I had a very interesting exchange with
the new erato in another thread. This is what he wrote:
Quote from: The new erato on January 10, 2022, 12:08:49 AM
A far more interesting question is "what collection of classical music (I disregard other genres here) would you be happy with?".
For me; if I had a couple of Ockeghem masses, a couple of Handel operas, a small collection of Bach cantatas, 2 opuses of Haydn quartets, a couple of Mozart piano concertos, the late Beethoven quartets, some Brahms chamber music, some Schubertl lieder, a couple of Shostakovich concertos, one symphony each by Nielsen, Sibelius and Pettersson, a couple of discs each with select works of Debussy and Ravel, I think I would have a varied collection that would satisfy me.
Everything else would be strictly superfluous. Perhaps less interesting, but I could live happily without the rest of it. The money and time saved could buy me quite a lot of happiness in other areas of life,
I think the idea is interesting and worthy of its own thread. It might be a stimulating discussion even.
Have you ever considered downsizing your library only to the stuff you consider essential (from your on point of view, of course) and get rid of, or at least never or very rarely listen to, anything else? Do you agree in principle with the concept? If yes, what would that stuff be? If no, why?
Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2022, 06:27:45 AM
I had a very interesting exchange with the new erato in another thread. This is what he wrote:
I think the idea is interesting and worthy of its own thread. It might be a stimulating discussion even.
Have you ever considered downsizing your library only to the stuff you consider essential (from your on point of view, of course) and get rid of, or at least never or very rarely listen to, anything else? Do you agree in principle with the concept? If yes, what would that stuff be? If no, why?
I've thought about it, but then always back out at the last minute. I could definitely do some culling, though, but I'm just not sure what at the moment.
I feel like at some point I would to get down to a collection of < 200 discs, but not sure exactly how I would get there. I have so much music that I no longer listen to and really only listen to about 5% of my collection on a recurring basis.
The thing that keeps me from culling too much of my collection is the fact that things change over time (as they have) and likely may change again in the future.
If I was guaranteed on average 5 EUR/disc (which is about 5 times as much as realistic nowadays) without any work (like taking pictures and offering on Ebay or so) I might consider getting rid of a thousand discs because I have certainly more than I need. Both in duplication of repertoire and in discs I bought for a passing interest, for completeness or for having something like Ockeghem masses despite never listening to them (until now). This all was before youtube and streaming, so quite a bit is like having a copy of an encyclopedia of complete works of Shakespear or Goethe on the shelves, just in case you want to look up something.
But in the big picture, 1000 less would still be a large collection of several thousand discs with the necessary shelf space. Heck, even going down to what I'd find essential I'd have to keep around 1000 discs which is more than I had 20 years ago after 14 years of collecting.
As it is with used CDs being a hard sell even at giveaway prices, I only cull a little to stay within the space confines I have.
Quote from: OrchestralNut on January 10, 2022, 07:42:17 AM
I feel like at some point I would to get down to a collection of < 200 discs, but not sure exactly how I would get there. I have so much music that I no longer listen to and really only listen to about 5% of my collection on a recurring basis.
The thing that keeps me from culling too much of my collection is the fact that things change over time (as they have) and likely may change again in the future.
The problem with this is that even with music I haven't listened to in quite some time, I
might at some point circle back around to it and want to listen to it. This is one of the main advantages of having a large collection.
Absolutely I have thought about this, and should. For one thing, I am running out of shelf space, and for another, every time someone like our friend Hurwitz goes into one of his "However!" moments, the first thing I do is check YouTube to see if I can't download the "However!" (Often I can.) I think I have about 2500 CDs now, and I suspect I would be perfectly content with about 1000 or so. Do I really need a dozen versions of the Eroica? Do I really need my two CDs of Arnold Bax? A question not to be answered.
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2022, 09:15:17 AM
The problem with this is that even with music I haven't listened to in quite some time, I might at some point circle back around to it and want to listen to it. This is one of the main advantages of having a large collection.
Oh absolutely!
I'm pretty good at downsizing. Over the years I've gotten rid of hundreds of CDs, and I've only missed about 5 of them. However, this is an important point:
Quote from: Mirror Image on January 10, 2022, 09:15:17 AM
The problem with this is that even with music I haven't listened to in quite some time, I might at some point circle back around to it and want to listen to it. This is one of the main advantages of having a large collection.
It's fun to put on a disc I haven't listened to in 15 years. It's like hearing it for the first time, but with the advantage of already having the road map in my mind, i.e. knowing the basic things about it.
It also has the aspect of a nostalgia trip, plus I get to see if my attitude to the music has changed in the meantime.
There was a temptation to downsize when I had shelves groaning with CDs, boxes of CDs in the basement. Sometimes I regretted getting rid of something. Now I have a hard drive with between 2 and 3 TB of FLAC files (mostly rips from CDs, recently I have been adding lossless downloads). Of course I have multiple backups. Maybe I have some files I'll never get around to listening to again. So what? Hard disc space is cheap.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 10, 2022, 10:38:42 AM
Now I have a hard drive with between 2 and 3 TB of FLAC files (mostly rips from CDs, recently I have been adding lossless downloads). If course I have multiple backups. Maybe I have some files I'll never get around to listening to again. So what? Hard disc space is cheap.
Did you get rid of all your CDs?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 10, 2022, 10:32:02 AM
I'm pretty good at downsizing. Over the years I've gotten rid of hundreds of CDs, and I've only missed about 5 of them. However, this is an important point:
I also got rid of a few hundred CDs over the years, however the majority of them were recordings I replaced via boxes, different couplings or new remasterings.
I also bought a few CDs twice... and might get rid of them another time. My strategy now is to buy far less than in earlier times but sometimes the temptation is irresistible...
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 10, 2022, 10:32:02 AM
I'm pretty good at downsizing. Over the years I've gotten rid of hundreds of CDs, and I've only missed about 5 of them. However, this is an important point:
It's fun to put on a disc I haven't listened to in 15 years. It's like hearing it for the first time, but with the advantage of already having the road map in my mind, i.e. knowing the basic things about it.
It also has the aspect of a nostalgia trip, plus I get to see if my attitude to the music has changed in the meantime.
Yes, it is quite amusing how tastes change and develop. Sometimes I can't even keep track of what I like liked vs. disliked. :)
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on January 10, 2022, 10:48:32 AM
Did you get rid of all your CDs?
I have gotten rid of the majority of them. I still have various deluxe box sets that have booklets which are too hard to scan, or to pretty to throw away. The others that I retain hard copy of have been removed from their jewel cases and stored just with the booklets as ultimate backup, but I've largely gotten rid of those. Keeping them became untenable when I had to relocate several times. I think I have thrown at least 2,000 classical CDs into dumpsters over the years.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 10, 2022, 06:27:32 PMI think I have thrown at least 2,000 classical CDs into dumpsters over the years.
:o I don't think I've ever willingly thrown a CD away unless, of course, it was defective.
The irony of life is you have to live to learn how you should have lived, but maybe life would become pointless if we knew how to do the correct choices? So, we need to buy 1000 CDs to know which 100 would have been enough.
I am really bad at getting rid of stuff, because the stuff I own, no matter how useless, feels part of me. I need to convince myself to throw away stuff I know I will never need again need in my life. I have thought about downsizing my music collection, but I don't know how I can do such a thing. For example I have 5 CDs of Weiss' lute music on Naxos. I almost
never listen to those CDs. Whenever I do, I am surprised how little I care about the music. I much rather listen to J. S. Bach's works transcribed to guitar than this "king of lute". I could get rid of them and keeping just one disc would definitely be enough!
The cold fact is I would have enough superb classical music for the rest of my life getting rid of everything else than my Elgar and J. S. Bach collections, but it has been necessary to listen to tons of composers and works to know these two composers are my absolute favourites.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 10, 2022, 06:27:32 PM
I think I have thrown at least 2,000 classical CDs into dumpsters over the years.
Wouldn't it be more ecological and sensible to donate the CDs to libraries for free?
Correct. In order to find the minimum you can live with, you need to listen to and discard tons of stuff. Ironucal.
But one does not have to confine oneself to the minimum, one can just keep the stuff ;)
At least if it had not gone totally out of hand and one remains, as most classical listeners, able to afford enough living space for a few thousand CDs or records or books or whatever.
It's never been necessary for me to downsize, since I rarely buy CDs or physical media at all. As such I've never given much thought to the "essentials"; even the music I put on my phone for mobile listening (which means almost no really quiet music, and no duplications) comes to approximately 2900 hours. I end up taking the view that either all of it is essential, even the Wagner Ring Cycle I listened to once in ~2015 and never again, or none of it is, and technically I could just live with the silence, it just wouldn't be as fun.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2022, 01:50:14 AMWouldn't it be more ecological and sensible to donate the CDs to libraries for free?
So they could throw them in the garbage for me?
Quote from: 71 dB on January 11, 2022, 01:50:14 AM
Wouldn't it be more ecological and sensible to donate the CDs to libraries for free?
Once CDs have been ripped, there are only two ethical alternatives - keep them, or destroy them. Donating them is just piracy - and to make matters worse you involve the recipient too.
Quote from: aukhawk on January 13, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Once CDs have been ripped, there are only two ethical alternatives - keep them, or destroy them. Donating them is just piracy - and to make matters worse you involve the recipient too.
Well, yes, there's that too.
Quote from: aukhawk on January 13, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Once CDs have been ripped, there are only two ethical alternatives - keep them, or destroy them. Donating them is just piracy - and to make matters worse you involve the recipient too.
This might be the ethical situation but unlike for software, where copies have to be destroyed, for music the *legal* situation apparently differs between countries. When such a discussion arose about 10 years ago, I did quite a bit of reading on the topic and in Germany it is perfectly legal to sell or donate CDs and keep private copies of the music. You cannot *sell* copies, of course. It might be fishy or a loophole, especially if one does this intentionally and systematically but the legal situation seemed pretty clear.
Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2022, 06:27:45 AM
Have you ever considered downsizing your library only to the stuff you consider essential (from your on point of view, of course) and get rid of, or at least never or very rarely listen to, anything else? Do you agree in principle with the concept? If yes, what would that stuff be? If no, why?
For me "ESSENTIAL" simply is too much, and few is not enough. I can't answer this, sorry! ;D :D
I did the culling already and maybe in time a few will be added, but still there are 4000+ essential CD'S. I gave all those CD'S away, no way one could sell them these days.
I will try to buy as little as I can, and will certainly not buy multiple sets with the same music, Tchaikovsky excepted.
Quote from: absolutelybaching on January 14, 2022, 02:00:08 AM
Well, I'm not in Germany (nor the US, come to that), and you are right that different jurisdictions can see things in wildly different ways.
Here's what seems to be true for the US (https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-music/rip-then-sell-your-cds/)...and I'm willing to bet that the exact same situation prevails in the UK, too (especially now as we're anxious for a free trade deal, which means RIAA will want to have its voice heard!).
Of course, I'm skipping over the High Court decision that made even ripping CDs in the UK illegal in 2015! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-33566933)
Interesting that it was an EU directive that the High Court struck down. An EU directive that, according to that news report, "made it legal to make back-ups for personal use". I don't know how you can claim your rip is a backup of something when the original is no longer in your possession, is my point -and that would seem to be the EU (and thus German) position. I'd definitely appreciate a German law citation/reference on the matter, though.
According to the article below this does not need to be EU-uniform. Unfortunately, both the article and most of what I remember mostly focussed on "private copies" (that are not strictly only "back up copies") and the debate in the early 2000s, ca. 15 years ago. Back then it was mostly about giving private copies to friends which was judged to be within the rights of fair use in small numbers (and strictly uncommercial). As I said, because of debates in German fora at that time where people insisted that keeping copies was illegal I read this up on several juristic sites and the case seemed surprisingly clear, that it was in fact legal or maybe a loophole. Maybe because it seems to simply follow from the right to make a few private copies that you can even give one to a friend. When you later decide to sell the original, who is to forbid your friend to gave the burned copy back to you?
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatkopie
I certainly think it would be fishy and unethical to do this with 100s or 1000s of disc, especially if one bought stuff intentionally to "rip and sell". Although to put it in perspective, one would usually lose money, because used (even like new) discs are so cheap, so it is hardly a business model.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on January 11, 2022, 07:52:12 AM
So they could throw them in the garbage for me?
One used CD I bought online is from the New York Public Library (Mid-Manhattan Branch Library, 455 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10016). This CD wasn't thrown in the garbage. It was sold away for reasons I don't know.
My idea of downsizing is to stop getting any new CD or boxset at all. But I can't do it. The pile of CDs or boxsets that I still have to listen to is growing at an alarming pace. I mean, do I really need another cycle of Mozart's PCs given that I haven't yet listened to all the ones I already have? Do I really need another set of Chopin's complete works given that ditto? Do I really need another set of Schubert's piano sonatas, ditto?
Well, heck, yes I do. ???
And at least I don't have to worry about space. I went full digital a few years ago and never looked back. My musical library is stored on three laptops and two external HDDs which can easily be contained in a briefcase. I stored my physical CDs and LPs in the attic of my in-laws house a few years ago and never wiped the dust off them. :D
Quote from: 71 dB on January 14, 2022, 04:30:01 AM
One used CD I bought online is from the New York Public Library (Mid-Manhattan Branch Library, 455 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10016). This CD wasn't thrown in the garbage. It was sold away for reasons I don't know.
Here in DK, official libraries and even the Danish National Radio Broadcast started selling their LP collections decades ago, now it has been their CDs as well, for many years. The materials have very prominent registration labels, making them much less attractive, in spite of the very low prices (say 0.6 - 1.2 Euros). I bought a few, maybe 15-20 years ago, but stopped, and don't follow that market any longer. There's probably only little left.
Quote from: 71 dB on January 14, 2022, 04:30:01 AM
One used CD I bought online is from the New York Public Library (Mid-Manhattan Branch Library, 455 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10016). This CD wasn't thrown in the garbage. It was sold away for reasons I don't know.
Ah, the main branch. I used to walk past it all the time, it is just down the block from Grand Central Terminal. The one with the two enormous statues of lions out front.
Good that they had the wherewithal to sell them. My local library didn't want them. .
Quote from: aukhawk on January 13, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Once CDs have been ripped, there are only two ethical alternatives - keep them, or destroy them. Donating them is just piracy - and to make matters worse you involve the recipient too.
I'd wager it would be pretty hard to find a person in 2022 who gives a damn. And ethically this seems fine to me. Ripping and then
selling, that's a different story, but donating? C'mon.
Quote from: MusicTurner on January 14, 2022, 08:56:16 AM
Here in DK, official libraries and even the Danish National Radio Broadcast started selling their LP collections decades ago, now it has been their CDs as well, for many years. The materials have very prominent registration labels, making them much less attractive, in spite of the very low prices (say 0.6 - 1.2 Euros). I bought a few, maybe 15-20 years ago, but stopped, and don't follow that market any longer. There's probably only little left.
Buying ex-libris LPs can be a real crap shot. Normally, the popular ones got lots of play and weren't, shall we say, always treated the best?
My local library accepts donations of books, magazines, DVDs and CDs; they then sell them (at very modest prices). The monies go towards helping purchase new acquisitions.
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2022, 10:45:44 AM
Buying ex-libris LPs can be a real crap shot. Normally, the popular ones got lots of play and weren't, shall we say, always treated the best?
My local library accepts donations of books, magazines, DVDs and CDs; they then sell them (at very modest prices). The monies go towards helping purchase new acquisitions.
PD
Totally agree, one would really have to inspect the LPs, also the classical ones ... I've got less than a dozen of them, I think. It's interesting that your libraries also function a bit like antiquarians - it doesn't happen here, where, generally, most libraries have downsized the old media and books, now relying more on social events, internet cafes, and the possibility to reserve any materials from other libraries throughout the country (which is free, though). But still, a lot of the exhibited material appears rather random and even poor. I used to frequent them a real lot, but now I've got my own stuff in stead. Of course, there are still also specialized, high-quality research libraries, and a few, better equipped central ones.
Quote from: MusicTurner on January 14, 2022, 10:59:46 AM
Totally agree, one would really have to inspect the LPs, also the classical ones ... I've got less than a dozen of them, I think. It's interesting that your libraries also function a bit like antiquarians - it doesn't happen here, where, generally, most libraries have downsized the old media and books, now relying more on social events, internet cafes, and the possibility to reserve any materials from other libraries throughout the country (which is free, though). But still, a lot of the exhibited material appears rather random and even poor. I used to frequent them a real lot, but now I've got my own stuff in stead. Of course, there are still also specialized, high-quality research libraries, and a few, better equipped central ones.
Oh, yes! I always inspect them (though haven't seen LPs for sale there recently). :)
Wouldn't your libraries keep historical and rare items like books on local history and have someone who specializes in it (if they are large enough and have the funds to afford someone like that....someone who knows a lot about the local and regional history...also helping in genealogical research?)? I've noticed that there are more things available online like e-books and digital versions of magazines. And, yes, they've expanded things around here like adding in: free wi-fi, instruments to borrow in some of them, book groups, etc. Lucky you that you can borrow (and for free) books, etc. from throughout your whole country! We don't have quite that scope (though we are larger of course ;) ), but we do have borrowing systems (for free) within a decent area and you can pay to expand that (at least a certain bit as far as I know).
PD
I've been taking books and CDs to the Oxfam and Mind charity shops locally, especially if I find that I have three copies of the same CD ::)
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2022, 11:37:10 PM
I've been taking books and CDs to the Oxfam and Mind charity shops locally, especially if I find that I have three copies of the same CD ::)
That's our problem, except with books!
As far as downsizing music is concerned, once we solved the problem of storage by moving to digital and streamed media, the requirement dissipated. I doubt I will ever lose the desire or capacity for new music, so although I will always revisit favourites, I can't see I will want to narrow my world.
Quote from: vandermolen on January 14, 2022, 11:37:10 PM
I've been taking books and CDs to the Oxfam and Mind charity shops locally, especially if I find that I have three copies of the same CD ::)
Whoopsie! :-[ I know, it's hard to keep up with everything--particularly when the same recordings come out on different labels, or are remastered, or they keep changing the danged artwork!
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2022, 12:00:25 PM
Oh, yes! I always inspect them (though haven't seen LPs for sale there recently). :)
Wouldn't your libraries keep historical and rare items like books on local history and have someone who specializes in it (if they are large enough and have the funds to afford someone like that....someone who knows a lot about the local and regional history...also helping in genealogical research?)? I've noticed that there are more things available online like e-books and digital versions of magazines. And, yes, they've expanded things around here like adding in: free wi-fi, instruments to borrow in some of them, book groups, etc. Lucky you that you can borrow (and for free) books, etc. from throughout your whole country! We don't have quite that scope (though we are larger of course ;) ), but we do have borrowing systems (for free) within a decent area and you can pay to expand that (at least a certain bit as far as I know).
PD
Yes, most libraries here keep such collections of some local history, for example the Frederiksberg library, a town-and-municipality-within-Copenhagen, but the most detailed material in such matters are often at the local historical archives, partly run by volunteers and associations, they exist in a ton of communities and are a font of such sources, incl. collections of photographs, postcards, pamphlets and a lot of other stuff. There are also a lot of highly specialized libraries, especially in the capital. Basically, all library book collections here are 'reservable' from a central database called www.bibliotek.dk, and you can 'order' them to be delivered at your local library and borrow them for a month - unless it's valuable, or very rare, or has restricted usage (that can be the case for example with university institute libraries). I'm also registered with about 15 of my almost 40 small, modest magazine articles in that general system.
Concerning the expanded library functions, a lot of libraries are also open say until midnight, or around the clock, a lot of the time unstaffed, where you use your social security card and maybe a code to open the door. They also provide office hours for municipal consulting and services. This is a in a way good, due to easy access, but at the same time, the traditional library functions and knowledge, including staff, have been downsized, and libraries can become a sort of home-away-from-home for people with a social need, or social problems, leaving employees to be also social workers and consultants in municipal matters ...
The most unique libraries I've seen was a tiny, frescoed chapel in the French village of Saorge (https://www.fred-38.fr/album-photos/art-sacre-dans-les-alpes/06-alpes-maritimes/saorge/), and a sort of lovely, traditional Pippi-Longstocking villa, complete with antique furniture, in a Swedish village (it's a local initiative; the interiors are lovely & there's a cafe https://www.sundborn.com/biblioteket ) ... overall, it's good, and a necessity, that libraries are kept alive, in spite of the digitalization and individualizing trends ...
Are your libraries financed via taxes, or is it a combination with private donations also, or are they mainly privately funded? Private donations are a rare thing here, I think. It's not a subject I know much about, though of course the US is known for the 'presidential libraries' and the Morgan Library Museum, for example :)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 14, 2022, 10:45:44 AM
Buying ex-libris LPs can be a real crap shot. Normally, the popular ones got lots of play and weren't, shall we say, always treated the best?
PD
And sometimes only certain movements were played, so the vinyl is worn extremely unevenly. Back in my music school undergraduate days, students would go to the music library to listen to assigned pieces and the library technician would set the needle on the lp which was heard through headphones at a listening station. I'm certain there were many records that were never played, except for one particular side and band that was requested over and over. That system is probably why I've found used records from college libraries tend to be in better shape than from general libraries.
Quote from: Szykneij on January 15, 2022, 08:09:14 AM
And sometimes only certain movements were played, so the vinyl is worn extremely unevenly. Back in my music school undergraduate days, students would go to the music library to listen to assigned pieces and the library technician would set the needle on the lp which was heard through headphones at a listening station. I'm certain there were many records that were never played, except for one particular side and band that was requested over and over. That system is probably why I've found used records from college libraries tend to be in better shape than from general libraries.
I find box sets are a good shout. Also with composers the more obscure the better which is what I'm looking for anyway.
Quote from: Irons on January 19, 2022, 11:41:16 PM
I find box sets are a good shout. Also with composers the more obscure the better which is what I'm looking for anyway.
Shhh....don't let the secret out! ;) ;D
On a serious note, often I find that to be the case--except though with opera sets. It seems that I often find a scratch on the big arias tracks. :(
PD
At some point, I need to seriously consider downsizing. When I was teaching, I bought many CDs I thought I should have for educational purchases that were seldom listened to. Some of these weren't even opened. I've also purchased in the past some large lots, including a case of Arabesque CDs that now list at pretty high prices.
I maintain a couple of tables at antique/collectible shops where good classic/rock and popular CDs sell very well at $3.00+ each. I'd love to get that much for my classical culls, but the demand isn't there. I don't have the same attachment to CDs as I do to my vinyl recordings which take up way more space and for which there is even less demand. They would be the last to go.
Quote from: Szykneij on January 21, 2022, 06:19:35 AM
At some point, I need to seriously consider downsizing. When I was teaching, I bought many CDs I thought I should have for educational purchases that were seldom listened to. Some of these weren't even opened. I've also purchased in the past some large lots, including a case of Arabesque CDs that now list at pretty high prices.
I maintain a couple of tables at antique/collectible shops where good classic/rock and popular CDs sell very well at $3.00+ each. I'd love to get that much for my classical culls, but the demand isn't there. I don't have the same attachment to CDs as I do to my vinyl recordings which take up way more space and for which there is even less demand. They would be the last to go.
Have you tried listing on eBay before Tony? You could do a bit of research to see what kind of prices specific CDs are listed for and give it a go? You would need though to deal with the hassle and expense of shipping though. I believe that ebay now collects sales taxes on your behalf, but you should look into that yourself. You might also consider doing lots?
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 21, 2022, 06:40:32 AM
Have you tried listing on eBay before Tony? You could do a bit of research to see what kind of prices specific CDs are listed for and give it a go? You would need though to deal with the hassle and expense of shipping though. I believe that ebay now collects sales taxes on your behalf, but you should look into that yourself. You might also consider doing lots?
PD
I really don't want the hassle of listing, photographing, packing, shipping, etc. that Ebay requires. My nephew is an Ebay dealer who knows what he's doing, and after picking his brains, I decided it wouldn't be worth it. I agree that lots would be the best way to go.