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This poll has been done several times, but both of those polls (or, at least, one of them is closed), so why not start another one? Have fun!

I'll vote a bit later and give my explanation along with the vote.

I voted for Schoenberg for the simple fact that I respond the most to his music and I feel, unlike Berg and Webern, that his oeuvre offers the widest range of expression and his oeuvre is more diverse. From lush Late-Romanticism to the Expressionism of 'Free Atonal' to the spontaneity of 12-tone (and everything in-between), his music covers so many bases and he's remarkably consistent in everything he wrote. Wagner said "Bruckner? He's my man!", well, I feel this way about Arnie.

Webern I just can't get into.  Schonberg I often find too cold and often using a musical language I don't relate to.   Berg wrote some music that actively connects with me, and the rest of his music I have heard may not thrill me, but it doesn't turn me off in the way that much of Schonberg does.

I like the Gurru-Leider or at least the opening of it and the powerful 'A Survivor from Warsaw' but that's about it.

I voted Berg, but it's a very hard choice, since I love all 3 of these guys. I do feel there's a certain sterility or over-intellectualized quality to some of the later music of the other 2 composers. I never get this feeling with Berg.

Schoenberg gets my vote but god I do love Berg's Three Pieces and Violin Concerto...and Wozzeck...and the op.1 Sonata...and the 7 Early Songs...

Sarge

Love all three, but with Lulu and Wozzeck, Berg wins by a hair.

--Bruce

I appears that I am the sole vote for Webern.  Come on, folks - where are all the Webern fans?

8)

I adore Webern. First time hearing Six Pieces for Orchestra changed my life. (Just adore Berg ever-so-slightly more. ;D )

--Bruce

Today, I voted for Schoenberg...if asked again tomorrow, I don't know  ;)

I do like them all, but the nod has to go to Schoenberg.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2020, 09:00:20 AM
Schoenberg gets my vote but god I do love Berg's Three Pieces and Violin Concerto...and Wozzeck...and the op.1 Sonata...and the 7 Early Songs...

Sarge

You and I are in the same boat, Sarge. Berg's music has had a quite the emotional hold on me for years. A brilliant composer.

Quote from: San Antone on February 11, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
I appears that I am the sole vote for Webern.  Come on, folks - where are all the Webern fans?

8)

I'm a fan of Webern, but his music doesn't touch me quite as deeply as Schoenberg or Berg, however, there's no denying the ingenuity of Webern's music.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 11, 2020, 09:33:57 AM
I do like them all, but the nod has to go to Schoenberg.

Team Arnie for the win! :D

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 11, 2020, 09:33:57 AM
I do like them all, but the nod has to go to Schoenberg.

I think I'll have to agree on that.

G'day, all

I yet have to hear something by Webern that makes a ripple in my mind. I have no idea why, but I don't connect with his language at all. My preference goes for Berg, by a good margin because his music is so emotional. Schoenberg is a bit like Stravinsky: there's early, middle and late Schoenberg - huge differences, more so than with any other composer IMO - and I find it hard to embrace it all at once.

I rank them according to the amount of works I enjoy of. Webern is my least favorite as well. Nevertheless, some of his early works do appeal to me, especially Passacaglia for orchestra and Im Sommerwind. I find his other music extremely cerebral and cold whose purpose seems merely intellectual rather than giving pleasure or entertaining the listener. Then Berg would come with works like Three Pieces for Orchestra, Lyric Suite for string quartet, Violin Concerto and Chamber Concerto. Schonberg has more works that appeal to me, so he would be my 'favorite'. Gurrelieder, String Quartet in D major, String Quartet No. 1, Verklärte Nacht, Concerto for String Quartet after Händel, Cello Concerto after Monn, the Chamber Symphonies and Five Pieces for orchestra Op. 16 are of my interest. His other stuff does nothing for me.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 11, 2020, 01:44:15 PM
I rank them according to the amount of works I enjoy of. Webern is my least favorite as well. Nevertheless, some of his early works do appeal to me, especially Passacaglia for orchestra and Im Sommerwind. I find his other music extremely cerebral and cold whose purpose seems merely intellectual rather than giving pleasure or entertaining the listener. Then Berg would come with works like Three Pieces for Orchestra, Lyric Suite for string quartet, Violin Concerto and Chamber Concerto. Schonberg has more works that appeal to me, so he would be my 'favorite'. Gurrelieder, String Quartet in D major, String Quartet No. 1, Verklärte Nacht, Concerto for String Quartet after Händel, Cello Concerto after Monn, the Chamber Symphonies and Five Pieces for orchestra Op. 16 are of my interest. His other stuff does nothing for me.

The orchestration of the Brahms piano quartet no 1 is probably my favourite work by Schoenberg  ;D. Lest that be construed as dismissive, it is not the case. I find it an absolute masterpiece in this orchestration. Then there's Verklärte Nacht, Pelleas und Melisande, the violin concerto, the Phantasy op 47, A Survivor from Warsaw, the Variations op 31...

Berg wrote less, but some of his works mean more to me than most by Schoenberg, in particular the Violin concerto and the Chamber concerto, the Altenberg lieder and the piano sonata.

Quote from: André on February 11, 2020, 04:25:02 PM
The orchestration of the Brahms piano quartet no 1 is probably my favourite work by Schoenberg  ;D. Lest that be construed as dismissive, it is not the case. I find it an absolute masterpiece in this orchestration. Then there's Verklärte Nacht, Pelleas und Melisande, the violin concerto, the Phantasy op 47, A Survivor from Warsaw, the Variations op 31...

Berg wrote less, but some of his works mean more to me than most by Schoenberg, in particular the Violin concerto and the Chamber concerto, the Altenberg lieder and the piano sonata.

Ah yes, I had forgotten about the orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet No. 1 (I'm not exactly sure how I forgot it). Anyway, it's completely zany! I love how crazy the orchestration gets as the work progresses. Sometimes I forget just what an unbelievable orchestrator he was.

Rattle talks about it in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/qpv-erC-Ks4

Quote from: André on February 11, 2020, 04:25:02 PM
The orchestration of the Brahms piano quartet no 1 is probably my favourite work by Schoenberg  ;D. Lest that be construed as dismissive, it is not the case. I find it an absolute masterpiece in this orchestration. Then there's Verklärte Nacht, Pelleas und Melisande, the violin concerto, the Phantasy op 47, A Survivor from Warsaw, the Variations op 31...

That orchestration of Brahms's Piano Quartet No. 1 is certainly impressive. However, I feel the orchestration in some parts is a little 'capricious' in the 4th movement, losing the focus of what the original work pretends to convey. It's just what I detect, hence I didn't include it among my favorites by Schonberg.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 11, 2020, 08:19:13 PM
That orchestration of Brahms's Piano Quartet No. 1 is certainly impressive. However, I feel the orchestration in some parts is a little 'capricious' in the 4th movement, losing the focus of what the original work pretends to convey. It's just what I detect, hence I didn't include it among my favorites by Schonberg.

And that's what I love about it. Schoenberg demonstrating what a genius he is and he let's it all hang out in that movement. Love it!

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 11, 2020, 08:25:56 PM
And that's what I love about it. Schoenberg demonstrating what a genius he is and he let's all it all hang out in that movement. Love it!

+1.

A downscale transcription (like the Haydn symphonies or Mozart concertos for piano quartet) aims at increasing the work's exposure. An upscale one (like that Brahms/Schoenberg quartet) has an aesthetic, not practical purpose. The full resources of the orchestra obviously give access to a whole new point of view.

We have really been working the "music as servant" idea here pretty hard. You know, the idea that music exists to please me. If it doesn't please me, it's no good; if it does, it's great.

Of course, the idea is rarely if ever stated so baldly, but that's what it comes down to.

And, also of course, the "me" in that formula always presents the truth about music even though there are always other "me's" that disagree. And no, I do not consider lip service that pretends to acknowledge other viewpoints at all ameliorative.

Here's an example of one of the worst expressions of "music is my servant" I've seen--and as someone who has been hanging out with musicians and music fans for around sixty years now, I have seen some pretty bad ones.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on February 11, 2020, 01:44:15 PM
Webern is my least favorite.... Nevertheless, some of his early works do appeal to me, especially Passacaglia for orchestra and Im Sommerwind. I find his other music extremely cerebral and cold whose purpose seems merely intellectual rather than giving pleasure or entertaining the listener.

Note how--and this is universal (that is, not confined to Symphonic Addict in any way)--the me in this instance turns into "the listener," as if all listeners were the same (hint, they are not) and as if all listeners were exactly like the "I" of this statement.

I also cringe at the ideas that cerebral goes well with cold and that intellectual things are neither pleasurable nor entertaining.

Two things occur to me, things that might appear to the unwary to be contradictory, though I don't think they really are:

1) It's not all about you, and

2) if you spend more time listening, carefully and sympathetically, you will find that more and more different things will pleas and entertain you.

All three people mentioned in this hapless thread are capable of pleasing some listeners. And some other listeners may find that any of them at any time are not pleasing at all. Is any of this about those three? No. It's all about the listeners.

What fun it would be to be able to talk about Schoenberg and Berg and Webern rather than simply about ourselves.

If you, some guy, like to be transcendent with your super explanation, that's your issue. I take things more relaxingly. 'Me' doesn't like most of Webern's music. There is much more interesting music to 'me' out there. For 'me' that is a fact.

Most or all of your posts are too pedantic as far as I can see.

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 11:38:52 AM
We have really been working the "music as servant" idea here pretty hard. You know, the idea that music exists to please me. If it doesn't please me, it's no good; if it does, it's great.

Of course, the idea is rarely if ever stated so baldly, but that's what it comes down to.

And, also of course, the "me" in that formula always presents the truth about music even though there are always other "me's" that disagree. And no, I do not consider lip service that pretends to acknowledge other viewpoints at all ameliorative.

Here's an example of one of the worst expressions of "music is my servant" I've seen--and as someone who has been hanging out with musicians and music fans for around sixty years now, I have seen some pretty bad ones.
Note how--and this is universal (that is, not confined to Symphonic Addict in any way)--the me in this instance turns into "the listener," as if all listeners were the same (hint, they are not) and as if all listeners were exactly like the "I" of this statement.

I also cringe at the ideas that cerebral goes well with cold and that intellectual things are neither pleasurable nor entertaining.

Two things occur to me, things that might appear to the unwary to be contradictory, though I don't think they really are:

1) It's not all about you, and

2) if you spend more time listening, carefully and sympathetically, you will find that more and more different things will pleas and entertain you.

All three people mentioned in this hapless thread are capable of pleasing some listeners. And some other listeners may find that any of them at any time are not pleasing at all. Is any of this about those three? No. It's all about the listeners.

What fun it would be to be able to talk about Schoenberg and Berg and Webern rather than simply about ourselves.

We can always count on you to be --- or play --- the smartest ass in town, ain't it?

Let me infuriate you much more than Symphonic Addict did: none of the three guys is my cup of tea; nothing I've heard from any of them made me want to go further (if forced at the point of a gun, I'd choose Berg for the VC, the piano sonata and the Lyric suite, which are far above anything I've heard from the other two, yet far below anything from my favorite composers). And btw: I won't waste my precious time on listening again to music that didn't please me at first hearing. What I positively like is enough to warrant me a lifetime of enjoyment.

(I apologize, John, I'd have never posted in this thread were it not for some guy's supercilious smugness which really gets on my nerves big time. --- but at least I voted for Berg)

Quote from: Florestan on February 12, 2020, 12:00:32 PM
--- but at least I voted for Berg)

But, you cannot have meant it  0:)

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 11:38:52 AM
We have really been working the "music as servant" idea here pretty hard. You know, the idea that music exists to please me. If it doesn't please me, it's no good; if it does, it's great.

Of course, the idea is rarely if ever stated so baldly, but that's what it comes down to.

And, also of course, the "me" in that formula always presents the truth about music even though there are always other "me's" that disagree. And no, I do not consider lip service that pretends to acknowledge other viewpoints at all ameliorative.

Here's an example of one of the worst expressions of "music is my servant" I've seen--and as someone who has been hanging out with musicians and music fans for around sixty years now, I have seen some pretty bad ones.
Note how--and this is universal (that is, not confined to Symphonic Addict in any way)--the me in this instance turns into "the listener," as if all listeners were the same (hint, they are not) and as if all listeners were exactly like the "I" of this statement.

I also cringe at the ideas that cerebral goes well with cold and that intellectual things are neither pleasurable nor entertaining.

Two things occur to me, things that might appear to the unwary to be contradictory, though I don't think they really are:

1) It's not all about you, and

2) if you spend more time listening, carefully and sympathetically, you will find that more and more different things will pleas and entertain you.

All three people mentioned in this hapless thread are capable of pleasing some listeners. And some other listeners may find that any of them at any time are not pleasing at all. Is any of this about those three? No. It's all about the listeners.

What fun it would be to be able to talk about Schoenberg and Berg and Webern rather than simply about ourselves.

Well, thanks for stopping by. ::)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 12, 2020, 01:13:47 PM
But, you cannot have meant it  0:)

Oh, yes, I meant it. I don't care for the 2nd Viennese School at all, but if need be, then give me Berg.

Quote from: Florestan on February 12, 2020, 01:21:04 PM
Oh, yes, I meant it. I don't care for the 2nd Viennese School at all, but if need be, then give me Berg.

That's what I meant: that your vote for Berg was a bit like my friend Blake's vote for Trump: devoid of any hope.  >:D

To be sure, Andrei, I know you are entirely sincere in your distaste for the 2VSch

I admire Berg, and his music has grown on me over the years, but Schoenberg's nervy music has always been very simpatico.  Webern's pieces are always over before I have a chance to warm up.  I suppose I can always put them on repeat until they sound like Morton Feldman. 

Sorry guys, your dislike of any or all of the Second Viennese School has no effect on me at all. Why should it? We all like and dislike all sorts of things. Several of my closest musical friends detest Bruckner, who's one of my favorites.

I don't particularly like Chopin or Wagner, but I don't confuse my dislike of those two with anything like a criticism of their music.

Florestan continues to be pissed off not at me, not really, nor at any of my opinions about music, but at a simulacrum of my own sweet self that he's constructed out of whole cloth. That's annoying, but only slightly. (It was WAY more annoying when an ex-girlfriend started doing that, haha.)

But ad hominem IS good fun, and there are several posters who will predictably weigh in with an ad hom or three whenever I post.

I'd do thread duty now, just because I admire and respect Mr. Blanston, whose tastes I hasten to point out, are vastly different from mine, but I like all three, Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern. They're all different, and I admire all of them.

Quote from: Daverz on February 12, 2020, 02:16:51 PM
I admire Berg, and his music has grown on me over the years, but Schoenberg's nervy music has always been very simpatico.  Webern's pieces are always over before I have a chance to warm up.  I suppose I can always put them on repeat until they sound like Morton Feldman.

:laugh:

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Sorry guys, your dislike of any or all of the Second Viennese School has no effect on me at all. Why should it? We all like and dislike all sorts of things.

Right on, brutha!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 12, 2020, 01:58:39 PM
That's what I meant: that your vote for Berg was a bit like my friend Blake's vote for Trump: devoid of any hope.  >:D

:D

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 12, 2020, 01:59:54 PM
To be sure, Andrei, I know you are entirely sincere in your distaste for the 2VSch

One cannot like everything. My dislike of this music is not a value judgement, though.

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Florestan continues to be pissed off not at me, not really, nor at any of my opinions about music, but at a simulacrum of my own sweet self that he's constructed out of whole cloth. That's annoying, but only slightly. (It was WAY more annoying when an ex-girlfriend started doing that, haha.)

You might not even realize it but more often than not the tone of your posts, especially when you are in lecturing mode, is one of pedantic smugness, or smug pedantry if you prefer. You could really use a more relaxed and tolerant approach.

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Sorry guys, your dislike of any or all of the Second Viennese School has no effect on me at all.

And regarding your seething dislike of others' dislike of any or all of the Second Viennese School: likewise.

Some good adjectives mentioned so far that describe much of this music: cerebral (the bad kind), cold, sterile, over-intellectualized. Much of this comes down to an, as mentioned, unrelatable musical language; but also, I feel, to often not enough talent or musical substance to make this musical language work. Much of this music may look good on paper, however its failure to sound good, or as good as it looks on paper, and its subsequently natural effect of alienating and/or repelling the listener seems to eternally puzzle some people. No matter, they'll get it sooner or later. Or not.

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 11:38:52 AM
We have really been working the "music as servant" idea here pretty hard. You know, the idea that music exists to please me. [middle of rant snipped...]

What fun it would be to be able to talk about Schoenberg and Berg and Webern rather than simply about ourselves.

Quote from: some guy on February 12, 2020, 06:26:44 PM
Sorry guys, your dislike of any or all of the Second Viennese School has no effect on me at all.

:laugh:

Quite frankly, I don't care whether this or that person responds to music I enjoy (and yes, I do enjoy Schoenberg and Berg immensely). Too often people say that there's no music in these composer's music or that it doesn't make any sense or blah...blah...blah. The way I hear it is you don't have to be an intellectual to understand or appreciate this music. In fact, I think the more time you spend away from getting caught up in all the cerebral aspects of the music and focus on simply letting the music wash over you, then the better one will be for it. Deep analysis is fascinating and I wish I knew how to read music to the extent to where I could actually see what's happening on the paper, but letting my ears do the work is what I'm more interested in, because it enables you to pick out things that you didn't know existed. Repeated listening is what is, ultimately, required of this music. It's not easy if you're accustomed to tonal centers and traditional tonal resolutions. This is a different musical language and as with anything new, it deserves a more than fair trial for your ears instead of calling it 'garbage' from the initial listen. I've made this mistake with some music and ended up coming back to it with an appreciation I didn't previously have, and, sometimes, this appreciation develops into love or passion for the music.

Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on February 13, 2020, 06:50:36 AM
:laugh:

The irony, indeed  ;).

The subjective perception of beauty or value in art is worthy of some discussion, though. There's a saying that goes « beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder ». A work of art has zero intrinsic value if it stands in isolation, away from the appreciation of the human brain. It's only through that filter that it becomes more than an inert object. And since all human beings are different, the appreciation is bound to vary from one individual to another. So, yes: it's all about ourselves, isn't it?

Quote from: André on February 13, 2020, 07:06:01 AM
The irony, indeed  ;).

The subjective perception of beauty or value in art is worthy of some discussion, though. There's a saying that goes « beauty is in the eyes (or ears) of the beholder ». A work of art has zero intrinsic value if it stands in isolation, away from the appreciation of the human brain. It's only through that filter that it becomes more than an inert object. And since all human beings are different, the appreciation is bound to vary from one individual to another. So, yes: it's all about ourselves, isn't it?

Great post. Of course it's all about ourselves. The notion that one can appreciate a piece of music in abstracto, divorced from any personal involvement, is absurd.

And: nobody is under any obligation whatever to like, or even to try liking, everything. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discovering one's comfort zone and gravitating towards it most of the time. Life's too short to waste one's time on things that one doesn't enjoy in the hope that someday one will eventually enjoy them. There's also nothing wrong with doing exacctly that, either. There's no universal approach to music, each of us takes the one that is most suitable to their tastes and aesthetic preferences. The big rpoblem appears when one tries to impose his approach on anybody else.

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2020, 07:10:53 AM
Great post. Of course it's all about ourselves. The notion that one can appreciate a piece of music in abstracto, divorced from any personal involvement, is absurd.

And: nobody is under any obligation whatever to like, or even to try liking, everything. There's absolutely nothing wrong with discovering one's comfort zone and gravitating towards it most of the time. Life's too short to waste one's time on things that one doesn't enjoy in the hope that someday one will eventually enjoy them. There's also nothing wrong with doing exacctly that, either. There's no universal approach to music, each of us takes the one that is most suitable to their tastes and aesthetic preferences. The big rpoblem appears when one tries to impose his approach on anybody else.

It's true that you're under no obligation to like everything, but I do think if one is passionate about say '20th Century music', then one should, at the very least, try some music from the Second Viennese School. Sometimes if we don't try to understand something, then we're missing out on music that could possibly mean a lot to us because we didn't put away our expectations that this or that 'didn't work for us'. Life is, indeed, short, but I think if one is passionate enough and musically curious at all, then these composers could have a positive instead of a negative effect on the listener. I'm passionate about music from the 20th Century, so I knew that, at some point, I was going to have face one of these composers, especially given that they're giants of this particular period (and that's not really up for debate --- it's a well-known and established fact at this juncture in music history). Listen to what you want, when you want, but if you don't at least try to appreciate music that doesn't sit well with you on initial hearing (or even multiple hearings), then perhaps an adjustment on the part of the listener is in order. It's not a one-way street after all, there are multiple avenues in understanding a composer that we find 'difficult' or simply 'unaccessible'. Of course, something could not be for you and, yes, there's no harm in admitting it as long as you, again, tried to enjoy it.

Talk about an impossible choice! Well, between Webern and Schoenberg at least. I don't dislike Berg, but I can only really point to Sieben frühe Lieder, Lyric Suite, the Piano Sonata and the Violin Concerto as having any real significance for me. The operas I don't get, but opera in general isn't my thing, especially not now that I don't really have the time to commit to it.

Quote from: Florestan on February 12, 2020, 11:42:04 PM
:D

One cannot like everything. My dislike of this music is not a value judgement, though.

Very true.

Quote from: Crudblud on February 13, 2020, 08:02:24 AM
Talk about an impossible choice! Well, between Webern and Schoenberg at least. I don't dislike Berg, but I can only really point to Sieben frühe Lieder, Lyric Suite, the Piano Sonata and the Violin Concerto as having any real significance for me. The operas I don't get, but opera in general isn't my thing, especially not now that I don't really have the time to commit to it.

Great to see you, Dan!

Quote from: Wanderer on February 13, 2020, 03:35:50 AM
Some good adjectives mentioned so far that describe much of this music: cerebral (the bad kind), cold, sterile, over-intellectualized. Much of this comes down to an, as mentioned, unrelatable musical language; but also, I feel, to often not enough talent or musical substance to make this musical language work. Much of this music may look good on paper, however its failure to sound good, or as good as it looks on paper, and its subsequently natural effect of alienating and/or repelling the listener seems to eternally puzzle some people. No matter, they'll get it sooner or later. Or not.

My dear Tasos, I know you will take my respectful opposition in good heart. While there is some truth underneath your remarks, both "unrelatable musical language" and its "natural repellant effect" are too absolute. Too many listeners enjoy the music on even an untutored hearing, for us to ascribe natural repellancy to it. Some find the language an obstacle, others do not.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2020, 08:08:32 AM
Great to see you, Dan!

Hey there, Karl! I'll be posting here more regularly now, hopefully.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 13, 2020, 03:35:50 AM
Some good adjectives mentioned so far that describe much of this music: cerebral (the bad kind), cold, sterile, over-intellectualized. Much of this comes down to an, as mentioned, unrelatable musical language; but also, I feel, to often not enough talent or musical substance to make this musical language work. Much of this music may look good on paper, however its failure to sound good

I think this is largely disproven by the relatively early works of these composers. Verklärte Nacht, Gurrelieder, the first string quartet etc. show that Schoenberg DID have the choice to become "another Strauss" or "another Reger" but was driven to do something else, more original and in effect less popular. (And one should note that among the conservatives of 1900 like Max Bruch, Strauss and Reger were "musical social democracy" which was meant as an insult.) Same goes for Webern with "Im Sommerwind" or the early slow movement for string quartet or Bergs piano sonata and early Lieder although many listeners find also later Berg sensually and emotionally very appealing and not predominantly cerebral.

So feel free to dislike their later music as too cerebral or experimental or whatever but I think that their capabilities in a somewhat more traditional style are clearly documented by their earlier pieces.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 13, 2020, 08:23:28 AM

My dear Tasos, I know you will take my respectful opposition in good heart. While there is some truth underneath your remarks, both "unrelatable musical language" and its "natural repellant effect" are too absolute. Too many listeners enjoy the music on even an untutored hearing, for us to ascribe natural repellancy to it. Some find the language an obstacle, others do not.

We do not disagree, my friend, and I am not absolute in my comments, hence the several qualifiers in my post. The language in itself is not repellent (in lesser hands it can feel unrelatable, which is a different thing), but many works unfortunately are, since the talent or inspiration needed to elevate them or make them work is not always there. I like many works by Schoenberg and Berg and I do not ascribe them in this category. And I also find that Skalkottas, for instance, has truly managed to make the language sing with humanity, inventiveness and brilliance.

Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2020, 11:46:46 PM
I think this is largely disproven by the relatively early works of these composers. Verklärte Nacht, Gurrelieder, the first string quartet etc. show that Schoenberg DID have the choice to become "another Strauss" or "another Reger" but was driven to do something else, more original and in effect less popular. (And one should note that among the conservatives of 1900 like Max Bruch, Strauss and Reger were "musical social democracy" which was meant as an insult.) Same goes for Webern with "Im Sommerwind" or the early slow movement for string quartet or Bergs piano sonata and early Lieder...

My post is not referring to Schoenberg, Berg and Webern specifically, but to all composers writing in the idiom. That said, works like Webern's Im Sommerwind or Berg's piano sonata do not reveal any extraordinary amount of talent, either. But Gurre-Lieder is a great favourite.

And "another Reger"? We hardly needed the first one.  0:)

Although I affirm my vote for Schoenberg, there's no denying that, of late, Berg has given me a run for my money, albeit money spent some time ago ....

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 16, 2020, 03:17:25 PM
Although I affirm my vote for Schoenberg, there's no denying that, of late, Berg has given me a run for my money, albeit money spent some time ago ....

Indeed. And only if he had lived longer. There's no telling what richness would have poured forth from him.

Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2020, 11:46:46 PM
I think this is largely disproven by the relatively early works of these composers. Verklärte Nacht, Gurrelieder, the first string quartet etc. show that Schoenberg DID have the choice to become "another Strauss" or "another Reger" but was driven to do something else, more original and in effect less popular. (And one should note that among the conservatives of 1900 like Max Bruch, Strauss and Reger were "musical social democracy" which was meant as an insult.) Same goes for Webern with "Im Sommerwind" or the early slow movement for string quartet or Bergs piano sonata and early Lieder although many listeners find also later Berg sensually and emotionally very appealing and not predominantly cerebral.

So feel free to dislike their later music as too cerebral or experimental or whatever but I think that their capabilities in a somewhat more traditional style are clearly documented by their earlier pieces.

Schoenberg demonstrated a mastery in the Late-Romantic idiom. For any listener to dispute this, shows an unwillingness to accept what is clearly a misjudgment and lack of understanding on their part. How could anyone listen to Pelleas und Melisande, for example, and say, "That's nice enough, but not very substantial or even important." For this listener, ALL periods of Schoenberg are substantial and important and while I do understand that he's not everyone's cup of tea, I think for anyone to not look at his achievements objectively and make claims that couldn't be any further the truth is what I find particularly disappointing.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 14, 2020, 04:54:52 AM
We do not disagree, my friend, and I am not absolute in my comments, hence the several qualifiers in my post. The language in itself is not repellent (in lesser hands it can feel unrelatable, which is a different thing), but many works unfortunately are, since the talent or inspiration needed to elevate them or make them work is not always there. I like many works by Schoenberg and Berg and I do not ascribe them in this category. And I also find that Skalkottas, for instance, has truly managed to make the language sing with humanity, inventiveness and brilliance.

That's interesting as I find Skalkottas to be one of the least interesting composers to come out of this school. I think Dallapiccola is one of the most successful composers outside the Viennese triumvirate.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 09:26:25 AM
That's interesting as I find Skalkottas to be one of the least interesting composers to come out of this school.

You have a certain notoriety for - let's not say flimsy, let's say - rather transient pronouncements. Give it some time and you may feel differently in the future. Skalkottas' music is certainly of extraordinary quality.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 03:56:44 PM
You have a certain notoriety for - let's not say flimsy, let's say - rather transient pronouncements. Give it some time and you may feel differently in the future. Skalkottas' music is certainly of extraordinary quality.

And late Schoenberg is of extraordinary quality --- give it some time and you may feel differently in future. :)

Quote from: vandermolen on February 11, 2020, 08:24:53 AM
I like the Gurru-Leider or at least the opening of it and the powerful 'A Survivor from Warsaw' but that's about it.

I don't buy this.  You will love the entire Gurrelieder.  It is incredibly beautiful and has a magnificent finale ala Novak's Storm.  Please listen again.  Check out my favorite recording, Berlin RSO/Riccardo Chailly.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 04:11:11 PM
And late Schoenberg is of extraordinary quality...

I think so, as well. You need to read posts more carefully.
Interestingly, Skalkottas' three piano concerti were written before Schoenberg attempted his own, which makes their felicities even more extraordinary. Sometimes I like listening to all four in sequence. And for those interested, there's a very good new recording of Skalkottas' Piano Concerto No.3 (for piano and winds), played by Daan Vandewalle and Blattwerk, issued by the Paladino label.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 05:05:14 PM
I think so, as well. You need to read posts more carefully.
Interestingly, Skalkottas' three piano concerti were written before Schoenberg attempted his own, which make their felicities even more extraordinary. Sometimes I like listening to all four in sequence. And for those interested, there's a very good new recording of Skalkottas' Piano Concerto No.3 (for piano and winds), played by Daan Vandewalle and Blattwerk, issued by the Paladino label.

Well, I've tried with Skalkottas, but have yet to connect with his music. Maybe one day, maybe not. Anyway, let's get back to the Second Viennese School.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 05:10:52 PM
Anyway, let's get back to the Second Viennese School.

We never left.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 05:12:58 PM
We never left.

Okay, well let's get back to Schoenberg, Berg, and Webern, which is why I created this poll.

Anyway...

Looks like right now Schoenberg is leading the pack by only one point, which isn't surprising given how Berg's music can certainly reel a listener into such a marvelous sonic web. I'm not too surprised by the Webern solitary vote right now given that his music, for me, isn't the most immediately attractive of the three composers.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 03:56:44 PM
You have a certain notoriety for - let's not say flimsy, let's say - rather transient pronouncements. Give it some time and you may feel differently in the future. Skalkottas' music is certainly of extraordinary quality.

It is, indeed.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 05:05:14 PM
I think so, as well. You need to read posts more carefully.
Interestingly, Skalkottas' three piano concerti were written before Schoenberg attempted his own, which makes their felicities even more extraordinary. Sometimes I like listening to all four in sequence. And for those interested, there's a very good new recording of Skalkottas' Piano Concerto No.3 (for piano and winds), played by Daan Vandewalle and Blattwerk, issued by the Paladino label.

Very nice!

Team Arnie is holding strong. Hopefully, the support will become overwhelming.

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 17, 2020, 05:41:11 PM
Team Arnie is holding strong. Hopefully, the support will become overwhelming.

You sound like someone we know whose avatar is Team Bernie... ;D

Feel the Schön!

Quote from: André on February 17, 2020, 06:25:18 PM
You sound like someone we know whose avatar is Team Bernie... ;D

Oh dear! Now, THAT is what I was afraid of --- you know, that kind of fanaticism. :P

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 17, 2020, 06:34:50 PM
Feel the Schön!

:laugh:

Quote from: San Antone on February 11, 2020, 09:19:40 AM
I appears that I am the sole vote for Webern.  Come on, folks - where are all the Webern fans?

8)

Right there with you, my friend. Webern is by far my favorite of the three, and one of my top 10 composers of all time. From my very first exposure to his music, I knew I had discovered something special, and to this day every time I hear one of his vast, yet infinitesimal, microcosmic works, I hear something new. I love Schoenberg, and I love Berg, but Webern is the one who speaks to me. Sadly, we are still the only two votes. I find it surprising that no one else has had a similar reaction to his music, but then again, I've always been a weirdo.  8)

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 05, 2020, 03:44:00 PM
Right there with you, my friend. Webern is by far my favorite of the three, and one of my top 10 composers of all time. From my very first exposure to his music, I knew I had discovered something special, and to this day every time I hear one of his vast, yet infinitesimal, microcosmic works, I hear something new. I love Schoenberg, and I love Berg, but Webern is the one who speaks to me. Sadly, we are still the only two works. I find it surprising that no one else has had a similar reaction to his music, but then again, I've always been a weirdo.  8)

(https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/160/google/56/clapping-hands-sign_1f44f.png)

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 05, 2020, 03:44:00 PM
Right there with you, my friend. Webern is by far my favorite of the three, and one of my top 10 composers of all time. From my very first exposure to his music, I knew I had discovered something special, and to this day every time I hear one of his vast, yet infinitesimal, microcosmic works, I hear something new. I love Schoenberg, and I love Berg, but Webern is the one who speaks to me. Sadly, we are still the only two works. I find it surprising that no one else has had a similar reaction to his music, but then again, I've always been a weirdo.  8)

You're no weirder than I am and I don't find it strange that you connect more with Webern than Schoenberg or Webern. We all have composers that draw us in and others that don't do as much for us. I love Schoenberg and Berg, but Webern has always been a hard sale for me. I don't really connect a lot with the aesthetic, but there are works of his that I admire and think highly of, but Schoenberg and Berg get more rotation in my listening.

Webern brought something to music no one had ever exposed before.

I voted for Schönberg, he has become one of my absolute favourite composers since I started widening my knowledge (as at that time it wasn't particularly large) of his oeuvre months ago, it was an amazing discovery; for me his music seems to be really able to evoke, truly and fully, what is hidden into the inner being, bringing that out to light, with such a striking, overwhelming expressiveness that completely mesmerizes; I don't find Schönberg's music only powerfully emotional, but also profoundly introspective and thoughtful. I love Berg and I also appreciate Webern, but their compositions can't speak to me in the same magnetic, compelling way as Schönberg's do.

Quote from: Wanderer on February 17, 2020, 05:05:14 PMInterestingly, Skalkottas' three piano concerti were written before Schoenberg attempted his own, which makes their felicities even more extraordinary. Sometimes I like listening to all four in sequence. And for those interested, there's a very good new recording of Skalkottas' Piano Concerto No.3 (for piano and winds), played by Daan Vandewalle and Blattwerk, issued by the Paladino label.

Skalkottas could be a Fourth Choice!   ;D

My ship has struck the Schoenberg!   ;)

Even before Schoenberg crystalizes the "composition with 12 notes" method, he had produced some most extraordinary works in "free atonality", e.g. Jakobsleiter, Five Pieces for Orchestra, Pierrot Lunaire, Erwartung, etc.

I admire and respect them all, but for a favorite I would go with Berg for his intense romanticism combined with 20th century technique. Webern a close second for his delicate miniatures. Schoenberg I often admire more than I enjoy, but I most appreciate his freely atonal works rather than the 12-tone style, where I think he lost some degree of the rhythmic and melodic flexibility that distinguished such masterpieces as Erwartung, the Five Orchestral Pieces, and Pierrot.

And for performances - guys, pick up the newly released Robert Craft box on Sony, which has some of the best Schoenberg recordings ever made.

Still Webern for me!

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on June 05, 2023, 12:45:18 PMI admire and respect them all, but for a favorite I would go with Berg for his intense romanticism combined with 20th century technique. Webern a close second for his delicate miniatures. Schoenberg I often admire more than I enjoy, but I most appreciate his freely atonal works rather than the 12-tone style, where I think he lost some degree of the rhythmic and melodic flexibility that distinguished such masterpieces as Erwartung, the Five Orchestral Pieces, and Pierrot.

And for performances - guys, pick up the newly released Robert Craft box on Sony, which has some of the best Schoenberg recordings ever made.

I hope they release a cheap "white box" of his Schoenberg recordings as they've done for his Webern.

Quote from: vers la flamme on June 05, 2023, 01:33:14 PMI hope they release a cheap "white box" of his Schoenberg recordings as they've done for his Webern.

I hope so, it would be certainly stunning!

Schönberg and Berg are good composers but Webern is one of the best ever. He took the Schönbergian style further than Schönberg and found beautiful poetry in brevity.

I've come to love all three composers. Schoenberg for his varied oeuvre, which is a hotbed of incredible color and alluring harmonic invention. Berg for his post-Mahlerian Expressionist musical language, but also the eerie quasi-Impressionist color he's able to conjure up even in sparser instrument configurations. And, finally, Webern for his Pointillistic, crystalline music that never fails to leave me in wonderment.

Three incredible composers and @Wanderer I've come to like many of Skalkottas' works during my time away from the forum. I'd also add Gerhard, Dallapiccola and Krenek as followers of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern.

Not sure I should be voting on this poll. Verklaerte Nacht is my favourite Schoenberg by some distance - which probably gives you a hint that this isn't my kind of music. As for the atonal, Berg is my favourite my miles. The Lulu suite, Wozzeck and the violin concerto are wonderful. Webern I can't stand except for his orchestration of The Ricercar from the Musical Offering (the genius of the orchestration may be to demonstrate just how modern Bach is)