You know the drill, top ten operas. 10 points to 1 point.
GO!
10: Salome
9: Marriage of Figaro
8: Don Giovanni
7: Wozzeck
6: The Ring Cycle Tristan und Isolde
5: The Trojans
4: Blue Beard's Castle
3: La Traviata
2: Turandot
1: Elektra
(First time doing this, so I do NOT know the drill. The only thing to do is to post first!)
Opera isn't my thing at all, but I like enough to make a list, so...
+10 Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle
+9 Ravel: L'enfant et les sortilèges
+8 Berg: Wozzeck
+7 Janáček: Káťa Kabanová
+6 Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande
+5 Szymanowski: King Roger
+4 Dvořák: Rusalka
+3 Wagner: Das Rheingold
+2 Shostakovich: Lady Macbeth of the Mtsensk District
+1 Strauss: Elektra
Edit: Man, I forgot Britten's Death in Venice! I really admire this opera a lot. (Hangs head in shame.) :-[
Quote from: springrite on September 28, 2017, 06:19:41 PM
10: Salome
9: Marriage of Figaro
8: Don Giovanni
7: Wozzeck
6: The Ring Cycle
5: The Trojans
4: Blue Beard's Castle
3: La Traviata
2: Turandot
1: Elektra
(First time doing this, so I do NOT know the drill. The only thing to do is to post first!)
You did GREAT for your first drill! ;)
Great list, but a question I should've asked before...The Ring Cycle as one? Or separate the four? I personally would say separate, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 28, 2017, 06:34:36 PM
You did GREAT for your first drill! ;)
Great list, but a question I should've asked before...The Ring Cycle as one? Or separate the four? I personally would say separate, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
I don't consider
The Ring one opera. It's a cycle of four very different operas.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 28, 2017, 06:34:36 PM
You did GREAT for your first drill! ;)
Great list, but a question I should've asked before...The Ring Cycle as one? Or separate the four? I personally would say separate, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.
I was obviously being lazy (and a bit of cheating as well). If I had to separate them, I'd give the Wagnerian spot to Tristan und Isolde.
10. Wozzeck
9. Tristan und Isolde
8. Les Troyens
7. Boris Godunov
6. Le nozze di Figaro
5. Lulu
4. Parsifal
3. Falstaff
2. Kat'a Kabanova
1. La Boheme
Like John not my main interest but with 10 points at the top and 1 at the bottom, with only the top spot being an easy pick:
Threepenny Opera
Cosi fan Tutte
Magic Flute
Sweeney Todd (SS)
Facing Goya (Nyman)
Four Saints in Three Acts (VT)
Giulio Cesare (GFH)
Ring
Orfeo Ed Eurydice (CWG)
Castor et Pollux (JPR)
Is voting the Ring allowed btw?
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo - 10
Berg: Wozzeck - 9
Wagner: Die Walkure - 8
Mozart: The Magic Flute - 7
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas - 6
Strauss: Die Frau Ohne Schatten - 5
Wagner: Parsifal - 4
Rameau: Castor et Pollux - 3
Britten: Death in Venice - 2
Orff: Der Mond - 1
Quote from: Ken B on September 28, 2017, 06:55:56 PM
Like John not my main interest but with 10 points at the top and 1 at the bottom, with only the top spot being an easy pick:
Threepenny Opera
Cosi fan Tutte
Magic Flute
Sweeney Todd (SS)
Facing Goya (Nyman)
Four Saints in Three Acts (VT)
Giulio Cesare (GFH)
Ring
Orfeo Ed Eurydice (CWG)
Castor et Pollux (JPR)
Is voting the Ring allowed btw?
Great list, Ken. I almost had
Threepenny in mine, but was beat out by a moon. And you can vote for the individual operas in the ring.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 28, 2017, 06:59:35 PM
Monteverdi: L'Orfeo - 10
Berg: Wozzeck - 9
Wagner: Die Walkure - 8
Mozart: The Magic Flute - 7
Purcell: Dido and Aeneas - 6
Strauss: Die Frau Ohne Schatten - 5
Wagner: Parsifal - 4
Rameau: Castor et Pollux - 3
Britten: Death in Venice - 2
Orff: Der Mond - 1
Ohh. I forgot Der Mond! I amend my list. Please drop the Rameau and the single point goes to Der Mond.
Quote from: Ken B on September 28, 2017, 07:04:08 PM
Ohh. I forgot Der Mond! I amend my list. Please drop the Rameau and the single point goes to Der Mond.
I commented on Threepenny without even noticing we chose the same Rameau opera. 8)
What about the Ring opera?
Ken, there can only be one ring to rule them all.
One per composer, otherwise my list would have been made by Wagner's & Mozart's operas only - almost
10 Der Ring (or Die Walküre)
9 Le nozze di Figaro
8 Falstaff
7 Wozzeck
6 L'Orfeo
5 Turandot
4 Boris Godunov
3 Pelléas et Mélisande
2 Salome
1 Carmen
Do I really have to split the Ring ???
Also not the biggest opera buff, but I'll give it a go:
10 - Glass: Einstein on the Beach
9 - Saariaho: L'amour de loin
8 - Ligeti: Le Grand Macabre
7 - Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
6 - Verdi: Otello
5 - Wagner: Der Ring/Götterdämmerung
4 - Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle
3 - Adams: Nixon in China
2 - Romitelli: An Index of Metals
1 - Messiaen: Saint François d'Assise
10 Mozart - Le Nozze di Figaro
09 Bizet - Carmen
08 Weber - Freischutz
07 Rossini - Il viaggio a Reims
06 Bellini - La sonnambula
05 Donizetti - Don Pasquale
04 Handel - Rinaldo
03 Haydn - La fedelta premiata
02 Rameau - Les Indes galantes
01 Strauss - Der Rosenkavalier
10 Schreker: Die Gezeichneten
09 Zemlinsky: Eine florentinische Tragödie
08 Janáček: Jenůfa
07 Beethoven: Fidelio
06 Britten: Peter Grimes
05 Puccini: Turandot
04 Szymanowski: Król Roger
03 Wagner: Der Ring des Nibelungen (or Die Walküre)
02 Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
01 Mozart: Die Zauberflöte
1 opera per composer
10 Donizetti Lucia di Lamermoor
9 Wagner Die Meistersingers
8 Debussy, Pelleas et Melisande
7 Mozart Don Giovanni
6 Puccini, Turandot
5 Mussorgsky, Boris Godunov
4 Bellini, I Puritani
3 Bizet, Carmen
2 Gounod, Faust
1 Verdi, Rigoletto
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 28, 2017, 07:32:33 PM
What about the Ring opera? Ken, there can only be one ring to rule them all.
So on the symphony thread we have to pick a movement?
10 - Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro
9 - Berg: Wozzeck
8 - Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
7 - Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
6 - Mozart: Cosi fan tutte
5 - Debussy: Pelleas et Melisande
4 - Schoenberg: Moses und Aron
3 - Janacek: From the House of the Dead
2 - Wagner: Die Walkure
1 - Mozart: Idomeneo
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:19:41 AM
So on the symphony thread we have to pick a movement?
I said earlier in the thread I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, and Wagner did intend them to be performed together.
Anyone else here want to offer their opinion? It's up for discussion and I don't plan on tallying votes for a while.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2017, 05:32:23 AM
I said earlier in the thread I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, and Wagner did intend them to be performed together.
Anyone else here want to offer their opinion? It's up for discussion and I don't plan on tallying votes for a while.
The four works can be and are performed separately. Each one has its own distinct aesthetic and they were not written without any break. There is no doubt that they are intimately connected and that each one develops the motifs presented in the preceding ones, but we can gain a fuller understanding of them if we recognize their differences as well as their continuity.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2017, 05:32:23 AM
I said earlier in the thread I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, and Wagner did intend them to be performed together.
Anyone else here want to offer their opinion? It's up for discussion and I don't plan on tallying votes for a while.
One argument, aside from artistic unity, is that otherwise we get a distorted result due to vote splitting. Walkure will get the most but the others will all catch one or more.
Mahlerian's argument is refuted by the leitmotif structure. Also by Wagner's clear intent as expressed in setting up Bayreuth and limiting performances of the early ones beyond what was financially necessary until the last was completed.
Here goes:
Wagner Parsifal (10 points)
Wagner Meistersinger (9 points)
Mozart Don Giovanni (8 points)
Debussy Pelléas et Mélisande (7 points)
Mozart Le Nozze di Figaro (6 points)
Verdi Falstaff (5 points)
Berg Lulu (4 points)
Berlioz Les Troyens (3 points)
Monteverdi L'Orfeo (2 points)
Enescu Oedipe (1 point)
Guys, just vote for Parsifal, and the whole Ring problem (is it one opera , is it four--an almost theological discussion) disappears... ;)
10 Mozart: Don Giovanni
9 Beethoven: Fidelio
8 Purcell: Dido & Aeneas
7 Wagner: Tristan
6 Mozart: Figaro
5 Mozart: Magic Flute
4 Handel: Alcina
3 Verdi: Rigoletto
2 Weber: Freischütz
1 Puccini: Tosca
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:38:44 AMMahlerian's argument is refuted by the leitmotif structure.
How? I think I mentioned that part.
Quote from: ritter on September 29, 2017, 05:41:16 AMGuys, just vote for Parsifal, and the whole Ring problem (is it one opera , is it four--an almost theological discussion) disappears... ;)
I will admit that I seriously considered this...
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 29, 2017, 05:43:55 AM
How? I think I mentioned that part.
All your arguments can be applied to the Goldberg Variations or the Diabelli Variations. They were written over time, perforce (and I'm keen to learn of any extended piece which was completed in an instant or even an hour). Each variation can be performed or contemplated alone to understand their differences and the continuity. Or what about Glass's music in 12 parts? Or what about Brahms's first symphony, which he worked on over years. That's no reason to not see it as one piece.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:53:56 AM
All your arguments can be applied to the Goldberg Variations or the Diabelli Variations. They were written over time, perforce (and I'm keen to learn of any extended piece which was completed in an instant or even an hour). Each variation can be performed or contemplated alone to understand their differences and the continuity.
I was not saying that the Ring cycle was written over the course of a few years and therefore it's not a single work, I'm saying that it's a collection of related works, and that other works were written in-between the parts (specifically between the first part of Siegfried and the last parts of the cycle).
The Goldberg Variations may be a poor example, because Bach did not likely imagine that anyone would play through the set at a single sitting, much as we may think it gains from such treatment.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:53:56 AMOr what about Glass's music in 12 parts?
Again, written as a cycle of separate works, and easily and satisfyingly performed separately.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:53:56 AMOr what about Brahms's first symphony, which he worked on over years.
The time was not the main issue, but the separability and individuality of the parts. A symphonic movement cannot as satisfyingly be performed on its own, and all of the successful symphonies I know have a single overriding aesthetic that binds them together. The various operas of the Ring cycle are quite disparate in their musical style, despite shared material, and are each satisfying in their own right.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:53:56 AMThat's no reason to not see it as one piece.
Wait, I thought you said the leitmotif structure disproved my argument. You didn't say how that was.
::) Oh jeez...guys can we not argue about whether Wagner's Ring is a single work or a collection of works? I mean surely you guys can take this conversation to another thread? (Hint: the Wagner composer thread.)
Let's keep those lists coming GMGers!
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 05:38:44 AM
Walkure will get the most but the others will all catch one or more.
I am guilty of this,
Die Walkure is 3rd on my list, if I changed it to the Ring Cycle it would go lower.
I did just search for Top Opera Lists online and I only saw Ring Cycle listed, not individuals.
10 to 1:
Richard Strauss: Elektra
Arnold Schoenberg: Erwartung
Arnold Schoenberg: Moses und Aron
Sergei Taneyev: The Oresteia
Ferruccio Busoni: Doctor Faust
Richard Wagner: Goetterdaemmerung
Richard Wagner: Tristan und Isolde
Paul Hindemith: Cardillac
Nicolai Rimsky-Korsakov: The Invisible City of Kitezh and the Maiden Fevroniya
Modest Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov
On another day, the order in the list could change, and possibly Die Walkuere, or Der Freischuetz, or Tsar Saltan, or Simplicius Simplicissimus could appear! 0:)
10. Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen
9. Janáček: From the House of the Dead
8. Ravel: L'enfant et les Sortilèges
7. Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
6. Berlioz: Les Troyens
5. Berg: Wozzeck
4. Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
3. Britten: Death in Venice
2. Rameau: Castor & Pollux
1. Szymanowski: Król Roger
10 - Don Giovanni
nothing else, as it would wind up adding to someone else's vote & counting against Don Giovanni in the final tally
QuoteWait, I thought you said the leitmotif structure disproved my argument. You didn't say how that was.
It's surely a powerful reason to see the thing as a united piece. I thought that was clear enough when I used the example of the Goldberg variations. Maybe I should have been clearer, so I'll try again. Why is the GV one thing in a way that the WTC is not? Because of the musical coherence, principally the shared thematic material, and the composers' intent. We can apply your arguments to the Goldbergs, and deduce we need to chunk it into 32 pieces on the favorite keyboard thread. But that is surely wrong. That suggests your arguments, which are about things
other than musical unity and composers's intent, don't really work.
ADDED. It occurs to me that The Musical Offering might be an even better example for my argument. It even varies the forces used. The pieces can be played alone, but it is clearly one thing, intended as one (massive) thing.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 10:54:58 AM
It's surely a powerful reason to see the thing as a united piece. I thought that was clear enough when I used the example of the Goldberg variations.
I agree that the cycle is united. That doesn't make it a single opera. Do we want to include Stockhausen's Licht as a single opera as well? It is also based on a few kinds of material that structure the whole 7-work cycle, and it has never once been performed in its entirety.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 10:54:58 AMMaybe I should have been clearer, so I'll try again. Why is the GV one thing in a way that the WTC is not? Because of the musical coherence, principally the shared thematic material, and the composers' intent. We can apply your arguments to the Goldbergs, and deduce we need to chunk it into 32 pieces on the favorite keyboard thread.
No, we can't. The Goldberg Variations are aesthetically unified in a way that the four operas of the Ring cycle are not, and this was my principal argument against considering them a single opera.
For that matter, why 32 pieces? Why not include the canons, which are related to the material and were written alongside the variations? If you say "because they don't fit in aesthetically with the rest," then this is at least a partial concession to the point I was trying to make.
Quote from: Ken B on September 29, 2017, 10:54:58 AMBut that is surely wrong. That suggests your arguments, which are about things other than musical unity and composers's intent, don't really work.
Musical unity and composer intent are exactly the source of my arguments. I agree that Wagner meant for the operas to be performed in succession. This doesn't mean in itself that he considered them a single opera. He drafted each score and libretto separately as his conception changed, and the style of the music changed noticeably over time.
QuoteDo we want to include Stockhausen's Licht as a single opera as well?
I'm willing to give that a 10 on the Least Favourite Operas thread!
10 Norma
9 Turandot
8 Walküre
7 Don Giovanni
6 Aida
5 Lohengrin
4 From the House of the Dead
3 Duke Bluebeard's Castle
2 Pique Dame
1 Il Trovatore
+10 Le nozze di Figaro
+9 Luci mie traditrici (Salvatore Sciarrino.... no one else will vote for this so I'm giving it lots of points)
+8 Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
+7 Così fan tutte
+6 Don Giovanni
+5 Boris Godunov (original version preferably)
+4 Mittwoch aus Licht
+3 Die Soldaten
+2 Das Rheingold
+1 Le grand macabre
I don't listen to opera a lot.
Bonus list, musical edition:
+10 Fiddler on the Roof
+9 West Side Story
+8 My Fair Lady
+7 1776
+6 A Chorus Line
+5 Guys & Dolls
+4 Avenue Q
+3 Rent
+2 The Producers
+1 Les Miz
Quote from: amw on September 29, 2017, 07:48:08 PM
+10 Le nozze di Figaro
+9 Luci miei traditrici (Salvatore Sciarrino.... no one else will vote for this so I'm giving it lots of points)
+8 Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
+7 Così fan tutte
+6 Don Giovanni
+5 Boris Godunov (original version preferably)
+4 Mittwoch aus Licht
+3 Die Soldaten
+2 Das Rheingold
+1 Le grand macabre
I don't listen to opera a lot.
Bonus list, musical edition:
+10 Fiddler on the Roof
+9 West Side Story
+8 My Fair Lady
+7 1776
+6 A Chorus Line
+5 Guys & Dolls
+4 Avenue Q
+3 Rent
+2 The Producers
+1 Les Miz
Very happy you've done so, I also had thought to include 'Luci
mie traditrici' (not miei) in my list. If not in my first ten, surely in my first fifteen.
I had thought adding one opera from the Licht cycle as well, maybe not Mittwoch but Samstag,
Thanks, I can't spell lol
It was between Mittwoch and Donnerstag for me. I picked Mittwoch because it has helicopters.
Quote from: North Star on September 29, 2017, 07:55:40 AM
10. Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen
9. Janáček: From the House of the Dead
8. Ravel: L'enfant et les Sortilèges
7. Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
6. Berlioz: Les Troyens
5. Berg: Wozzeck
4. Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
3. Britten: Death in Venice
2. Rameau: Castor & Pollux
1. Szymanowski: Król Roger
If Janáček
wasn't on your list, I think I'd seriously start to question even my own choices. ;) A wonderful thing that good taste has prevailed! :D
Quote from: amw on September 29, 2017, 08:40:32 PM
Thanks, I can't spell lol
Don't worry, I'have just pointed this out not to be picky but because it's a very common mistake on that title...
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 29, 2017, 08:46:54 PM
If Janáček wasn't on your list, I think I'd seriously start to question even my own choices. ;) A wonderful thing that good taste has prevailed! :D
Oops, I forgot Janacek too...I'm going back to add it. Points haven't been tallied yet anyway, right?
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 30, 2017, 11:16:59 AM
Oops, I forgot Janacek too...I'm going back to add it. Points haven't been tallied yet anyway, right?
I recall Greg preferring you to inform of changes but keeping the original list intact.
Quote from: North Star on September 30, 2017, 11:22:08 AM
I recall Greg preferring you to inform of changes but keeping the original list intact.
Okay, I'll detail the change:
3 - Britten: Turn of the Screw -> 3 - Janacek: From the House of the Dead
Quote from: Mahlerian on September 30, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
Okay, I'll detail the change:
3 - Britten: Turn of the Screw -> 3 - Janacek: From the House of the Dead
Thus exploding decades of economic theory!
Quote from: Ken B on September 30, 2017, 11:49:03 AM
Thus exploding decades of economic theory!
* chortle *
Quote from: Ken B on September 30, 2017, 11:49:03 AM
Thus exploding decades of economic theory!
It's my head that explodes.
And I haven't started tallying up points yet so we are all good. But I'm still stressing out over the Ring Cycle decision, going to need some beer to help me through this dark time.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 30, 2017, 01:21:06 PM
It's my head that explodes.
And I haven't started tallying up points yet so we are all good. But I'm still stressing out over the Ring Cycle decision, going to need some beer to help me through this dark time.
Ah yes, nothing like a case of beer to help with counting things. 0:) :laugh:
Opera is a serious blind spot for me, and this thread reminds me that I need to remedy that ASAP! I recently started listening to Wagner's Die Meistersinger and have enjoyed it so far.
Quote from: kyjo on September 30, 2017, 02:03:41 PM
Opera is a serious blind spot for me, and this thread reminds me that I need to remedy that ASAP! I recently started listening to Wagner's Die Meistersinger and have enjoyed it so far.
Well the place to start is with my list! I'm not a big opera person either, and most of my choices are non-opera operas. And none are by Delius ;)
Quote from: kyjo on September 30, 2017, 02:03:41 PM
Opera is a serious blind spot for me, and this thread reminds me that I need to remedy that ASAP! I recently started listening to Wagner's Die Meistersinger and have enjoyed it so far.
Hmmm.. You like challenges, don't you? :P
Any more participants? I will probably tally on Friday.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2017, 04:30:26 AM
Any more participants? I will probably tally on Friday.
Have you made a decision on the Ring vs its separate parts?
Sarge
Numbers refer to points given:
10 Der Ring des Nibelungen (or Die Walküre)
9 Tristan und Isolde
8 Parsifal
7 Don Giovanni
6 Die Zauberflöte
5 Otello
4 Madama Butterfly
3 L'Orfeo
2 Orfeo ed Euridice
1 Pelléas et Mélisande
Quote from: sanantonio on October 03, 2017, 04:46:54 AM
These are my favorite operas - not the "greatest". So sue me.
+10 Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande
That is one I have never heard, except brief bits. I have it, it just sits unheard, as it has for decades. Together with almost all of Verdi ...
10 - Das Rhinegold
9 - Salome
8 - Zauberflote
7 - Cunning Little Vixen
6 - Peter Grimes
5 - Tannhauser
4 - Otello
3 - Tosca
2 - Giulio Cesare (Handel)
1 - Wozzeck
(points indicated)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2017, 04:43:34 AM
Have you made a decision on the Ring vs its separate parts?
Sarge
I'll just stick with individual operas since most have either only listed one, or (have once in parenthesis next to Ring Cycle). For those that are against this, I apologize, this will all be over soon and we will move to our next controversial "Greatest" list shortly. 8) :)
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2017, 04:30:26 AM
Any more participants? I will probably tally on Friday.
I'd like to modify my list thus:
03
Verdi -
La traviata02
Puccini -
ToscaBecause it has just crossed my mind that any "Greatest Operas" list which doesn't feature Verdi and Puccini is insane. :D
Quote from: Florestan on October 03, 2017, 10:13:07 AM
Because it has just crossed my mind that any "Greatest Operas" list which doesn't feature Verdi and Puccini is insane. :D
Absolutely ! But, both of them composed so many good operas that our votes are necessarily spread and get a big dilution. From that standpoint, Debussy has an unfair advantage !
Quote from: sanantonio on October 03, 2017, 10:09:24 AM
One of the most enjoyable, for me, productions is the Robert Wilson "blue" video.
I would be interested in seeing Wilson's production, I really enjoyed his take on Monteverdi's L'Orfeo.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2017, 09:51:16 AM
I'll just stick with individual operas since most have either only listed one, or (have once in parenthesis next to Ring Cycle). For those that are against this, I apologize, this will all be over soon and we will move to our next controversial "Greatest" list shortly. 8) :)
There wouldn't be any controversy at all if you simply exchanged "GMG Greatest" from the title with something else. As is, it implies some sort of consensus GMG list (or one that represents everyone at GMG) of 'greatest' works.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2017, 09:51:16 AM
I'll just stick with individual operas since most have either only listed one, or (have once in parenthesis next to Ring Cycle). For those that are against this, I apologize, this will all be over soon and we will move to our next controversial "Greatest" list shortly. 8) :)
Well I need to reorder , the bottom few changing.
Threepenny Opera
Cosi fan Tutte
Magic Flute
Sweeney Todd (SS)
Facing Goya (Nyman)
Four Saints in Three Acts (VT)
Giulio Cesare (GFH)
Ring Orfeo Ed Eurydice (CWG)
Castor et Pollux (JPR)
Walkure(RW)
Are we gonna produce a list with no Carmen, no Barber of Seville, no Turandot?
1. Otello
2. Falstaff
3-6 Ring des Nibelungen
7.Tosca
8.Nozze di Figaro
9. Rosenkavalier
10. Albert Herring
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 03, 2017, 11:10:51 AM
1. Otello
2. Falstaff
3-6 Ring des Nibelungen
7.Tosca
8.Nozze di Figaro
9. Rosenkavalier
10. Albert Herring
Numbers are points or places? And Rheingold gets the highest placing/lowest points?
Quote from: Ken B on October 03, 2017, 11:02:49 AM
Are we gonna produce a list with no Carmen, no Barber of Seville, no Turandot?
Choosing a Puccini opera is tough. I love them all and I hated leaving out Turandot (the one I probably listen to most often). A top 20 greatest would have been easier.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2017, 01:27:30 PM
Choosing a Puccini opera is tough. I love them all and I hated leaving out Turandot (the one I probably listen to most often). A top 20 greatest would have been easier.
Sarge
20 in a top 10?
I thought only John counts that badly. ;)
Quote from: North Star on October 03, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
Numbers are points or places? And Rheingold gets the highest placing/lowest points?
Numbers are to ensure I didn't go over 10. :P
Ranking them, Otello and Falstaff would be tied for 1st, Albert Herring for 10th, and the rest tied for 3rd.
Quote from: Ken B on October 03, 2017, 01:30:15 PM
20 in a top 10?
I thought only John counts that badly. ;)
;D :D ;D I can count up to 20 pretty easily (fingers and toes). Beyond that it becomes problematic.
Sarge
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2017, 01:27:30 PM
Choosing a Puccini opera is tough. I love them all and I hated leaving out Turandot (the one I probably listen to most often). A top 20 greatest would have been easier.
Sarge
I can't say my Puccini love equals yours, but my feelings about Turandot are the same. It's just that I think Tosca (and Boheme, too) are more dramatically coherent and more musically enriched.
Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 03, 2017, 01:35:46 PM
Numbers are to ensure I didn't go over 10. :P
Ranking them, Otello and Falstaff would be tied for 1st, Albert Herring for 10th, and the rest tied for 3rd.
Poor Greg! That combinatorics course finally comes in useful!
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2017, 01:37:42 PM
I can count up to 20 pretty easily (fingers and toes). Beyond that it becomes problematic.
21 should be piece of cake, though, even as a mournful remembrance. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on October 03, 2017, 01:41:04 PM
21 should be piece of cake, though, even as a mournful remembrance. ;D ;D ;D
Your knowledge of Clevelanders is sorely deficient.
Quote from: Ken B on October 03, 2017, 01:42:18 PM
Your knowledge of Clevelanders is sorely deficient.
Enlighten me, mighty Zeus!
Quote from: Florestan on October 03, 2017, 01:45:29 PM
Enlighten me, mighty Zeus!
Let's just say, speaking as a former Cincinnatian, that Clevelanders suffer a well-known deficiency. And that the population of Cleveland has long been declining, and leave it at that. ;)
Quote from: Ken B on October 03, 2017, 01:49:14 PM
Let's just say, speaking as a former Cincinnatian, that Clevelanders suffer a well-known deficiency. And that the population of Cleveland has long been declining, and leave it at that. ;)
But they still have tongues, I assume, so 21 it is. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Florestan on October 03, 2017, 01:41:04 PM
21 should be piece of cake, though, even as a mournful remembrance. ;D ;D ;D
Those were the days, my friend ;D :D ;D
Sarge
Points, not rank.
10. Brett Dean : Bliss
9. Debussy : Pelleas und Mélisande
8. Maxwell Davies : Ressurection
7. Wagner : Tristan und Isolde
6. Britten : Death in Venice
5. Szymanowski: Król Roger
4. Shostakovich : Der Nose
3. Erwin Schulhoff : Flammen
2. Nikolai Karetnikov : Till eulenspiegel
1. Berg : Wozzeck
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 03, 2017, 01:37:42 PM
;D :D ;D I can count up to 20 pretty easily (fingers and toes). Beyond that it becomes problematic.
Sarge
you can count up to 1023 with your 10 fingers, it needs only some digital and mental flexibility
10 Bliss (Dean)
9 Tristan und Isolde
8 Luci Mie Traditrici
7 Shadowtime
6 Punch and Judy
5 Lear
4 Hamlet (Dean)
3 Götterdämmerung
2 Le Grand Macabre
1 Die Walküre
I should have scores tallied by later today. hopefully. There are a few operas listed that don't have composer's attached so I'm having to look them up.
Also, there are a few .5 scores because Jeffrey had a few ties, and every list should total 55 points. If you have any questions about it let me know.
10 - Glass: Les Enfants Terribles
9 - Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
8 - Glass: Akhnaten
7 - Dvořák: Rusalka
6 - Verdi: Macbeth
5 - Purcell: The Fairy Queen
4 - Adams: Nixon in China
3 - Handel: Xerxes
2 - Vivaldi: Giustino
1 - Feldman: Neither
Quote from: aesthetic on October 07, 2017, 10:14:30 AM
10 - Glass: Les Enfants Terribles
9 - Purcell: Dido and Aeneas
8 - Glass: Akhnaten
7 - Dvořák: Rusalka
6 - Verdi: Macbeth
5 - Purcell: The Fairy Queen
4 - Adams: Nixon in China
3 - Handel: Xerxes
2 - Vivaldi: Giustino
1 - Feldman: Neither
Great list, aesthetic. Especially your top 3.
TheGSMoeller - you can break ties by the amount of users that nominated each work. Just a thought.
Quote from: schnittkease on October 07, 2017, 04:31:41 PM
TheGSMoeller - you can break ties by the amount of users that nominated each work. Just a thought.
Good idea, I will use that. Good news for this poll is that the first tie is for 15th place.
The Top Ten
1. Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro - 85
2. Wagner: Tristan und Isolde 65
3. Berg: Wozzeck - 57
4. Mozart: Don Giovanni - 53
5. Wagner: Die Walkure - 49.5
6. Debussy: Pelléas et Mélisande - 49
7. Mozart: Die Zauberflöte - 34
8. Monteverdi: L'Orfeo - 33
9. Puccini: Turandot - 27
10.Wagner: Parsifal - 26
11. Verdi: Falstaff - 25.5
12. Berlioz: Les Troyens 24
13. Purcell: Dido & Aeneas 23
14. Verdi: Otello 23
15. Mussorgsky: Boris Godunov 22
16. Mozart: Cosi fan tutte 22
17. Bartók: Bluebeard's Castle 21
18. Strauss: Salome - 21
19. Dean : Bliss 20
20. Wagner: Das Rheingold 18.5
21. Wagner: Die Meistersingers 18
22. Wagner: Götterdämmerung 17.5
23. Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen 17
24. Szymanowski: King Roger 15
25. Bizet: Carmen 13
Good to see Berg's Wozzeck has such a strong standing after the dust has settled. 8)
An excellent list, except for a minor blip near the end.
Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 07, 2017, 04:51:51 PM
21. Wagner: Die Meistersingers 18
...von Bonn? ...von Hamburg? ...von Friedrichshain? ;D
For the next round, may I suggest "Greatest Solo Piano Works (non-sonata, only one per composer, could be an individual piece or a whole cycle)"? :laugh:
Quote from: amw on September 29, 2017, 07:48:08 PM
+10 Le nozze di Figaro
+9 Luci mie traditrici (Salvatore Sciarrino.... no one else will vote for this so I'm giving it lots of points)
+8 Das Mädchen mit den Schwefelhölzern
+7 Così fan tutte
+6 Don Giovanni
+5 Boris Godunov (original version preferably)
+4 Mittwoch aus Licht
+3 Die Soldaten
+2 Das Rheingold
+1 Le grand macabre
I don't listen to opera a lot.
Bonus list, musical edition:
+10 Fiddler on the Roof
+9 West Side Story
+8 My Fair Lady
+7 1776
+6 A Chorus Line
+5 Guys & Dolls
+4 Avenue Q
+3 Rent
+2 The Producers
+1 Les Miz
Quote from: jessop on October 05, 2017, 02:00:52 AM
10 Bliss (Dean)
9 Tristan und Isolde
8 Luci Mie Traditrici
7 Shadowtime
6 Punch and Judy
5 Lear
4 Hamlet (Dean)
3 Götterdämmerung
2 Le Grand Macabre
1 Die Walküre
The Sciarrino took 17 points so it should be somewhere in the list...
Quote from: Florestan on October 07, 2017, 10:19:30 PM
I saw that coming! Yay! 8)
Well, at least it's there... ;D
The list is in fact remarkably close from the most performed opera, except of course the order. 😀
Maybe the Dean and Szymanowski would not have made it. And of course many more Verdi's opera would be on the list. Already, if TsarasLondon would have participated, Verdi would have gotten 45 extra points !
Quote from: GioCar on October 07, 2017, 11:19:31 PM
The Sciarrino took 17 points so it should be somewhere in the list...
I had a Sciarrino opera phase earlier in the year. This one is probably his best.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 07, 2017, 05:52:06 PM
Good to see Berg's Wozzeck has such a strong standing after the dust has settled. 8)
Well............GMG isn't a
huge forum and the amount of people voting in this poll gives a lot of voting power to very few voters I guess
Quote from: GioCar on October 07, 2017, 11:19:31 PM
The Sciarrino took 17 points so it should be somewhere in the list...
Good catch,
Gio, the second list there didn't have composer names so I must've filed it differently when I compiled them all. Thanks!
Quote from: Spineur on October 07, 2017, 11:59:35 PM
The list is in fact remarkably close from the most performed opera, except of course the order. 😀
Maybe the Dean and Szymanowski would not have made it. And of course many more Verdi's opera would be on the list. Already, if TsarasLondon would have participated, Verdi would have gotten 45 extra points !
:D
Call me an old fart but for me a list of
Top 25 Greatest Operas with no
Handel, Rossini, Bellini and
Donizetti is deeply flawed. I mean, seriously guys, no
Baroque (other than... Purcell?) and no
Belcanto at all? Will the
Doom&Gloom Brigade ever be defeated? ;D :P
Norma was my # 1 choice and yet it didn't make the list. I'll bet that fewer than 25% of those who voted ever heard it in full. Mind you, that's the case for me with a lot of works others seem to love :D
First and foremost, thanks to TheGSMoeller for organizing this poll (and the previous ones)! :)
As for the results, I'd say they clearly show this is a classical music forum, rather than an opera one. In general, the I'd say results seem to reflect the pereceived "absolute" musical quality of the works voted for, rather than their popularity on the opera stage. I'm sure in a "pure" opera forum, we'd have much more Verdi and Puccini, some bel canto, probably less Wagner, and even Massenet and that sort of thing. I'm not saying this as a criticism of any sort: 7 of my choices made it to the top 25 list (reflecting the exquisite taste we all have here on GMG ;) ).
And I'd say it's worth pointing out that the first "real" opera, Monteverdi's L'Orfeo, made it to the top 10; what a miraculous work! 8)
I would add to your wise remarks, that the lack of interest in bel canto and more generally the italian operatic heritage may in fact prefigure what may happen to the real operatic scenes in the 21st century. Taste do change (Meyerbeer went to glory to demise). I go to about to 8 live operas a year mostly in Paris and Lyon, and the programation of these scenes has become far more diverse (in fact far more diverse than this poll says). But it is true that the programmation for italian opera is receeding some, not so much Verdi and Puccini than the bel canto composers.
What is clearly wrong, is the absence of Baroque operas which have been the programmatic favor in the past few years. Who would have believed that Cavalli Eliogabo would ever be programmed at the Paris opera. This programmatic renewal has not benefited to contemporary operas which still have a lot of trouble to make it beyond their creation.
Quote from: ritter on October 08, 2017, 06:55:35 AM
this is a classical music forum, rather than an opera one.
I'm afraid I don't quite get the difference. Is not Opera a subgenre of Classical Music? The list of composers who wrote both operas and "absolute music" is a very long one.
Operas that did not get any mention in any top ten list (far as I recall--I'm not going back to check, either), unranked, as is mine wont:
Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini
Mussorgsky: Khovanschina
Janáček: Osud
Janáček: Katja Kabanova
Janáček: From the House of the Dead
Prokofiev: Semyon Kotko
Prokofiev: Betrothal in a Monastery
Shields, Shaman
Kutavičius: Lokys
Means, Apropos of Not That
No numbers because no one here is likely interested in any of these, though they're all interesting.
I was rather taken aback, I must say, by the high level of participation by people who self-describe as not being all that interested in opera.
But I'm constantly being taken aback here, aren't I?
Quote from: some guy on October 08, 2017, 09:30:43 AM
Operas that did not get any mention in any top ten list (far as I recall--I'm not going back to check, either), unranked, as is mine wont:
Berlioz: Benvenuto Cellini
Mussorgsky: Khovanschina
Janáček: Osud
Janáček: Katja Kabanova
Janáček: From the House of the Dead
Prokofiev: Semyon Kotko
Prokofiev: Betrothal in a Monastery
Shields, Shaman
Kutavičius: Lokys
Means, Apropos of Not That
No numbers because no one here is likely interested in any of these, though they're all interesting.
I was rather taken aback, I must say, by the high level of participation by people who self-describe as not being all that interested in opera.
But I'm constantly being taken aback here, aren't I?
Quote from: North Star on September 29, 2017, 07:55:40 AM
10. Janáček: Cunning Little Vixen
9. Janáček: From the House of the Dead
8. Ravel: L'enfant et les Sortilèges
7. Mozart: Le nozze di Figaro
6. Berlioz: Les Troyens
5. Berg: Wozzeck
4. Monteverdi: L'Orfeo
3. Britten: Death in Venice
2. Rameau: Castor & Pollux
1. Szymanowski: Król Roger
Could well have included Khovanschina too.
Quote from: Florestan on October 08, 2017, 08:32:13 AM
I'm afraid I don't quite get the difference. Is not Opera a subgenre of Classical Music? The list of composers who wrote both operas and "absolute music" is a very long one.
Yes, but "opera fans" may consider other aspects than the pure muiscal quality of the works they admire. For instance, a pice like
Cavalleria Rusticana is a fun show and is greatly admired by many (and considered a "great" opera), but nobody could honestly say that
Mascagni was a "great" composer....
Another example:
Verdi's IMHO greatest acheivements made it to our list, but I am convinced that in an opera forum, the romantic trilogy and
Aïda (or even
Simon Boccanegra) would have had a much better showing than either
Falstaff (for sure) or
Otello (possibly).
Quote from: ritter on October 08, 2017, 10:05:55 AM
Yes, but "opera fans" may consider other aspects than the pure muiscal quality of the works they admire. For instance, a pice like Cavalleria Rusticana is a fun show and is greatly admired by many (and considered a "great" opera), but nobody could honestly say that Mascagni was a "great" composer....
Another example: Verdi's IMHO greatest acheivements made it to our list, but I am convinced that in an opera forum, the romantic trilogy and Aïda (or even Simon Boccanegra) would have had a much better showing than either Falstaff (for sure) or Otello (possibly).
There is a much simpler explanation. The 10 years of being a GMG member have taught me one thing: for 90% of our dear colleagues, if it's not long, loud and about suffering, it's not great music, be it opera, symphony, concerto or piano sonata. What I like to call
The Doom&Gloom Brigade. But in the case of opera, not all their forces combined could dethrone
Mozart from his deserved place of honor. ;D
"Top ten" will likely assemble a good measure of stalwarts, and a good measure of unknown stuff. The latter may be mentioned for épater le bourgeois or because it made a genuine strong artistic impression on the listener. Of course, at GMG it's the latter reason that prevails, because we are all serious and honest people ;). I could have mentioned Il Prigionero, Greek, Dead Man Walking or Koanga, but I'd be lying if I pretended that they're in my top 10. They could probably be in my top 25, though.
Quote from: jessop on October 08, 2017, 02:30:01 AM
Well............GMG isn't a huge forum and the amount of people voting in this poll gives a lot of voting power to very few voters I guess
No
Elektra, no
Moses und Aron, no
Doctor Faust, nothing by
Rimsky-Korsakov ...oh well! ;) 0:)
Quote from: André on October 08, 2017, 11:42:12 AM
"Top ten" will likely assemble a good measure of stalwarts, and a good measure of unknown stuff. The latter may be mentioned for épater le bourgeois or because it made a genuine strong artistic impression on the listener. Of course, at GMG it's the latter reason that prevails, because we are all serious and honest people ;). I could have mentioned Il Prigionero, Greek, Dead Man Walking or Koanga, but I'd be lying if I pretended that they're in my top 10. They could probably be in my top 25, though.
But that is not what this list is about. This list is supposed to be the greatest 10 operas ever written. Shock value or even strong impression are rather irrelevant. But then, that is part of the problem - everyone had their own interpretation of what that means and their own criteria for choosing. May I remind you that this is not a 'favorites' list, though some people seem to have voted this way (or for the shock value, as you mentioned), here and in the other 'greatest' lists.
Quote from: Florestan on October 08, 2017, 05:31:49 AM
:D
Call me an old fart but for me a list of Top 25 Greatest Operas with no Handel, Rossini, Bellini and Donizetti is deeply flawed. I mean, seriously guys, no Baroque (other than... Purcell?) and no Belcanto at all? Will the Doom&Gloom Brigade ever be defeated? ;D :P
There is a simpler explanation. All the composers you mentioned wrote too many operas so a poll will often not settle on any of them. Even with Verdi it is often the case that the votes will be distributed among too many. It seems to have worked for Mozart and Wagner because for Mozart it is only among about 5-6 favs and similarly with Wagner although he wrote twice that number.
And while it is of course true that opera is a subgenre of classical music, this particular forum is clearly dominated by non-operatic music. So for most people here opera does not seem to be the main focus. There are a bunch of operas/composers that tend to be the favs of people who prefer instrumental music: e.g. Wagner, Janacek, Berg. (Except for Wagner they are not big favs with "typical" opera lovers.)
Likewise, there are quite a few people out there who greatly prefer opera to instrumental music. And many of them focus on singers and singing and thus have a very different perspective.
So I think Ritter has a fair point here.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2017, 12:27:02 PM
There is a simpler explanation. All the composers you mentioned wrote too many operas so a poll will often not settle on any of them. Even with Verdi it is often the case that the votes will be distributed among too many. It seems to have worked for Mozart and Wagner because for Mozart it is only among about 5-6 favs and similarly with Wagner although he wrote twice that number.
And while it is of course true that opera is a subgenre of classical music, this particular forum is clearly dominated by non-operatic music. So for most people here opera does not seem to be the main focus. There are a bunch of operas/composers that tend to be the favs of people who prefer instrumental music: e.g. Wagner, Janacek, Berg. (Except for Wagner they are not big favs with "typical" opera lovers.)
Likewise, there are quite a few people out there who greatly prefer opera to instrumental music. And many of them focus on singers and singing and thus have a very different perspective.
So I think Ritter has a fair point here.
But so does Florestan, which is based on some of the negative comments (posted over the years) on light music, operetta, and other less dark music.
Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 08, 2017, 12:25:28 PM
But that is not what this list is about. This list is supposed to be the greatest 10 operas ever written. Shock value or even strong impression are rather irrelevant. But then, that is part of the problem - everyone had their own interpretation of what that means and their own criteria for choosing. May I remind you that this is not a 'favorites' list, though some people seem to have voted this way (or for the shock value, as you mentioned), here and in the other 'greatest' lists.
Very well. But 'top 10' or 'greatest' is in the mind of the beholder. We're not talking about the tallest buildings, longest rivers or richest billionnaires here. There are no objective criteria to measure that sort of thing. Some people are passionate about baroque opera for example - well, record companies and singers certainly seem to be - whereas I couldn't bother less about that specific sub-genre. Late Classic or Early Romantic works are on a roll too (
vide the success of the Pallazzetto Bru Zane collections issued these last few years). It's as if
anything but the old ABC(*) of operagoing will attract notice, and in 'standard' repertoire, only revamped, recontextualized and thoroughly freudianized productions are deemed worthy of attention. My own list is very conventional and unadventurous (although I skipped Carmen because I have heard it 100 times too many, I'm afraid).
*(ABC being the old Met coin for Aida/Bohème/Carmen).
Quote from: André on October 08, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
Very well. But 'top 10' or 'greatest' is in the mind of the beholder. We're not talking about the tallest buildings, longest rivers or richest billionnaires here. There are no objective criteria to measure that sort of thing. Some people are passionate about baroque opera for example - well, record companies and singers certainly seem to be - whereas I couldn't bother less about that specific sub-genre. Late Classic or Early Romantic works are on a roll too (vide the success of the Pallazzetto Bru Zane collections issued these last few years). It's as if anything but the old ABC(*) of operagoing will attract notice, and in 'standard' repertoire, only revamped, recontextualized and thoroughly freudianized productions are deemed worthy of attention. My own list is very conventional and unadventurous (although I skipped Carmen because I have heard it 100 times too many, I'm afraid).
*(ABC being the old Met coin for Aida/Bohème/Carmen).
Here we'll have to disagree. I think there do exist objective criteria. We may not agree on them (or disagree on their importance/weight), but there are criteria. For example, influence of a certain work/composer/etc. on current and/or future generations. And in the case of opera, perhaos the integration of the libretto with the music (or even the quality of the libretto itself). I'm sure there are many to consider.
I also think there is an enormous difference between 'greatest' and nearly every other indicator/qualifier, whether it be favorite/top 10/etc. Greatest is the attempt to objectively qualify/evaluate them, while all the others are simply preferences. It is why I so strenuously object to the title of this (and related) threads, as it misleads the reader entirely.
If I were you, I would not worry too much. This forum loves polls although there are very few active voters. The results only reflect who we are as a smallish internet community, which isnt without interest.
This doesnt prevent any of us to listen to whatever we like and go to the opera performance we can catch.
Thanks for everyone that visited, and participated! These polls always bring great discussions and debates.
Until next time!
Quote from: Spineur on October 08, 2017, 02:03:50 PM
If I were you, I would not worry too much. This forum loves polls although there are very few active voters. The results only reflect who we are as a smallish internet community, which isnt without interest.
This doesnt prevent any of us to listen to whatever we like and go to the opera performance we can catch.
A wise response. Thanks.
Quote from: Some GMG Memberloud, attention-grabbing, forceful
Exactly my point. That's precisely what
The Doom&Gloom Brigade is looking for in music --- and if they don't encounter it, then the music it's not worth their time. ;D