Can anyone recommend a version of Handel's Giulio Cesare that meets the following criteria?:
1) That all characters are casted accordingly (I.E., no female sopranos for male roles. Who though this up, exactly? I had to ditch Rene Jacobs version, as fine as it was, just because i couldn't stand the idea).
2) Be period instruments.
3) Outstanding performance and sonics (duh).
4) Singers actually know how to sing in Italian.
Thanks.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 05:05:44 PM
1) That all characters are casted accordingly
Don't you mean
castrated accordingly?
Edit
Ha yes, the castrati, is this why they do it? Does anybody even know what a castrated singer sounds like? I can't even begin to fathom how ridiculous it must look to have women play male roles on stage.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 06:59:31 PM
Ha yes, the castrati, is this why they do it? Does anybody even know what a castrated singer sounds like?
Recordings exist for only one castrato, Alessandro Moreschi, a singer from the Sistine Chapel from the latter part of the 19th century. His recordings were made in 1902, when he was in his 40s and his voice was (by then) way past its prime. It must be stressed that Moreschi was a "church" singer, not an opera singer – his style would have been VERY different to that which would have been required to sing the Handel operatic repertoire.
Here's a link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbV6PGAWaIU) to a recording of Moreschi singing from 1902.
QuoteI can't even begin to fathom how ridiculous it must look to have women play male roles on stage.
"Trouser" roles are VERY common in opera; composers from Mozart to Strauss have written some very famous pieces for such situations. It's really just a matter of being able to suspend disbelief; if you can cope with a dramatic situation where a 150 Kg tenor is portraying the role of a starving student, or a "matronly" soprano is playing a teenaged girl; then a woman dressed as a man shouldn't present too much of a dramatic difficulty.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 05:05:44 PM
Can anyone recommend a version of Handel's Giulio Cesare that meets the following criteria?:
1) That all characters are casted accordingly (I.E., no female sopranos for male roles. Who though this up, exactly? I had to ditch Rene Jacobs version, as fine as it was, just because i couldn't stand the idea).
Ditching the recording by Jacobs for such a reason is unbelievable.
Since there is no recording that matches your criteria, I guess I'll have to do without. ::)
BTW that would apply to most Italian baroque operas. ;D
Q
If you have problems with females singing roles written for male castrati, you have two options IMHO:
1. Find another interst area than baroque opera
2. Work with your obvious hangups about women prtending to be men.
Sorry, but there you are.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 05:05:44 PM
Can anyone recommend a version of Handel's Giulio Cesare that meets the following criteria?:
1) That all characters are casted accordingly (I.E., no female sopranos for male roles. Who though this up, exactly? I had to ditch Rene Jacobs version, as fine as it was, just because i couldn't stand the idea).
In the original production of
Giulio Cesare, the role of Sesto was sung by one Margherita Durastanti. Obviously Handel didn't know what he was doing, and modern productions that cast a countertenor in the role are more HIP than Handel himself was. ;D
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 06:59:31 PM
Ha yes, the castrati, is this why they do it? Does anybody even know what a castrated singer sounds like? I can't even begin to fathom how ridiculous it must look to have women play male roles on stage.
I think one of the great things about recordings is that looks aren't really a consideration. Imagine they look however you like (also works with Pavarotti recordings). On the Glydebourne DVD, I find Sarah Connolly and Andrea Kirchschlager make fairly convincing males.
I imagine some folks in Handel's time said "I can't even begin to fathom how ridiculous it must sound to have high-voiced eunuchs play heroic male roles on stage."
In any case, I wish I could help you find a recording that meets your standards (Jacobs meets my standards, so I've quit looking). I know a guy at another board who's a huge Handel freak and probably has every recording of
Cesare that's ever been issued. I'll make a post there and see if he answers.
Edit: It just occurred to me: Are countertenors OK by you, or do you want the male roles transposed and sung by actual tenors/baritones/basses, like Richter's DG version? I don't think any modern period-instrument performance would use those "normal" male voices.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 05:05:44 PM
Can anyone recommend a version of Handel's Giulio Cesare that meets the following criteria?:
1) That all characters are casted accordingly (I.E., no female sopranos for male roles. Who though this up, exactly? I had to ditch Rene Jacobs version, as fine as it was, just because i couldn't stand the idea).
2) Be period instruments.
3) Outstanding performance and sonics (duh).
4) Singers actually know how to sing in Italian.
Thanks.
Then you've given up the best version, and you won't find any others meeting your criteria. It's not just a matter of dramatic illusion; the concern is also vocal register. Handel conceived these parts for sopranos, and having baritones or basses rumble along in their manly transpositions (as Fischer-Dieskau and Norman Treigle did when playing Caesar in the older days) completely distorts and muddies the textures Handel conceived. Since we're not likely ever to hear castrati live, female voices are the only suitable substitute.
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 25, 2007, 02:59:27 AM
In the original production of Giulio Cesare, the role of Sesto was sung by one Margherita Durastanti. Obviously Handel didn't know what he was doing, and modern productions that cast a countertenor in the role are more HIP than Handel himself was. ;D
Yes, it's important to remember that Sesto was originally sung by a woman in trousers, so I'm not sure what the problem is here.
That said, there is an excellent 1999 live version from the Met where David Daniels does extremely well even at that high vocal pitch (you can get it at Opera Share among other places).
"Unfortunately", Jennifer Larmore is singing Cesare so that one is out too. Recording quality isn't top-tier either (it's a radio broadcast).
Quote from: Tancata on August 25, 2007, 04:48:42 AM
That said, there is an excellent 1999 live version from the Met where David Daniels does extremely well even at that high vocal pitch (you can get it at Opera Share among other places).
Quite true - I completely forget about the countertenors.
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 25, 2007, 02:59:27 AM
In the original production of Giulio Cesare, the role of Sesto was sung by one Margherita Durastanti. Obviously Handel didn't know what he was doing,
This gets better and better! ;D
Quoteand modern productions that cast a countertenor in the role are more HIP than Handel himself was. ;D
Completely
wrong is more like it! :)
Q
Schopenhauer was right. Opera truly is a filthy mistake. And to think i approached the genre with the best intentions. Never mind then, no Handel for me i guess.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 25, 2007, 05:36:02 AM
Schopenhauer was right. Opera truly is a filthy mistake. And to think i approached the genre with the best intentions. Never mind then, no Handel for me i guess.
;D
Surrender! Resistance is futile!
You can enjoy a lot of opera without Handel. I have been listening for 10 years and am just beginning now to enjoy Handel and Gluck; so avoid them. Perhaps we could list the operas of non-baroque composers with trouser roles and you could avoid those.
Here are some:
Le Nozzi di Figaro (am so sad to list this one. It is arguably the best opera ever written (Mozart - this one is from the Classical period)
Der Rosenkavalier (Richard Strauss - not the same as Johann Straus - Romantic period)
Un Ballo in Mascera - (Verdi - Romantic period)
Can't think of any others at the moment. Just don't turn away from opera in general because of a few trouser roles. There are far more operas without trouser roles than with.
Quote from: Anne on August 25, 2007, 07:24:06 AM
You can enjoy a lot of opera without Handel. I have been listening for 10 years and am just beginning now to enjoy Handel and Gluck; so avoid them. Perhaps we could list the operas of non-baroque composers with trouser roles and you could avoid those.
Here are some: (from the Romantic period)
Le Nozzi di Figaro (am so sad to list this one. It is arguably the best opera ever written (Mozart - this one is from the Classical period)
Der Rosenkavalier (Richard Strauss - not the same as Johann Straus)
Un Ballo in Mascera - Verdi
Can't think of any others at the moment. Just don't turn away from opera in general because of a few trouser rolls. There are far more operas without trouser rolls than with.
Quite right. I'm sure you'll find operas where people take off their pants.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 25, 2007, 07:32:49 AM
Quite right. I'm sure you'll find operas where people take off their pants.
Larry,
I was just correcting some errors in my original post when you already quoted me. Sorry about the errors.
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 25, 2007, 06:48:39 AM
;D
Surrender! Resistance is futile!
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z245/tapiola/borgqueen.gif)
I didn't know the Borg were opera fans.
Quote from: Larry Rinkel on August 25, 2007, 07:32:49 AM
Quite right. I'm sure you'll find operas where people take off their pants.
LOL
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 06:59:31 PM
Ha yes, the castrati, is this why they do it? Does anybody even know what a castrated singer sounds like? I can't even begin to fathom how ridiculous it must look to have women play male roles on stage.
What? Even those male roles that were written for female singers, like Cherubino in
Le Nozze di Figaro, Octavian in
Der Rosenkavalier, Orlovsky in
Die Fledermaus? And, now that I come to think of it, I'm pretty sure there are some male Handel roles that were written for female singers.
Quote from: Corey on August 25, 2007, 07:38:11 AM
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z245/tapiola/borgqueen.gif)
I didn't know the Borg were opera fans.
That's one hot Borg you have there. Is cybernetic love admissible in their culture?
Quote from: Tsaraslondon on August 25, 2007, 01:50:05 PM
What? Even those male roles that were written for female singers, like Cherubino in Le Nozze di Figaro, Octavian in Der Rosenkavalier, Orlovsky in Die Fledermaus? And, now that I come to think of it, I'm pretty sure there are some male Handel roles that were written for female singers.
Anything that throws my suspension of disbelief out of the window and into a pool of half-starved sharks is abhorrent in my eyes. I don't know about those later examples, but the Handel one threw me off a balcony. If it was the intention of the composer to use those dreadful
castrati or even female singers for male roles (including Caesar for god sake) then he is at fault for folding under the pressure of the terrible tastes of the Italians. I understand he was out to make a buck most of the times, but this was supposed to be his operatic masterpiece.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 25, 2007, 05:48:40 PM
If it was the intention of the composer to use those dreadful castrati or even female singers for male roles (including Caesar for god sake) then he is at fault for folding under the pressure of the terrible tastes of the Italians.
Handel wrote the role of Cesare for the famous castrato, Senesino – the castrati were the superstars of the opera world in Handel's time. There are 3 castrati roles in
Giulio Cesare (Cesare, Tolomeo and Nireno).
Performances of most of Handel's operas will involve some vocal compromises – they simply cannot be cast (today) as Handel intended – usually those castrati roles will be taken by male counter tenors or (female) mezzos or altos in "trouser" roles. The least successful compromise will involve transposing those castrati roles so that they can be performed by tenors or baritones; even though Handel himself was involved in such practices for some revivals.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 25, 2007, 05:48:40 PM
Anything that throws my suspension of disbelief out of the window and into a pool of half-starved sharks is abhorrent in my eyes. I don't know about those later examples, but the Handel one threw me off a balcony. If it was the intention of the composer to use those dreadful castrati or even female singers for male roles (including Caesar for god sake) then he is at fault for folding under the pressure of the terrible tastes of the Italians. I understand he was out to make a buck most of the times, but this was supposed to be his operatic masterpiece.
Some are worse than others - for some reason I find Brigitte Fassbaender makes a very convincing adolescent male, and in two Carlos Kleiber productions (on DG DVD) of Der Fleidermaus and Rosenkavalier it works well. Even the Glyndebourne Giulio Cesare DVD isn't very problematic - at first Caesar seemed odd, but becomes familiar very quickly due to the good acting, and Sesto was even less of a problem. Plus the rest of the production is incredible and would be a huge shame to miss out on.
Edit: Plus, it is also helpful to not take opera 100% seriously and just enjoy the sounds and strange farsical plots. With baroque opera, it feels so... remote to me, both stylistically and emotionally, that I find it a lot easier to accept strange things in them than more recent ones.
I like the Jacobs, but also the Marc Minkowski (with Magdalena Kozena and Anne Sophie von Otter).
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 24, 2007, 06:59:31 PM
I can't even begin to fathom how ridiculous it must look to have women play male roles on stage.
You might want to watch the DVD of Janet Baker in the role of
Julius Caesar. She is a class act. Good acting, sings very well, has the imperious bearing of a general and her actions would not offend you. She knows where to draw the line in her demeanor when acting as a man.
She also sings the role of Orfeo in Gluck's opera (from Glyndebourne),
Orfeo ed Euridice; this opera has the most gorgeous music! Again she sings very well, acts very well but again knows how far to go in her interpretation of Orfeo so it does not offend viewers.
I do not have a lot of tolerance for trouser roles; it depends who and how the roles are sung.
Why not be adventurous, daring, open-minded and way ahead of the old folks? Pre-order this one:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//HMD9909008-09.htm
>:D
Quote from: uffeviking on August 26, 2007, 09:14:54 AM
Why not be adventurous, daring, open-minded and way ahead of the old folks? Pre-order this one:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//HMD9909008-09.htm
From the write-up, it doesn't seem to be
Handel's Giulio Cesare; perhaps John Adams'?
I would be tempted by this, but I already have the Glyndbourne production, to which I am devoted. As I have so many basic areas of the repertoire to fill, I am not duplicating DVD operas for the moment.
In Handel's time the look would have been decidedly mixed, in that the costumes would be contemporary with a toga thrown over the jacket, or a breastplate and helmet utterly at odds with the rest of the costume. We need to keep reinventing our approach otherwise the art-form becomes set in aspic and looses some of its relevence to us. But this is a debate we have thrashed out before.
It is a very odd assertion that Handel compromised his work by writing for the voices he had in mind and which we cannot emulate today. That prejudice is a personal and perhaps a modern one. Handel was a brilliant man of the theatre and he knew just what he was doing. If his taste ran towards confusing the gender roles or giving genders unexpected soundworlds, it is something to puzzle through, an enrichment rather than an aberration.
Mike
Quote from: knight on August 27, 2007, 01:11:14 AM
If his taste ran towards confusing the gender roles or giving genders unexpected soundworlds, it is something to puzzle through, an enrichment rather than an aberration.
I think you are giving Handel too much credit. He may have been a genius, but he had no scruples sacrificing his artistry for profit, and didn't mind submitting to the questionable tastes of his day (from what i gathered it seems the use of
castrati supplanted traditional male voices starting from 1680, so it's not like it's always been there). There's no wonder Bach gave the entire genre a miss (despise his relentless determination in mastering every form known to him, including secular ones), he was probably appalled by it.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 27, 2007, 10:18:23 AM
but he had no scruples sacrificing his artistry for profit, and didn't mind submitting to the questionable tastes of his day
I know you are ref. to Handel, but since you are interested in a DVD of this certain opera your quote could be applied to the stage director, who also didn't mind submitting to the tastes of his day: The present! No castrati and Cesare in a contemporary street suit. Would you buy this DVD?
I give too much credit to Handel? Of course he had an eye to the business side of things, that does not mean he was prepared to take on practices that he did not think he could make work artistically. The music has lasted and is now being properly explored. It seems to be your own misgivings, not much shared here abouts, that give you the problem, it does not seem to be a problem to most of the rest of us.
Mike
All this would be a moot point if we get some volunteers to be the new wave of 21st century castrati. New recordings of old operas would result. Everyone would be happy. Right?
You'd be the first in line of volunteers? >:D 0:)
I'd volunteer
To quit my spheres
instead of you in a minute or two....
but I'm going to be somewhere else that day.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 27, 2007, 11:39:16 AM
All this would be a moot point if we get some volunteers to be the new wave of 21st century castrati. New recordings of old operas would result. Everyone would be happy. Right?
Well,
almost everybody.
Mike
Well the almost-everybodies would become operatic superstars for 18th century repertoire.
Quote from: JoshLilly on August 27, 2007, 01:13:33 PM
Well the almost-everybodies would become operatic superstars for 18th century repertoire.
Sometimes the price of fame is just too much!
I know Anne, that is why I decided on remaining in my obscurity.
Mike
Quote from: Wendell_E on August 25, 2007, 02:59:27 AMI think one of the great things about recordings is that looks aren't really a consideration. Imagine they look however you like (also works with Pavarotti recordings). On the Glydebourne DVD, I find Sarah Connolly and Andrea Kirchschlager make fairly convincing males.
I have to agree here, the acting and costumes in the Glyndebourne set are just about as perfect as you can get. But I do not have any issue with trouser roles, so I am biased in the other direction. ;)
Quote from: knight on August 27, 2007, 02:15:18 PM
I know Anne, that is why I decided on remaining in my obscurity.
Mike
LOL!
Quote from: uffeviking on August 27, 2007, 10:34:08 AM
I know you are ref. to Handel, but since you are interested in a DVD of this certain opera your quote could be applied to the stage director, who also didn't mind submitting to the tastes of his day: The present! No castrati and Cesare in a contemporary street suit. Would you buy this DVD?
No bloody way.
Quote from: knight on August 27, 2007, 10:46:08 AM
Of course he had an eye to the business side of things, that does not mean he was prepared to take on practices that he did not think he could make work artistically.
Then why are many of his works so... inconsistent? His music is simply too variable to accept the idea he always tried to keep his
artistic integrity. It seems to me he never really cared much either way, when genius flowed it was in
spite of himself and he had no real control over his inspiration.
Quote from: knight on August 27, 2007, 10:46:08 AM
it does not seem to be a problem to most of the rest of us.
That's what troubles me. I mean, we have people here who would have us believe Mozart's early symphonies are great as his late ones, or that Telemann was a genius. I don't trust them anymore. :P
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 27, 2007, 05:32:06 PM
I mean, we have people here who would have us to believe Mozart's early symphonies are great as his late ones, or that Telemann was a genius. I don't trust them anymore. :P
Wise.....don't go into any dark lanes with these people either.
Mike
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 27, 2007, 05:32:06 PM
Then why are many of his works so... inconsistent? His music is simply too variable to accept the idea he always tried to keep his
artistic integrity. It seems to me he never really cared much either way, when genius flowed it was in spite of himself and he had no real control over his inspiration.
I couldn't disagree more.
Many of his works are inconsistent? I have in my collection 25 of Handel's operas, about 15 of his oratorios and many other works. I got totally another impression of his abilities. While I cannot say that all of these works are masterpieces (but IMO not all of Bach's 200 cantatas are masterpieces...), many of them are: Giulio Cesare, Rodelinda, Tamerlano, Alcina, Aroidante, Serse, Semele, Saul, Hercules, Theodora, to name just a few. And these great works are enough to secure his position as the greatest opera composer of the late baroque. I have no doubts about his genius. And his dramatic senses are unique.
I was never bothered at all with the fact that women are singing in male roles. I concentrate in the music. Handel did not invented Opera Seria or the operatic conventions of his period. Many of the Dacapo arias are highly decorated and they are sung more effectively and brilliantly by high voices than by baritones and basses. Other composers were using these conventions before Handel or during his lifetime (Vivaldi), but with less brilliance and imagination. Handel brought the opera seria idiom to its apex. By the use of his great genius and dramatic sense he was able to enrich the old and rigid patterns with brilliant music that has a very wide spectrum of expression for human feelings.
Lis, I will definitely purchase the new Giulio Cesare DVD with Scholl... :)
Quote from: T-C on August 28, 2007, 12:08:25 AM
Other composers were using these conventions before Handel or during his lifetime (Vivaldi), but with less brilliance and imagination. Handel brought the opera seria idiom to its apex.
Probably much truth in this. However, I have just been given Philippe Jaroussky's CD of 15 arias of "Vivalidi's Heroes" from the operas and have been quite bowled over by the music (as well as the incredible singing). I have long loved Handel's operas, but never really connected opera with "the four seasons man".
Quote from: Harry Collier on August 28, 2007, 12:59:05 AM
I have long loved Handel's operas, but never really connected opera with "the four seasons man".
These days, there is a huge renaissance and interest in Vivaldi operatic output and new recordings of Vivaldi operas are released quite frequently. I have a few. Vivaldi operas have usually very long secco recitatives and most of the arias are fast and extremely brilliant technically with very difficult coloratura passages, but sometimes lack (IMO) in depth of expression.
In Handel's operas the recitatives are relatively short and the arias convey a larger scope of expression and moods. Around half of the arias and duets in Handel dramatic works are slow with the 'heavenly' quality, which make Handel's music so irresistible for me. But of course, Vivaldi's operas are loaded with wonderful musical pieces too. Fabio Biondi's recording of
Bajazet (Virgin Classics) is a very good example. A beautiful opera in a stunning performance.
Quote from: T-C on August 28, 2007, 12:08:25 AM
Lis, I will definitely purchase the new Giulio Cesare DVD with Scholl... :)
One of my reasons for buying this performance is the fact, everyone of the usually deleted 'repeats' are there. If Handel thought it necessary to repeat certain sections, who are the director or conductor to decide it's 'surplus'. After all, we are dealing with a Handel opera not an issue of Reader's Digest! :)
Is there a Reader's Digest version of Siegfried please?
Mike
Quote from: uffeviking on August 29, 2007, 06:40:31 AM
One of my reasons for buying this performance is the fact, everyone of the usually deleted 'repeats' are there. If Handel thought it necessary to repeat certain sections, who are the director or conductor to decide it's 'surplus'. After all, we are dealing with a Handel opera not an issue of Reader's Digest! :)
True, but remember that conditions in Handel's day were very different. Audiences did not sit reverentially and quietly throughout the whole opera. Going to the opera was as much a social event as a cultural one, and many audience members would come in and out during the course of the opera. One the reasons why Handel, and the composers of his day, thought it necessary to repeat certain sections was to make sure people didn't miss too much.
Quote from: uffeviking on August 29, 2007, 06:40:31 AM
One of my reasons for buying this performance is the fact, everyone of the usually deleted 'repeats' are there. If Handel thought it necessary to repeat certain sections, who are the director or conductor to decide it's 'surplus'. After all, we are dealing with a Handel opera not an issue of Reader's Digest!
Don't forget that in Handel's time he would assume that his audience -- there to talk, be entertained and to socialise, for the most part -- would only hear the work once in their entire lives. Repeating good bits would therefore be a way of driving home a given melody. Repeats in Handel are often there for practical rather than structural reasons. (I am certainly not overlooking the fact that repeats can also frequently be there for structural reasons, in much music).
Fast-forward to 2007 and to a world of CDs and DVDs, some of the urgency is taken out of the practical need to repeat material. So I think that repeats in Handel should only be made where they are necessary and make sense.
Quote from: Josquin des Prez on August 27, 2007, 10:18:23 AM
I think you are giving Handel too much credit. He may have been a genius, but he had no scruples sacrificing his artistry for profit, and didn't mind submitting to the questionable tastes of his day (from what i gathered it seems the use of castrati supplanted traditional male voices starting from 1680, so it's not like it's always been there). There's no wonder Bach gave the entire genre a miss (despise his relentless determination in mastering every form known to him, including secular ones), he was probably appalled by it.
Bach?
O yes, that fellow who composed church music only for boys and men? You mean, that fellow who wrote the alto aria (with choir) "Ach, nun ist mein Jesus hin?" for a boy or male alto and lets the choir ask (according to the bible word): "wo ist denn dein Freund hingegangen, o du schönste unter den
Weibern?" And was the part of Mary Magdalene in the Oster Oratorio sung by a woman? Think not, the Lutherian church would never have allowed that, and Bach would have lost his job. Yes, Bach
may have been a genius, but he had no scruples sacrificing his artistry for profit, and didn't mind submitting to the questionable church-related
tastes of his day.