Biggest drop in quality for a last symphony.
For me, no question, Nielsen.
(I was put up to this. :))
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 29, 2018, 02:07:48 PM
Biggest drop in quality for a last symphony.
For me, no question, Nielsen.
(I was put up to this. :))
Interesting. Nielson's 6th is the only one of his which I have found myself constantly coming back to. What do you not like about it?
I'm gonna mention probably Philip Glass or Schnittke wrote far more interesting earlier symphonies than later ones. However, the former's 8th symphony is pretty fun to listen to.
Quote from: jessop on March 29, 2018, 02:23:05 PM
Interesting. Nielson's 6th is the only one of his which I have found myself constantly coming back to. What do you not like about it?
That the intense style of the middle symphonies (2-5) is replaced by a disjointed sort of style that I can't relate to.
Quote from: jessop on March 29, 2018, 02:23:05 PM
I'm gonna mention probably Philip Glass or Schnittke wrote far more interesting earlier symphonies than later ones. However, the former's 8th symphony is pretty fun to listen to.
Glass's 10th is an abomination but he has already written an 11th so it does not count. :(
Actually, speaking for my personal taste, I agree with Scarpia: Nielsen.
And I rank the Dvorak symphonies 873694251, which is not a Worst Last but relative to popular consensus about his 9th is pretty extremist.
Ah. Perhaps the difference of opinion is that when I first listened to Nielsen symphonies I decided to go in reverse chronological order for no particular reason at all. The 6th I found very charming, the 5th less so but still nice and I couldn't really get into the others as much as I could with the 6th.
Possibly, Atterberg's 9th symphony would be my candidate. Not necessarily that bad, just my least favorite of his.
As for the Nielsen's 6th symphony, I think it's not the worst one IMHO. Lately, I've appreciated much more its details and I find it highly rewarding (above all the 1st movement). In addition, there is a certain enigmatic atmosphere that makes it even more interesting (it's me, anyway).
Strange, I find Nielsen's last symphony one of his best. :-\ Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
I don't know enough pieces by mediocre composers of too many symphonies (like Spohr, Raff or Glass), so I don't have obvious candidates.
Sibelius 8th? That's why it was never finished/published :D
Among major composers/pieces, I think Schumann's "Rhenish" is a candidate. I find it very uneven with a good first movement, decent second and fascinating 4th (brassy "cathedral") movement but the 3rd and 5th are weak and the whole thing does not hang together very well for me.
I don't quite "get" Nielsen's 6th (and even so I am not sure if I clearly prefer his first two to it) but as in some other composers (DSCH's 15th) it does not seem a failure at all, just a deliberate change towards a more enigmatic, less obviously expressive style.
Prokofieff'S 7th is almost his worst, but the 4th is probably still weaker, although I don't know them well enough for a final verdict.
I honestly thought Nielsen 6 would be uncontroversial. In #1 he hasn't quite developed his style, than consistently developing 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 abandons the style and falls off a cliff. Sort of like Shostakovich 15, except it isn't brilliant.
Can't bring to mind another symphonist whose last symphony was a turkey. Atterberg's last would be a candidate. I never listened to it because of the chorus...
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 30, 2018, 12:31:01 AM
I honestly thought Nielsen 6 would be uncontroversial.
Wow.
I would suggest that you listen carefully to all Nielsen's oeuvre from earliest to latest. I don't think it's much of a stretch to see that the sixth is the culmination of everything he'd been working towards.
And if you do think that that's too much of a stretch, give the flute concerto another listen. See?
The sixth is not a one off. The sixth is not a falling off the cliff. The sixth is the goal, the music that Nielsen was headed towards his entire career, the final flowering. (You'll have noticed yourselves that flowers do indeed look different from leaves and branches and trunks (or stems) and roots.)
Also, the first is quite highly developed stylistically and Shostakovich's 15th is a return to his salad years before Stalin got going on him.
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 29, 2018, 02:07:48 PM
(I was put up to this. :))
Not at all - your idea, which I merely encouraged as a good and fruitful one :)
I'm afraid, both for worst firsts and lasts, it's Dvořák for me, although love all the others, especially 5-8, with a special soft spot for 2.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 30, 2018, 12:03:43 AM
I don't know enough pieces by mediocre composers of too many symphonies (like Spohr, Raff or Glass), so I don't have obvious candidates.
Sibelius 8th? That's why it was never finished/published :D
Prokofieff'S 7th is almost his worst, but the 4th is probably still weaker, although I don't know them well enough for a final verdict.
I have never liked the
Seventh, although GMG has a good number of members who think it is quite fine. Both versions of the
Fourth I find problematic.
How about the latest symphony (#3....?) of conductor
Leif - "Will SOMEBODY keep music paper out of his hands?" - Segerstam ? ??? ;)
Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 30, 2018, 12:31:01 AM
I honestly thought Nielsen 6 would be uncontroversial.
I knew that it would be controversial because I know many GMGers love it, but also because it falls into that 20th century vein of music which clearly does not exist for me, without necessarily being bad. I remember liking the first movement and then simply being baffled by the rest, like he was speaking a language that my brain just won't translate. It is good that there are people who understand that language, I guess, but they ain't us.
Nielsen 6 is also my personal favourite and seems like an obvious development of his style up til then, alongside the flute and clarinet concertos. I guess it's in a somewhat lighter vein than his other symphonies though and goes against the preferences of people who prefer epicness.
For me I also have to go with Dvořák, although the slow movement does have lovely things in it.
Now I understand that some find Dvorak's "New World" grotesquely overrated and I can sympathize with that to some extent. But it is not all a bad piece, superior to his first four symphonies, I'd say.
Since Nielsen 6 and Prok 7 are among my favorite symphonies, I cannot endorse the negative comments and votes. In fact, I'll have to unfriend several people ;D
My vote goes to Arnold Bax's Seventh.
Sarge
Quote from: Jo498 on March 30, 2018, 08:18:01 AM
Now I understand that some find Dvorak's "New World" grotesquely overrated and I can sympathize with that to some extent. But it is not all a bad piece, superior to his first four symphonies, I'd say.
I think No.9 is quite weak structurally, with little variety in the phrasing, everything being 4 and 8 bars long, and exceptionally clumsy reuse of material from earlier movements in later ones. And everything is stretched out much longer than it should be vs the concision he achieved in the previous two symphonies. Maybe No.1 is even weaker in technical aspects, but No.1 at least has a sense of energy and possibilities instead of just going through the motions. Nos.2, 3 and 4 are as fine as 5-8 imo, just a bit more long-winded.
A very plausible but very obscure candidate is Johann Wenzel Kalliwoda, one of those rare composers who genuinely seemed to fade with age. His Seventh and final symphony is a decent early-romantic effort, but it can't hold a candle to the bizarre chromatic motto theme of the Third, the ferocious/savage fury of the Fifth (which makes Schumann look like a big baby), or the forward-looking eccentricity of his string quartets.
There is no way I can tell anyone which last symphony is the weakest.
Heck, in another forum there was a thread dedicated to those who though Beethoven's Ninth was his weakest ???
For whatever it is worth my least favorite last symphony is William Schuman's Tenth. I am a big Schuman fan and for me it was a major disappointment. If there are any who think it is great, please jump in.
Every Gadé symphony after the first is a let down.
It is interesting how some react to various works, like the Dvorak Ninth. His symphonies are playable for amateur orchestras. I have performed the last three and for me the Ninth was the most fun to play. Now does fun = best? I do not know.
My favorite Dvorak is the 7th, but I don't think of the 9th as at all bad. Karajan's dark reading of the 9th recorded for EMI makes it a more interesting work, for me.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 30, 2018, 12:03:43 AM
Among major composers/pieces, I think Schumann's "Rhenish" is a candidate. I find it very uneven with a good first movement, decent second and fascinating 4th (brassy "cathedral") movement but the 3rd and 5th are weak and the whole thing does not hang together very well for me.
I think the last movement rounds it off really well, as befits a romantic symphony, very joyous and for me a stunning climax.
As said in the other thread though the worst of something is probably something you haven't heard (or I would even say got destroyed by the composer). And it will always be a matter of perspective, so the worst last for someone is probably from a composer someone likes a lot but is disappointed with their style at the end. The numbering doesn't always give you the chronological order either.
The assumption in classical music (unlike in popular music often) is often that the later works will be by an even more accomplished and experienced composer.
Much too fond of the Dvořák Ninth to entertain any disdain for it. And, like the Sarge, the Nielsen Sixth and Prokofiev Seventh are great favorites. Has me speculating that, had Shostakovich only written nine, his Ninth would be nominated here.
Quote from: arpeggio on March 30, 2018, 08:01:59 PM
There is no way I can tell anyone which last symphony is the weakest.
Heck, in another forum there was a thread dedicated to those who though Beethoven's Ninth was his weakest ???
For whatever it is worth my least favorite last symphony is William Schuman's Tenth. I am a big Schuman fan and for me it was a major disappointment. If there are any who think it is great, please jump in.
What if one is a big Schuman fan and also disappointed in this symphony? Can we jump in, too?
For me, the biggest problem with Schuman's tenth is that it sounds like a pastiche of Schuman's previous works.* Pastiche's are bad enough, but when it's a composer just copying himself.... ("Himself" because I simply cannot think of any females who have done this. There may be some, I just don't know them is all.)
I feel the same about Doyle's later Holmes stories, which he apparently was reluctant to do.
*I am going to go listen to the tenth, again, just by the way. If I'm wrong, I'll add another comment, admitting my mistake. Fair's fair.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 31, 2018, 03:38:26 AM
Much too fond of the Dvořák Ninth to entertain any disdain for it. And, like the Sarge, the Nielsen Sixth and Prokofiev Seventh are great favorites. Has me speculating that, had Shostakovich only written nine, his Ninth would be nominated here.
Gasp! I think to think of Shostakovich's ninth as a contender for his best (along with 10 and 15).
Quote from: Daverz on March 30, 2018, 09:22:26 PM
Every Gadé symphony after the first is a let down.
Agreed.
Quote from: arpeggio on March 30, 2018, 08:01:59 PM
For whatever it is worth my least favorite last symphony is William Schuman's Tenth. I am a big Schuman fan and for me it was a major disappointment. If there are any who think it is great, please jump in.
Can't argue with you but I think the Roy Harris Bicentennial Symphony (13 or 14, depending on who's doing the numbering) is even worse.
Sarge
Some people claim that Barber's Symphony No. 2 (his last in the genre) is worse than his first. I don't think it is, but there's several people here who don't enjoy it. I think it has it's own charms, but is it a great work? No, I don't think it is, but the slow movement is quite haunting.
I think I'll nominate Lenny's 'Kaddish' Symphony for one of the worst. Such dreck from an, otherwise, rather fun composer.
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2018, 06:31:58 AM
Can't argue with you but I think the Roy Harris Bicentennial Symphony (13 or 14, depending on who's doing the numbering) is even worse.
Sarge
Amen!
14th, according to this blurb:
QuoteHis works, which number over 200 in a variety of genres and media, are characterized by broad, often powerfully emotional musical gestures. In 1969, Roy Harris became a lecturer and teacher in the Department of Music at California State University, Los Angeles. In honor of the Martin Luther King Holiday the display features Roy Harris' Bicentennial Symphony, which is revered by John Malveaux as "the strongest musical statement on U.S. History, slavery, and race relations ever made by an American composer." The piece was commissioned by California State University, Los Angeles and debuted by the National Symphony Orchestra in Washington, D.C., on Abraham Lincoln's birthday in 1976 as part of the country's bicentennial celebration. The work was written for an orchestra with a large chorus. The chorus carries the larger part of the work with passages from the Preamble to the Constitution, the Gettysburg Address, and the Emancipation proclamation (Sic!) as well as original passages.
The line in bold type may be the problem!
The only performance on YouTube is this one, apparently by an amateur orchestra playing in a park:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrvFtRPgIHs
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 31, 2018, 06:59:50 AM
I think I'll nominate Lenny's 'Kaddish' Symphony for one of the worst. Such dreck from an, otherwise, rather fun composer.
Amen again! 0:)
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2018, 06:31:58 AM
Can't argue with you but I think the Roy Harris Bicentennial Symphony (13 or 14, depending on who's doing the numbering) is even worse.
Sarge
I have the same feeling toward the later Harris Symphonies. I was at the premier of the Bicentennial Symphony. For me it was a dud and one of the extremely rare times that I booed.
Quote from: Daverz on March 30, 2018, 09:22:26 PM
Every Gadé symphony after the first is a let down.
I suppose you mean Niels Gade. They may be relative letdowns but not really huge drops in quality. As far as I recall the first is comparably fresh and original (although not really more than the Ossian Ouverture, his first major piece!) but then he kept composing very similar pieces that hardly reach the first symphony and lack the freshness but are not really different enough to be much weaker.
I don't know Harris 14. Schnittke is a reliable choice for worst symphony whatever the conditions. But I agree with Scarpia, the biggest drop in quality is Nielsen 6.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 29, 2018, 08:05:01 PM
Strange, I find Nielsen's last symphony one of his best. :-\ Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
I agree with John. Nielsen 6 is by far my favorite, the most subtly organized and original. Love the small second movement, which could be Nielsen's version of Webern.
I'm genuinely surprised at the admiration for Nielsen 6. I could do with a reappraise.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 29, 2018, 08:03:10 PM
Possibly, Atterberg's 9th symphony would be my candidate. Not necessarily that bad, just my least favorite of his.
As for the Nielsen's 6th symphony, I think it's not the worst one IMHO. Lately, I've appreciated much more its details and I find it highly rewarding (above all the 1st movement). In addition, there is a certain enigmatic atmosphere that makes it even more interesting (it's me, anyway).
Agree with you about the Atterberg 9th. It's an interesting work which strikes out in new directions, but it's hardly as successful as his previous symphonies. As for the Nielsen, it's not among my favorite of his symphonies, but I feel that I haven't given it enough attentive listening to fully uncover its secrets. Other possible candidates for me are Mendelssohn's 5th and Hanson's 7th.
Quote from: amw on March 30, 2018, 08:42:17 AM
I think No.9 is quite weak structurally, with little variety in the phrasing, everything being 4 and 8 bars long, and exceptionally clumsy reuse of material from earlier movements in later ones. And everything is stretched out much longer than it should be vs the concision he achieved in the previous two symphonies. Maybe No.1 is even weaker in technical aspects, but No.1 at least has a sense of energy and possibilities instead of just going through the motions. Nos.2, 3 and 4 are as fine as 5-8 imo, just a bit more long-winded.
I overall agree with you. The Dvorak 9th has great melodies of course, but structurally it can't match the ingenuity of the 7th and 8th symphonies in particular. I also find it doesn't contain as much emotional variety as the 7th and 8th.
Any Philip Glass symphony, but especially the one he last finished. :)
Quote from: Cato on March 30, 2018, 03:47:23 AM
How about the latest symphony (#3....?) of conductor Leif - "Will SOMEBODY keep music paper out of his hands?" - Segerstam ? ??? ;)
You will get some considerable entertainment out of this new Hurwitz review (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/segerstams-bewildering-brahms/) of Segerstam's Symphony No. 289 "When the Cat Visited"!
I can only think that all the enthusiasm for Telemann here is encouraging him . . . .
8)
Quote from: kyjo on April 01, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
Agree with you about the Atterberg 9th. It's an interesting work which strikes out in new directions, but it's hardly as successful as his previous symphonies. As for the Nielsen, it's not among my favorite of his symphonies, but I feel that I haven't given it enough attentive listening to fully uncover its secrets. Other possible candidates for me are Mendelssohn's 5th and Hanson's 7th.
Definitely, Nielsen's 6th deserves more attention and understanding.
Are you taking the Mendelssohn in chronological order or in numbered one? In numbered order, the
Reformation would be my choice as well, though there are certain nice moments.
Vagn Holmboe is, for me, a composer who went into serious decline in the final 15 years or so of his career and his 13th Symphony is as good an example as any of that.
So much of his later music seems to be an an endless recycling of the rhythms, harmonies and structural ideas he had already worked to death years earlier. The final 8 or 9 of his string quartets are, to me, now unlistenable for that reason.
Quote from: kyjo on April 01, 2018, 08:26:06 PM
Other possible candidates for me are Mendelssohn's 5th and Hanson's 7th.
The Mendelssohn "5th" is actually his second (apart from the string symphonies) and was not deemed worthy of publication by the composer, so it is not really a "last symphony". I quite like it despite its obvious problems (almost negligible middle movements that don't really fit with the reformation theme of the outer movements). Probably he should have reworked it into a shorter ouverture or tone poem based on the choral themes.