It's time for yet another of the impulsive exercises in cruelty which made the Polling Station famous!
Rank the Beethoven concertos in order from your favorite to your least!
for me:
- love them-
piano 5
piano 4
- like them -
piano 1
triple
- meh/uneven (actually in both cases, bloated first movements which everyone plays way too slowly, but the second/third are great) -
piano 3
violin
- just kinda boring -
piano 2
Descending order:
Emperor
PC 4
Triple
PC 3
PC 2
not particularly fond of:
PC 1 (I know it's generally rated highly)
VC as PC
VC
Romanzen
Choral Fantasy
Early PC movements - Rondo etc.
5
3
4
Choral Fantasy
VC
Triple
1
2
PCs 3 and 4
VC
Triple
Choral Fantasy
PC 5
PC 6 (aka VC for piano)
PCs 1 and 2
The Triple Concerto and the Choral Fantasy are among my guilty pleasures.
1) Triple: no joke; I LOVE this work even though - or perhaps because - so many people are dismissive of it. Beethoven at his most sunny and generously tuneful!
2) PC 4
3) PC 5
4) VC
5) PC 3
6) PC 1
7) PC 2 (definitely my least favorite)
Top tier, can't choose between:
3, 4, 5
Middle:
1
Odd but interesting:
Triple
Modestly interesting but not much personality:
2
Weak, perhaps his single least interesting orchestral work:
Violin
4, 5 3, 1, 2, Triple, Choral Fantasy, VC.
4
5
3,1
2, triple, violin - need a bit help from enthusiastic players
(choral fantasia
romances)
Piano Concerto No. 5
Piano Concerto No. 4
Triple Concerto
Violin Concerto
Piano Concerto No. 3
Piano Concerto No. 1
Piano Concerto No. 2
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 22, 2021, 10:20:48 AM
Piano Concerto No. 5
Piano Concerto No. 4
Triple Concerto
Violin Concerto
Piano Concerto No. 3
Piano Concerto No. 1
Piano Concerto No. 2
That's very similar to my preferences:
PC4
PC5
VC
Triple Concerto
PC3
PC1
PC2I don't quite understand the general lack of appreciation for the
Violin Concerto. I think it has some stunning features (love that static first movement, where the music seems "not to go anywhere", and yet it does ;)). And the last movement is clearly the model for later works in the genre (which, despite being manifestly inferior —copies often are inferior to the original :D—, are widely acclaimed).
VC
Triple
Choral Fantasy
PC 2
PC 4
PC 5
PC 3
PC 1
Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2021, 11:13:16 AM
I don't quite understand the general lack of appreciation for the Violin Concerto
I don't either. And I'm equally astonished by the hatred toward PC 2. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2021, 11:18:18 AM
I don't either. And I'm equally astonished by the hatred toward PC 2. ;D
I should revisit
PC2.
I see you include the
Choral Fantasy... I thought about mentioning
Fidelio ;D (but I too like the
Fantasy quite a lot)...
Good evening,
Andrei!
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2021, 11:18:18 AM
I don't either. And I'm equally astonished by the hatred toward PC 2. ;D
No "hatred," but it's just a rather generic early work. As for the VC, "static first movement, where the music seems "not to go anywhere" sounds about right. ;D
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2021, 11:34:16 AM
No "hatred," but it's just a rather generic early work.
Maybe, but what an utterly charming one!
Quote
As for the VC, "static first movement, where the music seems "not to go anywhere" sounds about right. ;D
Why should good music always go to some place?
Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
Why should good music always go to some place?
Why not>? ;D ;D
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2021, 11:34:16 AM
No "hatred," but it's just a rather generic early work. As for the VC, "static first movement, where the music seems "not to go anywhere" sounds about right. ;D
Depends upon the interpretation.
Usually I don't participate in rankings of this kind, but:
Piano concerto 4
Piano concerto 2
Piano concerto 1
Piano concerto 3
Violin concerto
Piano concerto 5
Triple concerto
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2021, 12:00:58 PM
Why not>? ;D ;D
You can do better than that --- or can you? ;D ;D
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on December 22, 2021, 11:34:16 AM
No "hatred," but it's just a rather generic early work. As for the VC, "static first movement, where the music seems "not to go anywhere" sounds about right. ;D
I do think that contemporary performers are making the VC worse. The first movement is the problem for me as it is for you, but I did a quick look at track timings and the performances that I most happily tolerate - Milstein, Heifetz, Francescatti, Zehetmair, etc. - all clock in right at 21-22 minutes. The really excellent new Gil Shaham recording with chamber orchestra The Knights is also exactly 21' in the first movement. Contrast to Hahn and Batiashvili at 24', two recent DG recordings of not famous artists at 25', Dumay and Kyung Wha Chung 25', Swensen/Previn at 28', Serkin on piano 29'...
Of course the existence of a longer cadenza complicates this analysis a bit. But my personal suspicion (aided by Serkin/Ozawa being 29') is that modernist and contemporary music specialists see Beethoven's violin concerto as a kindred spirit work, if you play it glacially slowly and treat it like blobs of sound.
Quote from: Brian on December 21, 2021, 05:32:54 AM
- just kinda boring -
piano 2
I challenge you to a duel, sir!
5
4
3
VC
1
2
Choral Fantasy
Triple Concerto
Quote from: Brian on December 22, 2021, 04:39:17 PMThe first movement is the problem for me as it is for you, but I did a quick look at track timings and the performances that I most happily tolerate - Milstein, Heifetz, Francescatti, Zehetmair, etc. - all clock in right at 21-22 minutes.
Wolfsthal and Kopatchinskaja might be worth hearing.
My absolute favorite:
PC4
Love them:
PC3
PC5
Violin
Choral Fantasy (A guilty pleasure - I know a lot of people look down on it. There's a performance with Argerich and Ozawa on YouTube that I just adore!)
Like them:
PC1
PC2
Triple
PC3
Violin Concerto
PC 1
Triple
PC 2
I'm burned out on PC4 and don't find PC5 very interesting.
All five LvB PCs are excellent and the toss up in the rankings between PC1 and PC2 was purely arbitrary. I suppose, apart from 4 and 5, pick holes in all the other concertos but the bottom line is I enjoy listening to all of them.
1: Piano Concerto No. 4
2: Piano Concerto No. 5, Violin Concerto
3: Piano Concerto No. 3, Triple Concerto, Piano Concerto No. 1
4: Piano Concerto No. 2
Quote from: Todd on December 22, 2021, 05:00:50 PM
I challenge you to a duel, sir!
I will gladly be one of your asistants!
Quote from: Florestan on December 25, 2021, 12:37:10 PM
I will gladly be one of your asistants!
And I will gladly be a second for Brian.
The Lisiecki I listened to last night was the first recording I can remember which made PCs 1 and 2 into something interesting.
Even the Divine Martha can't keep them from being a bore.
Quote from: JBS on December 25, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
And I will gladly be a second for Brian.
The Lisiecki I listened to last night was the first recording I can remember which made PCs 1 and 2 into something interesting.
Even the Divine Martha can't keep them from being a bore.
I just love the 2nd but then again give me Mozart any time over Beethoven. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on December 25, 2021, 01:50:35 PM
I just love the 2nd but then again give me Mozart any time over Beethoven. ;D
Then get Lisiecki: he brings out the Mozartian similarities in PCs 1 and 2.
Quote from: JBS on December 25, 2021, 01:54:52 PM
Then get Lisiecki: he brings out the Mozartian similarities in PCs 1 and 2.
Thanks for the tip, I will.
Quote from: ritter on December 22, 2021, 11:13:16 AM
I don't quite understand the general lack of appreciation for the Violin Concerto.
I don't understand the dislike, either; although this only seems to be a forum thing (glitch in the matrix? 😁). I think it's a sublime work, complimentary to the Pastoral Symphony. Furthermore, the cadenza Beethoven wrote for the piano & orchestra transcription is another stroke of genius (it further elevates the work and highlights the ingenious use of timpani throughout) and I'm really happy it has found its way to performances of the violin concerto itself (most notably in the Kremer/Harnoncourt rendition).
Speaking of cadenzas, the third and most grand and elaborate cadenza Beethoven wrote for the First Piano Concerto is a great favourite. Medtner's cadenzas for the Fourth Concerto and Alkan's gargantuan cadenza for the first movement of the Third Concerto are also very close to my heart.
I've never counted the Choral Fantasia among the concerti, so I've omitted it from my list. I do love the work, though.
I used to vehemently dislike the Second Concerto. After years of background listening (mostly via complete concerto sets), my dislike has somewhat lessened. I now consider it an innocuous divertissement (at best). 🤷♂️
Complete ly agree about the violin Concerto, which I consider one of the great ones, although a rather particular one.
Piano Concerto No.4
Violin Concerto
Piano Concerto No.5
Piano Concerto No.3
Triple Concerto
Piano Concerto No.1
Piano Concerto No.2
Love them all, though, save the first two piano concertos, neither of which I'm terribly familiar with.
Quote from: Wanderer on December 25, 2021, 10:58:40 PM
Speaking of cadenzas, the third and most grand and elaborate cadenza Beethoven wrote for the First Piano Concerto is a great favourite.
I love the big huge cadenza option in the First. Any favorite recordings that use the Medtner and Alkan?
Quote from: Wanderer on December 25, 2021, 10:58:40 PM
I don't understand the dislike, either; although this only seems to be a forum thing (glitch in the matrix? 😁). I think it's a sublime work, complimentary to the Pastoral Symphony. Furthermore, the cadenza Beethoven wrote for the piano & orchestra transcription is another stroke of genius (it further elevates the work and highlights the ingenious use of timpani throughout) and I'm really happy it has found its way to performances of the violin concerto itself (most notably in the Kremer/Harnoncourt rendition).
I think Wolfgang Schneiderhan was the first to use the cadenza from the piano version. But unlike you I find the style of this cadenza unsuited for the violin concerto.
Quote from: Brian on December 27, 2021, 08:03:38 AM
I love the big huge cadenza option in the First. Any favorite recordings that use the Medtner and Alkan?
To my knowledge, there's unfortunately just one commercial recording of Beethoven's Fourth containing Medtner's cadenzas, ably performed by
Jerome Lowenthal on a double CD that also contains Fourth Concerto cadenzas by Brahms, Saint-Saëns, Clara Schumann, Rzewski, Busoni, von Bülow, Rubinstein, Godowsky and Dohnányi. Some are more successful than others, but Medtner's are indeed magnificent and linger in the memory for their particular insightfulness (and a quite potent visionary quality in the first movement), matching the work's ethos (even though the writing is definitely Medtnerian). The Fourth Concerto was a specialty of Medtner's in concert and it shows in the very inventive and imaginative ways he chose to manipulate and intertwine the work's themes - e.g. in the third movement cadenza I particularly enjoy the way he ruminates on themes from the second movement as well as on those from the third. The juxtaposition proves very powerful.
The Alkan cadenza has regrettably not yet been recorded (or recently performed at all) as part of an actual performance of the Third Concerto. [Too grand, too ambitious, too difficult, too bold (how can one not admire the moment the Fifth Symphony dauntlessly manifests itself!), too Alkanian? Who cares, it's the 21st century!]
However, Alkan's transcription for solo piano of the first movement of Beethoven's Third Concerto (cadenza included) has been electrifyingly recorded by
Marc-André Hamelin (on Hyperion) and more recently by
Leonardo Pierdomenico (also marvelous, on Piano Classics). Both are very highly recommended.