I'm thinking of recordings which seem to go against the spirit of a piece, or flagrantly disregard score indications, or just introduce some element of weirdness that is foreign to the music, yet they work splendidly anyway. A few examples:
Barbirolli's Mahler 6 - the grim slow tempi and the constantly highlighting and heaviness shouldn't work in Mahler's most deliberately classical symphony, but they do, and the result is one of the great Mahler recordings;
Glenn Gould's "Consort of Musicke" album - playing Shakespeare-era virginal music on a modern piano shouldn't work, but it does, and it's one of my favorite piano records.
Come to think of it, there are probably a lot of pioneering Early Music recordings that still sound great as performances, but due to advancing scholarship, were actually performed totally wrong. I don't know enough to judge, but maybe David Munrow's anthologies and Pro Cantione Antiqua fall into this category? (I'll give up these records only if you pry them from my cold dead hands!)
The epic Nimrod of Lenny's Enigma Variations.
(http://www.nonesuch.com/sites/g/files/g2000005811/f/styles/featured_release/public/albums/coverart/pokrovsky-les-noces.jpg?itok=dNEhX-Uc). (https://img.discogs.com/jhnB9hMGyUesJXsdpKv9COetK3Y=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1117749-1288994887.jpeg.jpg)
Well, I disagree that that one works splendidly; but that detail aside . . . .
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2018, 10:38:11 AM
Well, I disagree that that one works splendidly; but that detail aside . . . .
I knew you'd say that! I remembered. Here's another one I thought of just now
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51v6rgkI6hL._SY355_.jpg)
Karl -- Michel Portal's Domaines (Boulez) -- it's the only one I know and somehow I've picked up that it's wrongheaded in some way because of some sort of jazz influence. Is that right? (I like it very much.)
(https://img.discogs.com/-E591nrH5XwkezVmUjesRvzLlys=/fit-in/600x536/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-970661-1211066188.jpeg.jpg)
Quote from: Mandryka on July 11, 2018, 10:42:41 AM
Karl -- Michel Portal's Domaines (Boulez) -- it's the only one I know and somehow I've picked up that it's wrongheaded in some way because of some sort of jazz influence. Is that right? (I like it very much.)
I'll bet
Rafael could tell; I cannot.
. . . this is impossibly slow, but good heavens, it is exquisite:
https://www.youtube.com/v/R4Ag-SloSX0
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 11, 2018, 09:52:53 AM
I'm thinking of recordings which seem to go against the spirit of a piece, or flagrantly disregard score indications, or just introduce some element of weirdness that is foreign to the music, yet they work splendidly anyway. A few examples:
Barbirolli's Mahler 6 - the grim slow tempi and the constantly highlighting and heaviness shouldn't work in Mahler's most deliberately classical symphony, but they do, and the result is one of the great Mahler recordings;
[...]
Heftig, markig, wuchtig, energico. Words that Mahler used frequently in this score.
And that's what I hear in this performance. Who knows, it might correspond quite good with Mahler's intentions.
To me, this symphony is only formally and outwardly 'deliberately classical'.
Inwardly, there's not much classical about this dramatic journey from Alma's theme to hammer blows and fate. And IMHO, Barbirolli understood that perfectly, even though it's not a 'perfect' performance. Tempi are sometimes too slow, I think. But I would never consider this one wrongheaded.
Well, at least we agree that it's a Great Performance! :)
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2018, 10:58:11 AM
I'll bet Rafael could tell; I cannot.
Well, it
is hard to tell, but I'll do my best. ;)
Diego Masson's 1971 recording for Harmonia Mundi of the
Domaines version for clarinet and ensemble (or
Domaines II) is the only available recording AFAIK of this infrequently performed piece, so there's nothing to compare it to.
Dominique Jameux says it was supervised by the composer, and
Boulez also selected it for inclusion (some 40 years later) in his "Complete Works - Work in Progress" box on DG. So I suppose the composer himself would not have seen it as "wrongheaded".
There definitely are some "jazzy" sounds in the performance. I suppose
Mandryka is referring to the moment the clarinet soloist "visits" the instrumental group "C" in section 1 (at ca.4'50" of track 1). That group is made up of a marimba and a double bass, the latter playing only pizzicato. The sound that emanates
is jazzy, in a rather cool way, but that may have to do with the fact that there are few things we would associate
more with jazz than a pizzicato double bass. I presume the composer would have noticed the effect when writing the music, and that it might even be slightly tongue-in-cheek. Still, is is rather cool.
Of course, some may argue that that section of
Domaines is a late reflection of what has been called "Darmstadt jazz". For instance
Martin Iddon in
New Music in Darmstadt quotes
Robin Maconie dismissing
Stockhausen's
Kreuzspiel thus: the piece seemed "to defer, by its salon-jazz character, to the vulgar influence of the occupying American culture" ??? :o . But to me it seems that the late 60s
Boulez of
Domaines is rather distant from the early
Stockhausen of
Kreuzspiel.
I'm going to list a controversial one here. While I really like it for the way it exposes the inner workings of the piece, others will consider it to be an abomination. I'm talking about Glenn Gould's performance of the Appassionata, specifically the first movement.
(https://e.snmc.io/lk/f/l/fa0b1410bc0352b256c608e533778a24/2159441.jpg)
Kempff Goldberg Variations
Schuberbach extra romantic. Florestan's dream Goldberg.
Cool thread idea.
On the operatic front, Karajan's take on Puccini's Turandot could qualify:
[asin]B000001G9X[/asin]
The female voices are not the "right" ones for their roles, and yet the end result is riveting. And the orchestra, oh, the orchestra....!
And then, of course, there's Karl Böhm's swan song recording of Beethoven's Ninth:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51IoGvYB6hL.jpg)
Way too slow, and simply sublime as a result!
Quote from: ritter on July 11, 2018, 12:14:57 PM
Well, it is hard to tell, but I'll do my best. ;)
Diego Masson's 1971 recording for Harmonia Mundi of the Domaines version for clarinet and ensemble (or Domaines II) is the only available recording AFAIK of this infrequently performed piece, so there's nothing to compare it to. Dominique Jameux says it was supervised by the composer, and Boulez also selected it for inclusion (some 40 years later) in his "Complete Works - Work in Progress" box on DG. So I suppose the composer himself would not have seen it as "wrongheaded".
There definitely are some "jazzy" sounds in the performance. I suppose Mandryka is referring to the moment the clarinet soloist "visits" the instrumental group "C" in section 1 (at ca.4'50" of track 1). That group is made up of a marimba and a double bass, the latter playing only pizzicato. The sound that emanates is jazzy, in a rather cool way, but that may have to do with the fact that there are few things we would associate more with jazz than a pizzicato double bass. I presume the composer would have noticed the effect when writing the music, and that it might even be slightly tongue-in-cheek. Still, is is rather cool.
Of course, some may argue that that section of Domaines is a late reflection of what has been called "Darmstadt jazz". For instance Martin Iddon in New Music in Darmstadt quotes Robin Maconie dismissing Stockhausen's Kreuzspiel thus: the piece seemed "to defer, by its salon-jazz character, to the vulgar influence of the occupying American culture" ??? :o . But to me it seems that the late 60s Boulez of Domaines is rather distant from the early Stockhausen of Kreuzspiel.
And the writing at about 10,20 in track 1. Thanks for the ideas. I've had the recording for years, I play it occasionally always with pleasure, but I've never thought about it much.
https://www.youtube.com/v/UT8DFLjWdC8
Is this wrongheaded, the way Herreweghe does the opening chorus in such a cheerful way in his second recording, the one with Bostridge? Can that be right?
Or the happy way Bruggen and Egmond do Ich habe genug? Can that possibly be right?
https://www.youtube.com/v/v3xXl1usMNU
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 11, 2018, 09:52:53 AM
Barbirolli's Mahler 6 - the grim slow tempi and the constantly highlighting and heaviness shouldn't work in Mahler's most deliberately classical symphony, but they do, and the result is one of the great Mahler recordings;
Is that the recording where one can hear
Sir John humming and even groaning at times?
Quote from: Cato on July 11, 2018, 02:05:16 PM
Is that the recording where one can hear Sir John humming and even groaning at times?
Yeah, that's the one. Adds to the sense of struggle, I think.
I actually enjoy that absolutely bizarre Mengelberg recording of Mahler's Fourth Symphony. It doesn't follow the score precisely by any means, but it preserves a certain interpretive tradition that has been lost today.
Gould's rendition of Schoenberg's Suite for Piano is absolutely wrongheaded. He rebalances things all over the place and takes the Intermezzo at half the notated tempo. Still, it's very interesting.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61iQX77jAVL.jpg)
Newton's laws of gravity and of inertia should make this recording founder under its own weight. But it defies the odds.
A famous example:
[asin] B000001G82[/asin]
I think Lenny has a lot of recordings in this category.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on July 11, 2018, 02:31:37 PM
Yeah, that's the one. Adds to the sense of struggle, I think.
But it can also make me giggle sometimes... let's just say that's the modest amount of Mahlerian irony then.
Quote from: Marc on July 11, 2018, 11:04:56 AM
Heftig, markig, wuchtig, energico. Words that Mahler used frequently in this score.
And that's what I hear in this performance. Who knows, it might correspond quite good with Mahler's intentions.
To me, this symphony is only formally and outwardly 'deliberately classical'.
Inwardly, there's not much classical about this dramatic journey from Alma's theme to hammer blows and fate. And IMHO, Barbirolli understood that perfectly, even though it's not a 'perfect' performance. Tempi are sometimes too slow, I think. But I would never consider this one wrongheaded.
Well, at least we agree that it's a Great Performance! :)
There are two live Barbirolli performances of the 6th, with the Berlin Philharmonic (January 1966) and the New Philharmonia (August 1967); both are around 10 minutes quicker than the studio recording with the New Philharmonia (August 1967). My preference is for the live New Philharmonia performance.
Quote from: Biffo on July 12, 2018, 12:13:59 AM
There are two live Barbirolli performances of the 6th, with the Berlin Philharmonic (January 1966) and the New Philharmonia (August 1967); both are around 10 minutes quicker than the studio recording with the New Philharmonia (August 1967). My preference is for the live New Philharmonia performance.
Even though I'm not that much in good ole Gustav any more (whch a.o. means: no more expanding of the already rather large collection), thanks for this message!
I might al least check out the New Philharmonia one.
Quote from: Marc on July 12, 2018, 12:51:35 AM
Even though I'm not that much in good ole Gustav any more (whch a.o. means: no more expanding of the already rather large collection), thanks for this message!
I might al least check out the New Philharmonia one.
I should have added that it is on the Testament label, hope you enjoy it.
Quote from: Biffo on July 12, 2018, 01:21:02 AM
I should have added that it is on the Testament label, hope you enjoy it.
The Dutch general public library has it... ordered it. :)
Quote from: Daverz on July 11, 2018, 06:20:19 PM
A famous example:
[asin] B000001G82[/asin]
I think Lenny has a lot of recordings in this category.
I need to revisit that. I do remember
Larry mentioning it, but without praise.
The
CSO Leningrad, though . . . couldn't imagine any other conductor drawing it out as he did, but keeping it tight and making it work.
I like the Lenny Pathetique but there is certainly a sense of the musicians checking their watches and wondering what time the pubs shut - no wonder they sound so sad ;D
Interesting to contrast the last movement with Dausgaard, who almost halves the duration but is also a compelling listen. Nice compare/contrast on the sleeve art too.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41wDnQxKpBL._SX425_.jpg)
Quote from: Mahlerian on July 11, 2018, 03:24:04 PM
Gould's rendition of Schoenberg's Suite for Piano is absolutely wrongheaded. He rebalances things all over the place and takes the Intermezzo at half the notated tempo. Still, it's very interesting.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 12, 2018, 01:27:40 AM
The CSO Leningrad, though . . . couldn't imagine any other conductor drawing it out as he did, but keeping it tight and making it work.
I expected Gould and Bernstein to be the kings of this thread. Frequently exasperating, but great musicians with their own vision of things. Another such might be Hermann Scherchen.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2018, 10:58:11 AM
I'll bet Rafael could tell; I cannot.
. . . this is impossibly slow, but good heavens, it is exquisite:
https://www.youtube.com/v/R4Ag-SloSX0
In Life and Death of Classical Music this recording was flagged as one of the 20 worst of all time which is a rather dubious distinction.
True blue Wagnerians apparently hate Norrington's recording of Wagner preludes/overtures etc with the London Classical Players, but I think it's wonderful personally.
Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on July 12, 2018, 07:32:16 AM
In Life and Death of Classical Music this recording was flagged as one of the 20 worst of all time which is a rather dubious distinction.
I can see it being a love-it-or-hate-it item.
Any takers for Pogorelich playing Schumann's Symphonische Etüden?
Quote from: JCBuckley on July 12, 2018, 09:14:57 AM
Any takers for Pogorelich playing Schumann's Symphonische Etüden?
I don't know about the Schumann, but a 43-minute live Rach 2 from San Francisco would be a candidate if ever issued commercially.
Quote from: amw on July 12, 2018, 07:39:36 AM
True blue Wagnerians apparently hate Norrington's recording of Wagner preludes/overtures etc with the London Classical Players, but I think it's wonderful personally.
I am a big fan of Sir Roger. There is another disc titled
Early Romantic Overtures with the same forces that I like. To me he was really the father of the entire HIP movement - at least in the recorded industry.
Quote from: JCBuckley on July 12, 2018, 09:14:57 AM
Any takers for Pogorelich playing Schumann's Symphonische Etüden?
Which has reminded me of Tzimon Barto's recording of the same work which I'll add to the list.
Robert Shaw's performance of Walton's Belshazzar's Feast puts in an extraneous 'SLAIN!' at the end which retrospectively ruins what would otherwise have been a fine performance. Koussevitsky brings back the chimes of Big Ben at the very end of A London Symphony, which I have to admit I rather enjoyed as I did Svetlanov's recording of Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony where he brings back the exciting end of the first movement at the end of the finale. I have to confess that I much prefer this to Tchaikovsky's rather dreary original version.
Quote from: Daverz on July 11, 2018, 06:20:19 PM
A famous example:
[asin] B000001G82[/asin]
I think Lenny has a lot of recordings in this category.
Agreed on both counts!
Quote from: André on July 12, 2018, 09:21:05 AM
I don't know about the Schumann, but a 43-minute live Rach 2 from San Francisco would be a candidate if ever issued commercially.
How about a 54 minute Liszt Sonata from Pogorelich? At some point, people will need to bring an overnight bag to his concerts! Of course, those timings pale in comparison to Anton Batagov's Bach recordings:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/6163DytB7aL._SS500.jpg)
He plays two Partitas and it requires two CDs!! Somehow, he makes it work since he does play with expression and dynamics, unlike his even more glacial Art of the Fugue, which has neither of those and sounds as if it's a MIDI keyboard...in mono, no less! (recorded in 1993.) It absolutely
doesn't work.
Kleiber's Beethoven 7 seems to arouse a lot of controversy especially because of the tempo but I think it's sublime
It's an absolute mess, really but the Martha Argerich/Kondrashin Tchaikovsky 1st concerto is very exciting at the hectic tempo ... hardly ideal and certainly shouldn't be a first choice for someone looking for an ideal reading but it's a lot of fun. I guess you have to blame fiery Martha for that because after all, it's Kondrashin himself who conducts what is for me the perfect version (the classic Van Cliburn)
Bernstein has more than his share of these but that's part of his greatness... that feeling for the moments in a piece... there's far cleaner, more highly regarded versions of Shostakovich Symphony no. 5 for sure, but Bernstein's is special ... he and the NYPO get something extra out of that piece ... the 4th movement kind of falls apart toward the end but that opening! Up tempo and utterly ferocious; it's great
I'm in no place to judge the worth of these, but I can present a few examples I know of on-the-surface recordings that seem to go against the grain.
- Otto Klemperer's 100-minute Mahler 7
- Sergiu Celibidache's later recordings with the Munich PO. Hyper-slowed Bruckner, Brahms, Tchaikovsky et al.
Old thread but fun topic. :D
As I was reading through, I thought of Beecham's Messiah.
Once you have heard something like the wonderful early Hogwood one, it's easy to think that Beecham's approach must be wrong in every way.
But goodness, is it ever thrilling!
Gould's Byrd/Gibbons disc and others by this pianist were mentioned above but one might apply this to almost all of his recordings, or at least the second part because the "great" is more in dispute than the wrongheaded.
I got to know a lot of Bach and some other music via Gould and was sufficiently fascinated that I eventually got most of his recordings but I wonder if I will some day consider most of his stuff as wrongheaded and only very occasionally great.
I listened to a few Beethoven sonatas with Gould but while not uninteresting and pretty good they didn't quite qualify: op.13 is very fast (except for the Grave sections) and dry, op.14/1 similarly, very fast in the outer movements and slowish in the middle, probably the best of the 3 but like op.14/2 that is slow (extremely so in the middle movement, still not unfunny in a dry fashion) neither sufficiently wrongheaded nor great enough.
Then began op.27/1 and this was so bad, I had to turn it off.
Sure, that movement that seems minimalist and improvisatory at the same time might be the most problematic in all published Beethoven sonatas but Gould plays it around half speed, the simple naive melody falls apart, there is no charm, it's a complete disaster, I couldn't listen to more than a few seconds.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 12, 2024, 12:46:45 AMGould's Byrd/Gibbons disc and others by this pianist were mentioned above but one might apply this to almost all of his recordings, or at least the second part because the "great" is more in dispute than the wrongheaded.
I got to know a lot of Bach and some other music via Gould and was sufficiently fascinated that I eventually got most of his recordings but I wonder if I will some day consider most of his stuff as wrongheaded and only very occasionally great.
I listened to a few Beethoven sonatas with Gould but while not uninteresting and pretty good they didn't quite qualify: op.13 is very fast (except for the Grave sections) and dry, op.14/1 similarly, very fast in the outer movements and slowish in the middle, probably the best of the 3 but like op.14/2 that is slow (extremely so in the middle movement, still not unfunny in a dry fashion) neither sufficiently wrongheaded nor great enough.
Then began op.27/1 and this was so bad, I had to turn it off.
Sure, that movement that seems minimalist and improvisatory at the same time might be the most problematic in all published Beethoven sonatas but Gould plays it around half speed, the simple naive melody falls apart, there is no charm, it's a complete disaster, I couldn't listen to more than a few seconds.
I love the op 27/i because it's so funny. Backhaus is better probably, but Gould gets the whacky humour of the music.
My problem with Gould's Beethoven was his vocalizations, which made some of the sonatas totally unlistenable.
A personal note on Barbirolli's New Philharmonia Mahler 6. Long ago I experimented with pseudo-four channel sound by hooking up the two rear speakers out of phase with the two front speakers. Late one night I decided to listen to the Barbirroli 2-L.P. EMI set. Everything was fine until midway through the first movement I noticed an odd, persistent, rhythmic "chuffing" sound in the rear speakers. After intense listening to the sound for several moments, it suddenly dawned on me that the rear speakers had extracted the heavy, labored breathing of man, long dead, and now gasping for breath behind me. Unnerved, I switched off the stereo, deciding to finish listening to the recording during daylight. (Several reviewers had, indeed, commented on the microphones picking up Barbirroli's struggling for breath.)
Quote from: geralmar on September 12, 2024, 08:44:02 PMA personal note on Barbirolli's New Philharmonia Mahler 6. Long ago I experimented with pseudo-four channel sound by hooking up the two rear speakers out of phase with the two front speakers. Late one night I decided to listen to the Barbirroli 2-L.P. EMI set. Everything was fine until midway through the first movement I noticed an odd, persistent, rhythmic "chuffing" sound in the rear speakers. After intense listening to the sound for several moments, it suddenly dawned on me that the rear speakers had extracted the heavy, labored breathing of man, long dead, and now gasping for breath behind me. Unnerved, I switched off the stereo, deciding to finish listening to the recording during daylight. (Several reviewers had, indeed, commented on the microphones picking up Barbirroli's struggling for breath.)
Creepy! :o
I would have to nominate Klemperer's Mahler 7, that slow granitic 7th is almost conceptual art, like no other Mahler 7 to my ears. I still revisit it sometimes although it's not a favorite.
For me one of the most wrong-headed recordings is Bernstein's DG recording of West Side Story, starring José Carreras (as Tony) and Kiri Te Kanawa (Maria). Kanawa is not the problem. What was Lenny thinking having Tony sung with a Spanish accent and a singer incapable of singing the jazzy syncopation of the music?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81UxTKtmEJL._SL1412_.jpg)
Quote from: San Antone on September 15, 2024, 09:54:12 AMFor me one of the most wrong-headed recordings is Bernstein's DG recording of West Side Story, starring José Carreras (as Tony) and Kiri Te Kanawa (Maria). Kanawa is not the problem. What was Lenny thinking having Tony sung with a Spanish accent and a singer incapable of singing the jazzy syncopation of the music?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81UxTKtmEJL._SL1412_.jpg)
But for all that, you find this one to be accidentally great?
Quote from: San Antone on September 15, 2024, 09:54:12 AMFor me one of the most wrong-headed recordings is Bernstein's DG recording of West Side Story, starring José Carreras (as Tony) and Kiri Te Kanawa (Maria). Kanawa is not the problem. What was Lenny thinking having Tony sung with a Spanish accent and a singer incapable of singing the jazzy syncopation of the music?
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81UxTKtmEJL._SL1412_.jpg)
Completely agree - I can only think that in his own head having "big operatic" names singing somehow legitimised the work. Not that it ever needed or needs anything except celebrating as a work of genius. The original cast recording - for me - is still the best. The sheer adrenalin of discovery burns through every bar (from memory I think it was recorded right after the orginal Broadway Opening Night) - now that's a 1st night I'd loved to have been at......
Quote from: NumberSix on September 15, 2024, 12:07:25 PMBut for all that, you find this one to be accidentally great?
Ah - I see you are right in terms of the original OP for this thread. I was going down the "its just wrong" path!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 25, 2024, 08:13:57 AMAh - I see you are right in terms of the original OP for this thread. I was going down the "its just wrong" path!
:P