saint-saens and Mahler ? Thnx
The h in Mahler is silent.
Two syllables:
Ma (like mother) - ler (like ler in Butler) :)
thnx.
also forgot about haydn. is it Hay-den or Hi-den?
Saint-Saëns :
hard to explain, no other european language use the first vowel sound (ain) , I think.
The second vowel sound (aën) also exists in polish and portuguese, but not in english.
Both sounds come from the nose.
Don't pronounce the "t"
But pronounce every "s"
This link will tell you almost all you need about pronunciation of composer's names
http://www.pronunciationguide.org/ (http://www.pronunciationguide.org/)
Quote from: andy on August 17, 2007, 08:14:43 AM
This link will tell you almost all you need about pronunciation of composer's names
http://www.pronunciationguide.org/ (http://www.pronunciationguide.org/)
not really, they give the example of Messiaen.
Messiaen's "aen" has to be pronounced the same way than Saint-Saëns' "ain" actually (to be honest, I'm not sure, everyone does not pronounce it the same way).
Saint-Saëns' "aën" is usually written "an" or "en".
Interesting link anyway.
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 17, 2007, 08:29:43 AM
not really, they give the example of Messiaen.
Messiaen's "aen" has to be pronounced the same way than Saint-Saëns' "ain" actually (to be honest, I'm not sure, everyone does not pronounce it the same way).
Saint-Saëns' "aën" is usually written "an" or "en".
Interesting link anyway.
True enough... I guess I should rephrase my statement to say, enough to not look like an idiot when pronouncing composer's names in public :)
Quote from: George on August 17, 2007, 08:00:33 AM
The h in Mahler is silent.
Two syllables:
Ma (like mother) - ler (like ler in Butler) :)
I did not know that. I thought "H" was pronounced. And the second syllable pronounced as in "[La] Mer"
Quote from: orbital on August 17, 2007, 09:04:04 AM
I did not know that. I thought "H" was pronounced. And the second syllable pronounced as in "[La] Mer"
That's not my understanding. :-\
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 17, 2007, 08:13:23 AM
Saint-Saëns :
hard to explain, no other european language use the first vowel sound (ain) , I think.
The second vowel sound (aën) also exists in polish and portuguese, but not in english.
Both sounds come from the nose.
Don't pronounce the "t"
But pronounce every "s"
The sound of (aën) i could agree we use, like in my name João, but we don't have the "ä" in our languange. just the "ã" and only with the "a", no other letter.
Talking about Portuguese of course, a bit of topic but...
In case of Mahler and Haydn:
Haydn = Hi - den (stress on Hi)
Mahler = Ma (a long "Ma" like the ma in "mark" (but without the r!) ) - ler (speak "fair" and replace the f with an l)
The h in Mahler means that the a must be long.
That was the wisdom of a native German ;-)
The two nasal sounds in Saint-Saëns' name are rather difficult for non-French-speakers to master. Lift the back of your tongue like you were doing an "ng" sound, but don't quite close it. For "Saint" you should have a vowel sound that's close to the "an" of "and," while for Saëns the vowel is close to the English "on." I believe that, properly, the final S is NOT pronounced.
Ogden Nash was apparently frustrated enough with this name's pronunciation to write,
"Camille Saint-Saëns was racked with pains
When people addressed him as Saint Sains.
He held the human race to blame
Because it could not pronounce his name." ;D --from the verses for Carnival of the Animals
Quote from: andy on August 17, 2007, 08:14:43 AM
This link will tell you almost all you need about pronunciation of composer's names
http://www.pronunciationguide.org/ (http://www.pronunciationguide.org/)
Great link, Andy!
Maybe of interest, native speakers pronouncing:
Bedřich Smetana - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Cs-Bedrich_Smetana.ogg
Dmitri Shostakovich - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Ru-Dmitri_Dmitrievich_Shostakovich.ogg
Antonín Dvořák - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Cs-Antonin_Dvorak.ogg
Quote from: rappy on August 17, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
In case of Mahler and Haydn:
Haydn = Hi - den (stress on Hi)
Mahler = Ma (a long "Ma" like the ma in "mark" (but without the r!) ) - ler (speak "fair" and replace the f with an l)
The h in Mahler means that the a must be long.
That was the wisdom of a native German ;-)
Rappy, if Mahler had been a painter, how would you pronounce Mahler der Maler?
Same thing here. Russian native speaker pronounces some name (click on the image):
http://digilander.libero.it/alebeat/Compositorirussi.htm
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 20, 2007, 05:51:04 AM
Rappy, if Mahler had been a painter, how would you pronounce Mahler der Maler?
In German it would actually be the same. Since there's only one L after the a, the a is long anyway.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 20, 2007, 05:51:04 AM
Rappy, if Mahler had been a painter, how would you pronounce Mahler der Maler?
Quote from: rappy on August 20, 2007, 06:17:13 AM
In German it would actually be the same. Since there's only one L after the a, the a is long anyway.
I was honestly very confused the first time I heard someone say "Hindemith's Mathis der Maler Symphony."
Mind you, this was before I knew much about either Hindemith OR Mahler! And certainly before I studied any German.
How do you pronounce Leoš Janáček? and Mieczysław Weinberg?
leh osh Yanachek
M yeah chuh swav vineberg
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 20, 2007, 08:53:25 AM
leosh Yanachek
M yeah chuh swav vineberg
Shanksh choo very musch.
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 20, 2007, 08:53:25 AM
chuh
i thought the y is pronounced more like the i in "igloo" instead of "uh"...
MOLL er.
SAN sawn, except that it isn't spoken with an emphasis on the SAN; its more like a sing song. with the SAN in a high tone, and the sawn a tone or two lower.
Usually, people want to know how to pronounce Dvorak, too, so her goes:
duh VOR jacques.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 20, 2007, 05:51:04 AM
Rappy, if Mahler had been a painter, how would you pronounce Mahler der Maler?
And if Sviatoslav Richter had been a poet you could have had Richter die Dichter. Richter was, however, a painter
Can someone help me how to be clear with the "Joly" in 'Joly Braga Santos'?
Quote from: Holden on August 20, 2007, 06:05:14 PM
And if Sviatoslav Richter had been a poet you could have had Richter die Dichter. Richter was, however, a painter
And what if he had been a
judge AND a poet?
Quote from: Holden on August 20, 2007, 06:05:14 PM
And if Sviatoslav Richter had been a poet you could have had Richter die Dichter.
Charles Richter, as in the seismologist who came up with the scale, wrote poems too. So we are not without a Richter der Dichter!
When I was first collecting I had a big problem with not composer names, but conductors! :o Still do often.
Tricky ones: papa and son Kleiber are pronounced Kligh-ber, the conductors Järvi are Yair-vee (as in "hair"). And Vänska is Ven-skuh.
Another, Marek Jankowski is Yan-kov-ski. ;)
Christoph von Dohnányi is another tough one. I have heard it in this way, which seems right, as, Doh-yan-ni (with a long O). Except more actually like "Doak" with a really soft "k" and put a small bit of an "n" sound before the "yanni".
Some good ones I used to mess up:
Riccardo Chailly: Shy-ee
Yoel Levi: Lev-ee (not like Levi's jeans, LOL, yes, I was guilty)
Charles Dutoit: Doo-twa
Question: is Pierre Boulez, acceptable as either: Boo-lez or Boo-lay?
Quote from: Greta on August 21, 2007, 02:20:25 AM
Question: is Pierre Boulez, acceptable as either: Boo-lez or Boo-lay?
No. The 'z'
isn't silent.
Quote from: Greta on August 21, 2007, 02:20:25 AM
And Vänska is Ven-skuh.
I thought the Finnish 'Ä' was a sound similar to the 'A' in "cat".
Quote from: Greta on August 21, 2007, 02:20:25 AM
Question: is Pierre Boulez, acceptable as either: Boo-lez or Boo-lay?
as i posted in the lyrics thread, i thought it was "Boo-lay" until I heard some guy say "Boulez" in the recording of the Berio Sinfonia.
Quote from: Holden on August 20, 2007, 06:05:14 PM
And if Sviatoslav Richter had been a poet you could have had Richter die Dichter. Richter was, however, a painter
Richter
der Dichter.
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 21, 2007, 03:10:28 AM
No. The 'z' isn't silent.
Likewise: Berlio
z. Interestingly, both composers were born in the same general region of southeast France.
If anyone wants to know about Turkish words (Turkish singers, composers, musicians, operas etc.), you can ask me ;)
Vänskä
http://www.sci.fi/~kajun/finns/Samples/vanska.wav
The whole list of Finnish surnames:
http://www.sci.fi/~kajun/finns/alllast.htm#8
Thanks for that page! The Finnish names can be really confusing.
Here is the page with musicians:
http://www.sci.fi/~kajun/finns/6.htm
Interesting, the clip there pronounces Saraste exactly as I did at first, Sah-RAH-stay, but I had thought that was wrong because accents are usually on the first syllable so I had changed to SAH-rahs-tuh.
And here is a clip from Minnesota Orchestra of how to pronounce Vänska:
http://mnorch.com/windowsmedia_high/3.osmo.wmv
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 21, 2007, 03:10:28 AM
No. The 'z' isn't silent.
it should be silent but even the french pronounce it mistakely.
Quote from: rappy on August 17, 2007, 11:48:47 AM
Haydn = Hi - den (stress on Hi)
That was the wisdom of a native German ;-)
So do you guys actually say 'dEn'? I, and most of my fellow norwegians, pronounce it the way it's written, with no real vowel between d and n, more of a nasal sound, I guess.. Is that wrong?
No, it's correct. Sorry, that was a bit confusing, I didn't know how to write that nasal sound in English.
Quote from: Corey on August 20, 2007, 08:05:43 AM
How do you pronounce (...) Mieczysław
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 20, 2007, 08:53:25 AM
M yeah chuh swav
Quote from: greg on August 20, 2007, 09:06:45 AM
i thought the y is pronounced more like the i in "igloo" instead of "uh"...
Both are rough approximations of the Polish y. (OTOH, Polish does not have the "uh" sound nor exactly the "i" from "igloo".) The i (as in it, pit, knit, sick etc. but especially: chip, chit and chisel) is closer to the ideal, at least to my ear. You can improve it by smiling wide when you say it.
So I'd go for (it's still rough):
m yeah CHISS suave
While I'm at it, may I mention the fact that Górecki is pronounced: goor-ETZ-key? (Mikołaj is the sequence of words: me, co, why).
Quintett, could you finally put my mind at rest about this:
Is Swann pronounced Swan or Svan?? (I always assumed the former?) :-[
Quote from: quintett op.57 on August 23, 2007, 07:52:59 AM
it should be silent but even the french pronounce it mistakely.
Isn't that because both names come from a region (forgot which one, but I read something about that a long time ago) in which people traditionally pronounced the -z at the end of names? I am trying hard to remember exactly what it was I read, but it was something like that. In any language, personal names don't necessarily follow correct contemporary spelling rules.
Quote from: Norseman on August 23, 2007, 10:03:21 AM
So do you guys actually say 'dEn'? I, and most of my fellow norwegians, pronounce it the way it's written, with no real vowel between d and n, more of a nasal sound, I guess.. Is that wrong?
Not really "dEn", but it is really hard to pronounce "dn" completely without some weak vowel showing up between them (like a very weak, e,i, or ü). So, it sometimes sounds like "Hayden" or "Haydin", but never really stressed like "Hay-dEn".
Quote from: M forever on August 23, 2007, 05:31:21 PM
Isn't that because both names come from a region (forgot which one, but I read something about that a long time ago) in which people traditionally pronounced the -z at the end of names? I am trying hard to remember exactly what it was I read, but it was something like that. In any language, personal names don't necessarily follow correct contemporary spelling rules.
Right. Scroll down to the map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Departments_of_France
Boulez was born in the Loire département (#42), and Berlioz in the adjacent Isère (#38). Anyhow, I've seen Boulez interviewed numerous times (but never Berlioz), and the Z is
always pronounced when he is addressed or introduced.
That's like the name of the Italian fashion designer family Benetton which I always thought doesn't look "really Italian" because the e is missing at the end. The augmentative -one, just like the diminutive -ino (or the plural forms of both) are often found in Italian family names (e.g. "Toscanini", "the little Tuscans"). I thought "Benetton" is a modern varied form of "Benettone", maybe to make it look "more English", "more international". But no. I found out that the e-less ending -on is very common in the region of Veneto (NE Italy) where that family is from, in the spoken language as in written place and family names.
How might one pronounce 'Spohr'?
"Shpohr" with the soft sh at the beginning and a long o (just o, as German doesn't have as many diphtongs as English where o is often pronunced as o-a or o-u). A little like "before". The r at the end is often not really pronounced, definitely not rolled, it sounds like a very short u or a sound, it kind of sounds like "shpoha".
This isn't really a "name that tune" thread, but I thought it was similar enough to warrant going into this forum. About the opera Genoveva by Robert Schumann -- How do you pronounce "Genoveva?"
I'd assume it's "Ge-no-VEE-va", in English: capital letters denote emphasis, with "ge" as in "gerrymandering", or "geranium"! :)
I remember seeing Pierre Boulez on the old Dick Cavett Show once, and Cavett asked him how his surname was pronounced. He said boo LEZ, with the boo just as in boo trying to scare some one, and the emphasis on the LEZ, pronounced as in the first syllable of lesbian.
Quote from: Renfield on November 02, 2007, 08:11:52 PM
I'd assume it's "Ge-no-VEE-va", in English: capital letters denote emphasis, with "ge" as in "gerrymandering", or "geranium"! :)
in German ( and Dutch/Flemish) it is pronounced :
geh - noh - veh - va - with the G as in "Get"
Peter
How do you pronounce:
-'Wiener', as in 'Wiener Philharmoniker'?
-'Chailly', as in the conductor?
As a side note, I think I heard on the radio Chailly pronounced 'Shy-Ee'. Say 'Shy', then say the letter 'E' with no hard attack for the beginnging of 'E', but very soft. Just run the two together. Is that correct?
Wiener = WEE-ner (the 'w' doesn't contain an 'oo' sound; it's a 'thicker' v)
Chailly = shy-YEE
Quote from: Jezetha on December 25, 2007, 01:18:45 PM
Wiener = WEE-ner (the 'w' doesn't contain an 'oo' sound; it's a 'thicker' v)
???
VEEner (but a soft, not hard, "r")
Quote from: longears on December 25, 2007, 01:58:52 PM
???
VEEner (but a soft, not hard, "r")
There
is a slight 'oo' in the w - and the 'Wie' in Wiener doesn't sound the same as 'we' - it's like an unvoiced v...
It's not entirely clear to me either... But it is OK to pronounce the W more as a V ...
But all Germans and Austrians will understand you when you just say WEE - ner Philharmoniker (- Cafe - Kuchen und Gebäck -Tafelspitz - Buchhandlung ...)
Why "a thicker v"? German w is basically the same as English v and it is always voiced. So "Wien" just sounds like "veen". Interestingly though, in the local Viennese dialect, the city's name is pronounced in a quite different way which is extremely hard to transcribe. It is not just the sounds, but the way it is said, very long drawn out (and you also have to make a really bored face when you say it because Viennese people always look extremely bored when they speak), and it sounds somehow like "vee-AHn" with ah as in father but more nasal. So the English name "Vienna" actually comes quite close to the local dialect.
Quote from: Jezetha on December 25, 2007, 02:03:10 PM
There is a slight 'oo' in the w - and the 'Wie' in Wiener doesn't sound the same as 'we' - it's like an unvoiced v...
??? ???
Oh! Maybe that's how you pronounce it in Delft...?
Quote from: longears on December 25, 2007, 02:14:23 PM
??? ???
Oh! Maybe that's how you pronounce it in Delft...?
The Dutch w and the German w are pronounced in the same way...
Really? Nothing in Dutch and German is really pronounced quite the same way. Dutch sounds a lot like German but when you have a serious throat disease or some cheese stuck in your throat and nose (just messing with you, Jezetha ;) ). Seriously though, in German when you say "Wien", there is no oo there. And the w *is* voiced.
Quote from: Jezetha on December 25, 2007, 02:20:36 PM
The Dutch w and the German w are pronounced in the same way...
Ah...that explains part of it. 12tone is Canadian, so to explain to him you would point out that the German "w" is pronounced like an English "v." I still don't get the "oo," however.
"Dutch sounds like German spoken with a serious throat disease
accompanied by some cheese stuck in your throat." LOL!
"Dutch sounds like German spoken with a serious throat disease accompanied by some cheese stuck in your throat."
Apt. ;)
A Dutch writer once said - A Dutchman is simply a German who drinks milk.
As far as that 'oo' is concerned - isn't there in the w-sound, because of the roundedness of the lips, a slight 'oo'?
Quote from: longears on December 25, 2007, 02:33:07 PM
Ah...that explains part of it. 12tone is Canadian, so to explain to him you would point out that the German "w" is pronounced like an English "v."
Unless 12tone is Franco-Canadian, then you would have to say that German w is pronounced like *French* v ... uh ... which is basically the same as English v, I guess. Actually, the use of w as a v sound in German is an abnormality, most languages use v as v (meaning v as in English) which is what the Roman letter v originally was. Dunno why German has the w instead, and v is sometimes pronounced like English v, sometimes like f.
BTW, "Chailly" sound more like sha-EE-yee with the last syllable rather weak though.
Quote from: Jezetha on December 25, 2007, 02:41:29 PM
A Dutch writer once said - A Dutchman is simply a German who drinks milk.
I don't get that. Germans drink milk, too. Explain the joke (if there is one).
Quote from: Jezetha on December 25, 2007, 02:41:29 PM
As far as that 'oo' is concerned - isn't there in the w-sound, because of the roundedness of the lips, a slight 'oo'?
I just tried it several times. There is really no oo.
"Explain the joke (if there is one)."
Well, to us milk is quintessentially Dutch - cows here have more space than humans do. There's more milk flowing through our veins than blood - it seems that the Dutch are generally so tall because of all the milk they drink. So when this Dutch writer says that 'a Dutchman is simply a German who drinks milk', he does two things: he connects the two countries (and remember: anti-German sentiment has been strong in the Netherlands ever since the war), implying that the Dutch and the Germans aren't all that different, AND he alludes to the fact that the Dutch connect Germans with beer, not milk (although the Dutch like their beer, too...).
I know the joke must have evaporated by now, but - here's your explanation...
Quote from: M forever on December 25, 2007, 02:46:23 PM
Unless 12tone is Franco-Canadian, then you would have to say that German w is pronounced like *French* v ... uh ... which is basically the same as English v, I guess. Actually, the use of w as a v sound in German is an abnormality, most languages use v as v (meaning v as in English) which is what the Roman letter v originally was. Dunno why German has the w instead, and v is sometimes pronounced like English v, sometimes like f.
The Roman letter v was originally our u, so w is actually a double v, as it appears in print. In Welsh a single f is pronounced as v, whereas a double ff is used for the softer f.
Now I know how to pronounce 'Myfanwy' correctly...
Yes...but can you pronounce "Genir pawb yn rhydd ac yn gydradd â'i gilydd mewn urddas a hawliau. Fe'u cynysgaeddir â rheswm a chydwybod, a dylai pawb ymddwyn y naill at y llall mewn ysbryd cymodlon?"
Quote from: longears on December 26, 2007, 06:47:20 AM
Yes...but can you pronounce "Genir pawb yn rhydd ac yn gydradd â'i gilydd mewn urddas a hawliau. Fe'u cynysgaeddir â rheswm a chydwybod, a dylai pawb ymddwyn y naill at y llall mewn ysbryd cymodlon?"
Can you pronounce 'Dit vind ik vreselijk lastig om uit te spreken, vooral omdat ik niet weet wat de klankwaarde van alle klinkers en medeklinkers is'?
;)
Is it like "Das find ich sehr schwer zu sprechen, usw," aber mit Milch im Mund? As for the Welsh, I'm not sure even they know how to pronounce it!
"Is it like "Das find ich sehr schwer zu sprechen, usw," aber mit Milch im Mund?"
:)
But yes, translated into German it reads 'Das finde ich schrecklich schwierig auszusprechen, weil ich nicht weiss was der Klangwert der Vokale und Konsonante ist'...
Just stuff a bunch of soda crackers into your mouth and you'll sound like a native speaker in no time!
Ok, is this correct:
Bayreuth = By-root
Tribschen = Tri-shen
Wahnfried = Van-freed
:)
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on December 05, 2008, 12:00:48 PM
Ok, is this correct:
Bayreuth = By-root
More like By-roit or By-roeet (if you're American, think Detroit).
Quote from: Maciek on August 23, 2007, 12:39:10 PM
Both are rough approximations of the Polish y. (OTOH, Polish does not have the "uh" sound nor exactly the "i" from "igloo".) The i (as in it, pit, knit, sick etc. but especially: chip, chit and chisel) is closer to the ideal, at least to my ear. You can improve it by smiling wide when you say it.
So I'd go for (it's still rough):
m yeah CHISS suave
While I'm at it, may I mention the fact that Górecki is pronounced: goor-ETZ-key? (Mikołaj is the sequence of words: me, co, why).
Quintett, could you finally put my mind at rest about this:
Is Swann pronounced Swan or Svan?? (I always assumed the former?) :-[
Maciek, I thought that the "Mie" in Mieczyslaw sounds like the French "mien" (ergo: nasal)...
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on December 05, 2008, 12:00:48 PM
Ok, is this correct:
Bayreuth = By-root
Tribschen = Tri-shen
Wahnfried = Van-freed
:)
Byroit (indeed, Donwyn)
Treepshen (rolling r)
Wahn rhymes with Khan
Maybe someone can explain why some Germans (at least the ones in my circle) have a habit of pronouncing v's like w's, as wery, instead of very. After all, v is no problem for them.
Also one woman in particular used to say the j's as ch's.
ZB
Byroit is correct.
@zanyrabyrd: what exactly is the difference between very and wery?
How about Kaija Saarhiaho?
Sofia Gubaidulina?
Karita Mattila?
Thanks!
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on December 27, 2008, 06:01:20 AM
Maybe someone can explain why some Germans (at least the ones in my circle) have a habit of pronouncing v's like w's, as wery, instead of very. After all, v is no problem for them.
Also one woman in particular used to say the j's as ch's.
ZB
Have you ever thought that this is the way those certain letters are pronounced in their native language? ???
Quote from: Mr. Darcy on December 27, 2008, 09:29:34 AM
How about Kaija Saarhiaho?
Karita Mattila?
Thanks!
Kaee (as in "kite" or "hi")-ya Saah-ri-aho
The "aa" is slightly drawn out and the "r" is rolled.
Kah-reeta Maht-tillah
There should be a slight break between the two Ts in Mattila.
(Correct me if I'm wrong :D)
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on December 27, 2008, 12:59:56 PM
Have you ever thought that this is the way those certain letters are pronounced in their native language? ???
Sure,
v is usually pronounced like an
f, (verboten), unless it is from a foreign word like "
vase", that I assume would not be pronounced like
wase. And
j is said like a
y, as in the coming month, "
Yanuar".
ZB
Quote from: rappy on December 27, 2008, 07:17:04 AM
Byroit is correct.
@zamyrabyrd: what exactly is the difference between very and wery?
Not wery much, wappy...
(echoes of Elmer Fudd: "Oh you CWAZY WABBIT!!")
Gubaidulina?
Goo-by-doo-leena?
You got it! Perfect! 8)
What about Moeran?
Scelsi- Sellsea, Chelsea or Seltzer Water?
Quote from: G$ on January 01, 2009, 08:15:50 PM
Scelsi- Sellsea, Chelsea or Seltzer Water?
;D
None of those. It's
Shelsi...
Scelsi sells seashells...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 02, 2009, 12:06:52 AM
;D
None of those. It's Shelsi...
One of my favorite composer names to say out loud:
Ja-keen-to Shel-seeI'm also fond of
Gee-yahm Doo-fey and
Vitt-oldt Lu-to-swaff-ski :D
And don't forget that the 'Ralph' in Vaughan Williams's name is pronounced 'Rafe', as is the case with the actor Ralph Fiennes.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 02, 2009, 03:36:51 PM
And don't forget that the 'Ralph' in Vaughan Williams's name is pronounced 'Rafe', as is the case with the actor Ralph Fiennes.
And the Vaughan pronounced "Vaughn", like the (rather lower-calibre) actor Vince Vaughn.
Completely off-topic, but it just struck me: is
Joseph Fiennes related to Ralph? :o
Quote from: Renfield on January 02, 2009, 03:49:01 PM
And the Vaughan pronounced "Vaughn", like the (rather lower-calibre) actor Vince Vaughn.
Completely off-topic, but it just struck me: is Joseph Fiennes related to Ralph? :o
They're brothers, IIRC. Ralph is the better actor IMO.
Quote from: Corey on January 02, 2009, 07:44:59 PM
Ralph is the better actor IMO.
By far! Thanks, the question just hit me, and I felt like asking instead of looking it up, for a change. :)
Is Strauss "strows"? (the trow part rhymes with "cow")
Quote from: imperfection on January 04, 2009, 10:09:36 AM
Is Strauss "strows"? (the trow part rhymes with "cow")
Yes.
Most people I'm sure do a competently teutonic W/Vagner.
But do you also pronounce 'Richard' in a German way ??? ?
Quote from: Novi on January 04, 2009, 12:47:29 PM
Most people I'm sure do a competently teutonic W/Vagner.
But do you also pronounce 'Richard' in a German way ??? ?
It's a bit pedantic to pronounce
Richard in the German way when you're not German. Although I can (being Dutch, and Dutch being a sister language of German), I never do. I pronounce
Richard in the Dutch way (sounds like
Reeshart, short
ee, short
art), with audible r's...)
Thanks, Jezetha. Here's another one: how do you say Haas as in Robert Haas? Haas is actually my music teacher's last name, but he told us to say it with an American English pronunciation: Haws (rhymes with Jaws). I'm sure that's not the way you would pronounce it in German, right? He's German Canadian btw.
Quote from: imperfection on January 04, 2009, 01:42:54 PM
Thanks, Jezetha. Here's another one: how do you say Haas as in Robert Haas? Haas is actually my music teacher's last name, but he told us to say it with an American English pronunciation: Haws (rhymes with Jaws). I'm sure that's not the way you would pronounce it in German, right? He's German Canadian btw.
Haas rhymes with (British)
pass (long a). Or think of the Tibetan capital Lhasa...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 04, 2009, 01:35:40 PM
I pronounce Richard in the Dutch way (sounds like Reeshart, short ee, short art), with audible r's...)
But
Jezetha, where did the s come from in your pronunciation of Richard? I know there is no English equivalent for the German ch, I am sure you can come up with a solution to this one!
Ich verlasse mich auf Dich! ;D
I pronounce Richard "Ree-(c)hard", in approximation of what I think is the German pronunciation. Correct me if I'm wrong!
Generally, if I can approximate the proper pronunciation of non-English words, I prefer it to viciously anglicizing them; unless it's beyond my phonological means. I even go as far as to pronounce "proviso" as "pro-vee-zo", versus "pro-vie-zo", and so on (which is technically mistaken).
Incidentally, it struck me the other day that I'm unsure how many are aware of Xenakis being actually pronounced "Ksenakis", versus "Zenakis". (The italic "a" indicating where the word is intoned, as above.)
You are as close to the correct 'Richard' as most people usually get, unless they speak Arabic! That is where you find the throat-clearing ch. I think Hebrew also has the ch as in La Chaim. My apology to any Hebrew speaker here if I am mistaken!
Proviso is 'proveeso' - Latin! - not as I have heard it pronounced 'provaiso'. ::)
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 04, 2009, 05:21:56 PM
You are as close to the correct 'Richard' as most people usually get, unless they speak Arabic! That is where you find the throat-clearing ch. I think Hebrew also has the ch as in La Chaim. My apology to any Hebrew speaker here if I am mistaken!
Proviso is 'proveeso' - Latin! - not as I have heard it pronounced 'provaiso'. ::)
Ah, good to hear. Thank you. :)
As for "proviso", I do think "provaiso" is an acceptable pronunciation in English-speaking contests, but I personally use it no more than I use "pryema fayshie" - that is,
never. Still, you're right about the stress, it probably has to be on the "i".
Cato? 8)
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 04, 2009, 04:25:20 PM
But Jezetha, where did the s come from in your pronunciation of Richard? I know there is no English equivalent for the German ch, I am sure you can come up with a solution to this one!
Ich verlasse mich auf Dich! ;D
Weiss ich doch, du kühne Maid... ;)
The Dutch pronounce
Richard with a French
ch... As I said, I know how to pronounce
Richard the German way (and remember - the Dutch language is one of the most guttural, next to Hebrew and Arabic!), but it sounds too pedantic to my fellow Dutchmen, so I make a concession there...
Quote from: Jezetha on January 04, 2009, 01:35:40 PM
It's a bit pedantic to pronounce Richard in the German way when you're not German. Although I can (being Dutch, and Dutch being a sister language of German), I never do. I pronounce Richard in the Dutch way (sounds like Reeshart, short ee, short art), with audible r's...)
Cool - thanks! It was only recently that I heard the 'guttural' pronunciation of Richard, and thought, oh bugger, have I been doing it wrong all these years ??? :P.
Quote from: Renfield on January 04, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
Incidentally, it struck me the other day that I'm unsure how many are aware of Xenakis being actually pronounced "Ksenakis", versus "Zenakis". (The italic "a" indicating where the word is intoned, as above.)
Thanks for that,
Renfield. A timely post, given that I've recently acquired my first Xenakis disk and had no idea how to pronounce the name :).
Quote from: Renfield on January 04, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
I pronounce Richard "Ree-(c)hard", in approximation of what I think is the German pronunciation. Correct me if I'm wrong!
The
i should be as short as in
to rip. "Chard" sounds similiar to "chart", but don't pronounce ch like t-ch.
Quote from: Renfield on January 04, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
I pronounce Richard "Ree-(c)hard", in approximation of what I think is the German pronunciation. Correct me if I'm wrong!
You can pronounce Richard any which way you wish....just make sure that the next word out of your mouth is
WAGNER 0:) 0:) 0:)............. ;)!
With regards to the pronunciation of Wagner I have seen 2 variations: (VOGNER I read this somewhere not sure where??) or (VAHGNER) I wonder if our German speaking GMG members can clarify this further??
marvin
Ok, here's two:
Marie d'Agoult = Marie D'go
Winterreise = Vinter-ry-see
???
Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on January 05, 2009, 02:16:47 PM
Ok, here's two:
Marie d'Agoult = Marie D'go
Winterreise = Vinter-ry-see
???
In this case you can really say : Marie Dagoolt
and Corey is correct with Vinter -raih-zuh ( even if not all Germans will pronounce that W really sharply as a V...)
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2009, 02:06:32 PM
You can pronounce Richard any which way you wish....just make sure that the next word out of your mouth is WAGNER 0:) 0:) 0:)............. ;)!
With regards to the pronunciation of Wagner I have seen 2 variations: (VOGNER I read this somewhere not sure where??) or (VAHGNER) I wonder if our German speaking GMG members can clarify this further??
marvin
VAHGNER is correct.
But I once saw a documentary about Wagner, where a Swiss lady showed the filmmaker around in Wagner's house in Triebschen. She spoke with a strong accent, and talked about '(der) Wockner'...
Of all European languages, Dutch is my stumbler. So please:
Kujiken
for starters... :)
My guess is KUY-kin, but I suspect I am not even close. :-\
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Geminiani Opus3 - Baroque Orchestra of Montreal - Geminiani Concerto grosso #2 in g Op 3 3rd mvmt
Quote from: Renfield on January 04, 2009, 04:42:37 PM
Generally, if I can approximate the proper pronunciation of non-English words, I prefer it to viciously anglicizing them; unless it's beyond my phonological means. I even go as far as to pronounce "proviso" as "pro-vee-zo", versus "pro-vie-zo", and so on (which is technically mistaken).
I find myself doing the same, striding the middle between a pedantic pronunciation and blatantly Anglicizing everything. Example: "Symphonie Fantastique" said with English vowels rather than the two nasals in the beginnings of both words. "Fantastic Symphony" doesn't cut it. Also Italian words repeatedly used in music--
coloratura, allegro, etc. sound funny or rather out of place when an effort is made to switch back and forth from language to another.
I wonder what non-English speakers do...
ZB
Quote from: marvinbrown on January 05, 2009, 02:06:32 PM
You can pronounce Richard any which way you wish....just make sure that the next word out of your mouth is WAGNER 0:) 0:) 0:)............. ;)!
With regards to the pronunciation of Wagner I have seen 2 variations: (VOGNER I read this somewhere not sure where??) or (VAHGNER) I wonder if our German speaking GMG members can clarify this further??
marvin
When you say Wagner, you're also not supposed to roll your tongue on the "r", as they do when Americans/Canadians pronounce almost everything with an -er ending. Therefore, instead of "vAHgnur", Wagner should sound like "vAHgnah". The capitalized letters indicate the stressed syllable. :)
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2009, 04:34:45 PM
Of all European languages, Dutch is my stumbler. So please:
Kujiken
for starters... :)
My guess is KUY-kin, but I suspect I am not even close. :-\
8)
----------------
Listening to:
Geminiani Opus3 - Baroque Orchestra of Montreal - Geminiani Concerto grosso #2 in g Op 3 3rd mvmt
It's KUIJKEN, btw... The UI(J) sounds the same as the French in
l'oeuil, if you know that. It's a sound only the French and the Dutch seem to have in common. The KEN part is easy - it rhymes with 'an'...
Quote from: imperfection on January 05, 2009, 09:00:00 PM
When you say Wagner, you're also not supposed to roll your tongue on the "r", as they do when Americans/Canadians pronounce almost everything with an -er ending. Therefore, instead of "vAHgnur", Wagner should sound like "vAHgnah". The capitalized letters indicate the stressed syllable. :)
The last time I checked, Germans pronounce the final "r". This is not as abovementioned trilled "r" as in Italian but more gutteral as in French, a bit further front. Also, I hear that the "r" differs in according to area as Swiss, Western Germany (closer to France) and Austrian. Maybe someone can illuminate. ???
Come to think of it, I knew a German speaker who used to drop final r's, hmmn....
ZB
Quote from: zamyrabyrd on January 05, 2009, 10:43:06 PM
The last time I checked, Germans pronounce the final "r". This is not as abovementioned trilled "r" as in Italian but more gutteral as in French, a bit further front. Also, I hear that the "r" differs in according to area as Swiss, Western Germany (closer to France) and Austrian. Maybe someone can illuminate. ???
Come to think of it, I knew a German speaker who used to drop final r's, hmmn....
ZB
'High German' speakers drop the final r. But let the native Germans here comment...
QuoteWhen you say Wagner, you're also not supposed to roll your tongue on the "r", as they do when Americans/Canadians pronounce almost everything with an -er ending. Therefore, instead of "vAHgnur", Wagner should sound like "vAHgnah". The capitalized letters indicate the stressed syllable.
This is important and correct.
AH! But there is the multitude of native Germans suffering from a very common speech impediment:
We can not pronounce the letter r at all! I say 'we' because my brother and I are one of those! For me, the letter is simply a noise way back in the throat. For consolation, this 'noise' is the way the Danish people pronounce their r! There is justice after all! ;D
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 06, 2009, 06:56:02 AM
AH! But there is the multitude of native Germans suffering from a very common speech impediment:
We can not pronounce the letter r at all! I say 'we' because my brother and I are one of those! For me, the letter is simply a noise way back in the throat. For consolation, this 'noise' is the way the Danish people pronounce their r! There is justice after all! ;D
In singing, final r's in German are pronounced, so this might be cause for confusion. Any rumble in the back of the throat (as with French r's as well) need to come forward.
ZB
How about Herreweghe?
Quote from: donwyn on January 07, 2009, 05:39:31 PM
How about Herreweghe?
Tricky.
But it sounds like
HAIRawayghe, with the 'gh' like the
ch in Loch Ness. That
HAIRa bit is short and clipped.
Tricky indeed! Thank you. :-*
I don't dare to ask how one is supposed to voice the name of your Amsterdam airport - has nothing to do with music! ::)
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 08, 2009, 10:07:13 AM
Tricky indeed! Thank you. :-*
I don't dare to ask how one is supposed to voice the name of your Amsterdam airport - has nothing to do with music! ::)
Easy. ;)
Schiphol is literally 'ship's hole', because of the many ships that foundered there (before the 17th century reclaimed it).
Schip has the same
ch as in Loch Ness. And
hol rhymes with
trawl, but shorter.
O, and it's accented on the second syllable.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 07, 2009, 11:38:42 PM
Tricky.
But it sounds like HAIRawayghe, with the 'gh' like the ch in Loch Ness. That HAIRa bit is short and clipped.
Thanks, Jezetha.
Tricky indeed.
Thanks, Jezetha! :-*
Whenever there is sch in a Dutch word, I assume it is safe to drop the s and pronounce the ch as in Loch Ness, hopefully none of those annoying exceptions! ::)
Vagn Holmboe?
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 09, 2009, 06:40:54 AM
Thanks, Jezetha! :-*
Whenever there is sch in a Dutch word, I assume it is safe to drop the s and pronounce the ch as in Loch Ness, hopefully none of those annoying exceptions! ::)
Should the
s be dropped, really?
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 09, 2009, 06:40:54 AM
Thanks, Jezetha! :-*
Whenever there is sch in a Dutch word, I assume it is safe to drop the s and pronounce the ch as in Loch Ness, hopefully none of those annoying exceptions! ::)
NO!
Sch is a combination of an s + ch. So 'schip' sounds like
ship but with an added guttural...
That's how I had understood you, thanks, Johan!
(Separately: delighted that you like Timbrel & Dance!)
Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2009, 06:45:01 AM
Vagn Holmboe?
Vagn rhymes with
town. Holm is short (you pronounce the l, so it doesn't rhyme with
home). And the 'boe' part is like a short
boo.
Quote from: Jezetha on January 09, 2009, 06:52:56 AM
Vagn rhymes with town. Holm is short (you pronounce the l, so it doesn't rhyme with home). And the 'boe' part is like a short boo.
Dank je wel!
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on December 27, 2008, 12:59:56 PM
Have you ever thought that this is the way those certain letters are pronounced in their native language? ???
The last time I looked, the v in German was pronounced as an f is in English. None of the Germans of my acquaintance pronounce the v as a w, although a few Russians do.
Quote from: Bunny on January 12, 2009, 07:04:02 AM
None of the Germans of my acquaintance pronounce the v as a w
They all probadly speak Yidd, not German.
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on January 17, 2009, 06:05:45 PM
They all probadly speak Yidd, not German.
No, they don't speak Yidd, which is properly termed Yiddish in English. They are not Jewish, so why would they speak Yiddish? They are ordinary, English speaking Germans, one of whom teaches German on the university level. Just listen to Heidi Klum on tv calling a Volkswagen a "folksvahgen." In Belgium a w may be pronounced as it is in England, but I assure you a W in England is not the same as a W in Germany. A V in Germany is not the hard V that it is in England. It is a softer, unaspirated "f" sound. For that matter a V in Spain is not the same as a V in France; it is closer to an unaspirated B.
You probably just don't have hearing that is acute enough to hear the differences, which probably means that you have an execrable accent in any language other than your native one.