I am interested to know what you think of the use of tape, or some kind of electroacoustic track (as opposed to live electronics), in compositions. I don't know a huge amount of repertoire, so firstly some recommendations of things to check out would probably be a good place to start for me........
What I have heard/seen has varied quite a lot. In some cases the track really doesn't add much to the music apart from something simple like 'background rain sounds.' Other times a composer uses the electroacoustic track to create interludes between largely instrumental sections of music. The most interesting usage that I have come across is where the electroacoustic track is closely incorporated within the texture of the live instrumental parts, however, I do wonder where the line is drawn between this and the suitability of live electronics.
What do you think?
No doubt you already know Rautavaara´s Cantus Arcticus, and there´s Xenakis´ Kraanerg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraanerg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnOETgKzOPM, for example.
http://www.americancomposers.org/orchestratech/oteri_list.htm
has a surprisingly comprehensive, interesting list of such works by (mostly) American composers.
Murail´s great "L´Esprit des Dunes" probably doesn´t qualify due to the means implied, but it´s surely a fine work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg9KjVNWSPA
Milton Babbitt - Reflections
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d01fwczBHp0
Milton Babbitt – Correspondences for string orchestra & synthesized tape
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF-l2OFHs5I
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 19, 2017, 10:55:10 PM
Varese's blatantly obvious Deserts? :P
And pretty much every spectral or pseudo-spectral piece nowadays I see seems to incorporate it one way or another..... ;)
Deserts is one piece really early on in the history of this and I feel that it really shows its age
Long before digital wizardry....
Roberto Gerhard : symphony nr. 3 "Collages" (1960) - a master-orchestrator.
https://www.youtube.com/v/CwGJvFv1z4s
The Third Symphony was commissioned by the Koussevitzky Foundation and dedicated to the memory of Serge and Natalie Koussevitzky. It received its first performance on 8 February 1961 at the Royal Festival Hall by the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Rudolph Schwartz. The BBC SO also recorded the work for EMI with the conductor Frederik Prausnitz on a long-deleted LP (ASD 2427). The work is scored for 2 flutes (doubling piccolos), piccolo, 3 oboes (3rd doubling cor anglais), 3 clarinets in A (3rd doubling bass clarinet), 2 bassoons, double bassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets in C, 2 trombones, bass trombone, tuba, timpani, harp, piano, electronic tape, strings and an enormous percussion section: large suspended cymbal, 3 tomtoms (large, medium, small), large antique cymbal, maracas, side drum, wood blocks (large and small) (player one); tam tam, bass drum (player two); xylo-rimba, glockenspiel (player three); vibraphone (player four); marimba (player five).
Hans Werner Henze: Tristan (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/v/bgjm9H5u0Q0
An interesting list: http://www.americancomposers.org/orchestratech/oteri_list.htm
In the Low Countries several composers started using taped sounds quite early: Louis De Meester (1904 –1987), Karel Goeyvaerts (1923-1993), Lucien Goethals (1931-2006)
even Henk Badings used pre-recorded sounds in some of his works.
IPEM Ghent:
https://120years.net/ipem-institute-for-psychoacoustics-and-electronic-music-ghent-hubert-vuylsteke-walter-landrieu-belgium-1963/
http://www.pytheasmusic.org/electroacoustic_music.html
Quote from: pjme on April 19, 2017, 11:22:16 PM
Long before digital wizardry....
Roberto Gerhard : symphony nr. 3 "Collages" (1960) - a master-orchestrator.
https://www.youtube.com/v/CwGJvFv1z4s
The Third Symphony was commissioned by the Koussevitzky Foundation and dedicated to the memory of Serge and Natalie Koussevitzky. It received its first performance on 8 February 1961 at the Royal Festival Hall by the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Rudolph Schwartz. The BBC SO also recorded the work for EMI with the conductor Frederik Prausnitz on a long-deleted LP (ASD 2427). The work is scored for 2 flutes (doubling piccolos), piccolo, 3 oboes (3rd doubling cor anglais), 3 clarinets in A (3rd doubling bass clarinet), 2 bassoons, double bassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets in C, 2 trombones, bass trombone, tuba, timpani, harp, piano, electronic tape, strings and an enormous percussion section: large suspended cymbal, 3 tomtoms (large, medium, small), large antique cymbal, maracas, side drum, wood blocks (large and small) (player one); tam tam, bass drum (player two); xylo-rimba, glockenspiel (player three); vibraphone (player four); marimba (player five).
Hans Werner Henze: Tristan (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/v/bgjm9H5u0Q0
An interesting list: http://www.americancomposers.org/orchestratech/oteri_list.htm
In the Low Countries several composers started using taped sounds quite early: Louis De Meester (1904 –1987), Karel Goeyvaerts (1923-1993), Lucien Goethals (1931-2006)
even Henk Badings used pre-recorded sounds in some of his works.
IPEM Ghent:
https://120years.net/ipem-institute-for-psychoacoustics-and-electronic-music-ghent-hubert-vuylsteke-walter-landrieu-belgium-1963/
http://www.pytheasmusic.org/electroacoustic_music.html
I have had a look at the score for the Gerhard symphony, and I have listened to it a few times and really enjoy it. Also, thanks very much for the information and links! I will have a look at them for sure. Any new information for me is good!
Quote from: he has a cult following :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(It's an excellent symphony btw 8)/quote]
Hmmm, cult following is a bit exagerated, I fear... But he definitely is a composer of great imagination and splendid craftmanship. In his own, very personal way he can make the orchestra "glitter" or "shine" or "sparkle" without sounding cheap or garish...
I'd love to see and hear more of him in the concerthall.
P.
I generally like the use of tape (or more broadly, recorded material), and many of the examples in this thread. (Another Gerhard fan here, and I hope that some day, some orchestra, somewhere, will do that Third Symphony.) PS, my interest began years ago, hearing Varèse's Poème électronique -- "live," in the concert hall!
That said, most of the works I have heard in the last say, 10 years, have used live electronics. One of the problems with recorded material is maintaining a copy of the source, as recording mediums evolve. Was trying to recall a recent incident in which the actual tape had deteriorated so badly (and hadn't made it to the digital world) that the piece couldn't be performed.
--Bruce
Here are a few favorites of mine:
Nono: Sofferte onde serene for piano and tape
https://www.youtube.com/v/6yw4i1w4QKE
Takemitsu: Stanza II for harp and tape
https://www.youtube.com/v/YTFp_LvL8Bc
Babbitt: Correspondences for string orchestra and tape
https://www.youtube.com/v/VF-l2OFHs5I
This budget box set may be of interest to, or at least two of the CDs being germane to your question
[asin]B00TQNMCDU[/asin]
A lot of it is 1960/70s stuff at its hippie trippy dippyiest...
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/612nd2NJaHL.jpg)
ETA
A more targeted Amazon search
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=+Columbia+princeton+electronic+music+center
Luigi Nono: La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura, for violin and eight magnetic tapes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-CKVm8MXxU
Berio ~ Visages, solo voice and prepared tape
John Adams ~ John's book of Alleged dances, for string quartet and prepared tape
Terry Riley ~ Requiem for Adam, for String Quartet and tape
Inram Marshall ~ Fog tropes. This was originally a tape piece for a gallery exhibition: when composer pal John Adams heard it, he suggested to Marshall adding brass instruments to be part of the piece. The premiere recording is for tape and Brass Sextet.
Then too, this is GMG -- where you might simply PM NathanB, someguy, and a handful of others from whom you'll likely get a rapid response with twenty or more pieces and composers off the top of their heads, lol.
Best regards
Quote from: jessop on April 19, 2017, 09:30:55 PM
I am interested to know what you think of the use of tape, or some kind of electroacoustic track (as opposed to live electronics), in compositions. I don't know a huge amount of repertoire, so firstly some recommendations of things to check out would probably be a good place to start for me........
Like anything .. it depends on who's doing it. Stockhausen was the obvious pioneering genius in this area, developing surround sound in the process, various forms of multi-directional very specific, controlled/mixed/balanced musical sound projections. atomizing sound to its essence and developing, fusing, forming the music from the ground up .. and throughout his entire career he kept finding new ways of utilizing tape. Early masterpieces like Songs of the Youths carefully weaving together pure electronics with boy soprano in surround sound (Quad) .. then you get Contacts (Quad projection w/ 2 live performers) .. Anthems (Quad, large scale, thematic, multi-movement, multi-layer fusions/transformations) .. etc., etc. .. right on through to the Licht & Klang cycles where octophonic music & projection is developed and utilized in very thoughtful, inventive ways, and with much success imo.
Jonathan Harvey created Mortuos Plango Vivos Voco, great octophonic tape piece incorporating boy treble with tolling bell in an atomic fashion that can only be done on tape .. I'm sure there are others, he was expert in the field of electronics.
American composer Paul Lansky has created some great ones .. Ride and Dancetrax Remix come to mind, I'm sure there are others.
Vinao's Son Entero is another great one!
And what I love about these pieces is beneath the surface of the dazzling sound(s) there is a lot of actual music happening!
Quote from: James on April 21, 2017, 04:42:20 AM
...beneath the surface of the dazzling sound(s) there is a lot of actual music happening!
Interesting remark. Music being something that happens beneath the surface of sound. (Even the idea of sound being a surface thing is interesting.)
In any case, the idea that music is separate from/distinguishable from sound has an interesting history, especially the bits of it that come from composers and movements that James has strongly deprecated in the past.
Here are a few examples of early Belgo-Dutch electronic/tape music. However,I didn't find any major works with orchestra (yet...).
https://www.youtube.com/v/e6yH29yX-qA
https://www.youtube.com/v/7z1tbDQ2JoE
https://www.youtube.com/v/euIM-144EEQ
https://www.youtube.com/v/zhDhj_Jmjno
this fun...https://www.youtube.com/v/haprNA63Uq8
https://www.youtube.com/v/TytD9AH9vqA
Quote from: some guy on April 21, 2017, 05:44:56 AMInteresting remark. Music being something that happens beneath the surface of sound. (Even the idea of sound being a surface thing is interesting.)
In any case, the idea that music is separate from/distinguishable from sound has an interesting history, especially the bits of it that come from composers and movements that James has strongly deprecated in the past.
I never said music is was separate from sound (timbre/sound-color), the timbre is like the clothing the notes wear essentially. Timbre quality is just 1 aspect of music. An important aspect - I may play the heaviest shit on guitar, but if my tone sucks balls to the point where no one could bare to listen? Akin to the most beautiful woman having a very deep husky man-like voice! There is obviously more to music though. Melody? harmony? rhythm? texture?, form? arrangement? how all these things relate to each other and develop and evolve over time? performance dynamics? the expressive dimensions? etc. Conversely, you may have a great tone but if that's all you have, and you have little or no vocabulary, than you ain't going to be saying much, if anything at all.
Quote from: some guy on April 21, 2017, 05:44:56 AM
Interesting remark. Music being something that happens beneath the surface of sound. (Even the idea of sound being a surface thing is interesting.)
In any case, the idea that music is separate from/distinguishable from sound has an interesting history, especially the bits of it that come from composers and movements that James has strongly deprecated in the past.
Music as sound, regardless of the sound sources? Whoa, boy! Are you going radical anarchist on us?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
On the more 'trad - conservative' front, synthesizers and synthesized sounds are used in Steve Reich's Variations for strings, winds, and keyboards and John Adams' Violin Concerto. In the Adams, the timbre and usage are relatively subtle; it is most audible, prominent, in the middle movement Body through which the dream flows. Adams has used, also discretely, synthesizers in some of his other orchestral works.
Discrete and conservative, or more distinctly 'electronic' and in the foreground (a matter of choice by the composer), keyboard synths are a very useful addition, and have the benefit of being able to be played 'in real time,' without completely locking in the tempo of the piece -- that allows for all the real variances of the overall tempo dependent upon the acoustic of the hall in which the piece is played, as well as for a more natural flex time in actual performance.
Synth keyboards allow for a quick change of registration; like an organ, this makes for a rapid change of timbre palette. They usually have a split keyboard capacity as well, where a preset range of notes on the keyboard are assigned to one timbre, a second or third range of notes to other sounds. Too, a number of them allow uploading a sound sample or track into their data bank so even a prerecorded sound from another source can be transferred into the keyboard and then 'played,' by a player.
Laptops, too, have real capacities to develop and record timbres, synthesized in the computer via software or imported into it from external sources, and / or longer 'tracks,' and then to trigger 'play' those in real time.
Some excellent music has been recommended so far. The Gerhard and the Henze were certainly staples of my listening life.
As was the Varese, of course. Lovely work.
But really, there is so much. It's like asking for baroque music that uses harpsichord. :)
Probably the most prolific (and most consistently good) composers of electronics and solo instrument or small ensemble are the Romanian duo of Dumitrescu and Avram. One of their dear friends and collaborators, Tim Hodgkinson, also has a respectable ouevre in this regard. One thing to watch with both Dumitrescu and Avram is that they both write things for acoustic instruments that sound electronic. Just a thing that they do.
I just heard a nice song ( ;)) on youtube by Mayu Hirano, Instant Suspendu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I7A1qYvVb4
(When I typed "accordion and tape" just now to find the url, I got a bunch of stuff about accordion and duct tape--which is fine, if you're into that kind of thing--so if you're looking for accordion and electronics, and who isn't, now and again, then type "accordion and electronics" at the youtube prompt. But I also first typed "accordion and tap" and the first thing that shows up is a video of my friend Lucie Vítková doing a thing with, surprisingly enough, accordion and tap shoes. I guess you'll just have to wait for the accordion and kohler piece. While you wait, though, here's Lucie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqNkR4S4F0)
All of us who liked the Varese and Gerhard and Henze were constantly on the look out for more of the same, until we realized that we got into this situation in the first place by looking for new things. Nice though Kraanerg (Xenakis) and Elements (Sani) and symphony 7 (Terterian) may be. (Oh, and Vertigo by Reynolds is nice, too, if you're keeping your explorations focussed.)
So old school some guy, so overdone, nothing new .. and that second piece is really lame on a musical level - and without the visual? Even worse. I wouldn't listen to this more than once, there just isn't much there. The problem with a lot of this stuff (past & present) is that it's just all soundscapes .. can any of these folks really write or play a beautiful melody? You know, a melody so good that that the audience would want to put it in theirs pockets and take it home with them .. and what about rhythmic vivacity? Sheesh .. a lot of this stuff is just so derivative of earlier post-1950 avant-garde with perhaps easier production values.
Quote from: James on April 23, 2017, 07:58:26 AM
So old school some guy, so overdone, nothing new .. and that second piece is really lame on a musical level - and without the visual? Even worse. I wouldn't listen to this more than once, there just isn't much there. The problem with a lot of this stuff (past & present) is that it's just all soundscapes .. can any of these folks really write or play a beautiful melody? You know, a melody so good that that the audience would want to put it in theirs pockets and take it home with them .. and what about rhythmic vivacity? Sheesh .. a lot of this stuff is just so derivative of earlier post-1950 avant-garde with perhaps easier production values.
The place for you to relocate to is scenic, lovely. and friendly
Catchytunes, Saskatchewan, Canada [© pb/poieinltd 2014] (Pop. 78,471)
I'm sure the locals would warmly welcome you as the 78,472nd addition to their community... but if you want that slot, you'd better hurry, because
Catchytunes Saskatchewanian [© pb/poieinltd 2014] No.72,443 is due to pop out a kid any day now.
Always best regards.
Quote from: Thatfabulousalien on April 23, 2017, 01:28:41 PM
https://youtu.be/QGJuMBdaqIw (https://youtu.be/QGJuMBdaqIw)
I referring to art music, but since you bring up popular music - I can think of hordes of it (pop/rock/jazz) that just absolutely floors most of this meaningless soundscape wankery.
Quote from: James on April 23, 2017, 07:58:26 AM
The problem with a lot of this stuff (past & present) is that it's just all soundscapes ..
You wanna talk old-school and severely dated, and impossible to not make sound that way, let's discuss Palestrina, Bach, Vivaldi, Beethoven, Wagner, Sibelius, etc. Sheesh, indeed!
Please, explain to us just which pieces, out of all classical literature past to present, are not 'just soundscapes.'
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 23, 2017, 09:12:09 PM
Please, explain to us just which pieces, out of all classical literature past to present, are not 'just soundscapes.'
I am not James but I'll give you one for each composer you mentioned:
Palestrina - Missa papae Marcelli
Vivaldi - La tempesta di mare
Bach - Cappricio sopra la lontananza del suo fratello dilettissimo
Beethoven - Egmont Overture
Wagner - Tannhaeuser
Sibelius - En saga
And please don't forget about this:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,26928.msg1057093.html#msg1057093I am really interested in what you have to say.
:-*
Quote from: Florestan on April 24, 2017, 01:46:08 AM
I am not James but I'll give you one for each composer you mentioned:
Palestrina - Missa papae Marcelli
Vivaldi - La tempesta di mare
Bach - Cappricio sopra la lontananza del suo fratello dilettissimo
Beethoven - Egmont Overture
Wagner - Tannhaeuser
Sibelius - En saga
I am really interested in what you have to say.
:-*
I maintain that any piece of music, I suppose those including text, are, generically, "
sonic soundscapes." I.e. as a less specific and non-pejorative term,
that is what they all are.
Murray Schafer it was who coined the term "soundscape," but it's Pauline Oliveros definition that fits more closely into the current discussion:
"All of the waveforms faithfully transmitted to our audio cortex by the ear and its mechanisms".
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 24, 2017, 02:37:20 PM
"sonic soundscapes." I.e. as a less specific and non-pejorative term, that is what they all are.
That's like saying
all paintings are visual colorscapes --- and let's ignore the pleonasm in both cases. True strictly physically speaking, but completely irrelevant and meaningless when it comes to a specific painting, for instance this one:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02345/herbert_main_2345601b.jpg)
But this particular sidepath did not start as a means to identifying useful characteristics of individual works, but a diss (like atonal, maybe) of whatever James happens not to like. Monsieur Croche then simply pointed out that any piece of music could be called a soundscape. As any painting can be called a colorscape. Not particularly useful, no. Not particularly apt as a diss was M. Croche's point, I believe.
Quote from: some guy on April 25, 2017, 08:43:31 AM
But this particular sidepath did not start as a means to identifying useful characteristics of individual works, but a diss (like atonal, maybe) of whatever James happens not to like. Monsieur Croche then simply pointed out that any piece of music could be called a soundscape. As any painting can be called a colorscape. Not particularly useful, no. Not particularly apt as a diss was M. Croche's point, I believe.
With this I wholeheartedly agree. Each and every single work of art has a context, which can't be ignored without the risk of misconstrueing and misunderstanding it.
Ok I had a fascinating experience today with one of the composition teachers who was trialling an idea for an upcoming piece with us. She had created a musique concrète track and then worked out a live piano part based on harmonic partials from the track n stuff like that. the musique concrète element of the piece was composed in the way one would expect for a composition that is instrument+tape (or CD) to be performed with speakers as well as the live instrument. The difference here is that it was created for the purpose of a mobile phone's microphone....the idea being that the speakers that the audience hears the electronic part of the piece are actually the speaker from their mobile phones (they get a link to download the track to their device and they are given a downbeat by the pianist to press play at the start of the piece). I was sitting at the edge of the room and about 20 to 30 phones were being played ever so slightly out of synch due to the expected inaccuracy of hitting the play button all at the same time. I thought the concept worked, although the people sitting in the middle certainly got the better seats to be surrounded by the sound.
Maybe I could use this idea in the future. What do you think of it?
Does it matter what we think? I would say no. It only matters what you think of the idea.
You're a human. You're interested in something. Chances are, there will be other humans similarly interested.
Done.
(Oh, and also, DO IT!! I'd like to hear something like that.)
Quote from: some guy on April 27, 2017, 02:49:27 AM
Does it matter what we think? I would say no. It only matters what you think of the idea.
You're a human. You're interested in something. Chances are, there will be other humans similarly interested.
Done.
(Oh, and also, DO IT!! I'd like to hear something like that.)
Thanks for telling me what you think ;D
But also, good advice :)
I hoped that that would amuse you. :)
Quote from: some guy on April 27, 2017, 02:49:27 AM
Does it matter what we think? I would say no. It only matters what you think of the idea.
You're a human. You're interested in something. Chances are, there will be other humans similarly interested.
Done.
(Oh, and also, DO IT!! I'd like to hear something like that.)
I'm not enchanted with the idea, other than the flirtation with some degree of "audience participation." One could
plan on that slight out of sync effect in making both the concrete element as well as the whole piece, of course, and play with it well, imo.
My disenchantment with the concept is with the audio quality of the phone speakers itself.
I think and hope that you are already keenly aware that if you are not yourself keenly interested in a concept or musical idea, that to pursue it is nigh onto futile ;-)
Always best regards.
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 27, 2017, 04:53:12 PM
I'm not enchanted with the idea, other than the flirtation with some degree of "audience participation." One could plan on that slight out of sync effect in making both the concrete element as well as the whole piece, of course, and play with it well, imo.
My disenchantment with the concept is with the audio quality of the phone speakers itself.
I think and hope that you are already keenly aware that if you are not yourself keenly interested in a concept or musical idea, that to pursue it is nigh onto futile ;-)
Always best regards.
The audio quality of phone speakers are pretty terrible....i would hope that the only reason do use them is for a low-fi aesthetic, which could be perfectly fine when done well.
I wonder how unobtrusively I can post after a 2-year absence from GMG? (Of course this preamble won't help my chances...)
Plenty of my favorite works have already been mentioned, but I'm surprised not see Mario Davidovsky's Synchronisms, a series of works for one or more live performers plus tape. Nearly all have been recorded, but surely it's time for a complete set!
Synchronisms 6 for Piano and Tape
https://youtu.be/b1asXsfEmE0
Synchronisms 9 for Violin and Tape
https://youtu.be/wJCcERdh6rA
And I'm less surprised to be making the first mention of Arthur Kreiger, but he has produced a number of wonderful pieces with tape. Highly recommended to anyone who enjoys Davidovsky.
Joint Session for Bass Clarinet and Tape
https://youtu.be/GKamYYF88a8
Meeting Places for Ensemble and Tape
https://youtu.be/QnUL3oShFzY
One of my fav BF pieces
https://www.youtube.com/v/KQVeOp12_E4
Quote from: PaulSC on April 28, 2017, 01:11:11 PM
I wonder how unobtrusively I can post after a 2-year absence from GMG? (Of course this preamble won't help my chances...)
Plenty of my favorite works have already been mentioned, but I'm surprised not see Mario Davidovsky's Synchronisms, a series of works for one or more live performers plus tape. Nearly all have been recorded, but surely it's time for a complete set!
Synchronisms 6 for Piano and Tape
https://youtu.be/b1asXsfEmE0
Synchronisms 9 for Violin and Tape
https://youtu.be/wJCcERdh6rA
And I'm less surprised to be making the first mention of Arthur Kreiger, but he has produced a number of wonderful pieces with tape. Highly recommended to anyone who enjoys Davidovsky.
Joint Session for Bass Clarinet and Tape
https://youtu.be/GKamYYF88a8
Meeting Places for Ensemble and Tape
https://youtu.be/QnUL3oShFzY
Wow thank you! I wasn't aware of these before you posted! Glad that you decided to make another post! :)
Quote from: Monsieur Croche on April 24, 2017, 02:37:20 PM
I maintain that any piece of music, I suppose those including text, are, generically, "sonic soundscapes." I.e. as a less specific and non-pejorative term, that is what they all are.
What I ment was that most of this shit just ends up being about the sound, not the melody.
I feel most modern tape music is behind in technology, both the music and the way it is often "performed" feels very underutilized. Rock bands in the 70s seemed to be performing more elaborate concerts, are we really that far behind?
Quote from: James on April 28, 2017, 02:53:25 PM
What I ment was that most of this shit just ends up being about the sound, not the melody.
Lmao
Depends what you're listening for in music. It's a silly idea to blame the creator rather than yourself for 'getting it wrong.'
Quote from: Webernian on April 28, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
I feel most modern tape music is behind in technology, both the music and the way it is often "performed" feels very underutilized. Rock bands in the 70s seemed to be performing more elaborate concerts, are we really that far behind?
In what ways do you think electronics in general could be used in a more elaborate way? I guess music which combines live instruments plus accompanying tape is one of the simplest varieties, but some really good pieces have come out of it, just like with any other utilisation of electronics.
Quote from: jessop on April 28, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
Lmao
Depends what you're listening for in music. It's a silly idea to blame the creator rather than yourself for 'getting it wrong.'
The really good composers/players that have great skills, have melody throughout. Melody is prevalent.
Quote from: James on April 28, 2017, 04:39:43 PM
The really good composers/players that have great skills, have melody throughout. Melody is prevalent.
......and it's part of the sonic soundscape. What's your point?
Quote from: jessop on April 28, 2017, 08:38:45 PM
......and it's part of the sonic soundscape. What's your point?
My point is clearly flying way over your head.
Quote from: James on April 29, 2017, 06:42:56 AMMy point is clearly flying way over your head.
Clearly.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Quote from: Webernian on April 28, 2017, 02:54:19 PM
I feel most modern tape music is behind in technology, both the music and the way it is often "performed" feels very underutilized.
Most art music electronica pales significantly with the great music that has been written and played on traditional instruments. Overall, electronics just don't have the same poise or nuance. And above all, much of it is about 'the sound', not the melody. There is a huge vacuum in much of it for having a strong melodic sense, hearing melody, or having great skills with melody. The best composers/players have great skills with melody. They understand the power of it. Composing a melody so great that it captures everyone is the hardest thing to do. Composing where is it perceptible throughout. Most of the post-war avant-garde stuff, what occurred there, had little to do with music, it was more about what it represented. Ditto all the highly derivative offshoots of that we see since (as evidenced in this thread). They all were a bunch of kids who wanted to be iconoclasts above all, a lot of it just lacks maturity, skill, and represents virtually no growth (especially compared to earlier styles of classical music - Baroque, Romantic, Classical). 99% of it is dated, and it had little ability or chance of reaching out beyond peers to lay people.
If the whole "greatness" thing is what helps you sleep at night, then it would be equally easy to say that all recent music written and played for traditional instruments pales significantly in comparison to the great music of the past. That art music electronica pales significantly when compared to contemporary art music for traditional intruments probably wouldn't be quite so easy to say, though I don't really know how easy things are to say or not, not really.
What is easy to say, for me, is that I don't have the foggiest idea what poise or nuance refer to when differentiating between electronically produced or manipulated sounds and sounds produced by traditional instruments. I'm pretty sure they refer to nothing.
As for melody, well, it's OK, I guess. I like sounds that go up and down as time goes by. But I also like sounds that stay the same as time goes by, or that change rhythmically (horizontally) rather than vertically. I'm pretty sure that "a melody so great that it captures everyone" is a null set. Nothing on earth or anywhere else captures everyone. People are different. You may have noticed it, yourself.
It would, in conclusion, be terrifically interesting to hear how it was that three or four generations of composers, give or take, all turned out to be a bunch of kids. Some of them might be a trifle put out to hear that. Most would probably just be amused. The more mature ones would be. And some of them might just take that as an enormous compliment, kids being so obviously and outrageously receptive and intelligent and capable of learning enormous amounts of information, seemly effortlessly. Yeah, I can see that a lot of people would be quite receptive to being compared with the group of people most able to see and understand and learn.
only death captures everyone
~ jessop, 'veteran member'
Quote from: James on April 29, 2017, 07:38:30 AM
Most art music electronica pales significantly with the great music that has been written and played on traditional instruments.
Actually the "traditional instruments" you speak of and "great music", is significantly more dated than electronic music. That's an issue: "I have a problem with today, so I shall look even further to the past for even more dated music".
The way electro-acoustic music is created, the way it uses sounds and the way it is consumed by it's audience hasn't even caught up in general to the 70s. The kinds of concerts we are getting in many non-classical genres are simply superior, as they are more stimulating and have a more lively atmosphere.
Regarding solely the vague genre of electronic music, non-classical electronic music tends to use a greater proportion of note spacing at one time (between low bass to higher registers simultaneously).
Electro-acoustic music isn't a fad or a dud, believe you me but like all classical music, has some major cultural adjusting to do.
Quote from: some guy on April 29, 2017, 10:56:08 AMit would be equally easy to say that all recent music written and played for traditional instruments pales significantly in comparison to the great music of the past.
Well yea .. you can easily extend what I said to include how they write/play traditional instruments too.
Quote from: some guy on April 29, 2017, 10:56:08 AMAs for melody, well, it's OK, I guess. I like sounds that go up and down as time goes by.
Is that the sum total of what 'great skills with melody' entails for you? Is that how you interpret what that means and implies? LOL
Quote from: James on April 30, 2017, 05:48:28 AM
Is that the sum total of what 'great skills with melody' entails for you? Is that how you interpret what that means and implies? LOL
Don't LOL. He likes sounds, you like music. Two quite different things for which there is no common yardstick. ;D
Quote from: Webernian on April 29, 2017, 05:26:43 PM
Actually the "traditional instruments" you speak of and "great music", is significantly more dated than electronic music. That's an issue: "I have a problem with today, so I shall look even further to the past for even more dated music".
The way electro-acoustic music is created, the way it uses sounds and the way it is consumed by it's audience hasn't even caught up in general to the 70s. The kinds of concerts we are getting in many non-classical genres are simply superior, as they are more stimulating and have a more lively atmosphere.
Regarding solely the vague genre of electronic music, non-classical electronic music tends to use a greater proportion of note spacing at one time (between low bass to higher registers simultaneously).
Electro-acoustic music isn't a fad or a dud, believe you me but like all classical music, has some major cultural adjusting to do.
???
Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 05:54:40 AM
Don't LOL. He likes sounds, you like music. Two quite different things for which there is no common yardstick. ;D
Yea .. that's all it is. Sounds. Up and down. :blank:
New = de-evolution. ;D
Quote from: James on April 30, 2017, 06:19:43 AM
that's all it is. Sounds.
Exactly. He's repeatedly stated it in plain English.
Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2017, 06:23:37 AM
Exactly. He's repeatedly stated it in plain English.
Yes, he certainly has - I can see that. Too bad for him.
Quote from: James on April 28, 2017, 02:53:25 PM
What I ment was that most of this shit just ends up being about the sound, not the melody.
Like I said,
Catchytunes, Saskatchewan, Canada [© pb/poieinltd 2014] where every man, woman and child carries tunes around in buckets. Or, you can always take melody refuge in your Paul McCartney collection....
I really love the sound of music and the way I feel when I listen to it. What's so bad about understanding music in terms of sound? It certainly isn't the only way to think and talk about music but it is the only way we can actually hear music.