Since I am teaching the Iliad and the Odyssey in school, I am thinking about music based on these stories. I do have the Monteverdi opera and, of course, the Berlioz's opera. I am about to order Penelope.
Does anyone have other recommendations?
Tippet, King Priam and Monteverdi Il ritorno d'Ulisse are the first things that come to mind.
If you generalise to Achilles, then there's a lot of opera because the story of Achilles on Skyros was something which classical musicians and artists seemed to find fascinating. It's not mentioned in Homer though. I got to know about it by reading a fabulous book by Vincent Delecroix called Tombeau d'Achille, which in turn put me on to a short story by Marguerite Yourcenar -- Yourcenar as a result has become a major interest of mine. Here's a wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_on_Skyros
Telemachus was also a major subject of C 18 operas, none of which I've ever heard -- if you look on his wiki page you'll see.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 16, 2018, 11:20:40 PM
Tippet, King Priam
This one, of course, has the potential of turning students off both Homer and classical music at the same time. If you use it in class, tell us what happens! $:)
Quote from: springrite on October 16, 2018, 11:02:32 PM
Since I am teaching the Iliad and the Odyssey in school, I am thinking about music based on these stories. I do have the Monteverdi opera and, of course, the Berlioz's opera.
Technically,
Les Troyens is based on the Aeneid.
There must be a few more baroque operas although the more famous operas are all from the periphery or aftermath, namely several Iphigenies (such as Gluck's), Elektra or Idomeneo (Idomeneo also returns from the Trojan War).
Then there is obscure stuff like early 20th century symphonic poems on episodes from the Odyssey by Ernst Boehe, some of which have been recorded by cpo.
[asin]B00006LJ8Q[/asin]
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Boehe
There are choral works by Bruch: Achilleus, Leonidas and Odysseus, at least the last one has been recorded, and I see it has been described as Bruch's finest secular choral work, not that it necessarily means much.
[asin]B00000IYNL[/asin]
Nausicaa is another figure that has inspired composers ( Nausicaa allein by Ingvar Lidholm).
There are several "Homeric symphonies" - by Belgian Lodewijk Mortelmans (on Hyperion) or Austrian Theodor Berger (YT).
Rimsky Korsakov wrote a thundering Wagnerian (fun...) cantata :"Page from Homer"
There must be much, much more... La belle Hélène!
P.
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2001/Sept01/Iliad.gif)
There's also Luigi Dallapiccola's Ulisse.The composer's own libretto is based on Homer, Dante and Giovanni Pascoli.
There's only two recordings available, AFAIK, neither of them easily obtainable.
A studio production from Radio France from the early 90s:
[asin]B0000AKQH6[/asin]
The recording of the work's world premiere in Berlin in 1968 (in German translation):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/816qRo-n%2BmL._SX522_.jpg)
Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2018, 12:33:45 AM
There must be a few more baroque operas although the more famous operas are all from the periphery or aftermath, namely several Iphigenies (such as Gluck's), Elektra or Idomeneo (Idomeneo also returns from the Trojan War).
To add to these works based on the periphery that
Jo498 mentions (or "greater story" if you will ), there's
Gluck's
Paride ed Elena,
Nicola Manfroce's bel canto ópera
Ecuba, and
Othmar Schoek's
Penthesilea (based on
Kleist, but with Achilles as the male lead character).
[asin]B00099BPN8[/asin]
[asin]B000025AYL[/asin]
[asin]B001FA32CM[/asin]
Thanks for all the recommendations so far! I do have the Schoeck! I will certainly look into the Bruch and more.
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2018, 12:53:59 AM
There are choral works by Bruch: Achilleus, Leonidas and Odysseus, at least the last one has been recorded, and I see it has been described as Bruch's finest secular choral work, not that it necessarily means much.
[asin]B00000IYNL[/asin]
Many consider Bruch to be a better choral composer than a symphonic composer and I tend to agree!
A couple of warnings.
The Boehe work mentioned above was discussed in the Amazon UK forum a few years ago and on the strength of that I bought Vol I. I found it pretty dull; on reporting this the original enthusiast agreed but said the interesting parts were in Vol II. I didn't bother to find out.
Also discussed in the same forum was Nicholas Maw's Odyssey - an orchestral work that is epic or long-winded according to taste. Either way, the work is not based on Homer but 'the sense of spiritual journey and quest' the title invokes.
Nikos Skalkottas: The Return of Ulysses
Great work, and an opportunity to explore more of his music!
[asin]B000E196GE[/asin]
It might interest you to know that the name Penelope is derived from the Ancient Greek word for a mallard duck (penelops), the significance being that mother ducks are known to be highly protective of their eggs and nest (i.e. for Penelope, her son and the family's property and rights).
The Skalkottas and Dallapicola both sound interesting! I have the Maw work and I agree that it is rather dry and of interest only from compositional technical perspective.
I actually bought Priam's Gate the last time I was in California but I somehow left it in my friend's house. He listened to it for ten minutes and was not completely enamoured with the music. But I do appreciate Tippett quite a bit. It's not exactly ear-pleasing music but can be emotionally powerful in its own way.
The Iliad music from Denmark I do know. I remember listening to it once and the Death of Patroclus was the only track I found satisfying.
Thanks to all and keep them coming! I will make an order (probably from Presto in England or JPC in Germany) in two days!
Aeneas - a ballet by Albert Roussel:
Aeneas - Roussel's late choral ballet - was written for Hermann Scherchen and conducted by him at the 1935 Brussels International Exhibition. Its libretto is to words by Joseph Wetterings. Like the much more famous Bacchus et Ariane, this little known ballet addresses a classical subject. The plot tells the tale of Aeneas, founder of Rome and the survivor of Troy. Worldly distractions do nothing to alleviate Aeneas's depression. He rejects his gilded past and turns from his companions. At last freed of the baggage of his glorious past, Rome is revealed in imperial splendour. The ballet ends in an impassioned hymn to the entwined gleaming futures of Aeneas and Rome. The Greeks may have destroyed Troy but a young and indomitable Roman Empire will soon tread down the glories of Greece.
Read more: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/oct04/Roussel_psalm80.htm#ixzz5UCBI7pXk
André Grétry wrote a three-act opera, Andromaque, with a libretto based on the Racine play, which premiered in 1780. In addition, Rossini's two-act 1819 opera, Ermione, is based on Racine's play.
Quote from: pjme on October 17, 2018, 01:04:37 AM
There are several "Homeric symphonies" - by Belgian Lodewijk Mortelmans (on Hyperion) or Austrian Theodor Berger (YT).
And Alan Hovhaness - no.25 is his
Odysseus symphony, also on YouTube. From listening many years ago I recall quite a merry trumpet theme that recurs throughout the piece.
Quote from: Wanderer on October 16, 2018, 11:58:31 PM
This one, of course, has the potential of turning students off both Homer and classical music at the same time. If you use it in class, tell us what happens! $:)
It's very good when Achilles and Patroclus are in the tent together -- and I love Achilles' war cry.
Do you think that Achilles and Patroclus were, like, . . . . . gay lovers . . . ?
It was probably understood that way later on when paiderastia was mostly accepted in Greece but I don't think it is implied in the Homeric texts and while there is plenty of heterosexual love and sex (recall that the "homeric laughter" was by the other gods when the cuckolded Hephaistos had trapped Ares and Aphrodite while they were having sex) I don't think it is clear that Achilleus and Patroklos were more than firends.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2018, 11:09:22 AM
It was probably understood that way later on when paiderastia was mostly accepted in Greece but I don't think it is implied in the Homeric texts and while there is plenty of heterosexual love and sex (recall that the "homeric laughter" was by the other gods when the cuckolded Hephaistos had trapped Ares and Aphrodite while they were having sex) I don't think it is clear that Achilleus and Patroklos were more than firends.
Agreed, certainly not in Homer, although others such as Aeschylus and Plato did depict them as lovers.
I must say I think the replies in this thread are really impressive, there's a lot of music to explore!
Quote from: DaveF on October 17, 2018, 06:28:45 AM
And Alan Hovhaness - no.25 is his Odysseus symphony, also on YouTube. From listening many years ago I recall quite a merry trumpet theme that recurs throughout the piece.
Yes, I like this work as well - one of my favourites by Hovhaness.
Also:
[asin]B00168ZHQC[/asin]
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2018, 11:13:28 AM
, although others such as Aeschylus and Plato did depict them as lovers.
If you could find a reference for that I'd appreciate it. In Delecroix's book on Achilles he suggests that they're lovers, and I argued vehemently with a friend who was reading it at the same time as me that this is nonsense, there's nothing to suggest it in Homer etc.
It was fabulous going back to read the Iliad, by the way, I reread Priam meeting Achlles in his tent at the end- extraordinary humane poetry - and Achilles and Scamander, which I find as exciting now as when I first encountered it when I was at school. The Greek is too hard for me now, it always was hard for me, but now it's painfully so, I had to use a translation.
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2018, 11:13:28 AM
Agreed, certainly not in Homer, although others such as Aeschylus and Plato did depict them as lovers.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 17, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
If you could find a reference for that I'd appreciate it. In Delecroix's book on Achilles he suggests that they're lovers, and I argued vehemently with a friend who was reading it at the same time as me that this is nonsense, there's nothing to suggest it in Homer etc.
It was fabulous going back to read the Iliad, by the way, I reread Priam meeting Achlles in his tent at the end- extraordinary humane poetry - and Achilles and Scamander, which I find as exciting now as when I first encountered it when I was at school. The Greek is too hard for me now, it always was hard for me, but now it's painfully so, I had to use a translation.
It is the ideal thing to argue, since the question can never be answered. Even in the time of Plato the identity of Homer and the origin of the epics was unknown. It's like watching the Charlston Heston movie to find out if Moses had a beard.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 17, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
If you could find a reference for that I'd appreciate it. In Delecroix's book on Achilles he suggests that they're lovers, and I argued vehemently with a friend who was reading it at the same time as me that this is nonsense, there's nothing to suggest it in Homer etc.
It was fabulous going back to read the Iliad, by the way, I reread Priam meeting Achlles in his tent at the end- extraordinary humane poetry - and Achilles and Scamander, which I find as exciting now as when I first encountered it when I was at school. The Greek is too hard for me now, it always was hard for me, but now it's painfully so, I had to use a translation.
I think the intense friendship and Achilles's intense grief in the wake of Patroklus's death suggest to modern ears a passionate love. What they suggested to the people of Homer's era may have been totally different. Maybe warriors did bond that closely without mixing in an erotic element to the relationship. David and Yonatan in the Book of Samuel would be a good parallel, close in time and not too distant in physical space. I don't know of anyone claiming them as homosexual lovers.
Quote from: Mandryka on October 17, 2018, 01:08:25 PM
If you could find a reference for that I'd appreciate it. In Delecroix's book on Achilles he suggests that they're lovers, and I argued vehemently with a friend who was reading it at the same time as me that this is nonsense, there's nothing to suggest it in Homer etc.
It was fabulous going back to read the Iliad, by the way, I reread Priam meeting Achlles in his tent at the end- extraordinary humane poetry - and Achilles and Scamander, which I find as exciting now as when I first encountered it when I was at school. The Greek is too hard for me now, it always was hard for me, but now it's painfully so, I had to use a translation.
From Plato's Symposium
QuoteVery different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroclus-his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroclus was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aeschylus has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtue of love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the lover is more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is more divine; because he is inspired by God. Now Achilles was quite aware, for he had been told by his mother, that he might avoid death and return home, and live to a good old age, if he abstained from slaying Hector. Nevertheless he gave his life to revenge his friend, and dared to die, not only in his defence, but after he was dead Wherefore the gods honoured him even above Alcestis, and sent him to the Islands of the Blest. These are my reasons for affirming that Love is the eldest and noblest and mightiest of the gods; and the chiefest author and giver of virtue in life, and of happiness after death.
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2018, 02:00:41 PM
From Plato's Symposium
Even here I think it is an assumption that "love" is to be equated with with sex.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 17, 2018, 02:23:10 PM
Even here I think it is an assumption that "love" is to be equated with with sex.
I agree. Regarding that Plato quote, we can't even be sure of how Plato would answer the question.* There is after all a reason we call nonerotic love "Platonic love".
And how Athenians of Plato's era answered the question does little to tell us how Homer's audience answered the same question.
*Actually , we might. Does anyone here have access to the Greek text of the Symposium? And if they do, can they tell us which Greek word for "love"--eros, philia, or agape--Plato used in this passage?
Ordered:
Lodewijk Mortelmans: Homerische Symphonie
Cecil Armstrong Gibbs: Symphonie "Odysseus"
Gabriel Faure: Penelope
Arthur Bliss: Morning Heroes (Eine Symphonie für Sprecher, Chor, Orchester)
Michael Tippett: King Priam (Medium: Blu-ray Disc)
Malcolm Arnold: The Return of Odysseus op.119 für Chor & Orchester
And here we have an early symphony by Heinrich von Herzogenberg, Odysseus. It's not a masterpiece, it has its moments but is somewhat diffuse, albeit enjoyable at the end of the day.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61f6SsKKe2L.jpg)
Quote from: springrite on October 17, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Ordered:
Lodewijk Mortelmans: Homerische Symphonie
Cecil Armstrong Gibbs: Symphonie "Odysseus"
Gabriel Faure: Penelope
Arthur Bliss: Morning Heroes (Eine Symphonie für Sprecher, Chor, Orchester)
Michael Tippett: King Priam (Medium: Blu-ray Disc)
Malcolm Arnold: The Return of Odysseus op.119 für Chor & Orchester
I especially like the Bliss work, his masterpiece I think, and John Westbrook's Homer narration in the EMI version is especially fine.
Quote from: North Star on October 17, 2018, 02:00:41 PM
From Plato's Symposium
So according to Plato, Achilles was younger than Patroclus, that Patroclus was his older lover and that Achilles at the time of the Trojan war was pre-pubescent!
What is the word uses for lover and love - if I recall correctly there are special words for sexual love.
I remember once going to a lecture by an American classical philosopher called Martha Nussbaum about Plato's and Aristotle's attitudes towards sexuality, she argued that the atmosphere in Plato's Academy was very gay, that all of this was too much for Aristotle, hence he upped sticks and went to set up his own, straighter, school in the Lyceum. I think she published it as a paper somewhere. I can imagine she would say that Plato was a bit inclined to prejudice the opinion that Achilles and Patroclus were in a sexual relationship.
Quote from: springrite on October 17, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Ordered:
Lodewijk Mortelmans: Homerische Symphonie
Cecil Armstrong Gibbs: Symphonie "Odysseus"
Gabriel Faure: Penelope
Arthur Bliss: Morning Heroes (Eine Symphonie für Sprecher, Chor, Orchester)
Michael Tippett: King Priam (Medium: Blu-ray Disc)
Malcolm Arnold: The Return of Odysseus op.119 für Chor & Orchester
Don't miss out on the Monteverdi, the music that Penelope sings is fabulous, Penelope's opening song Di Misera Regina is one of my favourite operatic things. And there's an interesting « enhancement » of the opera to explore by Henze.
Achilles cannot have been pre-pubescent because on the way to Troy he begets a son, Neoptolemos (who does lots of butchery in the sack of Troy, as far as I recall). Of course, epics are hardly consistent as far as ages go (Penelope has a 20 year old son but is never understood as around 40, o.k. maybe she is 36, but nevertheless the fervor of the suitors lusting for her seems to indicate that age does not play a role here.)
I do not recall if there is a special word for war companions. But otherwise friendship is philia and love eros. eromenos (beloved, usually the younger) would be diffferent from philos.
Quote from: springrite on October 17, 2018, 04:56:05 PM
Ordered:
Lodewijk Mortelmans: Homerische Symphonie
Cecil Armstrong Gibbs: Symphonie "Odysseus"
Gabriel Faure: Penelope
Arthur Bliss: Morning Heroes (Eine Symphonie für Sprecher, Chor, Orchester)
Michael Tippett: King Priam (Medium: Blu-ray Disc)
Malcolm Arnold: The Return of Odysseus op.119 für Chor & Orchester
I bought the Armstrong Gibbs 'Odysseus' Symphony - possibly as part of a Dutton promotion - and now can't remember a single thing about it, good or bad. It doesn't seem to have made much of an impression. I will be interested to know what you make of it.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 18, 2018, 12:54:25 AM
Achilles cannot have been pre-pubescent because on the way to Troy he begets a son, Neoptolemos (who does lots of butchery in the sack of Troy, as far as I recall). Of course, epics are hardly consistent as far as ages go (Penelope has a 20 year old son but is never understood as around 40, o.k. maybe she is 36, but nevertheless the fervor of the suitors lusting for her seems to indicate that age does not play a role here.)
I do not recall if there is a special word for war companions. But otherwise friendship is philia and love eros. eromenos (beloved, usually the younger) would be diffferent from philos.
QuoteRobert Graves mentions the age of 15, citing Homer himself [The Greek Myths, Graves, 160.l], but I haven't been able to track down the exact passage—the version of the Iliad Graves was working from may have had different numbering or may have had passages that are now considered apocryphal. However, he does lead to some useful passages. In one, Phoenix says:
It was to thee that the old horseman Peleus sent me on the day when he sent thee to Agamemnon, forth from Phthia, [440] a mere child, knowing naught as yet of evil war...
Iliad, Murray, ix.438-440
What is interesting about that passage, when you go to Greek, is that Homer uses the term νήπιον ("nhay-pee-on") which not only means child, but in some cases, specifically a pre-pubescent child. (The LSJ entry from the word link makes direct reference to this passage in the Iliad.)
https://mythology.stackexchange.com/questions/1995/how-old-were-paris-and-achilles-at-the-time-of-the-trojan-war
Achilles reaching puberty and begetting a son on the voyage seems plausible, for Ancient Greek mythology at least.
(http://images.perseus.tufts.edu/images/1992.07.1/1992.07.0325)
Patroclus and the beardless Achilles tending to his wound.
Quote from: Jo498 on October 18, 2018, 12:54:25 AM
Achilles cannot have been pre-pubescent because on the way to Troy he begets a son, Neoptolemos (who does lots of butchery in the sack of Troy, as far as I recall). Of course, epics are hardly consistent as far as ages go (Penelope has a 20 year old son but is never understood as around 40, o.k. maybe she is 36, but nevertheless the fervor of the suitors lusting for her seems to indicate that age does not play a role here.)
I do not recall if there is a special word for war companions. But otherwise friendship is philia and love eros. eromenos (beloved, usually the younger) would be diffferent from philos.
Eromenos was the word I was trying to remember this morning, eromenos and erastes.
Claudio Monteverdi: Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria (DVD, with Baker, etc.)
(Eine Produktion der Glyndebourne Opera, Regie: Peter Hall)
Not musical, but there is an interesting series of lectures (unfortunately the pictures are often pretty lame or out of sync with the lecture, although this is a bonus if one mainly listens) on Troy, covering both literature and archaeology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGBmVqvhGYw&index=1&list=PL4pSZ5yOhlInrgikHT5_VSdk-Fm-pM2Dv
Dealing with particularities -
Szymanowski's Metopes for piano - the movements are L'ile des sirenes, Calypso and Nausicaa.
Quote from: Biffo on October 18, 2018, 01:46:45 AM
I bought the Armstrong Gibbs 'Odysseus' Symphony - possibly as part of a Dutton promotion - and now can't remember a single thing about it, good or bad. It doesn't seem to have made much of an impression. I will be interested to know what you make of it.
I must listen to it again as it didn't make much impression on me either. I like the Marco Polo release with two of his symphonies included.
I am very much impressed by King Priam by Tippett, Return of Odysseus by Arnold, and Penelope by Faure. I am thinking about using The Return of Odysseus in my class.
King Priam, while not necessarily a work to please the ear, is a very effective psychological drama. The Arnold work really deserve a place in the repertoire, and Penelope is one of the better French operas I have heard in a long time.
The Gibbs symphony did not leave much impression.
I have a few more to listen to this week.