The problem was that the generic Holst thread is my 'Non-Planets Holst' which has caused confusion. So here is a Planets thread.
My favourites are by Steinberg, Boult (earliest and latest recordings) and I like the controversial Herrmann version.
There's a pre-existing ginormous thread on the Planets here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20422.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20422.0.html)
I'm in the process of reading it to rediscover what I like ....
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on October 29, 2018, 01:16:54 PM
There's a pre-existing ginormous thread on the Planets here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20422.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20422.0.html)
I'm in the process of reading it to rediscover what I like ....
Let the rediscovery begin!
"Infectious bounce"! Remember that, Karl? And "twinkling affection"?
Ha, they don't write 'em like that any more .
(He said, bouncing affectionately and infectiously twinkling off into the distance...)
Quote from: vandermolen on October 29, 2018, 12:58:56 PMThe problem was that the generic Holst thread is my 'Non-Planets Holst' which has caused confusion. So here is a Planets thread. My favourites are by Steinberg, Boult (earliest and latest recordings) and I like the controversial Herrmann version.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on October 29, 2018, 10:35:40 AM
I'm not an expert about the The Planets countless recordings, but yesterday I listened to a Saturn that impressed me a lot, specifically from this recording:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71JEmXI3lzL._SX425_.jpg)
I rediscovered this stunning timeless piece, quite possibly my favorite planet along with Uranus (which shares the wizardry with the Dukas's The Sorcerer's Apprentice in a sort of way BTW!). Karajan was a very good conductor, despite many criticisms from some.
There used to be a
Planets thread where all extant recordings - more than 90 - have been discussed; the highlight being Peter Power Pop's thorough and very enjoyable survey with a review of each of them. In his final verdict, the Karajan was ranked 39th, Steinberg 48th, the Herrmann not-so-very controversial at a solid 83rd place 8), the early Boult 10th and the later Boult 34th. BTW, I myself happen to own Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in his ranking and completely agree! :D
Recommended! https://petersplanets.wordpress.com 8)
Here it is:
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on October 29, 2018, 01:16:54 PM
There's a pre-existing ginormous thread on the Planets here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20422.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20422.0.html)
Quote from: Christo on October 29, 2018, 10:57:38 PM
There used to be a Planets thread where all extant recordings - more than 90 - have been discussed; the highlight being Peter Power Pop's thorough and very enjoyable survey with a review of each of them. In his final verdict, the Karajan was ranked 39th, Steinberg 48th, the Herrmann not-so-very controversial at a solid 83rd place 8), the early Boult 10th and the later Boult 34th. BTW, I myself happen to own Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in his ranking and completely agree! :D
Recommended! https://petersplanets.wordpress.com 8)
Here it is:
Thanks. Peter's list is very interesting. Of his top few I think that Sargent is my favourite on the CFP disc with a fine 'Beni Mora' etc. I don't know the Ozawa version at all. The Dutoit is indeed excellent.
Quote from: Elgarian Redux on October 29, 2018, 01:33:48 PM
"Infectious bounce"! Remember that, Karl? And "twinkling affection"?
Ha, they don't write 'em like that any more .
Who could forget!
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2018, 01:22:01 AM
Thanks. Peter's list is very interesting. Of his top few I think that Sargent is my favourite on the CFP disc with a fine 'Beni Mora' etc. I don't know the Ozawa version at all. The Dutoitbiscindeed excellent.
Interesting that he rates Boult's 1954 recording so highly. The Fanfare reviewers seem to feel that it's the weakest of his 5 recordings. Listening to it now on Tidal (on my TV, so I can't really judge the quality of the transfer. You wouldn't play this as an orchestral spectacular anyway.)
https://tidal.com/album/9466528 or search "planets promenade".
When we discussed The Planets in the Amazon UK forum I was taken aback by the near hysterical response when I failed to express total uncritical admiration: some people seem to have a deep emotional attachment to this work. For no particular reason - Jupiter apart - I came to the complete work relatively late in life (well over 40). It was in a Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra concert conducted by Andrew Litton (a respectable 7th with the Dallas SO). Over the years I have accumulated a number of recordings but I can't say it is a massive favourite.
When the work was reviewed on BBC R3 Building a Library a few years ago the surprising 1st choice was Yoel Levi and the Atlanta SO (27th in PP). I bought a copy and it strikes me as a fine performance. I also have -
Rattle/Philharmonia - no feelings either way
Boult/LPO (1979) - I suppose Boult is the essential conductor for this work, no idea how his performances changed over the years
Steinberg/Boston SO - another fine perfromance, must listen to it again soon
Solti/LPO - came as part of a two-disc compilation, can't remember much about it
Mehta/LAPO - beautiful but bland; 11th in PP and favourite with several Amazonians
I also have a live performance from Barbirolli and the NYPO, live in Carnegie Hall, 1959. A non-starter for two reasons, sonically rather ropey but also JB only does five movements (even then one NY critic found the work too long). There is another live recording of the five movement version from Rome(?) but I haven't heard it. Boult gave the first performance in a semi-public concert; in the first proper public performance he only condcuted five movements and Holst wasn't best pleased.
Thanks for responses. I like The Planets, especially Saturn but I listen to works like the Choral Symphony more often and also The Cloud Messenger. I have many recordings of The Planets. I think that Steinberg's is my current favourite. Surprisingly there is a fine recording of him conducting the 'Five Tudor Portraits' by Vaughan Williams.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2018, 02:15:54 AM
Thanks for responses. I like The Planets, especially Saturn but I listen to works like the Choral Symphony more often and also The Cloud Messenger. I have many recordings of The Planets. I think that Steinberg's is my current favourite. Surprisingly there is a fine recording of him conducting the 'Five Tudor Portraits' by Vaughan Williams.
There is a performance in the Steinberg Icon box but the sound was so appalling I couldn't finish it; perhaps I will have to give it another try.
I find
The Cloud Messenger very frustrating; there is some wonderful music in it but why did Holst insist on setting all the verses? There is too much hovering and anticipating, if it was 10 minutes shorter it would probably be Holst's masterpiece.
I've probably been overexposed to the work over the years, but perhaps have not listened to it with much care (put away the laptop and other distractions).
I have the Dutoit, of course, but I haven't listened to it in a long time. I added a few from Peter's list like Goodman, Judd, Handley and Litton to my Tidal favorites for later listening (I could not find the Ozawa there). Also, perhaps I should take the Stokowski and Bernstein recordings more seriously than I have in the past.
Quote from: Biffo on October 30, 2018, 02:25:06 AM
There is a performance in the Steinberg Icon box but the sound was so appalling I couldn't finish it; perhaps I will have to give it another try.
I find The Cloud Messenger very frustrating; there is some wonderful music in it but why did Holst insist on setting all the verses? There is too much hovering and anticipating, if it was 10 minutes shorter it would probably be Holst's masterpiece.
I agree about The Cloud Messenger - it has a wonderful proto-minimalist section which I love but there are perhaps too many longuers as well. I have the Steinberg VW in an Albion Records release, maybe it is a better transfer than the Icon box.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2018, 02:34:19 AM
I agree about The Cloud Messenger - it has a wonderful proto-minimalist section which I love but there are perhaps too many longuers as well. I have the Steinberg VW in an Albion Records release, maybe it is a better transfer than the Icon box.
The recording in the Icon box is with the Pittsburgh SO & Mendelssohn Choir etc; it dates from November 1952. Perhaps the Albion recording is a different performance.
Edit: Just given the disc another spin and it is as bad as I remembered. It has allegedly been remastered but it is still horrible. I could only bear about 4 minutes of it, I wouldn't want to hear the lovely Jane Scroop in such appalling sound.
The Planets is Holst's March from The Love for Three Oranges . . . .
This might sound ridiculous, but I "discovered" The Planets quite recently, 5 years ago maybe. I had only heart some planets (Mars) and found it a bit uninsteresting, but I got the new Naxos disc and heart the other planets. Hearing all of them instead of just Mars makes the work much more interesting and I was surprised about the orchesteral 'vibes' of the more calm planets (e.g. Saturnus).
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2018, 03:04:39 AM
The Planets is Holst's March from The Love for Three Oranges . . . .
Which, more or less, reappears as the 'March of the Ewoks' from Star Wars: 'Return of the Jedi'.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2018, 05:00:00 AM
This might sound ridiculous, but I "discovered" The Planets quite recently, 5 years ago maybe. I had only heart some planets (Mars) and found it a bit uninsteresting, but I got the new Naxos disc and heart the other planets. Hearing all of them instead of just Mars makes the work much more interesting and I was surprised about the orchesteral 'vibes' of the more calm planets (e.g. Saturnus).
Saturn was Holst's favourite and mine too.
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2018, 05:00:00 AM
This might sound ridiculous, but I "discovered" The Planets quite recently, 5 years ago maybe. I had only heart some planets (Mars) and found it a bit uninsteresting, but I got the new Naxos disc and heart the other planets. Hearing all of them instead of just Mars makes the work much more interesting and I was surprised about the orchesteral 'vibes' of the more calm planets (e.g. Saturnus).
I really like Lloyd-Jones in British Music. I should give that one a listen.
Quote from: vandermolen on October 30, 2018, 05:05:30 AM
Saturn was Holst's favourite and mine too.
Yeah. Why they always play 'Mars' on radio, when the work has so much more to offer...
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2018, 05:17:40 AM
Yeah. Why they always play 'Mars' on radio, when the work has so much more to offer...
Because they recognize it from
Star Wars 8)
Quote from: Daverz on October 30, 2018, 05:05:46 AM
I really like Lloyd-Jones in British Music. I should give that one a listen.
I'm very satisfied with the disc, but I don't know how it compares to the competition.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2018, 05:18:23 AM
Because they recognize it from Star Wars 8)
So why not play John Williams if you want
Star Wars?
When Pluto was downgraded to a minor planet some bright spark had the idea of commissioning four contemporary composers to depict, if that is the right word, four asteroids as companions to Holst's masterpiece. No one seemed aware that Holst was interested in the astrological connotations of the planets not their physical properties.
Someone posted on this forum (?) a link to performances of the works on YouTube. All four composers had the same idea - a cold, barren distant object. From what I can remember only one of the pieces was in any way distinctive, the other three were pretty much interchangeable. I can't recall the names of the composers involved.
Does anyone else remember this thread, I can't find it.
Quote from: Biffo on October 30, 2018, 05:23:39 AM
When Pluto was downgraded to a minor planet some bright spark had the idea of commissioning four contemporary composers to depict, if that is the right word, four asteroids as companions to Holst's masterpiece. No one seemed aware that Holst was interested in the astrological connotations of the planets not their physical properties.
Exactly.
His most popular work, yet not everyone can be bothered to mark what the composer meant . . . .
Quote from: 71 dB on October 30, 2018, 05:23:07 AM
So why not play John Williams if you want Star Wars?
There is a Double Decca that has The Planets, Star Wars Suite and Also Sprach Zarathustra, all from Mehta and the Los Angeles PO. It is quite pricey at the moment but you get three recognisable bits from the movies.
Quote from: Biffo on October 30, 2018, 05:31:47 AM
There is a Double Decca that has The Planets, Star Wars Suite and Also Sprach Zarathustra, all from Mehta and the Los Angeles PO. It is quite pricey at the moment but you get three recognisable bits from the movies.
And that is the answer: marketing.
Quote from: Biffo on October 30, 2018, 05:23:39 AM
When Pluto was downgraded to a minor planet some bright spark had the idea of commissioning four contemporary composers to depict, if that is the right word, four asteroids as companions to Holst's masterpiece. No one seemed aware that Holst was interested in the astrological connotations of the planets not their physical properties.
Someone posted on this forum (?) a link to performances of the works on YouTube. All four composers had the same idea - a cold, barren distant object. From what I can remember only one of the pieces was in any way distinctive, the other three were pretty much interchangeable. I can't recall the names of the composers involved.
Does anyone else remember this thread, I can't find it.
Not sure where the thread is but I thought that 'Pluto' was commissioned shortly before the astronomers decided that Pluto (the place) wasn't a real planet after all! This greatly amused me as I did not like the idea of another composer composing an additional movement to the Planets but at least Colin Matthews did bring back Neptune at the very end.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2018, 05:35:02 AM
And that is the answer: marketing.
That is probably the rationale for the Double Decca but the Holst and Strauss had been released separately. The Strauss LP had a very striking cover on its original release. I bought it after seeing
2001 etc, before that the only Strausses (Straussen?) I had heard of wrote waltzes. I was very young at the time.
Quote from: Biffo on October 30, 2018, 06:09:15 AM
That is probably the rationale for the Double Decca but the Holst and Strauss had been released separately. The Strauss LP had a very striking cover on its original release. I bought it after seeing 2001 etc, before that the only Strausses (Straussen?) I had heard of wrote waltzes. I was very young at the time.
There is a nice history of cinema being an
entrée to classical music. It's kind of a backwash IMO when the idea is "This makes John Williams a classical composer!" But . . . that is a beast which has been flogged elsewhere.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 30, 2018, 06:33:03 AM
There is a nice history of cinema being an entrée to classical music. It's kind of a backwash IMO when the idea is "This makes John Williams a classical composer!" But . . . that is a beast which has been flogged elsewhere.
...Why you.... >:(
I will say it, John Williams is a very talented classical composer.
You will say the score to Star Wars is all "derivative." I will grant you that. Find me some music that is not derivative of something. It is brilliantly executed orchestral music that has a sound all it's own.
My fault for the tangent. I'll pay the fine. I'll take it over here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13493.msg1181076.html#msg1181076).
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on October 30, 2018, 08:40:28 AM
I will say it, John Williams is a very talented classical composer.
You will say the score to Star Wars is all "derivative." I will grant you that. Find me some music that is not derivative of something. It is brilliantly executed orchestral music that has a sound all it's own.
John Williams may not be one of the best classical composers in history, but he is one of the best
movie music composers in history if not THE best (to me he is). The music of Star Wars is movie music. It's not supposed to be original. It's supposed to support the movie and have the correct emotional content and it has. John Williams' genius is in "stealing/borrowing" from the perfect places (and having a huge talent for melodic themes).
This thread reeks of snobbery right now. Thank you Ghost of Baron Scarpia for applying the air freshener.
Yet, I cannot see why The Planets should be associated with film music that came a couple of decades later. The only connection is, that many composers of film music in the mid 20th century used it as a source of inspiration - but there's no such connection the other way around. Whatever one holds of The Planets, it's completely original in this sense.
I don't want to push a generalisation too far but rather than any film more people in the UK came to The Planets through the patriotic hymn 'I vow to thee my country' along with 'Jupiter'.
Quote from: Maestro267 on October 30, 2018, 10:26:32 AM
This thread reeks of snobbery right now.
I admitted that my remark was an intrusive parenthesis.
I decline the suggestion that I am a snob, thank you very much.
No, no, don't bother to apologize.
I just long for the old days, of infectious planetary bounce and twinkling orbital affection. Ah, we knew a thing or two about The Planets back then, Karl, Gustav, and me.
I'm still jiggered that, when I look at Mars, I do not see the Mars of now, but the Mars of three minutes ago . . . .
Holst: The Planets [Lloyd-Jones]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71YPIp6zCOL._AC_SL1416_.jpg)
There is nothing that I do not like about this version of The Planets; the interpretation, the performances and the sound quality all hold their own with most of the rest of the field that I have heard. Mars is particularly assertive, bellicose and even ferocious; it is an excellent presentation. Venus is a supreme contrast here being as light as gossamer and eternally serene. Mercury flits about wonderfully on lithe wings. Jupiter is big, bold and brash to begin with but eventually controls himself. The big, main theme is a powerful, choral like affair. Saturn is a suitably measured, contemplative and intense reading with plenty of gravitas. Uranus is brash, ever the showman, is full of tricks and has great presence. Neptune is suitably remote, atmospheric and delicate and the choir is eerie and atmospheric.
Lloyd-Jones also includes Pluto, The Renewer written by Colin Matthews for those who may be interested, but I discount it.
I think that 'Pluto' was a very bad idea, especially as it was downgraded from being a planet just at the time it was written! At least Matthews had the decency to bring back the end of Neptune for the conclusion.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 19, 2020, 08:07:08 AM
I think that 'Pluto' was a very bad idea, especially as it was downgraded from being a planet just at the time it was written! At least Matthews had the decency to bring back the end of Neptune for the conclusion.
Indeed. Either way the music is not by Holst so totally superfluous.
Quote from: aligreto on August 19, 2020, 10:40:14 AM
Indeed. Either way the music is not by Holst so totally superfluous.
Agreed - totally pointless IMO.
I've recently been listening to a few versions and I think that a criterion for telling whether a recording of this work is a good one or not is whether they try to substitute a bassoon for the bass oboe in Saturn. It won't do!
The bass oboe in Previn's recording is particularly good.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 19, 2020, 11:50:56 AM
Agreed - totally pointless IMO.
This reminded me of another pointless exercise. Several years ago the Berlin Philharmonic/Simon Rattle (?) commissioned four (five?) additional minor planets. Given that the minor planets are all cold, distant worlds all the works reflected this ie. all sounded pretty much the same. To me, only one of them had any originality. I now can't remember any of the composers (all new to me) or any of the planets. I am not even sure if the post with its links was in this forum. Anyone else remember this?
From german Wiki:
Im März 1972 dirigierte Leonard Bernstein in seinem "Young People's Concert" die Planeten-Suite und ergänzte sie mit einer Improvisation namens "Pluto, the Unpredictable".[7]
Im Jahre 2000 komponierte Colin Matthews auf Anregung des Dirigenten Kent Nagano für das Hallé-Orchester einen achten Satz ,,Pluto, der Erneuerer" (Pluto, the Renewer), der dem damals noch als Planet eingestuften, vier Jahre vor Holsts Tod entdeckten Pluto gewidmet ist. Die Uraufführung des Werkes von Matthews fand mit dem Hallé-Orchester unter Nagano am 11. November 2000 in Manchester statt. Seither wird es oft in neueren CD-Aufnahmen miteingespielt.
2006 wurden unter dem Konzert-Titel Ad Astra vier weitere Werke, die inspirativ mit der Holst-Suite in Verbindung stehen, durch die Berliner Philharmoniker unter Sir Simon Rattle uraufgeführt, und zwar von Kaija Saariaho (Asteroid 4179: Toutatis), Matthias Pintscher (towards Osiris), Mark-Anthony Turnage (Ceres) und Brett Dean (Komarov's Fall).
2014 schuf schließlich als letzte Ergänzung Clément Mepas aus Mâcon (Frankreich) den Satz ,,Erde" ( Terre ), auch genannt ,,Erde: Lebensbringerin".[8][9]
https://youtu.be/MbHQ6eWANIo
Quote from: pjme on August 20, 2020, 01:52:42 AM
From german Wiki:
Im März 1972 dirigierte Leonard Bernstein in seinem "Young People's Concert" die Planeten-Suite und ergänzte sie mit einer Improvisation namens "Pluto, the Unpredictable".[7]
Im Jahre 2000 komponierte Colin Matthews auf Anregung des Dirigenten Kent Nagano für das Hallé-Orchester einen achten Satz ,,Pluto, der Erneuerer" (Pluto, the Renewer), der dem damals noch als Planet eingestuften, vier Jahre vor Holsts Tod entdeckten Pluto gewidmet ist. Die Uraufführung des Werkes von Matthews fand mit dem Hallé-Orchester unter Nagano am 11. November 2000 in Manchester statt. Seither wird es oft in neueren CD-Aufnahmen miteingespielt.
2006 wurden unter dem Konzert-Titel Ad Astra vier weitere Werke, die inspirativ mit der Holst-Suite in Verbindung stehen, durch die Berliner Philharmoniker unter Sir Simon Rattle uraufgeführt, und zwar von Kaija Saariaho (Asteroid 4179: Toutatis), Matthias Pintscher (towards Osiris), Mark-Anthony Turnage (Ceres) und Brett Dean (Komarov's Fall).
2014 schuf schließlich als letzte Ergänzung Clément Mepas aus Mâcon (Frankreich) den Satz ,,Erde" ( Terre ), auch genannt ,,Erde: Lebensbringerin".[8][9]
https://youtu.be/MbHQ6eWANIo
ja Saarhio
The works in the 2006 concert must be the ones I was thinking of - only the piece by Kaija Saariaho made any impression, the others seemed pretty much interchangeable. I had forgotten one of the composers was Turnage - I had heard of him.