...is the apparent high-and-mighty sense of "injustice" prevalent among supporters of particular composers not in the core repertoire. Can you not just be satisfied with the fact that you have discovered them and are able to enjoy their music for yourself? We are never ever going to get a world where all the Beethoven, Mahler and Shostakovich programmes are dropped off the face of the earth for programmes full of goodness-knows-who-else. It's everywhere, I tell you! Yes, a lot of "neglected" composers wrote very very worthy music...and we can hear it all the times we like. People's tastes are different. You're not going to get the triumphant moment you're hoping for when Composer-x receives a standing ovation they're probably not able to experience.
Maybe your username should be "buzzkill." :)
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 20, 2023, 09:14:51 AM...is the apparent high-and-mighty sense of "injustice" prevalent among supporters of particular composers not in the core repertoire. Can you not just be satisfied
No!
I will only be satisfied when all GMGers include Boulez in their lists of top three composers! ;D
The same argument was probably made to Mendelssohn when he tried to revive Bach, or to Bernstein when he decided to bring Mahler out of the shadows (those were once neglected composers).
Today, all musicians face a problem of lack of recognition no matter how talented they are. If by promoting them great music can come to the surface, it benefits the composer, the performer, the audience. Everyone. I don't see how any one loses.
And I certainly don't want yet another Beethoven symphony concert no matter how much I like him. Whether it be new blood or more esoteric talents of the past, some of the best concerts I've attended were off the beaten track.
Quote from: ritter on April 20, 2023, 10:33:35 AMI will only be satisfied when all GMGers include Boulez in their lists of top three composers! ;D
Now I'm seriously considering leaving GMG. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on April 20, 2023, 11:17:42 AMI certainly don't want yet another Beethoven symphony concert no matter how much I like him.
Ditto.
Quote from: ritter on April 20, 2023, 10:33:35 AMI will only be satisfied when all GMGers include Boulez in their lists of top three composers! ;D
(* chortle *)
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 20, 2023, 09:14:51 AM...is the apparent high-and-mighty sense of "injustice" prevalent among supporters of particular composers not in the core repertoire. Can you not just be satisfied with the fact that you have discovered them and are able to enjoy their music for yourself? We are never ever going to get a world where all the Beethoven, Mahler and Shostakovich programmes are dropped off the face of the earth for programmes full of goodness-knows-who-else. It's everywhere, I tell you! Yes, a lot of "neglected" composers wrote very very worthy music...and we can hear it all the times we like. People's tastes are different. You're not going to get the triumphant moment you're hoping for when Composer-x receives a standing ovation they're probably not able to experience.
I think you are completely mis-reading the motivation behind admirers/supporters of "neglected" composers. It is not about forcing the world to align themselves with my musical tastes. It is about preserving and appreciating a legacy. For the bulk of people engaged with Classical Music this is in the role as listeners. For us to listen, there has to have been performances. For there to have been performances, the musicians have to have heard about/studied/learnt the music. If the music is little known, this process will have started from a single conversation/discovery online or in a library which in turn comes from discussions about the specific composer or work having occured. So you need people enthusing about Art away from the 'core' to initiate that discussion. Also, a very natural human condition is to want to share experiences - especially those that particularly engage you. So there is no suprise that there is a "pieces that have blown you away" thread here!
Personally, I have no sense of "injustice" and am certainly not "high and mighty" in assuming that what I think about anything carries a jot more value than anyone else. However, I do enjoy enthusiasm and passion - so if someone makes a strong case for a piece or work, I'm motivated to seek that out and then form my own opinion. Perhaps you are lucky to know exactly what you like and never seek or need suggestions of things outside of your current knowledge. If so - enjoy.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 20, 2023, 11:07:49 PMI think you are completely mis-reading the motivation behind admirers/supporters of "neglected" composers. It is not about forcing the world to align themselves with my musical tastes. It is about preserving and appreciating a legacy. For the bulk of people engaged with Classical Music this is in the role as listeners. For us to listen, there has to have been performances. For there to have been performances, the musicians have to have heard about/studied/learnt the music. If the music is little known, this process will have started from a single conversation/discovery online or in a library which in turn comes from discussions about the specific composer or work having occured. So you need people enthusing about Art away from the 'core' to initiate that discussion. Also, a very natural human condition is to want to share experiences - especially those that particularly engage you. So there is no suprise that there is a "pieces that have blown you away" thread here!
Personally, I have no sense of "injustice" and am certainly not "high and mighty" in assuming that what I think about anything carries a jot more value than anyone else. However, I do enjoy enthusiasm and passion - so if someone makes a strong case for a piece or work, I'm motivated to seek that out and then form my own opinion. Perhaps you are lucky to know exactly what you like and never seek or need suggestions of things outside of your current knowledge. If so - enjoy.
I very much agree with Roasted Swan. For me it's about the pleasure of introducing listeners to music which they might not otherwise be aware of. If they enjoy it that's great but, if not, that's fine too.
Now, back to Klaus Egge ;D
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2023, 06:00:11 AMI very much agree with Roasted Swan. For me it's about the pleasure of introducing listeners to music which they might not otherwise be aware of. If they enjoy it that's great but, if not, that's fine too.
Now, back to Klaus Egge ;D
Yes, it is about sharing the love. Benjamin Dale a composer I have this minute posted is a good example, I think worth a shout so I have shouted. If no one takes notice, or worse does and think he is crap that is OK as what the point posting otherwise?
I was never able to decide whether my interests and tastes fell within the mainstream or not. When exploring new music and discovering new composers, I just went with what I fancied in the early days. It often used to surprise me what was considered 'a must have' or a staple, compared to pieces or composers that I really enjoyed, but which I later discovered were either 'off the beaten track', or not good enough to be considered important. It hasn't ever really bothered me, in the same way that I would call myself a metalhead, yet have hardly heard anything by Metallica, Slayer or Megadeth, but I can happily bore you for hours with back catalogues from Winterfylleth, Old Corpse Road or Solstafir. I like what I like, and am quite happy to enthuse tediously about how certain artists or composers are massively overrated and overplayed, while other unjustly (IMHO) neglected unknowns deserve their hour in the sun.
I think that makes me a music lover rather than a pretentious know-it-all. I hope I am pretty good-natured with my rabbit holes. My wife suggests it shows that I am an enthusiastic eccentric who likes sharing things that I believe would benefit the whole universe if they listened to them, read them and tasted them. Not all verbs here relate to music, of course :).
I dispute the eccentricity of it all, of course. Usually.
Oh, and participating in GMG makes it worse, of course, because the enthusiasms of members here don't always align with the narrower tastes of other boards and communities. I find that a plus, and somewhat endearing.
PS... I can see why every interest area has a core repertoire, but am far more interested in the outliers. Another Beethoven symphony cycle? More Mahler? How many more interpretations do we need? Its a bit like listening to Classic FM (classical radio station). Ok for a few months, but after a while it seems to be just the same recycled playlists to meet a populist need. A bit like the NOW That's What I call Music pop releases. Nice, no doubt. Meets a market. No criticism from me. I want something new, or different. Something I haven't heard that I think others would enjoy, maybe.
I know that a core repertoire makes such things possible, but I want the fresh and challenging :)
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 24, 2023, 07:35:53 AMMy wife suggests it shows that I am an enthusiastic eccentric who likes sharing things that I believe would benefit the whole universe if they listened to them, read them and tasted them.
You should have made your handle
The Enthusiastic Eccentric! :D
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 20, 2023, 09:14:51 AM...sense of "injustice" prevalent among supporters of particular composers not in the core repertoire. Can you not just be satisfied with the fact that you have discovered them and are able to enjoy their music for yourself?
I suppose the fact of your being able to discover them at all depends on somebody else who has believed that they are the greatest composer in the world, and has moved heaven and earth to get their music performed and recorded. To take a specific example: I find Havergal Brian an interesting and original composer; especially as I get older I find what sounds to me like his "f*** you" attitude more and more appealing, although I'm far from placing him anywhere near the first rank of composers. Now if I'd gone around to orchestras saying "You really ought to perform something by Brian - he's... quite good... ish", no-one would have listened. It took someone like the late Malcolm MacDonald, who believed Brian was one of the 3 greatest composers of the 20th century* to go round cajoling, talking and writing until people really paid attention, and thanks to him we have a complete recorded symphony cycle to give moderate pleasure to lukewarm folk like me.
*the other two were Busoni and Schoenberg.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2023, 06:00:11 AMI very much agree with Roasted Swan. For me it's about the pleasure of introducing listeners to music which they might not otherwise be aware of. If they enjoy it that's great but, if not, that's fine too.
Now, back to Klaus Egge ;D
Indeed. We're it not for the discussion here on GMG, I might never have cared a shriveled fig for
Amy Beach, Frank Martin,
Bax or
Martinů. And I might never have heard of
Mompou.
Quote from: Maestro267 on April 20, 2023, 09:14:51 AM...is the apparent high-and-mighty sense of "injustice" prevalent among supporters of particular composers not in the core repertoire. Can you not just be satisfied with the fact that you have discovered them and are able to enjoy their music for yourself? We are never ever going to get a world where all the Beethoven, Mahler and Shostakovich programmes are dropped off the face of the earth for programmes full of goodness-knows-who-else. It's everywhere, I tell you! Yes, a lot of "neglected" composers wrote very very worthy music...and we can hear it all the times we like. People's tastes are different. You're not going to get the triumphant moment you're hoping for when Composer-x receives a standing ovation they're probably not able to experience.
You titled this thread "Major major bugbear." IMO it is your intolerance which is the bugbear.
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 24, 2023, 07:46:33 AMAnother Beethoven symphony cycle? More Mahler? How many more interpretations do we need?
None at all, if you ask me. Valid also for Brahms and Tchaikovsky. If no new cycle of their symphonies appeared anymore, the world would lose nothing. ;D
OTOH, how many complete sets of Beethoven's, Brahms's and Tchaikovsky's Lieder / Songs / Romances are there? I know of only one for each.
Quote from: Florestan on April 24, 2023, 09:32:52 AMOTOH, how many complete sets of Beethoven's, Brahms's and Tchaikovsky's Lieder / Songs / Romances are there? I know of only one for each.
Yeah, and that is more than enough. ;D
Quote from: Franco_Manitobain on April 24, 2023, 09:40:33 AMYeah, and that is more than enough. ;D
Don't make me regret your return, Ray... ;D >:D :P
Quote from: Florestan on April 24, 2023, 09:46:36 AMDon't make me regret your return, Ray... ;D >:D :P
All in good fun! ;)
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 24, 2023, 07:35:53 AMI think that makes me a music lover rather than a pretentious know-it-all.
These days I've been reading an interesting Ph. D. dissertation titled
"Repetitive Novelty: Italian Opera in Paris and London in the 1830s and 1840s". In the chapter dedicated to discussing the critical reception of
Bellini's
I Puritani premiere, I encountered these lines:
Italian music's appeal to instinct and its ability to act on the emotions apparently without engaging the mind made it an ideal un-intellectual art form, its appreciation requiring no special training but only openness to emotion and to pleasure. Etienne Delécluze cast Italian music and simple listening pleasure as almost pre-lapsarian, a precious form of aesthetic experience that academics were trying to take away from innocent listeners. Music, he wrote, is:
the only art in which the power of instinct is stronger than that of reflection...in
fact, it is the only art whose productions seduce, carry away, and transport us
without our knowing why or how. Leave us at least this innocent happiness.(emphasis mine).
Reading your post, I couldn't help being reminded of that (with which, needless to say, I agree 100%).
Quotefact, it [Italian music] is the only art whose productions seduce, carry away, and transport us
without our knowing why or how.
In fact, this does not tally with my experience, it is not the only music, let alone the only
art. Nonsense on stilts.
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 24, 2023, 10:14:56 AMIn fact, this does not tally with my experience, it is not the only music, let alone the only art. Nonsense on stilts.
My dear Karl, you misread it. The Etienne Delécluze (whoever he was) quote, although extracted from a review of
I Puritani's premiere, refers to music in general, not specifically Italian operatic music. Please, read again. And also, please consider the time and place.
Quote from: foxandpeng on April 24, 2023, 07:35:53 AMI like what I like, and am quite happy to enthuse tediously about how certain artists or composers are massively overrated and overplayed
Overplayed, yes. Overrated, no --- I can't think of a single one of the canonical composers who is overrated. The proof for that is that as time went by, new names have been added to the canon but no old name has been deleted from it. ;)
Of course, I'm talking about the canon as universally crystallized since the late 19th century and during the 20th century. In the preceding centuries the canon (or rather canons) varied widely and wildly, depending on geography.
Quote from: vandermolen on April 24, 2023, 06:00:11 AMI very much agree with Roasted Swan. For me it's about the pleasure of introducing listeners to music which they might not otherwise be aware of. If they enjoy it that's great but, if not, that's fine too.
Amen to this.
Quote from: San Antone on April 24, 2023, 09:22:49 AMYou titled this thread "Major major bugbear." IMO it is your intolerance which is the bugbear.
And also this. Not to be involved in a hateful discussion, but that member looks too of a bitter person to me.
It's more from the point of what is it going to do? We can't change the tide of music away from the warhorses. But as this thread has descended into personal attacks on me I shall close it.