GMG Classical Music Forum

I know some of you still own and enjoy sizeable collections of vinyl LPs, but how many of you are actually still actively seeking and acquiring LPs? Anyone? I make the rounds (2 or 3 stores) here in Vancouver on a monthly basis, but I still miss Amoeba in San Francisco and Berkeley, as well as Canterbury and Pooh Bah in Pasadena (CA).

I still enjoy hunting around for stuff (although I've tired of garage sales and people with all of their "rare" 78s of Toscanini, Caruso, et al. they think must be worth a fortune); however, at this point, I'm interested in finding a few good dealers (even trustworthy sellers on eBay) with some choice items--mostly historic monos, but also some more recent stereos, jazz, etc. Can anyone suggest some good dealers with reasonable prices?

Have you made any interesting discoveries on (or about) vinyl lately? 

When the cd came around 1980, I stopped buying vinyl. Even on a high end level I was irritated by the bad pressings, the clicks and tics. When I heard the cd, not perfect, but without all these irritations, I switched over immediately, and after 3 years sold my entire vinyl collection to someone that payed me a hefty sum. With that I could buy the first 2000 cd's.
Never regretted it! :)

Never collected vinyl, largely for the reasons Harry cites. I'm very much of the CD generation.

I actually meant this thread to go in the Great Recordings forum; whatever.

My days of arguing the CD vs LP thing are long over, but I will say that among the vinyl collectors I know (including myself), there is an aesthetic appreciation of the medium and all of its trappings that goes beyond mere considerations sound quality. Anyway, I have many CDs that I greatly enjoy as well as my LPs.  8)

If I can get them real cheap with an eye to selling them in the future.

ZB

I wouldn't say that I 'actively' collect, but if I am in a charity shop I will always have a look through the bin of old vinyl and there among the Herb Alberts, Mrs Mills, and 'Hits of the 70's' sometimes find something more akin to my tastes. I think my most recent was a Mahler 2 conducted by Bruno Walter which was in A1 condition and cost me £2. I have also bought some rare HMV/Melodiya LP's from ebay for next to nothing e.g the Shostakovich 'Execution of Stefan Razin' with Kondrashin.
I don't think I could part with my LP collection as I have many rarities that i don't think you can get on CD e.g. Jon Lords' 'Gemini Suite', Petrovs' 'Poem on those who died at the Siege of Leningrad', and so on.

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on August 31, 2007, 01:55:46 AM
I actually meant this thread to go in the Great Recordings forum; whatever.

My days of arguing the CD vs LP thing are long over, but I will say that among the vinyl collectors I know (including myself), there is an aesthetic appreciation of the medium and all of its trappings that goes beyond mere considerations sound quality. Anyway, I have many CDs that I greatly enjoy as well as my LPs.  8)

Space considerations forced me to give away my vast collection from the 50's through 1984 to my brother, who used to have all kinds of room in his house before he took over my records!

His goal is to digitize them!?

I suppose the CD will give way to MP3 chips and pure electronic downloads, where you never actually see the "thing" containing a specific work.

Well, they're cheap and I'm poor, so yes, I still buy vinyl records once in a while. And there's the consideration someone above mentioned: you can get stuff that was never re-released on CD!

I'll move the thread to Great Recordings presently.

Once CDs came out, I got rid of my vinyl pretty fast.

I agree with those who argue in favour of vinyl's warmth and overall fidelity, but storage is at a premium in my home, so CDs (and now downloads) have to rule. It breaks my heart, however, when I find terrific LPs in perfect condition going for next to nothing in charity shops ... which is often. I don't buy them simply because I no longer own a turntable. :(

Quote from: Mark on August 31, 2007, 05:46:10 AM
I agree with those who argue in favour of vinyl's warmth and overall fidelity, but storage is at a premium in my home, so CDs (and now downloads) have to rule. It breaks my heart, however, when I find terrific LPs in perfect condition going for next to nothing in charity shops ... which is often. I don't buy them simply because I no longer own a turntable. :(

Yes, as mentioned above, I gave away my Bang and Olufsen record player to my brother, along with the collection.  My school  recently had a "Garage Sale" in the gym and all kinds of 60's and 70's records were a nickel.  Very few classical things, mainly embarrassments   8)      like Debby Boone, Peter Frampton, Captain and Tennille,    :o   etc.   

Actually the nice thing about vinyl was the notes on the back cover in a size you could read without a microscope or magnifying glass!  Much good music history in those notes!

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on August 31, 2007, 01:24:19 AM
Can anyone suggest some good dealers with reasonable prices?

I am sure you know them already, but http://www.parnassusrecords.com/catalogs.htm has a large LP catalogue.

As w/ Harry et al, I bought my first CD player (a Yamaha) at the end of 1984 (when the price dropped below $500 - a promise to my wife; it was $499 -  ;) ;D) - sold my beautiful Denon turn table to my brother-in-law & just included my vinyl LP collection (was not that large) - never looked back; OTOH, my BIL had about 3000 LPs at the time and was not about to start replacing them!  :)

I probably buy 6-12 LPs a year.

Most contain selections/composers that I can't currently find on CD.

My average price is around $12 per record. Although I went the Princeton Record Exchange for the first time in my life 2 months ago and picked up a real jewel for $1!!

I begun to buy vinyls about 1960. I still buy some specials
or very rare ones. But haven't the equipment, so I made it copied
to CD, and later sell the vinyl.In the last years I did that with
about 300.

A question to the people who transfer their LPs to CD: how do you go about that? Do you have someone do it for you? Do you do it yourself? Is it possible to do properly without some sort of high-end equipment? I know loudav uses some sort of set-up entirely of his own design and making...

(If there's already been a thread on the subject, please direct me there. ;D)

Quote from: Maciek on August 31, 2007, 10:16:12 AM
A question to the people who transfer their LPs to CD: how do you go about that? Do you have someone do it for you? Do you do it yourself? Is it possible to do properly without some sort of high-end equipment? I know loudav uses some sort of set-up entirely of his own design and making...

(If there's already been a thread on the subject, please direct me there. ;D)

I'd say the easiest way would be to output the turntable to your computer's soundcard. Turntable will probably have an RCA cable so that should be easy, no conversion needed. Play the LP and record what is playing directly as a WAV file and then burn it as a CD You might want to pause between tracks to have them recorded seperately. Since the LP recording is analog you have to record it at 1X1 speed for optimum sonics.

Quote from: orbital on August 31, 2007, 10:31:59 AM
I'd say the easiest way would be to output the turntable to your computer's soundcard. Turntable will probably have an RCA cable so that should be easy, no conversion needed. Play the LP and record what is playing directly as a WAV file and then burn it as a CD You might want to pause between tracks to have them recorded seperately. Since the LP recording is analog you have to record it at 1X1 speed for optimum sonics.

That sounds bizarre.  A phono pickup needs a pre-amp, do you connect the phono to the microphone input?  In any case, the sensible thing to do is to connect a "line out" or "tape out" from your amplifier or preamplifier to a sound card.

Quote from: head-case on August 31, 2007, 11:03:40 AM
That sounds bizarre.  A phono pickup needs a pre-amp, do you connect the phono to the microphone input?  In any case, the sensible thing to do is to connect a "line out" or "tape out" from your amplifier or preamplifier to a sound card.

yes of course, what I meant by "from the turntable to soundcard' is of course that. Connection from the amp or the receiver that the turntable is connected to

Quote from: Maciek on August 31, 2007, 10:16:12 AM
A question to the people who transfer their LPs to CD: how do you go about that? Do you have someone do it for you? Do you do it yourself? Is it possible to do properly without some sort of high-end equipment? I know loudav uses some sort of set-up entirely of his own design and making...

(If there's already been a thread on the subject, please direct me there. ;D)

Vinyl to CD thread here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,119.0.html

I've accumulated 1,000+ albums over the last few months, all for less than a dollar each. Classical LP's tend to be well taken care of and there are tons of recordings never re-issued on CD. I buy music cdr's in bulk for 40-cents each and sit down and listen to an LP I've never heard before. If it's something I want to hear again, I press the record button on the machine while I have a second listen and make myself a CD that goes onto my shelf.

Thanks for the input everyone, and thanks for the link, Szykniej! I had a feeling the subject had to have been covered... ;D

Quote from: Szykniej on August 31, 2007, 11:32:49 AM
Vinyl to CD thread here:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,119.0.html

I've accumulated 1,000+ albums over the last few months, all for less than a dollar each. Classical LP's tend to be well taken care of and there are tons of recordings never re-issued on CD. I buy music cdr's in bulk for 40-cents each and sit down and listen to an LP I've never heard before. If it's something I want to hear again, I press the record button on the machine while I have a second listen and make myself a CD that goes onto my shelf.

How long have you owned this? Do you know if it is still available. If you don't mind my asking, what did you pay for it?

Quote from: Robert on August 31, 2007, 01:03:56 PM
How long have you owned this? Do you know if it is still available. If you don't mind my asking, what did you pay for it?

It was a gift from my wife so I'm not sure exactly how much it was. I believe around $350. I've had it for about a year and a half, but it was just over the last few months that I've really gotten into using it a lot. I'd be surprised if it wasn't still available, perhaps even in an updated version.

Quote from: Szykniej on August 31, 2007, 11:32:49 AM
I've accumulated 1,000+ albums over the last few months, all for less than a dollar each. Classical LP's tend to be well taken care of and there are tons of recordings never re-issued on CD. I buy music cdr's in bulk for 40-cents each and sit down and listen to an LP I've never heard before. If it's something I want to hear again, I press the record button on the machine while I have a second listen and make myself a CD that goes onto my shelf.

This sounds like the ideal situation, but it does bring us back to the question of LP storage. My neighbour, as I've mentioned around here before, has a double garage stacked to the rafters with vinyl - none of which, incidentally, he's yet bothered to transfer to CD, AFAIK. If I were to begin collecting vinyl as insanely as he has, I'd have no option but to copy and resell. Either that, or sleep on the roof of my house. ;D

I have a wardrobe full of vinyl, about 1000+, which I'm slowly selling off. I never listen to them anymore and they fetch a very good price.

I've started collecting Lps again.  I've bought hundreds  of Lps since upgrading my analog system last April.  In fact, to date, I've put at least twice as money into my analog equipment as my digital equipment.  I do find it fun to play vinyl.

However, lately I've been somewhat disappointed by what's available on the used market and the poor quality of so much vinyl.  At least what I'm willing to pay for; I not interested in audiophile stuff and don't like paying the ridiculous prices for the collectable stuff.  Overall, I prefer CDs, particularly for classical music.  Even after all I've spent on analog equipment, I still think I get better sound from CDs. 

There are still plenty of recordings that never made it to CD, or that were poorly transfered to digital, but I don't think there are enough of them to really justify how much I've spent on analog equipment. 

I also think the "analog is better, digital gives me a headache" people are just delusional.

Daverz, you should try looking round my local Oxfam Music & Book store for used LPs - I regularly see great stuff there by big-name performers, almost always in near-mint condition.

I prefer CDs, but I still actively collect LPs and 78s.  Sometimes, they are too cheap to resist, and sometimes they have recordings that can't be found on CD.  The last group of LPs I bought was just a few weeks ago; my reviews of them appeared in the "Purchases Today" thread.

One of my favorite categories for collecting is records from the acoustic era (pre-1925).  These are terrible recordings, but they are historically interesting.  I really need to get a turntable that is designed for these records, which were recorded at a variety of speeds, mostly ranging from 71 to 80 RPM.  I have been drooling over these turntables; one of these days I should get around to buying one.

http://www.esotericsound.com/turntable1.htm

The ones that play 16" to 17" records look like good choices; if I had one of those, I would be able to start collecting radio transcriptions.  I already have one super-sized 78 that is too big for my existing turntable.

Heather

Quote from: Szykniej on August 31, 2007, 01:19:25 PM
It was a gift from my wife so I'm not sure exactly how much it was. I believe around $350. I've had it for about a year and a half, but it was just over the last few months that I've really gotten into using it a lot. I'd be surprised if it wasn't still available, perhaps even in an updated version.

I cannot seem to locate this even at Sony. They show RCD500C period.  Is the W100 part of the number or separate? Do you know where your wife purchased it? BTW do you live in the states? 

Quote from: Robert on August 31, 2007, 02:30:24 PM
I cannot seem to locate this even at Sony. They show RCD500C period.  Is the W100 part of the number or separate? Do you know where your wife purchased it? BTW do you live in the states? 

Here it is at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-RCDW500C-Compact-Player-Recorder/dp/B0000B3E8U/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6478711-9931130?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1188609042&sr=1-1

I prefer CDs, but I will buy vinyl when I see something interesting for a buck to three bucks, that is not interesting enough to pay ten to fifteen bucks for a CD of.

My music interest began at the top of the CD revolution. I remember in elementary school during parties, kids would bring in records of modern music and I only had my dad's old records, so we had a lot of Fats Domino and Chubby Checker to spread around. :)

When I finally began to have the beginnings of a "disposable" income, it was around '88, '89... so only CDs.

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on August 31, 2007, 01:38:18 PM
I have a wardrobe full of vinyl

We're talking about records, not fetish gear, you pervert.  ;) ;) ;)

Quote from: Szykniej on August 31, 2007, 05:15:16 PM
Here it is at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Sony-RCDW500C-Compact-Player-Recorder/dp/B0000B3E8U/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6478711-9931130?ie=UTF8&s=audio-video&qid=1188609042&sr=1-1

Does this unit only run on batteries???

I buy used LPs if the music is interesting. Sometimes I find gems on this format that are not on CD. But I don't buy many.

(I can't help liking to tinker a bit with my turntable and associated equipment even if the rest of my setup is of the fire-and-forget type.)

Quote from: Robert on August 31, 2007, 11:48:01 PM
Does this unit only run on batteries???

No, the batteries in the description are for the remote control clicker.

Quote from: Szykniej on September 01, 2007, 04:39:42 AM
No, the batteries in the description are for the remote control clicker.

Thanks for your help. I am going shopping.....I am hoping that circuit city or best buy carry the unit...I am excited. If not I can always get it from Amazon. I have never purchased anything but discs from them...Christmas comes early this year...Actually my wife would probably buy it for me for my birthday. I will then have to wait till November.).  ;D

Quote from: Robert on September 01, 2007, 10:12:35 AM
Thanks for your help. I am going shopping.....I am hoping that circuit city or best buy carry the unit...I am excited. If not I can always get it from Amazon. I have never purchased anything but discs from them...Christmas comes early this year...Actually my wife would probably buy it for me for my birthday. I will then have to wait till November.).  ;D

Good luck! Let us know how you make out.

For me, my vinyl collection outnumbers CD by about 2 to 1.  Most of my purchases are online.  For inexpensive stuff Ebay is OK.  However, for more expensive collectible LP's I find Ebay a bit too risky unless I know the seller.  There are a number of reliable online sellers.  Unfortunately (for me, anyway), most are in the UK, which adds a hefty premium in postage.  As well, several of the better dealers have closed up shop over the past year or too.  Here are my favourites of the ones still left:

http://www.classic-choice.co.uk/

http://www.classicrecords.co.uk/index.html

http://www.classicvinylcollector.com/

http://www.mikrokosmos.com/

http://www.spiralclassics.co.uk/

http://www.watsonrecords.co.uk/

The prices can get pretty outrageous if you want first pressings of the desirable labels like Decca or EMI.  I usually settle for 2nd or 3rd pressings. 

I'm so used to hunting down LP's, sometimes just walking into a store and buying a CD feels like cheating.

Quote from: Harry on August 31, 2007, 01:33:57 AMEven on a high end level I was irritated by the bad pressings, the clicks and tics.

Same here. On the few occasions today that I get to listen to vinyl the clicks thoroughly repel me. Also, the supposed "superiority" of vinyl in terms of sound was always just a myth (or, urban legend).

Quote from: Mark on August 31, 2007, 01:33:39 PM
This sounds like the ideal situation, but it does bring us back to the question of LP storage. My neighbour, as I've mentioned around here before, has a double garage stacked to the rafters with vinyl - none of which, incidentally, he's yet bothered to transfer to CD, AFAIK. If I were to begin collecting vinyl as insanely as he has, I'd have no option but to copy and resell. Either that, or sleep on the roof of my house. ;D

Very true that space is a big issue. Fortunately, I have a garage, basement, and attic to make use of. At the moment, all of my uncopied vinyl is in my garage, which also serves as my office and quiet listening area. Each album that I copy goes into a crate, which is then transferred to my cellar when full. (I'm also creating an inventory on my computer as I go.) Eventually, if I have the discipline to continue the process, I'll have all my LPs safely sorted and stored away in my basement with the CD versions on my shelf for active listening.

That LPs should offer superior sound to CD is of course BS, but they can sound remarkably similar.

The pops don't annoy me if the music is good, but the lack of those on CD is of course a big benefit.

Quote from: Valentino on September 02, 2007, 05:41:44 AM
That LPs should offer superior sound to CD is of course BS, but they can sound remarkably similar.

The pops don't annoy me if the music is good, but the lack of those on CD is of course a big benefit.

Not to get into an argument here, but the best vinyl reproduction I have heard easily surpasses the best conventional digital.  To my ears, of course.  I remain undecided on the new high-res formats like SACD.  However, the limited number of releases on those formats renders the question moot.

Of course, I would never claim that CD has no advantages whatsoever over LP.  Simply put, CD's produce less non-music, while LP's produce more music, if that makes any sense.

Quote from: Shrunk on September 02, 2007, 12:38:50 PMOf course, I would never claim that CD has no advantages whatsoever over LP.  Simply put, CD's produce less non-music, while LP's produce more music, if that makes any sense.

I don't think it does, actually.   ;D

First, an anecdote. A while ago, some neighbors who were moving to a new house a few blocks away had a yard sale.  They had a few 78 RPM records and didn't even know what they were.  They thought they were 33.3 LPs!  They're the wrong generation to know much about 78s. I don't think they even have a record player. I tried to explain how I knew they were 78s but I don't think I convinced them.  However, since I can't play 78s, I wasn't interested in buying any.

Since the mid 1980s, I have bought mostly CDs, but I have retained my LP collection, which must be close to 1300 by now.  I have a pretty good LP playing system and many of them sound acceptable to very good. I haven't replaced very many of them with CDs, mostly music I play fairly often.

I look for used LPs (and CDs, DVDs, even VHS tapes) in the used music stores, thrift stores, the sales at the public library, and perhaps yard sales, usually available very cheaply. Sometimes I find some interesting stuff, sometimes not.  I am now looking to cull some of my LP collection to make room for them, either because I don't like them (sound or performance) or because I have replaced them with CDs.

Quote from: head-case on September 02, 2007, 04:28:37 PM
I don't think it does, actually.   ;D

Sometimes brevity is the enemy of clarity. ???

This quote from an audio website pretty well summarizes the differences I hear between analogue and digital:

"From my own personal experience, all digital components made today still 'simplify' music compared to good analog, even to the degree that it will begin to sound 'mechanical' and 'artificial'.

"On the other hand, it would be foolish to ignore Digital's superiority to analog in a number of sonic parameters: Precision, outer detail, speed stability, noise and overall purity.

"Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; the conveyor of emotions. That is why Digital, at present, is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those audiophiles who are very familiar with good analog sound."

That quote is taken from here:  http://www.high-endaudio.com/index.html.

Of course, this is all subjective.  There's no way to prove either side of the argument. 

Quote from: Shrunk on September 03, 2007, 03:17:02 AM
Of course, this is all subjective.  There's no way to prove either side of the argument. 

Oh yes, there is. ALL paramters (dynamic range, noise level, etc.) clearly show CDs to be superior in sound. The argument that 16bit resolution is not enough to reproduce music in all detail was always BS. The myth of the superiority of LPs dates from the early CD era, when some CDs were simply dreadfully remastered compared to the older vinly masters and the sound engineers of the analogue era were not fully capable of utilizing digital technology properly.

Quote from: Shrunk on September 03, 2007, 03:17:02 AM
Sometimes brevity is the enemy of clarity. ???

This quote from an audio website pretty well summarizes the differences I hear between analogue and digital:

"From my own personal experience, all digital components made today still 'simplify' music compared to good analog, even to the degree that it will begin to sound 'mechanical' and 'artificial'.

"On the other hand, it would be foolish to ignore Digital's superiority to analog in a number of sonic parameters: Precision, outer detail, speed stability, noise and overall purity.

"Unfortunately, it also subtracts those aspects of the sound which are the vital essence of music; the conveyor of emotions. That is why Digital, at present, is more intellectually than emotionally satisfying. This is especially true for those audiophiles who are very familiar with good analog sound."

That quote is taken from here:  http://www.high-endaudio.com/index.html.

Of course, this is all subjective.  There's no way to prove either side of the argument. 

Ah, you subscribe to the maxim "if I saw it on a web site it must be true."

Quote from: head-case on September 03, 2007, 05:41:01 AM
Ah, you subscribe to the maxim "if I saw it on a web site it must be true."

No, I just thought that quote did a better job of describing what I hear with my own ears than I could have done in my own words.

Quote from: sound67 on September 03, 2007, 05:33:25 AM
Oh yes, there is. ALL paramters (dynamic range, noise level, etc.) clearly show CDs to be superior in sound. The argument that 16bit resolution is not enough to reproduce music in all detail was always BS.

So do you think it would be possible to evaluate the quality of a recording just by measuring those parameters, and without listening to it?

Quote from: Shrunk on September 03, 2007, 09:26:24 AM
So do you think it would be possible to evaluate the quality of a recording just by measuring those parameters, and without listening to it?

It is certainly possible to show that the signal that goes into a digital recorder is indistinguishable from the one that comes out (within some level of precision) and that the signal that goes into an analog cutting machine is very different than what comes out of your pickup cartridge when you play the record.  That shows that the analog process adds extraneous stuff to the recording, which you can quite legitimately claim to like.  This stuff about digital "stripping away" emotional content is nonsense, however.

Quote from: head-case on September 03, 2007, 09:42:16 AM
This stuff about digital "stripping away" emotional content is nonsense, however.

With this I agree. LPs certainly have a warmth about them, but that warmth doesn't have any bearing on emotional content, IMO.

And if one misses the hiss and pops, just start adding "historical recordings" on cd to your collection.  ;)

Quote from: Mark on September 03, 2007, 01:58:09 PMLPs certainly have a warmth about them, but that warmth doesn't have any bearing on emotional content, IMO.

Ah but you see, Mark: There is emotional content in low order even harmonic distortion.

I have some truly involving LPs and some binnable CDs, and vice versa.

Every time vinyls are talked about this fight over the sound quality of vinyl and CD arises.  :P

CD is technologically SUPERIOR to vinyl. Period. Acoustic engineers describe vinyl this way:

"You scratch a plastic plate with a small stone and you try to get a good sound out of that."  ;D

So, why do some people say vinyl sounds better than CD?

Because vinyl adds colourizations and distortions to the sound these people have learned to like. This learning has to do with golden memories, nostalgia etc. People remember the excitement of buying their first vinyl when they where young and that sort of things...

So, what's bad about this nostalgia?

These distortions do not belong to the music, whether you like it or not. If they did you'd find them on CD too. CD can carry the distortions (the "warmth") of vinyl with ease, if wanted. Good sound reproduction is faithful to the original sound. Good sound reproduction reveals also the "ugliness" of the original sound without trying to hide it and warm up everything to please the listener. A good sound reproduction chain is neutral.

So, can't people just keep enjoying their "warm" vinyl sound?

People are free to enjoy whatever they want and I have nothing against people enjoying their vinyls but they should understand the real reasons behind the enjoyment and realise CD is superior to vinyl.

Quote from: 71 dB on September 04, 2007, 05:13:10 AM
These distortions do not belong to the music, whether you like it or not. If they did you'd find them on CD too. CD can carry the distortions (the "warmth") of vinyl with ease, if wanted. Good sound reproduction is faithful to the original sound. Good sound reproduction reveals also the "ugliness" of the original sound without trying to hide it and warm up everything to please the listener. A good sound reproduction chain is neutral.

That's certainly one way of looking at it, and I have no problem with it.  However, the other viewpoint is that the goal of an audio system is to allow the listener maximal enjoyment of recorded music.

You'll often read reviews of audio components in which the gear is praised for being "revealing", and the reviewer will warn that imperfectly engineered recordings may sound worse on this gear than on other, less "neutral" equipment.  Personally, I have no interest in spending my hard-earned money to make my music sound worse!

When I evaluate audio gear, I don't pay attention to soundstage, timbral accuracy, frequency response or all those other audiophile terms.  I listen for how closely it reproduces the experience of hearing live music.  By that, I mean the emotional connection to the performance.  My experience is that LP's reproduce this more consistently than digital.  YMMV.

Quote from: Shrunk on September 04, 2007, 06:17:45 AM
That's certainly one way of looking at it, and I have no problem with it.  However, the other viewpoint is that the goal of an audio system is to allow the listener maximal enjoyment of recorded music.

But what we enjoy comes from our preferences and those preferences are not fixed. Had vinyl never existed nobody would have learned to like it's "warm sound". People just like the way things have been done and have diffeculties with new, better ways to do them. When you open your mind you can learn to enjoy better ways.

Quote from: Shrunk on September 04, 2007, 06:17:45 AMYou'll often read reviews of audio components in which the gear is praised for being "revealing", and the reviewer will warn that imperfectly engineered recordings may sound worse on this gear than on other, less "neutral" equipment.  Personally, I have no interest in spending my hard-earned money to make my music sound worse!

Yes, but on the other hand neutral gear sounds absolutely fantastic with well-done recordings. In my opinion these warnings are stupid. It's not the fault of neutral systems badly engineered recordings exists. In fact the existence of neutral systems encourage better engineering! "We better make a good recording because people are listening with revealing systems!".

Quote from: Shrunk on September 04, 2007, 06:17:45 AMI listen for how closely it reproduces the experience of hearing live music.  By that, I mean the emotional connection to the performance.  My experience is that LP's reproduce this more consistently than digital.  YMMV.

Digital? You mean CD? That's just one digital format and not even "state-of-the-art" anymore, a technology developped in the 70's but still superior to vinyl.

I don't know what clicks, pops, distortion, hum, rattle and reduced dynamics you hear in live performances. For me the sound of vinyl is pretty far from hearing live music. Of all sound formats I have heard in my life well done multichannel SACDs come pretty close to live performance. Well done CDs are good too but not as good as multichannel SACDs. Vinyl is a joke in comparison.

You are entitled to like vinyl more but be aware why.   ;)

Quote from: 71 dB on September 04, 2007, 06:52:01 AM
I don't know what clicks, pops, distortion, hum, rattle and reduced dynamics you hear in live performances. For me the sound of vinyl is pretty far from hearing live music.

Maybe he stuffs cucumbers wrapped in crinkly cellophane in his ears when he goes to the concert hall.

Quote from: head-case on September 04, 2007, 07:34:09 AM
Maybe he stuffs cucumbers wrapped in crinkly cellophane in his ears when he goes to the concert hall.

Well, OK.  You're onto me.  However, it's not my ears where the cucumber goes....

Yesterday I saw a posting on a local e-mail list from someone who left a bunch of lps on the curb that were free for the taking. Luckily, I picked up my strapping 16-year-old son on the way to investigate because when we got there, we discovered over 1,000 albums in boxes and milk crates waiting for a home. It was very cold and getting dark, so rather than check them out on the street, we grabbed them all.

As a general music lover with tastes not limited to classical, I was surprised at how few of these albums I had an interest in when I started going through them in my cellar. The original owner was probably of Scandinavian descent because there were many Swedish/Norwegian/Finish folk song recordings. There was a huge amount of Country and Western that I can probably package up and sell on e-bay. It's amazing how many albums the Mormon Tabernacle Choir produced and I guess everyone can use five more recordings of Handel's "Messiah". I probably now have one of the largest Polka collections in town.

It was worth the effort, though, because the records were very well cared and I was able to come up with about 150 albums that I'll add to my collection. Among those I've put aside to listen to first are:


Prokofieff, Symphony 5, Martinon/Paris Conservatory
Liszt, 4 Hungarian Rhapsodies/ Vienna State Orch. - Vanguard  Stereo Demonstration Disc
Beethoven Quartet #14, Pascal String Quartet, Concert Hall Society issue
"Bach to Bernstein", Realistic quadraphonic recording
Glenn Miller Carnegie Hall Concert, RCA
Rachmaninoff Concerto No. 2, Rubinstein/NBC Symphony
Brahms Concerto No. 2, Gilels/Reiner/Chicago
Rachmaninoff Concerto No. 3, Van Cliburn/Kondrashin (Carnegie Hall live)
Zino Francescatti, Mendelssohn and Bruch violin concertos
Christine Walevska, cello, Bloch/Bruch/Schumann
Bartok, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra, Disques Vega
Duke Ellington, "In a Mellotone"
Chopin, "The 14 Waltzes", Brailowsky
Tchaikovsky, Piano Concerto No. 1, Entremont/Bernstein
The Dave Clark Five, "I Like it Like That"
"A Lorin Hollander Concert", Bach/Brahms/Schumann
Albert Schweitzer, Bach Organ Music volume VI
Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, Koussevitzky/Boston
Concerti for Horn and Orchestra, Vivaldi./Telemann/Rosetti
RCA "Meet the Artist", Szeryng, Janigro, Juliard String Quartet, et al.
75th Anniversary of the Boston Symphony/Pops RCA issue
Hank Williams "Ramblin' Man"
Brahms, Four Symphonies Box Set, Szell/Cleveland
"Classical Russian Poetry" read in English and Russian
E. Power Biggs, "Stars and Stripes Forever", autographed

Many hours of free fun to come!

For those that buy vinyl, are there certain labels or orchestras/conductors that you'll pick up automatically? I browse the local used record selection every week or two and would like some tips on material that is probably worth grabbing right away (these sell for $1 apiece). Usually I'll take any DGG stuff that appears, which is not a lot.

I don't know of a shop that sells used vinyl in these parts.  Earlier when there was such a place nearby I sometimes browsed for recordings that had never been issued on CD or which had pretty cover art (for $0.50, why not?)

Wanted vinyls:
English Columbia, Decca Stereo, DGG stereo red label on front, any French stereo before 1960, Mercury stereo,RCA living stereo, Remington originals, Continental, Philips stereo. In general, every FIRST edition on any label, and any stereo before 1960. DON'T wanted except special cases: Angel, Seraphin, Vox, Turnabout, London, RCA mono, Philips mono. And do not despise 10" vinyls. Some of them are worth 3 figures.

Yes.  But originals, not spendy audiophile reissues.

Correct. Avoid any one with the legend "electronically
modified to simulate stereo" or similes. And quadraphonics! Take note besides, that not only the record must be on a VG-Excelent-Mint condition, but the cover also. Any broken, written, marked or open on edges cover and the record is valued on a third or less, except exceptional rarity. And look for closed (nor opened) records.

Quote from: Carolus on February 14, 2010, 07:16:44 AM
Wanted vinyls:
English Columbia, Decca Stereo, DGG stereo red label on front, any French stereo before 1960, Mercury stereo,RCA living stereo, Remington originals, Continental, Philips stereo. In general, every FIRST edition on any label, and any stereo before 1960. DON'T wanted except special cases: Angel, Seraphin, Vox, Turnabout, London, RCA mono, Philips mono. And do not despise 10" vinyls. Some of them are worth 3 figures.

Do you buy these for their collector value or because you like the quality? Or both?

I did collect vinyl 15yrs ago but...........

Keep in mind how labor intensive vinyl playback is.........

Every 20-25 minutes you have to run over and change record sides and prepare new side for playback,
for Beethoven 9th that means stop everything and make three trips to change record, for classical playback this is insanity

Not to mention dealing with surface noise of vinyl playback vs 110+ db of signal to noise silence of CD playback for classical quiet sections......I had very expensive Linn Sondek LP12/Valhalla turntable with Itok arm I sold in 1995 and was never happier to remove that burden from enjoying music without all the hassle  ;)

Quote from: DarkAngel on February 14, 2010, 11:17:59 AM
Keep in mind how labor intensive vinyl playback is.........

Every 20-25 minutes you have to run over and change record sides and prepare new side for playback,
for Beethoven 9th that means stop everything and make three trips to change record, for classical playback this is insanity

Not to mention dealing with surface noise of vinyl playback vs 110+ db of signal to noise silence of CD playback for classical quiet sections......I had very expensive Linn Sondek LP12/Valhalla turntable with Itok arm I sold in 1995 and was never happier to remove that burden from enjoying music without all the hassle  ;)

My solution is to transfer the LP to a CD, then listen to the CD.  No getting up, the pops and tracking error are what they are, no temptation to fuss over tracking force adjustment or whether there is a molecule of dust on the stylus.  I have an old DAT recorder and a Sony CD recorder that both work nicely.  The thing is the LP retains that analog "warmth" which some people got nuts for even when transferred to a CD.  This makes sense, since the resolution of a CD is so far beyond what an LP can convey, it has more than enough resolution to perfectly reproduce LP distortion with wonder fidelity!

Quote from: OzRadio on February 14, 2010, 10:08:39 AM
Do you buy these for their collector value or because you like the quality? Or both?

I buy vinyls when I want the work/player, made them copied to CD and got rid of them. And I buy vinyls that I don't want or like, but because they are rare and/or worthy, and I keep them for sell sometime. Rare vinyls is IMHO a good investmen, because there wouldn't be more. What it is, is all
you'll have.

Quote from: OzRadio on February 14, 2010, 06:19:49 AM
For those that buy vinyl, are there certain labels or orchestras/conductors that you'll pick up automatically? I browse the local used record selection every week or two and would like some tips on material that is probably worth grabbing right away (these sell for $1 apiece). Usually I'll take any DGG stuff that appears, which is not a lot.

I buy vinyl recordings to listen to, not for their collectible value. If you come across music that you're curious about or recordings that you like and don't already own, for $1.00 apiece, how can you go wrong?

Quote from: Szykniej on February 14, 2010, 01:04:06 PM
I buy vinyl recordings to listen to, not for their collectible value. If you come across music that you're curious about or recordings that you like and don't already own, for $1.00 apiece, how can you go wrong?

Amen.

go to www.collectorsweekly.com and you'll know how much people are ready to pay for a vinyl (or any other stuff). :o

The statement of ... LP sounds better than CD ... I absolutely agreed.
But since LP suck my money ... I stopped it.
To owned an 45-rpm records is a changes that I will never ever missed.

But now ... I hear most Lossy (MP3/MPC/AAC) and Lossless (FLAC/APE/WAV/ALAC) only.
Cos it saved my money.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: sound67 on September 03, 2007, 05:33:25 AM
Oh yes, there is. ALL paramters (dynamic range, noise level, etc.) clearly show CDs to be superior in sound. The argument that 16bit resolution is not enough to reproduce music in all detail was always BS. The myth of the superiority of LPs dates from the early CD era, when some CDs were simply dreadfully remastered compared to the older vinly masters and the sound engineers of the analogue era were not fully capable of utilizing digital technology properly.

I beg to differ.

Quote from: RJR on January 01, 2011, 07:43:16 PM
I beg to differ.

I agree with you.  It varies.  Sometimes the cd sounds superior, sometimes the vinyl.  A poor piece of vinyl will sound poor....a poorly mastered cd will sound poor. 

At the risk of bringing up the Star Wars' soundtrack ;D I just played the vinyl and  the cd for a friend back to back and he was more impressed with the vinyl.  He heard instrumentation on the vinyl that was buried on the cd.  You really need to take each recording case by case.

As a blanket statement, I tend to enjoy solo piano on vinyl more. Just a warmer sound most of the time.  However, all that I have written in this post is a matter of taste.

On a final note, however, if you do not like even the faintest of pops, stay clear of the vinyl.  Even $50 audiophile pressings that are newly opened can have some of this.  These do not bother me, so I continue to purchase the ol' platters.

Love those 'ol Platters. Only you...
:D

I haven't had the heart to toss my old vinyl collection, but I don't listen any more.  My collection had a lot of tough love-- so there were lots of pops.

I do think that the vinyl sound had more presence and the dynamic range of CDs can be a problem when ambient noise interferes. 

There are current artists in the rock world that mix for vinyl, and complement their CD releases with vinyl releases just because they preferred the sound, and I agree-- I just find digital more convenient.

After spending the last few days transferring my Beatles vinyl to digital, it dawned on me that my early record purchases were probably the wisest financial moves I've ever made. My "Meet the Beatles" album that I bought in 1964 (actually, my father bought it for me -- Thanks Dad!) probably cost around $1.00. (I remember how upset I was when albums crept over $2.00 in price years later.) I've listened to it frequently over the years, and it still sounds great. Now, I have it on my computer and cdr's to enjoy forever at no additional cost. I can't think of any other item that I've owned for nearly 50 years that cost so little, provided continual enjoyment, and is still as functional as the day it was purchased!

So what are the LPs' advantages over CDs? (I'm not trying to dismiss the older medium here; just that I've never even held an unwrapped LP in my hand before & thus know nothing about it. Some ppl seem to be still very enthusiastic about them!)

I stopped collecting Vinyl when the CD came to life. No need for unwanted surface noises. Today I try to prevent buying CDs. If I can get lossless digital data files, I buy them.

What are some sources for classical lossless digital files?

I buy a lot at Chandos (www.theclassicalshop.net). Linn as well.

Tapio,

Aye, thanks!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57360306-47/poll-why-do-young-people-play-lps/ (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57360306-47/poll-why-do-young-people-play-lps/)

Just curious, if anyone on this forum has jumped into vinyl and is new to it... so that it's not a matter of nostalgia... why did you do it and what is the experience like?

I'm a downloads only kind of guy now and I can't imagine collecting those huge discs, it's funny that they've made a come back (in the day and age of convenience, smartphones, tablets etc) but apparently not only is it happening but the UK sales show strong support for it not being about nostalgia.

Quote from: DavidW on January 19, 2012, 04:15:09 PMJust curious, if anyone on this forum has jumped into vinyl and is new to it... so that it's not a matter of nostalgia... why did you do it and what is the experience like?

I'm not a youngster, but I can relay my recent revisiting of big discs.  I had to rely on vinyl when I was young.  Then starting around 1990 I switched to CDs and lived without a turtable until 2009.  I kept all of my LPs, though.  When I got back into vinyl, I was able to get a good turntable and cartridge and phono pre, and I spun not only my old LPs, but picked up a nice haul of used ones.

LPs do not have the dynamic range of CDs, they are more distorted, and they can be noisy, but they have their place.  To my ears, rock and jazz sound better on LPs.  Classical tends to benefit from digital, though well recorded, well pressed LPs of string quartets sound fabulous.  They sound warmer and almost as detailed.  The Ferras / Karajan LvB violin concerto sounds a bit less impressive orchestrally, but Ferras sounds better.  And Colin Davis' '70s Sibelius is superb in every way.  Note that I've bought nothing but used pressings for classical, though I have bought some new 180 gram pressings of rock (Warren Zevon, Pink Floyd, Eagles, etc).  While older LPs may may be noisier on occasion (though not always!), they sound as good as new pressings.  Indeed, it's not uncommon to read avid collectors saying that older LPs sound better than newer ones.  I can't really detect much of a difference based on age alone.  The Davis Sibelius set, for instance, was pressed in the 80s, generally considered the nadir of pressing quality, yet it sounds superb despite its flimsiness. 

One plus about vinyl is that used vinyl is cheap.  I pick up LPs for between $2 and $6 each, with sets being less per disc.  And then there are recordings that never made it CD, and may or may not become digital files.  This applies to all genres.

All that written, most of my listening is digital.  It's nice to have all formats at one's disposal.  Hell, I've thought about buying a tape deck to listen to some of my old tapes.

Quote from: DavidW on January 19, 2012, 04:15:09 PM
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57360306-47/poll-why-do-young-people-play-lps/ (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57360306-47/poll-why-do-young-people-play-lps/)

Just curious, if anyone on this forum has jumped into vinyl and is new to it... so that it's not a matter of nostalgia... why did you do it and what is the experience like?

I'm a downloads only kind of guy now and I can't imagine collecting those huge discs, it's funny that they've made a come back (in the day and age of convenience, smartphones, tablets etc) but apparently not only is it happening but the UK sales show strong support for it not being about nostalgia.

I have been into it for a number of years now.  Fortunately for me, most of the vinyl I want the youngin's could care less about.  Here are my reasons:

1. Sound: If you buy the right vinyl, the sound is warm and clear.  However, I would add to this that it is the type of sound my ears grew up with.  Like finding that old favorite shirt....just pure comfort.  Certain labels sound great on my system (Six Eye mono Columbias, Mercury Stereo) while others are just aweful (later Columbia and many DG, even the old ones, which is surprising), so just buying any platter will not do.
2. Price: Since I am into the classical, it usually goes for a song in the shops.  For example, I came home with five albums last Friday (Six Eye Columbias) and it ran me about $17 after tax.  Usually each of the used is priced at $3-6, but a few can be a bit more.  Some on EBAY demand very high prices.  I stay clear of these.  However, most shops will give you a break and happy to see them sold.  Occasionally I will pop for some new audiophile vinyl, but only if I have a gift certificate. These run from about $25-50.  They do sound wonderful in most cases, but here you also need to know who is pressing them, because some are awful. 
3. Variety: I also love soundtracks and some of them are very expensive on disc, or do not exist.  Just a way to procure the music without breaking the bank.  And I believe I also have some classical that has not found its way to cd.  Could be wrong here.  For example, I got all of Moravecs Chopin from the 60's for about $10 in a sealed box set.
4. Nostalgia: I love the sound, smell, look ....heck, I might even try one for dinner down the road.  Even the cracks and pops are welcome.  The covers are great fun and I'll look at it and read the back when letting the platter spin.  I even have an old vinyl lounge chair from the 60's that I sit in when I put on a record.  In short, I make it an event as I usually have to clean the platter before playing it.  Some would find this a pain.  I call it fun.
5. Record Shows: Great fun and a blast to spend time with folks that love music and are into a hobby that you enjoy as well.  The brother and sisterhood is instant.

Storage is an issue.  However, I get rid of albums that I do not listen to or care for the sound of.  CDs I tend to hold on to.  Albums have to be special to take up valuable real estate.

Quote from: Todd on January 19, 2012, 05:41:08 PM


  To my ears, rock and jazz sound better on LPs.  Classical tends to benefit from digital, though well recorded, well pressed LPs of string quartets sound fabulous.  They sound warmer and almost as detailed. 

Agreed.  The bit of jazz and rock does seem to be less distorted as an overall descriptor.  Symphonies can be a bear to find without some distortion.  However, I have found some that work, like the labels I pointed out above.  Adding to your strings, I would add solo piano....at least on my system, which is not much.  I have been lucky with these.

Hey do you guys ever buy your vinyl online or does it just not work that way due to the shipping cost?

Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 05:34:42 PM
Hey do you guys ever buy your vinyl online or does it just not work that way due to the shipping cost?

Dicey.  Always nice to inspect.  I may go after a Bruno Walter Brahms No. 4 to complete my run....also there is the shipping, so the low price is kind of shot.  Plus, there is so much around here at the moment.  However, here are some Mercury's I might eventually buy on the net, as I do not mind paying top-dollar level for them.  They sound that good on my system.

I don't see any reason to pay a lot for records. Here in Los Angeles, there are plenty of ways to get great LPs for two bucks a disk or less. In fact,all you really need to do is spread the word that you collect vinyl and records will come to you for free from friends and acquaintences. Sift out what you want to keep and give the rest to Goodwill. 78s are even easier to get. If you have a truck and can haul them away, you can get more great music than you have time in your lifetime to listen to it all. For a music lover, that's the cat's pajamas!

Quote from: bigshot on January 20, 2012, 05:48:03 PM
I don't see any reason to pay a lot for records. Here in Los Angeles, there are plenty of ways to get great LPs for two bucks a disk or less. In fact,all you really need to do is spread the word that you collect vinyl and records will come to you for free from friends and acquaintences. Sift out what you want to keep and give the rest to Goodwill. 78s are even easier to get. If you have a truck and can haul them away, you can get more great music than you have time in your lifetime to listen to it all. For a music lover, that's the cat's pajamas!

Shhhh. ;D

Case in point.  Here is the Bruno I need to complete my run:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRUNO-WALTER-LP-Brahms-Symphony-No-4-1950s-Col-vg-/110799015123?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item19cc22ccd3#ht_2792wt_754

After shipping, about $13.

However, that is 3-4 times what I paid for the others and the condition is not exactly NM.

When CDs first came out, I was dragged kicking and screaming into the digital world. I loved my vinyl and wasn't excited about starting over with a new format. Eventually, the inevitable became obvious, and I began to enjoy and appreciate the advantages of CDs.
  Then, I got a CD recorder and started to rediscover my old lps. I was determined to transfer all of my vinyl to digital, and I think I got barely into the "B"s when I asked myself "why am I doing this?". Since I enjoyed hearing the albums again as I recorded them, why did I even need them all in CD format? So, I put a halt to that task and I now only record records I might want to listen to as CDs for a specific reason -- on a car trip, at work, etc.
  After returning to vinyl, I discovered what many have already mentioned. You can get good stuff cheap. There's a thrift shop nearby that I visit every few months or so and I've made some great album purchases there for only $1.00 each.
  My e-bay purchases are usually in the form of large lots. That helps keep the shipping charge per record down, and I've acquired collections of nice stuff at less than 50-cents per disc, including the shipping cost. The best have come from university libraries. Those albums generally have messy jackets with writing and rubber stamped info on them, but the vinyl is usually great. Sometimes, it appears that only one track on the whole lp has ever been played, indicating what the listening assignment was for that composer.
  As Bogey mentioned, storage is an issue, but if you have the space (as I do), the larger artwork and more easily readable liner notes are a plus.
  Also, like Bogey, I clean my records before playing them. I use diluted alcohol, an lp cleaning brush, and an old portable record player set at 78 speed that's solely dedicated to that purpose.

Quote from: Szykneij on January 21, 2012, 06:28:09 AM
and an old portable record player set at 78 speed that's solely dedicated to that purpose.

Nice.  I do not have a 78 setting....it has made me pass up many old beauties.

Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 05:34:42 PMHey do you guys ever buy your vinyl online or does it just not work that way due to the shipping cost?

I've ordered a few new LPs online from Amazon, and shipping is the same as with CDs.  For bigger hauls, I shop locally.  There are tons of used LPs at a local used CD & LP chain, and I haven't even begun to shop at a local LP emporium that has literally tens of thousands of LPs (and maybe even more than that).  If you live close to a medium or large city, you could buy more vinyl in one weekend than you would be able to listen to in a year, and for a surprisingly small amount of money.

....and it does not hurt to find the manger when the classical vinyl is marked at a higher price and say, " What can you do if I buy a stack from you?"  Usually they will note the dust that has collected on the covers and the price tags that were used 20 years ago when the store opened and cut you a further break.

Record shows are not quite as kind, at least in my experience.  I usually have to spend at least $10-20 (or more) for an lp as their selection are the ones that many seek and the ones showing up at the show (though only a few) are the ones seeking them.  Very rarely have I seen crates of classical as most dealers do not have the table space or want to load them up.  They usually leave them at the shop.  The most I have spent on one of these is $35 which was with a 40% off coupon that was sent to me in the mail.

I wouldn't say "collect"--but I do buy vinyl on rare occasions, particularly if the repertoire is otherwise unavailable. Actually, I just bought an Argo LP with Iain Hamilton's Cello Sonata and Elizabeth Lutyens' 6th String Quartet.

I have not added any titles to my 4000+ LP collection over the last 20 years ...

Quote from: Coopmv on January 28, 2012, 09:58:04 AM
I have not added any titles to my 4000+ LP collection over the last 20 years ...

I'm sure your shelves appreciate it. Thats about 1,000 pounds of vinyl they're already holding.

Quote from: Szykneij on January 28, 2012, 06:16:33 PM
I'm sure your shelves appreciate it. Thats about 1,000 pounds of vinyl they're already holding.

I built all the record shelves myself and they are super-sturdy with lots of reinforcement.  LP's are heavy ...

Quote from: Coopmv on January 28, 2012, 06:23:01 PM
I built all the record shelves myself and they are super-sturdy with lots of reinforcement.  LP's are heavy ...

That's for sure. At least vinyl is lighter than the shellac they used to use for the old 78 RPM recordings. If you had 4,000+ 10-inch recordings, I'd be worried about your floor holding up!   :)

Quote from: Coopmv on January 28, 2012, 06:23:01 PM
I built all the record shelves myself and they are super-sturdy with lots of reinforcement.  LP's are heavy ...

Word.

Quote from: Bogey on January 29, 2012, 04:38:36 PM
Word.

Oh that's how you racked up those ww activity points-- bench pressing your vinyl collection! ;) :D

Quote from: DavidW on January 29, 2012, 06:13:05 PM
Oh that's how you racked up those ww activity points-- bench pressing your vinyl collection! ;) :D

:D

Quote from: Bogey on January 29, 2012, 06:34:50 PM
:D

Bill,  How do you clean your records, just out of curiosity?

(http://media.wax.fm/images/discwasher-d4-record-cleaner.jpg)

Nothing fancy or home brewed, Stuart. :)

Quote from: Bogey on February 20, 2012, 01:40:01 PM
(http://media.wax.fm/images/discwasher-d4-record-cleaner.jpg)

Nothing fancy or home brewed, Stuart. :)

Same kit I have. Makes a big difference.

Here's what dirty and clean grooves look like under an electron microscope:

(http://www.dak.com/Reviews/imagesR10/3306_200-400strightdirty2_310.jpg)

(http://www.dak.com/Reviews/imagesR10/3306_GrooveDirty310_a2.jpg)

Re-visiting vinyl: a few thoughts

Interesting to read this thread. I've been back into LPs now for about a month. My feelings on the old LP vs. CD debate have already been summarized by another poster:

Quote from: Bogey on January 01, 2011, 08:27:09 PM
It varies.  Sometimes the cd sounds superior, sometimes the vinyl.  A poor piece of vinyl will sound poor....a poorly mastered cd will sound poor. 

That's about it, generally speaking. I don't think one format is intrinsically superior to the other.

But (still speaking generally), I do think they offer different kinds of experiences. I would summarize by saying that CD is more precise, while LP is more ambient. Another thing I've noticed: LPs seem to produce a larger sonic image. It just sounds bigger somehow, like you're sitting closer up in the hall. Strangely, few vinyl fans seem to mention this (they talk about "warmth" and so on, but not the total sonic picture). That said, I have plenty of "big"-sounding CDs, too.

Anyway, I am buying vinyl now not just because of sound quality. There are also these factors:

1. Some LPs were never released on CD;
2. Some were, but are hard to find;
3. Some were, but they botched the remastering or screwed up the reissue in some other way;
4. You can get some great recordings for dirt cheap;
5. LPs are fun to handle and pleasing to look at, and often come with better notes and documentation.

Also, the demands of proper LP listening make one a more attentive listener. If you have to clean the thing and brush it and position the stylus just so, and you are aware that playback is going to inevitably degrade it a tiny bit each time, it forces you to get more involved emotionally.

All things considered, CDs win on points (convenience and durability). But I'm really glad I've resurrected the vinyl option.

In the 80s, there was a lot more reason for classical music fans to collect LPs and 78s. The transfers of older material to CD were all over the map, from over processed sound that was like listening with pillows over your ears, to completely unprocessed sound where every click and pop was presented in all its organic glory. Lately, sound restoration technology has gotten a lot better. The new Toscanini box is better than any record by a long shot, and even the ultra budget Membran Furtwangler box has first class transfers.

Quote from: Velimir on June 04, 2013, 03:18:39 PM
Re-visiting vinyl: a few thoughts



Anyway, I am buying vinyl now not just because of sound quality. There are also these factors:

1. Some LPs were never released on CD;
2. Some were, but are hard to find;
3. Some were, but they botched the remastering or screwed up the reissue in some other way;
4. You can get some great recordings for dirt cheap;
5. LPs are fun to handle and pleasing to look at, and often come with better notes and documentation.

6. And the smell.  Yup.  Brings back wonderful kiddo memories for me hanging out with my dad and his turntable, or going to the record rental place with him, where he would grab a stack and bring them home to put on the reel to reel.  That smell of vinyl and the jacket are always something I will enjoy.

(http://rlv.zcache.com/i_love_the_smell_of_vinyl_in_the_morning_tshirt-p235851078288543935azgw0_325.jpg)

I still hold some vinyl because there are still are recordings that never made it to CD.   For instance, just about the entire stereo catalog of Mercury living presence has made it to CD, but only a few of the many Mono releases are available.  I do recognize that some vinyl has its own special sound (particularly Mercury), but I find that unique sound is still apparent when I digitize the LP and listen to the digital reproduction.  I find I enjoy the digitized version more because the temptation to fuss (worry about dust on the stylus, adjust tracking or anti-skate force, etc) is gone.

Quote from: Todd on January 19, 2012, 05:41:08 PM
Classical tends to benefit from digital, though well recorded, well pressed LPs of string quartets sound fabulous.  They sound warmer and almost as detailed.  The Ferras / Karajan LvB violin concerto sounds a bit less impressive orchestrally, but Ferras sounds better.  And Colin Davis' '70s Sibelius is superb in every way. 

I picked up the box set of that Davis Sibelius (after having the Philips Duos of it on CD), and yeah, it does sound fabulous, rather tactile with that "big" sound I described. Yummy listening. And another Philips box of Quartetto Italiano playing Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets backs up your other point...

And I, dear leader and originator of this glorious thread, am still collecting vinyl for my juche-based regime of sonic gloriousness and musical excellency. The splendidness of this undertaking will truly make me an immortal ruler of the people.

Now I am back in California. I recently found a near mint Furtwängler Beethoven 3 (Vienna Philharmonic) on LHMV (early 50s) for two bucks. Unbelieveable.

At the other end of the spectrum, the Esperanza Spalding new LP I got for Xmas last year would blow your head off.

Quote from: XB-70 Valkyrie on June 06, 2013, 09:21:04 PM
And I, dear leader and originator of this glorious thread, am still collecting vinyl for my juche-based regime of sonic gloriousness and musical excellency. The splendidness of this undertaking will truly make me an immortal ruler of the people.

OK, that's reason #7 for collecting vinyl.

QuoteNow I am back in California. I recently found a near mint Furtwängler Beethoven 3 (Vienna Philharmonic) on LHMV (early 50s) for two bucks. Unbelieveable.

The store I bought my turntable from acquired 6000 (count 'em!) LPs, almost all in mint or near-mint condition, from a recently deceased collector, who obviously didn't have time to listen to them all. I go in there and raid the place on a regular basis.

Quote from: Velimir on June 07, 2013, 06:52:29 AM

... a recently deceased collector, who obviously didn't have time to listen to them all. ..

That's the best kind of collector!  :P

I'm actually considering getting rid of my vinyl. I never really listen to it very much and recently something broke on my receiver and the right channel on the LP output just won't play. I don't have that big of an LP collection (only about 50 discs compared to well in excess of 2000 CDs) and everything I own exists on CD in the meantime (and I own most of it on CD as well). Anyone interested in buying my collection?

Quote from: MishaK on June 07, 2013, 07:11:59 AM
Anyone interested in buying my collection?

Depends. I might be interested. What sort of stuff do you have?

Alright.  I do not like to go "other forum" here unless I think it very worthy. I started this thread some time back and got some great info on classical lps and their sound depending on labels.  As stated, this stuff is not a science.  There is subjectivity along with the fact that all these laws do not apply evenly.  Having said that, enjoy:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/classical-vinyl-lps-what-labels-sound-the-best-rca-living-stereo-london-bluebacks-mercury.313997/

Quote from: sanantonio on June 07, 2013, 08:24:37 AM
I still have probably 1,000+ LPs, but don't play them that often.  I have made CDs of most of them.  But I recently bought a 180 gram LP of Leonard Bernstein's 1958 Le Sacre du Printemps on Columbia.  It cost me $23.00 and came with a free digital download, which I did, as well as immediately make a CD of it from the first play.

Now that I have taken the plunge with a new purchase I may buy some more.

Heck ya!

The funny thing about high end vinyl collectors is that they say it's all about the sound but it isn't. I was given a huge collection of minty Living Stereo, "six eye" Columbia, Mercury, etc. because the lady who owned it couldn't find anyone to even offer ten dollars for the batch. Why? Because the person who owned it wanted all of his records to match on the shelf, so he put them in matching custom sleeves and threw out the original covers. That rendered the whole collection worthless.

So much for high end Japanese collectors and their discernment for sound quality!

Quote from: bigshot on June 07, 2013, 10:20:54 AMThe funny thing about high end vinyl collectors is that they say it's all about the sound but it isn't. I was given a huge collection of minty Living Stereo, "six eye" Columbia, Mercury, etc. because the lady who owned it couldn't find anyone to even offer ten dollars for the batch. Why? Because the person who owned it wanted all of his records to match on the shelf, so he put them in matching custom sleeves and threw out the original covers. That rendered the whole collection worthless.

Out of curiosity, how does your anecdote apply to anyone other than the collector in question? 

This lady tried desperately to find a buyer for the collection at any price. Record dealers came and looked at it and wouldn't even haul it away for free. I finally took it because I like the music, but a lot of LP collectors are basically stamp collectors. The cover is the most important thing. I see examples like this all the time at record swap meets... Identical records with pristine vinyl, one with a clean cover, the other with a tear repaired with scotch tape. One is $50, the other $2.

Quote from: bigshot on June 07, 2013, 02:24:52 PMbut a lot of LP collectors are basically stamp collectors. The cover is the most important thing.

Perhaps, perhaps not.  There certainly are people who value things like covers highly, and it does increase resale value, but from one post you went from implying that all vinyl collectors worry about such things only or primarily to now just a lot.  I'm not sure you've made your case even now.  In any event, when I personally buy vinyl, and can inspect it first, I look at the record, with the sleeve receiving secondary consideration.  Why, I've even bought some pristine records with sleeves in tattered condition (eg, Eschenbach and Henze teaming up in Beethoven).  The avid vinyl collectors who go to the same used shops who I've met tend to want pristine condition everything, but focus on the records themselves.  Perhaps I just shop at the wrong time of day.

I have a large handful of Living Stereo lps that are from Europe, I believe.  The covers were made thin and flimsy and mine are coming apart like a cheap suit.  However, the vinyl is excellent, so here they stay. :)

Well there's a difference between garden variety "rekkid collectors" and high end vinyl collectors. I was speaking about the latter group.

I was at a party full of vinyl collectors once, and the conversation turned to the most any of them had ever paid for a single record... $125 for a single... $300 for an LP. I was the only one who collected 78s, so one of them turned to me and said, "Steve, you collect the REALLY old stuff. You must pay a LOT!" I replied, "Well, right now my limit is $2 a disk. When I run out of finding good 78s for under $2, I'll consider $3, but that isn't likely anytime soon."

Here is why I tend to shy away from buying online.  If sight inspected, this one looks beautiful.  Maybe a scratch here and there, and for only $1!

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_0305_zps5b5c2853.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/BillandLinda/media/IMG_0305_zps5b5c2853.jpg.html)

However, when played it sounds like sandpaper....really.  Too bad.  However, I will keep looking for a crappy cover with a nice pice of vinyl and swap them out.

On the other hand, I dropped $10 on this one (a blue back):

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_0306_zps29e63a96.jpg)

Fills the room with beautiful sound!

I don't know if I've got either of those, because none of mine have covers!

Quote from: bigshot on June 07, 2013, 04:21:02 PM
I don't know if I've got either of those, because none of mine have covers!

Well, if you have the Schumann in stereo and do not care for the performance, let me know.  I have a home for it.  It almost sounds like my copy is just "worn out:.  Does this make sense?

Now playing:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_0308_zps52fc8757.jpg)

Just for fun:

39 bids.

Sold for US $10,099.99

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LEONID-KOGAN-SILVESTRI-Beethoven-ORIG-b-s-SAX-2386-UK-1960-LP-MINT-/00/s/MTAwMFgxMzA5/z/J~IAAMXQlrxRc7W~/$T2eC16hHJHEFFl0d3gCQBRc7W+Z1ug~~60_57.JPG)

Quote from: bigshot on June 07, 2013, 03:52:19 PMWell there's a difference between garden variety "rekkid collectors" and high end vinyl collectors. I was speaking about the latter group.

Thanks for clarifying the difference.  Your differentiation is duly noted.  Let me will be blunt here: paying $300 for an LP is stupid, unless it has some special trait (eg, it was signed by Elvis, or something.)

Quote from: Bogey on June 07, 2013, 04:47:45 PM
Just for fun:

39 bids.

Sold for US $10,099.99

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LEONID-KOGAN-SILVESTRI-Beethoven-ORIG-b-s-SAX-2386-UK-1960-LP-MINT-/00/s/MTAwMFgxMzA5/z/J~IAAMXQlrxRc7W~/$T2eC16hHJHEFFl0d3gCQBRc7W+Z1ug~~60_57.JPG)

I have to wonder if it really did, or if it is just internet puffery.  I'm not saying that there aren't people who would pay that.  How do I find such suckers, er, customers? 

Quote from: Bogey on June 07, 2013, 04:47:45 PM
Just for fun:

39 bids.

Sold for US $10,099.99

(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/LEONID-KOGAN-SILVESTRI-Beethoven-ORIG-b-s-SAX-2386-UK-1960-LP-MINT-/00/s/MTAwMFgxMzA5/z/J~IAAMXQlrxRc7W~/$T2eC16hHJHEFFl0d3gCQBRc7W+Z1ug~~60_57.JPG)

Is the for real?  EMI has released this recording on Vinyl and it is currently available as an EMI LP.  (In the 50's EMI and Columbia had a partnership so the line between EMI and Columbia recordings was blurry).

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/S/A/SAX2386.jpg)
http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-violin-concerto-leonid-kogan-emi-columbia-lp-180g-vinyl.html

A bit above 16 pounds.

Now I'm pissed because I have this set and the recording ain't there

[asin]B00ACHXHII[/asin]

I guess in EMI speak "complete recordings of Silvestri" excludes concerto recordings where Silvestri conducts the orchestra.  :(

Wow. I guess that goes back to Velimir's reason #1.  I believe I have a Richter recording like that. 

I have just decided to donate my vinyl collection (about 4000 LP) to my home town library. I'm cataloguing it provisionally in this very moment and I'm in the 23/48 of my work with score 1907.

Quote from: mszczuj on June 09, 2013, 02:42:29 PM
I have just decided to donate my vinyl collection (about 4000 LP) to my home town library. I'm cataloguing it provisionally in this very moment and I'm in the 23/48 of my work with score 1907.

Am I supposed to know what it means to be "in the 23/48 of my work with score 1907?"

Quote from: mszczuj on June 09, 2013, 02:42:29 PM
I have just decided to donate my vinyl collection (about 4000 LP) to my home town library. I'm cataloguing it provisionally in this very moment and I'm in the 23/48 of my work with score 1907.

I am surprised that they will take them.  Our libraries here continue to downsize their materials and are moving more and more to free downloads that stay on your device for a certain amount of time.  Hopefully they care for them like you did as well as those that check them out.

Quote from: Bogey on June 09, 2013, 03:32:10 PM
I am surprised that they will take them.  Our libraries here continue to downsize their materials and are moving more and more to free downloads that stay on your device for a certain amount of time.  Hopefully they care for them like you did as well as those that check them out.

Likely they'll burn them to heat the building.

Libraries have annual book sales where most donated vinyl ends up. Everyone wins.

Quote from: bigshot on June 09, 2013, 03:57:08 PM
Libraries have annual book sales where most donated vinyl ends up. Everyone wins.

*raises glass of lemonade to the screen*

Quote from: Parsifal on June 09, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
Likely they'll burn them to heat the building.

Absolutely, the bastards.

Quote from: Parsifal on June 09, 2013, 03:22:07 PM
Am I supposed to know what it means to be "in the 23/48 of my work with score 1907?"

My records are on 48 shelves, I have described 1907 records from 23 shelves.

Quote from: Bogey on June 09, 2013, 03:32:10 PM
I am surprised that they will take them.  Our libraries here continue to downsize their materials and are moving more and more to free downloads that stay on your device for a certain amount of time.  Hopefully they care for them like you did as well as those that check them out.

Me too. My library stopped taking them long ago and has since gotten rid of its entire LP collection. Personally, I think it is a good move. It took up acres of space and I never saw anyone take one out in the later years anyway. They now have a good sized CD collection, though they have stopped buying too much new. I think it's the right move too - they have all the basic works (and then some really) and only add new stuff to fill out holes here and there.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 09, 2013, 09:43:52 PM
Me too. My library stopped taking them long ago and has since gotten rid of its entire LP collection. Personally, I think it is a good move. It took up acres of space and I never saw anyone take one out in the later years anyway. They now have a good sized CD collection, though they have stopped buying too much new. I think it's the right move too - they have all the basic works (and then some really) and only add new stuff to fill out holes here and there.

Yup.  Changing fast.  The last 20 or so books that my daughter read were all downloads to her Kindel.  It will be interesting to see what is under their roof in 10 yyears.  Our library has started going to recorded books on mp3 players that you check out, which come with headsets in addition to downloads.

Quote from: Bogey on June 10, 2013, 09:52:53 AM
Yup.  Changing fast.  The last 20 or so books that my daughter read were all downloads to her Kindle.  It will be interesting to see what is under their roof in 10 yyears.  Our library has started going to recorded books on mp3 players that you check out, which come with headsets in addition to downloads.

I wish my library (in Pittsburgh) would start buying new books in Kindle version. I only have access to books that are years old, mostly series mysteries, the Kellermans and the like. If I want something new, it's available to me exclusively in book format. At first, btw, I kind of resented the Kindle for replacing the book -- I still haven't embraced downloading music, and doubt I ever will -- but once I got used to being able to change the type size of what I was reading, I was hooked on Kindle. And Amazon assures me that any book I buy will always be accessible to me via "the cloud," as long as I own a functioning Kindle.  I just wish more library books were available. The only thing I don't like about my Kindle is having to charge the thing for hours every book or so.

As for LPs, I still have about 200, none classical -- I HATE the ticks and pops on classical music -- but no turntable. Though I don't do downloads, I have 46 days worth of music I already own on CD on my computer, which has become my nearly exclusive music source. I doubt I'll ever buy another turntable. Now, if I would just get something to send all that music into my bedroom...

I wrote this back in 2007:

Quote from: Valentino on September 01, 2007, 12:04:25 AMI buy used LPs if the music is interesting. Sometimes I find gems on this format that are not on CD. But I don't buy many.

Times have changed. I got hooked on the vinyl only Deutsche Grammophon The Original Source (https://www.the-original-source.com/) series last year. Way too expensive of course, but wonderfully tactile. The haul so far (no, I haven't bought all releases):
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4937-jpeg.1030962/)
Open in separate tab to read the titles (Steinberg Boston is Holst Planets, R. Strauss Zarathustra, and Hindemith Mathis der Maler/Concert Music for Strings and Brass)
Oh well. I'm skipping the 17 LP Bruckner Karajan symphonies box scheduled for August. Presto had the for Universal Japan 4-9 as hirez download for less than 1/10 of the price, so I'm not a complete audiophool yet.

Quote from: Valentino on June 10, 2024, 07:50:19 AMI wrote this back in 2007:Times have changed. I got hooked on the vinyl only Deutsche Grammophon The Original Source (https://www.the-original-source.com/) series last year. Way too expensive of course, but wonderfully tactile. The haul so far (no, I haven't bought all releases):
(https://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/attachments/img_4937-jpeg.1030962/)
Open in separate tab to read the titles (Steinberg Boston is Holst Planets, R. Strauss Zarathustra, and Hindemith Mathis der Maler/Concert Music for Strings and Brass)
Oh well. I'm skipping the 17 LP Bruckner Karajan symphonies box scheduled for August. Presto had the for Universal Japan 4-9 as hirez download for less than 1/10 of the price, so I'm not a complete audiophool yet.

Nice haul so far! The only recording I don't know is the Verdi Requiem with Karajan. The rest are top-drawer in every way.

It's got Janowitz and it is recorded in Jesus-Kristus-Kirche with it's perfect acoustics for choirs. Dies Irae blows your hair back. A must hear in any format, but the sense of space in these TOS masters I haven't heard from 70s DG before..

Quote from: Valentino on June 10, 2024, 10:05:52 PMIt's got Janowitz and it is recorded in Jesus-Kristus-Kirche with it's perfect acoustics for choirs. Dies Irae blows your hair back. A must hear in any format, but the sense of space in these TOS masters I haven't heard from 70s DG before..

Very nice, but I'll stick with my little plastic round things (i. e. CDs). ;D

Quote from: Valentino on June 10, 2024, 10:05:52 PMIt's got Janowitz and it is recorded in Jesus-Kristus-Kirche with it's perfect acoustics for choirs. Dies Irae blows your hair back. A must hear in any format, but the sense of space in these TOS masters I haven't heard from 70s DG before..

Isn't it Mirella Freni on that recording?

Indeed. Sorry about that. Freni's rather good though. :P