Saw the teaser trailer some time ago, apparently Lando and Palpatine are back. After failure of The Last Jedi as a movie on the whole (I liked some jokes in it but as a movie on the whole.... not so much)... not sure yet what to expect, it could be the best thing ever, mediocre or complete failure tried to save by having beloved (or love to hate) characters back. I don't mind them being back, in fact, I asked throughout watching The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi: "Where is Lando?" but I hope the movie doesn't rely solely on nostalgia value and tries to instead make a good or at the very least enjoyable film.
I think it will be good and agree with you The Last Jedi was a story telling failure. JJ Abrams is back and knows this will be the last ride with the original characters and is a sentimentalist, so I expect good things.
I have retract my previous comments about The Last Jedi. I think it's worse than The Phantom Menace, which is saying A LOT. My interest in Star Wars is based solely off the original 'trilogy' (particularly the theatrical versions). Disney has only produced one film worth a watch and that's Rogue One. I thought this was a very well-done standalone film. Solo I thought was dreadful and just not very interesting with some casting problems. I have little hope that this newest installment is going to be any good as the only new character that I thought had potential was Kylo Ren, but since the story arc for him ended up being disappointing and left me unsatisfied, I have no use for any of the other characters and think they're all underdeveloped and I lack any kind of empathy for them the way I felt for Luke, Solo, and Darth Vader. I'm sorry Lucas, but you made a mistake selling your legacy to a company whose main motive is to make money and not actually produce inspired storytelling. I think Lucas regrets selling it, too.
I loved
The Last Jedi and still rank it among the best episodes, right after the originals.
Solo was okay-ish at times, so was
Rogue One but both failed to engage me in any meaningful way.
TLJ, on the other hand, is just so much fun right from the start, and for me, it works brilliantly (except for the boring casino chase scene).
That said, I'm wondering how they're gonna wrap this up. I thoroughly enjoyed Johnson's iconoclasm – the throne room scene in
TLJ is one of my favourite in the whole franchise – and would hate to see Abrams & co. backpedalling on that. If they're bringing back the Emperor, here's hoping it's done in a creative way and not just 'oh, it was you all along'.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 21, 2019, 07:13:05 AMI'm sorry Lucas, but you made a mistake selling your legacy to a company whose main motive is to make money and not actually produce inspired storytelling.
I heartily disagree. Lucas' empire became a moneymaking behemoth a long, long time before Disney.
Quote from: Rinaldo on April 21, 2019, 08:41:19 AM
I loved The Last Jedi and still rank it among the best episodes, right after the originals. Solo was okay-ish at times, so was Rogue One but both failed to engage me in any meaningful way. TLJ, on the other hand, is just so much fun right from the start, and for me, it works brilliantly (except for the boring casino chase scene).
That said, I'm wondering how they're gonna wrap this up. I thoroughly enjoyed Johnson's iconoclasm – the throne room scene in TLJ is one of my favourite in the whole franchise – and would hate to see Abrams & co. backpedalling on that. If they're bringing back the Emperor, here's hoping it's done in a creative way and not just 'oh, it was you all along'.
I heartily disagree. Lucas' empire became a moneymaking behemoth a long, long time before Disney.
But you can't defend it as a story. I'll assume your love of that film is based on an emotional reaction. It's an offensively poor story (coming from a huge Star Wars fan).
The Last Jedi was... okay. But since Star Wars movies are above average, that's not really a favorable assessment from me.
Quote from: relm1 on April 21, 2019, 04:00:42 PM
But you can't defend it as a story. I'll assume your love of that film is based on an emotional reaction. It's an offensively poor story (coming from a huge Star Wars fan).
+1 One of the most important aspects of the original trilogy was the narrative. This new trilogy doesn't have one.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2019, 05:46:58 PM
+1 One of the most important aspects of the original trilogy was the narrative. This new trilogy doesn't have one.
Is "stop the bad guy" not enough of a narrative? :D
Quote from: relm1 on April 21, 2019, 04:00:42 PMBut you can't defend it as a story.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 22, 2019, 05:46:58 PM
+1 One of the most important aspects of the original trilogy was the narrative. This new trilogy doesn't have one.
Interesting. I find
TLJ on par with the originals and thought the themes it explored (the nature of the Force, the concept of a 'chosen one'..) were done very well withing the framework of its story.
Quote from: relm1I'll assume your love of that film is based on an emotional reaction.
Of course - it's
Star Wars, not Bergman.
Quote from: Rinaldo on April 23, 2019, 01:32:33 AMInteresting. I find TLJ on par with the originals and thought the themes it explored (the nature of the Force, the concept of a 'chosen one'..) were done very well withing the framework of its story.
I think the initial shock of
The Last Jedi caused me to give it a thumbs up, but when I attempted to watch it a second-time, I simply couldn't get through it. I can handle
The Force Awakens and accept it as a good introduction to this new trilogy even though it does borrow too much from
A New Hope. Where
The Last Jedi fails, for me, is the set up from
The Force Awakens seems to be nothing more than a distant memory. The characters haven't developed at all. All of sudden Rey is a badass Jedi, which is a problem I had with her in
The Force Awakens, too (besides the huge 'Death Star'-like planet destroyer, which was stupid). The character of Finn is completely useless and unimaginative. I have yet to figure out why he even matters. Supreme Leader Snoke was a joke as he was killed off way too early after the huge build-up of this character in the first film. Now we know absolutely nothing about the character and who exactly he was (great writing Rian Johnson...NOT!). Captain Phasma had real potential, but was another waste and throwaway character that had no relevance to anything. We find out that Rey's parents were nobodies, which, again, was a missed opportunity to somehow link her to the Jedi. Poe Dameron? Who cares! As I mentioned earlier, Kylo Ren was the only character that I felt was actually interesting and showed some kind of conflict. Anyway, I thought
The Last Jedi was a poor attempt at trying to shock audiences, but the end result was a film without a heart and, most of all, a strong narrative.
The trailer for this new film seems to be an attempt for Disney to capitalize on the nostalgia factor. To be quite honest, I think the trailer looks like crap. My only wish is that Disney will actually capitalize on something that would be prudent, which would be releasing HD remasters of the original theatrical releases of Episodes IV - VI. Now that would be an exciting proposition.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 07:08:10 AMSupreme Leader Snoke was a joke as he was killed off way too early after the huge build-up of this character in the first film. Now we know absolutely nothing about the character and who exactly he was (great writing Rian Johnson...NOT!).
What exactly did we know about the Emperor in the originals? Back then, he's a similar unknown as Snoke, just an uber-powerful guy who runs the galaxy. And Snoke's slicing was a bold move IMO - I love how it caught everyone off guard, both the character and the audience.
QuoteCaptain Phasma had real potential, but was another waste and throwaway character that had no relevance to anything.
Two words: Boba Fett 8)
QuoteWe find out that Rey's parents were nobodies, which, again, was a missed opportunity to somehow link her to the Jedi.
But that's the point of the whole episode! You don't have to be a 'chosen one' to embrace the Force.
I get that you didn't click with the characters, but I disagree about them 'not developing at all'. Even Finn has an arc now, going from someone who wants to run to someone sacrificing himself for the greater good.
Quote from: Rinaldo on April 23, 2019, 08:00:02 AM
And Snoke's slicing was a bold move IMO - I love how it caught everyone off guard, both the character and the audience
While your other points are valid enough, on this one I have to comment. The slicing of Snoke was as predictable as it could possibly be. Not to Rey, naturally, but to me, yes. And I doubt I was the only one who saw where that crappy build-up was going. ::)
My main regret is I will never watch this movie and the meaning of "the slicing of Snoke" will forever be a mystery to me. :laugh:
Quote from: Rinaldo on April 23, 2019, 08:00:02 AM
What exactly did we know about the Emperor in the originals? Back then, he's a similar unknown as Snoke, just an uber-powerful guy who runs the galaxy. And Snoke's slicing was a bold move IMO - I love how it caught everyone off guard, both the character and the audience.
Two words: Boba Fett 8)
But that's the point of the whole episode! You don't have to be a 'chosen one' to embrace the Force.
I get that you didn't click with the characters, but I disagree about them 'not developing at all'. Even Finn has an arc now, going from someone who wants to run to someone sacrificing himself for the greater good.
Some good points, but I still lack empathy for any of the main characters with the exception of Kylo Ren in this new trilogy. This I don't see changing at all. My point about the development of the main characters mainly Rey and Finn is that the change wasn't
organic and seemed unnatural to me. I don't know whether to blame the writer, the actors, or both. Any way you want to shape it, I wasn't impressed and watching these train wrecks reminds of why I love the original trilogy so much: the story, the characters, the action, the drama, etc. Everything was all there in spades. This new trilogy has been one large fragmented mess.
Quote from: Alberich on April 23, 2019, 09:27:09 AM
While your other points are valid enough, on this one I have to comment. The slicing of Snoke was as predictable as it could possibly be. Not to Rey, naturally, but to me, yes. And I doubt I was the only one who saw where that crappy build-up was going. ::)
Predictable, yes and ultimately a shitty thing to do given the massive build-up Snoke had in the previous film. Rian Johnson has single-handedly ruined this new trilogy for me. As I said, I liked
The Force Awakens, but now I'm starting to look at it as the only one of this new trilogy that's worth watching again.
I try to ignore other people as much as possible when it comes to opinions about Star Wars.
Back when the Prequel Trilogy came out I cared about what other people say and I did debate online AGGRESSIVELY so that some people called my activity phenomenal and I got a reputation of a crazy Prequel Trilogy/Lucas defender. I literally couldn't tolerate the fact that people hated Jar Jar. This was emotional and did understand it was most silly and crazy so I started to practice ignoring opinions of other people about Star Wars. I had to do it to have peace of mind and not going insane. I Started to say to myself that it doesn't matter what other people think. The only thing that matters is what I think myself. I like the movies I like and that's it. Opinions of other people do not change that. I had the same issue with Elgar, but as you know I don't care anymore.
Nowadays I kind of hate online discussion of Star Wars. Now in the Disney/Trump era even SJW is included in Star Wars discussion! So many besser-wissers whining cynically about how movie-makers can't evoke certain exact emotions in movie-goers. Only a movie you find good can be important to you. I have seen a lot of movies I don't find good. I move on instead of whining years later.
So, I feel like it's meaningless to talk about what I think about episode IX. What do you do with that information? Maybe I tell what I thought about it when I have seen it. All I say is it wouldn't be a giant loss for me if Disney stopped making Star Wars movies, but I have all of them on Blu-ray. :P
Quote from: 71 dB on April 23, 2019, 09:52:11 AM
I try to ignore other people as much as possible when it comes to opinions about Star Wars.
Back when the Prequel Trilogy came out I cared about what other people say and I did debate online AGGRESSIVELY so that some people called my activity phenomenal and I got a rebutation of a crazy Prequel Trilogy/Lucas defender. I literally couldn't tolerate the fact that people hated Jar Jar. This was emotional and did understand it was most silly and crazy so I started to practice ignoring opinions of other people about Star Wars. I had to do it to have peace of mind and not going insane. I Started to say to myself that it doesn't matter what other people think. The only thing that matters is what I think myself. I like the movies I like and that's it. Opinions of other people do not change that. I had the same issue with Elgar, but as you know I don't care anymore.
Nowadays I kind of hate online discussion of Star Wars. Now in the Disney/Trump era even SJW is included in Star Wars discussion! So many besser-wissers whining cynically about how movie-makers can't evoke certain exact emotions in movie-goers. Only a movie you find good can be important to you. I have seen a lot of movies I don't find good. I move on instead of whining years later.
So, I feel like it's meaningless to talk about what I think about episode IX. What do you do with that information? Maybe I tell what I thought about it when I have seen it. All I say is it wouldn't be a giant loss for me if Disney stopped making Star Wars movies, but I have all of them on Blu-ray. :P
Why point out the obvious, 71 dB? If people's opinions don't matter one iota to you, then you wouldn't be here. You find it to be an important thing to spout off your opinion, but then you say something like 'other people's opinions don't matter'. Well, they do indeed matter and we're all entitled to them. It's called discussion because, without it, art won't live and continue to thrive.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 09:55:37 AM
Why point out the obvious, 71 dB? If people's opinions don't matter one iota to you, then you wouldn't be here. You find it to be an important thing to spout off your opinion, but then you say something like 'other people's opinions don't matter'. Well, they do indeed matter and we're all entitled to them. It's called discussion because, without it, art won't live and continue to thrive.
You can ignore my opinion. I don't mind. In fact I think you should. Only care about your own opinion.
I haven't read this thread almost at all. Why bother? Your opinion (about Star Wars) doesn't matter to me and I don't comment on those opinions.
Quote from: 71 dB on April 23, 2019, 10:02:23 AM
You can ignore my opinion. I don't mind. In fact I think you should. Only care about your own opinion.
I haven't read this thread almost at all. Why bother? Your opinion (about Star Wars) doesn't matter to me and I don't comment on those opinions.
If it doesn't matter to you, then why comment? That's my point. You want to be heard, but you don't want to acknowledge or consider others' opinions? What a load of crap, 71 dB. Why even post on GMG if you don't want to engage in conversation with someone?
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 10:09:46 AM
If it doesn't matter to you, then why comment? That's my point. You want to be heard, but you don't want to acknowledge or consider others' opinions? What a load of crap, 71 dB. Why even post on GMG if you don't want to engage in conversation with someone?
He's describing his experience. I don't see anything he wrote that justifies ridicule.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2019, 10:15:52 AM
He's describing his experience. I don't see anything he wrote that justifies ridicule.
Over-dramatizing again, Scarpia? ::) I'm not ridiculing anyone.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 10:20:31 AM
Over-dramatizing again, Scarpia? ::) I'm not ridiculing anyone.
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 10:09:46 AM...What a load of crap, 71 dB. Why even post on GMG...?
And who is eye rolling?
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2019, 10:23:04 AM
And who is eye rolling?
Look, Scarpia, I understand that you're trying to be a hero, but, please, 71 dB can defend himself. He doesn't need your help.
I"m not trying to be a hero. I am drawing attention to behavior that I find disturbing to read.
Quote from: Alberich on April 23, 2019, 09:27:09 AMThe slicing of Snoke was as predictable as it could possibly be. Not to Rey, naturally, but to me, yes. And I doubt I was the only one who saw where that crappy build-up was going. ::)
Sure it was telegraphed that Kylo's about to do
something but I absolutely didn't expect them to deal with the big badddie in the middle of the trilogy. Which I find highly refreshing, as it opens up a brave new world of possibilities (nicely underscored by the red wall of the throne room burning up, showing the outer space behind it).
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 09:48:24 AMThis new trilogy has been one large fragmented mess.
It feels fragmented at times, I'll give you that. That was my main problem with
TFA. That and the Abramsian rehashing of
A New Hope.
Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on April 23, 2019, 09:31:12 AM
My main regret is I will never watch this movie and the meaning of "the slicing of Snoke" will forever be a mystery to me. :laugh:
Well, there's a thing in these movies called a lightsaber, I think you can do the math :D
Quote from: Rinaldo on April 23, 2019, 11:32:22 AM
Sure it was telegraphed that Kylo's about to do something but I absolutely didn't expect them to deal with the big badddie in the middle of the trilogy. Which I find highly refreshing, as it opens up a brave new world of possibilities (nicely underscored by the red wall of the throne room burning up, showing the outer space behind it).
It feels fragmented at times, I'll give you that. That was my main problem with TFA. That and the Abramsian rehashing of A New Hope.
Well, there's a thing in these movies called a lightsaber, I think you can do the math :D
Yes, I did see the original three films so I know about the lightsaber. I am in the dark about what a Snoke is, however. :)
[Narrowly avoided disaster, spell-check tried to switch snoke for an offensive term. I'd have to go on an apology tour, probably...]
Quote from: Mirror Image on April 23, 2019, 10:09:46 AM
If it doesn't matter to you, then why comment? That's my point. You want to be heard, but you don't want to acknowledge or consider others' opinions? What a load of crap, 71 dB. Why even post on GMG if you don't want to engage in conversation with someone?
This kind of shit is why I hate Star Wars discussions.
I'll probably get a load of flack for this, but let me just say that I really enjoyed The Rise of Skywalker. I was on the edge of my seat for much of the film and thought it to be really emotionally engaging. I thought it tied up all the loose ends of the previous two films in the sequel trilogy very well and had overall excellent character development. I'm sure glad I'm not as obstinately hard to please as all those Star Wars "fans" out there who won't stop complaining about the new trilogy because "it's not was George Lucas would've wanted" or whatever. So what, I thought JJ Abrams and (to a lesser extent) Rian Johnson took Star Wars in exciting new directions with the sequel trilogy and certainly renewed my interest in the franchise.
Based on what I have heard about this movie (it's a desparete ADHD mess) I'm not interested of seeing it.
Quote from: kyjo on December 31, 2019, 03:41:42 AM
I'll probably get a load of flack for this, but let me just say that I really enjoyed The Rise of Skywalker. I was on the edge of my seat for much of the film and thought it to be really emotionally engaging. I thought it tied up all the loose ends of the previous two films in the sequel trilogy very well and had overall excellent character development. I'm sure glad I'm not as obstinately hard to please as all those Star Wars "fans" out there who won't stop complaining about the new trilogy because "it's not was George Lucas would've wanted" or whatever. So what, I thought JJ Abrams and (to a lesser extent) Rian Johnson took Star Wars in exciting new directions with the sequel trilogy and certainly renewed my interest in the franchise.
I couldn't disagree more! I'm not one of those staunch, hardcore original trilogy fans (although, I still consider these three films the best of them all). What I object to is the lack of imaginative storytelling and I felt no kind of empathy for the new characters except for Kylo Ren, which Adam Driver should be commended for doing a fine job given that he had such a weak storyline.
The Empire Strikes Back, for example, had me on the edge of my seat when I first saw it when I was a kid in the 80s (I believe I saw it some time in '88). That feeling has not been recaptured and unless Disney get the dollar signs out of their sights, I'm afraid we'll never get to see another Star Wars film that actually has some depth to it.
Quote from: 71 dB on December 31, 2019, 08:16:40 AM
Based on what I have heard about this movie (it's a desparete ADHD mess) I'm not interested of seeing it.
I had no intention of seeing it, especially after reading the spoilers online. I truly had a hearty chuckle at the pathetic turn of events that are on full exhibit in
The Rise of Skywalker. I think the people who like this new trilogy are the same people who are afraid to use their own critical thinking skills and have been blinded by all of the eye candy that is happening on the screen. You can have explosions, people being killed by lightsabers, spaceship battles, etc., but without a storyline that has heart and charisma, you have nothing but an empty shell. This new trilogy stinks worse than the Dagobah swamps! :)
Well, I saw it too and enjoyed it. You can drive a truck through a lot of the plot points, but the acting has steadily improved...except for Adam Driver who I think is totally miscast and is ineffective. The movie's strength and weakness (simultaneously) is it's tug on nostalgia. There are some great moments, as long as you don't ask too many questions about why they are doing stuff. Just accept it and move on...
Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 31, 2019, 01:24:39 PM
Well, I saw it too and enjoyed it. You can drive a truck through a lot of the plot points, but the acting has steadily improved...except for Adam Driver who I think is totally miscast and is ineffective. The movie's strength and weakness (simultaneously) is it's tug on nostalgia. There are some great moments, as long as you don't ask too many questions about why they are doing stuff. Just accept it and move on...
I think this critic from the BBC hit the nail on the head when he wrote:
"The film is well acted, it looks so good that there is bound to be a fabulous tie-in coffee-table book of concept art, and it has a positive message about never giving up hope. But the main feeling it instils in the viewer is a renewed respect for the imagination of Lucas. The Rise of Skywalker has been lovingly crafted by a host of talented people, and yet the best they can do is pay tribute to everything he did several decades ago."
Nothing new is gained from this new trilogy. It's a nostalgic cash grab from Disney and nothing more. I think Disney truly thinks of Star Wars as nothing more than a cash cow and they prey on these older Star Wars fans because they know they'll breakdown and spend their hard earned money. I never have been a fan of Disney films, but I think what they have done to Lucas' legacy has been showing people how stupid they really are, but, hey, I'm guilty of falling for it, too, but this was because of my love for the original trilogy, but this is a tough lesson learned. Never again, Disney. Never again. The only thing I'm remotely interested in at this point is the HD remasters of the theatrical versions of the original trilogy, but we'll never get them, so I won't hold my breath there.
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2019, 01:35:54 PMI think Disney truly thinks of Star Wars as nothing more than a cash cow...
The irony is after
The Force Awakens Disney hasn't made that much money with these movies. Disney has even lost money (Solo). This movie will probably make 1.1-1.2 billion worldwide, maybe even the same as
The Last Jedi (1.3 billion), but considering what brand we are talking about and how much it costs to make (not to forget marketing costs) these movies such figures aren't that great at all. With competense Disney would be making 1.5-2 billion with
every movie.
Quote from: 71 dB on December 31, 2019, 02:40:05 PM
The irony is after The Force Awakens Disney hasn't made that much money with these movies. Disney has even lost money (Solo). This movie will probably make 1.1-1.2 billion worldwide, maybe even the same as The Last Jedi (1.3 billion), but considering what brand we are talking about and how much it costs to make (not to forget marketing costs) these movies such figures aren't that great at all. With competense Disney would be making 1.5-2 billion with every movie.
Perhaps this also shows that the whole Star Wars franchise is waning. It certainly has lost of a lot of it's appeal throughout the years for me. Sales figures do tell some of the tale, but, of course, not the whole tale. I think the fact that Star Wars got so huge has actually hurt it in the end. It's become a parody of itself.
I have not seen episode IX and based on what I've heard I won't in the near future either. However, no matter how badly The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker may have fucked up everything in Star Wars canon, they can never be as incredibly bad as for ex. love scenes and love dialogue from Attack of the Clones. It takes a special kind of (lack of) talent to create something so inherently awful as that. At least Force Awakens was great and I chuckled admittedly a few times when watching The Last Jedi. For those that say Star Wars is dead should acknowledge the beginning of decline way earlier than The Last Jedi or Rise of Skywalker.
Quote from: AlberichUndHagen on January 01, 2020, 07:09:33 AM
I have not seen episode IX and based on what I've heard I won't in the near future either. However, no matter how badly The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker may have fucked up everything in Star Wars canon, they can never be as incredibly bad as for ex. love scenes and love dialogue from Attack of the Clones. It takes a special kind of (lack of) talent to create something so inherently awful as that. At least Force Awakens was great and I chuckled admittedly a few times when watching The Last Jedi. For those that say Star Wars is dead should acknowledge the beginning of decline way earlier than The Last Jedi or Rise of Skywalker.
What people don't get is Lucas wasn't in the business of only stuff that is "cool". He was in the business of telling stories and sometimes stories include moments which are less "cool". Anakin was a socially akward Jedi in a very difficult situation so the dialogue was totally proper, just not "cool" to movie goers "spoiled" with boring stories where everything is "cool".
Attack of the Clones is a great movie and superior to what Disney has done.
Quote from: kyjo on December 31, 2019, 03:41:42 AM
I'll probably get a load of flack for this, but let me just say that I really enjoyed The Rise of Skywalker. I was on the edge of my seat for much of the film and thought it to be really emotionally engaging. I thought it tied up all the loose ends of the previous two films in the sequel trilogy very well and had overall excellent character development. I'm sure glad I'm not as obstinately hard to please as all those Star Wars "fans" out there who won't stop complaining about the new trilogy because "it's not was George Lucas would've wanted" or whatever. So what, I thought JJ Abrams and (to a lesser extent) Rian Johnson took Star Wars in exciting new directions with the sequel trilogy and certainly renewed my interest in the franchise.
Gentleman, gentleman...no need to argue, you can both be wrong. I'm a Star Wars purist so to define the terms, this doesn't mean we believe everything must be sanctioned and approved by Lucas who can do no fault (prequels *cough*) but rather that the story should be constructed from the outset rather than as a TV episode. In LOST, JJ Abrams co-wrote a two page outline that laid out the mystery of the island, the basic characters (some made it the show and others didn't, most morphed), the drama. What they don't know is how long a show will last. So with a compelling intro, they can stretch it out as long as need be. That is a very bad way of producing an epic drama like Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, or a Star Wars trilogy. These things have to be tightly interwoven unraveling of stories, increasing obstacles, all sort of making logical sense along the way. It doesn't have to be perfect. It does have to avoid laziness (or the appearance of it). that is where the Disney sequel trilogy fails is it didn't have a grand plan despite what the creators will say...JJ said the same about Lost, that he knew how the story would end just not how it got there but the truth is, no one knew where the story was going...the treatment showed that it was just a mystery box setup. Again, great for dragging out a tv series beyond its value but not great for something you get in brief increments where all the story needs to be interwoven and carefully constructed. The music is great though!
Quote from: 71 dB on January 01, 2020, 10:36:24 AM
What people don't get is Lucas wasn't in the business of only stuff that is "cool". He was in the business of telling stories and sometimes stories include moments which are less "cool". Anakin was a socially akward Jedi in a very difficult situation so the dialogue was totally proper, just not "cool" to movie goers "spoiled" with boring stories where everything is "cool".
Attack of the Clones is a great movie and superior to what Disney has done.
I think it would be very wrong to purposefully create cringe-worthy dialogue. Besides, there are countless other bad things with prequels.
Oh boy, what a mess. Glad some of you have enjoyed the new one, I certainly didn't. Tying all the loose ends? And strangling itself with them, yeah.
I hope for a day when people come back to
The Last Jedi and see it for what it is – a delightful (and thoughtful!) Star Wars romp.
Quote from: bibliokleptA break with any tradition, however, paradoxically confirms the power of that tradition. Johnson understands and clearly respects the Star Wars tradition. Despite what his detractors may believe, Johnson hasn't erased or trampled upon the Star Wars mythos in The Last Jedi; rather, as the Modernist manifesto commanded, he's made it new.
The Last Jedi and the Anxiety of Influence
The Rise of Skywalker was nowhere near as enjoyable or interesting as my favourite Star Wars movie: The Last Jedi. Furthermore it seemed to retcon brilliant ideas for Rey's character and I was sad to see Rose sidelined for much of it. I wish there was a Finn and Poe romance if anything lol
I remember when Star Wars came out, and what made it a game changer was the special effects, which were a world beyond what had ever been seen before. It wasn't computer generated imagery, but they used computer controls for the movement of the camera, allowing the camera to follow a mathematically defined trajectory through the scene, making it possible to create composite shots with absolutely consistent perspective. The result, with the immaculately built models, is better than any CGI junk they produce today. It was that, and Harrison Ford's swagger, that made the films.
After that, Star wars films used the same special effects as all of the other sci-fi films being made and there was nothing special about them. The plots and dialog in Star Wars films have been puerile fluff from the beginning, and to claim that the late ones don't measure up to the originals as "literature" strikes me as bizarre.
Disclaimer, I've only seen the first six, the original three, and the three subsequent films that had Natalie Portman (a poor substitute for Carrie Fisher and her cast-iron bikini).
Yeah that's pretty much the main reason I suspected that the original Star Wars is so historically significant as a film. It's kind of sad that George Lucas had to go and make the original theatrical release inaccessible when he fiddled with it and added extra CGI scenes and even replaced quite a significant amount of the groundbreaking work from the 70s with CGI sequences that did not even look as good, or even realistic. I have watched Harmy's de-specialised edition of Star Wars, which is an HD fan-produced edit of the original movie that brings it all the way back, as close as it possibly can, to how it would have looked in theatres in 1977. There are still a couple of very very minor things, you might notice if you look hard enough for them, that show that it was kind of a patchwork job, but it's a really impressive feat of digital editing in and of itself.
Carrie Fisher's cast-iron what lmfao how old are you?
(https://image.insider.com/5862b63e55b10621008b48a0?width=1900&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
The best release was a LaserDisc (a 12" analog optical disc that preceded blue-ray). Someone must have made a digital copy of one of those.
Lucas is such a jerk. Those original films are part of the culture and it is idiotic and egotistical that he won't let people buy the film as they want it.
I read somewhere that he didn't like the subsequent films and felt that his characters had been "raped," or something to that effect. More like he sold them.
I will say there's a small amount of enjoyable (if silly) stuff in the various tie-in novels, comics, tv series etc that have been part of the franchise... although most of those have since been cancelled thanks to the Disney reboot. (Although I hear The Mandalorian is fun, but have no intention of purchasing a Disney+ subscription)
Whenever people talk about star wars the element that seems to have fired their imaginations is the intimation of a larger universe beyond what we can see onscreen. I think the result of that in terms of media has been that the most interesting stuff is that which departs from the narrow path of Skywalker family drama and the iconic central characters.
(I've only really watched the first film but own several of the novel adaptations for... some reason.... (possibly inherited from a relative) and have spent some time with various other auxiliary media)
I am slightly too young to have seen the first movies in the theater although I remember classmates and older children talking about The Return of the Jedi (My parents abhorred most fantasy/SF and although I was allowed to see Neverending Story they would probably not have allowed Star wars).
In any case, I passed the window of attraction. The first SW movie I saw was "Return..." on TV in my early/mid twenties and I mostly found it rather silly. I also lacked the context although the friends I was watching it with explained the most important stuff.
A few years later I saw all three of the old trilogy on TV but as I said, the window had passed and I could not at all get involved, so I never bothered with any of the more recent movies. I am puzzled that adults care so much about that stuff and it also seems a considerable achievement that the later movies managed to attract an audience mostly too young to have any nostalgia for the ca. 1980 movies.
Quote from: Ratliff on January 03, 2020, 10:18:15 PM
Lucas is such a jerk.
A jerk that gave us Star Wars and Indiana Jones.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 04, 2020, 05:05:18 AM
A jerk that gave us Star Wars and Indiana Jones.
I didn't say he had no talent. He gave us Star Wars, he took our Star Wars away, he sold Star Wars, then he whinged about it. :)
I liked the original trilogy, looks like I'll never see it again, unless I can find an old set of VHS tapes and a player on eBay. :(
Quote from: Ratliff on January 04, 2020, 08:47:33 AM
I didn't say he had no talent. He gave us Star Wars, he took our Star Wars away, he sold Star Wars, then he whinged about it. :)
I liked the original trilogy, looks like I'll never see it again, unless I can find an old set of VHS tapes and a player on eBay. :(
I have the movies on Blu-ray (and DVD, but who cares) and I'm fine with how they are, changes approved by the man himself. Nothing has been "taken away" from me.
Quote from: Ratliff on January 03, 2020, 10:18:15 PM
(https://image.insider.com/5862b63e55b10621008b48a0?width=1900&format=jpeg&auto=webp)
The best release was a LaserDisc (a 12" analog optical disc that preceded blue-ray). Someone must have made a digital copy of one of those.
Lucas is such a jerk. Those original films are part of the culture and it is idiotic and egotistical that he won't let people buy the film as they want it.
I read somewhere that he didn't like the subsequent films and felt that his characters had been "raped," or something to that effect. More like he sold them.
I have the original trilogy on LaserDisc and, yes, it's awesome. LaserDisc actually preceded DVD, which in turn preceded Blu-Ray. LaserDisc has been around since the late 70s I believe. I remember my dad buying one in the 80s (he was in the video production business and usually stayed on top of the latest developments in technology at the time). It was a pretty cool medium. It's too bad that the original theatrical versions of these wonderful films never made it to DVD. Like you, I don't believe Lucas should've ever messed with what had already been presented to the public. It's like David Gilmour going back into the studio and re-recording his guitar solo to
Another Brick in the Wall, Part II just because he wasn't happy with the way it sounded years later. I'm sorry but once something is recorded and people can buy the recording. That's it. It's now a part of the public subconscious.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 04, 2020, 08:55:59 AM
I have the movies on Blu-ray (and DVD, but who cares) and I'm fine with how they are, changes approved by the man himself. Nothing has been "taken away" from me.
Yes, but not all art should be tampered with and the fact that he didn't go back to the films until years later to alter them tells me it was more about making some serious cash then anything 'artistic'. His artistic decisions weren't too convincing, because of the contrasts in technology. It's just awkward to watch and I seriously think he butchered them all. Oh well, I still have the LaserDisc versions that I transferred to DVD. Those are the definitive versions of the films and the films that everybody who's a fan of the original trilogy will always remember.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2020, 06:47:46 PM
It's too bad that the original theatrical versions of these wonderful films never made it to DVD.
They did in some boxset as extras, but the quality isn't high.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2020, 06:52:19 PM
Yes, but not all art should be tampered with and the fact that he didn't go back to the films until years later to alter them tells me it was more about making some serious cash then anything 'artistic'. His artistic decisions weren't too convincing, because of the contrasts in technology. It's just awkward to watch and I seriously think he butchered them all. Oh well, I still have the LaserDisc versions that I transferred to DVD. Those are the definitive versions of the films and the films that everybody who's a fan of the original trilogy will always remember.
Well, you have a problem. I don't have.
For anyone interested in the theatrical versions of the original trilogy, seek the Despecialized Edition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmy%27s_Despecialized_Edition), a gargantuan piece of work that is absolutely worth the trouble of seeking it on torrent sites.
A transfer of the laserdisc edition was made available as a bonus to this edition of the dvd:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911uAMIhbqL._SY550_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Episode-IV-Limited/dp/B000FQJAIW
prices seem quite reasonable
Quote from: 71 dB on January 04, 2020, 05:05:18 AM
A jerk that gave us Star Wars and Indiana Jones.
You are aware that if Lucas would have had his way, Star Wars would have been very very different (and consequently, worse) than what it turned out to be? The actors and the crew constantly challenged his ideas and complained about woody dialogue and directing. Lawrence Kasdan also improved greatly both Star Wars lore and Raiders of the lost ark and also Spielberg must be given way more credit with Indiana Jones than Lucas. As with both Star Wars and Indiana Jones, Lucas may have had the original idea which started the franchises which even then turned out to be way different from the films that eventually were made but Lucas hardly had anything to do with either Star Wars or Indiana Jones that the public knows and loves today. If he'd had, they had all been awful.
Quote from: AlberichUndHagen on January 05, 2020, 08:32:39 AM
You are aware that if Lucas would have had his way, Star Wars would have been very very different (and consequently, worse) than what it turned out to be? The actors and the crew constantly challenged his ideas and complained about woody dialogue and directing. Lawrence Kasdan also improved greatly both Star Wars lore and Raiders of the lost ark and also Spielberg must be given way more credit with Indiana Jones than Lucas. As with both Star Wars and Indiana Jones, Lucas may have had the original idea which started the franchises which even then turned out to be way different from the films that eventually were made but Lucas hardly had anything to do with either Star Wars or Indiana Jones that the public knows and loves today. If he'd had, they had all been awful.
The original star wars was a collaborative effort, the result of different strong personalities colliding. There's also Dykstra, the visional special effects director who developed the camera control systems and the image collage techniques. It is a shame that later Lucas' control-freak mentality took over and he ruined Dykstra's original work, which was a turning point in film production, and has historical as well as artistic value.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 04, 2020, 06:47:46 PM
I have the original trilogy on LaserDisc and, yes, it's awesome. LaserDisc actually preceded DVD, which in turn preceded Blu-Ray. LaserDisc has been around since the late 70s I believe. I remember my dad buying one in the 80s (he was in the video production business and usually stayed on top of the latest developments in technology at the time). It was a pretty cool medium. It's too bad that the original theatrical versions of these wonderful films never made it to DVD. Like you, I don't believe Lucas should've ever messed with what had already been presented to the public. It's like David Gilmour going back into the studio and re-recording his guitar solo to Another Brick in the Wall, Part II just because he wasn't happy with the way it sounded years later. I'm sorry but once something is recorded and people can buy the recording. That's it. It's now a part of the public subconscious.
Your laserdiscs still play?
Decades ago when the format was almost dead I bough a player on eBay for $20, as well as a few laserdiscs. I wanted to watch the Karajan/Rheingold, which wasn't on DVD at the time. I also got a few other discs, maybe a Star Wars film. But it was an analog system and it seemed like some of the discs had deteriorated. There was something called disc rot(?).
Quote from: Mirror Image on December 31, 2019, 12:28:38 PM
I had no intention of seeing it, especially after reading the spoilers online. I truly had a hearty chuckle at the pathetic turn of events that are on full exhibit in The Rise of Skywalker. I think the people who like this new trilogy are the same people who are afraid to use their own critical thinking skills and have been blinded by all of the eye candy that is happening on the screen. You can have explosions, people being killed by lightsabers, spaceship battles, etc., but without a storyline that has heart and charisma, you have nothing but an empty shell. This new trilogy stinks worse than the Dagobah swamps! :)
Well, good to know that I lack critical thinking skills... ::) Once again, John, you refuse to get off your high horse and accept the fact that your opinion is not truth.
Quote from: AlberichUndHagen on January 05, 2020, 08:32:39 AM
You are aware that if Lucas would have had his way, Star Wars would have been very very different (and consequently, worse) than what it turned out to be? The actors and the crew constantly challenged his ideas and complained about woody dialogue and directing. Lawrence Kasdan also improved greatly both Star Wars lore and Raiders of the lost ark and also Spielberg must be given way more credit with Indiana Jones than Lucas. As with both Star Wars and Indiana Jones, Lucas may have had the original idea which started the franchises which even then turned out to be way different from the films that eventually were made but Lucas hardly had anything to do with either Star Wars or Indiana Jones that the public knows and loves today. If he'd had, they had all been awful.
You can say this about any movie maker. Everybody has their weaknesses. Somehow Star Wars and Indiana Jones became massive icons of popular culture despite of Lucas's involment while non-Lucas productions struggle to do that same, just look at what Disney has done. Lucas is a genius, a visionary who has changed cinema a lot. It's pointless to try to downplay his role in cinema history.
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 04, 2020, 11:05:22 PM
A transfer of the laserdisc edition was made available as a bonus to this edition of the dvd:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/911uAMIhbqL._SY550_.jpg)
https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Episode-IV-Limited/dp/B000FQJAIW
prices seem quite reasonable
Well, it's pretty dreadful. Definitely a poor effort at presenting us with the so-called 'theatrical' release (wrong aspect ratio, i believe) compared to Harmy's De-Specialised which is in glorious HD and removes all the changes made to it in subsequent releases.
Quote from: jess on January 05, 2020, 07:00:52 PM
Well, it's pretty dreadful. Definitely a poor effort at presenting us with the so-called 'theatrical' release (wrong aspect ratio, i believe) compared to Harmy's De-Specialised which is in glorious HD and removes all the changes made to it in subsequent releases.
True, all they did was transfer from one format to another, which creates some problems with the special effects for reasons I don't understand, most noticeably in the area of black square around spaceships etc being a different shade to the black of the surrounding space.
Quote from: Ratliff on January 05, 2020, 08:52:48 AM
Your laserdiscs still play?
Decades ago when the format was almost dead I bough a player on eBay for $20, as well as a few laserdiscs. I wanted to watch the Karajan/Rheingold, which wasn't on DVD at the time. I also got a few other discs, maybe a Star Wars film. But it was an analog system and it seemed like some of the discs had deteriorated. There was something called disc rot(?).
Yep or, at least, as far as I know they do. I haven't played any of them in a couple of years, but I did get
The Empire Strikes Back out to look at it and it seems fine to me. No signs of deterioration.
Quote from: kyjo on January 05, 2020, 09:05:51 AM
Well, good to know that I lack critical thinking skills... ::) Once again, John, you refuse to get off your high horse and accept the fact that your opinion is not truth.
I never said or implied my opinion
was the truth. But I think the part where I said people who like the new trilogy lack critical thinking skills can be taken as a joke as there are obviously many intelligent people who have enjoyed it. Anyway, there's no right or wrong answer when giving an opinion of a piece of music, art, film, etc. It's subjective, but I've spoken with many Star Wars fans from different age groups that have said they have been disappointed in the direction Disney is taking this franchise. Just because you don't agree with my opinion, doesn't mean it doesn't hold some water.
Watched it today.
Entertaining stuff, mostly good for eye candy. Yeah, the story doesn't have much depth to it but I'm not looking for it in Star Wars.
That auditorium, though... would be the perfect place to play a death metal concert. Lol.
I was thinking about going to see The Rise of Skywalker, but then I suddenly came to my senses. :)
Quote from: greg on January 05, 2020, 09:16:37 PMEntertaining stuff, mostly good for eye candy.
So is pretty much any $200 million flick with tons of effects in it. That's the problem. Star Wars should be something
special and Disney has come a long way "despecializing" Star Wars. :-\ Star Wars isn't any more special than Frozen or Jumanji movies. ???
I have no problem with people liking/enjoying Disney Star Wars. Even I enjoy it here and there (the latter part of Rogue One for example is a cool prelude to Episode IV), but personally I want "Lucas touch" in my Star Wars, and Disney Star Wars doesn't give much of that, does it? Instead of Jar Jar Binks they give you Mary Sue.
Since George Lucas is nowadays a bitter (thanks to those who hated the prequels) man (betrayed by Kathleen Kennedy and Bob Iger) who makes movies only for himself (and close friends to see) and having other kind of cultural interests (museum of contemporary art) I have to find new movie makers to discover things that are interesting to me. In the recent years I have explored some directors such as Rainer Werner Fassbinder and David Cronenberg. I have developped an affection to the movies of the 70's and 80's while becomming distanced of 21st century cinema. In other words I am getting old.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2020, 03:27:35 AM
I have developped an affection to the movies of the 70's and 80's while becomming distanced of 21st century cinema. In other words I am getting old.
That's great and all, but couldn't movies be remade exactly the same but with better picture quality? Today we have 4k seems like we should be able to enjoy classic stuff with better image quality.
What I mean is, do a remake with similar actors, exact same script, exact everything as much as possible. I've played a few games that were remade with just updated graphics and nothing else (Spyro and Crash Bandicoot trilogies) so seems like it should be possible with everything but the same actors.
Quote from: greg on January 06, 2020, 06:59:59 AM
That's great and all, but couldn't movies be remade exactly the same but with better picture quality? Today we have 4k seems like we should be able to enjoy classic stuff with better image quality.
What I mean is, do a remake with similar actors, exact same script, exact everything as much as possible. I've played a few games that were remade with just updated graphics and nothing else (Spyro and Crash Bandicoot trilogies) so seems like it should be possible with everything but the same actors.
Well, 2K (Blu-ray) is enough picture quality for me and I believe many older movies are available on 4K. I don't see the point of remaking movies just to improve picture quality as you can have pristine 4K picture of old movies restoring and transfering them carefully. Not cheap, but much cheaper than remakes.
Soon it might be possible to have older tv-shows shot on SD video upscaled to HD convincingly using AI. We already have that for pictures and it shouldn't be impossible to teach AI to render natural looking HD video from SD video.
Quote from: greg on January 06, 2020, 06:59:59 AM
That's great and all, but couldn't movies be remade exactly the same but with better picture quality? Today we have 4k seems like we should be able to enjoy classic stuff with better image quality.
Motion pictures shot on 35mm or 70mm film have sufficient resolution to justify a hi-res transfer.
And the thought that the resources necessary to make a movie would be devoted to rote mimicry of an old film is just depressing.
QuoteWhat I mean is, do a remake with similar actors, exact same script, exact everything as much as possible. I've played a few games that were remade with just updated graphics and nothing else (Spyro and Crash Bandicoot trilogies) so seems like it should be possible with everything but the same actors.
Movies are made with human beings. Upgrading graphics resolution on a video game and re-making a movie are not analogous processes.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 06, 2020, 03:27:35 AM
Instead of Jar Jar Binks they give you Mary Sue.
You think JarJar a more interesting character than Rey? And an example of Lucas genius??
Quote from: SimonNZ on January 06, 2020, 12:38:48 PM
You think JarJar a more interesting character than Rey? And an example of Lucas genius??
Yes and yes.
Quote from: Ratliff on January 06, 2020, 12:17:39 PM
Motion pictures shot on 35mm or 70mm film have sufficient resolution to justify a hi-res transfer.
Does this mean it's possible to upscale the old Star Wars movies to 4K then? (i don't know what type of film was used for those movies)
Quote from: greg on January 06, 2020, 02:32:38 PM
Does this mean it's possible to upscale the old Star Wars movies to 4K then? (i don't know what type of film was used for those movies)
You don't have to upscale anything, there's enough 'data' in the original film.
Quote from: Rinaldo on January 06, 2020, 06:16:47 PM
You don't have to upscale anything, there's enough 'data' in the original film.
That is correct. The original negative is 35 mm, and that is roughly equivalent in resolution to 4k video. They just have to do the transfer with hi-rez equipment. The same would be true of any major theatrical release. However, for Star Wars it is a moot point, since Lukas refuses to release the original Star Wars films in any format.
It was interesting to see the blue-ray release of the original Star Trek. Those were produced using 35mm film but the special effects were done using video equipment at convention television resolution. So you see an perfectly sharp picture, with visibly lower resolution special effects superimposed. It is also somewhat awkward, because at high resolution you can see how shabby the sets were, since the were only supposed to look good on standard television resolution.
Quote from: Ratliff on January 06, 2020, 07:41:59 PM
That is correct. The original negative is 35 mm, and that is roughly equivalent in resolution to 4k video. They just have to do the transfer with hi-rez equipment. The same would be true of any major theatrical release. However, for Star Wars it is a moot point, since Lukas refuses to release the original Star Wars films in any format.
It was interesting to see the blue-ray release of the original Star Trek. Those were produced using 35mm film but the special effects were done using video equipment at convention television resolution. So you see an perfectly sharp picture, with visibly lower resolution special effects superimposed. It is also somewhat awkward, because at high resolution you can see how shabby the sets were, since the were only supposed to look good on standard television resolution.
The story I heard is that he cant now because he canibalised all the original masters making the ruined versions.
The main US hall-of-famish film archive - I cant remember its name - requested the inclusion of Star Wars, he sent them RV, they sent it back saying it was '77 that was the classic and he said it was no longer available and he couldn't recreate it anymore.
The Star Wars wikipedia page describes something similar, they originally made composite negatives from different types of film stock that had to be separated and cleaned, and subsequently re-composited digitally with new special effects. Gives the impression that re-creating the original would have been possible but a huge ordeal, comparable to producing the special edition. They do mention that the national film archive has a print of the original theatrical release that they have digitized at hi-rez and which can be viewed by appointment.
The only release to the public on DVD was that special edition, which was transferred from a low resolution non-anamorphic laser disc, probably deliberately chosen to make the new edition seem a great improvement. Even if they weren't prepared to go back to the original negatives, a hi-rez transfer from a theatrical print would probably have satisfied everyone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_(film)