(This thread is inspired by two separate ongoing discussions in other threads.)
We all know what a comfort zone is, musically speaking.
What do you think, staying mostly within one's comfort zone is bad or good? Discuss.
For many of us if we didn't push ourselves past our comfort zone we wouldn't be classical music listeners. But I think that constantly pushing to hear new things is not rewarding for me. I won't like something just because it is novel or different. I like to stay in my comfort zone and sometimes venture out. With the right music listened to at exactly the right time, that venture out of the zone can be very rewarding. But I can't force myself to like things. And I'm a person. Most of the time I'm not excited to try new things and not receptive to it. It is more about knowing when I am feeling receptive to new experiences and immediately jump on it in that window.
This is impossible to answer in general. For an analogue case: If someone's comfort zone is one's apartment and venturing beyond to run errands etc. causes strong discomfort, this person is likely suffering some psychological disorder.
Unless there is a civil war outside, then it's perfectly rational or it might in fact be more daring than rational to even stay in this apartment and a rational person would long have fled to safer grounds ;)
I am not against extending a comfort zone but I am not seeking out uncontrolled discomfort for its own sake.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 08:37:03 AM
What do you think, staying mostly within one's comfort zone is bad or good? Discuss.
Bad. It's the mark of a boring, conceited, self satisfied, closed minded, arrogant person.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 08:37:03 AMWhat do you think, staying mostly within one's comfort zone is bad or good? Discuss.
Depends on the person. Some people are content to stay in their comfort zones and it works for them. I get bored sticking with the same old thing and crave novelty, even if I end up disliking something new.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2022, 09:07:44 AMBad. It's the mark of a boring, conceited, self satisfied, closed minded, arrogant person.
That's too harsh. It's fine to be content with the same old thing.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 11, 2022, 09:05:28 AMDr. Peter Weller says it best, or at least that is who I heard it from, "You don't know what you like, you like what you know."
He also famously said "No matter where you go, there you are."
Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2022, 09:07:44 AM
Bad. It's the mark of a boring, conceited, self satisfied, closed minded, arrogant person.
Says the guy whose least favorite composers are
Beethoven and
Liszt...
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 09:20:09 AM
I get bored sticking with the same old thing
Says the guy whose favorite pastime is listening to
Beethoven's piano sonatas again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again...
(Sorry,
Mandryka and
Todd --- just couldn't resist)
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 09:26:54 AMSays the guy whose favorite pastime is listening to Beethoven's piano sonatas again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again...
That reinforces my point. If I were to stick to listening to Alfred Brendel and Claudio Arrau and claiming that they were the best available options, it would exclude a vast array of valid and superior interpretations. Sticking to old recordings from decades ago is boring and diminishes the value of the greatest music.
Plus, I listen to other stuff.
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 09:20:09 AM
It's fine to be content with the same old thing.
I'm not sure I agree. Staying within the comfort zone, in an area as lively as music, is either a mark of profound incuriosity or pathological timidity or . . . or what?
It's like people who never travel, who have no interest in otherness because they are so happy where they are. I can't help but see it as a failing.
But I can see that constant seeking the new is also a failing,
Ohne Ruh', und suche Ruh' , a Winterreise.
Maybe we need to do an Aristotle, find the mean between restless quest of otherness and contentment with the same.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2022, 09:40:49 AM
I'm not sure I agree. Staying within the comfort zone, in an area as lively as music, is either a mark of profound incuriosity or pathological timidity or . . . or what?
If some people like the same old stuff, more power to them. If others are more adventurous, more power to them. Psychoanalysis of others' listening preferences does not seem to be a good use of time.
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 09:43:57 AM
If some people like the same old stuff, more power to them. If others are more adventurous, more power to them. Psychoanalysis of others' listening preferences does not seem to be a good use of time.
Post edited with some further thoughts while you were responding.
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 09:34:47 AM
That reinforces my point. If I were to stick to listening to Alfred Brendel and Claudio Arrau and claim that they were the best available options, it would exclude a vast array of valid and superior interpretations. Sticking to old recordings from decades ago is boring and diminishes the value of the greatest music.
That's fair enough --- although I have never ever made the point that one should stick to old recordings from decades ago, much less claimed that they were the best available options.
And yet --- let's say you number your recordings of Beethoven's complete piano sonatas cycles in alphabetical order by performer, and let's say you come up with 250 entries. Let's say, furthermore, that I play you blindly #15 and #236. Are you able to blindly identify the respective performers?
QuotePlus, I listen to other stuff.
I know.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2022, 09:40:49 AM
I'm not sure I agree. Staying within the comfort zone, in an area as lively as music, is either a mark of profound incuriosity or pathological timidity or . . . or what?
Or being content with the thousands of pieces one already knows because many of them are inexhaustible, or one feels one has only scratched their surface and expects to listen to them as more satisfying than trying to get into Mascagni or Zarzuelas or Feldman?
How frequently do you listen to what's new in Gangsta rap or Appalachian folk? Do you feel not adventurous enough, if you ignore (as I do) these kinds of music?
Quote from: philoctetes on June 11, 2022, 09:36:44 AM
Not that they need defending, as neither of your comments hold any weight, but if you'd look at the the New Releases and "New" Music Log threads, you'd see both of those posters have some of the most varied tastes on this forum.
Well, you've been away from this board for a (rather long) while and as such unaware of my relationship with those posters. ;)
Quote from: philoctetes on June 11, 2022, 09:52:43 AM
Why should you ignore any type of music?
Because, uhmmmm... one cannot like everything and one is under no obligation to like everything?
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 09:57:36 AM
Because, uhmmmm... one cannot like everything and one is under no obligation to like everything?
There's a book which you'd enjoy I think, which is about this. Quite stylish, well written, interesting ideas, musically aware too.
Boussole by Mathias Enard.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 09:47:38 AMAnd yet --- let's say you number your recordings of Beethoven's complete piano sonatas cycles in alphabetical order by performer, and let's say you come up with 250 entries. Let's say, furthermore, that I play you blindly #15 and #236. Are you able to blindly identify the respective performers?
I have 121 cycles. If you were to put #15 on (Anton Kuerti), I would be able to identify him. If you put on #121 (Yves Nat), I most likely would be able to, but perhaps not. For most cycles in the third and fourth tiers, there is a very good chance I would not be able to identify them. For the best cycles - for Kempff or Fischer or Pienaar - there is a
much higher probability that I would be able to identify them. One of the traits that make them my favorites is their distinctiveness. That's why I keep listening to new cycles, you see.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 11, 2022, 09:52:43 AMWhy should you ignore any type of music?
Exactly.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 09:57:36 AM
Because, uhmmmm... one cannot like everything and one is under no obligation to like everything?
Liking and disliking is different from ignoring. If one ignores rap and hip-hop altogether, one misses out on
Fear of a Black Planet. That's bad.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2022, 10:01:43 AM
There's a book which you'd enjoy I think, which is about this. Quite stylish, well written, interesting ideas, musically aware too. Boussole by Mathias Enard.
Thanks for the tip.
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 10:03:34 AM
I have 121 cycles. If you were to put #15 on (Anton Kuerti), I would be able to identify him. If you put on #121 (Yves Nat), I most likely would be able to, but perhaps not. For most cycles in the third and fourth tiers, there is a very good chance I would not be able to identify them. For the best cycles - for Kempff or Fischer or Pienaar - there is a much higher probability that I would be able to identify them.
I'll take your word for that.
QuoteLiking and disliking is different from ignoring. If one ignores rap and hip-hop altogether, one misses out on Fear of a Black Planet. That's bad.
Are you going to tell me that if I'll never ever listen to
Fear of a Black Planet I'll miss something akin to the
Hammerklavier? If yes, then I'll tell you that no music, be it Beethoven or rap, is essential, and that one can live a wholly satisfying and worthwile life without ever listening to both.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 10:12:23 AMAre you going to tell me that if I'll never ever listen to Fear of a Black Planet I'll miss something akin to the Hammerklavier? If yes, then I'll tell you that no music, be it Beethoven or rap, is essential, and that one can live a wholly satisfying and worthwile life without ever listening to both.
Your second sentence is objectively true and has nothing to do with your question.
Fear of a Black Planet is a masterpiece of its kind. If you are content to not listen to it, that is fine. Given cultural differences between the US and Romania there are parts of it that would not be as salient to you, anyway. Plus, the passage of time has changed the overall salience of the recording.
Psychologists measure openness to new experiences as a spectrum, and as a fundamental part of one's personality. Willingness to try new things correlates with a lot of different things - political views, lifestyle, food preferences, travel. I also remember that the online dating website OKCupid found that one of the top three questions most likely to predict a successful romantic match was, "Do you enjoy watching horror movies?"
Personally of course I fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Some days, I want to seek out something new and have a new experience. Some days, I want to listen to old favorites again. Same goes for my taste in food, books, drinks, TV, etc. to varying degrees. For whatever reason, I want TV to be more comforting/familiar than books. Maybe because I am trained to dedicate so much more attention to reading.
Of course there are people who stay in their comfort zones on
everything. They never travel AND only eat meat and potatoes AND don't listen to new music AND vote for politicians who promise to prevent change. I don't really take a moralistic view on this, don't think they are failures/disgusting, but I do wonder how to encourage a little bit more openness. Is this a personality trait that can be changed, or nudged, or moved one or two ticks down the spectrum? Is it a failure of their education to instill curiosity? Is it parenting? Who knows ;D
Pragmatically, there are limits to how much we should attempt to change others or push them out of comfort zones. I have a friend who married a guy who is kind of dumb. She met him when they were very young so he is a "comfort zone" guy, and certainly dumber than she is. But she's very happy and never complains. I'll never in my life tell her that he's kind of dumb. It may be a shame she didn't do better or seek out other guys, but it's a happy relationship, and there is no justification for trying to harm it based on a theoretical argument about how some of us think others of us should lead their lives.
Quote from: DavidW on June 11, 2022, 08:44:03 AM
For many of us if we didn't push ourselves past our comfort zone we wouldn't be classical music listeners. ...I can't force myself to like things. And I'm a person. Most of the time I'm not excited to try new things and not receptive to it. It is more about knowing when I am feeling receptive to new experiences and immediately jump on it in that window.
Just want to say I appreciate the wisdom here.
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 10:17:58 AM
Given cultural differences between the US and Romania there are parts of it that would not be as salient to you, anyway.
I'm sure this is the case --- and I have my own example(s):
Enescu's
First Rhapsody is certainly not as salient to you as it is to me, nor is his
Impressions d'enfance.
By the way, once you get past the "good or bad" debate, this is a really great idea for a thread. It is interesting to see how different people approach their comfort zones, how much they stay inside or outside of them, and how they feel about them.
Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:25:46 AM
It is interesting to see how different people approach their comfort zones, how much they stay inside or outside of them, and how they feel about them.
This is exactly what I meant.
Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:23:09 AMWillingness to try new things correlates with a lot of different things - political views, lifestyle, food preferences, travel.
I'd like to see the academic findings here, and also how "openness" is defined. I am naturally skeptical of such studies, at least as it pertains to individuals. Group behavior is something else.
Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:23:09 AM
Willingness to try new things correlates with a lot of different things - political views, lifestyle, food preferences, travel.
Politically-wise, I am a conservative liberal.
Lifestyle-wise, I'm happily married with child.
Food-wise, I like pretty much everything I've tasted so far.
Travel-wise, I've visited most European countries.
Music-wise, my comfort zone is 1700-1900.
Correlate that! :D
Quote from: Todd on June 11, 2022, 10:29:24 AM
I'd like to see the academic findings here, and also how "openness" is defined. I am naturally skeptical of such studies, at least as it pertains to individuals. Group behavior is something else.
Well, of course, academic findings are paywalled, but here's one that claims it would have related info. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780080970868250721
(Ultimately, I just went to Google the same way anyone else in this thread would. I also found this "Psychology Today" (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/openness) article suggesting that somebody has studied/linked the trait to "more imaginative sexual fantasies.")
Quote from: philoctetes on June 11, 2022, 10:57:32 AM
To get most academic articles, you can simply use sci-hub.st, or if you need one, just email me, as I am a professor, and likely have access to that journal through my university.
The study is quite solid though. :)
Here's a more recent open access study (2021): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1002/per.2271
This one isn't as solid, but is also from 2021: https://www.scitepress.org/Papers/2018/100031/100031.pdf
Oh fun, thanks! Opening these to read this afternoon.
My brother and girlfriend are at major research institutions too and have made standing offers to forward me studies/papers. I just don't put a lot of work into internet arguments ;D
Quote from: Brian on June 11, 2022, 10:50:13 AMUltimately, I just went to Google the same way anyone else in this thread would. I also found this "Psychology Today" (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/openness) article suggesting that somebody has studied/linked the trait to "more imaginative sexual fantasies."
I took a quick glance at the Psychology Today link, and a couple of the lines did not instill much confidence, such as:
"People with low levels of openness prefer familiar routines, people, and ideas; they can be perceived as closed-minded."
"Levels of openness do vary by location. Within the U.S., people on the coasts are typically rated as more open than those in the middle of the country. Likewise, people who live on the coasts are more liberal, and people who live in the midwest are more conservative."The longer study philoctetes linked may be more helpful.
There is an joke that unfortunately only works in German but you guys probably have all been so eager for years to expand the comfort zone that major European languages should long have been conquered, because it's hard to fathom what one might miss if one cannot read the major works of Goethe or Schiller, understand the lyrics of the romantic lieder and Wagner operas. How could one remain seriously restricted in his aesthetic experiences for lack of language skills?
"Wer für alles offen ist, ist nicht ganz dicht." He who is open to everything, is not quite tight. "nicht ganz dicht sein" meaning "to have lost some marbles", "a screw loose".
(I don't put much stock into the psychological research mentioned above but I would not be surprised if there was a point when "openness to new experiences" transitions into a pathological condition, of course almost any trait can be exaggerated into a pathological condition (this is also the core of the Aristotelian idea of virtue being "golden mean" between two vices mentioned above) but clearly the powers dominating our media and culture have some idea which traits should be exaggerated and which ones ridiculed or pathologized (more openness probably means open to more consumer goods, so let's promote it).
Cognitive capacity, time and funds are limited. If I lose an hour trying to be open to something I am bored or repulsed by, I cannot listen to Beethoven during this hour or do something else I enjoy. If I am repulsed by something after a few seconds, like rap, I will not make effort. Not everything is worth an effort, even less an extended effort. One will not always realize quickly every case of wasted effort but having a developed taste is roughly equivalent to being reasonably quick in picking, choosing and avoiding.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2022, 01:08:42 PMIf I am repulsed by something after a few seconds, like rap, I will not make effort. Not everything is worth an effort, even less an extended effort. One will not always realize quickly every case of wasted effort but having a developed taste is roughly equivalent to being reasonably quick in picking, choosing and avoiding.
People can rationalize anything, like dismissing entire genres or categories based on the most fleeting of experiences. That's fine.
When I started listening to classical music I listened mostly to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms. They were new to me. As I became familiar with the principal works of these composers I branched out to other composers (Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc) and to a wider variety of works by the composers I already knew. It didn't stop me from returning to my core composers and works. When I look at my habits now, nothing has changed. I have composers and works that I return to with a feeling that I am revisiting things I have already internalized, and I listen to new composers and new works. It's just that my footprint of core composers and works is bigger, and music outside my core is farther out in the weeds of the classical repertoire. But I have always mixed revisiting familiar things with trying out new things. The idea that I "should" go outside my "comfort zone" of familiar composers and works strikes me as absurd. I do it because I enjoy it.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2022, 01:08:42 PM
Cognitive capacity, time and funds are limited. If I lose an hour trying to be open to something I am bored or repulsed by, I cannot listen to Beethoven during this hour or do something else I enjoy. If I am repulsed by something after a few seconds, like rap, I will not make effort. Not everything is worth an effort, even less an extended effort. One will not always realize quickly every case of wasted effort but having a developed taste is roughly equivalent to being reasonably quick in picking, choosing and avoiding.
This pretty much sums up my own position.
Comfort comes in degrees. I wonder if I can define a chain of musics which starts with Mozart and ends with Lachenmann or Xenakis, each link in the chain giving rise to a small, maybe almost imperceptible, change in comfort.
I've purposely avoided Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et. al. My stance against the "collective wisdom" of many long-time listeners who revere these composers and tell me I should, too, hasn't changed at all. Quite frankly, I don't care who the "important" composers are and never will. The first two composers I seriously got into were Bartók and Ives, which are definitely not composers most people would recommend checking out first, but I was drawn to their music. And it's this attitude that has lead to many great discoveries. I personally believe that listeners should travel outside of their comfort zones more often because there are an inordinate amount of composers who I feel deserve as much attention as the well-established composers that everyone knows and you won't find this out if all you do is "play it safe". I wouldn't have found Weinberg or Zemlinsky for example if all I did was listen to the composers that I love all the time --- not there would be anything wrong with this, but, for me, I'm a naturally curious person and I had to find out what else is out there. But, we're all different and we all have found composers that we love, it's just that some people stop exploring at a certain point while others enjoy finding new composers. I suppose nowadays I would fall somewhere in the middle: I like my comfort zone, but I do get the itch to find new composers as well. Oh and FYI, I do love Beethoven in particular his late SQs and symphonies, but really as far back as I go with classical music is Berlioz. :)
Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2022, 06:25:30 AM
Comfort comes in degrees. I wonder if I can define a chain of musics which starts with Mozart and ends with Lachenmann or Xenakis, each link in the chain giving rise to a small, maybe almost imperceptible, change in comfort.
Sort of like the proverbial frog in a kettle. I can't say, I haven't reached Xenakis yet. :)
Mozart a little night music
Mozart Don Giovanni overture
Mozart 608
Beethoven 133
Liszt big bad sonata
Messiaen 20 regards
Lachenmann serynade
Easy peasy.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2022, 06:29:21 AM
Sort of like the proverbial frog in a kettle. I can't say, I haven't reached Xenakis yet. :)
It's easier with Xenakis. You're a yank, so you probably don't know The Goons and Spike Milligan. The Ying Tong Song. You'll love It. Listen first to this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=33-fVsL5Kdc
And now try this extraordinary piece of stochastically composed late Xenakis
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmi2EVb7kQU
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 11, 2022, 10:57:25 PM
When I started listening to classical music I listened mostly to Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and Brahms. They were new to me. As I became familiar with the principal works of these composers I branched out to other composers (Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc) and to a wider variety of works by the composers I already knew. It didn't stop me from returning to my core composers and works. When I look at my habits now, nothing has changed. I have composers and works that I return to with a feeling that I am revisiting things I have already internalized, and I listen to new composers and new works. It's just that my footprint of core composers and works is bigger, and music outside my core is farther out in the weeds of the classical repertoire. But I have always mixed revisiting familiar things with trying out new things. The idea that I "should" go outside my "comfort zone" of familiar composers and works strikes me as absurd. I do it because I enjoy it.
Exactly.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2022, 06:26:44 AM
I've purposely avoided Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et. al.
Whatever the rationale, it's just your loss. While of course you're at liberty to listen to (or ignore) what composers you please soever, there is in fact no inherent virtue in contrarianism: what matters is the result. Ask the guy on Wall Street.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2022, 06:57:07 AM
Whatever the rationale, it's just your loss. While of course you're at liberty to listen to (or ignore) what composers you please soever, there is in fact no inherent virtue in contrarianism: what matters is the result. Ask the guy on Wall Street.
It's not contrarianism, Karl. I've avoided these composers with the exception of Beethoven, because I'm not drawn to their music, so it's not my loss at all. I explore and listen to music I want and when I want. Nobody will tell me otherwise.
I think I've mentioned this before, but there are certain works (Schubert quartets, Beethoven late quartets, Bach cantatas, Mahler 9, Shostakovich 15, probably some others) which I have deliberately avoided because I want there to be something great and transportive to hear for the first time when I'm older.
Of course, if I go deaf tomorrow, I will regret that choice a lot!
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 07:21:27 AM
I think I've mentioned this before, but there are certain works (Schubert quartets, Beethoven late quartets, Bach cantatas, Mahler 9, Shostakovich 15, probably some others) which I have deliberately avoided because I want there to be something great and transportive to hear for the first time when I'm older.
Of course, if I go deaf tomorrow, I will regret that choice a lot!
As long as you're happy listening to the music you choose to listen to and gain emotional and intellectual gratification from it, then there's no need for regret. I don't regret not exploring Bach or Mozart. There are several members here that don't care for their music or, in my case, respect it more than love it.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 10:12:23 AM
Are you going to tell me that if I'll never ever listen to Fear of a Black Planet I'll miss something akin to the Hammerklavier? If yes, then I'll tell you that no music, be it Beethoven or rap, is essential, and that one can live a wholly satisfying and worthwile life without ever listening to both.
I can't speak for Fear of a Black Planet as it's a bit before my time and I haven't heard it enough to know it well enough. I think pop music can not only connect with people more but also be more relatable, like Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly on systemic racism and slavery. Or Lauryn Hill's Miseducation of Lauryn Hill and the struggles of a pregnant black woman. In that regard albums like this (also ones like NIN's The Downward Spiral on suicide, Bob Dylan, Nick Drake, etc) can be far more meaningful than the Hammerklavier, where you have to understand the genius in Beethoven's fugal writing in the Adagio otherwise it might just come across as a virtuosic piano work.
And I say this as someone that has the Hammerklavier among my all time favorite piano works, and listens to 90% or more classical.
edit: Fear of a Black Planet is from 1990, for some reason I thought it was from the Run DMC era which I find too cheesy. I will have to give this a more serious listen. Proof of me not stepping out of
my comfort zone :laugh:
Quote from: hvbias on June 12, 2022, 07:48:41 AMI think pop music can not only connect with people more but also be more relatable
This is a fact. Classical music is irrelevant to almost all of humanity.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 07:21:27 AM
I think I've mentioned this before, but there are certain works (Schubert quartets, Beethoven late quartets, Bach cantatas, Mahler 9, Shostakovich 15, probably some others) which I have deliberately avoided because I want there to be something great and transportive to hear for the first time when I'm older.
Of course, if I go deaf tomorrow, I will regret that choice a lot!
That's been my approach to Brahms late piano works.
I just started listening to them. I still have the violin sonatas in reserve.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2022, 06:59:47 AM
It's not contrarianism, Karl.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2022, 06:26:44 AM
I've purposely avoided Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et. al. My stance against the "collective wisdom" of many long-time listeners who revere these composers and tell me I should, too,
Erm,
John, purposely avoiding composers of whom the "collective wisdom" thinks highly is as near a class of contrarianism as no matter. But let it go.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 07:50:53 AM
This is a fact. Classical music is irrelevant to almost all of humanity.
True, but this might be an exposure thing. Lets lump Fear of a Black Planet, To Pimp a Butterfly, and Miseducation of Lauryn Hill as conscientious hip hop, which to anyone that has given the music a chance should make sense even if you're the polar opposite demographic. But it also relies on the listener knowing English, which is not true of most of the world. Would playing one of these albums or say Debussy's Clair de lune have a greater effect on most of the world? I don't know, Copland said the earliest human music is rooted in rhythm and this would be true for those three albums, so maybe they would still prefer them.
Quote from: hvbias on June 12, 2022, 08:10:30 AMTrue, but this might be an exposure thing. Lets lump Fear of a Black Planet, To Pimp a Butterfly, and Miseducation of Lauryn Hill as conscientious hip hop, which to anyone that has given the music a chance should make sense even if you're the polar opposite demographic. But it also relies on the listener knowing English, which is not true of most of the world. Would playing one of these albums or say Debussy's Clair de lune have a greater effect on most of the world? I don't know, Copland said the earliest human music is rooted in rhythm and this would be true for those three albums, so maybe they would still prefer them.
A huge proportion of the population everywhere in the world has access to western classical music now, and it is still irrelevant to them. It is irrelevant to the vast majority of people in the west. The overwhelming majority of people just don't care about classical music. It is boring to most people.
I like the title, Fear of a Black Planet. Just tangentially.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 08:15:00 AM
A huge proportion of the population everywhere in the world has access to western classical music now, and it is still irrelevant to them. It is irrelevant to the vast majority of people in the west. The overwhelming majority of people just don't care about classical music. It is boring to most people.
True but irrelevant on a classical music forum.
Quote from: Florestan on June 12, 2022, 08:29:22 AM
True but irrelevant on a classical music forum.
But not to this thread.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 08:31:24 AM
But not to this thread.
Honestly, I fail to see the relevance even for this thread, where people with a keen interest in classical music discuss the comfort zone in classical music. That the vast majority of people have no use for classical music is, well, irrelevant.
Quote from: Florestan on June 12, 2022, 08:35:00 AM
Honestly, I fail to see the relevance even for this thread, where people with a keen interest in classical music discuss the comfort zone in classical music. That the vast majority of people have no use for classical music is, well, irrelevant.
In one of those moods again?
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 12, 2022, 08:02:51 AM
That's been my approach to Brahms late piano works.
I just started listening to them. I still have the violin sonatas in reserve.
Very glad to not be alone on this quirk.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2022, 08:10:23 AM
Erm, John, purposely avoiding composers of whom the "collective wisdom" thinks highly is as near a class of contrarianism as no matter. But let it go.
I think it's a question of causality. If he is avoiding Bach, Mozart, etc.
because they are so highly esteemed. Or if he has given them a fair shot and simply not liked them much. Of course, his post implied both. But I think that is just because his character includes a reflexive rejection of authority and the counsel of others.
A friend of mine has a rule for eating which is very relevant to the "comfort zone" discussion. It is: "I'll try any food three times. Once to see if I like it. Twice just in case it was cooked wrong the first time. And the third time to be certain. Any food except brains. I won't eat brains." Wise words!
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 08:38:21 AM
In one of those moods again?
Pot calling the kettle black.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 07:21:27 AM
I think I've mentioned this before, but there are certain works (Schubert quartets, Beethoven late quartets, Bach cantatas, Mahler 9, Shostakovich 15, probably some others) which I have deliberately avoided because I want there to be something great and transportive to hear for the first time when I'm older.
Of course, if I go deaf tomorrow, I will regret that choice a lot!
I find this quite interesting! I wonder if I would have felt the same only hearing these as well as Brahms late piano works now (I'm in my late 30s) or at a later age. I have to rely on old, not so good memory but I think I was quite moved by most of these even in my 20s. Certainly I can remember the first time I heard op. 111 which was simply devastating.
There was a heated debate on whether pianists should be recording a cycle of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas when they are in their 20s and 30s (sparked by Igor Levit's cycle getting praise from critics) or should it marinate over decades of
life experience (not piano playing experience).
I personally think it makes little difference as long as you can nail the late sonatas that is to the taste of the listener.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 12, 2022, 06:26:44 AM
I've purposely avoided Bach, Mozart, Beethoven et. al.
Maybe step out of your comfort zone and give them a shot then! 8)
Quote from: hvbias on June 12, 2022, 08:45:08 AMThere was a heated debate on whether pianists should be recording a cycle of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas when they are in their 20s and 30s (sparked by Igor Levit's cycle getting praise from critics) or should it marinate over decades of life experience
Where did this heated debate take place?
Of course pianists in their teens (Melodie Zhao) and twenties (eg, Friedrich Gulda, HJ Kim) should record the sonatas if they want and feel they are ready. The idea that people in their 30s may not be ready due to age and "life experience", whatever that means, is ridiculous on its face. The results can be great, good, or mediocre, just like with pianists of any age. And it is crucial to remember that pianists' techniques decline with age. Similarly, Bruckner can be conducted by men or women under the age of 70.
HV - I don't even mean that, necessarily - it's not that I haven't reached the requisite age needed to understand them more deeply. As a college kid I only listened to the adagio of Bruckner 7, because I didn't like the fast parts. (This is a big thing with literature though...there are definitely writers I've tried and been unready for *cough* Proust *cough*.) It's just that I love really connecting with and exploring something new, hearing an amazing work for the first time. So kinda decided to save some of those first times as treats for later.
Quote from: hvbias on June 12, 2022, 08:45:08 AM
There was a heated debate on whether pianists should be recording a cycle of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas when they are in their 20s and 30s (sparked by Igor Levit's cycle getting praise from critics) or should it marinate over decades of life experience (not piano playing experience).
Well that since seems like a stupid debate since Beethoven himself was in his 20s when he wrote his early sonatas which are all considered masterpieces. And what about Schubert? That was a young man that wrote some of the most poignant, emotional works ever. Not every pianist is Kempff and not every composer is Carter. Young musicians can and will do amazing things.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 09:16:12 AMIt's just that I love really connecting with and exploring something new, hearing an amazing work for the first time. So kinda decided to save some of those first times as treats for later.
That's sensible. I have not consciously saved any repertoire until later in life, though I have listened to almost no baroque opera, and very little Italian opera up through the mid-19th Century, Rossini excepted. Perhaps those time periods will yield the most wonderful operas of all and I will thank myself for putting them off until my dotage. Or not.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 12, 2022, 09:26:40 AM
Not the exact debate, but what do you think of Historical Tempo Reconstruction movement? I ask this here because this seems like something that will be very much out of many folk's comfort zones, as it most definitely "reimagines" classical music in a manner that might strike the ear as odd.
Here is Beethoven's Hammer played in full: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFYdLxDcF90
AuthenticSound is amusing because he has devoted an entire channel to fighting swift tempi! I found that channel not long after I watched a documentary on Klemperer who late in life took slow tempi, but delivered some very moving performances!
Quote from: philoctetes on June 12, 2022, 09:26:40 AMNot the exact debate, but what do you think of Historical Tempo Reconstruction movement?
I've not read about it, but looking at the timing of the linked performance, it is clearly wrong from a historical perspective. Beethoven himself stated that the sonata should be played in thirty-some minutes (I can't remember the exact duration). I tried the first minute of the opening movement and then jumped to the Adagio, and the performance does not work for me. I may take a listen at some point, when I can free up eighty-three minutes. I'm pretty sure I'm more inclined to revisit Frederic Rzewski's sixty-six minute take more often, though for much different reasons.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 09:22:18 AM
That's sensible. I have not consciously saved any repertoire until later in life, though I have listened to almost no baroque opera, and very little Italian opera up through the mid-19th Century, Rossini excepted. Perhaps those time periods will yield the most wonderful operas of all and I will thank myself for putting them off until my dotage. Or not.
Come to think of it, I haven't heard any complete Rossini operas either. But that is likely to change very soon as for whatever reason I'm really in tune with what he's doing in the overtures right now.
Quote from: DavidW on June 12, 2022, 09:20:33 AM
Well that since seems like a stupid debate since Beethoven himself was in his 20s when he wrote his early sonatas which are all considered masterpieces. And what about Schubert? That was a young man that wrote some of the most poignant, emotional works ever. Not every pianist is Kempff and not every composer is Carter. Young musicians can and will do amazing things.
I am not disagreeing.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 09:12:15 AM
Where did this heated debate take place?
Of course pianists in their teens (Melodie Zhao) and twenties (eg, Friedrich Gulda, HJ Kim) should record the sonatas if they want and feel they are ready. The idea that people in their 30s may not be ready due to age and "life experience", whatever that means, is ridiculous on its face. The results can be great, good, or mediocre, just like with pianists of any age. And it is crucial to remember that pianists' techniques decline with age. Similarly, Bruckner can be conducted by men or women under the age of 70.
SymphonyShare. But the demographic would also be ones that would want to obsessively hear the June 4, 1943 AM radio broadcast concert of conductor X and everything else they recorded. This was only brought up as something interesting to me as I conflated Brian's thought on saving these mature works until he is older (which he has cleared up) to people thinking that one must be a mature (in age) musician before they can record some of these late works.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 09:16:12 AM
HV - I don't even mean that, necessarily - it's not that I haven't reached the requisite age needed to understand them more deeply. As a college kid I only listened to the adagio of Bruckner 7, because I didn't like the fast parts. (This is a big thing with literature though...there are definitely writers I've tried and been unready for *cough* Proust *cough*.) It's just that I love really connecting with and exploring something new, hearing an amazing work for the first time. So kinda decided to save some of those first times as treats for later.
Got it, it sounded like you were saving them to be able to appreciate them more at an older age (
"I have deliberately avoided because I want there to be something great and transportive to hear for the first time when I'm older.").
Not arguing with any of your reasons, to me it is a depressing thought thinking of missing out on 15-20 years of not listening to some of my favorite works from your list, Brahms' late piano music (as it was mentioned on that page) or some works I'm naming as I have them in recent memory - Rachmaninoff's All Night Vigil, Herreweghe conducting Schütz's Musikalische Exequien, etc. All of that more mature style.
I completely get that wanting to really connect with and explore something new. I suppose with the time constraint issue that was also discussed on the previous page I made more time to obsessively hear various performances like the Brahms late piano works than explore more daring repertoire like Cage and Feldman which I've only come to really appreciate in the last couple of years.
It is definitely also true that things I heard 5-15 years ago and set aside as "not my thing" become discoveries later in life when they finally do become "my thing" (the best example recently being Bartók).
That is another reason to leave your comfort zone: because we actually don't know where our comfort zones end. They may be wider than we think.
My comfort zone shrinks with each passing year as part of an ongoing process of cognitive and psychological deterioration, likely associated with aging. It's probably been years since I had any interest in attending new music concerts or had any interest in hearing music by composers outside a small circumscribed group of five or ten. I can't deny that I was healthier when I wasn't limited to a comfort zone, and I tend to extrapolate this to others as well, and assume that sticking to what you already like is a sign of deterioration in other people as well, but this is probably unfair. There are people who thrive in their comfort zones, rather than continually finding the margins of those zones shrinking into nothingness and restricting them further and further as time goes on. It's clearly a very individual thing.
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2022, 08:10:23 AM
Erm, John, purposely avoiding composers of whom the "collective wisdom" thinks highly is as near a class of contrarianism as no matter. But let it go.
Perhaps you should've let it go, Karl. I expressed how I felt and my reasoning for following my own path. I'm proud that I did, too. I have no regrets for the musical choices I have made. I currently have a pool of maybe 100 composers from which I can draw from and this enough to keep one busy for 30 lifetimes.
Quote from: amw on June 12, 2022, 11:47:52 AMIt's clearly a very individual thing.
This is true. As I have aged, my comfort zone for music has expanded. My comfort zone in other areas has gotten smaller, though - in food, for instance, or movies. I can't watch one more super hero movie, for instance.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 12:30:24 PM
This is true. As I have aged, my comfort zone for music has expanded. My comfort zone in other areas has gotten smaller, though - in food, for instance, or movies. I can't watch one more super hero movie, for instance.
This would be a fun thread or a fun digression in this one. My comfort in food and music has expanded dramatically while my range of alcohol, TV, books, etc has shrunk.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 12:51:55 PMThis would be a fun thread or a fun digression in this one.
Good idea.
Music – expanded
TV – expanded
Travel – expanded
Photography (activity/subjects/gear [esp vintage]) – expanded
YouTube time sink – expanded, alas
Apparel – expanded
Non-book reading – expanded
Books – same
Coffee – same
Non-music/non-photography art – same
Movies – contracted
Food – contracted
Alcohol – contracted (ie, I know what I like)
Stereo gear – contracted (ie, I know what I like)
Yardwork – contracted (I didn't think it was possible; I was wrong)
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 12:51:55 PM
This would be a fun thread or a fun digression in this one. My comfort in food and music has expanded dramatically while my range of alcohol, TV, books, etc has shrunk.
For me all those have increased but not necessarily dramatically.
Food: I've always been open to that, I'm the type that is likely to order something new or cook a new recipe.
Music: I push myself to sometimes listen to pop music as that is outside my comfort zone. Most classical is in my comfort zone.
TV: thanks to streaming and better shows I've done much more genre hopping than I used to do.
Books: I occasionally push myself to read classics or nonfiction as I usually don't. I read in most genres. But never romance, but I can see myself giving it a shot at least for novelty. Booktube has certainly helped open my eyes, especially with people like Steve Donoghue who reads anything and everything.
I think Mirror Image has a point. He's under no obligation whatsoever to like, or even to try liking, Mozart and Beethoven --- just as I am under no obligation whatsoever to like, or even to try liking, the Second Viennese School. There's too much music, too little time and money is in short supply. One makes decisions and choices based on one's own taste. There's no one single right way to do it, or rather, there are as many right ways as listeners.
Quote from: Brian on June 12, 2022, 12:51:55 PM
This would be a fun thread or a fun digression in this one. My comfort in food and music has expanded dramatically while my range of alcohol, TV, books, etc has shrunk.
Taking as reference 30 years ago (I will turn 50 coming December):
Music - expanded
Literature - ditto
Painting - ditto
Movies - contracted; I've never been much of a cinephile anyway but today I can live for weeks or even months without watching any movie
Food - expanded
Alcohol - pretty much stayed the same (I found what I like rather early and stuck to it ever since)
As for TV, I wish I could drastically cut the amount of time I spend watching it: 90% of what I see is drivel.
Quote from: Florestan on June 13, 2022, 03:02:06 AM
I think Mirror Image has a point. He's under no obligation whatsoever to like, or even to try liking, Mozart and Beethoven --- just as I am under no obligation whatsoever to like, or even to try liking, the Second Viennese School. There's too much music, too little time and money is in short supply. One makes decisions and choices based on one's own taste. There's no one single right way to do it, or rather, there are as many right ways as listeners.
Absolutely and I didn't mean to come off sounding like a contrarian as Karl rightfully pointed out. And for the record, I do like Beethoven rather a lot these days even if he didn't quite make much of an impression on me earlier on. I don't think I could live without his late SQs for example. Some of the greatest music ever composed. Love his symphonies and concerti, too. I do like the early Romantics, too like Berlioz and Mendelssohn. Berlioz is actually in my "Top 10" favorite composers.
Interestingly enough, even the comfort zone can have a few uncomfortable spots. Much as I tried, I never warmed up to Bruckner, his music does absolutely nothing for me, I find it intolerably turgid, overblown and boring (save the Fourth). Ditto for Wagner. And yet, their lifespan (or is it lifetime?) fall squarely within my comfort zone.
Quote from: Florestan on June 13, 2022, 06:26:57 AM
Interestingly enough, even the comfort zone can have a few uncomfortable spots. Much as I tried, I never warmed up to Bruckner, his music does absolutely nothing for me, I find it intolerably turgid, overblown and boring (save the Fourth). Ditto for Wagner. And yet, their lifespan (or is it lifetime?) fall squarely within my comfort zone.
I love both Bruckner and Wagner, but I don't listen to them too often. If one is under a time constraint, neither composer will be an ideal listen.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 13, 2022, 06:31:26 AM
I love both Bruckner and Wagner, but I don't listen to them too often. If one is under a time constraint, neither composer will be an ideal listen.
I also find that regardless of the time and leisure needed, I am not always into "intense" music. If pieces are both long and intense like Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner, they need special occasions... Applies for me even to late Beethoven and Schubert where it is a bit mitigated that not all pieces are so long and they are chamber music, so not as loud...
This is of course mainly a "problem" of recordings. A live concert or opera is and was usually rare and special enough to be in the state of mind to appreciate e.g. Wagner (although his operas are so long that they are also strenuous in the theater).
Quote from: Jo498 on June 13, 2022, 07:17:03 AM
I also find that regardless of the time and leisure needed, I am not always into "intense" music. If pieces are both long and intense like Mahler, Bruckner, Wagner, they need special occasions... Applies for me even to late Beethoven and Schubert where it is a bit mitigated that not all pieces are so long and they are chamber music, so not as loud...
This is of course mainly a "problem" of recordings. A live concert or opera is and was usually rare and special enough to be in the state of mind to appreciate e.g. Wagner (although his operas are so long that they are also strenuous in the theater).
This is certainly true, too. For me, it's all about mood or whatever I'm currently wanting to hear in the moment. I do like listening that offers contrasts. For example, I'll listen to a work from Penderecki and then turn around and listen to a Debussy solo piano work. It's always a good thing to mix things up and this will further engage the listener and keep them on their toes.
Cross-posted from the recently blown away thread:
Quote from: Florestan on June 13, 2022, 07:23:54 AM
Honestly, during this bloody pandemic years and this bloody Russian invasion of Ukraine the Late Classical / Early Romantic era has been the one I've enjoyed the most. Its essentially cheerful and life-affirming nature, tinged with just the right amount of melancholy, nostalgic or sad overtones, its formal and emotional balance, its making no heavy demands on the listener's part and its unassumingly and unpretentiously offering a welcome respite from the stress-and-storm of daily life make it the ideal listening for me. In a world replete with suffering, violence and incertitude, this joyful, genial and reliable music is exactly what I need to preserve my sanity.
I under the sentiment, Andrei, but sometimes I need to vent and I feel that some intense, aggressive music helps me get this out of my system. It's actually rather therapeutic.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 13, 2022, 07:30:16 AM
I under the sentiment, Andrei, but sometimes I need to vent and I feel that some intense, aggressive music helps me get this out of my system. It's actually rather therapeutic.
Oh, I'm sure it is. Fight fire with fire, right? :)
Music - expanded some, contracted some. I probably expanded most between my mid-20s and mid-30s when I tried to get a bit into Jazz and Indian/Persian/some other World music but in the last 10 years I concentrated again on classical music. And within classical music I also came to the conclusion that a lot of obscure composers/works are so for good reasons ;)
Literature - similarly; when I was young I took on "challenges", like Ulysses, not anymore.
Painting - Not sure; probably contracted. I went to museums and exhibitions including modern/avantgarde stuff a lot as teenager and in my 20s (I had a friend living near Cologne that has Museum Ludwig etc.). Not so much anymore and I think I'd be very picky about a lot of art after the early 20th century, i.e. I have become more conservative in visual arts.
Movies - was never interested all that much, don't like the people and the popcorn smell, so while I like the big screen and think there are lots of movies that cannot be properly appreciated on a small screen, but that's what I do anyway, if I watch them at all. I have not been to a movie theatre for more than a decade; I used to go somewhat frequently in my 20s but mostly on dates ;)
Quote from: Jo498 on June 13, 2022, 08:16:40 AM
Music - expanded some, contracted some. I probably expanded most between my mid-20s and mid-30s when I tried to get a bit into Jazz and Indian/Persian/some other World music but in the last 10 years I concentrated again on classical music.
Well, my music comfort zone expanded strictly within the "classical music" realm. I lost interest in any other type of music 25 years ago and never recovered it. That being said, while driving in Bucharest I listen to nothing on car radio except a radio station called "Romantic FM" which features "romantic" "pop" music from 25 years ago and earlier, not only English/US but also Spanish, Italian and French --- and honestly, the latter three are much more to my liking than many of the English/US ones. :D
QuoteAnd within classical music I also came to the conclusion that a lot of obscure composers/works are so for good reasons ;)
Yes, absolutely.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 13, 2022, 08:16:40 AM
Movies - was never interested all that much, don't like the people and the popcorn smell, so while I like the big screen and think there are lots of movies that cannot be properly appreciated on a small screen, but that's what I do anyway, if I watch them at all. I have not been to a movie theatre for more than a decade; I used to go somewhat frequently in my 20s but mostly on dates ;)
My latest "sortie" to a movie theatre was on June, 1st (International Children's Day, quite popular in Romania) when my son took me, my wife and his godparents to a cartoon movie called "Bad Guys". It was not bad but too long. :D
99% of my movie-watching is on Netflix.
Quote from: Todd on June 12, 2022, 09:35:38 AM
I've not read about it, but looking at the timing of the linked performance, it is clearly wrong from a historical perspective.
Absolutely. Think of it this way: back then concerts usually featured two symphonies, two instrumental concerts (the movements of which were often splitted and interspersed), several solo instrumental pieces and several vocal numbers. Had they been taken at such slow speeds, and taking into account the breaks, the concerts would have started at 7 PM and ended at 7 AM. ;D
If anything, I suspect the tempo back then was generally swifter than today, at least in non-vocal music.
I had never really serious interest in "pop" (rock, wave whatever) music. I mostly ignored this as a teenager. I dabbled a bit with jazz a few years after I began listening to classical and I listened to some popular music for social reasons but rarely got a CD. I have maybe 50-70 CDs with Jazz, Pop/Rock and 60s Folk music as well as some Klezmer and Indian/Persian classical (compared to >4000 classical).
But the Indian or Persian classical music is a pretty good case for me that it can be just too much work to expand the "comfort zone". This music does not sound offensive to me but because of the different tuning systems it sounds always like slightly out of tune. Then the typical pieces are 10-30 min long improvisation on their traditional patterns (whatever the technical names are). It can be atmospheric once but eventually I am bored and have to decide to leave it or to do a lot of listening and reading to get into it, so it doesn't sound like pointless out of tune noodling. And I am just not sufficiently entranced by the music to spend so much time and effort. A few months ago I accidentally got a disc of "Sufi" world music. This was similar, just more grating and less relaxing, I listened at most twice and then gave it away. It would be similar for a lot of avantgarde Western music, I fear. It's like having to learn Russian to better appreciate Dostoevsky, most people cannot expend such an effort, unless they are extraordinarily talented or wanted to learn Russian anyway.
Quote from: Jo498 on June 13, 2022, 08:51:55 AM
I had never really serious interest in "pop" (rock, wave whatever) music. I mostly ignored this as a teenager.
The only real, keen, committed interest I ever had besides "classical music" was on heavy metal, go figure! I grew my hair long, wore leather jackets and boots and was a dedicated fan of
Metallica and
Manowar --- and all this was taking place a few years after discovering "classical music", more precisely during my university years. After I graduated, my interest in heavy metal dwindled more and more until it faded away for good. I haven't played my heavy metal cassetes or CDs since I can't remember when, nor do I feel any need to hear this kind of music again.
Péchés de jeunesse :D
Quote from: Florestan on June 13, 2022, 07:51:46 AM
Oh, I'm sure it is. Fight fire with fire, right? :)
Well, the composer's music releases the emotion so I don't have to. ;)
Revisiting the Historical Tempo Reconstruction site mentioned earlier, I decided against 106 and instead opted for the just shy of twenty minute Op 78: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAkSw3-hhP0
Not unexpectedly, it is just way too slow and is almost unlistenable. I know Beethoven had hearing issues, but nothing that would lead to this.
It turns out that according to Alberto Sonna, Schubert, too, meant to have all of his piano music played as though someone just learning the instrument would take a shot, including a fifty-one minute Wanderer Fantasie, and an over hour long D899. Even Tzimon Barto would raise an eyebrow at that timing.
As far as my musical comfort zone is concerned, l essentially enjoy what I've been enjoying for decades, and rely upon the occasional happy accident to expand the parameters.
For instance, in 2003 a friend purchased the soundtrack to the film, O Brother, Where Art Thou?, and we relaxed with it for part of a lazy summer afternoon. I was surprised to find myself enjoying the folk/bluegrass/ country offerings on the CD, and since then have remained open to the artists associated with the film.
And just a few years ago, l stumbled across Roy Orbison and Queen, and am enjoying each in their fashion.
( Ha! As l completed the above, the sound system in this restaurant began playing Queen's Crazy Little Thing called Love. )
Florestan one of the best European and a Latin cousin in language, Deprofundis agree , we all have confort zone and phases, I use to be i nsuper modernism , now I evolve out of it, I don't know why, perhaps I have T-Rex DNA im prehistoric ancestry in Francia and Murcia?
Good know so yes I am compelled to listen to ''alte musik''. more and more digging gregorian and various chants of years 1000, the deep end of classic far ancient lore, anyone ever think of making and album whit all Petrus DE Cruces atributated music, I beleive there is not much but perhaps this could make a full short cd has I speak of his output.
So this is my confort food in a way yeah Deprofundis squatting year 1000 time travel happen.
Quote from: Florestan on June 11, 2022, 08:37:03 AM
(This thread is inspired by two separate ongoing discussions in other threads.)
We all know what a comfort zone is, musically speaking.
What do you think, staying mostly within one's comfort zone is bad or good? Discuss.
Neither. It depends entirely what you, as a listener, want out of music. The fact that what gives you satisfaction is different to what gives someone else satisfaction is a large part of why a wide variety of music exists.
Quote from: Florestan on June 12, 2022, 08:35:00 AM
Honestly, I fail to see the relevance even for this thread, where people with a keen interest in classical music discuss the comfort zone in classical music. That the vast majority of people have no use for classical music is, well, irrelevant.
Hmm. You didn't actually specify that it was the comfort zone in classical music.
It is kind of funny in a way to have a discussion about 'comfort zone' that can only stay within classical music, where all of the participants feel reasonably comfortable...
I gradually expand my comfort zone - six years ago for classical music it was nothing whatsoever.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 15, 2022, 08:24:11 PMIt is very, what's the word ... eccentric doesn't seem right (maybe, cultish).
The word you're looking for might be "charlatan". Hey, more power to him. I plan on revisiting the Schubert at some point to see how painful it is to hear. Barto's Schubert was one of the few on ClassicsToday to receive a 1 for artistic quality, so this may be a negative value. (Barto backs up his bizarre conceptions with superb playing.)
Quote from: philoctetes on June 15, 2022, 08:24:11 PMI didn't know who Tzimon Barto was, so I went and looked him up, and I will say I am a big fan of his, if not just for the hair:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41LioP3SaBL._SX355_.jpg)
The 80s was the hair decade.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 16, 2022, 07:38:30 AMHmmm. I don't think that is the right word, as I believe he is being authentic and sincere; he just holds onto a reality that the rest of us (save his mentor?) live in.
Fair enough. Misguided true believers are out there.
Barto is an acquired taste to be sure, and one must be willing to accept idiosyncratic and self-indulgent playing. Sometimes it is magnificent. I suggest adding Russell Sherman to your list. He can evoke very negative responses as well.
Quote from: LKB on June 14, 2022, 12:42:12 PM
As far as my musical comfort zone is concerned, l essentially enjoy what I've been enjoying for decades, and rely upon the occasional happy accident to expand the parameters.
For instance, in 2003 a friend purchased the soundtrack to the film, O Brother, Where Art Thou?, and we relaxed with it for part of a lazy summer afternoon. I was surprised to find myself enjoying the folk/bluegrass/ country offerings on the CD, and since then have remained open to the artists associated with the film.
Yes, excellent soundtrack and a very entertaining movie (one of the few films I enjoy re-watching.) Shortly after the film came out, I had the opportunity to see Dan Tyminski perform live. Prior to the movie, I was unaware of who he was.
I'm curious if those who choose "bad" regarding comfort zone extend their opinion to genres outside of classical, or limit themselves to new discoveries and challenges within the classical realm.
Interesting thread.
For myself, I'm not sure I really have a comfort zone. There are a core of composers who are important to me, but I feel 'comfortable' with most music.
There are areas of music to which I rarely listen because they have little/zero appeal for me, but I don't feel in any sense 'uncomfortable' with them other than being bored. If I only listened to composers or areas of music which I know and like, I'd feel very claustrophobic, it would be like being confined to the house. I enjoy exploring the unknown, whether or not I end up liking it, it's exciting, and I feel very fortunate to live in a time when the magic of streaming makes such explorations almost limitless in scope.
I get a very different kind of feeling from rock music than the one I get from classical. It's an apples/oranges kind of situation, perhaps even a turnip/banana one. All kinds of music appeal to me at certain times though, but the majority of my listening is classical.
Quote from: Iota on June 16, 2022, 08:31:50 AM
Interesting thread.
For myself, I'm not sure I really have a comfort zone. There are a core of composers who are important to me, but I feel 'comfortable' with most music.
There are areas of music to which I rarely listen because they have little/zero appeal for me, but I don't feel in any sense 'uncomfortable' with them other than being bored. If I only listened to composers or areas of music which I know and like, I'd feel very claustrophobic, it would be like being confined to the house. I enjoy exploring the unknown, whether or not I end up liking it, it's exciting, and I feel very fortunate to live in a time when the magic of streaming makes such explorations almost limitless in scope.
I get a very different kind of feeling from rock music than the one I get from classical. It's an apples/oranges kind of situation, perhaps even a turnip/banana one. All kinds of music appeal to me at certain times though, but the majority of my listening is classical.
Solid, Jackson!
Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 16, 2022, 08:33:29 AM
Solid, Jackson!
Well, thank you! I admit I had to google that to discover it's full meaning/origin, but in doing so I was also offered the track below, which I liked a lot! So double thank you! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdXUj-W8TGA
I guess Classical Music can be considered a comfort zone in of itself.
Yes, guilty to that... I do like old style Jazz, particularly some of the legendary Jazz singers.
Whether this is a some fringe phenomenon, is debatable.... Only a small group of people listen to it.
But objectively - if we look at time span and variation of styles - it is the size of a musical universe.
Like many, I started out with Late Classical and Romantic symphonic repertoire. In my late teens I progressed in time till the 2nd Viennese School. That didn't really caught on... I thought I would get there, and beyond, in due time. But sofar it didn't happen... Instead I branched out into chamber music and vocal music and started to move backwards in time: Bach, the rest of Baroque, harpsichord and organ music came with that, and then Early Music. More than enough to keep me happily occupied for the last decades.
I don't really force myself out of my comfort zone: if I'm curious, I'll try something. If I like it, I'll try some more.
Really, it's all Comfort Zone, you know.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 16, 2022, 09:27:09 AM
True enough, but I hope he remains pure (sort of like Richard Nanes, the winner of eight consecutive Silver International Angel awards, or Neil Breen - or to be GMG specific: Rob Newman [http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10960.0.html]).
Thanks, I will put him onto my list as well. ;D
Invoking Neil Breen invites a whole 'nother kind of conversation about eccentric artists in all media ;D
Personally I'm fond of the novels of Harry Stephen Keeler, whose style is abominable but unforgettable, whose plots were conceived by literally pulling ideas written on scrap paper out of a drawer at random and throwing them together, and whose politics are incomprehensible (heavy national/racial caricatures created in the service of his theory that, to eliminate racism, everyone should intermarry until we're all light brown).
Hmm. I don't see purity as admirable if the thing you've distilled so purely isn't actually of worth.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 16, 2022, 07:38:30 AM
Hmmm. I don't think that is the right word, as I believe he is being authentic and sincere; he just holds onto a reality that the rest of us (save his mentor?) live in. Okay, I will now have to listen to Barto's Schubert. Things rated that low are always worth at least a go when it comes to classical music which seems inundated with hype.
That is the truth - Ivo, Barto, Kocsis - the poofier the better! 8)
The one who Barto always makes me think of is Emil Naoumoff - it's not the "romantic" interpretation style which makes me put the two together, it's a sensual approach to piano sound, just sort of wallowing in the gorgeous piano sounds.
Tzimon Barto gets a bit of kudos in romantic circles because of his drug use (like Cortot and Coleridge), unfortunately it was a dirty drug (crack)
Quote from: Madiel on June 16, 2022, 02:42:31 PM
Hmm. I don't see purity as admirable if the thing you've distilled so purely isn't actually of worth.
Aye, for instance doing things differently for the sake of doing things differently.
Quote from: philoctetes on June 16, 2022, 08:40:33 PMYou're selling me more and more on Barto. He did crack? My man knows how to get down. 0:)
He also took steroids.
Has anyone mentioned he is from Florida?
Quote from: philoctetes on June 16, 2022, 04:37:41 PM
Lol. I had never heard of Keeler, but this paragraph on Wikipedia has me very, very intrigued:
"Keeler typically padded the length of his novels with the following device: his protagonist would find a magazine or book, open it at random and discover a story. At this point, Keeler's novel would insert the complete verbatim text of one of his wife's short stories, this being the story his novel's protagonist was reading. At the end of the story, the novel would continue where it left off, several pages nearer to its contractual minimum word count. These stories-within-the-novel typically contained only a few scraps of information that were relevant to the novel in which they appeared"
That is quite ingenious, and reminiscent, to a degree, to Dos Passos's U.S.A., the cut-up technique associated with Burroughs, or just pastiche, in general. In fact, you might have just convinced me to go and get some of his books.
The insertions become more frequent in his later work, particularly after ~1940, which is also around the time that he started to be preoccupied with circuses, clowns, sideshow freaks, fortune tellers, and other misfits as central characters or plot devices. There are a handful of books available for free as RTF files here (https://site.xavier.edu/polt/keeler/etexts/index.html). "Try before you buy" 0:)
Quote from: Florestan on June 13, 2022, 09:10:08 AM
The only real, keen, committed interest I ever had besides "classical music" was on heavy metal, go figure! I grew my hair long, wore leather jackets and boots and was a dedicated fan of Metallica and Manowar --- and all this was taking place a few years after discovering "classical music", more precisely during my university years. After I graduated, my interest in heavy metal dwindled more and more until it faded away for good. I haven't played my heavy metal cassetes or CDs since I can't remember when, nor do I feel any need to hear this kind of music again. Péchés de jeunesse :D
Manowar sounded familiar, so I looked them up. One for the best album art thread!
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71fkrSPgwkL._SL1105_.jpg)
I had a friend 30 years ago who was a manowar fan and sometimes recited bits a silly spoken scene from one their albums where a grandfather? recounts a tale of an epic battle (Conan-style or maybe Vikings). The song or album is probably called "The kings of metal".
Quote from: Jo498 on June 18, 2022, 01:10:24 AM
I had a friend 30 years ago who was a manowar fan and sometimes recited bits a silly spoken scene from one their albums where a grandfather? recounts a tale of an epic battle (Conan-style or maybe Vikings). The song or album is probably called "The kings of metal".
https://www.youtube.com/v/qTf3NsLiG58
My favorite of them is "Heart of Steel"
https://www.youtube.com/v/rY_ewcSaRho
These surveys were for pop music: https://skynetandebert.com/2015/04/22/music-was-better-back-then-when-do-we-stop-keeping-up-with-popular-music/
I stopped listening to pop music because if anything it had regressed, rather than an age-related "taste freeze", as I have become keen on a number of different genres since then such as krautrock and classical.
Quote from: steve ridgway on June 30, 2022, 03:09:08 AM
I stopped listening to pop music because if anything it had regressed,
I agree that the top pop has, and it is not even common for teenagers to listen to that music. However indie music has exploded. It has become much easier for actually talented musicians to record their music and release it on streaming platforms. The problem is that while it is effortless for younger generations to find that music, it is a complete mystery to me. I've listened to some really good stuff but only sporadically.