GMG Classical Music Forum

See thread title.

"Best" is obviously "best for you" i.e. "the one you prefer" i.e. do not bother with objectivity/subjectivity issues.

String quartet 15 in A minor, op.132. III Molto adagio - Andante - incomparable, for me and for one of the characters in Aldous Huxley's Point Counter Point (forgotten his name)

String Quartet No. 10 in E flat, Op. 74 - II. Adagio ma non troppo

For me at the top are the Dankgesang, the one from op.127 and the variations of op.131 (a little bit too "colorful" for a unified mood). Next would be probably the one from op.135, the cavatina, the first one of op.131 and the one from op.59/1. Then op.18/1 and op.74. Least favorite (if it passes for slow) would be op.59/3 (this and the c minor op.18/4 are Beethovens's most overrated quartets, IMO).

For me, the Heiliger Dankgesang (Op. 132: III) is one of the most moving movements (ugh) in the whole string quartet literature.

Oddly my first thought is "Serioso" Op. 95 because it's so concise and says so much in such tiny, hyperemotional little cells of material.

My nominations would be:

#14 - I (my first choice)

Others:

#15 - III
#1 - II
#8 - II

My own favorite is not on the list - the Adagio from the 1st Razumovsky (Op. 59/1).

Was tempted to put the Heiliger Dankgesang, but it seems to be a hard piece to get right in performance, with the contrasting tempo sections and those long meditative stretches.

Op. 18 No. 1 always shocks me. It feels like it should appear a good 6 or 7 quartets later, and in a good performance its climax is nearly terrifying. Especially since the quartet as a while begins so meekly.

Quote from: Brian on October 24, 2018, 03:28:30 PM
Op. 18 No. 1 always shocks me. It feels like it should appear a good 6 or 7 quartets later, and in a good performance its climax is nearly terrifying. Especially since the quartet as a while begins so meekly.

Listening to 18/1 to refresh my memory (Alexander SQ/Foghorn).  The outburst in the slow movement is very strikingly modern sounding.

"[...] actually the second string quartet that Beethoven composed.

"According to Beethoven's friend Karl Amenda, the second movement was inspired by the tomb scene from William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_Quartet_No._1_(Beethoven)

The op.18/1 F major is not really the first quartet, only in publication order. It was the second (#3 was the first although its finale was revised/added later) and revised again after Amenda had seen it (although this revision seems to mainly concern the first mvmt.)
I don't think it begins "meekly". While the first movement is not untypical for (even early) Beethoven in strong thematic concentration and mundane thematic material, it is still quite powerful, not as playful as the first movements of #2, #5 and #6. The pathos of the second movement (maybe with a Rome & Juliet association) seems a stark contrast, but Beethoven had done similar things in piano sonatas several years earlier. The closest parallel (for the slow movement) might be op.10/3.

I was curious and listened to the work last night, the recording by the Cleveland Quartet. I know I've listened to the work before, because I went through the entire Guarneri/Philips cycle a few years back, but I felt no sense of recognition.

The Adagio is certainly the high-point of the work and I like the statement of the primary thematic material and the way the development unfolds. I assume the "climax" that was referred to is the passage near the very end. It didn't make such a strong impression on me, maybe I was expecting too much. The quartet as a whole didn't strike me as being among Beethoven's more successful works.

The real revelation, that came to me when I was about midway though this quartet, is that the first violin in the Cleveland is William Preucil, the Cleveland Orchestra Concertmaster who was fired because of his habit of luring young women into intimate situations through promises of musical mentorship, sexually attacking them, and threatening their careers if they exposed his behavior.

I won't be listening to the Cleveland Quartet again. I was in the middle of a gradual survey of their Beethoven cycle, but I think I will delete the FLAC files and get rid of the discs themselves (if I can find them). He plays the fiddle well enough, but there are enough good violinists out there that I don't have to listen to a degenerate predator.

Listened again to the Endellion Quartet version, and I think the slow movement came off marginally better, but still no thunderbolts.

I think I will try to go through the Beethoven Quartets again, but I have so many cycles where I have only listened to the late quartets (Endellion, Quartetto Italiano, Vermeer, Berg) and others I have not heard at all (Takacs, Guarneri I, Tokyo, Prazak, Artemis). I'm on the Endellion, maybe I'll continue with that.

There are two Cleveland Quartet cycles btw, the earlier of which (on RCA) is Preucil-less. If you like their playing otherwise it may be worth seeking that out, either on LP or asking around for FLACs (I know I have them).

My personal favourite version of Op. 18/1 is probably the Smetana Quartet's BBC recording:
https://www.youtube.com/v/AsBlKM4C36c

Quote from: amw on October 26, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
There are two Cleveland Quartet cycles btw, the earlier of which (on RCA) is Preucil-less. If you like their playing otherwise it may be worth seeking that out, either on LP or asking around for FLACs (I know I have them).

Thanks for the kind offer, but the excellent Telarc sound was a large part of the attraction of this set. I have so many recordings of these works that I despair of listening to them all before I shed this mortal coil.

Preucil is out. I'm still undecided about the Leipzigerquartett, whose principal violinist burst naked into an elderly woman's New York hotel room and tried to murder her. I guess he gets a pass since he has an excuse, he had a bad reaction to the drugs that were given him by the prostitute he had hired that night. Oh dear me.

Stefan Arzberger of the Leipzigers claimed he was given date rape drugs, which was pretty obviously a lie, and tests found no sign of them in his system. That claim was only made after it came out that the prostitute he had hired was transsexual, presumably so he could conceal his fetish for trans people from his wife by claiming it was date rape (he also apparently succeeded in getting the prostitute arrested and I believe she is in prison now, for unrelated charges though—credit card fraud). It seems much more likely that they had a consensual sexual encounter which also involved Arzberger purchasing and ingesting drugs of a somewhat less legal variety, for recreational purposes, something that's very common at the high levels of the classical music world. Since the incident Arzberger quietly dropped his claims of being drugged, at least in court and in press releases, took a plea deal and settled with the woman he assaulted for an undisclosed sum, which suggests his lawyers were also aware the excuse was a fabrication.

The remainder of the Leipziger Streichquartett is also somewhat questionable—they were spotted making transphobic/homophobic comments in the wake of the incident and more recently cellist Matthias Moosdorf has been noted to be an AfD supporter (Germany's far-right political party) posting anti-refugee propaganda on social media, spreading fake news about muslim crime statistics and Soros conspiracy theories etc. There's a German classical music blogger who has been documenting this at intervals.

None of them are quite as bad as Preucil but I'd suggest staying away from them if you are nonwhite, gay, trans, a refugee, etc (and hope their hotel rooms are far away from yours when they go on tour). I still listen to their albums, but I didn't spend any money on the ones I have so that's an easy decision >.>

Quote from: amw on October 27, 2018, 03:33:05 AM
None of them are quite as bad as Preucil but I'd suggest staying away from them if you are nonwhite, gay, trans, a refugee, etc (and hope their hotel rooms are far away from yours when they go on tour). I still listen to their albums, but I didn't spend any money on the ones I have so that's an easy decision >.>

As the son of a Muslim immigrant I am looking askance at the Leipziger Schumann quartet/quintet set on my shelves right now...

Given that political beliefs which directly threaten my family and oppose (theoretically) my own existence are now accepted in the mainstream American and European conservative movements, purging albums because of artists' political views is an alarmingly slippery slope for me. Probably a sizeable percentage of classical musicians over a certain age want my mother deported, and I don't know if I want to think about that.

Fortunately I never developed a taste for the Leipzigers. I think I have 2 or 3 of their discs on my shelves, and it will not discomfort me to bypass them.

The original incident and self-serving story was bad enough. What really turned me off was the entitled reaction from the quartet, that it was an outrage that he was arrested and being charged when it was so obvious that he was the real victim (never mind the old lady he tried to strangle). And what's the world coming to when you can't get a proper transsexual prostitute in New York without all this drama.

I listened to Beethoven's 2nd Quartet last night, Endellion. I liked the quartet, perhaps, a bit better than the first. Still, I don't find it too compelling. As I remember from my previous traversal of the Beethoven Quartets, it is in the Op 59 Quartets that it starts to click with me.

Op. 131 is probably Beethoven's most perfect string quartet, the slow movement is no exception. So my vote is for op. 131.

Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2018, 02:56:58 PM
As the son of a Muslim immigrant I am looking askance at the Leipziger Schumann quartet/quintet set on my shelves right now...

Given that political beliefs which directly threaten my family and oppose (theoretically) my own existence are now accepted in the mainstream American and European conservative movements, purging albums because of artists' political views is an alarmingly slippery slope for me. Probably a sizeable percentage of classical musicians over a certain age want my mother deported, and I don't know if I want to think about that.

As it is now in countries like Germany there are actually many thousands of (recentish) illegal immigrants that are NOT deported, although in legal theory it would be correct to deport them. Because for all  kinds of reasons they are allowed to stay or authorities are simply unable to get them to leave.

There is nobody, except extreme fringe rightists demanding that e.g. second generation Turks in Germany should be deported.

OTOH we have to deal with the fact that a majority of Turks living in Germany support a ruthlessly nationalist leader who ignores the claims of minorities like the Kurds, basically annexed a part of Syria, jailed thousands of journalists or "dissidents" etc.
We also have to "tolerate" an extremist rightwing organization that has more than 10,000 members in Germany and might be the most numerous extremist/prototerrorist group active here. Some of their members have been active in established German parties and many more in Turkish cultural associations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

In brief, that slope is slippery in several directions and one should be very careful treading there, especially when judging from the other side of the world.

I voted for the Op 130, Cavativa. I like its succinct construction. Could have voted for any of the late quarters.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 27, 2018, 03:36:51 PM
The original incident and self-serving story was bad enough. What really turned me off was the entitled reaction from the quartet, that it was an outrage that he was arrested and being charged when it was so obvious that he was the real victim (never mind the old lady he tried to strangle).

Oh it was very definitely a "he was tricked by this nefarious scheming tranny" (when anyone who's ever leafed through a personals ad section knows that trans prostitutes explicitly advertise as such to attract their particular clientele) with significant undertones of "these sorts of people shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets without having a pink triangle sewed onto their clothing or something". I can't recall any of their public statements/press releases even mentioning the old lady. And now that Conrad Mück has departed once again & Arzberger is free to leave the USA he'll probably rejoin the quartet none the worse for wear.

Quote from: Brian on October 27, 2018, 02:56:58 PM
Given that political beliefs which directly threaten my family and oppose (theoretically) my own existence are now accepted in the mainstream American and European conservative movements, purging albums because of artists' political views is an alarmingly slippery slope for me. Probably a sizeable percentage of classical musicians over a certain age want my mother deported, and I don't know if I want to think about that.

It's hard to avoid confronting things like that at a certain point. I think it's possible to appreciate someone's artistry whilst also condemning their personal views or actions, but that only goes so far; everyone draws their line somewhere. For example I'm a Jewish woman, and there are plenty of great composers who were deeply antisemitic (Wagner, Debussy, Stravinsky—though he apparently mellowed out later in life—d'Indy etc), or whose treatment of women was unpleasant, creepy or criminal (Gesualdo the wife murderer, Bruckner reportedly sexually harassing & exposing himself to female students, Janáček stalking Kamila Stösslová etc). At the same time there are other great composers who were committed to antifascism, antiracism, antimisogyny, antihomophobia etc (Bartók and Shostakovich come immediately to mind). I personally try to take all of them as they are, with both good and bad—it's not as though I can make Stravinsky less racist or Saint-Saëns stop molesting boys—although when it comes to the still living, I'm happy to listen to the recordings of a Philip Pickett, William Preucil or James Levine but not so happy as to contribute to their personal wealth in the process.

And.... yeah. I don't think about it much either. The good news is that there are probably fewer Trump/Bolsonaro/Erdoğan supporters among classical musicians than there are among classical listeners. If that counts as good news.

My litmus test, are they alive or are they dead?

I'm not going to boycott someone who is dead and gone, as long as their works don't have a connection to misconduct. But I'll be damned if I'm going to facilitate further abuse by putting money in the pocket of someone who I regard as personally despicable.

Quote from: amw on October 29, 2018, 01:41:39 AMAt the same time there are other great composers who were committed to antifascism, antiracism, antimisogyny, antihomophobia etc (Bartók and Shostakovich come immediately to mind).

I'm not so sure about Bartok. It seems like all of his program works have some sort of misogynistic subtext (Bluebeard, Miraculous Mandarin). And as a grown man he married a child, then when she grew up he divorced her and married another child.

I have no qualms about listening to him, but I do not hold him up as a paragon of virtue.

Now, we're way off topic. Returning.

I listened to Beethoven Quartet No 4 in c-minor. The first Beethoven Quartet that had a finale that I liked. But it has a scherzo and a minuet, but no slow movement. This Beethoven was sure a slow learner when it comes to quartets. I'm despairing of finding a Quartet I can willingly listen to before Op 59. I'm sticking with Op 130.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 30, 2018, 08:45:36 AM
I listened to Beethoven Quartet No 4 in c-minor. The first Beethoven Quartet that had a finale that I liked. But it has a scherzo and a minuet, but no slow movement. This Beethoven was sure a slow learner when it comes to quartets. I'm despairing of finding a Quartet I can willingly listen to before Op 59. I'm sticking with Op 130.

Luckily, the Op 18 set does save best for last. That said, the only one of the six I don't much enjoy is the one with the "Mexican Hat Dance" in the finale, because it's just too distracting. Not really his fault! Kind of like how Liszt's first concerto reminds me of the M*A*S*H theme song.

Quote from: Brian on October 30, 2018, 08:51:31 AM
Luckily, the Op 18 set does save best for last. That said, the only one of the six I don't much enjoy is the one with the "Mexican Hat Dance" in the finale, because it's just too distracting. Not really his fault! Kind of like how Liszt's first concerto reminds me of the M*A*S*H theme song.

Mexican hat dance? Which one is that? Up until Op 18, No 4, it seemed to me that Beethoven's goal for the finale was to have the performers play as many notes in as short a time as humanly possible.

No 5 is up tonight.

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 30, 2018, 08:58:46 AM
Mexican hat dance? Which one is that?

finale of No. 3.

If you don't like No. 6...I can't help you!  ;D

Quote from: Brian on October 30, 2018, 09:19:56 AM
finale of No. 3.

If you don't like No. 6...I can't help you!  ;D

I'm getting there. Actually every quartet had at least one movement that I liked, typically two. I'm searching for one in Op 18 where I will willing listen to all four movements.

Honestly Op.18 no.1 is the one in which I like all four movements, but Op.18 no.6 is also pretty good.

My top choice for slow movements is Op.74 (as mentioned above) after which I would go for the first movement of Op.131, the fifth movement of Op.130, the third movement of Op.132, the variations of Op.127 and then probably the "slow" movement of Op.59 no.3 which someone mentioned actively disliking above. I like 59/3 because of the repetitive, obsessive nature of it, which is probably the reason others dislike it.

Okay, I liked all four movements of Op 18, No 5. The outer movements were solid, the menuetto was charming, and the slow movement was a theme and variation based on an astonishingly dull theme which went interesting places. I made a discovery about the Endellion Quartet recording. I was listening to softly. Turning up the volume a bit allowed the sound to bloom. It is a sort of dry, up-front recording so the range between loud enough and too loud is narrow.