GMG Classical Music Forum

Why not  :)

Long overdue.

Agree, overdue. 

This reminds my of John Corigliano's Mr. Tambourine Man where he sets five of Dylan's lyrics to his own music.

I recall one music critic who referred to Dylan as the poet laureate of his generation.

Quote from: arpeggio on October 13, 2016, 11:30:20 AM
Why not  :)

Because it's a massive, monumental middle finger to the entire literary world (of which, of course, the jury is a part, to a degree)?

It goes without saying that Bob Dylan is an epochal singer and songwriter, although in my mind that epoch closed about thirty years ago, or more. But he does not write poetry. He writes songs.

Off the top of my head I can name dozens of poets who deserve the Nobel, after working for decades on their craft and mining their vision. To name one from the US, Louise Gluck.

And there were rumors that the Albanian novelist Ismael Kadare was close, and some people are still thinking Philip Roth has a shot.

All these writers, and many more who will never ever get close to international prizes, but do belong to the literary food chain, have now been told a guy who plays his songs to stadiums and has an alleged net worth of 75 million dollar needs the prize more.

If one looks at a list of those who did not receive the Nobel Prize for literature, for instance Tolstoy, Ibsen, Zola, Tchekhov, Strindberg, Joyce, Malraux, Auden, Greene, Nabokov, Bellow and Borges awarding it to Bob Dylan looks like a bad joke --- not that it is the only one of the Nobel literary committee in the last two decades.

Quote
"An ill-conceived nostalgia award wrenched from the rancid prostates of senile, gibbering hippies," wrote "Trainspotting" novelist Irvine Welsh. "I totally get the Nobel committee," tweeted author Gary Shteyngart. "Reading books is hard."

Amen to both!

I'm absolutely delighted! When people do all this facetious talking about so-and-so being the 'voice of a generation' or 'an icon' or whatever, it is nearly always bullshit. In Dylan's case, it is more than true.

Quote from: The new erato on October 13, 2016, 11:44:53 AM
Long overdue.

Absolutely!  :)

8)

Quote from: Herman on October 13, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
Because it's a massive, monumental middle finger to the entire literary world (of which, of course, the jury is a part, to a degree)?

It goes without saying that Bob Dylan is an epochal singer and songwriter, although in my mind that epoch closed about thirty years ago, or more. But he does not write poetry. He writes songs.

Off the top of my head I can name dozens of poets who deserve the Nobel, after working for decades on their craft and mining their vision. To name one from the US, Louise Gluck.

And there were rumors that the Albanian novelist Ismael Kadare was close, and some people are still thinking Philip Roth has a shot.

All these writers, and many more who will never ever get close to international prizes, but do belong to the literary food chain, have now been told a guy who plays his songs to stadiums and has an alleged net worth of 75 million dollar needs the prize more.

Hear, hear!

Go ahead and be bitter, those that are. I don't care. I grew up in that era, and you can well believe that all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over, didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had. And if the songs you listen to are not poetry, you ain't listening to the right songs.

8)

Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2016, 12:04:05 PM
If one looks at a list of those who did not receive the Nobel Prize for literature, for instance Tolstoy, Ibsen, Zola, Tchekhov, Strindberg, Joyce, Malraux, Auden, Greene, Nabokov, Bellow and Borges awarding it to Bob Dylan looks like a bad joke --- not that it is the only one of the Nobel literary committee in the last two decades.

Amen to both!

Bellow got it (in 1976), but otherwise, yeah you're right.

Personally I think the Academy's bias against genre fiction needs to go. Some of the 20th century's most enduring literary achievements were in the realm of science fiction or crime/detective fiction.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:09:19 PM
Go ahead and be bitter, those that are. I don't care. I grew up in that era, and you can well believe that all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over, didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had. And if the songs you listen to are not poetry, you ain't listening to the right songs.

8)

What he said.

;)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:09:19 PM
Go ahead and be bitter, those that are. I don't care. I grew up in that era, and you can well believe that all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over, didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had. And if the songs you listen to are not poetry, you ain't listening to the right songs.

8)

I second the motion.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:09:19 PM
all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over,

I do hope you are not refering to my list...

Quote
didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had.

...but if you are, you can well believe that Tolstoy, ibsen and Strindberg, to pick just three, have had over the literary world (we´re talking about a prize for literature, right?) an influence which far surpass the wildest dreams of Dylan (not that I think he had, or has, any such, it´s not his fault the members of the committee have chosen --- again --- to make such fools of themselves).

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 13, 2016, 12:12:13 PM
Bellow got it (in 1976)

My bad indeed.

Quote
Personally I think the Academy's bias against genre fiction needs to go. Some of the 20th century's most enduring literary achievements were in the realm of science fiction or crime/detective fiction.

Agreed.

"Lay, lady, lay...lay across my big brass bed..."

Deserves it just for that  ;D


Sarge

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 13, 2016, 12:12:13 PM
Bellow got it (in 1976), but otherwise, yeah you're right.

Personally I think the Academy's bias against genre fiction needs to go. Some of the 20th century's most enduring literary achievements were in the realm of science fiction or crime/detective fiction.

Ursula Le Guin is still alive!

Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2016, 12:04:05 PM
If one looks at a list of those who did not receive the Nobel Prize for literature, for instance Tolstoy, Ibsen, Zola, Tchekhov, Strindberg, Joyce, Malraux, Auden, Greene, Nabokov, and Borges awarding it to Bob Dylan looks like a bad joke --- not that it is the only one of the Nobel literary committee in the last two decades.

Woolf, Frost, Proust, or Geoffrey Hill didn't make it, either. Lets see if Yevtushenko (1933-) gets it before he receives the prize.

Then again, should the award celebrate a universally loved artist, or draw people's attention to a neglected one? Dylan was already more famous than the award, in any case.

Quote from: Brian on October 13, 2016, 12:23:41 PM
Ursula Le Guin is still alive!

Philip K. Dick is dead, alas:

https://www.amazon.com/Philip-K-Dick-Dead-Alas/dp/1933846542

Dylan has supposedly been suggested for about 20 years or more. It is not the most bizarre decision in the history of the prize but it is fairly strange.

Being a voice of a generation is not really what that prize is or should be for. For being a voice of a generation he could have been awarded some prize in 1975, he has passed from that status since at least 25 years. (He is certainly not the voice of my generation (*1972) but more like a leftover curiosity).

So it boils down to the question whether his song lyrics, looked at as lyrical poetry independently from some (counter)cultural relevance ca. 40 years ago, are comparable in literary quality to what other Nobel laureates or candidates produce...

Quote from: Florestan on October 13, 2016, 12:18:41 PM
I do hope you are not refering to my list...

...but if you are, you can well believe that Tolstoy, ibsen and Strindberg, to pick just three, have had over the literary world (we´re talking about a prize for literature, right?) an influence which far surpass the wildest dreams of Dylan (not that I think he had, or has, any such, it´s not his fault the members of the committee have chosen --- again --- to make such fools of themselves).

The point is, Tolstoy died in 1910, Ibsen in 1906. Dylan is still alive and producing poetry. They may very well have been deserving of a Nobel in 1916, but this is 2016. WTF? 

And either you are using rhetorical excess to make your point, or you really know nothing about Dylan. In this case, I'm not sure which is true. If you had been alive and sentient in the 1960's, you would have a far greater respect for him, I can assure you. You might still not like him, but you would know what he was about.

Subterranean Homesick Blues

Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
By the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D.A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tiptoes
Don't try "No-Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weatherman
To know which way the wind blows

Another poet who should get the award is Adonis. Not that I'm saying Dylan didn't deserve it, but he is 11 years younger than Adonis, and could have waited another year ;)

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poets/detail/adonis#poet

Quote from: North Star on October 13, 2016, 12:25:29 PM
Woolf, Frost, Proust, or Geoffrey Hill didn't make it, either. Lets see if Yevtushenko (1933-) gets it before he receives the prize.

Then again, should the award celebrate a universally loved artist, or draw people's attention to a neglected one? Dylan was already more famous than the award, in any case.

They seem to balance the famous and the not-famous. They also try to balance geography; a Kenyan essayist was a much talked-about finalist, according to rumor.

Quote from: Brian on October 13, 2016, 12:52:22 PM
They seem to balance the famous and the not-famous. They also try to balance geography; a Kenyan essayist was a much talked-about finalist, according to rumor.

Yes indeed. And it certainly should put the odds in Adonis's favor next time - there's exactly one previous Arab winner of the Nobel prize for literature. Then again, maybe he will be dismissed as 'too obvious' because of the civil war in Syria.  ::)

Yeah, get over it Florestan. That Borges guy, what a fraud. And don't even get me started on that Tolstoy.

Quote from: Brian on October 13, 2016, 12:52:22 PM
They seem to balance the famous and the not-famous. They also try to balance geography; a Kenyan essayist was a much talked-about finalist, according to rumor.

A nice summary of the case against. If they next balance brown eyes against blue, grey, or green ...

Quote from: Ken B on October 13, 2016, 01:09:51 PM
A nice summary of the case against. If they next balance brown eyes against blue, grey, or green ...

Well, the essential issue is language. The judges obviously can't reward only people publishing in Swedish; but they also can't reward only people publishing in English. The publishing world is not yet meritocratic enough that the world's best writers all benefit from English translations. The Nobel Prize is often our only way of finding out about, say, a great Kenyan writer.

Quote from: Brian on October 13, 2016, 01:21:59 PM
Well, the essential issue is language. The judges obviously can't reward only people publishing in Swedish; but they also can't reward only people publishing in English. The publishing world is not yet meritocratic enough that the world's best writers all benefit from English translations. The Nobel Prize is often our only way of finding out about, say, a great Kenyan writer.

No, i meant more the fact that literary merit isn't the top, or possibly even a top, consideration.
I quite agree with your last statement, and would be much happier if they went just for such writers. Accomplishment deserving of much greater recognition, as it were.

Why Bob Dylan Deserves His Nobel Prize (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/why-bob-dylan-deserves-his-nobel-prize-w444799)
According to the Swedish Academy, Dylan won "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition"

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:38:58 PM
The point is, Tolstoy died in 1910, Ibsen in 1906. Dylan is still alive and producing poetry. They may very well have been deserving of a Nobel in 1916, but this is 2016. WTF? 

And either you are using rhetorical excess to make your point, or you really know nothing about Dylan. In this case, I'm not sure which is true. If you had been alive and sentient in the 1960's, you would have a far greater respect for him, I can assure you. You might still not like him, but you would know what he was about.

Subterranean Homesick Blues

Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine
I'm on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he's got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It's somethin' you did
God knows when
But you're doin' it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin' for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
By the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin' that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone's tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early May
Orders from the D.A.
Look out kid
Don't matter what you did
Walk on your tiptoes
Don't try "No-Doz"
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don't need a weatherman
To know which way the wind blows

I adore Bob Dylan and consider him one of the true geniuses that the U.S. has produced. But somehow I don't fee quite comfortable considering his oeuvre "literature." In any case, why quibble.  I won't think twice, it's alright.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 13, 2016, 02:26:13 PM
I adore Bob Dylan and consider him one of the true geniuses that the U.S. has produced. But somehow I don't fee quite comfortable considering his oeuvre "literature." In any case, why quibble.  I won't think twice, it's alright.

I know what you mean, although I certainly, back in the oh-so-liberal late '60's, studied 'songs as poetry', and bought into the concept. Even in Classical music, virtually all Lieder are poems set to music. The fact that not so many modern poets are the caliber of Goethe, or musicians at the level of Schubert doesn't change that basic fact. As it happens, Dylan is exceptional, but we knew that. :)

Just Like A Woman

Nobody feels any pain
Tonight as I stand inside the rain
Ev'rybody knows
That Baby's got new clothes
But lately I see her ribbons and her bows
Have fallen from her curls
She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 02:41:51 PMJust Like A Woman

Nobody feels any pain
Tonight as I stand inside the rain
Ev'rybody knows
That Baby's got new clothes
But lately I see her ribbons and her bows
Have fallen from her curls
She takes just like a woman, yes, she does
She makes love just like a woman, yes, she does
And she aches just like a woman
But she breaks just like a little girl.

Reading it, it doesn't do anything for me. I have to imagine him singing it for it to come together. That's why "literature" doesn't quite ring true to me.

In any case, I can't imagine a world without Dylan, just as I can't imaging a world in which there is no Beethoven's Fifth. Great art doesn't always respect boundaries.

Never heard anything by Bob Dylan. I must have lived in a hole for 40 yrs.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 13, 2016, 02:48:29 PM
Reading it, it doesn't do anything for me. I have to imagine him singing it for it to come together. That's why "literature" doesn't quite ring true to me.

In any case, I can't imagine a world without Dylan, just as I can't imaging a world in which there is no Beethoven's Fifth. Great art doesn't always respect boundaries.

I don't have to imagine it: I can't NOT imagine it.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 13, 2016, 03:28:36 PM
Never heard anything by Bob Dylan. I must have lived in a hole for 40 yrs.

I must say, that is absolutely incredible. I first heard Dylan in 1963. Then, when The Times They are a 'Changin' came out in 1964, the rest was history for me. I listened to that album again as recently as last week!  (nice to have Amazon Prime streaming!)  I knew Dylan before I knew the Beatles, and that's going back a way!  :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 04:04:02 PM


I must say, that is absolutely incredible. I first heard Dylan in 1963. Then, when The Times They are a 'Changin' came out in 1964, the rest was history for me. I listened to that album again as recently as last week!  (nice to have Amazon Prime streaming!)  I knew Dylan before I knew the Beatles, and that's going back a way!  :)

8)

I grew up and spent the better part of my life in the South Bronx where Yankee baseball was a hit and where Bob Dylan was pretty much not known I guess.

I'm a huge Dylan fan, know all of his albums backwards and have read a bookcase full of critical writings, and could make the argument that his work has been analysised with more seriousness than most poets of any time, and certainly with far more seriousness than standard music journalism of bands like the Beatles, and still without exhausting their riches...but think he's a bad fit for the Nobel Literature award, for some of the reasons listed above - and particularly agreeing that if it was between him and an obscure Kenyan essayist it should go to the latter.

I'd also point out that a great many of his songs are only as successful as their best take - the lyrics alone often wont survive a bad production or interpretation or change in time signature, but require specific musical rhythms and musical emphasis - as alternate versions in the Bootleg series have made clear.

I think he's one of the very great artists of the last hundred years, but they would have been better institutring a new award for multi-facet lifetime achievement in this case.

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on October 13, 2016, 04:38:20 PM
I grew up and spent the better part of my life in the South Bronx where Yankee baseball was a hit and where Bob Dylan was pretty much not known I guess.

Oh, I don't doubt in any way what you are saying, I just can't relate to it. I grew up not far away, a few hundred miles in Vermont, but I had a radio in my ear 24/7, even at 10 years old!  :)

8)

PS - There was no bigger Yankees Fan than me. :) 

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 13, 2016, 04:53:49 PM
I'm a huge Dylan fan, know all of his albums backwards and have read a bookcase full of critical writings, and could make the argument that his work has been analysised with more seriousness than most poets of any time, and certainly with far more seriousness than standard music journalism of bands like the Beatles, and still without exhausting their riches...but think he's a bad fit for the Nobel Literature award, for some of the reasons listed above - and particularly agreeing that if it was between him and an obscure Kenyan essayist it should go to the latter.

I'd also point out that a great many of his songs are only as successful as their best take - the lyrics alone often wont survive a bad production or interpretation or change in time signature, but require specific musical rhythms and musical emphasis - as alternate versions in the Bootleg series have made clear.

I think he's one of the very great artists of the last hundred years, but they would have been better instutring a new award for multi-facet lifetime achievement in this case.

There will be another award next year, and some whole new person will win, and this argument will happen all over again. Only the Kenyan will have won and Tolstoy will still have been snubbed, along with the Next Great Writer, and Bob's your uncle. This year, Dylan won and I am going to relish every moment of it.

8)


Lay, Lady, Lay
Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Whatever colors you have in your mind
I'll show them to you and you'll see them shine

Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay, stay with your man awhile
Until the break of day, let me see you make him smile

His clothes are dirty but his hands are clean
And you're the best thing that he's ever seen
Stay, lady, stay, stay with your man awhile

Why wait any longer for the world to begin
You can have your cake and eat it too
Why wait any longer for the one you love
When he's standing in front of you

Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay, stay while the night is still ahead
I long to see you in the morning light
I long to reach for you in the night

Stay, lady, stay, stay while the night is still ahead

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 05:02:17 PM
There will be another award next year, and some whole new person will win, and this argument will happen all over again. Only the Kenyan will have won and Tolstoy will still have been snubbed, along with the Next Great Writer, and Bob's your uncle. This year, Dylan won and I am going to relish every moment of it.

8)


Lay, Lady, Lay
Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Whatever colors you have in your mind
I'll show them to you and you'll see them shine

Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay, stay with your man awhile
Until the break of day, let me see you make him smile

His clothes are dirty but his hands are clean
And you're the best thing that he's ever seen
Stay, lady, stay, stay with your man awhile

Why wait any longer for the world to begin
You can have your cake and eat it too
Why wait any longer for the one you love
When he's standing in front of you

Lay, lady, lay, lay across my big brass bed
Stay, lady, stay, stay while the night is still ahead
I long to see you in the morning light
I long to reach for you in the night

Stay, lady, stay, stay while the night is still ahead

Wouldn't want to try and stop you - as I said I'm a huge Dylan fan. But I think a big part of the success and impact of Lay Lady Lay there is in the Nashville production, and the lyrics on their own wouldn't have had the same impact as literature if you'd stumbled on them in some anonymous anthology.

(also: I was wondering who this obscure Kenyan is, and found out its Ngugi Wa Thiong'o, who is not at all obscure - actually pretty well read and widely published over many decades, so I might have to disqualify him as well, not that he doesn't also deserve whatever praise and prizemoney for lifetime achievement comes his way - and I'd feel if he did that it was a more logical choice than Dylan)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DdwPC0LQL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51-TkU75BKL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41DauPDAyZL._OU01__BG0,0,0,0_FMpng_AC_UL320_SR210,320_.jpg) (http://i43.tower.com/images/mm121923477/a-grain-wheat-ngugi-wa-thiongo-paperback-cover-art.jpg)

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 13, 2016, 05:16:27 PM
Wouldn't want to try and stop you - as I said I'm a huge Dylan fan. But I think a big part of the success and impact of Lay Lady Lay there is in the Nashville production, and the lyrics on their own wouldn't have had the same impact as literature if you'd stumbled on them in some anonymous anthology.

I know a lot of things seem that way retrospectively, you read or hear something like that and you think 'no big deal, what's the fuss?'. 

But the first time, the first or second day after it was released, sitting in the quiet of my room and doing my homework, thinking about this girl I was crazy about as only hormone-saturated teens can be, I heard it on the radio and this voice who could be no one else came on and just hit on everything I was thinking about in a way that no one else had heard before, it was a magic thing for me. True, we've heard it a thousand times since then and it can never be the same, but in that time and place, Dylan was a genius and I was hearing it, just me, on my AM radio.  Those moments cannot be recaptured in your life, they are one and done. But it wasn't the production, it was the words, the rhythm, the viscerality of the already-getting-burnt voice.

I would have given him 2 awards, just for the hell of it.  :)

8)

This is also a great tribute to the generation of ballad singers / song writers / poets. I just used a Jackson Browne song (For A Dancer) from the same era in my poetry class last week.  :)

I guess if war criminals like Barack Obama and Henry Kissinger can win the Nobel Peace Prize, then maybe Dylan should get one for literature. Then, maybe we can give the prize for medicine to some prominent anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCarthy. She IS a voice for her people (stupid people) after all!

Dylan wrote some good lyrics. But Nobel Prize for Literature? Give me a break. There, I feel better. :)

Seriously, I don't understand the choice, though it is also true that I never formed a connection with him or his music. But the choice is like putting a square peg in a round hole. Have any other musicians gotten one? I guess the criteria are not limited to books and such as I would expect. Perhaps someone could explain what "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition" means.

My opinion: Dylan is a fly fart in a hurricane compared to this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4btOXkGpwA8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_05E56Nn0g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M0RGtmL2qY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-SWmHSEQfQ

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on October 13, 2016, 07:01:49 PM
I guess if war criminals like Barack Obama and Henry Kissinger can win the Nobel Peace Prize, then maybe Dylan should get one for literature. Then, maybe we can give the prize for medicine to some prominent anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCarthy. She IS a voice for her people (stupid people) after all!

You are ignorant about vaccines.  They are unsafe, one only has to read the package insert to know that.  Further, The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 eliminates manufacturer liability for a vaccine's unavoidable, adverse side effects.  Language the Supreme Court rubber stamped.

The law was created by Congress in response to lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry and medical trade associations to shield drug companies and doctors from civil product liability and malpractice lawsuits for injuries and deaths caused by federally recommended and state mandated vaccines.

The law, which acknowledged that vaccines carry serious risks, created a federal vaccine injury compensation program (VICP).  By 2013, the VICP had awarded more than $2.6 billion to vaccine injured individuals and their families; however two out of three vaccine injury claims are rejected for compensation. Injuries and deaths from pertussis-containing vaccines lead in the numbers of compensation awards, followed by influenza vaccine, MMR vaccine and hepatitis B vaccine.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2016, 07:37:53 PM
You are ignorant about vaccines.  They are unsafe, one only has to read the package insert to know that.  Further, The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 eliminates manufacturer liability for a vaccine's unavoidable, adverse side effects.  Language the Supreme Court rubber stamped.

The law was created by Congress in response to lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry and medical trade associations to shield drug companies and doctors from civil product liability and malpractice lawsuits for injuries and deaths caused by federally recommended and state mandated vaccines.

The law, which acknowledged that vaccines carry serious risks, created a federal vaccine injury compensation program (VICP).  By 2013, the VICP had awarded more than $2.6 billion to vaccine injured individuals and their families; however two out of three vaccine injury claims are rejected for compensation. Injuries and deaths from pertussis-containing vaccines lead in the numbers of compensation awards, followed by influenza vaccine, MMR vaccine and hepatitis B vaccine.

Sorry to derail the thread.

I am sorry but I will not let this pass. I respect you David, but this is dangerous tripe, and it is beyond ironic for you to call someone else ignorant about vaccines. Lawsuits? Will you cite Old Lady v McDonalds on the danger of coffee?
Sorry to continue the derailment.

Puff Daddy was robbed!

Quote from: springrite on October 13, 2016, 06:13:07 PM
This is also a great tribute to the generation of ballad singers / song writers / poets. I just used a Jackson Browne song (For A Dancer) from the same era in my poetry class last week.  :)

Is it? Doesn't it really just pile yet more attention on the guy who already had more than the rest of them together? Would a Nobel for Madonna really be a tribute to the generation of baby-boomer Catholic girls born in the rust belt?

It's interesting what the fans of this award cite: the music, the voice, their youthful boners. Fine things all, but not really literary merit, and all tending to buttress Irvine Welsh's caustic observation. (I must add him to my reading list.)

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2016, 07:37:53 PM
You are ignorant about vaccines.  They are unsafe, one only has to read the package insert to know that.  Further, The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 eliminates manufacturer liability for a vaccine's unavoidable, adverse side effects.  Language the Supreme Court rubber stamped.

The law was created by Congress in response to lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry and medical trade associations to shield drug companies and doctors from civil product liability and malpractice lawsuits for injuries and deaths caused by federally recommended and state mandated vaccines.

The law, which acknowledged that vaccines carry serious risks, created a federal vaccine injury compensation program (VICP).  By 2013, the VICP had awarded more than $2.6 billion to vaccine injured individuals and their families; however two out of three vaccine injury claims are rejected for compensation. Injuries and deaths from pertussis-containing vaccines lead in the numbers of compensation awards, followed by influenza vaccine, MMR vaccine and hepatitis B vaccine.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Sorry but I cannot abstain from commenting that
:o :o :o ??? ??? ??? ?

Anyway, good for Bob Dylan but as already said before, many people deserve the prize more and before him. If anything, in terms of ... money?

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on October 13, 2016, 07:01:49 PM
I guess if war criminals like Barack Obama and Henry Kissinger can win the Nobel Peace Prize, then maybe Dylan should get one for literature. Then, maybe we can give the prize for medicine to some prominent anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCarthy. She IS a voice for her people (stupid people) after all!

Yassir Arafat also got the Nobel Peace Prize.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2016, 07:37:53 PM


Sorry to derail the thread.

Sorry to call this crazy.

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on October 13, 2016, 09:27:44 PM
Yassir Arafat also got the Nobel Peace Prize.

jointly with Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin "for their efforts to create peace in the Middle East".

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:09:19 PM
Go ahead and be bitter, those that are. I don't care. I grew up in that era, and you can well believe that all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over, didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had. And if the songs you listen to are not poetry, you ain't listening to the right songs.

8)

:)

I hear Céline Dion is seriously being considered for the Grawemeyer Award....

It's hardly a secret that the Nobel committee is fallible. They missed fairly obvious people even in hard sciences (e.g. Lise Meitner who should have received it instead or together with Hahn (but in physics, not chemistry) and the Peace Prize has been awarded to a number of war criminals (Kissinger) as well as terrorists (Arafat) or people who didn't really do anything for it (Obama).

The prize for literature is not quite but almost as bad with some clear political choices (Churchill, apparently they still had some qualms about the Peace Prize back then) and the odd balance between geographical regions without being able to escape a Western or even English language bias. A German writer in the 1950s said what is easy to translate will get that prize. (This actually makes sense, it's simply an unfairness that is almost impossible to avoid.)
There have also been candidates who already were world-famous and rich (e.g. Thomas Mann) when they received the prize, others not well known except among experts. It's certainly not supposed to be a prize to put a comparably young/unknown author on the map.
No musician I am aware of but a number of historians (Mommsen, Churchill ;)), Philosophers (most famous ones are Bergson, Russell and Sartre who refused it) received the prize and last year's laureat was more a journalist, AFAIK.

So I don't think it helps to blame the actual decision for the committee neglecting Tolstoy in the first 10 prizes (it cannot be awarded posthumously). I don't know why they did that. If one looks at the first laureates 1901-10 (several of which I had not even heard the name of) the only ones that seem close to Tolstoy in fame today are Kipling and Lagerlöf (today mainly known for a children's book...) and maybe Mommsen (a historian).

My impression is that the people most dissatisfied with Dylan getting the prize are fans of e.g. Philip Roth and other older American authors who have been perennial candidates but will almost certainly not receive it now because of the "geographical balancing" it will be a while until another American gets it.

Morning from the UK folks. I have had some corr with someone who is not happy about the temporary derailment of the thread. Please do not allow the current political issues, which are very widely explored elsewhere in the Diner, to infect this thread.

Thanks,

Knight

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:38:58 PM
this is 2016. WTF?

Precisely. Why giving the prize to someone whose main achievements date from the 60s and 70s of the last century?

Quote
And either you are using rhetorical excess to make your point, or you really know nothing about Dylan. In this case, I'm not sure which is true. If you had been alive and sentient in the 1960's, you would have a far greater respect for him, I can assure you. You might still not like him, but you would know what he was about.

You didn´t get it. I have nothing againts Bob Dylan. My issue is with the decision of the Nobel literary committee. The Nobel Prize for Literature (literature, for God´s sake) to someone who hasn´t written one single book in his whole life? Give me a break, amigo.

Quote from: Ken B on October 13, 2016, 08:14:12 PM
It's interesting what the fans of this award cite: the music, the voice, their youthful boners.

And a couple lyrics which I am sure have highly sentimental value for some people but whose Nobel-worth is highly debatable.

I found the voice always fairly terrible and usually prefer cover versions (interestingly, several Dylan songs became most famous as sung by Hendrix or Joan Baez). But now reading through some of the quoted lyrics in this thread it struck me that they work much better sung (and probably in Dylans distinctive "ugly" voice and style).

So while I only familiar with a small portion of his output, I am ever more in doubt that this is great poetry. He also wrote one or more rambling "prose poems" as "liner notes" to his then (or ex) girlfriend Baez. I recall these as more of a curiosity but I am certainly not an expert on modern lyrical poetry. Not sure if he did any more of this stuff outside song lyrics.

Transcript of the deliberations of the Nobel prize committee:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CupNsNFWAAA0i30.jpg)

- Let's give the prize to Haruki Miru...Huraki...
- It's Hikaru Makirumi
- Hariku Mukirami?
- Haiku...
- To hell with it, let Bob Dylan have it...

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 13, 2016, 07:05:42 PM
Perhaps someone could explain what "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition" means.

It means they have just sunk the NPL deep into irrelevance and silliness.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 13, 2016, 07:05:42 PMDylan wrote some good lyrics. But Nobel Prize for Literature? Give me a break.

Quote"An ill-conceived nostalgia award wrenched from the rancid prostates of senile, gibbering hippies," wrote "Trainspotting" novelist Irvine Welsh. "I totally get the Nobel committee," tweeted author Gary Shteyngart. "Reading books is hard."

Amen.

These things generally divide people between lovers and haters. I love literature, but I don't care about the Nobel Prize, probably because I don't recall any Nobel Prize winner as important to my intellectual formation.

That said, it's a matter of fact that Mr. Dylan writes -and very well according the reports of his fans- but his influence, I think, is referred to his career as performing artist, a singer who composes his own lyrics, so I think all of this issue involves a major reading comprehension problem on the part of the members of the jury of the Nobel Prize.  ;D

Quote from: arpeggio on October 13, 2016, 11:30:20 AM
Why not  :)

Because he's a musician - a song-writer.

I've never previously come across song-writing being classified as literature.

Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2016, 01:02:57 AM
 

Precisely. Why giving the prize to someone whose main achievements date from the 60s and 70s of the last century?

You didn´t get it. I have nothing againts Bob Dylan. My issue is with the decision of the Nobel literary committee. The Nobel Prize for Literature (literature, for God´s sake) to someone who hasn´t written one single book in his whole life? Give me a break, amigo.

And a couple lyrics which I am sure have highly sentimental value for some people but whose Nobel-worth is highly debatable.

In fact he wrote a highly regarded memoir and I think a book of poetry, although that is not what the prize is for.

We can legitimately debate whether his songs fit the category of literature, but I don't see the sense in you running down the quality of work you seem to have no familiarity with.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 07:04:08 AM
In fact he wrote a highly regarded memoir and I think a book of poetry, although that is not what the prize is for.

We can legitimately debate whether his songs fit the category of literature, but I don't see the sense in you running down the quality of work you seem to have no familiarity with.

That's why I quit, too. I am fully content, I honestly don't give a flying f*** what anyone else thinks. :)

8)

Quote from: Reckoner on October 14, 2016, 04:06:05 AM
Because he's a musician - a song-writer.

I've never previously come across song-writing being classified as literature.

So, now you have - it's a simple twist of fate.  :D

Bob Dylan's lyrics are literature, imo.  The fact that he wrote songs as opposed to poetry or novels is neither here nor there.  He wrote exceptionally well in the form he chose to express himself. 

Now listening to Amazon's Dylan Nobel Playlist.

;)

Quote from: Herman on October 13, 2016, 12:03:52 PM
Because it's a massive, monumental middle finger to the entire literary world (of which, of course, the jury is a part, to a degree)?

To give the prize to Bob Dylan in 2016 is about as provocative or "countercultural" as having a print of a Warhol picture in one's living room... Neither young nor wild...

But the best comment is probably: Don't think twice - it's alright!

:D

(Leider nicht von mir, I read it somewhere else today)

Coincidentally I watched this splendid 8 minute video essay on Dylan's All Along the Watchtower earlier this week, without knowing he was even considered for the award. And I see the title of the video has been changed since June.

https://www.youtube.com/v/In6gCrGeZfA

Isn't this somewhat like giving Wagner (lets assume Nobel prize had been around in his lifetime) the prize for literature for his libretti?

I mean, I guess that'd be fine. Except nobody considers Wagner a librettist in isolation.  :P

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 07:05:27 AM
That's why I quit, too. I am fully content, I honestly don't give a flying f*** what anyone else thinks. :)

8)

Gosh, That is so unlike you!

Mike

Dario Fo, the italian playwright died yesterday. He received the Nobel prize in 1997. There was lots of hoopla and protests at the time, including - mainly, in fact - from his native Italy. An iconoclast who despised institutions, he was the subject of constant critics and derisive comments. Because of his political activities he was barred from entering the USA.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Fo

His receipt of the 1997 Nobel Prize in Literature marked the "international acknowledgment of Fo as a major figure in twentieth-century world theatre". The Swedish Academy praised Fo as a writer "who emulates the jesters of the Middle Ages in scourging authority and upholding the dignity of the downtrodden". He owned and operated a theatre company. Fo was an atheist.

It seems the Nobel Committee sometimes likes to ruffle some feathers. Good for them.  :D

After reading some of the reactions to my OP I am reminded of the great atonal/tonal debate: a complete waste of time.  The same nonsense is occurring in Talk Classical.  No one has started a thread about this at Amazon.  If it is going to cause the same type of immature sniping, I am not going to start one.

The point is that the whole awards scene is very uneven.  I am sure we can come up with all sorts of award winners in various venues that are undeserving.  Like Shakespeare in Love winning best picture over Saving Private Ryan.  I am certain that there are those who would prefer i]Shakespeare in Love[/i].  So what?

I can understand that some my not like the selection.  To be frank many of their arguments are bogus.  Like the one that he has not written anything that is worthy in the past twenty years.  So it would have been OK to give him the award twenty years ago? No that is not it.  It its clear that many do not like the idea that the award was received by a rock artist.

I wonder how many were offended when the Pulitzer was awarded to a jazz artist or the first time it was awarded to an atonal (whatever that means) work.  I can imagine what would happen if John Williams were awarded a Pulitzer for a soundtrack.  I am certain we would be subjected to a resounding chorus of, "How dare they".

I have not seen a convincing argument on why a libretto or lyrics can not be considered literature.  Maybe a more interesting discussion would be if there are other lyricist who may deserve the honor like Stephen Sondheim.

If some of the members do not understand why some of us are excited over the choice and they want to trash the decision, that is there problem not mine.

Quote from: arpeggio on October 14, 2016, 09:17:52 AM
After reading some of the reactions to my OP I am reminded of the great atonal/tonal debate: a complete waste of time.  The same nonsense is occurring in Talk Classical.  No one has started a thread about this at Amazon.  If it is going to cause the same type of immature sniping, I am not going to start one.

So you create a thread with the expectation that every post will be exactly in line with your view?

And then when there are opposing views presented, you pass this off as "immature sniping", "nonsense" and a "complete waste of time".

Cool.

Quote from: knight66 on October 14, 2016, 08:42:19 AM
Gosh, That is so unlike you!

Mike

Yes, isn't it? 0:)   :D

8)

I bought my girl
A herd of moose,
One she could call her own.
Well, she came out the very next day
To see where they had flown.

The only response I have to those who are unhappy with the Nobel Prize Committees choice is that one person's meat is another person's poison.

Beyond that I do not know what else I can say.

At first I thought to come here and post about how this whole thing is an insult to anyone who's ever written a book, and how I'd pretty much only continue to respect Bob Dylan if he point-blank rejected the award himself, but then I remembered that the Nobel Prize has pretty much become an utter joke in recent times, so, hell, why not I guess.

If Bob Dylan kicks the bucket this year, then I'll start believing in karma.

Quote from: arpeggio on October 14, 2016, 10:23:32 AM
The only response I have to those who are unhappy with the Nobel Prize Committees choice is that one person's meat is another person's poison.

Beyond that I do not know what else I can say.

You're making a false equivalency with these "tonal/atonal debate" comparisons. I do not reject this whole thing because I am so foolish as to call Bob Dylan's lyrics "bad lyrics", but rather because I will be so bold as to say that "lyrics" (whether Bob Dylan or god awful Decemberists drivel) are about as much "literature" as they are "potatoes".

Quote from: nathanb on October 14, 2016, 10:29:39 AM
You're making a false equivalency with these "tonal/atonal debate" comparisons. I do not reject this whole thing because I am so foolish as to call Bob Dylan's lyrics "bad lyrics", but rather because I will be so bold as to say that "lyrics" (whether Bob Dylan or god awful Decemberists drivel) are about as much "literature" as they are "potatoes".

So what you are saying is that you do not consider lyric poetry a form of literature. OK.

Now the senator came down here
Showing everyone his gun
Handing out free tickets
To the wedding of his son
And me, I nearly got busted
And wouldn't it be my luck
To get caught without a ticket
And be discovered beneath a truck

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 10:37:46 AM
So what you are saying is that you do not consider lyric poetry a form of literature. OK.

Not to mention the "ballad", a poetic form.

::)

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 10:37:46 AM
So what you are saying is that you do not consider lyric poetry a form of literature. OK.

I mean, yeah, I get that if I'm a Nobel Prize committee member, and I really like Bob Dylan's lyrics, but there's not a major category for song lyrics... I suppose I might be compelled to say "well, maybe we could give him a prize for like, literature... or physics... or anything, because words are subjective, man".

Unfortunately, I would not do this personally, because I have some notion of personal shame.

There should be no debate here. Written lyrics without music are poetry, end of. And poetry is literature, end of. Composers have set words to music since time immemorial. It is possible to compose entirely new music for an already-established set of lyrics. Just look at John Corigliano, who set 7 of Bob Dylan's poems for soprano and orchestra without having prior heard the original musical settings.

Quote from: André on October 14, 2016, 09:13:56 AM
Dario Fo, the italian playwright died yesterday. He received the Nobel prize in 1997. There was lots of hoopla and protests at the time, including - mainly, in fact - from his native Italy. An iconoclast who despised institutions

He despised institutions yet he gladly accepted a sizeable amount of money from one such institution.

The world needs more talkin' blues. This was probably a prototype for 'Alice's Restaurant Massacree'

Some Dylan you won't hear just everywhere. :)

Talkin' Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues

I saw it advertised one day
Bear Mountain picnic was comin' my way
"Come along 'n' take a trip
We'll bring you up there on a ship
Bring the wife and kids
Bring the whole family"
Yippee!

Well, I run right down 'n' bought a ticket
To this Bear Mountain Picnic
But little did I realize
I was in for a picnic surprise
Had nothin' to do with mountains
I didn't even come close to a bear

Took the wife 'n' kids down to the pier
Six thousand people there
Everybody had a ticket for the trip
"Oh well," I said, "it's a pretty big ship
Besides, anyway, the more the merrier"

Well, we all got on 'n' what d'ya think
That big old boat started t' sink
More people kept a-pilin' on
That old ship was a-slowly goin' down
Funny way t' start a picnic

Well, I soon lost track of m' kids 'n' wife
So many people there I never saw in m' life
That old ship sinkin' down in the water
Six thousand people tryin' t' kill each other
Dogs a-barkin', cats a-meowin'
Women screamin', fists a-flyin', babies cryin'
Cops a-comin', me a-runnin'
Maybe we just better call off the picnic

I got shoved down 'n' pushed around
All I could hear there was a screamin' sound
Don't remember one thing more
Just remember wakin' up on a little shore
Head busted, stomach cracked
Feet splintered, I was bald, naked . . .
Quite lucky to be alive though

Feelin' like I climbed outa m' casket
I grabbed back hold of m' picnic basket
Took the wife 'n' kids 'n' started home
Wishin' I'd never got up that morn

Now, I don't care just what you do
If you wanta have a picnic, that's up t' you
But don't tell me about it, I don't wanta hear it
'Cause, see, I just lost all m' picnic spirit
Stay in m' kitchen, have m' own picnic . . .
In the bathroom

Now, it don't seem to me quite so funny
What some people are gonna do f'r money
There's a bran' new gimmick every day
Just t' take somebody's money away
I think we oughta take some o' these people
And put 'em on a boat, send 'em up to Bear Mountain . . .
For a picnic

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 10:48:24 AM
The world needs more talkin' blues. This was probably a prototype for 'Alice's Restaurant Massacree'

Some Dylan you won't hear just everywhere. :)

Talkin' Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues

I saw it advertised one day
Bear Mountain picnic was comin' my way
"Come along 'n' take a trip
We'll bring you up there on a ship
Bring the wife and kids
Bring the whole family"
Yippee!

Well, I run right down 'n' bought a ticket
To this Bear Mountain Picnic
But little did I realize
I was in for a picnic surprise
Had nothin' to do with mountains
I didn't even come close to a bear

Took the wife 'n' kids down to the pier
Six thousand people there
Everybody had a ticket for the trip
"Oh well," I said, "it's a pretty big ship
Besides, anyway, the more the merrier"

Well, we all got on 'n' what d'ya think
That big old boat started t' sink
More people kept a-pilin' on
That old ship was a-slowly goin' down
Funny way t' start a picnic

Well, I soon lost track of m' kids 'n' wife
So many people there I never saw in m' life
That old ship sinkin' down in the water
Six thousand people tryin' t' kill each other
Dogs a-barkin', cats a-meowin'
Women screamin', fists a-flyin', babies cryin'
Cops a-comin', me a-runnin'
Maybe we just better call off the picnic

I got shoved down 'n' pushed around
All I could hear there was a screamin' sound
Don't remember one thing more
Just remember wakin' up on a little shore
Head busted, stomach cracked
Feet splintered, I was bald, naked . . .
Quite lucky to be alive though

Feelin' like I climbed outa m' casket
I grabbed back hold of m' picnic basket
Took the wife 'n' kids 'n' started home
Wishin' I'd never got up that morn

Now, I don't care just what you do
If you wanta have a picnic, that's up t' you
But don't tell me about it, I don't wanta hear it
'Cause, see, I just lost all m' picnic spirit
Stay in m' kitchen, have m' own picnic . . .
In the bathroom

Now, it don't seem to me quite so funny
What some people are gonna do f'r money
There's a bran' new gimmick every day
Just t' take somebody's money away
I think we oughta take some o' these people
And put 'em on a boat, send 'em up to Bear Mountain . . .
For a picnic

We get it. You like his lyrics. Now show us a sample of this "literature" the prize is supposedly about.

Quote from: nathanb on October 14, 2016, 10:49:23 AM
We get it. You like his lyrics. Now show us a sample of this "literature" the prize is supposedly about.

I warn't on the committee,
more's the pity.

Curious what your definition of literature is.
Mark Twain would'a called you names.
Not me though, I'm just glad to be here
Readin' pomes
And laughin' at the world.
(That portion which has a stick up its ass, that is)
Present company always excepted.

8)

Quote from: nathanb on October 14, 2016, 10:49:23 AM
We get it. You like his lyrics. Now show us a sample of this "literature" the prize is supposedly about.

QuoteI met the Bishop on the road
And much said he and I.
`Those breasts are flat and fallen now
Those veins must soon be dry;
Live in a heavenly mansion,
Not in some foul sty.'

`Fair and foul are near of kin,
And fair needs foul,' I cried.
'My friends are gone, but that's a truth
Nor grave nor bed denied,
Learned in bodily lowliness
And in the heart's pride.

`A woman can be proud and stiff
When on love intent;
But Love has pitched his mansion in
The place of excrement;
For nothing can be sole or whole
That has not been rent.'

Oh, that was Yeats, another winner of the Nobel Prize for Lyrics.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 10:48:24 AM
The world needs more talkin' blues. This was probably a prototype for 'Alice's Restaurant Massacree'

Some Dylan you won't hear just everywhere. :)

Talkin' Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre Blues

I saw it advertised one day
Bear Mountain picnic was comin' my way
"Come along 'n' take a trip
We'll bring you up there on a ship
Bring the wife and kids
Bring the whole family"
Yippee!

Well, I run right down 'n' bought a ticket
To this Bear Mountain Picnic
But little did I realize
I was in for a picnic surprise
Had nothin' to do with mountains
I didn't even come close to a bear

Took the wife 'n' kids down to the pier
Six thousand people there
Everybody had a ticket for the trip
"Oh well," I said, "it's a pretty big ship
Besides, anyway, the more the merrier"

Well, we all got on 'n' what d'ya think
That big old boat started t' sink
More people kept a-pilin' on
That old ship was a-slowly goin' down
Funny way t' start a picnic

Well, I soon lost track of m' kids 'n' wife
So many people there I never saw in m' life
That old ship sinkin' down in the water
Six thousand people tryin' t' kill each other
Dogs a-barkin', cats a-meowin'
Women screamin', fists a-flyin', babies cryin'
Cops a-comin', me a-runnin'
Maybe we just better call off the picnic

I got shoved down 'n' pushed around
All I could hear there was a screamin' sound
Don't remember one thing more
Just remember wakin' up on a little shore
Head busted, stomach cracked
Feet splintered, I was bald, naked . . .
Quite lucky to be alive though

Feelin' like I climbed outa m' casket
I grabbed back hold of m' picnic basket
Took the wife 'n' kids 'n' started home
Wishin' I'd never got up that morn

Now, I don't care just what you do
If you wanta have a picnic, that's up t' you
But don't tell me about it, I don't wanta hear it
'Cause, see, I just lost all m' picnic spirit
Stay in m' kitchen, have m' own picnic . . .
In the bathroom

Now, it don't seem to me quite so funny
What some people are gonna do f'r money
There's a bran' new gimmick every day
Just t' take somebody's money away
I think we oughta take some o' these people
And put 'em on a boat, send 'em up to Bear Mountain . . .
For a picnic

Yer gonna need a bigger boat.

Quote from: Maestro267 on October 14, 2016, 10:43:32 AM
Written lyrics without music are poetry, end of.

It should be noted what purpose lyrics are written for. In Bob's case, they're written to be sung to music. Without music, such lyrics are not necessarily self-sufficient, and they don't constitute poetry in isolation without the music simply because they are "written lyrics".

This is entirely different to a poet who composes a poem for the express purpose of having those words being read or recited, in order to express or convey meaning solely via the use of words.

Quote from: Reckoner on October 14, 2016, 11:33:31 AM
It should be noted what purpose lyrics are written for. In Dylan's case, they are written to be sung to music. Without music those lyrics are not necessarily self-sufficient, and they do not constitute poetry in isolation without music simply because they are "written lyrics".

This is entirely different to a poet who composes a poem for the express purpose of having those words being read or recited, in order to convey meaning solely via the use of words.

Ah, man give it a rest. 

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You'd know what a drag it is
To see you

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2016, 11:36:08 AM
Ah, man give it a rest. 

Eh, I thought I'd keep writing stuff here - I might win the Nobel Prize for Literature. ;D

Quote from: Reckoner on October 14, 2016, 11:39:13 AM
Eh, I thought I'd keep writing stuff here - I might win the Nobel Prize for Literature. ;D

If the current trends continue, in a few years we could see the Nobel Prize for Literature awarded to tweets. Why not?

Quote from: Reckoner on October 14, 2016, 11:33:31 AM
It should be noted what purpose lyrics are written for. In Bob's case, they're written to be sung to music. Without music, such lyrics are not necessarily self-sufficient, and they don't constitute poetry in isolation without the music simply because they are "written lyrics".

This is entirely different to a poet who composes a poem for the express purpose of having those words being read or recited, in order to express or convey meaning solely via the use of words.

Spot on.

Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2016, 11:43:37 AM
If the current trends continue, in a few years we could see the Nobel Prize for Literature awarded to tweets. Why not?

Which trends?

Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2016, 11:43:37 AM
If the current trends continue, in a few years we could see the Nobel Prize for Literature awarded to tweets. Why not?

If the tweets have as much merit as Dylan's work . . . .

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 14, 2016, 11:46:11 AM
If the tweets have as much merit as Dylan's work . . . .

I guess it´s quite possible that a time will come when we´ll lament the good old days when Dylan received it...

So to whom would you have awarded it this year, Andrei?

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 11:54:09 AM
So to whom would you have awarded it this year, Andrei?

To a genuine writer who writes genuine books intended for genuine reading. Plenty of names they could have chosen from, some have already been mentioned.

Fair enough, although writing 'genuine books' as a requirement is a bit odd. Published in several languages is something I would appreciate in a laureate, certainly, but I don't see how 'books' (basically novels) are inherently better than novellas, short stories, poetry, or journalism.

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 12:05:03 PM
Fair enough, although writing 'genuine books' as a requirement is a bit odd. Published in several languages is something I would appreciate in a laureate, certainly, but I don't see how 'books' (basically novels) are inherently better than novellas, short stories, poetry, or journalism.

Or songs/albums ...

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2016, 12:07:11 PM
Or songs/albums ...

Quite.

I wonder if David Simon will win the prize for The Wire and Treme. ;)

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 12:05:03 PM
Fair enough, although writing 'genuine books' as a requirement is a bit odd. Published in several languages is something I would appreciate in a laureate, certainly, but I don't see how 'books' (basically novels) are inherently better than novellas, short stories, poetry, or journalism.

I don´t agree that books equals novels. There are plenty of books made up of novellas, short stories and poetry --- and essays, which is also a genuine literary genre, and a difficult one at that. You mentioned Yeats earlier: he deservedly received his Nobel prize for his poems which appeared in dedicated volumes, ie books.

As for journalism, there is a dedicated prize.

Quote from: Florestan on October 14, 2016, 12:13:48 PM
I don´t agree that books equals novels. There are plenty of books made up of novellas, short stories and poetry --- and essays, which is also a genuine literary genre, and a difficult one at that. You mentioned Yeats earlier: he deservedly received his Nobel prize for his poems which appeared in dedicated volumes, ie books.

Sure, essays, and drama, and all sorts of other genres of literature. I hesitate to point out that Dylan's ouevre appears in dedicated volumes, too.  0:)

QuoteAs for journalism, there is a dedicated prize.

Oh, which prize do you mean?

A Book!

[asin]1451648766[/asin]

;)

I prefer non-fiction. Some of the best non-fiction I have read is easily equal to the best novels, shouldn't it be literature? They are 'genuine books' after all...  ::)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 12:27:46 PM
I prefer non-fiction. Some of the best non-fiction I have read is easily equal to the best novels, shouldn't it be literature? They are 'genuine books' after all...  ::)

8)

Absolutely.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 12:27:46 PM
I prefer non-fiction. Some of the best non-fiction I have read is easily equal to the best novels, shouldn't it be literature? They are 'genuine books' after all...  ::)

8)

I take literature to be a verbal work of the imagination, which would allow fiction, poetry and maybe song lyrics. Dylan is one of the few songwriters whose lyrics strike me as "literary." Non fiction seems something else to me.

But of course the Nobel committee is responsible only to itself and is free to decide for itself what it considers "literature." I find it surprising that people get so bent out of shape over what is "worthy" of Nobel prize consideration.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 12:42:54 PM
I take literature to be a verbal work of the imagination, which would allow fiction, poetry and maybe song lyrics. Dylan is one of the few songwriters whose lyrics strike me as "literary." Non fiction seems something else to me.

Well, Nobel didn't specify that the award should be for a work of fiction, and the word literature refers to both fiction and nonfiction. And what do you make of e.g. Borges' works, when he published essays, short stories, literary criticism, poetry, and short prose together?

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 12:42:54 PM
I take literature to be a verbal work of the imagination, which would allow fiction, poetry and maybe song lyrics. Dylan is one of the few songwriters whose lyrics strike me as "literary." Non fiction seems something else to me.

But of course the Nobel committee is responsible only to itself and is free to decide for itself what it considers "literature." I find it surprising that people get so bent out of shape over what is "worthy" of Nobel prize consideration.

There is that, which is where my prejudice led me. But then there is this:

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 01:03:19 PM
Well, Nobel didn't specify that the award should be for a work of fiction, and the word literature refers to both fiction and nonfiction. And what do you make of e.g. Borges' works, when he published essays, short stories, literary criticism, poetry, and short prose together?

Which changes the equation altogether. I wasn't being facetious, I just thought as you do. BUt if the prize was intended to be more all-encompassing, then by god, it should encompass more. :)

8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 01:08:55 PM
There is that, which is where my prejudice led me. But then there is this:

Which changes the equation altogether. I wasn't being facetious, I just thought as you do. BUt if the prize was intended to be more all-encompassing, then by god, it should encompass more. :)

8)

Indeed. Winston Spencer Churchill got it for his history of the Second World War, and for his speeches during the war.

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 01:13:11 PM
Indeed. Winston Spencer Churchill got it for his history of the Second World War, and for his speeches during the war.

Both of which are categorized by some as fiction.  :)

If they wanted to award a songwriter, I think Leonard Cohen might have been a better choice. He was actually a poet and novelist before he even ventured into music. (Note: I haven't read his literary works, and have no idea how good they are.) But I doubt they would give it to another Canadian so soon after Alice Munro.

The next step will be to give it to a film director. But almost all the great film directors are dead. Which means they might have to look to TV, so I would not be surprised if something like this happened:

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 12:09:38 PM

I wonder if David Simon will win the prize for The Wire and Treme. ;)

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 01:20:10 PM
Both of which are categorized by some as fiction.  :)

I'm sure that is why he qualified :D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 01:08:55 PMWhich changes the equation altogether. I wasn't being facetious, I just thought as you do. BUt if the prize was intended to be more all-encompassing, then by god, it should encompass more. :)

8)

I'm not bothered by Dylan getting the prize, but the most cogent argument against it was something that was mentioned in a NY Times opinion piece. Basically, the Nobel for literature is an opportunity to bring an author to the world's attention. Is there anyone on God's green earth that hasn't already heard of Bob Dylan?

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 12:28:57 PM
Absolutely.

Good thing Churchill wrote so many novels then.

Quote from: Ken B on October 14, 2016, 01:23:44 PM
Good thing Churchill wrote so many novels then.

Just the one; Savrola.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 01:22:46 PM
I'm not bothered by Dylan getting the prize, but the most cogent argument against it was something that was mentioned in a NY Times opinion piece. Basically, the Nobel for literature is an opportunity to bring an author to the world's attention. Is there anyone on God's green earth that hasn't already heard of Bob Dylan?

Yes, that was my reaction as well.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 01:22:46 PM
I'm not bothered by Dylan getting the prize, but the most cogent argument against it was something that was mentioned in a NY Times opinion piece. Basically, the Nobel for literature is an opportunity to bring an author to the world's attention. Is there anyone on God's green earth that hasn't already heard of Bob Dylan?

I would be stunned by that question if not, just last night, a poster here whom I have known for many years piped in that he had never heard a single Dylan song, even though he grew up in the Bronx, NYC. So yes, there actually is someone who needs to at least hear Positively 4th Street before making the call.   :D

8)

Quote from: Scarpia on October 14, 2016, 01:22:46 PM
I'm not bothered by Dylan getting the prize, but the most cogent argument against it was something that was mentioned in a NY Times opinion piece. Basically, the Nobel for literature is an opportunity to bring an author to the world's attention. Is there anyone on God's green earth that hasn't already heard of Bob Dylan?

Exactly. It was originally an aspirational prize, to encourage literature where it might not otherwise thrive. The incentive aspect was important. Obscure Greek poets, brave novelists in Turkey, Romanian playwrights who aren't serial killers. Does anyone really need more incentive to become a rock star?

Personally I think its telling that his one collection of actual poetry, Tarantulla, is probably the most poorly recieved things he's done, both critically and in sales. And that his"poetical"  free-associating liner notes for himself and others are justly felt to little more than wannabe Kerouac. The disparate episodes in the "memoirs" are a fascinating short read, but you'd never compare the prose or self-analysis in those to Proust.

Like I said, I'm a huge Dylan fan, but it made more sense when he got a special Pulitzer Music award in 2008 for lifetime achievement.

It's also been a little saddening to me reading comments about this all over the internet that almost all of the examples people choose to cite from his lyrics are taken only from a handful of early albums, and not from the so many great later works. In fact, if this is going to be based just on his sixties work and bits of the early seventies then it might have made more sense to give him the Peace prize.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2016, 01:26:34 PM
I would be stunned by that question if not, just last night, a poster here whom I have known for many years piped in that he had never heard a single Dylan song, even though he grew up in the Bronx, NYC. So yes, there actually is someone who needs to at least hear Positively 4th Street before making the call.   :D

8)

If he has to hear it, not read it, QED.

Quote from: Ken B on October 14, 2016, 01:28:45 PM
Exactly. It was originally an aspirational prize, to encourage literature where it might not otherwise thrive. The incentive aspect was important. Obscure Greek poets, brave novelists in Turkey, Romanian playwrights who aren't serial killers. Does anyone really need more incentive to become a rock star?

Huh?

QuoteAmong the five prizes provided for in Alfred Nobel's will (1895), one was intended for the person who, in the literary field, had produced "the most outstanding work in an ideal direction". The Laureate should be determined by "the Academy in Stockholm", which was specified by the statutes of the Nobel Foundation to mean the Swedish Academy. These statutes defined literature as "not only belles-lettres, but also other writings which, by virtue of their form and style, possess literary value". At the same time, the restriction to works presented "during the preceding year" was softened: "older works" could be considered "if their significance has not become apparent until recently". It was also stated that candidates must be nominated in writing by those entitled to do so before 1 February each year.

According to this official Nobel site (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/themes/literature/espmark/) there is an aspect that the candidate should have bestowed "the greatest benefit on mankind" – and the special condition for literature, "in an ideal direction".

I think Dylan's role during civil rights era when his songs were inspirational and oriented to bring about a change for the benefit of mankind.

His selection is perfectly in line with the original intention.

A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall

Oh, where have you been, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, where have you been, my darling young one?
I've stumbled on the side of twelve misty mountains
I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways
I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests
I've been out in front of a dozen dead oceans
I've been ten thousand miles in the mouth of a graveyard
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, and it's a hard
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall

Oh, what did you see, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what did you see, my darling young one?
I saw a newborn baby with wild wolves all around it
I saw a highway of diamonds with nobody on it
I saw a black branch with blood that kept drippin'
I saw a room full of men with their hammers a-bleedin'
I saw a white ladder all covered with water
I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken
I saw guns and sharp swords in the hands of young children
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall

And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
And what did you hear, my darling young one?
I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin'
Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world
Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin'
Heard ten thousand whisperin' and nobody listenin'
Heard one person starve, I heard many people laughin'
Heard the song of a poet who died in the gutter
Heard the sound of a clown who cried in the alley
And it's a hard, and it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard
And it's a hard rain's a-gonna fall

Oh, who did you meet, my blue-eyed son?
Who did you meet, my darling young one?
I met a young child beside a dead pony
I met a white man who walked a black dog
I met a young woman whose body was burning
I met a young girl, she gave me a rainbow
I met one man who was wounded in love
I met another man who was wounded with hatred
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall

Oh, what'll you do now, my blue-eyed son?
Oh, what'll you do now, my darling young one?
I'm a-goin' back out 'fore the rain starts a-fallin'
I'll walk to the depths of the deepest black forest
Where the people are many and their hands are all empty
Where the pellets of poison are flooding their waters
Where the home in the valley meets the damp dirty prison
Where the executioner's face is always well hidden
Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten
Where black is the color, where none is the number
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it
Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinkin'
But I'll know my song well before I start singin'
And it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard, it's a hard
It's a hard rain's a-gonna fall

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2016, 01:45:37 PM
According to this official Nobel site (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/themes/literature/espmark/) there is an aspect that the candidate should have bestowed "the greatest benefit on mankind" – and the special condition for literature, "in an ideal direction".

I think Dylan's role during civil rights era when his songs were inspirational and oriented to bring about a change for the benefit of mankind.

His selection is perfectly in line with the original intention.

You might just as easily give the award posthumously, and more justifiably, to Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger or a number of others then, who did more and wrote more for civil rights and social issues than Dylan did beyond a handful of songs on his early albums - and with greater commitment and sincerity than Dylan who was at best politically naive and lukewarm at heart, but coming from a folksinger tradition where political stance was an integral part of the tradition and the music, and because a couple of his early girlfriends were much more politically active and educated than he, and pushed him more towards it than he would otherwise have wanted.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2016, 01:38:25 PM
Huh?

Money as incentive? Puzzling.

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 14, 2016, 02:22:05 PM
You might just as easily give the award posthumously, and more justifiably, to Woody Guthrie or Pete Seeger or a number of others then, who did more and wrote more for civil rights and social issues than Dylan did beyond a handful of songs on his early albums - and with greater commitment and sincerity than Dylan who was at best politically naive and lukewarm at heart, but coming from a folksinger tradition where political stance was an integral part of the tradition and the music, and because a couple of his early girlfriends were much more politically active and educated than he, and pushed him more towards it than he would otherwise have wanted.

Aside from the aspects of idealism and benefit to mankind, the primary quality has also been the literary quality of the body of work.  Woody Guthrie, as great as he was, never approached this kind of writing:

It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece the hollow horn
Plays wasted words, proves to warn
That he not busy being born is busy dying

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover that you'd just be one more
Person crying

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Make everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much is really sacred

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have to stand naked

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it

Advertising signs they con
You into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks they really found you

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit
To satisfy, insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not forget
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something they invest in

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes must get lonely

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed
Graveyards, false gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough, what else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 14, 2016, 02:22:05 PM
You might just as easily give the award posthumously, and more justifiably

No. Nobel prizes are not awarded posthumously.

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 02:42:15 PM
No. Nobel prizes are not awarded posthumously.

I know that, I was just sayin'

And as a Dylan fan I know there will be many lyrics that can read well on the page, but also know there is perhaps a far greater number where as important or more important information is being conveyed through the instrumental accompaniment. Right at this second I'm listening to "Buckets Of Rain", which is a great song, but its the instrumental writing that is doing the heavy lifting in conveying the emotional narrative of the song and elevating what would otherwise be quite simplistic lyrics.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 14, 2016, 01:21:32 PMThe next step will be to give it to a film director. But almost all the great film directors are dead.

I am sure that for some people Woody Allen would qualify, since most of the information in his films is conveyed through dialogue that is completely written down and rarely improvised by the actors. And he also has the generational appeal, in addition to still being enormously admired in Europe.

The academic papers on Chemistry, Physics, Economics and Medicine that won those recipients those awards are also "written down", yet considered distinct from "Literature" as an award category.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on October 14, 2016, 01:21:32 PM
If they wanted to award a songwriter, I think Leonard Cohen might have been a better choice. He was actually a poet and novelist before he even ventured into music. (Note: I haven't read his literary works, and have no idea how good they are.)

The (two) books are so-so, the poetry I find (mostly) great. A sample of one of my favourites:

I can't make the hills
the system is shot
I'm living on pills
for which I thank G-d
I followed the course
from chaos to art
desire the horse
depression the cart

Cohen would indeed be a fine choice, although his cultural impact is nowhere near Dylan's, obviously.

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 14, 2016, 04:01:23 PM
The academic papers on Chemistry, Physics, Economics and Medicine that won those recipients those awards are also "written down", yet considered distinct from "Literature" as an award category.

Maybe the opening tune to The Big Bang Theory should be considered for a prize in physics.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/clintons.jpg)

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2016, 12:22:19 PM
Oh, which prize do you mean?

Pulitzer.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2016, 12:26:25 PM
A Book!

[asin]1451648766[/asin]

;)

Oddly enough, I can´t remember the last time when one of the Dylan enthusiasts here posted about it in the "What are you currently reading?" thread, here or on the old GMG.

Quote from: Florestan on October 15, 2016, 12:15:30 AM
Pulitzer.

I hope you realize that it's a national prize, and that it a awards not only journalism, but also literature and musical composition.

Quote from: Florestan on October 15, 2016, 12:23:24 AM
Oddly enough, I can´t remember the last time when one of the Dylan enthusiasts here posted about it in the "What are you currently reading?" thread, here or on the old GMG.

Well they prefer his audiobooks ;)

Quote from: North Star on October 15, 2016, 12:33:44 AM
I hope you realize that it's a national prize, and that it a awards not only journalism, but also literature and musical composition.

Exactly. Pulitzer and Dylan are a match made in heaven.

Quote
Well they prefer his audiobooks ;)

;D

I know I'm fighting a lost battle here, but this prize for me represents yet more proof of the irruption of the "Podemos" way of thinking into the cultural establishment, the equation of "popular" (and let us not fool ourselves, "mass") products with "high art".

Les Miz is now the equal of Wozzeck, Prince stands on an equal footing with Elliott Carter, and Bob Dylan is as much a poet as John Ashbery. And I am not referring to the intrinsic values (or lack thereof) of Mr. Dylan's output.

O tempora, o mores...

Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2016, 01:05:53 AM
I know I'm fighting a lost battle here, but this prize fo me represents yet more proof of the irruption of the "Podemos" way of thinking into the cultural establishment, the equation of "popular" (and let us not fool ourselves, "mass") products with "high art".

O tempora, o mores...

Excellently put, Rafael! Indeed.

Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2016, 01:05:53 AM
I know I'm fighting a lost battle here, but this prize fo me represents yet more proof of the irruption of the "Podemos" way of thinking into the cultural establishment, the equation of "popular" (and let us not fool ourselves, "mass") products with "high art".

Les Miz is now the equal of Wozzeck, Prince stands on an equal footing as Elliott Carter, and Bob Dylan is as much a poet as John Ashberry. And I am not referring to the intrinsic values (or lack thereof) of Mr. Dylan's output.

O tempora, o mores...

It was always so. Beethoven wrote much of his music (with some few exceptions) for at most 1500 well off citizens and aristocrats of Vienna, and Monteverdi for an even smaller audience in Florence. Today we hoi polloi enjoy it and discuss it on the web. Doubtless the original audience for this music would look upon us with horror and wonder how the great had fallen in disgrace. Popularity isn't disgraceful in and of itself.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2016, 01:45:37 PM
According to this official Nobel site (http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/themes/literature/espmark/) there is an aspect that the candidate should have bestowed "the greatest benefit on mankind" – and the special condition for literature, "in an ideal direction".

I think Dylan's role during civil rights era when his songs were inspirational and oriented to bring about a change for the benefit of mankind.

His selection is perfectly in line with the original intention.

Good point.  Maybe the Swedish definition of "literature" would include lyrics.  Any Swedes out there who can enlighten us?

Without wishing to seem to denigrate the musical part of the equation, Dylan has always seemed to me a prima le parole kind of dude;  so partly for that reason, the prize does not seem to me any kind of malfeasance.

Quote from: arpeggio on October 15, 2016, 04:52:39 AM
Good point.  Maybe the Swedish definition of "literature" would include lyrics.  Any Swedes out there who can enlighten us?

Lyric poetry is literature in any reasonable definition of the words.

Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2016, 01:05:53 AM
I know I'm fighting a lost battle here, but this prize for me represents yet more proof of the irruption of the "Podemos" way of thinking into the cultural establishment, the equation of "popular" (and let us not fool ourselves, "mass") products with "high art".

Les Miz is now the equal of Wozzeck, Prince stands on an equal footing with Elliott Carter, and Bob Dylan is as much a poet as John Ashbery. And I am not referring to the intrinsic values (or lack thereof) of Mr. Dylan's output.

O tempora, o mores...

That's been happening for awhile now. The committee's choice seems like a political move more than all else, especially considering the current US political situation. I mean this is all they could come up with within the world of literature? An American 1960s counterculture figure who's been irrelevant for about 35-40 years now. He still performs too, but it's a parody of himself, totally unintelligible.

Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2016, 01:05:53 AM
I know I'm fighting a lost battle here, but this prize for me represents yet more proof of the irruption of the "Podemos" way of thinking into the cultural establishment, the equation of "popular" (and let us not fool ourselves, "mass") products with "high art".

Les Miz is now the equal of Wozzeck, Prince stands on an equal footing with Elliott Carter, and Bob Dylan is as much a poet as John Ashbery. And I am not referring to the intrinsic values (or lack thereof) of Mr. Dylan's output.

O tempora, o mores...

There are worse things than being on the right side of a losing battle.

My take on it is he never really grew out of counter-culture.
That to me is a weakness.

Quote from: Florestan on October 15, 2016, 12:23:24 AM
Oddly enough, I can´t remember the last time when one of the Dylan enthusiasts here posted about it in the "What are you currently reading?" thread, here or on the old GMG.

That's not odd.  I have the earlier edition (up to 1985) and read from it just today.  It may be hard to believe but I and I am sure most do not post every book they read.

;)

Quote from: ritter on October 15, 2016, 01:05:53 AM
I know I'm fighting a lost battle here, but this prize for me represents yet more proof of the irruption of the "Podemos" way of thinking into the cultural establishment, the equation of "popular" (and let us not fool ourselves, "mass") products with "high art".

Les Miz is now the equal of Wozzeck, Prince stands on an equal footing with Elliott Carter, and Bob Dylan is as much a poet as John Ashbery. And I am not referring to the intrinsic values (or lack thereof) of Mr. Dylan's output.

O tempora, o mores...

You are fighting a losing battle with me, since Bob Dylan's work is more important to me than anything written by John Ashbery (not to pick on him since I could substitute the names of many other living poets - and lest you think I don't know the work of many living poets, ask my wife about the bookcase full of books she wants wonders why I have).   ???

However, I would not equate just any popular artist, e.g. Prince, with someone of the talent of Bob Dylan, or Stephen King with William Faulkner (another winner).  For me, Bob Dylan is unique among popular musicians.  He has been very successful and has written songs, mainly because of the lyrics at a very high artistic level. And I would go on to say that his has been an important and meaningful voice for generations of people, throughout the world. 

Take heart: It is this year's prize, next year's selection will be different author, one you may like and, chances are, someone I've never heard of.

;)

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on October 15, 2016, 09:04:45 AM
My take on it is he never really grew out of counter-culture.
That to me is a weakness.

May well be.

Of course, some world-class artists do possess weaknesses. Wagner and Boulez spring to mind.

Quote from: James on October 15, 2016, 06:45:55 AM
He still performs too, but it's a parody of himself, totally unintelligible.

Exquisite irony.

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on October 15, 2016, 09:04:45 AM
My take on it is he never really grew out of counter-culture.
That to me is a weakness.

Bob Dylan's late career has been nothing short of remarkable.  I wrote an article about it earlier this year - he has done much more than continue touring and releasing albums.  Growth is exactly what he has done.

bob-dylans-amazing-multimedia-late-career-work (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/bob-dylans-amazing-multimedia-late-career-work/)

^That's a really good overview of his later career. Thanks for sharing it.

Quote from: James on October 15, 2016, 06:45:55 AM
He still performs too, but it's a parody of himself, totally unintelligible.

fwiw: I saw him live here two years ago and it was a superb show, a carefully chosen standard setlist he'd been polishing with his band over the last year or so, heavy on the later material, especially from the recent Tempest. Even the people who hadn't purchased one of his albums since the seventies and wanted just an oldies greatest hits show ended up being knocked out - especially, I noted at the time, by "Forgetful Heart", and also by a pounding "Early Roman Kings" and the perfect concert closer "Long And Wasted Years". Admittedly it helped that he was in much better voice than he was when he recorded Tempest, which was a bit of a shock even for someone who knows his work well.

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 15, 2016, 06:39:58 PM
^That's a really good overview of his later career. Thanks for sharing it.

fwiw: I saw him live here two years ago and it was a superb show, a carefully chosen standard setlist he'd been polishing with his band over the last year or so, heavy on the later material, especially from the recent Tempest. Even the people who hadn't purchased one of his albums since the seventies and wanted a greatest hits show ended up being knocked out - especially, I noted at the time, by "Forgetful Heart".

Thanks.   ;)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 15, 2016, 05:48:35 PM
May well be. Of course, some world-class artists do possess weaknesses. Wagner and Boulez spring to mind.

I didn't mean that. I meant the message. I could be wrong though, as I don't know all his works.

Quote from: zamyrabyrd on October 15, 2016, 09:04:45 AM
My take on it is he never really grew out of counter-culture.
That to me is a weakness.

What? He hated the "counter-culture", rightly or wrongly,  and actively tried to distance himself from it in all sorts of ways.

Far from "never growing out of it", his post-sixties work shows no evidence of it at all.

All your post tells me is that you're largely unfamiliar with his work.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 15, 2016, 05:48:35 PM
Of course, some world-class artists do possess weaknesses. Wagner and Boulez spring to mind.

interestingly enough, Karl, it's two great musicians that sprang to mind, not two great writers. Nobody denied, though, --- not I, at least ---, that Bob Dylan belongs to the former group; it's to placing him in the latter that objections have been raised.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 15, 2016, 06:24:52 PM
Bob Dylan's late career has been nothing short of remarkable.  I wrote an article about it earlier this year - he has done much more than continue touring and releasing albums.  Growth is exactly what he has done.

bob-dylans-amazing-multimedia-late-career-work (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/bob-dylans-amazing-multimedia-late-career-work/)

In your own words:

Quote from: sanantonio
The original Dylanological sin is to focus too much on the words, and too little on the sound: to treat Dylan like he's a poet, a writer of verse, when of course he's a musician—a songwriter and, supremely, a singer.

Looks like the members of the Nobel literary committee need urgent and sincere repentance for their sins

Quote from: Florestan on October 16, 2016, 01:35:42 AM
interestingly enough, Karl, it's two great musicians that sprang to mind, not two great writers.

Well, I am a musician, so musicians sprang to mind.  (That is my guess.)

Quote from: Florestan on October 16, 2016, 02:06:43 AM
In your own words:

Looks like the members of the Nobel literary committee need urgent and sincere repentance for their sins

First of all, thanks for reading the article.   ;)

Secondly, yes, his words have been what most people have considered remarkable, because, well they are.  His skills as a musician and especially his singing have often been denigrated - unfairly in my opinion.  If more people knew the depth and breadth of his knowledge of all kinds of music, but especially roots music, I think they would be surprised.  His over 300 hours of radio programming would be good place a start.  Reading his autobiography was an eye-opening experience.  His prose writing was surprisingly good, but then there were the passages when he described his enjoyment of listening to jazz in the Village; Monk, and others.

But if I had to say why he was chosen as this year's Nobel Laureate for Literature - it would be for the body of work: great lyrics set to well delivered roots music.  Dylan is very unique artist, easy to dismiss from a superficial exposure, but if you were to ever study his work with any kind of commitment you will quickly learn how unique his is, and why this prize makes sense.

;)

Quote from: sanantonio on October 16, 2016, 02:53:18 AM
First of all, thanks for reading the article.   ;)

It was my pleasure. As I told you before, I like your reviews more than those of many a professional critics.

I'm a 'class of 56' boomer and, not being American, have never listened to a Dylan song. For the life of me, I couln't even name one of his songs. Except - I realized this week, "Lay, Lady Lay", which my older brother used to like inordinately. But I remember the tune only, none of the lyrics. At age 12  (1968) I was into classics and never listened to pop or rock music.

Over the decades I have come to understand - through the grapevine almost - that Dylan was a lasting influence on the american folk/ballad genre and a major contributor to modern day popular (as in: "for the people, by the people and of the people") thinking. 3 years ago (that was in 2013), a colleague of mine pointed my attention to the work of Leonard Cohen (his songs of course, by which he meant mostly the lyrics). Cohen is a Canadian and, I learned then, a fellow Montrealer. Never heard his name before. He is considered a major artist and I now understand why.

When it comes to literature, some consider only what can be read. When the Greeks or the Romans wrote their plays or poetry, it was not so. Theatre was meant to be seen (even if in very static acting) and heard. Shakespeare's or Molière's works were meant to be presented in that way too. Reading a play, a comedy, a tragedy, really ?  ??? And yet, poets and playwrights have received the Nobel Prize.

In France and throughout francophony, poetry reading evenings are frequent and well attended. This is literature, but it is not read. It's all about the power of words. Whether they come to the brain through the eyes, the fingers (for Braille readers), the ears or a combination of these means, what is the difference ?

If the words are enhanced by any kind of musical means, so be it. As long as both (words and music) are from the same pen, then I consider the result to be both literature and music. Why should there be a caesure between the two arts ? Come to think of it, had the Nobel Literature Prize been awarded in the 1870s, maybe Richard Wagner would have received it ? So, who do you think has contributed the most to literature : Bob Dylan or Richard Wagner ?

OK, that was just a joke, no need to jump barricades  ;). The point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?




Truth to te

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 12:37:39 PMWhen it comes to literature, some consider only what can be read. When the Greeks or the Romans wrote their plays or poetry, it was not so. Theatre was meant to be seen (even if in very static acting) and heard. Shakespeare's or Molière's works were meant to be presented in that way too. Reading a play, a comedy, a tragedy, really ?  ??? And yet, poets and playwrights have received the Nobel Prize.

Not to mention that the great epics, and lyric poetry, of Ancient Greece and other regions were born out of an oral tradition from the prehistoric era.

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 12:37:39 PM
. The point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?

^ But you're not considering or replying to the counter-arguments to that that have been made upthread. Here's a couple of mine I'd be interested in your take on (or those who share that view):

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 14, 2016, 02:57:49 PM

And as a Dylan fan I know there will be many lyrics that can read well on the page, but also know there is perhaps a far greater number where as important or more important information is being conveyed through the instrumental accompaniment. Right at this second I'm listening to "Buckets Of Rain", which is a great song, but its the instrumental writing that is doing the heavy lifting in conveying the emotional narrative of the song and elevating what would otherwise be quite simplistic lyrics.

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 14, 2016, 04:01:23 PM
The academic papers on Chemistry, Physics, Economics and Medicine that won those recipients those awards are also "written down", yet considered distinct from "Literature" as an award category.

Or to put it another way: would you still say  Wilhelm Müller's Die schöne Müllerin poems were masterpieces without Schubert's music? Does a great song setting automatically equate to great/timeless  literature ?

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 12:37:39 PM
I'm a 'class of 56' boomer...The point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?

Bravo, André.

Sarge

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 16, 2016, 12:50:47 PM
^ But you're not considering or replying to the counter-arguments to that that have been made upthread. Here's a couple of mine I'd be interested in your take on (or those who share that view):

QuoteQuote from: SimonNZ on 15 October 2016, 01:57:49

And as a Dylan fan I know there will be many lyrics that can read well on the page, but also know there is perhaps a far greater number where as important or more important information is being conveyed through the instrumental accompaniment. Right at this second I'm listening to "Buckets Of Rain", which is a great song, but its the instrumental writing that is doing the heavy lifting in conveying the emotional narrative of the song and elevating what would otherwise be quite simplistic lyrics.

Quote from: SimonNZ on 15 October 2016, 03:01:23
The academic papers on Chemistry, Physics, Economics and Medicine that won those recipients those awards are also "written down", yet considered distinct from "Literature" as an award category.

Or to put it another way: would you still say  Wilhelm Müller's Die schöne Müllerin poems were masterpieces without Schubert's music? Does a great song setting automatically equate to great/timeless  literature ?

That's not quite the same thing, as Dylan both wrote and performed his work entirely himself (and with his band). Obviously the two can enhance each other (or not..). Similarly a great actor can bring a line from a play or a poem, or whatever, alive. And, as André said, some literature is clearly meant to be performed, so I don't know if it's all that problematic that the words are enhanced by what is essentially a reading of them.

Also, many of the things that define how Dylan sings his music (rhythm, pauses, etc) are always present in written poetry. Poetry isn't all that far removed from music, even if there's no tune attached to it. And if the works of lets say Frost or Yeats appeared originally as audio books (there are recordings of their readings), would that make them any less literary artists?

And I doubt that nobody was saying that all information passed down in written form should be considered for the Nobel Lit prize. But if it's a work of art that is created in a form of literary art such as the ballad, it's a rather different proposition than judging the literary merits of a scientific paper.

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 12:37:39 PMThe point is that literature is about words. If the written words are meant to be communicated through music, or through scenery and spoken parts (plays), what is the problem ?

+1

Well, fundamentally the objections all boil down to this: He's not a great poet. He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

Quote from: Ken B on October 16, 2016, 03:32:38 PM
Well, fundamentally the objections all boil down to this: He's not a great poet. He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

No, I think there are many facets of the discussion that don't boil down to just that. I don't mean or want to be sounding over-agressive or like this is life-or-death, but I do think music and literature can be defined as seperate art forms, however much a Venn diagram could show them having an area of overlap, however much Dylan may well be one of the most "literary" and "poetical" of songwriters, and am interested in exploring this distinction

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 16, 2016, 03:50:44 PM
No, I think there are many facets of the discussion that don't boil down to just that. I don't mean or want to be sounding over-agressive or like this is life-or-death, but I do think music and literature can be defined as seperate art forms, however much a Venn diagram could show them having an area of overlap, however much Dylan may well be one of the most "literary" and "poetical" of songwriters, and am interested in exploring this distinction

The people objecting to or mocking his award -- I'm a mocker myself -- all do so because we dont thinks he's a great poet. (And we're not the only ones actually, it's not the alleged greatness of his poetry that even the award's fanboys point to, it's something else.) If we all thought he was a great poet there wouldn't be much debate.

Literature is a very sophisticated way to communicate. Before the written word, there was the Word (and I'm not referring to John I here  :D).

The "word" was meant to transmit signals, commands, stories, emotions.  In a sense (a very primary one) there should not be any need for further elavoration on the subject.

Now, what is the "word" doing in literature ? Well, it's the same as if one is asking "what is God doing in religion ? Literature is ALL about words, non ?

Is one to cut, eliminate, dispossess, eviscerate literature simply because said "word" appears in a different form from that which western, proustian-joycian literary critics and teachers have formed our collective opinion ?

Literature is communication. Means of communication have evolved much since the baldy, coruscative works of Rabelais and Shakespeare to the prude, uncommunicative works of Jane Austen (some 300 years later - come to tink of it, almost unbelievable...) to, well... the modern literature.

I do no judge Dylan's work. Not at all. I am simply not equipped to do so. I'm a man of my age and culture, trapped into a different literary and sound world from an early age. But I have developed a culture that over decades has enabled me to differentiate the fake and the modish from the authentic and potentially sustainable. Something that will be taught in high schools and universities in the coming decades.

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 12:37:39 PM
Reading a play, a comedy, a tragedy, really ?  ???

Yes, really. Have you never read any Shakespeare or Moliere or Ibsen? Have you never read Goethe´s Faust?

What you basically suggest is that, short of living in an area where theater venues are available, one should not really try to get himself acquainted with plays, ´cause they have to be seen and heard, not read.

Quotewho do you think has contributed the most to literature : Bob Dylan or Richard Wagner ?

Neither. You know, literary greatness is measured not only by the intrinsic worth of an author´s entire oeuvre, but also by the influence it exerts on subsequent generations of authors. Great writers such as Dante, Cervantes, Shakespeare, Goethe, Tolstoy, Dostoievsky, Proust, Joyce, you name one of your choice --- they all hugely influenced the literature that came after them. Please show me one writer who counts Bob Dylan among his major literary influences. I´m not saying there isn´t any, I just ask for a name.

Quote from: North Star on October 16, 2016, 12:44:04 PM
Not to mention that the great epics, and lyric poetry, of Ancient Greece and other regions were born out of an oral tradition from the prehistoric era.

Yes but it´s only after they have been written down that they began to be widely circulated and appreciated outside their original culture. Had they continued to be known exclusively by being recited, neither The Iliad nor The Odissey would have had any major impact on European literature, let alone acquired their cult status.

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 05:23:08 PM
the prude, uncommunicative works of Jane Austen

Just because you don´t get, or don´t approve of, their ideas doesn´t mean they are uncommunicative. Just saying.

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 05:23:08 PM
the prude, uncommunicative works of Jane Austen

Sez you! No influence on culture or generations of writers, so why bother to translate her works into more than 40 languages?

Quote from: André on October 16, 2016, 05:23:08 PM
...Something that will be taught in high schools and universities in the coming decades.

Looks like Austen got a head start.

Quote from: Ken B on October 16, 2016, 03:32:38 PMHe might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

I'm sure he's an interesting guy .. but his musicianship is questionable too. I don't hear much progress in terms of his playing or singing. It's gotten a lot worse. Especially live, minus any recording production value .. he's largely incoherent as a vocalist .. all the musicians he hires can't save him. I don't care what anyone says.

"uncommunicative" was definitely a bad choice of word. I should have written restrained instead.  :-[

Quote from: André on October 17, 2016, 07:52:16 AM
"uncommunicative" was definitely a bad choice of word. I should have written restrained instead.  :-[

Nothing wrong with restraint or discipline.

Verily.

Quote from: Ken B on October 16, 2016, 03:32:38 PM
Well, fundamentally the objections all boil down to this: He's not a great poet. He might be a great singer, a great composer, a great guy, or a great lay, but if he's not a great poet he shouldn't have got the award.

Except that being a poet is not the criteria the Nobel prize committee uses.  The rules stipulate that work to be considered need not be "belles lettres" these statutes defined literature as "not only belles-lettres, but also other writings which, by virtue of their form and style, possess literary value".

Bob Dylan's writing qualifies.  Get over it.

;)

Quote from: sanantonio on October 18, 2016, 04:06:45 PM
Except that being a poet is not the criteria the Nobel prize committee uses.  The rules stipulate that work to be considered need not be "belles lettres" these statutes defined literature as "not only belles-lettres, but also other writings which, by virtue of their form and style, possess literary value".

Bob Dylan's writing qualifies.  Get over it.

;)

Well, unless you think he won for his prose, it's his lyrics he won for. So yes, he won for his poetry.

An award I will happily concede as deserved as that for the cancer cure in the twenties  ;)

Quote from: Ken B on October 18, 2016, 06:05:04 PM
Well, unless you think he won for his prose, it's his lyrics he won for. So yes, he won for his poetry.

An award I will happily concede as deserved as that for the cancer cure in the twenties  ;)

Song lyrics are not poetry.  But song lyrics can have literary merit, e.g. Bob Dylan's.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2016, 12:09:19 PM
Go ahead and be bitter, those that are. I don't care. I grew up in that era, and you can well believe that all those brilliant, totally obscure and nearly unreadable poets and novelists which you are lamenting as passed over, didn't have an ounce of influence over the world that Dylan has had. And if the songs you listen to are not poetry, you ain't listening to the right songs.

8)

+1!

Quote from: sanantonio on October 18, 2016, 04:06:45 PM
...Bob Dylan's writing qualifies.  Get over it.

+1

Please, Mrs Henry, there's only so much I can do;
Why don't you look my way, and pump me a few?

Quote from: sanantonio on October 18, 2016, 06:29:19 PM
Song lyrics are not poetry....

I challenge that.  The Psalms are lyrics. :)

I will say this. He has so far behaved as a classy winner. His book blurb has changed to note the prize, but other than that, nothing. That to me is class.

Quote from: Ken B on October 20, 2016, 01:12:25 PM
I will say this. He has so far behaved as a classy winner. His book blurb has changed to note the prize, but other than that, nothing. That to me is class.

Has he contacted the Nobel committee yet? Last I heard, he wasn't returning their calls  ;D

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 20, 2016, 01:14:04 PM
Has he contacted the Nobel committee yet? Last I heard, he wasn't returning their calls  ;D

Sarge

hope he pulls a Brando "I'll accept mine when Obama returns his"

Quote from: snyprrr on October 20, 2016, 03:56:30 PM
hope he pulls a Brando "I'll accept mine when Obama returns his"

When did Brando say anything like this? And why would Dylan be anti-Obama?

Quote from: SimonNZ on October 20, 2016, 04:52:52 PM
When did Brando say anything like this? And why would Dylan be anti-Obama?

Brando didn't, as far as I know. Certainly not in his refusal speech, where he instead denounced something he thought was a travesty. But snyprrr expressed a hope, which is not a belief. He hopes Dylan would use his platform to denounce what snyprrr sees as a travesty. That has precisely nothing to do with snyprrr believing or asserting Dylan is "anti-Obama." I for one hope Dylan devotes his speech to denouncing Ben Affleck's directing, but don't expect it or predict it.

Quote from: Ken B on October 20, 2016, 01:12:25 PM
I will say this. He has so far behaved as a classy winner. His book blurb has changed to note the prize, but other than that, nothing. That to me is class.

..and it probably wasn't even his idea, because it is gone again.

Quote from: The GuardianThe simple words "winner of the Nobel prize in literature", which appeared on the page for The Lyrics: 1961-2012, have now been removed. Bob Dylan, Nobel laureate, is once again plain Bob Dylan.

That single sentence was the sole public recognition Dylan had given to the prestigious award, announced last week in Stockholm. According to Sara Danius, the Nobel academy's permanent secretary, attempts had been made to contact Dylan about the award via close associates of his, but he had kept silent.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/21/bob-dylan-unacknowledges-nobel-prize-literature-win-removed-website

 8)

Quote from: Francois de La RochefoucauldA refusal of praise is a desire to be praised twice

Quote from: North Star on October 21, 2016, 06:43:25 AM
8)

Nice quote. Certainly fits Brando, who was mentioned here, but Dylan has refused nothing so far as I can tell. Except a victory lap.

Why would he refuse the prize?

Quote from: sanantonio on October 21, 2016, 08:42:35 AM
Why would he refuse the prize?

A nice, slow, fat one. Right across the plate. Just hanging there. 

;)

Hah, Cohen himself had something to say about Dylan's award:

Quote from: Leonard Cohen"To me," he said, "it's like pinning a medal on Mount Everest for being the highest mountain."

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/oct/14/leonard-cohen-giving-nobel-to-bob-dylan-like-pinning-medal-on-everest

QuoteBob Dylan: "If I accept the prize? Of course."

On 13 October, 2016, the Swedish Academy announced that this year's Nobel Prize in Literature is awarded to Bob Dylan "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition".

This week Bob Dylan called the Swedish Academy. "The news about the Nobel Prize left me speechless", he told Sara Danius, Permanent Secretary of the Swedish Academy. "I appreciate the honor so much."

It has not yet been decided if Bob Dylan will attend any events during the Nobel Week in Stockholm in December. The Nobel Foundation will share information as soon as it is available.

http://www.nobelprize.org/press/#/publication/5813bb6c3f5fa7030006bb32/552bd85dccc8e20c00e7f979?

Breaking News Nobel Wins Dylan Prize for Literature................

Bob showed up to just in time to claim the cash.

I love the smell of vindication in the morning! It smells like victory.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/bob-dylan-accused-of-plagiarizing-nobel-talk-from-sparknotes-w487945 (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/bob-dylan-accused-of-plagiarizing-nobel-talk-from-sparknotes-w487945)

And yet, it's his best work in decades.

"Yet"?

Quote from: San Antone on October 13, 2016, 01:26:26 PMWhy Bob Dylan Deserves His Nobel Prize (http://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/why-bob-dylan-deserves-his-nobel-prize-w444799)
According to the Swedish Academy, Dylan won "for having created new poetic expressions within the great American song tradition"

I have yet to read the article, but my thought (prompted by today's Last Movie You Watched activity) was that Dylan and John Lennon both flourished in infusing pop music (also, in Dylan's case country/folk music) with artfully casual surrealism. It makes (at the very least) a nice change from the wealth of baldly insipid pop lyrics. Also, that by and large, arguably Dylan earns the prize better by his literary than by his musical work.

Yeah, I read this the other night. I can't remember whether I read it all at the time, I know I read at least some. But that was back in the days when you couldn't unfollow a thread once you'd posted in it...

Frankly I barely know Dylan's work. But I'm on the side of supporting the legitimacy of a literature prize for songwriting on principle. The words matter in really fine songwriting (and this goes for all the Lieder and art song just as much as it does in pop music, though in most cases the 'classical' songwriters of the 19th-20th centuries utilised existing poetry. And the art of writing with the intention that the words be sung is a very specific art - not dissimilar to poets who intend their work to be spoken aloud rather than merely read, and with some relationship to playwrights, but it's own distinct thing. As soon as you extend "literature" beyond the confines of words that are only designed to be printed and read silently, songwriting absolutely counts.

And good songwriting can hit like you wouldn't believe. Again, I barely know Dylan, but writers like Joni Mitchell and Taylor Swift can absolutely whack me between the eyes with a turn of phrase. Other favourites of mine like Tori Amos and Paul Dempsey evoke all sorts of feelings with their surreal combinations. And Patty Griffin just makes everything in the human condition ache. It's an artform that often demands a ruthless efficiency, getting an idea across in a matter of seconds. And that is absolutely a skill.

Quote from: Madiel on Today at 03:45:21 AMYeah, I read this the other night. I can't remember whether I read it all at the time, I know I read at least some. But that was back in the days when you couldn't unfollow a thread once you'd posted in it...

Frankly I barely know Dylan's work. But I'm on the side of supporting the legitimacy of a literature prize for songwriting on principle. The words matter in really fine songwriting (and this goes for all the Lieder and art song just as much as it does in pop music, though in most cases the 'classical' songwriters of the 19th-20th centuries utilised existing poetry. And the art of writing with the intention that the words be sung is a very specific art - not dissimilar to poets who intend their work to be spoken aloud rather than merely read, and with some relationship to playwrights, but it's own distinct thing. As soon as you extend "literature" beyond the confines of words that are only designed to be printed and read silently, songwriting absolutely counts.

And good songwriting can hit like you wouldn't believe. Again, I barely know Dylan, but writers like Joni Mitchell and Taylor Swift can absolutely whack me between the eyes with a turn of phrase. Other favourites of mine like Tori Amos and Paul Dempsey evoke all sorts of feelings with their surreal combinations. And Patty Griffin just makes everything in the human condition ache. It's an artform that often demands a ruthless efficiency, getting an idea across in a matter of seconds. And that is absolutely a skill.

And that's exactly what's puzzling: "I don't really know or understand much about a particular poet's or musician's work", yet I still feel compelled to voice my opinion.

Quote from: AnotherSpin on Today at 10:39:37 AMAnd that's exactly what's puzzling: "I don't really know or understand much about a particular poet's or musician's work", yet I still feel compelled to voice my opinion.

Well clearly you didn't read the rest of my post, because my stance is on ANY songwriter's capacity to win the Nobel. I can't help it if you're unable to think at one higher level of abstraction, but much of the discussion has been about whether or not a songwriter should win, not about whether a songwriter other than Bob Dylan would be a better choice.

And so my opinion is in support of a songwriter winning, not about whether or not Bob Dylan was specifically the right songwriter to win.