GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Name That Tune? => Topic started by: relm1 on July 10, 2017, 11:21:47 AM

Title: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on July 10, 2017, 11:21:47 AM
Any ideas what this is?
http://picosong.com/WBFp/

It sounds like it could be Liszt. 
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: donelson on March 18, 2018, 11:01:54 AM
Wagner? Sounds familiar, but I don't know it.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Josquin13 on March 19, 2018, 03:38:00 PM
It sounds familiar.  My first response was that it could be Russian, possibly Rimsky-Korsakov or Gliere.  But then, on further listening, it began to sound more early Romantic & German to me--like music by Schumann or Weber.   I don't think it's from one of Schumann's 4 Symphonies, but it could be an overture or one of his shorter orchestral works (such as the Konzerstücke for 4 Horns?).   It could also be an overture by Weber (perhaps Die Freischutz? etc.), or maybe from one of his 2 symphonies.  But it doesn't sound like Liszt or Mendelssohn to me, though it could be by them.  Nor do I think it's by Wagner, either.  So my guess is that it's either a work by Schumann or Weber, or by a composer that was strongly influenced by them (like one of the French composers).
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Cato on March 22, 2018, 06:35:35 AM
Quote from: Josquin13 on March 19, 2018, 03:38:00 PM
It sounds familiar.  My first response was that it could be Russian, possibly Rimsky-Korsakov or Gliere.  But then, on further listening, it began to sound more early Romantic & German to me--like music by Schumann or Weber.   I don't think it's from one of Schumann's 4 Symphonies, but it could be an overture or one of his shorter orchestral works (such as the Konzerstücke for 4 Horns?).   It could also be an overture by Weber (perhaps Die Freischutz? etc.), or maybe from one of his 2 symphonies.  But it doesn't sound like Liszt or Mendelssohn to me, though it could be by them.  Nor do I think it's by Wagner, either.  So my guess is that it's either a work by Schumann or Weber, or by a composer that was strongly influenced by them (like one of the French composers).

Right, not from the Schumann symphonies, and it sounds post-C. M. Weber to my ears.  Perhaps it comes from Joachim Raff or one of the lesser known works of Franz von Suppe': it does have the aroma of opera music.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2018, 07:25:38 AM
with the massive brass and cymbals it is definitely much later than Weber. I am not familiar enough with the Liszt symphonic poems but it is certainly closer to them in sound and style than to Schumann. So I'd say ca. 1850s-80s and it does sound "theatrical", so it could be an ouverture. Sounds more heavy than Suppé operetta, though.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 01:38:33 PM
I'd guess a contemporary of Liszt/Wagner. Where did the file come from?
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Mahlerian on April 09, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
Quote from: Josquin13 on March 19, 2018, 03:38:00 PMI don't think it's from one of Schumann's 4 Symphonies, but it could be an overture or one of his shorter orchestral works (such as the Konzerstücke for 4 Horns?).

Definitely none of those things.  Certainly not Schumann.

Sounds like a parody of the most bombastic bits of Tchaikovsky to me.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 03:16:58 PM
I sense a contradiction between the old fashioned style and the more harmonically advanced technique. Maybe from a Korngold film score?
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Brian on April 14, 2018, 12:16:39 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 03:16:58 PM
I sense a contradiction between the old fashioned style and the more harmonically advanced technique. Maybe from a Korngold film score?
I can't recognize it either but agree that a 1940s-type Hollywood soundtrack is the best bet.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Christo on April 14, 2018, 02:31:23 PM
Quote from: Mahlerian on April 09, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
Definitely none of those things.  Certainly not Schumann.

Sounds like a parody of the most bombastic bits of Tchaikovsky to me.
Same here: a Tchaikovsky parody, possibly Von Suppé, perhaps Léhar, but older than Hollywood.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on April 14, 2018, 04:38:34 PM
Quote from: Josquin13 on March 19, 2018, 03:38:00 PM
It sounds familiar.  My first response was that it could be Russian, possibly Rimsky-Korsakov or Gliere.  But then, on further listening, it began to sound more early Romantic & German to me--like music by Schumann or Weber.   I don't think it's from one of Schumann's 4 Symphonies, but it could be an overture or one of his shorter orchestral works (such as the Konzerstücke for 4 Horns?).   It could also be an overture by Weber (perhaps Die Freischutz? etc.), or maybe from one of his 2 symphonies.  But it doesn't sound like Liszt or Mendelssohn to me, though it could be by them.  Nor do I think it's by Wagner, either.  So my guess is that it's either a work by Schumann or Weber, or by a composer that was strongly influenced by them (like one of the French composers).

I agree its more Hungarian/Germanic than Russian.  Sounds like it might be from an opera overture.  I don't think it is from Wagner either unless it is early Wagner which is less like his mature style.  I listened to all the Liszt tone poems thinking it might be one of those but it isn't though the mannerism and style is similar. 
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on April 14, 2018, 04:39:56 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 01:38:33 PM
I'd guess a contemporary of Liszt/Wagner. Where did the file come from?

I don't have a good answer to this question.  I found it on my computer when searching for something and it was just called good music. I have no idea where I got it from!
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on April 14, 2018, 04:42:37 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 09, 2018, 03:16:58 PM
I sense a contradiction between the old fashioned style and the more harmonically advanced technique. Maybe from a Korngold film score?

If this is pastiche you are a genius for catching that because it is so close in style to romantic music.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on April 14, 2018, 04:44:33 PM
Quote from: Christo on April 14, 2018, 02:31:23 PM
Same here: a Tchaikovsky parody, possibly Von Suppé, perhaps Léhar, but older than Hollywood.

Very, very interesting.  I placed it around 1850 but some folks place it mid 20th century imitating mid 19th century. 
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 14, 2018, 10:21:38 PM
Definitely sounds like a pastiche, and I am 99% certain I have heard this in a movie....but which one?
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Biffo on April 15, 2018, 12:26:32 AM
I would say that who ever wrote it had heard the Introduction to Act I of Die Walkure. Now I will probably be left with egg on my face when it turns out to pre-date that work.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2018, 12:45:17 PM
What we need is the audio equivalent of google images.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Ken B on April 15, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 15, 2018, 12:45:17 PM
What we need is the audio equivalent of google images.
Shazam.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 15, 2018, 03:32:28 PM
Quote from: Ken B on April 15, 2018, 12:50:34 PM
Shazam.

I checked it yesterday but it didn't recognise the music.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on April 15, 2018, 03:42:16 PM
If this is a 19th century work it could be a very poor composition by someone influenced by Wagner.......the first person that comes to mind is Augusta Holmès but even her works sound much more authentic to the era than this. If this is an actual 19th century orchestral score I can only assume it is meant to parody more serious operas. Offenbach wrote an operetta satirising Wagner so it could be that, or something like it.

relm1, curiously, where did you first hear this and where did you get the sound file from?
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Daverz on April 15, 2018, 04:36:20 PM
I have no clue what this is, but I can imagine this playing during a montage in some 1930s historical drama with Adolphe Manjou.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Ken B on April 15, 2018, 04:51:45 PM
It sounds like a sea storm scene, possibly from a movie or opera. It does have a whiff of Tchaikovsky. Who is a lesser Korngold? (It's not John Williams, Karl!)
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Biffo on April 16, 2018, 01:09:07 AM
Quote from: Biffo on April 15, 2018, 12:26:32 AM
I would say that who ever wrote it had heard the Introduction to Act I of Die Walkure. Now I will probably be left with egg on my face when it turns out to pre-date that work.

Change of mind, it is more like the Introduction to Act III of Siegfried but still ersatz- Wagner. It sounds vaguely similar in style to the Overture to Captain Blood by Korngold. I thought I had more Korngold film music but can't find it right now.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
This music is from the score to the D. W. Griffith's 1915 silent film, "Birth of a Nation".  It did have a symphonic score composed that mixed pastiche with classics (Weber, Suppe, Wagner, etc), along with civil war songs, military songs, and an original score by Joseph Carl Breil (1870-1926).  There were two re-recordings/reconstructions so the work is available on CD.  The movie has a running time of 3 hours and 10 minutes and since it is silent, it is all scored.

So good ear to those of you who correctly spotted this as early 20th century pastiche of mid 19th century style. 
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Cato on May 01, 2018, 07:45:46 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
This music is from the score to the D. W. Griffith's 1915 silent film, "Birth of a Nation".  It did have a symphonic score composed that mixed pastiche with classics (Weber, Suppe, Wagner, etc), along with civil war songs, military songs, and an original score by Joseph Carl Breil (1870-1926).  There were two re-recordings/reconstructions so the work is available on CD.  The movie has a running time of 3 hours and 10 minutes and since it is silent, it is all scored.

So good ear to those of you who correctly spotted this as early 20th century pastiche of mid 19th century style.

Relm1: How did you discover the source?
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 01, 2018, 04:04:49 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 07:00:23 AM
This music is from the score to the D. W. Griffith's 1915 silent film, "Birth of a Nation". 

Oh dear! Well I have seen things about the movie so I presume I heard the score in relation to that.............

I will certainly not waste three hours of my life watching it!
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 01, 2018, 04:04:49 PM
Oh dear! Well I have seen things about the movie so I presume I heard the score in relation to that.............

I will certainly not waste three hours of my life watching it!

Don't watch the film!  It is offensive unless you are a film historian!  The music is fantastic so imagine your own Ring cycle story which they were clearly trying to imitate in a way that history does not favor.  They used the aryan concept of history and favored white supremacists version of an ideal bread in 1915.  BUT it is a very important historical film of that era.  Take it as a historical document not as accurate history. 
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: Cato on May 01, 2018, 07:45:46 AM
Relm1: How did you discover the source?

I'm a genius.  :P Plus I found the source of the clip who wrote an extensive thesis on the film score since it included real quotes of preexisting classical music occupying roughly a third of the score.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: ComposerOfAvantGarde on May 01, 2018, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
Don't watch the film!  It is offensive unless you are a film historian!  The music is fantastic so imagine your own Ring cycle story which they were clearly trying to imitate in a way that history does not favor.  They used the aryan concept of history and favored white supremacists version of an ideal bread in 1915.  BUT it is a very important historical film of that era.  Take it as a historical document not as accurate history. 

Yep I think it was even extremely controversial in its own time
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Ken B on May 01, 2018, 07:15:57 PM
Quote from: jessop on May 01, 2018, 05:00:14 PM
Yep I think it was even extremely controversial in its own time
It was. But it is worth seeing if you have an interest in film. Or propaganda. It was a quantum leap in both.

Surely I don't have to convince an Ives fan that crap can be interesting if it introduced new techniques.  ;) >:D :laugh:
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2018, 04:32:49 AM
Ouch!
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 02, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
Well, it wasn't Korngold, but I wasn't too far off the mark. :) I remember long ago hearing a Korngold piece used for the main titles of a film. It had the same combination of dissonance used for tone color, opulent orchestration, and drama. I wish I could remember the film, I don't want to buy a giant pile of Korngold film music CDs to find it.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2018, 02:58:45 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 02, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
[...] I wish I could remember the film, I don't want to buy a giant pile of Korngold film music CDs to find it.

We are of a mind, there.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 03, 2018, 03:24:39 AM
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 02, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
Well, it wasn't Korngold, but I wasn't too far off the mark. :) I remember long ago hearing a Korngold piece used for the main titles of a film. It had the same combination of dissonance used for tone color, opulent orchestration, and drama. I wish I could remember the film, I don't want to buy a giant pile of Korngold film music CDs to find it.

Might it have been one of these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg1IUEJw9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dg1IUEJw9g)

Those film music discs (now in a different cover) are quite good in any case...
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: Baron Scarpia on May 03, 2018, 09:05:52 AM
I vaguely remember that the film was set in Ancient Rome. Maybe that's my memory playing tricks. I heard it on a segment on NPR maybe 10 years ago.
Title: Re: What is this orchestral work?
Post by: North Star on May 03, 2018, 10:24:38 AM
Quote from: relm1 on May 01, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
favored white supremacists version of an ideal bread in 1915.
As a fan of brown bread, that's disgusting.