Allow me to put this out there first and foremost...
----------------- D I S C L A I M E R -----------------
DO NOT argue with someone about their choice of composers. All of these lists will be subjective and everyone has a right to their views no matter how crazy we think the other person's choices are. Let's be kind to each other and not turn this into some kind of flamewar or something unnecessarily negative. THANK YOU EVERYONE!
Now, let's begin...
I want you all to pick three composers who you feel to be unfairly neglected or simply unappreciated. I would also like to know why you chose each of the composers in your list as I think it'll be a lot more interesting knowing this rather than simply listing names.
I've already got my list ready to go, but I'd love someone else to go first, so the ball is your court.
Lubomyr Melnyck
He is a Canadian composer, and I programmed him on radio 40 years ago. I guess you could call him broadly minimalist, but I do not think he would describe himself that way. His approach is very different from the well known guys like Glass or Reich anyway. His best known piece is KMH, which has a cult following.
Virgil Thomson
In fact, we are in a mini VT boomlet these past few years, with new recordings of much of his music, including Four Saints in Three Acts. Saints has actually seen several productions in recent years. His orchestral music is his best known, but his best stuff involves voice. Saints and The Feast Of Love are particular favorites of mine.
Robert Moran
Another quasi-minimalist who has gotten a little notice off and on (he once collaborated with Glass long ago). His Trinity Requiem is gloriously beautiful.
Good, I'm glad you went first, Ken. Thanks for the list. 8)
My turn (I suppose) -
George Enescu:
(https://www.musicologie.org/Biographies/e/i/enescu_1.jpg)
Outside of Romania, he's mainly known for his Romanian Rhapsody No. 1 and I think it's a shame this is the work that gets the most exposure. It hardly demonstrates his mastery of the different genres like chamber music, solo piano, and opera. He was a remarkable orchestrator, but I feel that his chamber music gets to the heart more than anything he wrote for the orchestra (although, to be fair, he composed some incredibly fine orchestral works like Vox Maris, Symphony No. 3, Suite for Orchestra No. 3, "Villageoise", among others). I think he deserves to be better known as the mature works reveal a complicated man displaying emotions that don't always present themselves in the earlier works.
Karl Amadeus Hartmann:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/tr/1/1c/Hartmann1963Neumeister.jpeg)
After World War II, it seems K. A. Hartmann's music was going to be one of the greatest things to come out of post-war Germany, but the sad reality is he's just not well-known today and there doesn't seem to be much interest in his music these days for some odd reason. His music has an incredible vitality and energy to it that is highly effective. I think the fact that he remained in Germany during WWII may have harmed his reputation and could very well be why we don't get to hear his music much in the concert hall. I think the most popular work or one that's still played with any frequency is Concerto funèbre. I believe he was one of the foremost symphonists of the last half of the 20th Century, but you'd never know it because these symphonies aren't performed much. A real shame!
Bohuslav Martinů:
(https://redmayor.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/martinu.jpg)
For some strange reason Martinů hasn't caught on outside of the Czech Republic. Sure, there are many recordings of his music available, but if you take a deeper look you'll notice that most of them are released on the Czech label Supraphon. Like the afore mentioned composers, I feel that his music deserves wider exposure because he has an identifiable sound and style of his own. You know it's a Martinů work from the first couple measures and sometimes at the very start of a work. I've loved his music for years and have done my best to promote it whenever I can and I'm sure many here are tired of me talking about this composer, but I can't help it! He deserves all of the accolades one can hurl upon him.
Great thread idea:
Stanley Bate
I think that his Third and Fourth symphonies are terrific, inspiriting and darkly moving with a 'triumph against the odds' kind of feel to them. He seems to have been largely ignored by the British musical establishment - invariably a prerequisite for composers that I like and ended up, apparently, committing suicide. Very sad.
Ronald Lo Presti
There is hardly anything on CD but I found 'The Masks' on a Koch CD intensely moving despite its brevity. Thanks to jowcol of this forum I have discovered more of his fine music. His musical tribute to President Kennedy is very powerful and moving. Like the President Lo Presti died too young.
Malcolm Williamson
Although he bacame 'Master of the Queen's Musick' he ran into all kinds of trouble, through not completing Royal commissions, personal problems, alcoholism etc. and yet I find his music of great interest, in particular his First Symphony 'Elevamini', the Sinfonia Concerante and the Violin Concerto with its eloquent and moving finale, not to mention the 'Prologue' from his unfinished film score for 'Watership Down' (original version).
V difficult to choose.
And here they are (Bate, Williamson and Lo Presti):
(//)
Virgil Thomson hired Peggy Granville-Hicks at the NY Tribune. She was married to Stanley Bate.
He wrote about him briefly https://books.google.ca/books?id=mDwZCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA148-IA237&lpg=PA148-IA237&dq=stanley+bate+Virgil+Thomson&source=bl&ots=hQKfhW_F7Z&sig=ACfU3U1FSTGgKVmlDiGbgUlOnpdQCyJFew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin9tDX95jhAhWHn4MKHYC_BCIQ6AEwBXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=stanley%20bate%20Virgil%20Thomson&f=false (https://books.google.ca/books?id=mDwZCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA148-IA237&lpg=PA148-IA237&dq=stanley+bate+Virgil+Thomson&source=bl&ots=hQKfhW_F7Z&sig=ACfU3U1FSTGgKVmlDiGbgUlOnpdQCyJFew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin9tDX95jhAhWHn4MKHYC_BCIQ6AEwBXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=stanley%20bate%20Virgil%20Thomson&f=false)
Quote from: Ken B on March 23, 2019, 10:56:57 AM
Virgil Thomson hired Peggy Granville-Hicks at the NY Tribune. She was married to Stanley Bate.
He wrote about him briefly https://books.google.ca/books?id=mDwZCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA148-IA237&lpg=PA148-IA237&dq=stanley+bate+Virgil+Thomson&source=bl&ots=hQKfhW_F7Z&sig=ACfU3U1FSTGgKVmlDiGbgUlOnpdQCyJFew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin9tDX95jhAhWHn4MKHYC_BCIQ6AEwBXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=stanley%20bate%20Virgil%20Thomson&f=false (https://books.google.ca/books?id=mDwZCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA148-IA237&lpg=PA148-IA237&dq=stanley+bate+Virgil+Thomson&source=bl&ots=hQKfhW_F7Z&sig=ACfU3U1FSTGgKVmlDiGbgUlOnpdQCyJFew&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwin9tDX95jhAhWHn4MKHYC_BCIQ6AEwBXoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=stanley%20bate%20Virgil%20Thomson&f=false)
Sad but very interesting - thanks.
Thanks for your contribution, Jeffrey. 8)
Rued Langgaard: He lived eclipsed by the fame of his compatriot Nielsen. Unfortunately, many of his works didn't receive the recognition they deserved at their time. I find that situation unfair, so there is much creativity in his music. He may be called old-fashioned, but it doesn't mean that his music lacks craftsmanship or development. Personally I consider the mystical Music of the Spheres and the thought-provoking Symphony No. 4 as his unquestionable masterpieces. I should also include Antikrist for that matter.
Eduard Tubin: One of the greatest symphonists from the 20th century, his music possesses all the features to think very highly of him as a composer of a significant stature. For me, Tubin is the best composer from Estonia (besides Arvo Pärt) but I don't know many people who have some idea of his style. And just a few of recording labels spread his works. It would be much more interesting if they record something by him instead of, for example, the 1000+ recording of the Beethoven symphonies. Marketing issues, yes, but come on, do we really need more recordings of works like those, when already there are many for every taste? ::)
Charles-Valentin Alkan: People tend to know Liszt as the supreme virtuoso pianist-composer, but Alkan may be even more fascinating. I don't feel that his contribution to the piano repertoire is not utterly recognized nowadays.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 23, 2019, 06:43:24 PM
Thanks for your contribution, Jeffrey. 8)
Always a pleasure John - but so difficult to choose. Most of the composers I like are unfairly neglected or 'deservedly neglected' according to my brother. 8)
John Williams - he has always been described as a copycat. I do not agree with this at all.
William Walton - while he's not exactly hated he suffers from the same kind of neglect as most English composers.
Rued Langgaard - much like Nielsen, Danish composers are often underrated.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 23, 2019, 10:37:03 AMStanley Bate
I think that his Third and Fourth symphonies are terrific, inspiriting and darkly moving with a 'triumph against the odds' kind of feel to them. He seems to have been largely ignored by the British musical establishment - invariably a prerequisite for composers that I like and ended up, apparently, committing suicide. Very sad.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 23, 2019, 09:44:17 PMEduard Tubin: One of the greatest symphonists from the 20th century, his music possesses all the features to think very highly of him as a composer of a significant stature.
Let me add one more, far lesser-known composer (also in his own country),
Léon Orthel (1905-1985). The only piece I'd heard in my youth was his late, then new, atmospheric, orchestral
Evocazione Op. 83 (1977) and only a couple of years ago there came a release of some historic recordings of his first four symphonies - the ones under conductor Willem van Otterloo very fine BTW. The
Third (1943), another war symphony, came as a shock and the
Second (1940),
Piccola Sinfonia, proved to be a refined master piece. The whole cycle - there are six symphonies - cry for a modern recording as does all of his orchestral work.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 05:16:48 AM
Let me add one more, far lesser-known composer (also in his own country), Léon Orthel (1905-1985). The only piece I'd heard in my youth was his late, then new, atmospheric, orchestral Evocazione Op. 83 (1977) and only a couple of years ago there came a release of some historic recordings of his first four symphonies - the ones under conductor Willem van Otterloo very fine BTW. The Third (1943), another war symphony, came as a shock and the Second (1940), Piccola Sinfonia, proved to be a refined master piece. The whole cycle - there are six symphonies - cry for a modern recording as does all of his orchestral work.
+ 1. Orthel is the most interesting dutch composer I've come across.
Mind you, there's certainly a case for declaring the Dutch the most unfairly neglected composers of all: De Lange, Zweers, Vermeulen, Pijper, Röntgen, Andriessen. Conductor van Otterloo himself was no slouch as a composer.
Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 05:53:29 AM
+ 1. Orthel is the most interesting dutch composer I've come across.
Mind you, there's certainly a case for declaring the Dutch the most unfairly neglected composers of all: De Lange, Zweers, Vermeulen, Pijper, Röntgen, Andriessen. Conductor van Otterloo himself was no slouch as a composer.
Douwe Eisenga. Simeon ten Holt.
Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 05:53:29 AM
+ 1. Orthel is the most interesting dutch composer I've come across.
Mind you, there's certainly a case for declaring the Dutch the most unfairly neglected composers of all: De Lange, Zweers, Vermeulen, Pijper, Röntgen, Andriessen. Conductor van Otterloo himself was no slouch as a composer.
I wonder how you'd rank Henk Badings amongst Dutch composers?
Very well indeed.
Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 06:07:45 AM
Very well indeed.
8)
You'll have to excuse my own ignorance as I know next to nothing about Dutch composers as they've never really been a focal point for me.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 23, 2019, 09:44:17 PM
Rued Langgaard: He lived eclipsed by the fame of his compatriot Nielsen. Unfortunately, many of his works didn't receive the recognition they deserved at their time. I find that situation unfair, so there is much creativity in his music. He may be called old-fashioned, but it doesn't mean that his music lacks craftsmanship or development. Personally I consider the mystical Music of the Spheres and the thought-provoking Symphony No. 4 as his unquestionable masterpieces. I should also include Antikrist for that matter.
Eduard Tubin: One of the greatest symphonists from the 20th century, his music possesses all the features to think very highly of him as a composer of a significant stature. For me, Tubin is the best composer from Estonia (besides Arvo Pärt) but I don't know many people who have some idea of his style. And just a few of recording labels spread his works. It would be much more interesting if they record something by him instead of, for example, the 1000+ recording of the Beethoven symphonies. Marketing issues, yes, but come on, do we really need more recordings of works like those, when already there are many for every taste? ::)
Langgaard's
Music of the Spheres should be a part of the standard repertoire. 'Nuff said! 8)
I love Tubin, but my biggest issue with him, and it's my own issue, is the memorability of his music. I love his music as it's unfolding in my ears, but after that,
puff...it's gone. The Järvi BIS series is still the 'gold standard' (sorry, Maestro Volmer). I do have to thank Volmer, however, for bringing the complete
Kraft to the public's attention as only the suite from Järvi was recorded previously. I'd like to get to know Tubin's chamber music, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of options available.
Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 05:53:29 AM
+ 1. Orthel is the most interesting dutch composer I've come across.
Mind you, there's certainly a case for declaring the Dutch the most unfairly neglected composers of all: De Lange, Zweers, Vermeulen, Pijper, Röntgen, Andriessen. Conductor van Otterloo himself was no slouch as a composer.
Did you hear Willem van Otterloo's dramatic Symphony No. 2, restored by Otto Ketting? It's on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/CSu1w5F6lyI&t=240s
Quote from: Ken B on March 24, 2019, 06:04:07 AM
Douwe Eisenga. Simeon ten Holt.
Douwe Eisenga being the outsider here, glad to learn that you know him, because very few in this country do; I myself have subscribed to his own, weekly, online music offerings :-)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 06:05:38 AM
I wonder how you'd rank Henk Badings amongst Dutch composers?
All of them and some more. My personal favourite is Hendrik Andriessen, but composers that I often play include Pieter Hellendaal (18th c.), Johan Willem Wilms, Anton Fodor & Johannes Verhulst (19th) and more from the last century, including Alphons Diepenbrock, Jan van Gilse, Cornelis Dopper, Henriëtte Bosmans, Hans Henkemans, Oscar van Hemel, Anthon van der Horst, Lex van Delden, Jurriaan Andriessen, Hans Kox, Daan Manneke, Joep Franssens, Jacob ter Veldhuis, Joey Roukens, and a handful that I forget. :D
Completely unknown, but a pleasant surprise to listen to, is composer Erik Lotichius (1929-2015), a Dutch Poulenc. I only know this cd, on offer at JPC.de for 3 euros:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/5029365915823.jpg?1401982549)
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 06:11:08 AM
8)
You'll have to excuse my own ignorance as I know next to nothing about Dutch composers as they've never really been a focal point for me.
I don't think they are anybody's focal point, actually. The fact is that you stumble upon them almost accidentally, so to speak. Which in itself is a sign of neglect by the musical public :-X. About 10 years ago (?) someone posted links of dutch radio broadcasts on some web site and I downloaded them all, for eventual listening. I was stunned by the quality and originality of the works I discovered. Were it not for that happenstance, I would probably ignore most of those names. Of course some have been championed by CPO (more power to them!), but that, too, is an indication of the general neglect of the musical establishment/industry.
Thanks for the Otterloo link, Christo !
One dutch compoer I haven't taken too is Tristan Keuris :-[.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 06:42:01 AMAll of them and some more. My personal favourite is Hendrik Andriessen, but composers that I often play include Pieter Hellendaal (18th c.), Johan Willem Wilms, Anton Fodor & Johannes Verhulst (19th) and more from the last century, including Alphons Diepenbrock, Jan van Gilse, Cornelis Dopper, Henriëtte Bosmans, Hans Henkemans, Oscar van Hemel, Anthon van der Horst, Lex van Delden, Jurriaan Andriessen, Hans Kox, Daan Manneke, Joep Franssens, Jacob ter Veldhuis, Joey Roukens, and a handful that I forget. :D
Completely unknown, but a pleasant surprise to listen to, is composer Erik Lotichius (1929-2015), a Dutch Poulenc. I only know this cd, on offer at JPC.de for 3 euros:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/5029365915823.jpg?1401982549)
Thanks for the feedback, but I wish I didn't have some kind of ambivalence about Dutch composers, but it's impossible for me to muster much enthusiasm for any of them. Truth be told, I usually stick with the French, Russians, Czechs, Hungarians, Poles, Germans/Austrians, Romanians, Latin-Americans, and the Spaniards. It seems I'm most attracted to composers from these countries.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 06:55:28 AM
Thanks for the feedback, but I wish I didn't have some kind of ambivalence about Dutch composers, but it's impossible for me to muster much enthusiasm for any of them. Truth be told, I usually stick with the French, Russians, Czechs, Hungarians, Poles, Germans/Austrians, Romanians, Latin-Americans, and the Spaniards. It seems I'm most attracted to composers from these countries.
In my mind map, they're grouped together with the Belgians and Swiss. Typical of all three music cultures is a combination of a German substructure with a French superstructure - and often when I hear a new composer I cannot determine which of these three countries I have before me.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 07:13:57 AM
In my mind map, they're grouped together with the Belgians and Swiss. Typical of all three music cultures is a combination of a German substructure with a French superstructure - and often when I hear a new composer I cannot determine which of these three countries I have before me.
Of the Swiss, I do like Honegger and Frank Martin a lot. Aside from Lekeu, I don't know any of the Belgians.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 07:19:54 AM
Of the Swiss, I do like Honegger and Frank Martin a lot. Aside from Lekeu, I don't know any of the Belgians.
Frank Martin lived in the Netherlands for a long time and his music feels extremely "Dutch" for me.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 07:24:05 AM
Frank Martin lived in the Netherlands for a long time and his music feels extremely "Dutch" for me.
I didn't know that ! Very interesting.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 07:24:05 AM
Frank Martin lived in the Netherlands for a long time and his music feels extremely "Dutch" for me.
I hear more of a French influence spiked with some of
The Second Viennese School.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 23, 2019, 09:44:17 PM
Rued Langgaard: He lived eclipsed by the fame of his compatriot Nielsen. Unfortunately, many of his works didn't receive the recognition they deserved at their time. I find that situation unfair, so there is much creativity in his music. He may be called old-fashioned, but it doesn't mean that his music lacks craftsmanship or development. Personally I consider the mystical Music of the Spheres and the thought-provoking Symphony No. 4 as his unquestionable masterpieces. I should also include Antikrist for that matter.
Eduard Tubin: One of the greatest symphonists from the 20th century, his music possesses all the features to think very highly of him as a composer of a significant stature. For me, Tubin is the best composer from Estonia (besides Arvo Pärt) but I don't know many people who have some idea of his style. And just a few of recording labels spread his works. It would be much more interesting if they record something by him instead of, for example, the 1000+ recording of the Beethoven symphonies. Marketing issues, yes, but come on, do we really need more recordings of works like those, when already there are many for every taste? ::)
Charles-Valentin Alkan: People tend to know Liszt as the supreme virtuoso pianist-composer, but Alkan may be even more fascinating. I don't feel that his contribution to the piano repertoire is not utterly recognized nowadays.
Don't know much about Alkan but totally agree on Tubin and Langgaard. I also agree that Langgaard's Symphony 4 and Music of the Spheres may be his chief claim to prosperity although I also rate Symphony 6 very highly.
Thumbs up for Orthel from me too.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 07:19:54 AM
Of the Swiss, I do like Honegger and Frank Martin a lot. Aside from Lekeu, I don't know any of the Belgians.
A vote for Honegger from me as well. Especially symphonies 3 - 5 and 'Joan of Arc' as well as Les Miserables and L'Idee film scores.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 23, 2019, 09:44:17 PM
Rued Langgaard: He lived eclipsed by the fame of his compatriot Nielsen. Unfortunately, many of his works didn't receive the recognition they deserved at their time. I find that situation unfair, so there is much creativity in his music. He may be called old-fashioned, but it doesn't mean that his music lacks craftsmanship or development. Personally I consider the mystical Music of the Spheres and the thought-provoking Symphony No. 4 as his unquestionable masterpieces. I should also include Antikrist for that matter.
.......
Charles-Valentin Alkan: People tend to know Liszt as the supreme virtuoso pianist-composer, but Alkan may be even more fascinating. I don't feel that his contribution to the piano repertoire is not utterly recognized nowadays.
To the two composers above I would add Geirr Tveitt. In the early part of his career he lived in Paris and his music reflects that to some extent. He has been compared to Bartok but I don't hear that myself. After he moved back to Norway he became more folk-influenced. His Piano Concerto No 4
Aurora Borealis is a good starting point.
Years ago there was a sheet music sale at UMP in London when they were selling off formerly stupidly expensive music for pence. One piece I bought was the Capriccio by Pierre Max Dubois for violin and orchestra - absolute charmer - Ibert out of Francaix with a nod at Poulenc. Mainly known amongst students etc for pedagogic works for wind. As far as I know almost none (except some wind chamber music - especially the saxophone quartet) is recorded - the Capriccio I only know from my own playing of it. His Concerto Italien for 2 pianos & orchestra on this disc gives a fair idea of his style;
[asin]B0001W8E3C[/asin]
In Europe I would say most if not ALL Latin American composers are neglected for absolutely no good reason. Top of the list would be Camargo Guarnieri who has been well served on disc by BIS & Naxos but when did you last hear him played live this side of the Atlantic? - but instantly attractive and appealing music
[asin]B0019EI0MG[/asin]
Another very left field composer I'd love to hear more of is Vaclav Trojan. I played in a BBC studio recording of his "Fairy Tales" for that much maligned instrument the accordion & orchestra. A real charmer of a piece
[asin]B00D4AZXEG[/asin]
and when I was last in Prague I bought a score of his Variazioni Capricciose on Mendelssohn's "Spring Song" where each of the 10 variations is in the style of another composer from Bach via Verdi, Dvorak and Stravinsky ending with Louis Armstrong! Another piece I only know from studying a score at home and it looks witty and intriguing
A counter intuitive list
Bach
Beethoven
Brahms
Actually a few more, such as Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Chopin...
Of course, one can't say they are neglected, but they tend to be taken for granted, often just listened to without stopping to grapple with what they were doing that made them different from their contemporaries.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 05:16:48 AM
Let me add one more, far lesser-known composer (also in his own country), Léon Orthel (1905-1985). The only piece I'd heard in my youth was his late, then new, atmospheric, orchestral Evocazione Op. 83 (1977) and only a couple of years ago there came a release of some historic recordings of his first four symphonies - the ones under conductor Willem van Otterloo very fine BTW. The Third (1943), another war symphony, came as a shock and the Second (1940), Piccola Sinfonia, proved to be a refined master piece. The whole cycle - there are six symphonies - cry for a modern recording as does all of his orchestral work.
Since you and I share many musical tastes, Orthel looks like a promising composer for me.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 24, 2019, 06:21:27 AM
I love Tubin, but my biggest issue with him, and it's my own issue, is the memorability of his music. I love his music as it's unfolding in my ears, but after that, puff...it's gone. The Järvi BIS series is still the 'gold standard' (sorry, Maestro Volmer). I do have to thank Volmer, however, for bringing the complete Kraft to the public's attention as only the suite from Järvi was recorded previously. I'd like to get to know Tubin's chamber music, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of options available.
I beg to differ a bit. I often feel a lot memorability in his music, in works such as the
Sinfonietta on Estonian Motifs, Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 6 mostly, the Violin Concerto No. 1, the
Suite on Estonian Dances, the ballet
Kratt, among others. Quite agreed about the flawless performances of Järvi on BIS. They bring the music with stellar sound, accomplishment and fire.
Quote from: vandermolen on March 24, 2019, 09:11:48 AM
Don't know much about Alkan but totally agree on Tubin and Langgaard. I also agree that Langgaard's Symphony 4 and Music of the Spheres may be his chief claim to prosperity although I also rate Symphony 6 very highly.
Of course, I should have included the 6th! It has been a kind of obsession lately for me, now with a new recording of it.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 24, 2019, 10:59:50 AM
I beg to differ a bit. I often feel a lot memorability in his music, in works such as the Sinfonietta on Estonian Motifs, Symphonies 2, 3, 4 and 6 mostly, the Violin Concerto No. 1, the Suite on Estonian Dances, the ballet Kratt, among others. Quite agreed about the flawless performances of Järvi on BIS. They bring the music with stellar sound, accomplishment and fire.
Well, we're certainly all different and, obviously, I admire the composer very much, but I admire the music in
the moment I'm hearing it. After that, I don't really remember it and I'm certainly not saying he's terrible (he's among my favorites) because of this lack of memorability, but there are many works from say Martinů or Prokofiev that can become one blur to me, but I do love their music dearly and this doesn't even speak of the quality of the music itself nor my own affection for it. Again, it's a failing of my own listening and no one else's.
I have to admit that Tubin is one of several Scandinavian composers many people here like, but none of whom have clicked for me. Sallinen is another one.
Quote from: JBS on March 24, 2019, 11:14:26 AM
I have to admit that Tubin is one of several Scandinavian composers many people here like, but none of whom have clicked for me. Sallinen is another one.
I, too, struggle with Sallinen. Aside from Sibelius and Nielsen (and some Langgaard), there really isn't a lot of Nordic music I have an affinity for.
The only true successes there for me are Atterberg and Holmboe. To a lesser Magnus Lindberg has connected with me on a hit or miss. The rest I've tried don't really work, or just haven't stayed in memory (Koppel is a good example here.) It's gotten to the point that I have shied away from some composers like Pettersen and Laanggard whom a lot of people here like. I have Petersen-Berger is the listening pile, but he of course is from the c 1900 crowd.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 24, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
Years ago there was a sheet music sale at UMP in London when they were selling off formerly stupidly expensive music for pence. One piece I bought was the Capriccio by Pierre Max Dubois for violin and orchestra - absolute charmer - Ibert out of Francaix with a nod at Poulenc. Mainly known amongst students etc for pedagogic works for wind. As far as I know almost none (except some wind chamber music - especially the saxophone quartet) is recorded - the Capriccio I only know from my own playing of it. His Concerto Italien for 2 pianos & orchestra on this disc gives a fair idea of his style;
[asin]B0001W8E3C[/asin]
In Europe I would say most if not ALL Latin American composers are neglected for absolutely no good reason. Top of the list would be Camargo Guarnieri who has been well served on disc by BIS & Naxos but when did you last hear him played live this side of the Atlantic? - but instantly attractive and appealing music
[asin]B0019EI0MG[/asin]
Another very left field composer I'd love to hear more of is Vaclav Trojan. I played in a BBC studio recording of his "Fairy Tales" for that much maligned instrument the accordion & orchestra. A real charmer of a piece
[asin]B00D4AZXEG[/asin]
and when I was last in Prague I bought a score of his Variazioni Capricciose on Mendelssohn's "Spring Song" where each of the 10 variations is in the style of another composer from Bach via Verdi, Dvorak and Stravinsky ending with Louis Armstrong! Another piece I only know from studying a score at home and it looks witty and intriguing
We just discussed Camargo Mozart Guarnieri on the Quix thread! Yes, likable music. Carlos Gustavino wrote very appealing piano music that I have.
Quote from: SymphonicAddict on March 24, 2019, 10:53:57 AM
Since you and I share many musical tastes, Orthel looks like a promising composer for me.
The shortest test - 4 minutes - is his
Evocazione (1977), a little longer - at 12 minutes - the
Scherzo No. 2 per orchestra (1957), the 'war symphony' to start with his
Third (1943) in four movements:
https://www.youtube.com/v/HIlC2qRv8kA https://www.youtube.com/v/Rn67S0U7jrE&t=498s https://www.youtube.com/v/22CV5Eg3o34
Quote from: Roasted Swan on March 24, 2019, 10:38:06 AMTop of the list would be Camargo Guarnieri who has been well served on disc by BIS & Naxos but when did you last hear him played live this side of the Atlantic? - but instantly attractive and appealing music.
Totally agree, find the symphonies superb - and we're still waiting for a recording of No. 7!~ ???
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 06:42:01 AM
Did you hear Willem van Otterloo's dramatic Symphony No. 2, restored by Otto Ketting? It's on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/v/CSu1w5F6lyI&t=240sDouwe Eisenga being the outsider here, glad to learn that you know him, because very few in this country do; I myself have subscribed to his own, weekly, online music offerings :-)
All of them and some more. My personal favourite is Hendrik Andriessen, but composers that I often play include Pieter Hellendaal (18th c.), Johan Willem Wilms, Anton Fodor & Johannes Verhulst (19th) and more from the last century, including Alphons Diepenbrock, Jan van Gilse, Cornelis Dopper, Henriëtte Bosmans, Hans Henkemans, Oscar van Hemel, Anthon van der Horst, Lex van Delden, Jurriaan Andriessen, Hans Kox, Daan Manneke, Joep Franssens, Jacob ter Veldhuis, Joey Roukens, and a handful that I forget. :D
Completely unknown, but a pleasant surprise to listen to, is composer Erik Lotichius (1929-2015), a Dutch Poulenc. I only know this cd, on offer at JPC.de for 3 euros:
(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/5029365915823.jpg?1401982549)
I discovered Eisenga serendipitously years ago. I am one of the first 10 subscribers to his YouTube! There were 8 when I joined.
Quote from: Biffo on March 24, 2019, 09:21:35 AM
To the two composers above I would add Geirr Tveitt. In the early part of his career he lived in Paris and his music reflects that to some extent. He has been compared to Bartok but I don't hear that myself. After he moved back to Norway he became more folk-influenced. His Piano Concerto No 4 Aurora Borealis is a good starting point.
I was just listening to that piano concerto the other day - it is very nice indeed - quite a haunting work.
Quote from: Christo on March 24, 2019, 11:38:53 AM
The shortest test - 4 minutes - is his Evocazione (1977), a little longer - at 12 minutes - the Scherzo No. 2 per orchestra (1957), the 'war symphony' to start with his Third (1943) in four movements:
https://www.youtube.com/v/HIlC2qRv8kA https://www.youtube.com/v/Rn67S0U7jrE&t=498s https://www.youtube.com/v/22CV5Eg3o34
Thanks for this! Just played the
Evocazione and I was gripped by its militaristic-march-like sounds.
The Scherzo no 2 is a personal favourite.
Maybe we should petition CPO to embark on a Leon Orthel series !
Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 03:51:00 PM
The Scherzo no 2 is a personal favourite.
Maybe we should petition CPO to embark on a Leon Orthel series !
Not until they record more Enescu! ;D
Quote from: André on March 24, 2019, 03:51:00 PM
The Scherzo no 2 is a personal favourite.
Maybe we should petition CPO to embark on a Leon Orthel series !
+1
It's just and necessary!
Michèle Bokanowski
(https://img.discogs.com/r9daGkKRloiS6YJ_cthxm3xUCYs=/fit-in/360x360/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2296948-1289814340.jpeg.jpg)
Beatriz Ferreyra
(https://img.discogs.com/sJunDpriG9ziLwxyYKK9RrJ-oxA=/fit-in/267x240/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4452458-1365270245-9249.jpeg.jpg)
Maryanne Amacher
(https://img.discogs.com/OCE3K8Cd4dO_uZXrEnWf1rj_k1M=/fit-in/342x337/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-22796-1153525773.jpeg.jpg)
List No.2
Richard Arnell ( a fine symphonist - especially symphonies 3,4 and 5). Deserves more attention.
Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov: wrote the marvellous score to the Soviet 'War and Peace' film and yet none of his symphonies are available on CD.
David Diamond. Should be up there with Copland, Harris and William Schuman IMO. His Third Symphony, in particular is wonderful and very moving in places.
Below:
Ovchinnikov
Arnell
Diamond
(//)
Very good list, Jeffrey ! On the surface Diamond does not appear very neglected, but that is deceptive. Most of what we know is the work of Delos (later picked up by Naxos), who never got to complete its project of recording the symphonies >:(.
Some wonderful names so far!
(Now, if you want a good fight, start a "Unfairly NOT neglected" list... >:D
Quote from: vandermolen on March 27, 2019, 11:14:50 AM
List No.2
Richard Arnell ( a fine symphonist - especially symphonies 3,4 and 5). Deserves more attention.
Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov: wrote the marvellous score to the Soviet 'War and Peace' film and yet none of his symphonies are available on CD.
David Diamond. Should be up there with Copland, Harris and William Schuman IMO. His Third Symphony, in particular is wonderful and very moving in places.
Below:
Ovchinnikov
Arnell
Diamond
(//)
Sorry Jeffrey, but only one list per member. I hate to be one of
those people, but there you have it. :)
Agree about Diamond.
Ernst Bloch, particularly the string quartets.
Many 20th Century American composers. I'll mention Creston, but there are at least a half dozen others that could be mentioned.
Quote from: Mirror Image on March 27, 2019, 06:38:53 PM
Sorry Jeffrey, but only one list per member. I hate to be one of those people, but there you have it. :)
Oops - sorry John. Won't do any more.
Quote from: André on March 27, 2019, 01:42:46 PM
Very good list, Jeffrey ! On the surface Diamond does not appear very neglected, but that is deceptive. Most of what we know is the work of Delos (later picked up by Naxos), who never got to complete its project of recording the symphonies >:(.
Yes, that's a good point Andre.
First of all, most unfairly neglected composers are not necessarily neglected unfairly. I remember listening to one of the "lesser" Beethoven sonatas and thinking: if another composer composed something close to this, he'd be considered grossly unjustly neglected!
Then again, there are some who should receive a bit more attention. Many has been mentioned but I will name one more:
Peter Mennin. Yes, I know, he composed those symphonies and a couple of concerti but otherwise not as versatile. But those symphonies (and the cello concerto!) has such a distinct voice worthy of attention.
Quote from: Daverz on March 27, 2019, 11:41:31 PM
Agree about Diamond.
Ernst Bloch, particularly the string quartets.
Many 20th Century American composers. I'll mention Creston, but there are at least a half dozen others that could be mentioned.
Agree about Bloch sq's in particular. The epic No.1 is a favourite of mine.
Quote from: Daverz on March 27, 2019, 11:41:31 PM
Agree about Diamond.
Ernst Bloch, particularly the string quartets.
Many 20th Century American composers. I'll mention Creston, but there are at least a half dozen others that could be mentioned.
[/b]
Are they neglected in their homeland?
Several years ago someone posted a list of composers ranked by the number of performances in the Amazon UK forum. Once you got outside the top 50 'usual suspects' US composers (mostly unknown to me) began to appear quite frequently. Some of these provoked discussion and one possibility touted that it was down to the number of amateur, semi-professional and collegiate orchestras in the US. At least the composers are getting played somewhere. Sorry I can't give more details or examples but I no longer have the list or a link to it.
I have Creston's Symphony No 2 and probably played it only once; that is not enough for me to know whether he is unjustly neglected.
Quote from: Biffo on March 28, 2019, 02:01:45 AM
[/b]
Are they neglected in their homeland?
Several years ago someone posted a list of composers ranked by the number of performances in the Amazon UK forum. Once you got outside the top 50 'usual suspects' US composers (mostly unknown to me) began to appear quite frequently. Some of these provoked discussion and one possibility touted that it was down to the number of amateur, semi-professional and collegiate orchestras in the US. At least the composers are getting played somewhere. Sorry I can't give more details or examples but I no longer have the list or a link to it.
I have Creston's Symphony No 2 and probably played it only once; that is not enough for me to know whether he is unjustly neglected.
Unfortunately, Copland, Gershwin, Bernstein, Barber, and perhaps John Adams are the only American composers performed with any regularity here. Hanson, Schuman, Harris, Creston, Mennin, Diamond, Persichetti, etc. are virtually ignored.
Quote from: kyjo on March 29, 2019, 05:40:05 PM
Unfortunately, Copland, Gershwin, Bernstein, Barber, and perhaps John Adams are the only American composers performed with any regularity here. Hanson, Schuman, Harris, Creston, Mennin, Diamond, Persichetti, etc. are ignored.
FTFY.
There is a possible upside to this void. I think many orchestras prefer, when they do perform "modern music", to do works by composers of the current generation, which they can tout as "new", a "discovery", with the possible eclat of commissioning and premiering a brand new work, and then quietly drop if it doesn't go over well. There is possibly a financial motive as well: the orchestral parts need not be as expensive.
Quote from: kyjo on March 29, 2019, 05:40:05 PM
Unfortunately, Copland, Gershwin, Bernstein, Barber, and perhaps John Adams are the only American composers performed with any regularity here. Hanson, Schuman, Harris, Creston, Mennin, Diamond, Persichetti, etc. are virtually ignored.
I'll bet they're not ignored nearly as much as Ignace or Childs or Amacher or Brown or Wolff or Henry, etc.
You can easily test how ignored they are by measuring how difficult it is to supply first names to these. Your list is easy: Howard, William, Roy, Paul, Peter, David, Vincent. (And I listen to none of these frequently, except for Bill.)
Kurt Atterberg, Joly Braga Santos, and George Lloyd. (If allowed four I would've also included Howard Hanson.) Three composers who were simply born fifty years too late for their musical styles. Others may use that a criticism but I certainly do not. They continued to write beautiful, melodic, steadfastly tonal music well into the 20th century despite the militant serialist/avant-garde regime of the Darmstadt School and its ilk. Fortunately, the music of these three composers has recently been revived by recordings, but live performances are still very scarce. If given the chance, their immensely appealing music would go down with thunderous applause at any concert hall around the world.
Penderecki, Lutoslawski, me ;)
It could be argued certain film composers get unfairly neglected appreciation-wise; Jerry Goldsmith's works were at times easily concert-level and yet maestro Williams gets so many more performances it's ridiculous (to me Goldsmith and Williams are equally phenomenal). Check out Planet of the Apes for some serial-esque and at times outright avante-garde goodness.
Alfred Newman's Robe was so interestingly written (with a clustery choir part that would fit into the art music label with no difficulty) yet again the film score stage is overwhelmingly about Morricone (another extreme great) and the abovementioned Williams.
My vote is definitely for too prolific English composer, Derek Bourgeois (1941-2017). He held the same post as Gustav Holst as Director of Music at the St. Paul's Girl's school and later director of the National Youth Symphony of Britain. His music is very much in the English tradition but borrows from 20th century Russian's too. Other's would include Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov because I like all I've heard and he's impossible to even find a full list of works and Vitezslav Novak because his later symphonies still aren't available.
Quote from: relm1 on August 13, 2019, 05:50:37 AM
My vote is definitely for too prolific English composer, Derek Bourgeois (1941-2017). He held the same post as Gustav Holst as Director of Music at the St. Paul's Girl's school and later director of the National Youth Symphony of Britain. His music is very much in the English tradition but borrows from 20th century Russian's too. Other's would include Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov because I like all I've heard and he's impossible to even find a full list of works and Vitezslav Novak because his later symphonies still aren't available.
I know nothing of Bourgeois at all but certainly agree about Ovchinnikov and Novak. I'd be very interested to hear Novak's 'Autumn Symphony' and a new recording of his masterpiece 'The Storm' would be nice. It would be great if Naxos or some other company could release Ovchinnikov's 1st and 2nd symphonies on CD. Wilfred Joseph is another rather neglected symphonist.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2019, 06:50:57 AM
I know nothing of Bourgeois at all but certainly agree about Ovchinnikov and Novak. I'd be very interested to hear Novak's 'Autumn Symphony' and a new recording of his masterpiece 'The Storm' would be nice. It would be great if Naxos or some other company could release Ovchinnikov's 1st and 2nd symphonies on CD. Wilfred Joseph is another rather neglected symphonist.
I must remedy that lack of Bourgeois exposure immediately. It is probably one of his more conservative symphonies but a good introduction nonetheless in that it is very English, from 1988, and very accessible. His Symphony No. 6. This is him at his most traditional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLnAHa2aBmk
His first symphony reminds me of William Walton's first and was composed when he was only 18 years old and at Cambridge where it was premiered by David Wilcocks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_uE3w5kS4
His last symphony to receive a public performance orchestrally was No. 7 (2002). After that, he wrote a staggering 116 total!!!!) All of substantial and diverse quality. It is too hard to quantify the range and quality of the neglect but there is Mahlerian grandeur, epic Shostakovitch, poignant longing songs of loss, all of which not heard. His Symphony No. 9 is an amazing two hour epic which includes a massive fugue. Here is a great retrospective from a few years ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/feb/09/derek-bourgeois-symphonies
This composer's neglect is criminal.
I will also like to add Alun Hoddinott as my fourth top three unfairly neglected composer.
Quote from: relm1 on August 13, 2019, 04:22:27 PM
I must remedy that lack of Bourgeois exposure immediately. It is probably one of his more conservative symphonies but a good introduction nonetheless in that it is very English, from 1988, and very accessible. His Symphony No. 6. This is him at his most traditional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLnAHa2aBmk
His first symphony reminds me of William Walton's first and was composed when he was only 18 years old and at Cambridge where it was premiered by David Wilcocks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_uE3w5kS4
His last symphony to receive a public performance orchestrally was No. 7 (2002). After that, he wrote a staggering 116 total!!!!) All of substantial and diverse quality. It is too hard to quantify the range and quality of the neglect but there is Mahlerian grandeur, epic Shostakovitch, poignant longing songs of loss, all of which not heard. His Symphony No. 9 is an amazing two hour epic which includes a massive fugue. Here is a great retrospective from a few years ago:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2009/feb/09/derek-bourgeois-symphonies
This composer's neglect is criminal.
Thanks very much for this update Karim. He is a complete blank in my knowledge. I hope that we get some commercial recordings of his symphonies. That First Symphony does sound waltonian. At least with Hoddinott there are recordings of several of his symphonies and much else besides.
My fifth and sixth top three neglected composer are Ragnar Soderling and Arthur Butterworth. Would love the rest of their significant output to be available because these northerners do not disappoint. There is some Sibelius, Shostakovich, and Vaughan Williams in them. Soderling is still composing and has composed nine symphonies to date.
Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2019, 06:50:57 AM
I know nothing of Bourgeois at all but certainly agree about Ovchinnikov and Novak. I'd be very interested to hear Novak's 'Autumn Symphony' and a new recording of his masterpiece 'The Storm' would be nice. It would be great if Naxos or some other company could release Ovchinnikov's 1st and 2nd symphonies on CD. Wilfred Joseph is another rather neglected symphonist.
I believe Bourgeois is actually commonly performed— by bands. I have heard at least two pieces by him in concerts by brass bands.
There is a whole parallel universe of bands. I "discovered" Eric Erwazen. When I mentioned him to a brass bander, he knew the man, and played his music. He is well known in that universe.
Quote from: Ken B on August 17, 2019, 06:18:35 AM
I believe Bourgeois is actually commonly performed— by bands. I have heard at least two pieces by him in concerts by brass bands.
There is a whole parallel universe of bands. I "discovered" Eric Erwazen. When I mentioned him to a brass bander, he knew the man, and played his music. He is well known in that universe.
You make an excellent point. What to do of symphonically wonderful composers like Johan de Meij and David Maslanka who should be better known but have been relegated to band for practical reasons? I think that should be no different than substantial composers who had to make their living in commercial settings (Shostakovitch in communist days for example). Great composers are great composers regardless of the medium.
Quote from: relm1 on August 17, 2019, 05:11:06 PM
You make an excellent point. What to do of symphonically wonderful composers like Johan de Meij and David Maslanka who should be better known but have been relegated to band for practical reasons? I think that should be no different than substantial composers who had to make their living in commercial settings (Shostakovitch in communist days for example). Great composers are great composers regardless of the medium.
I was at a band concert where de Meij conducted. I have heard both his wonderful trombone concerti live (Joe Alessi and Alain Trudel) at different concerts.
Quote from: kyjo on May 27, 2019, 01:11:51 PM
...the militant serialist/avant-garde regime of the Darmstadt School and its ilk.
I think the world of music would be substantially improved if this canard would only die.
Certainly the world of classical music discussion forums would be substantially improved.
Quote from: some guy on August 18, 2019, 02:14:49 AM
I think the world of music would be substantially improved if this canard would only die.
Certainly the world of classical music discussion forums would be substantially improved.
Well, don't forget that William Glock, who served as a BBC Controller of Music from 1959 to 1972, discouraged performances of new music written in a traditional, tonal style and was rumored to have held a "blacklist" of composers who didn't fit his ideals. Pierre Boulez said "Any musician who has not experienced - I do not say understood, but truly experienced - the necessity of dodecaphonic music is USELESS. For his whole work is irrelevant to the needs of his epoch."
Quote from: kyjo on August 18, 2019, 09:34:50 AM
Well, don't forget that William Glock, who served as a BBC Controller of Music from 1959 to 1972, discouraged performances of new music written in a traditional, tonal style and was rumored to have held a "blacklist" of composers who didn't fit his ideals. Pierre Boulez said "Any musician who has not experienced - I do not say understood, but truly experienced - the necessity of dodecaphonic music is USELESS. For his whole work is irrelevant to the needs of his epoch."
Oh facts. You cannot use facts to dispel a
canard.
Boulez btw controlled for many years most of the money that France spent on performance art, including music. Unthinkable he used it to push only music he liked. And it's not like he physically disrupted concerts of music he disapproved of. Oh, wait. Scratch that.
Quote from: kyjo on August 18, 2019, 09:34:50 AM
Well, don't forget that William Glock, who served as a BBC Controller of Music from 1959 to 1972, discouraged performances of new music written in a traditional, tonal style and was rumored to have held a "blacklist" of composers who didn't fit his ideals. Pierre Boulez said "Any musician who has not experienced - I do not say understood, but truly experienced - the necessity of dodecaphonic music is USELESS. For his whole work is irrelevant to the needs of his epoch."
If only you had read just a little farther in the Wikipedia article.... (Also, it is prudent to acknowledge your sources and particularly to put quotes around words that you present exactly as they were in your source. Even more important is retaining the original import of the source, which, in this case, was not a simple "discouraged" but the very different "was accused of.")
"His obituarist Stephen Plaistow commented that when he took over, 'BBC music was becalmed. I remember Peter Heyworth in the Observer in the 1950s berating the old music division for giving us always the latest cow-and-gate cantata and Cheltenham symphony, but rarely the latest Stravinsky...the thrust of Glock's policy was obvious, and omissions there may have been, but the notion of such a list is absurd.'"
Seems it's an issue of framing. You say he discouraged performances of "new music written in a traditional, tonal style." Others say he encouraged new music that was genuinely new (as opposed to simply "written recently"). Which framing is more accurate?
But before you answer, there's another question to answer that may affect your response to the first question ;): Had the BBC prior to Glock discouraged new music that deviated from tradition and/or tonality?
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2019, 10:23:07 AM
Oh facts. You cannot use facts to dispel a canard.
Boulez btw controlled for many years most of the money that France spent on performance art, including music. Unthinkable he used it to push only music he liked. And it's not like he physically disrupted concerts of music he disapproved of. Oh, wait. Scratch that.
Yes, some actual facts would be quite refreshing here....
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2019, 10:23:07 AM
Oh facts. You cannot use facts to dispel a canard.
Boulez btw controlled for many years most of the money that France spent on performance art, including music. Unthinkable he used it to push only music he liked. And it's not like he physically disrupted concerts of music he disapproved of. Oh, wait. Scratch that.
That's the problem with
canards. Wrong facts go unchecked and then are used as absolute proof.
If anyone took the time to look up what was being performed by e.g. the Orchestre de Paris, the Paris Opéra or any other major French musical institution when
Boulez allegedly held absolute power, they'd realise how wrong this notion of "suppression" of music
Boulez disliked is. Of course, he didn't promote that music in the institutions he himself led (initially, the Domaine Musical—which received no state subsidies, it must be noted—, and later IRCAM and the EIC—created at the behest of
Georges Pompidou, who gave the composer-conductor a free hand to act as he saw fit). What do people expect, for
Boulez to program, let's say,
Henri Sauget—a composer he had no affinity with—at the
espace de projection? That's like asking
William Christie to perform
Stockhausen with Les Arts Florissants. :D
The situation in London was not different. Yes, the BBC became a bastion of avantgardism under
Glock and
Boulez, but there was no dearth of the "other" music at the Royal Opera House, the London orchestras (LSO, Philharmonia, etc.), or even the BBC Proms during those years.
But, of course, it's much easier to blame
Boulez for other composers (often of the second or third ranks) not having had wider exposure and lapsed into oblivion, than to look at their music on its own merits (or lack thereof). ::)
The only known episode of physical disruption of a concert involving
Boulez was when
Manuel Rosenthal conducted (then) recent
Stravinsky works—including one of
Igor Fyodorovich's weakest pieces, the
Four Norwegian Moods—at the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées in 1946. A group of youngsters—from the circle close to
Boulez—started ridiculing the music mid-performance, and their agenda—which doesn't justify their attitude IMO—was to draw attention to the absence of twelve-tone works from concert programs and the risk they perceived of Paris falling back to the "facile" pre-war musical scene (where anything Schoenbergian or—later—Webernian was almost completely absent until the advent of the Domaine). But, it turns out,
Pierre Boulez himself—who was 21 years of age at the time—was
not in the audience that night.
Quote from: ritter on August 18, 2019, 10:57:52 AM
That's the problem with canards. Wrong facts go unchecked and then are used as absolute proof.
If anyone took the time to look up what was being performed by e.g. the Orchestre de Paris, the Paris Opéra or any other major French musical institution when Boulez allegedly held absolute power, they'd realise how wrong this notion of "suppression" of music Boulez disliked is. Of course, he didn't promote that music in the institutions he himself led (initially, the Domaine Musical—which received no state subsidies, it must be noted—, and later IRCAM and the EIC—created at the behest of Georges Pompidou, who gave the composer-conductor a free hand to act as he saw fit). What do people expect, for Boulez to program, let's say, Henri Sauget—a composer he had no affinity with—at the salle modulable? That's like asking William Christie to perform Stockhausen with Les Arts Florissants. :D
The situation in London was not different. Yes, the BBC became a bastion of avantgardism under Glock and Boulez, but there was no dearth of the "other" music at the Royal Opera House, the London orchestras (LSO, Philharmonia, etc.), or even the BBC Proms during those years.
But, of course, it's much easier to blame Boulez for other composers (often of the second or third ranks) not having had wider exposure and lapsed into oblivion, than to look at their music on its own merits (or lack thereof). ::)
The only known episode of physical disruption of a concert involving Boulez was when Manuel Rosenthal conducted (then) recent Stravinsky works—including one of Igor Fyodorovich's weakest pieces, the Four Norwegian Moods—at the Théâtre des Champs-Elysées in 1946. A group of youngsters—from the circle close to Boulez—started ridiculing the music mid-performance, and their agenda—which doesn't justify their attitude IMO—was to draw attention to the absence of twelve-tone works from concert programs and the risk they perceived of Paris falling back to the "facile" pre-war musical scene (where anything Schoenbergian or—later—Webernian was almost completely absent until the advent of the Domaine). But, it turns out, Pierre Boulez himself—who was 21 years of age at the time—was not in the audience that night.
I talked about Boulez controlling funding, not "absolute power" — a phrase you made up — over any orchestra.
Otherwise you admit the facts are so, but downplay them.
Your argument is it seems, they didn't exert a complete stranglehold, so therefore they had no effect.
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2019, 11:48:17 AM
I talked about Boulez controlling funding, not "absolute power" — a phrase you made up — over any orchestra.
Otherwise you admit the facts are so, but downplay them.
Your argument is it seems, they didn't exert a complete stranglehold, so therefore they had no effect.
Pierre Boulez never controlled funding for any Parisian (or French) musical institution beyond his own. I.e. the Orchestre de Paris, the Opéra, the radio orchestra, etc., etc., were funded directly by the competent authorities, and did very well during Boulez's "control" (to use your term).
I'm not downplaying anything, I'm denying a fallacy that has become widespread. That
Boulez was outspoken and brash at times is undeniable, but so were many of his predecessors and contemporaries when they defended their aesthetic positions, and that does not turn him or them into musical tyrants or anything of the kind.
Quote from: ritter on August 18, 2019, 12:03:18 PM
Pierre Boulez never controlled funding for any Parisian (or French) musical institution beyond his own. I.e. the Orchestre de Paris, the Opéra, the radio orchestra, etc., etc., were funded directly by the competent authorities, and did very well during Boulez's "control" (to use your term).
I'm not downplaying anything, I'm denying a fallacy that has become widespread. That Boulez was outspoken and brash at times is undeniable, but so were many of his predecessors and contemporaries when they defended their aesthetic positions, and that does not turn him or them into musical tyrants or anything of the kind.
IRCAM.
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
IRCAM.
Exactly my point...
PB controlled (to use
my term) IRCAM and the EIC, and got ample funding for these. But as state subsidies for the arts increased dramatically in France when
Mitterrand took office and
Jack Lang was appointed Minister for Culture, the
Boulez ventures did not benefit disproportionately compared to other institutions (on which
Boulez had no authority and, if anything, only tangential influence). I insist, do people expect
Boulez to have given an all-
Sauguet program with the EIC? That's like asking
Karajan to program
Glass's
Akhenaten in Salzburg (and I never read anything accusing
Karajan—the "
Generalmusikdirektor of Europe", and a widely influential figure in his day—of suppressing anything).
Quote from: ritter on August 18, 2019, 12:29:27 PM
Exactly my point...PB controlled (to use my term) IRCAM and the EIC, and got ample funding for these. But as state subsidies for the arts increased dramatically in France when Mitterrand took office and Jack Lang was appointed Minister for Culture, the Boulez ventures did not benefit disproportionately compared to other institutions (on which Boulez had no authority and, if anything, only tangential influence). I insist, do people expect Boulez to have given an all-Sauguet program with the EIC? That's like asking Karajan to program Glass's Akhenaten in Salzburg (and I never read anything accusing Karajan—the "Generalmusikdirektor of Europe", and a widely influential figure in his day—of suppressing anything).
Well, if it's your point it's a bad one, because the point at issue is not whether Boulez alone and unaided tipped the playing field against tonal composers. IRCAM, and university departments, and granting agencies ( of paramount importance) and opinion makers like Boulez were *all* tipping the field.
We discussed this at great length years ago on this site.
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2019, 12:56:18 PM
Well, if it's your point it's a bad one, because the point at issue is not whether Boulez alone and unaided tipped the playing field against tonal composers. IRCAM, and university departments, and granting agencies ( of paramount importance) and opinion makers like Boulez were *all* tipping the field.
We discussed this at great length years ago on this site.
I fail to grasp your point. First it was
Boulez who controlled financing, now it's "granting agencies" (which granting agencies?) and universities that are the culprits. But if you want to keep
PB (aided by other "opinion makers") as the
bête noire to blame for the alleged suppression of tonal music (and ignore the evidence of was being performed in Europe—including France and the UK—and America in those years), that's OK. ;).
TD:Three composers I think would merit wider recognition are
Florent Schmitt,
Ernst Krenek and
Ernesto Halffter.
Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2019, 12:56:18 PM
Well, if it's your point it's a bad one, because the point at issue is not whether Boulez alone and unaided tipped the playing field against tonal composers. IRCAM, and university departments, and granting agencies ( of paramount importance) and opinion makers like Boulez were *all* tipping the field.
We discussed this at great length years ago on this site.
Another framing thing. The field that Boulez was faced with had been tipped against non-tonal composers from before he was even born. To characterize someone trying to make the field level as someone who is "tipping" the field just doesn't seem quite the thing.
Also, I'm starting to think that the "great length" you then refer to is very possibly a function of certain members moving the goalposts (on the unlevel playing field) with each new comment.
On the strength of his 8th Symphony I'd add Ragnar Soderlind to this list.
GMG member Vandermolen (Jeffrey) has already mentioned Vyacheslav Ovchinnikov, whose neglect is a disgrace.
Julian Carrillo, Mexican quarter-tone, microtone composer:
https://www.youtube.com/v/7tEx3M1-9O0
Ivan Wyschnegradsky, Russian quarter-tone, microtone composer:
https://www.youtube.com/v/B9WPfkXQa_Y
Mildred Couper, American quarter-tone, microtone composer:
https://www.youtube.com/v/PEOp3tFNaiI
Deems Taylor
Morton Subotnick
George Rochberg
Johann Baptist Vanhal
Joseph Martin Kraus
Franz Berwald