GMG Classical Music Forum

List some works you should like or should like more but you simply don't like considerably. It's not about questioning the greatness of the pieces, but how you react to them.

Mine are these:

Bach: Choral preludes for organ
Bartók: Concerto for Orchestra
Debussy: Préludes and other of his piano music
Dvorak: Wind Serenade
Rachmaninov: Vespers
Prokofiev: Lieutenante Kije Suite
Schumann: Symphony No. 1
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 14
Sibelius: Pohjola's Daughter, Pelleas et Melisande

LvB "Emperor" Concerto
Grieg Pf Cto
Delibes Coppélia
Bizet L'Arlésienne Suites
JSB Orchestral Suite No. 4 in D, BWV 1069
Copland The Red Pony Suite
Orff Carmina Burana
Insert three Delius pieces

I can already tell this thread is going to be upsetting  ;D ;D

Bach - the really long big sacred pieces
Beethoven - Piano Concerto No. 3*
Beethoven - Violin Concerto*
Granados - Goyescas
Mahler - Symphony No. 5 (except the adagietto)
Mozart - Requiem
Orff - Carmina Burana
Ravel - Valses nobles et sentimentales
Schumann - Piano Concerto
Second Viennese School

*this might be a problem of performances, 90% of which nowadays think the first movement should be andante

Also I wouldn't say I dislike them or something, but only sometimes can I enjoy the piano concertos and first symphony of Brahms.
Schubert's Fifth Symphony appears to be a lot of people's favorite from 1-6, but it's my second-to-least favorite behind 1. I'd go (modern numbering) 8, 6, 3, 4, 7, 2, 5, 1

Quote from: Brian on July 20, 2021, 05:33:13 PMSecond Viennese School

Hmmm...no love for Schoenberg's early works? Not even Verklärte Nacht? :-\

Orff Carmina Burana
Bach Brandenburg Concertos
Vivaldi Four Seasons
Brahms Symphonies
Strauss Salome
Almost anything that can be "Darmstadt School"

The first four are victims of burnout syndrome: I've heard them so many times in my life I rarely want to hear them again.

Quote from: JBS on July 20, 2021, 07:44:10 PM
Orff Carmina Burana

I re-appreciated this often maligned work when I became acquainted with Stravinsky's Les noces. It made abundantly clear where many of Carmina Burana's orchestral effects came from. 😎

The general style of Carmina burana is a popularized way of Les noces. But whereas Carmina Burana is innocent fun once in a while, I cannot get into that Russian shouting match with only pianos/percussion. But Les noces is probably not well known or popular enough.


Mozart: Requiem
an uneven mixed bag (completely understandable from the history) and the best movement, the Introitus, is 1/3 Handel, 1/3 Michael Haydn. The Kyrie is good but also a bit generic and often turned into a "choral polyphony etude" to be sung as fast as possible (like "And he shall purify), then its downhill with a few good pieces between rather generic stuff (there are dozens of Bach cantatas or Handel anthems that are IMO better than the bulk of the Requiem).

Haydn: Military symphony
not bad but very overrated because of the superficial effects and for me the least interesting of the symphonies since 82

Beethoven: Pastoral symphony
I still love the first movement but the brook is already a bit boring and the finale is also too long and uneventful

Schubert: 5th symphony
a charming but played to death predictable Mozart-Haydn pastiche, I can enjoy it once in a blue moon but prefer all the other early symphonies.
(For the last three pieces named, it is not a strong dislike but rather a large discrepancy to common opinion as they are among the best-loved of these composers)

Tchaikovsky: Rococo variations, one of the few pieces of this list I actively dislike and would avoid. I could not stand the violin concerto for years but the Repin/Gergiev live recording redeemed it to some extent.

Saint Saens: Organ symphony
gimmicky and just not very interesting to me

Strauss: Heldenleben
interminable, trite and boring

Shostakovich: 7th symphony
interminable, trite and boring

Wow, Jo and I really agree on a lot. The Rococo Variations are extremely boring, one of the worst pieces by any major composer to me. And I forgot Ein Heldenleben but I listened for the first time ever earlier this year and on first listen, absolutely hated it. I do think the finale of the Beethoven Pastoral should be about 10% faster than is commonly done. There is a slightly faster tempo which, if you get it correctly in your head, sounds lively but has a lyrical, sung quality as if the melody is a folk song for voices.

I love the Organ Symphony but I do know from hearing it (and from talking to organists) that the organ part is extremely simple and can be played by any adequate student. The fact that recordings all compete to use the greatest organists on the planet (coming soon there's one with Thierry Escaich!!) is total overkill and a waste of talent when they could be doing organ concertos/symphonies by Widor, Copland, Poulenc, etc.

Bach St. Matthew Passion
Berlioz Scène aux champs (I love the other movements of the SF)
Stravinsky The Firebird
Verdi Don Carlos
Beethoven Fidelio

Quote from: Brian on July 20, 2021, 05:33:13 PM
I can already tell this thread is going to be upsetting  ;D ;D

Yeah...I'm loading my bazooka  ;)

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2021, 06:23:04 AM
Yeah...I'm loading my bazooka  ;)

Sarge

As I knew you would! ;D

I'm going over ten --- in no particular order:

Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake and The Nutcracker --- both of these works just bore me to tears, but I do like The Sleeping Beauty quite a bit
Ravel: Bolero
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 --- I would die a happy man if I never hear this symphony again
Prokofiev: Romeo & Juliet --- it's not a bad work of course, but I just find it overlong and mind-numbingly boring as the ballet progresses
Strauss: Ein Heldenleben --- my least favorite of the tone poems and incredibly difficult to get through without yawning
Elgar: Symphony No. 1 in A♭ major, Op. 55 and all of the Pomp & Circumstance Marches
Satie: Trois Gymnopédies
Schumann: All of the symphonies
Glass: Einstein on the Beach or really anything I've heard from him --- overrated, Minimalistic junk
Pärt: Für Alina --- Zzzz...
Reich: Music for 18 Musicians --- Dear God make it stop!!!

Okay, I think that's enough for now. ;D

Quote from: Wanderer on July 20, 2021, 09:09:51 PM
I re-appreciated this often maligned work when I became acquainted with Stravinsky's Les noces. It made abundantly clear where many of Carmina Burana's orchestral effects came from. 😎

My problem is not with the work itself. My problem is that I've heard it so many times it now bores me to death. Even the on-stage orgasm can't save it.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2021, 07:44:12 AM
Prokofiev: Romeo & Juliet --- it's not a bad work of course, but I just find it overlong and mind-numbingly boring as the ballet progresses

The problem with every single adaptation of R&J (Berlioz too) (well...and Shakespeare!) is that the ending is an anticlimax. All the fun stuff happens in the middle, and then at the end you just have a bunch of people being asleep and drinking poisons.

Piano Concertos
Solo Piano Music
Chopin
Liszt
Piano Etudes

You get the general idea, until you get to ten well-known piano-based/piano-forward works.

There are obviously exceptions, but even considering its almost limitless versatility, I have less love for the piano than for other instruments.

Quote from: Brian on July 21, 2021, 08:40:52 AM
The problem with every single adaptation of R&J (Berlioz too) (well...and Shakespeare!) is that the ending is an anticlimax. All the fun stuff happens in the middle, and then at the end you just have a bunch of people being asleep and drinking poisons.

And the depressing fact that the climax consists of a 17 year old and a 14 year old killing themselves. (At least in the Shakespearean version: their ages are mentioned in the play's early scenes.)

Quote from: JBS on July 21, 2021, 07:48:41 AM
My problem is not with the work itself. My problem is that I've heard it so many times it now bores me to death. Even the on-stage orgasm can't save it.

Nope.

Any symphony by Bruckner, except 1 and 4.

Anything by Wagner.

Brahms' First Symphony.

Beethoven's odd-numbered symphonies, except 1.

Quote from: Brian on July 21, 2021, 05:45:12 AM
Wow, Jo and I really agree on a lot. The Rococo Variations are extremely boring, one of the worst pieces by any major composer to me. And I forgot Ein Heldenleben but I listened for the first time ever earlier this year and on first listen, absolutely hated it. I do think the finale of the Beethoven Pastoral should be about 10% faster than is commonly done. There is a slightly faster tempo which, if you get it correctly in your head, sounds lively but has a lyrical, sung quality as if the melody is a folk song for voices.

I think the main reason for the ubiquity of the Rococo is the dearth of good concertante cello works (and maybe the LP playing times that made it an ideal filler).
As for the Pastoral, I also think that all movements except dance + storm are often played a bit too slow. I still think that it is one of the most successful "mildly programmatic" pieces and it's Beethoven in his prime, so it is still good. I just almost never feel like listening to it.
Like with Mozart's Requiem it's more that I am puzzled at the praise and extreme popularity. Despite its borrowing from Handel and Michael Haydn the Introitus does add a personal touch and there are a few hints of this also in later pieces (I love the Confutatis that is used in that famous scene in "Amadeus").
But the Kyrie is often treated as the second coming (at least of Bach, if not Christ) when it is in fact a fairly generic piece (like "And he shall purify" and countless others). And so on.

Quote
I love the Organ Symphony but I do know from hearing it (and from talking to organists) that the organ part is extremely simple and can be played by any adequate student. The fact that recordings all compete to use the greatest organists on the planet (coming soon there's one with Thierry Escaich!!) is total overkill and a waste of talent when they could be doing organ concertos/symphonies by Widor, Copland, Poulenc, etc.

I am generally not too fond of organ mixed with large orchestra (Handel or Bach BWV 146 is o.k.) and neither of organ and piano occurring in non-concertante orchestral works. More often than not it appears gimmicky to me. (I have heard but do not know well some of the other pieces you mention.)

Wagner - Tristan und Isolde. Everything in it is very well done, but it makes me feel like the composer is trying to blatantly and shamelessly manipulate me, and my brain naturally rejects this. It feels like a bizarre form of "re-education": You Are Feeling Longing Now. You Must Feel Sexual Arousal For The Next 37 Bars. The Dominant Seventh Pedal Will Continue Until Emotional Response Improves.

Mozart - String Quartet in B-flat major, KV458. The only Mozart piece I know of that actively annoys me (apart from some of the more overplayed numbers from the London sketchbook).

Beethoven - Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125. The first three movements are boring, and even feel like the composer was bored; that he was still trying to write in his "middle period" style but had run out of ideas. Things pick up when the singers enter.

Chopin - Polonaise in A-flat major, Op. 53 ("Heroic" or "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome"). I am actually not alone in this, the rest of my family members also hate this piece. I think it may just be Chopin's style not doing well in pieces of an unambiguously triumphant cast; it feels crude and violent when it's probably not supposed to. (I love its counterpart, the Polonaise in F-sharp minor Op. 44, which has almost the same exact structure, but in which the crudeness and violence are completely intentional.)

Shostakovich - Symphony No. 10 in E minor, Op. 93. I guess it's not terrible, but people regularly point to this as the composer's greatest work while apart from the scherzo (which is indeed very fun) the rest of it feels like a slog. In live performances I find myself half asleep up until the tam-tam crash in the last movement, which signals "almost time to go home".

I have actually listened to all of the Strauss tone poems with the assistance of my university library's Strauss Complete Edition scores, and nevertheless remember none of them, so I suppose Heldenleben may be terrible or maybe just unmemorable but it didn't stand out as particularly either one compared to his other works. (The only one I remember is Till Eulenspiegel and that's because we had to analyse it in a high school music theory class.)

I don't mind the Mozart Requiem, though it's not his best work by any means. But honestly in general, for most of everyone else's choices (even the pieces I love), I can definitely understand why someone would hate them. No real WTF moments in this thread from that perspective.

Quote from: Brian on July 21, 2021, 08:40:52 AM
The problem with every single adaptation of R&J (Berlioz too) (well...and Shakespeare!) is that the ending is an anticlimax. All the fun stuff happens in the middle, and then at the end you just have a bunch of people being asleep and drinking poisons.

Berlioz' Finale is a large-scale, stirring chorus of reconciliation. It is not the best music in the work but neither is it an anti-climax.

I am not enamoured with R&J from Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev. I have never liked the Tchaikovsky but I keep on accumulating versions of it as part of box sets, most recently from Bernstein and the NYPO. I haven't listened to the latter yet but I don't expect a revelation, even from Lenny.

Haydn's London symphonies because I listened to them too much early on.  It is not that I don't like them, but it is much more likely to put on something earlier especially storm and stress or Paris.

Vivaldi's four seasons

Schubert's lieder... it is true that if I find a performance that I like then I love what I'm listening to!  But many performances just leave me cold.  I don't know why that is.

I don't actively dislike most of these works, I just think they're overplayed and there are many lesser-known works that I enjoy more than them. I agree with a lot of selections made already:

Beethoven: Symphony no. 9
Berlioz: Requiem, Le Damnation de Faust
Brahms: Symphony no. 1
Debussy: Etudes, Estampes
Dvorak: Symphony no. 9
Elgar: Cello Concerto
Schumann: most of the solo piano music aside from the sonatas and the Fantasie in C
Stravinsky: Octet, Dumbarton Oaks
Tchaikovsky: Rococo Variations, Swan Lake, Sleeping Beauty (Nutcracker, while hopelessly overplayed, does contain some undoubtedly marvelous music)
Verdi: pretty much anything >:D

Quote from: kyjo on July 22, 2021, 09:53:43 AM
Dvorak: Symphony no. 9

Forgot this one. Will actually outright state that it is a bad symphony. Particularly the finale, but the constant cyclic recurrence of themes from earlier movements is so clumsily done it sours the rest of the piece in retrospect.

Quote from: amw on July 22, 2021, 11:04:24 AM
Forgot this one. Will actually outright state that it is a bad symphony. Particularly the finale, but the constant cyclic recurrence of themes from earlier movements is so clumsily done it sours the rest of the piece in retrospect.

Not sure about bad but it is his weakest since the Fourth (and the Third was stronger too).

Bach: Art of Fugue
Beethoven: Grosse Fuge, string orchestra version
Berlioz: Lélio
Bernstein: Kaddish symphony (with the spoken parts)
Machaut, Pérotin, etc - wake me up when you get to Palestrina  ;D
Mahler: 10th symphony
Reich: In C
Shostakovich: symphony no 3
Stravinsky: everything from his serial period
Wagner: Parzzzzzzzifal 😴

As the title of the thread says, I do not enjoy these works very much. On some occasions I will, but most of the time, no. I feel like in the ferris wheel, stuck in the air while every gondola is emptied, one by one. I can't wait to get off.  :P

Quote from: André on July 22, 2021, 01:46:27 PMReich: In C

Certainly you meant Riley?

Quote from: amw on July 22, 2021, 11:04:24 AM
Forgot this one. Will actually outright state that it is a bad symphony. Particularly the finale, but the constant cyclic recurrence of themes from earlier movements is so clumsily done it sours the rest of the piece in retrospect.

Well put, and I agree. I find the piece to be formally rather unsatisfyingly and unsubtly constructed, which is unusual considering I typically find Dvorak to be an absolute master of form - witness the 8th Symphony, Cello Concerto, and other works written around the same time.

Quote from: kyjo on July 22, 2021, 08:03:13 PM
Well put, and I agree. I find the piece to be formally rather unsatisfyingly and unsubtly constructed, which is unusual considering I typically find Dvorak to be an absolute master of form - witness the 8th Symphony, Cello Concerto, and other works written around the same time.

I concur. I'm also no great fan of Dvořák's 9th. :-[ Like you, I love this composer, but, man, he completely hammed it up in this symphony I'm afraid. It's overrated, overplayed and most of all, it's just not that convincing of a work.

Strauss: Heldenleben (same reason as Jo498) - the same goes for 'An Alpine Symphony' (I find 'In the Tatras' by Novak, for example, a much greater 'mountaineering work' although it is far shorter).
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony
Bartok: Concerto for Orchestra (a great work but lost its appeal through over-familiarity)
VW: Serenade to Music (vocal version) (cloying, self-congratulatory)  :o
Bernstein: Chichester Psalms (cloying, though, as with VW, I greatly admire his work generally)
Chopin (generally)
Schuman (generally)
New Year's Day Concert from Vienna (other than 'The Blue Danube')
Gottschalk: 'Night in the Tropics' (big disappointment)
Mozart: 'Cosi fan tutte' + all the other operas.

I know you'll all agree  8)

Quote from: André on July 22, 2021, 01:46:27 PM
Mahler: 10th symphony

That's a similar, probably worse case than the Mozart Requiem for me. Not quite the otherwordly status. But again, the completed part is great or at least on the level of the composer and hinting at what might have been. The reconstructed parts rather uneven etc.

I will stick to instrumental/concert music, otherwise the whole thing will be nothing but famous operas.

Stravinsky - Le Sacre du printemps
Debussy - Études
Berlioz - Symphonie fantastique
Brahms - Symphony No. 4
Reich - Music for Eighteen Musicians
Gorecki - Symphony No. 3
Beethoven - Violin Concerto
Vaughan Williams - The Lark Ascending
Wagner - Siegfried Idyll
Strauss - Ein Heldenleben

P.S.: A note on Mahler's Tenth. There are no truly satisfying "completions", but I think those who are disappointed with the ubiquitous Cooke version might find the Barshai version more agreeable. I would say the orchestration there is more in line with the "Mahlerian spirit" than any other.

Quote from: Crudblud on July 23, 2021, 01:33:12 AM
P.S.: A note on Mahler's Tenth. There are no truly satisfying "completions", but I think those who are disappointed with the ubiquitous Cooke version might find the Barshai version more agreeable. I would say the orchestration there is more in line with the "Mahlerian spirit" than any other.

Given that I almost never listen to Mahler 10 I was very surprised to find that I somehow have both the arranger's own recording and another one by Vladimir Ashkenazy. I will have to listen to them someday. Maybe next year.

Quote from: Brian on July 22, 2021, 12:13:30 PM
Not sure about bad but it is his weakest since the Fourth (and the Third was stronger too).

The Fourth has over time become one of my very favourite Dvořák symphonies, but that is a topic for another thread.

I would rate the Ninth ahead of the Second, maybe, just since that's the one symphony I can never remember anything about; I'd probably at this point put even the First ahead of it. With all that said, the first movement of the Ninth is fine, at least as good as some other second-tier late Dvořák (The Hero's Song, etc,) as are the first six or seven minutes of the second movement.... until the cyclic references start turning up. I dunno. Maybe I'm just being unduly harsh because this was the first Dvořák piece I heard and made me write him off altogether as a composer, then I heard the other eight symphonies, the concertos, mature chamber music, symphonic poems and overtures etc, and developed an extremely high opinion of him, and then came back to the Ninth and was somehow almost offended. It's like, I expected better!

For the "great works" that have cloyed through overexposure, I've found what's most helpful is very tightly curating my own musical experiences: I rarely go to concerts, I don't listen to the radio, and almost everything I listen to comes from my music library, which I try to keep as comprehensive as possible. The ability to randomise albums/classical works for playback, and to designate smart playlists only covering the particular musical topics I'm interested in at the moment, does well at keeping my focus off the overplayed warhorses, or for that matter my personal favourites. As such, this has allowed for things like rediscovering the Beethoven symphonies long after dismissing them as overfamiliar, simply because after a few years of not hearing them, they aren't overfamiliar anymore, and etc. But I recognise that this is not how many people prefer to consume music.

My list so far....

Bizet's Carmen - heard too many times
Vivaldi's Four Seasons  - same
Pachelbel's Canon - same
Orff's Carmina Burana - not my cup of tea
Bach's Brandenburg Concertos - need a break from

PD

Quote from: amw on July 23, 2021, 01:55:26 AM
The Fourth has over time become one of my very favourite Dvořák symphonies, but that is a topic for another thread.

A thread I'll happily read! (Maybe over in "Dvorak's Den".)

Quote from: amw on July 23, 2021, 01:55:26 AM
For the "great works" that have cloyed through overexposure, I've found what's most helpful is very tightly curating my own musical experiences: I rarely go to concerts, I don't listen to the radio, and almost everything I listen to comes from my music library, which I try to keep as comprehensive as possible.

Agreed - I don't listen to any radio and although I go to 4-6 orchestral concerts a year, having a world-class (even if it's like, B Tier globally) orchestra in town means the luxury of choosing the concerts that most closely align with my interests. It's always surprising to read people saying that they've heard something too many times...and then I remember that radio exists.

Quote from: amw on July 23, 2021, 01:55:26 AM
Given that I almost never listen to Mahler 10 I was very surprised to find that I somehow have both the arranger's own recording and another one by Vladimir Ashkenazy. I will have to listen to them someday. Maybe next year.

Definitely worth a look. Barshai's own is my preference, although the recording quality is strange. I don't know enough about audio engineering to say what the problem is, but "blown out" is the phrase that most readily comes to mind. Odd, considering the Fifth it accompanies is such a triumph of both artistic and technical execution. Ashkenazy has more balanced audio but he seems occasionally to second guess Barshai (and indeed everyone else) and make some changes of his own—the choice of percussion in the opening of the finale is especially baffling.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 23, 2021, 03:37:21 AM
My list so far....

Bizet's Carmen - heard too many times
Vivaldi's Four Seasons  - same
Pachelbel's Canon - same
Orff's Carmina Burana - not my cup of tea
Bach's Brandenburg Concertos - need a break from

PD

Largely agree with these choices.

Quote from: Brian on July 20, 2021, 05:33:13 PM
I can already tell this thread is going to be upsetting  ;D ;D

Bach - the really long big sacred pieces
Beethoven - Piano Concerto No. 3*
Beethoven - Violin Concerto*
Granados - Goyescas
Mahler - Symphony No. 5 (except the adagietto)
Mozart - Requiem
Orff - Carmina Burana
Ravel - Valses nobles et sentimentales
Schumann - Piano Concerto
Second Viennese School

I second the Mozart and Schumann. I've never been attracted to these pieces despite their huge popularity.

Quote from: JBS on July 20, 2021, 07:44:10 PM
Orff Carmina Burana
Bach Brandenburg Concertos
Vivaldi Four Seasons
Brahms Symphonies
Strauss Salome
Almost anything that can be "Darmstadt School"

The first four are victims of burnout syndrome: I've heard them so many times in my life I rarely want to hear them again.

That happens very often to me with other works too, so I prefer not to saturate myself by listening to them.

Count me as another who doesn't like Mahler's 10th. I love Mahler, but, I'm sorry, I believe Cooke, Carpenter or whoever else did their own version of the 10th, should've left it alone.

Quote from: Jo498 on July 20, 2021, 11:45:57 PM
Saint Saens: Organ symphony
gimmicky and just not very interesting to me

Strauss: Heldenleben
interminable, trite and boring

Shostakovich: 7th symphony
interminable, trite and boring

I can't agree with these, but that's fine. It's very amusing how many people dislike Ein Heldenleben. I enjoy it, but it's not my favorite tone poem by Strauss.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 21, 2021, 07:44:12 AM
I'm going over ten --- in no particular order:

Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake and The Nutcracker --- both of these works just bore me to tears, but I do like The Sleeping Beauty quite a bit
Ravel: Bolero
Beethoven: Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 --- I would die a happy man if I never hear this symphony again
Prokofiev: Romeo & Juliet --- it's not a bad work of course, but I just find it overlong and mind-numbingly boring as the ballet progresses
Strauss: Ein Heldenleben --- my least favorite of the tone poems and incredibly difficult to get through without yawning
Elgar: Symphony No. 1 in A♭ major, Op. 55 and all of the Pomp & Circumstance Marches
Satie: Trois Gymnopédies
Schumann: All of the symphonies
Glass: Einstein on the Beach or really anything I've heard from him --- overrated, Minimalistic junk
Pärt: Für Alina --- Zzzz...
Reich: Music for 18 Musicians --- Dear God make it stop!!!

Okay, I think that's enough for now. ;D

I thought that you have changed your mind about Tchaikovsky's ballets. Interesting. Also interesting the inclusion of the Elgar.

Quote from: foxandpeng on July 21, 2021, 12:00:36 PM
Piano Concertos
Solo Piano Music
Chopin
Liszt
Piano Etudes

Quite curious that you mention piano concertos. I can understand the point about solo piano music. In this form I prefer large-scale works like sonatas, variations, suites, etc, but little-tiny pieces like, say, 36 preludes, 26 small pieces, 18 dances...  :-\

I don't find them substantial as a whole.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 23, 2021, 07:58:44 PM
I thought that you have changed your mind about Tchaikovsky's ballets. Interesting. Also interesting the inclusion of the Elgar.

Honestly, I've never really liked The Nutcracker or Swan Lake even back when I was listening to Tchaikovsky more heavily 13 years ago or so. The Black Beauty I seem to like more than these two others, but not by much. I do like Tchaikovsky's symphonies, concerti, the symphonic poems, chamber music and solo piano music, though. I was listening to Swan Lake several weeks ago and enjoying it, but as the ballet progressed, I found myself basically enjoying it less and less. :-\

Quote from: amw on July 22, 2021, 01:16:27 AM
Shostakovich - Symphony No. 10 in E minor, Op. 93. I guess it's not terrible, but people regularly point to this as the composer's greatest work while apart from the scherzo (which is indeed very fun) the rest of it feels like a slog. In live performances I find myself half asleep up until the tam-tam crash in the last movement, which signals "almost time to go home".

I feel identified with the last phrase about the Shostakovich (I do consider it very good, though.)

I've had fun by reading other interesting opinions. It's quite cool to notice how we concur with some works and we don't with others.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 23, 2021, 08:07:10 PM
Honestly, I've never really liked The Nutcracker or Swan Lake even back when I was listening to Tchaikovsky more heavily 13 years ago or so. The Black Beauty I seem to like more than these two others, but not by much. I do like Tchaikovsky's symphonies, concerti, the symphonic poems, chamber music and solo piano music, though. I was listening to Swan Lake several weeks ago and enjoying, but as the ballet progressed, I found myself just not enjoying that much. :-\

Oh, I see. Good you do enjoy other works of his output in your re-familiarization.

I think I prefer the ballets and other "lighter" music like the string serenade overall to Tchaikovsky's symphonies. Admittedly, I am not likely to listen to complete ballets often but I find them better suited to his colorful and emotional style than "serious" music.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 23, 2021, 08:13:54 PM
I've had fun by reading other interesting opinions. It's quite cool to notice how we concur with some works and we don't with others.

Indeed. And in that spirit, I do not find the thread upsetting at all.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2021, 12:22:39 PM
Indeed. And in that spirit, I do not find the thread upsetting at all.

Same here!

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 23, 2021, 08:02:17 PM
Quite curious that you mention piano concertos. I can understand the point about solo piano music. In this form I prefer large-scale works like sonatas, variations, suites, etc, but little-tiny pieces like, say, 36 preludes, 26 small pieces, 18 dances...  :-\

I don't find them substantial as a whole.

I think that the piano concerto is less problematic, due to the depth brought by other instruments. I confess that some of my feelings spring from my gut, and need tempering with maturity, patience, exploration and curiosity. The piano can obviously be utterly incredible, but I have less enjoyment of virtuosity than I do with strings or wind instruments. I was put off dreadfully by two Marco Polo CDs of Godowsky's piano pieces that as a keen young man, I thought might be interesting, but nearly killed me as I tenaciously explored in the hope of learning something. That poor experience has coloured my thinking unnecessarily, but ripples persist. I doubt I will ever really take to music that centres solely or primarily on the instrument, but never say never! I would be naive and foolish to allow the past to determine the future.

Rach 2 and Henze 2 (piano concertos) and Bax Piano Quintet are exceptions to the rule.

I am still learning.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 24, 2021, 12:22:39 PM
Indeed. And in that spirit, I do not find the thread upsetting at all.

I agree also. I rarely allow anything to upset me nowadays. Difference is great, even passionate difference. Apart from politics and culture wars. They wind me up massively if I let them. So I don't.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 21, 2021, 06:16:23 AM
Bach St. Matthew Passion
Berlioz Scène aux champs (I love the other movements of the SF)
Stravinsky The Firebird
Verdi Don Carlos
Beethoven Fidelio

Sarge,

Is it the French version (Don Carlos) that you don't enjoy, or the opera overall?

PD

Quote from: foxandpeng on July 27, 2021, 03:18:38 AM
I think that the piano concerto is less problematic, due to the depth brought by other instruments. I confess that some of my feelings spring from my gut, and need tempering with maturity, patience, exploration and curiosity. The piano can obviously be utterly incredible, but I have less enjoyment of virtuosity than I do with strings or wind instruments. I was put off dreadfully by two Marco Polo CDs of Godowsky's piano pieces that as a keen young man, I thought might be interesting, but nearly killed me as I tenaciously explored in the hope of learning something. That poor experience has coloured my thinking unnecessarily, but ripples persist. I doubt I will ever really take to music that centres solely or primarily on the instrument, but never say never! I would be naive and foolish to allow the past to determine the future.

Rach 2 and Henze 2 (piano concertos) and Bax Piano Quintet are exceptions to the rule.

I am still learning. 

I agree also. I rarely allow anything to upset me nowadays. Difference is great, even passionate difference. Apart from politics and culture wars. They wind me up massively if I let them. So I don't.

You like Rach. 2?  Yeah!  ;D  I don't know Henze's music...will need to look into it.  And good luck with your piano explorations!

PD

One additional thought on the art of arranging......  I find it fascinating to see into the mind of the arranger as it throws light on how they in turn perceive the original work.  A prime example of this is the great Bach Chaconne.  I do understand if people feel it it musical desecration to 'tamper' with the original.  But there is a great Peters Edition publication which on the same page has the Bach solo violion alongside the piano accompaniments added by both Mendelssohn and Schumann.  For me it is a delight to see how those great composers viewed Bach - where the leading harmonies need reinforcing - the pointing of certain phrases.  Of course these do not supplant the solo work but for me they surely complement it.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 27, 2021, 03:29:56 AM
Sarge,

Is it the French version (Don Carlos) that you don't enjoy, or the opera overall?

PD

I don't like any of the versions. They just bore me.

Sarge

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 27, 2021, 03:34:04 AM
You like Rach. 2?  Yeah!  ;D  I don't know Henze's music...will need to look into it.  And good luck with your piano explorations!

PD

Thank you! And yes, Rach 2 is great.

Quote from: foxandpeng on July 27, 2021, 03:18:38 AMI was put off dreadfully by two Marco Polo CDs of Godowsky's piano pieces that as a keen young man, I thought might be interesting, but nearly killed me as I tenaciously explored in the hope of learning something.

That is almost the worst possible introduction to piano music since Godowsky is 100% purely about showing off and being flashy and generally working out pianists' finger muscles. Oof that's unfortunate!

Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2021, 06:48:19 AM
That is almost the worst possible introduction to piano music since Godowsky is 100% purely about showing off and being flashy and generally working out pianists' finger muscles. Oof that's unfortunate!

I am learning new ways of thinking, hopefully  :). I'm certainly benefitting from the wisdom and recommendations of this group.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 27, 2021, 05:30:01 AM
I don't like any of the versions. They just bore me.

Sarge

Conversely, it's one of my favorite operas! lol  ;D  That's o.k. though.   :)

PD

Quote from: foxandpeng on July 27, 2021, 07:25:01 AM
I am learning new ways of thinking, hopefully  :). I'm certainly benefitting from the wisdom and recommendations of this group.

Have you tried any of Janacek's piano music?  On an Overgrown Path and In the Mists are two favorite works of mine (Note:  they are for solo piano).  Just a suggestion if you're in the mood to explore further.

PD

Let's see:

Beethoven Wellington's Victory, Emperor Concerto
Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, Overture to Romeo and Juliet, Symphony No. 4
Wagner Ring cycle
Ravel Bolero
Rachmaninoff Isle of the Dead
Gershwin Rhapsody in Blue (not a strong dislike, mostly feel it's overplayed)
Most anything by Philip Glass

Can't think of any more at the moment, but I'm sure there are others.

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 27, 2021, 07:34:54 AM
Conversely, it's one of my favorite operas! lol  ;D  That's o.k. though.   :)

PD

It's considered one of Verdi's best. The fault lies with me, I guess.

Sarge

Quote from: krummholz on July 27, 2021, 07:52:13 AM
Let's see:

Beethoven Wellington's Victory, Emperor Concerto
Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, Overture to Romeo and Juliet, Symphony No. 4
Wagner Ring cycle
Ravel Bolero
Rachmaninoff Isle of the Dead
Gershwin Rhapsody in Blue (not a strong dislike, mostly feel it's overplayed)
Most anything by Philip Glass

Can't think of any more at the moment, but I'm sure there are others.

Must admit:  the 1812 I only really enjoy hearing once a year--on the Fourth of July.  Bolero, I could see adding that onto my list.  Rhapsody in Blue--once a year works for me.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 27, 2021, 08:34:24 AM
It's considered one of Verdi's best. The fault lies with me, I guess.

Sarge

Hey, if we all agreed on our favorite music, life would be booorring.  ;)

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 27, 2021, 08:53:47 AM
Must admit:  the 1812 I only really enjoy hearing once a year--on the Fourth of July. 

The best time I've ever heard it was on the 14th of July, Bastille Day - in Paris - coming from someone's open house window. Presumably not someone with a history degree - or maybe it was the Russian embassy!

Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2021, 08:56:41 AM
The best time I've ever heard it was on the 14th of July, Bastille Day - in Paris - coming from someone's open house window. Presumably not someone with a history degree - or maybe it was the Russian embassy!

:laugh:  ;D

PD

I'm sure we've done this somewhere before, but always fun, and quite revealing.  My lazy approach has been to pick works from the posts of other people with whom I clearly share certain revulsions:

Grieg Pf Cto
Dvorak: Symphony no. 9
Prokofiev: Classical Symphony
Vaughan Williams - The Lark Ascending

after which I have to think of a few of my own:

Milhaud - Le boeuf sur le toit
Mozart - Piano concerto no.21
Canteloube - Songs of the Auvergne
Schumann - 4th symphony
Mendelssohn - Elijah
Pretty much anything performed by Édith Piaf

Quote from: Jo498 on July 20, 2021, 11:45:57 PM
Shostakovich: 7th symphony
interminable, trite and boring

which was also my opinion until I performed the piece (well, actually I didn't - actually I had to hand over my sticks, and stand and count for a "star" drummer who was brought in at the last minute, and who it turned out couldn't read music.  He was a good drummer, though, to be fair).  After performing it I realised that, apart from most of the first movement, the rest is pretty damn good.

I found the exercise revealing because several of the composers on my list are particular favourites - perhaps there's an element of "I love you and in return you write that thing."

Well, I'd argue that the *Grieg piano concerto is absolutely beautiful--that and Vaughan Williams' Lark.  Yes, it's (the pc), big ole Romantic, but for me, it just sweeps me along.  :)

*Some favorite recordings:  Andsnes, Lupu, Curzon

PD

Quote from: DaveF on July 27, 2021, 09:19:01 AMMilhaud - Le boeuf sur le toit

I never have liked this work either. La Création du monde is a much finer work (and it's a popular one as well).

Oh, see, I prefer the cow on the roof to the creation of the world. But there's always a dissenter  ;D

Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Oh, see, I prefer the cow on the roof to the creation of the world. But there's always a dissenter  ;D

Except when it comes to Lutosławski Concerto for Orchestra recordings. ;)

Quote from: Brian on July 27, 2021, 11:05:49 AM
Oh, see, I prefer the cow on the roof to the creation of the world. But there's always a dissenter  ;D

Sometimes even two! Le boeuf sur le toit is a masterpiece of sunny&funny music. The real dissenters here are the doom&gloom brigade...  ;D

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 27, 2021, 09:59:20 AM
Well, I'd argue that the *Grieg piano concerto is absolutely beautiful--that and Vaughan Williams' Lark.  Yes, it's (the pc), big ole Romantic, but for me, it just sweeps me along.  :)

*Some favorite recordings:  Andsnes, Lupu, Curzon

PD

Amen, sister!

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 11:15:10 AM
Sometimes even two! Le boeuf sur le toit is a masterpiece of sunny&funny music. The real dissenters here are the doom&gloom brigade...  ;D

Guilty as charged! :P My posse can speak up now...I mean come on guys.  ::) ;D

Quote from: DaveF on July 27, 2021, 09:19:01 AM
Dvorak: Symphony no. 9

Oh, yeah! Overblown, overplayed, absolutely nothing to write home about. On a par with Beethoven's 9th. Worth a listen once in a blue moon, though.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2021, 11:17:12 AM
Guilty as charged! :P My posse can speak up now...I mean come on guys.  ::) ;D

All jokes aside, John my dear friend, I really love Le boeuf sur le toit. Unfailingly melodious, infectiously rythmical, always puts a smile on my face, has been a earworm ever since I first heard it --- right up my alley.  :)

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 11:32:18 AM
All jokes aside, John my dear friend, I really love Le boeuf sur le toit. Unfailingly melodious, infectiously rythmical, always puts a smile on my face, has been a earworm ever since I first heard it --- right up my alley.  :)

I'm all for jovial and good-spirited music, but this work just has never done anything for me, but to each their own of course.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2021, 11:38:31 AM
I'm all for jovial and good-spirited music, but this work just has never done anything for me, but to each their own of course.

Of course, John!

What are the best five jovial and good-spirited works that you would recommend me?

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 12:04:10 PM
Of course, John!

What are the best five jovial and good-spirited works that you would recommend me?

Determined to de-rail the thread are we?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2021, 12:22:57 PM
Determined to de-rail the thread are we?

Given that John can always choose to reply to me in a PM, or not at all, or that any mod can chop off this bit of discussion at any time, I'd say you're overreacting.

And besides, there are certainly worse ways to derail this thread, methinks.

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 11:16:00 AM
Amen, sister!

So, do you like both of those works Floristan?

PD

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 27, 2021, 12:44:15 PM
So, do you like both of those works Floristan?

PD

I most certainly do.

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 12:04:10 PM
Of course, John!

What are the best five jovial and good-spirited works that you would recommend me?

I'm not sure about 'recommend' as you've probably heard all what I'm about to type...but five off the top of my head and in no order:

Mendelssohn: Symphony No. 3 in A minor, Op. 56, "Scottish"
Tippett: Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Martinů: Symphony No. 2, H. 295
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G

Edit: This list aren't works that I don't enjoy but rather works that I think are good-spirited and joyous. I already have given my list of works that I don't enjoy on the first page. ;)

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 12:27:16 PM
Given that John can always choose to reply to me in a PM, or not at all, or that any mod can chop off this bit of discussion at any time, I'd say you're overreacting.

Quote from: Florestan on July 27, 2021, 12:27:16 PM
Given that John can always choose to reply to me in a PM, or not at all, or that any mod can chop off this bit of discussion at any time, I'd say you're overreacting.

And besides, there are certainly worse ways to derail this thread, methinks.

"overreacting?" well there's a curious opinion

And, no, he cannot reply to you in a PM when your in box is full, can he or I?  As here for instance.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2021, 01:27:32 PM
he cannot reply to you in a PM when your in box is full, can he or I?  As here for instance.

Fixed and thanks.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2021, 01:21:20 PM
I'm not sure about 'recommend' as you've probably heard all what I'm about to type...but five off the top of my head and in no order:

Mendelssohn: Symphony No. 3 in A minor, Op. 56, "Scottish"
Tippett: Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Martinů: Symphony No. 2, H. 295
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G

Thanks, John. Of those, I haven't heard the Tippett and Martinu works. The other ones are good choices indeed.

</end offtopic>

Quote from: Florestan on July 28, 2021, 12:26:06 AM
Thanks, John. Of those, I haven't heard the Tippett and Martinu works. The other ones are good choices indeed.

</end offtopic>

Oh you definitely need to hear the Tippett, Andrei. And well, the Martinů, too. 8)

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 27, 2021, 01:21:20 PM
I'm not sure about 'recommend' as you've probably heard all what I'm about to type...but five off the top of my head and in no order:

Mendelssohn: Symphony No. 3 in A minor, Op. 56, "Scottish"
Tippett: Concerto for Double String Orchestra
Martinů: Symphony No. 2, H. 295
Copland: Appalachian Spring
Ravel: Piano Concerto in G

Interesting.  As for me, I love Ravel's Piano Concerto in G (as well as the one for the left-hand)....a bit surprised that you don't like it to be honest.  And Copland's Applachian Spring, I also enjoy that work.  Will have to revisit the other ones.  What is it that you don't like about those two works in particular John?  Just curious and trying to understand what it is that you like vs. don't like.  :)

PD

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 28, 2021, 01:46:19 PM
Interesting.  As for me, I love Ravel's Piano Concerto in G (as well as the one for the left-hand)....a bit surprised that you don't like it to be honest.  And Copland's Applachian Spring, I also enjoy that work.  Will have to revisit the other ones.  What is it that you don't like about those two works in particular John?  Just curious and trying to understand what it is that you like vs. don't like.  :)

PD

Ah, this is a list of works that I think express a jovial and good-spirited quality, which Andrei (Florestan) had asked me for yesterday. ;) I LOVE all of these works. If I ever said a negative thing about Ravel's Piano Concerto in G, you might as well throw me off a bridge, because this is one of my favorite piano concerti (and the same goes for the Piano Concerto for the left-hand).

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 28, 2021, 01:59:08 PM
Ah, this is a list a works that I think express a jovial and good-spirited quality, which Andrei (Florestan) had asked me for yesterday. ;) I LOVE all of these works. If I ever said a negative thing about Ravel's Piano Concerto in G, you might as well throw me off a bridge, because this is one of my favorite piano concerti (and the same goes for the Piano Concerto for the left-hand).

Sorry, yes, I see it now.  I was looking and reading things in this thread as works the "you don't enjoy so much" and so had reread it as such today.   :-[  It's easier to follow when one sticks to the original thread point--for me anyway.

Best wishes,

PD

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 28, 2021, 02:06:51 PM
Sorry, yes, I see it now.  I was looking and reading things in this thread as works the "you don't enjoy so much" and so had reread it as such today.   :-[  It's easier to follow when one sticks to the original thread point--for me anyway.

Best wishes,

PD

Well, there are many members here that are notorious for derailing threads (myself included). This won't change any time soon. :)

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on July 28, 2021, 01:46:19 PM
Interesting.  As for me, I love Ravel's Piano Concerto in G (as well as the one for the left-hand)....a bit surprised that you don't like it to be honest.  And Copland's Applachian Spring, I also enjoy that work.  Will have to revisit the other ones.  What is it that you don't like about those two works in particular John?  Just curious and trying to understand what it is that you like vs. don't like.  :)

PD

PD, although our friend Andrei called my remark an "overreaction" you have been entirely understandably confused by the sustained thread derailment. It is not that John doesn't like those pieces ... in fact, he is recommending that Andrei give them a listen.  I wonder if Andrei wishes to withdraw the quip he glibly threw at me?  I wonder if he ever reflects that he does others the occasional disservice.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 28, 2021, 02:08:02 PM
Well, there are many members here that are notorious for derailing threads (myself included). This won't change any time soon. :)

Even though some of us overreact in pointing it out.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2021, 02:28:28 PM
Even though some of us overreact in pointing it out.

Well, I wish not to get between you and Andrei, but I'm not a fan of thread derailment, because as you and PD have rightfully pointed out will lead to some confusion along the way.

Quote from: Mirror Image on July 28, 2021, 02:30:03 PM
Well, I wish not to get between you and Andrei

You haven't, rest easy.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 28, 2021, 02:27:27 PM
I wonder if Andrei wishes to withdraw the quip he glibly threw at me?

He does. He overreacted.  ;)

Quote
I wonder if he ever reflects that he does others the occasional disservice.

You'd be surprised to learn how many times he finds himself deeply regretting having posted this or that, especially when the exchange leads to conflict. Fortunately, this is not the case here (and generally he has been less guilty as of late).

Quote from: Florestan on July 28, 2021, 12:26:06 AM
Thanks, John. Of those, I haven't heard the Tippett and Martinu works. The other ones are good choices indeed.

</end offtopic>

Oh, you must hear the Martinu, the final two movements are pure Czech dance party bliss.

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 20, 2021, 04:40:14 PM
Dvorak: Wind Serenade
Prokofiev: Lieutenante Kije Suite

I can kind of understand the others, but these I don't get (especially the Dvorak) unless you were abused while playing the music as a child.

Quote from: DavidW on July 22, 2021, 08:23:11 AM
Schubert's lieder... it is true that if I find a performance that I like then I love what I'm listening to!  But many performances just leave me cold.  I don't know why that is.

It's sung in some damn furrin' jibber-jabber.

I generally dislike having to listen to music with text in hand (or on the laptop).  But I feel a bit guilty if I'm listening only to "the sound it makes", as Thomas Beecham would say.

Quote from: Daverz on July 29, 2021, 04:06:06 PM
It's sung in some damn furrin' jibber-jabber.

I generally dislike having to listen to music with text in hand (or on the laptop).  But I feel a bit guilty if I'm listening only to "the sound it makes", as Thomas Beecham would say.

I feel ya!

So time to play the game:

Beethoven: Symphony No. 9.  I do enjoy it from time to time, but most recordings lose me with an interminably dull 3rd movement, and one has to be in a particular mood to tolerate the Finale.

Emperor Concerto.  I used to love this thing.  But I enjoy the first 3 piano concerto so much more.

Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 4.  Loud and obnoxious.

I'll admit that I used to enjoy the Elgar symphonies more than I do these days. 

I'm usually careful about "husbanding" my exposure to the big warhorses, but I think I did manage to wear out the Ravel-Mussorgsky Pictures.

But not enjoy Dvorak's Symphony No. 9?  Never!  Always thrilling in the right hands (try Lenny on Sony, for example.)

I'm leaving out a lot of big, important sacred Baroque things, big Victorian choral things, and a lot of opera, just because I'm simply unwilling to put the time in, usually, and it seems unfair to blame the music.

Quote from: Daverz on July 29, 2021, 03:57:15 PM
I can kind of understand the others, but these I don't get (especially the Dvorak) unless you were abused while playing the music as a child.

Actually, I've never been a fan of the Prokofiev. I do enjoy the Troika, nonetheless.

As to the Dvorak, I think it has to do with the fact that I don't enjoy wind music as much as I wanted. The other day I heard a performance under Hrusa, but I was underwhelmed.

Quote from: Daverz on July 29, 2021, 04:35:17 PM
So time to play the game:

Beethoven: Symphony No. 9.  I do enjoy it from time to time, but most recordings lose me with an interminably dull 3rd movement, and one has to be in a particular mood to tolerate the Finale.

Emperor Concerto.  I used to love this thing.  But I enjoy the first 3 piano concerto so much more.

Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 4.  Loud and obnoxious.

I'll admit that I used to enjoy the Elgar symphonies more than I do these days. 

I'm usually careful about "husbanding" my exposure to the big warhorses, but I think I did manage to wear out the Ravel-Mussorgsky Pictures.

But not enjoy Dvorak's Symphony No. 9?  Never!  Always thrilling in the right hands (try Lenny on Sony, for example.)

I'm leaving out a lot of big, important sacred Baroque things, big Victorian choral things, and a lot of opera, just because I'm simply unwilling to put the time in, usually, and it seems unfair to blame the music.

Even though I've listened to the Emperor Concerto many times, I can still tolerate it (the same goes for the Dvorak). It's been years since the last occasion when I heard the Ninth Symphony (Beethoven). I'm curious about how I'm gonna react the next time I give it another try.