If you do in fact enjoy his music. My field is law, not music. And as I've said elsewhere, my knowledge of classical music is only rudimentary at best . .....but for several years I've wondered exactly what it is about Mahler's music that makes it attractive to so many. I've been on and off this forum since 2008 and never asked the question till now. Thanks in advance for any comments and insights.
Happy to weigh in (and hope my fanboy status doesn't make my comments suspect 8) ). The Second Symphony was my entry point. In college, heard it live and it was an overwhelming experience, partially because of all the musicians onstage (maybe 300 people, between orchestra and chorus).
A big part of the appeal is the enormous scale of (most of) his symphonies. They require an enormous orchestra, sometimes with chorus and/or vocal soloists, and are extremely difficult to perform. (Or were, since now many musicians can tackle things with more apparent ease than some of their predecessors.) So part of it is the "big orchestral showpiece" element. Mahler also deploys many unusual combinations of instruments, or uses them in different ways that challenge conventions. A favorite example is the third movement of the First Symphony, which begins with a solo on the double bass, but up high on the string, so the tone almost sounds more like a viola or a cello.
But all the technical stuff omits the emotional content, which is also front-and-center. Mahler tried to capture all of it—the whole range of human emotions—and in most cases, succeeded wildly.
--Bruce
I'm not a huge Mahlerian (definitely more of a Sibelian), but I think, at his best, he was able to tap into the human experience like no other. Sadness, grief, loss, joy, humor...there was a place for all of these emotions in Mahler's music. I still rate his 3rd symphony as one of the greatest I've ever heard and I also like the lieder (incl. the orchestral lieder) and Das Lied von der Erde, but that's about it. I find that more often than not, I'm just not in the mood for his music. The same could be said of Bruckner.
I also wonder which of his symphonies are most liked by his fans.
Quote from: Dave B on November 24, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
I also wonder which of his symphonies are most liked by his fans.
I would say all of them with the bold exception of the 8th, which seems to be the black sheep of his symphonic cycle and with good reason. I find some it decent, but much of leaves me cold.
Very interesting.Thank you.
Quote from: Dave B on November 24, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
I also wonder which of his symphonies are most liked by his fans.
My guess would be No. 2, which is also performed more often than the others (= more exposure). But many people like the Ninth, for its sublime farewell. And some of us do adore No. 8, though it is even rarer, because it requires the most personnel of all. (Its nickname is "Symphony of a Thousand," and at least one early performance actually had close to 1,000 musicians onstage.)
But the First one is quite popular (a few years ago I heard five live versions in a single year), probably because it's relatively short, yet has many of the composer's quirks that would later become trademarks.
--Bruce
I guess that after saying the Fourth is my favourite Mahler symphony, I won't be seen as a "true" Mahlerian by many.... ;)
Quote from: Dave B on November 24, 2020, 12:29:28 PM
Very interesting.Thank you.
You're welcome. I'm not sure if I've seen you here before, but a belated welcome nevertheless!
Quote from: ritter on November 24, 2020, 12:50:01 PM
I guess that after saying the Fourth is my favourite Mahler symphony, I won't be seen as a "true" Mahlerian by many.... ;)
I love the 4th --- it's certainly one of his more approachable symphonies. I adore that slow movement (
Ruhevoll, poco adagio) and the final movement is pure magic.
I still think that the best pathway into Mahler could be the orchestral songs.
Firstly, they are extraordinary pieces in their own right. Secondly, they do capture particularly Mahlerian moods one will encounter again in the symphonies and also form a strange bridge to early romanticism. Whereas his symphonies could seem to start as Über-Beethoven or Bruckner, the texts of the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer songs hark back to the time and themes of Schubert. Thirdly, the very music of the songs does appear in the symphonies: Gesellen in #1, Wunderhorn in 2,3 and 4 are the closest relations. But both Wunderhorn and Kindertotenlieder are quoted in 5, and 6 has at least the mood of "Tamboursgsell" (the last Wunderhorn lied), likewise the first Nachtmusik of the 7th clearly has that mood from the soldiers and wanderers, the 8th stand apart with higher goals, the 9th could be seen as a symphonic scale elaboration of "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" from the Rückert settings.
Quote from: ritter on November 24, 2020, 12:50:01 PM
I guess that after saying the Fourth is my favourite Mahler symphony, I won't be seen as a "true" Mahlerian by many.... ;)
Nyah, you're good. 8)
--Bruce
Quote from: Jo498 on November 24, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I still think that the best pathway into Mahler could be the orchestral songs.
Firstly, they are extraordinary pieces in their own right. Secondly, they do capture particularly Mahlerian moods one will encounter again in the symphonies and also form a strange bridge to early romanticism. Whereas his symphonies could seem to start as Über-Beethoven or Bruckner, the texts of the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer songs hark back to the time and themes of Schubert. Thirdly, the very music of the songs does appear in the symphonies: Gesellen in #1, Wunderhorn in 2,3 and 4 are the closest relations. But both Wunderhorn and Kindertotenlieder are quoted in 5, and 6 has at least the mood of "Tamboursgsell" (the last Wunderhorn lied), likewise the first Nachtmusik of the 7th clearly has that mood from the soldiers and wanderers, the 8th stand apart with higher goals, the 9th could be seen as a symphonic scale elaboration of "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" from the Rückert settings.
Points for analytic detail! And to return to the poster's original query, all of these songs are so, so enjoyable. For a composer with so many tricks up his sleeve, his sheer melodic gifts were formidable.
--Bruce
Forget about the (false) accusations of sentimentality, by those who are put off by the temperament and outlook of the pieces.
There's not at least plenty of attractive, multi-layered complexity to the music.
In recent years, I've moved more towards the 6th, Bertini's and Currentzis' brilliant recordings opening up the work more for me. The 3rd, 9th and 10th are some other favourites. I like some parts of the 7th a lot, but the Finale represented a problem; Maazel/Vienna with the surprising, less stressful slowness might grow on me.
He has that Mahler sound that other people rarely do.
Sure, having huge symphonies is cool but it's all about those harmonies which pack an intensity and tension that other composers don't offer. Huge orchestras/symphonies don't matter if your music sound dull and lifeless.
It feels like the foundation of the musical language primarily came from Wagner's Tristan und Isolde, which was a good choice to develop and make his own.
Quote from: Brewski on November 24, 2020, 11:32:18 AM
(Or were, since now many musicians can tackle things with more apparent ease than some of their predecessors.) So part of it is the "big orchestral showpiece" element. Mahler also deploys many unusual combinations of instruments, or uses them in different ways that challenge conventions. A favorite example is the third movement of the First Symphony, which begins with a solo on the double bass, but up high on the string, so the tone almost sounds more like a viola or a cello.
I have read that these odd sounds like the double bass solo or also some solos and combinations in the 3rd symphony and elsewhere would have sounded even more jarring in Mahler's time because the general level of orchestral virtuosity was much lower, especially in departments such as double bass or middle/lower brass players. So they would have been struggling with these passages.
Maybe the point was exaggerated but basically the claim was that some of Mahler's sounds were much closer to a marching band or a kapelye at a Jewish wedding than when delivered by professional virtuosi of the late 20th/early 21st century.
Quote from: Dave B on November 24, 2020, 11:14:22 AM
If you do in fact enjoy his music. My field is law, not music. And as I've said elsewhere, my knowledge of classical music is only rudimentary at best . .....but for several years I've wondered exactly what it is about Mahler's music that makes it attractive to so many. I've been on and off this forum since 2008 and never asked the question till now. Thanks in advance for any comments and insights.
You are not alone. I have myself always found the widespread worship of Mahler bizarre. To me he is "just" a fine composer among many other fine composers. :P
I'm a Mahler fan and really like his first and fourth symphonies along with the fifth. The great thing about all of them is the range of interpretative options which all sound valid.
Quote from: Jo498 on November 24, 2020, 01:09:28 PM
I still think that the best pathway into Mahler could be the orchestral songs.
Firstly, they are extraordinary pieces in their own right. Secondly, they do capture particularly Mahlerian moods one will encounter again in the symphonies and also form a strange bridge to early romanticism. Whereas his symphonies could seem to start as Über-Beethoven or Bruckner, the texts of the Wunderhorn and Wayfarer songs hark back to the time and themes of Schubert. Thirdly, the very music of the songs does appear in the symphonies: Gesellen in #1, Wunderhorn in 2,3 and 4 are the closest relations. But both Wunderhorn and Kindertotenlieder are quoted in 5, and 6 has at least the mood of "Tamboursgsell" (the last Wunderhorn lied), likewise the first Nachtmusik of the 7th clearly has that mood from the soldiers and wanderers, the 8th stand apart with higher goals, the 9th could be seen as a symphonic scale elaboration of "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" from the Rückert settings.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I definitely listen to the songs a lot more often than the symphonies.