeah, that would be my choice. In fact, if not for watching the Bejart/Sylvie Guillem dances I probably wouldn't have heard it for years.
And for the hell of it: the nightmare scenario is being stuck in a mirrored room with an endless loop of Bolero and discovering I have hair like Simon Rattle.
While I can't relate to the first part of your post – I love every second of Boléro – I certainly feel ya when it comes to Rattle's.. can you even call it 'hair'?!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
That's the piece I frequently play to soothe myself. Taste works in mysterious ways!
(also, anyone dissing
Ixion is going straight to hell
exactly for that >:()
As for my own personal hell, I don't really know. Probably some 19th century Italian opera.
Quote from: some guy on August 13, 2016, 12:40:51 PM
When I see this question, I do not think about music but about the kinds of things that are said about music on internet classical forums.
The two posts preceding mine are good examples of torture. A perfectly nice piece, with a lot of cool stuff going on, traduced for no good reason.
Not that that's all Rock and aligreto's fault, faulty as they certainly are, because after all that's what the OP sets up as valid and respectable.
Hell. Yeah. It's right here on the internets.
[Full disclosure: I concur with Brian's choice, but his mentioning it is no less hellish than the posts of Sargeant Rock and aligreto. You would never hae known that I too hate that piece had I not needed it right now to make this point.]
So in other words, it's fine for you to say CB is torture for you, but not fine for others to say the Reich is torture for them - because you like the Reich. And "traduced" yet!
Quote from: Rinaldo on August 13, 2016, 01:17:21 PM
(also, anyone dissing Ixion is going straight to hell exactly for that >:()
I certainly wasn't, just noting that it was appropriate w.r.t. the thread given the name and sound of the piece. ;)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
Sarge
This is a terrible affliction. I know, I too suffered from it: "Initial Minimalism Adversion". You feel like your head will explode, and you long for it to do so. But it can be cured. The cure is repeated listens.
Quote from: Ken B on August 13, 2016, 02:53:43 PM
This is a terrible affliction. I know, I too suffered from it: "Initial Minimalism Adversion". You feel like your head will explode, and you long for it to do so. But it can be cured. The cure is repeated listens.
Same applies to Stockhausen, Boulez, et al.
Quote from: Ken B on August 13, 2016, 02:53:43 PM
This is a terrible affliction. I know, I too suffered from it: "Initial Minimalism Adversion". You feel like your head will explode, and you long for it to do so. But it can be cured. The cure is repeated listens.
But I've already heard it repeatedly...just this afternoon: several hundred times in just the first few minutes ;D
Sarge
Quote from: Ken B on August 13, 2016, 02:53:43 PM
This is a terrible affliction. I know, I too suffered from it: "Initial Minimalism Aversion". You feel like your head will explode, and you long for it to do so. But it can be cured. The cure is repeated listens.
Too, I find it a titch ironic that supposedly
very "manly men" have such a reaction to
Music for Eighteen Musicians and that makes me think of the comment Charles Ives gave to a neighboring audience member who was heckling the music during a performance of Ives' Violin Sonata (one of those more than perfect situations where the heckler had no idea he was seated right next to the composer, ha!)
"Stop being such a musical sissy.' :laugh:
I'm in full agreement as to your recommended 'cure':
Anything unfamiliar, new or downright alien to your realm of understanding and experiences, becomes far better understood upon repeat exposures.
Best regards.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
Sarge
Tough Guy Crushed by Piece of Tonal Music ~ Film At Eleven. lol.
This piece shares some similar traits while using a very different approach, and the tempo and feel are rather different, too. I'm wondering if this is for you also at least in the elevator on the way down to the main entrance of Hell? (i.e. it is
waaay way down, that ride lasting over an hour.)
https://www.youtube.com/v/UyJZKW1oNPo
Best regards.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 03:07:02 PM
But I've already heard it repeatedly...just this afternoon: several hundred times in just the first few minutes ;D
Sarge
Yeah. That stuff is pretty 'orrible.
Quote from: some guy on August 13, 2016, 12:40:51 PM
...Not that that's all Rock and aligreto's fault....
Since my good pal Some Guy knows just how flighty I can be, I am assured of his forgiveness as to this little tangent, but synapse no. x,xxx,xxx,xxx.xx fired, and I envisioned one movement of a piece having the tempo marking:
Rock 'n' Allegretto
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
Sarge
Of course, if you checked out after the first 16 minutes you have not really heard it ;-)
Quote from: Scion7 on August 13, 2016, 06:16:46 PM
Yeah. That stuff is pretty 'orrible.
How much 'orrible -- I mean, is it as grievously 'orrible as are the symphonies of Bax, Rubbra, or Vagn Holmboe? -- i.e.
just 'ow 'orrible is it? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 13, 2016, 02:33:12 PM
CB is torture for you....
O.K. I'll bite... who the hey is 'CB'
Question: (we can leave it hypothetical) You suffer an arthritic condition which makes it a labor to type out a full name?
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 13, 2016, 06:34:13 PM
O.K. I'll bite... who the hey is 'CB'
Question: (we can leave it hypothetical) You suffer an arthritic condition which makes it a labor to type out a full name?
Yeah, that must be it. If you had actually read the thread through . . . .
Quote from: some guy on August 13, 2016, 12:40:51 PM
When I see this question, I do not think about music but about the kinds of things that are said about music on internet classical forums.
The two posts preceding mine are good examples of torture. A perfectly nice piece, with a lot of cool stuff going on, traduced for no good reason.
Not that that's all Rock and aligreto's fault, faulty as they certainly are, because after all that's what the OP sets up as valid and respectable.
Hell. Yeah. It's right here on the internets.
[Full disclosure: I concur with Brian's choice, but his mentioning it is no less hellish than the posts of Sargeant Rock and aligreto. You would never hae known that I too hate that piece had I not needed it right now to make this point.]
You know, call me a contrarian but it is a funny thing that I have never needed the internet to tell me what music I like or do not like. Those opinions are based on the two ears on each side of my head. Just because one disagrees with someone else's likes does not implicitly imply that one is deliberately traducing; that is just juvenile. Should one apologise for disliking something what someone else holds sacred? I don't think so. That might actually imply that one was either not entitled to one's own opinion or that one's own opinion was not valid. There are as many lemmings and sheep on the internet as there are smug, self righteous moralists but I would not count myself among either pack. Happy listening to whatever you choose to listen to ;)
Feldman is wonderful. In addition to Monsieur's example, I highly recommend Feldman's For John Cage, a haunting dialogue between violin and piano. It doesn't quite contain the beautiful towering cathedrals of Piano and String Quartet, and is an a sense an opposite work.
Nevertheless, the witty dialogue of a few notes here and there in the violin and piano exchanging roles, the slow explorations of tight and limited pitch class space and the subtle changing of octave register within said limited pitch class space, the irregular number of repetitions of cells, the contrast between the qualities of the violin and piano (i.e the piano plays chords, but the violin is lyrical, and later on has plucking, glissando, and double stops), the irregular time delays between violin and piano even in repeating cell segments, the gradually changing density of rhythmic activity in the piece on a glacial scale, all contribute to such a delicate and charged atmosphere.
In the depths of this piece, the hightened rhythmic activity of the instruments starts to sound like a toy clock, a flurry that almost sounds like it's from a different piece yet still feels just right. It has a childlike unearthliness to it. The contrasts between octaves, major 7ths/minor 9ths, and minor 7ths/major 9ths give almost a feeling of mental wavering. And indeed, wide and slow vibrato in the high violin directly becomes this wavering!
I highly, highly recommend this, and would encourage everyone to look at both Feldman's For John Cage, as well as the aforementioned Piano and String Quartet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oer0Me_nhDM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 13, 2016, 02:33:12 PM
So in other words, it's fine for you to say CB is torture for you, but not fine for others to say the Reich is torture for them - because you like the Reich. And "traduced" yet!
This is exactly what I did not say.
You copied and pasted OK, but you can't have read the post you responded to. Or you would have seen that even though I personally agree that Carmina Burana is awful, I did not like seeing it trashed any more than I liked seeing the Reich trashed.
It's the trashing, poco, it's the trashing. Not what's trashed, the trashing itself.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 13, 2016, 11:41:17 AM
A few hours ago I heard Reich's Music for 18 Musicians for the first time...at least the first 16 minutes. I couldn't take any more. I had to check my pulse after the first few minutes to make sure I wasn't already in hell.
Sarge
I may have reported it here at the time . . . at one point when I was working in the MFA gift shop, the manager decided to make use of my classical music knowledge, and asked me for a list of classical CDs which might be suitable to stock at the shop for sale. I gave him a list of, I don't remember, 20 or 30 CDs . . . one of which was
Music for 18 Musicians.
And that was actually one of the discs he decided to bring in.
It sharply divided the shop staff. Two or three of us loved it, both as music to listen to, and as something energizing in the background during a slow night shift. Probably a clear majority, though, found it (and here it ties in with the thread) torture, and refused to allow us to play the disc.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 13, 2016, 06:00:59 PM"Stop being such a musical sissy.'[/b] :laugh:
I fell in love with Ive's music (Ruggles' too) when I was a teen. I do not fear for my musical masculinity ;)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 13, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
Tough Guy Crushed by Piece of Tonal Music ~ Film At Eleven. lol.
;D :D ;D True, it crushed me. But then, tiny drops of water, applied rhythmically and constantly for a long duration, will topple the strongest. That particular Reich piece is, to me, the aural equivalent of Chinese water torture. And let me say here, I do not hate everything by Reich (or Minimalism in general). For example, I'm quite moved (and not to hell) by
Different Trains. I heard it for the first time live at a concert in Frankfurt, played by Kronos. I had a front row seat.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Kronos1.jpg)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 13, 2016, 06:11:59 PM
This piece shares some similar traits while using a very different approach, and the tempo and feel are rather different, too. I'm wondering if this is for you also at least in the elevator on the way down to the main entrance of Hell?
Unfortunately I can't see the video (there is just a black square showing) but I'm assuming (based on SeptimalTritone's post) that it's Feldman's
Piano and String Quartet? If so, the answer to your question is, no...it is not torture. In fact it's heavenly. Probably my favorite Feldman (along with
Crippled Symmetry).
Sarge
Quote from: karlhenning on August 14, 2016, 04:13:15 AM. . . one of which was Music for 18 Musicians.
It sharply divided the shop staff. Two or three of us loved it, both as music to listen to, and as something energizing in the background during a slow night shift. Probably a clear majority, though, found it (and here it ties in with the thread) torture, and refused to allow us to play the disc.
Interesting, Karl. I wonder if watching it via YouTube had an influence on how I perceived the music. I felt sorry for the musicians and worried about repetitive strain injury ;D I'll have to try it again sometime without the visual element distracting me.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 14, 2016, 05:09:49 AM
Interesting, Karl. I wonder if watching it via YouTube had an influence on how I perceived the music. I felt sorry for the musicians and worried about repetitive strain injury ;D I'll have to try it again sometime without the visual element distracting me.
Sarge
The experience at the shop made the manager reconsider whether consulting me was such a hot idea. Not that he formed an opinion about the
Reich (if he did, I was unaware of it); but playing a disc quite often meant that someone shopping liked what they heard, and we would sell a disc or two as a result — and as it was rare that a consensus in the shop would permit the playing of the disc, this was an inventory item which scarcely sold at all . . . .
Those who expressed the torture of listening to Reich's Music for 18 Musicians (I feel your pain; the last time I played this piece it nearly ruined my day). That being said, I can see how it is possible that repeated exposure to this piece will "somehow" make it palatable. However, I for one, will not be performing this experiment.
As for Morton Feldman, oddly enough, is not a composer who bothers me... well, I can't say this about all of his pieces, but some of his music simply lingers in the background. I love it because it almost gives me a break from too much noise.
Even though I went through a short Minimalism phase recently, this is not music that's my bread and butter nor is it music that I would listen to on a regular basis. I like music that more or less follows classical tradition, not in the Romantic sense per se, but music that has all of the ingredients in which I think make up what I believe music essentially is: harmony, rhythm, melody, and structure. Of course, this is me over-simplifying this idea. This said, I can certainly understand how Reich's Music for 18 Musicians would be torture for many people. If I'm not in the right frame of mind, it annoys the hell out of me, too.
What about this, best piece for purgatory: John Cage 4'33. (my apologies if someone already said this).
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 14, 2016, 07:25:09 AM
what I believe music essentially is: harmony, rhythm, melody, and structure.
I hate to have to be the one to point this out, but I'm also not willing to wait for someone else to do it, so:
Reich's piece has all four of these qualities.
Quote from: some guy on August 14, 2016, 09:45:40 AM
I hate to have to be the one to point this out, but I'm also not willing to wait for someone else to do it, so:
Reich's piece has all four of these qualities.
This may be the case, but it's not music that I'm attracted to in the traditional sense and only has a limited appeal for me.
Actually, this is the case:
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 14, 2016, 07:25:09 AM
I like music that more or less follows classical tradition, not in the Romantic sense per se, but music that has all of the ingredients in which I think make up what I believe music essentially is: harmony, rhythm, melody, and structure.
You like music that has what you believe music essentially is. Reich's piece has all the qualities that you mentioned. You don't like Reich's piece.
There is something wrong, here.
The wrongness is only compounded when you simply double down on your tastes.
I wonder if being exposed to Reich waaaay before I got into classical music actually eased me into the whole minimalist aesthetic. I'm playing M18 right now, instant life-affirming joy!
Based on what some guy has already posted in this thread, is it safe to say he is currently having some kind of masochist phase?
I think that people should not be scrutinized for disliking certain music for wrong/illogical reasons.
Why?
Because people can also like music for wrong/illogical reasons. We all know how people like Mozart because "he has great melody", and while this can be the case in places, remember that there is still a lot of very neutral material: arpeggios, scales, short motifs... and that the main driving force in Mozart's music is pitting of opposites at small and large scales. Texture 1 v.s. texture 2, tonic v.s. dominant, slow harmonic rhythm v.s. fast harmonic rhythm, square rhythm v.s. irregular rhythm, monophonic v.s. homophonic v.s. polyphonic, stability v.s. sequence, separate motifs v.s. joined motifs, etc. And consider the freedom for melodic expressivity that the romantics had to go to far harmonic places or to have wild and spontaneous rhythmic values or chromaticisms in like a Schumann or Chopin, not bound to the shackles of classical balance.
Or consider how people call Beethoven great because he was proto-romantic, when his real achievement is reaching the greatest extremes of tension within classicism: the Romantic enharmonic extremes of Schubert were not for Beethoven, and in fact would destroy what Beethoven was trying to do. Or consider how people call Bach "perfect", when it seems (at least to my beginner ears) that the bravery and variety of pitting his fugal subject against countersubjects seems more important than any kind of perfect structural matching, like in a Mozart or Webern.
Or consider an even greater sin: people liking Chopin because his music is relaxing, when in reality what makes him so good is his extreme harmonic destabilization within his elaborations of melody and his invigorating counterpoint through bassline motion and pianistic texture. And people still call all of that relaxing, and say that relaxing is a good thing!
So if people like music for wrong or illogical reasons, and we don't criticize the legitimacy of their liking, the same goes for dislike. I would suspect that a large amount, or even a majority, of audiences' explanations of why they like certain classical music would be wrong and illogical, and the same goes for dislike.
Quote from: some guy on August 14, 2016, 03:59:29 AM
Or you would have seen that even though I personally agree that Carmina Burana is awful, I did not like seeing it trashed any more than I liked seeing the Reich trashed.
OK, I got it. To say something is awful is not the same as trashing it. Clear as a bell.
Certainly not what the OP hopes to elicit, I'm sure, but from another angle, my answer to the question in the OP is:
Questions like the one asked in the OP.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 14, 2016, 05:09:49 AM
Interesting, Karl. I wonder if watching it via YouTube had an influence on how I perceived the music. I felt sorry for the musicians and worried about repetitive strain injury ;D I'll have to try it again sometime without the visual element distracting me.
Sarge
Really though the music is radically different from
Music for eighteen musicians, one can -- and should - then have equal concern about repeat stress injury for the pianist performing Brahms'
Piano Concerto no. 2, to name one of hundreds of works from the common practice era. That could be ditto for those poor orchestral violinists playing the endless arpeggios Wagner scored.
Neither Reich or Brahms composed anything which inherently leads to that sort of injury -- 'they' know what can and can not be done without physical harm being a liability, and that numbers of musicians around the world have, ahem ~ repeatedly ~ performed both works testifies to that. -- Yeah, Sarge, I took your glib quip in earnest (well, O.k., only a tiny bit :-)
Your aversion to
Eighteen while finding
Changing Trains both riveting and moving only goes to show how individual sensibilities and tastes work, or don't, from one person to the next.
I also think / feel
Changing Trains is a beautiful and moving (and "important") work.
The Feldman
Piano and String Quartet is one of my all time favored pieces, period... which I also think is a truly great piece in the entire body of classical music rep.
Where we diverge is that I find
Music for Eighteen Musicians a near equal in that quality of suspended time, or another near to perfect 'float' piece ala the Feldman. Maybe we both like coffee : -)
I have noticed over a lot of time, that some music having a particular tempo and activity can drive people
up the wall, even though its import was certainly not intended that way by the composer and not perceived that way by 'enough' listeners. I cite East Indian sitar music when it is going with rapid note activity amain -- some seem to hear it as a note to note thing, which will give the feeling of 'frenetic,' while others 'ride the wave of all those particles' and get a completely different feeling while listening to exactly the same music.
Chacun a "their own tics!" Always best regards.
P.s. I know you are not a sissy. I would have to have a dim cap sense of self-preservation to call a guy named 'Sarge' a sissy. Love the actual circumstance of that story (true) and what Ives said to the heckler... it is just too good to have passed up an opportunity to toss it in.
Quote from: some guy on August 14, 2016, 09:45:40 AM
I hate to have to be the one to point this out, but I'm also not willing to wait for someone else to do it, so:
Reich's piece has all four of these qualities.
My commiserations.
I personally find it beyond irritating to feel near forced to state what is, after all, the more than blazingly obvious. You deserve a tiny medal for going there ;-)
Best regards.
Quote from: Simula on August 14, 2016, 07:28:57 AM
What about this, best piece for purgatory: John Cage 4'33. (my apologies if someone already said this).
Welcome to the lame world of the resurrected walking dead who continue to make futile jabs at the same old and obvious target which it is patently clear they do not at all understand.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 15, 2016, 04:57:42 PM
Welcome to the lame world of the resurrected walking dead who continue to make futile jabs at the same old and obvious target which it is patently clear they do not at all understand.
QFT.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 14, 2016, 04:09:17 PM
OK, I got it. To say something is awful is not the same as trashing it. Clear as a bell.
Sardonic, ^that^ was, I assume.
To say only you don't care for it, it is not to your taste, maybe even put forth what your preference is so others understand why your opinion is what it is, uh,
yeah.Saying only it is awful is just another form of wholesale trashing... might make the person who said it feel real good, while it does nothing, or if anything, and is yet again, inflammatory.
Quote from: jessop on August 14, 2016, 03:02:19 PM
Based on what some guy has already posted in this thread, is it safe to say he is currently having some kind of masochist phase?
Well, someone has to do it, and it really is not in any way pleasant to have to step outside of yourself to call out a falsehood you know just about everyone in the room knows is a false, including the author of the falsehood.
(I suppose there are actually people who get off on filling exactly that role. I don't think I know any, though.)
Reich music for 18 would be pretty brutal torture for purgatory. My guess is that even the most devoted fan of this piece would nearly crack if he or she merely tried to play it for one full day.
Quote from: Simula on August 15, 2016, 06:37:12 PM
Reich music for 18 would be pretty brutal torture for purgatory. My guess is that even the most devoted fan of this piece would nearly crack if he or she merely tried to play it for one full day.
I've set
Music for 18 Musicians on repeat play and let it run a good number of times through. Ditto for Feldman 's
Piano and String Quartet....absolutely no problemo.
Odd that no one's mentioned Satie's Vexations yet in this regard.
I have listened several times to complete (or "complete") performances of this. It becomes absolutely addictive after awhile.
So yeah. Also absolutely no problemo.
I also attended a shortened version of Feldman's second string quartet, which took four hours. Riveting. And also too short.
What I found torturous was the music of ***. I successfully expunged this composer's earworms, but if I were to hear any of ***'s pieces again, I don't think I'd be able to get rid of those. It took a great deal of effort, mostly of the "play in your head something else to drown the dreck out" variety, which is not easy. Not for me, anyway. But I did it. I cannot recall a single note by ***, and I hope I can keep it that way.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 15, 2016, 04:57:42 PM
Welcome to the lame world of the resurrected walking dead who continue to make futile jabs at the same old and obvious target which it is patently clear they do not at all understand.
What is not to understand about 4'33"? It really just seems to be very much based on the Zen Buddhist idea of 'ma' - the space between the notes, an extension the ambient sound in the performance space before the pianist actually plays anything. It's a very simple, meditative idea.
Well, "seems to be" is not quite the same as "is."
It is, first and foremost, about intention. And the sounds that occur are not sounds that the composer intends.
So it is also about acceptance. About accepting unintentional sounds as having validity, even musical validity.
That's what there is to understand about it.
That and $2.10 will get you a coffee grande at Starbucks.
BTW, don't ever shop at Starbucks. :)
Quote from: some guy on August 16, 2016, 01:15:14 AM
BTW, don't ever shop at Starbucks. :)
I live in Melbourne, Australia. Starbucks gets so few customers that some of them have to be closed down. We are all coffee snobs here.
Just one more reason to admire the Australians!!
Starbucks having to close some of their shops down? Best news I've heard all week. 8)
I personally love the sound of a Starbucks being closed down. It is music to my ears.
Quote from: Simula on August 15, 2016, 06:37:12 PM
Reich music for 18 would be pretty brutal torture for purgatory. My guess is that even the most devoted fan of this piece would nearly crack if he or she merely tried to play it for one full day.
Think that wouldn't be true of
Eine kleine Nachtmusik?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 15, 2016, 05:52:25 PM
Saying only it is awful is just another form of wholesale trashing...
And the king of wholesale trashing is...? ;)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 12, 2016, 02:00:45 PM
I assume this is not about those 'bad to egregious' second and third tier composers...like Gabriel Pierné's Piano Concerto?
The first thing that popped into my mind is J.S. Bach -- all Bach and nothing but Bach -- a sort of ultimate Teutonic Torture, for which a few other different candidates like Wagner or Bruckner could well fit the bill.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 13, 2016, 06:28:17 PM
I mean, is it as grievously 'orrible as are the symphonies of Bax, Rubbra, or Vagn Holmboe?
Quote from: jessop on August 16, 2016, 02:19:28 AM
I personally love the sound of a Starbucks being closed down. It is music to my ears.
OTOH, thanks to Starbucks, we enjoy the phrase "designer coffee."
Quote from: some guy on August 15, 2016, 11:06:28 PM
Odd that no one's mentioned Satie's Vexations yet in this regard.
I've never heard this piece, but I will now.
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 07:29:08 AM
I've never heard this piece, but I will now.
Budget at least 840 minutes.
Quote from: jessop on August 16, 2016, 02:19:28 AM
I personally love the sound of a Starbucks being closed down. It is music to my ears.
To put things into perspective: I suppose you love the sound of people losing their jobs and having to find other employment as well? :-\
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2016, 06:50:53 PM
To put things into perspective: I suppose you love the sound of people losing their jobs and having to find other employment as well? :-\
This sounds exactly like something the old man in your profile picture would say.
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:53:00 PM
This sounds exactly like something the old man in your profile picture would say.
And your point?
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2016, 06:56:08 PM
And your point?
Nothing, I just don't want you to take off your belt and start hitting me.
Xenakis is another composer that would be pure torture after about 15 minutes. I mean some of his works are pretty cool sounding, but, overall, I couldn't stomach listening to him for a long period.
Quote from: jessop on August 16, 2016, 01:23:02 AM
I live in Melbourne, Australia. Starbucks gets so few customers that some of them have to be closed down. We are all coffee snobs here.
Rebels Strike Evil Empire! ~ Film At ElevenGood on you all, mates :-)
Seriously, what it is that is so wrong (if not actually egregious) about the question in the OP is that any one piece, or even "all the works of" one composer, as all one can ever hear in eternity?
Hell? Yeah!...No matter how freakin' divine the works or composer.
Similar to the 'one piece or composer / desert island' question, whenever it comes up, has me thinking more...
Truly, desert island? ... probably use those discs to create a shade screen, or snap one into pieces for cutting tools, shiny side of the CD as mirror-sun flash signal if a ship went by... etc.
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:59:50 PM
Nothing, I just don't want you to take off your belt and start hitting me.
(http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Clint-Eastwood-Mad-In-Gran-Torino-Gif.gif)
Quote from: Simula on August 16, 2016, 06:59:50 PM
Nothing, I just don't want you to take off your belt and start hitting me.
:laugh: No matter whose, it would be a virtual belt, not at all useful for holding up your pants or a dress, and one way or t'other,
you wouldn't feel a thing. :)
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2016, 06:50:53 PM
To put things into perspective: I suppose you love the sound of people losing their jobs and having to find other employment as well? :-\
I'm not being literal. What i mean is that I prefer cafes that actually makes coffee that tastes really good as opposed to the low quality stuff you get at Starbucks
Quote from: jessop on August 16, 2016, 07:26:53 PM
I'm not being literal. What i mean is that I prefer cafes that actually makes coffee that tastes really good as opposed to the low quality stuff you get at Starbucks
I can make better coffee at home. I have no use for Starbucks. On this point, I agree with you.
Quote from: jessop on August 16, 2016, 07:26:53 PM
I'm not being literal. What i mean is that I prefer cafes that actually makes coffee that tastes really good as opposed to the low quality stuff you get at Starbucks
"Burnt black beans" as one of my buddies in Texas says.
I think the point is that any piece of music that was repeated for 10,000 years would be quite torturous. However, some would be worse than others. What would be interesting would be to assemble a psychological team to catalogue the effects of all the different pieces after prolonged listening. Beethoven would produce external violence, while Reich would produce utter madness and self mutilation.
O.
K.
Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No.1.
Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee. In a hurry, they can be helpful. To ask quality in those places is simply an ill posed question since I don't think that's their main concern in the first place.
Quote from: Simula on August 17, 2016, 08:37:24 AM
Reich would produce utter madness and self mutilation.
In what part of the anatomy?
Quote from: aleazk on August 17, 2016, 07:11:16 PM
Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee. In a hurry, they can be helpful. To ask quality in those places is simply an ill posed question since I don't think that's their main concern in the first place.
That's a fair point. By the way, welcome! I LOVE your avatar. Bill Evans is my favorite jazz pianist. Such a huge influence on me.
I often wondered how much of the same piece my family members could bear hearing my practicing them over and over again. One thing for sure, hearing some teachers down the hall in a conservatory bang and scream would make me go to pieces. I don't know how the secretary would stand for it but he was usually seen playing computer solitaire and then turning the screen when we came to his desk.
Quote from: Simula on August 17, 2016, 08:37:24 AM
I think the point is that any piece of music that was repeated for 10,000 years would be quite torturous. However, some would be worse than others. What would be interesting would be to assemble a psychological team to catalogue the effects of all the different pieces after prolonged listening. Beethoven would produce external violence, while Reich would produce utter madness and self mutilation.
Your proposal, using human subjects, is a titch to the left of a Mengelian stamp of socio/psychopathy :-)
Quote from: aleazk on August 17, 2016, 07:11:16 PM
Starbucks is the McDonalds of coffee. In a hurry, they can be helpful. To ask quality in those places is simply an ill posed question since I don't think that's their main concern in the first place.
I'd sooner inject caffeine into my bloodstream with a syringe than order coffee at Starbucks
Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2016, 01:40:01 AM
"Burnt black beans" as one of my buddies in Texas says.
Them be "French Roast," pardner -- that variety invented as a means of giving more flavor to bland or inferior beans -- sort of like adding burnt chicory to the coffee.
Listening to Mozart makes me want to rape little bunnies ???
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 21, 2016, 07:02:18 PM
I have to completely disagree to the highest level, as he has always been my #1 composer and I have trouble listening to his work too much sometimes, through being addicted ;D
Xenakis is a pleasure to listen to, I even named one of my accounts after him....hmmm ::)
That's fine. We all have our favorites and Xenakis could never be one of mine. :)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 21, 2016, 07:13:10 PM
It's alright, you don't have to like (or love, like I do) his music, as with any other compser (like Beethoven).
What are your thoughts on Varese and Messiaen? just wondering :)
I really like Varese's music (esp.
Ameriques and
Arcana). I'm not a fan of Messiaen. I almost had a breakthrough with his music last year (?), but when I made a return to his music, I was thoroughly disappointed that whatever enthusiasm I had seemed to have faded away. I do love his
L'ascension. I think this is a masterwork, but little else has made an impression of me. I tend to like the earlier generation of 20th Century French composers, especially Ravel, Debussy, Poulenc, and Koechlin. Generally speaking, I'm not really into French music too much and prefer the Russians, Nordics, Austrians/Germans, Brits, and Americans (incl. Latin Americans). I also like a few Czech and Hungarian composers.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 21, 2016, 07:37:34 PM
I'm more into the French (too many to name), Russians (Stravinsky, Glazunov) , American (eg Ives, Cowell, Cage), Austrian (eg Webern, Haas) and Hungarian (eg Bartok, Ligeti), interesting! :o
Of Course there is also Schoenberg and Stockhausen ;)
Your choice of Glazunov is a strange one, but we all have own lists of favorites of course.
Surely Morton Feldman or other minimalism or even someone like Sorabji would probably be the best kind of music to have in the situation posed (purgatory).
Worst would be endless repetitions of something by Johann Strauss I or II (assuming it has to be classical). The tunes, although infectious if heard once, would drive you completely mad by the 1000th repetition in succession.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 21, 2016, 07:49:54 PM
I thought I'd put in an oddball, I like a few of his works, he's not a modern composer but he is one of the Russian greats. Of course I also missed Mahler, who's symphonies 5 - 9 (including Das Lied) really also effect me.
But it's starting to become a favourite composer thread, I apologise :laugh:
No need to apologize. And if some become annoyed by this digression into a GMG favourite subject - lists! favourite composers! - then we're still on topic, on some level. :P
As for the question - anything would surely have the same effect after a while.
I'm sure I could come up with all sorts of extreme scenarios, google for composers that utilized farts in their music, etc...
...But I reckon a looped playlist of Puccini would kill me all the same.
http://www.youtube.com/v/RdTBml4oOZ8
Quote from: karlhenning on August 22, 2016, 09:57:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/RdTBml4oOZ8
Pavarotti + a microphone = a ham 'n' schmaltz fest, the schmaltz laid on
thick.Maybe something we can all agree upon?
https://www.youtube.com/v/-quQHNriV-Q
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 22, 2016, 09:24:03 PM
I'm not sure anyone has mentioned this but wouldn't no music at all be a form of torture, it'd be my soul ripped out of me then my body put through a shredder, to give a vague image of what it'd be like.
No music? then I'm gone
Then an eternity of Cage, Xenakis or pneumatic drills would be right up your alley.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 23, 2016, 02:03:02 AM
An eternity of 4'33 jokes would be hell :laugh:
Though I'll gratefully take anything Cage or Xenakis any day :D
God is merciful. 0:)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 22, 2016, 09:03:34 PM
Pavarotti + a microphone = a ham 'n' schmaltz fest, the schmaltz laid on thick.
You're welcome 8)
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 23, 2016, 02:03:02 AM
An eternity of 4'33 jokes would be hell :laugh:
Amen! Brother and Sisters, Amen!
Alas, it seems they just won't die off . . . .
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 23, 2016, 02:03:02 AM
An eternity of 4'33 jokes would be hell :laugh:
Or a hilarious diversion. Or part of the performance. :o
I also started making jokes on 4'33 but now I feel uncomfortable doing so, and also a bit annoyed when someone else does it.
A serious question for you guys: how many times do you listen to 4'33 in a day/week/month/year?
I do it quite often when I'm in a "right" environment or when I feel inspired to do so.
With a clock in my hand.
It's a great listening experience. It has always told me a lot on my listening attitude. Moreover, I believe it has somehow improved my listening skills.
God bless Cage for bringing 4'33 to the world.
I'd rather prefer jokes on the tons of junk music which is sold as "truly contemporary classical music" such as that by Giovanni Allevi. His music could be my torture. Luckily most of you probably don't know him.
Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2016, 03:23:46 AM
Alas, it seems they just won't die off . . . .
The folk wisdom on this has it that a wooden stake driven through the heart, maybe a silver bullet, or exposure to full sunlight would do the trick.
Quote from: GioCar on August 24, 2016, 07:33:01 AM
God bless Cage for bringing 4'33 to the world.
And not a second too soon (but several seconds too long).
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 26, 2016, 01:57:10 AM
I don't want to leave another forum because of 4'33. :P
Even a conversation about how you may hate his prepared piano or aleatoric music would be more fruitful (even though I love a lot of that music)
:)
Stick around! Personally, I am quite a fan of the
Sonatas and Interludes.
Quote from: karlhenning on August 26, 2016, 04:31:18 AM
Stick around! Personally, I am quite a fan of the Sonatas and Interludes.
I like them a fair bit, too.
Quote from: Simula on August 12, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
Okay, so if you were cast into a purgatory of suffering, where one piece of music was repeated back to back for ten thousands years, what do you think would be the most torturous piece of music?
I think Beelzebub would do a tape loop of Britten-Stockhausen - after which one would beg to be tossed onto the flaming brimstone as an alternative.
Quote from: Wanderer on August 26, 2016, 01:51:06 AM
And not a second too soon (but several seconds too long).
So, just which several seconds would you cut, or re-write ~ and why? ???
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 26, 2016, 03:38:56 PM
It makes me think though; Why are people so stuck up about 4'33 when Cage gave us so much beautiful and inventive music? (that actually contains notes!!!)
Not everyone has your same tastes. If someone speaks badly of Cage, don't worry about it.
Quote from: Mirror Image on August 29, 2016, 01:57:18 PM
Not everyone has your same tastes. If someone speaks badly of Cage, don't worry about it.
The time to worry is when they speak well of Stockhausen.
>:D
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on August 26, 2016, 03:38:56 PM
It makes me think though; Why are people so stuck up about 4'33 when Cage gave us so much beautiful and inventive music? (that actually contains notes!!!)
Because it's famous, and because it might be the single easiest piece of music to write about.
Pardon my ignorance of most things religious, including the dogma of any religion or sect, but...
Isn't purgatory like one big waiting room? And, if purgatory is one big waiting room, what could be more torturous and drive-you-mad than a 24 - 7 continuous stream of MUZAK?
Ergo, the music as torture in purgatory, in an especially set apart side-room for those who love classical music, piped in and inescapable, and forever unrelieved, is Muzak.
I've always loved the idea of reincarnation much more than spending an eternity anywhere. For me, eternity = torture
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on August 29, 2016, 11:03:06 PM
Pardon my ignorance of most things religious, including the dogma of any religion or sect, but...
Isn't purgatory like one big waiting room? And, if purgatory is one big waiting room, what could be more torturous and drive-you-mad than a 24 - 7 continuous stream of MUZAK?
Ergo, the music as torture in purgatory, in an especially set apart side-room for those who love classical music, piped in and inescapable, and forever unrelieved, is Muzak.
If you read the Purgatorio of Dante, which admittedly is not religious dogma, you'll find that Purgatory is indeed a kind of waiting room, but one that the sinners therein are happy to endure because after their expiation there is a final promise of Heaven. Each of the deadly sins in Dante's Purgatory is met with a parallel expiation: the slothful are made to run fast, the gluttonous to starve, the proud to carry immense boulders on their backs. But your premise that Purgatory is an area where torture is "forever unrelieved" is completely false. That statement would more accurately apply to the Inferno.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 08, 2016, 03:54:07 AM
...premise that Purgatory is an area where torture is "forever unrelieved" is completely false.
^That is the premise in the OP, not mine. I happily leave things religious and the dogma around and therein to those who are busy with them.
Still, torturous waiting room as set up in the OP,
perpetual Muzak, I say ~ or perhaps, a perpetual drone of a perfectly tuned Pythagorean major third?
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on September 08, 2016, 07:00:19 PM
^That is the premise in the OP, not mine. I happily leave things religious and the dogma around and therein to those who are busy with them.
Still, torturous waiting room as set up in the OP, perpetual Muzak, I say ~ or perhaps, a perpetual drone of a perfectly tuned Pythagorean major third?
Sigh. It's precisely the
perpetual which is false of purgatory.
Quote from: Ken B on September 08, 2016, 07:04:56 PM
Sigh. It's precisely the perpetual which is false of purgatory.
Since the OP is mistaken as to the nature of an artificial human construct worthy of the bureaucracy of ancient Rome's Civil Service, from whence it and so much like it came, I'm not particularly fussed.
I was quite correct, then, about the waiting room, i.e. a way station betwixt and between two possible ultimate destinations,
ergo, not 'eternal,' lol. Not that I can dream of ever posting an OP at all dependent upon a hierarchical construct of that nature, but nonetheless, your lesson on that spot of the catechism has been duly noted.
Best regards.
Mr. Croche, you ask for information on a religious topic and after you receive it from two independent posters you state that actually you´re not interested in it, besides being ironical on them. What was the point of asking that question then?
Quote from: Florestan on September 09, 2016, 12:19:01 AM
Mr. Croche, you ask for information on a religious topic and after you receive it from two independent posters you state that actually you´re not interested in it, besides being ironical on them. What was the point of asking that question then?
It is a dogma factoid, and now I know. That does
not change the 'error' in the OP, to which most respondents have responded as written. And as I questioned myself, it turns out I did somehow absorb via osmosis, literature, or through the ether that 'purgatory' is in essence a way-station waiting room.
If one was inclined and zealous enough, one could PM the OP and each contributor who did not catch the error that
purgatory ≠ eternity. You know, "Set them all straight."
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on September 08, 2016, 10:52:08 PM
Since the OP is mistaken as to the nature of an artificial human construct worthy of the bureaucracy of ancient Rome's Civil Service, from whence it and so much like it came, I'm not particularly fussed.
I was quite correct, then, about the waiting room, i.e. a way station betwixt and between two possible ultimate destinations, ergo, not 'eternal,' lol.
Not that I can dream of ever posting an OP at all dependent upon a hierarchical construct of that nature, but nonetheless, your lesson on that spot of the catechism has been duly noted.
Best regards.
No, no. It's your error not the original poster's.
He wrote
QuoteOkay, so if you were cast into a purgatory of suffering, where one piece of music was repeated back to back for ten thousands years,
Nothing about eternal there. Just a wee ten thousand years. You were the one who erred. And it's not a "dogma factoid". You don't have to believe in it to understand it.
Quote from: Ken B on September 09, 2016, 08:19:54 AM
No, no. It's your error not the original poster's.
He wrote
Nothing about eternal there. Just a wee ten thousand years. You were the one who erred. And it's not a "dogma factoid". You don't have to believe in it to understand it.
I wanted to confirm the accepted convention of purgatory as a temporary waiting place. You were so kind as to confirm that. "Not Eternal" understood, and I thank you again for that. The purpose was to be certain my Waiting Room with Musak
quip had a context... for the rest, I went along with the (erroneous) OP.
Enough contributors have mentioned music... for an eternity. That is probably where I picked that up.
"Ten thousand years" has been a long-accepted convention of speech with an analogous meaning of 'forever.'
Ten thousand years, just a wee ten thousand, would be enough for the greatest work of music played for that duration to drive anyone mad... though the OP seemed to be phishing for people to name pieces and composers they hated, I was happy to see so many say that even their favorite piece would begin to pall after very little time.
Best regards.
Involuntary association to the above posts:
Diecimila anni al nostro Imperatore!
A te, erede di Hien Wang,
noi gridiam:
Diecimila anni al grande Imperatore!
Alte, alte le bandiere!
Gloria a te! Gloria a te!
Ten thousand years to our Emperor!
To you, heir of Hien Wang,
we cry: ten thousand
year's life to our great Emperor!
Hold high, high, the banners!
Glory to you! Glory to you!
Turandot - Finale Act two (and the rhyme is made)
8)