Mr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.
Was Rossini right or wrong?
chuckle... Most all composers do that.
Of course, Rossini should have started out with "IMHO".
Quote from: Owen David on May 24, 2023, 05:01:08 PMMr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.
Was Rossini right or wrong?
Ask my avatar. ;D
He also said with respect to
Lohengrin:
One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.My favorite
bon mot about
Wagner is by
David Randolph, though:
Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.
Quote from: Owen David on May 24, 2023, 05:01:08 PMMr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.
Was Rossini right or wrong?
Dead wrong. So many jealous composers back then...
Everyone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.
Quote from: DavidW on May 25, 2023, 05:00:07 AMDead wrong. So many jealous composers back then...
Completely agree, since
Der fliegende Holländer, everything Wagner composed was masterful.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2023, 05:42:46 AMEveryone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.
I'd say, for works prior to The Ring, cut everything right after the overture. For the Ring, cut everything save the purely orchestral numbers. ;D
Quote from: DavidW on May 25, 2023, 05:00:07 AMSo many jealous composers back then...
Wagner first and foremost, with his almost pathological jealousy of Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer. ;D
Rossini, otoh, was the most successful and celebrated operatic composer of the first half of the 19C, retired in full glory and enjoying a luxurious, hedonistic lifestyle. He had zero reasons to be jealous of Wagner. :D
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 09:54:35 AMWagner first and foremost, with his almost pathological jealousy of Mendelssohn and Meyerbeer. ;D
Rossini, otoh, was the most successful and celebrated operatic composer of the first half of the 19C, retired in full glory and enjoying a luxurious, hedonistic lifestyle. He had zero reasons to be jealous of Wagner. :D
O ciel, che noia! Good evening,
Andrei.
So he was only wrong, not jealous.
I doubt that Rossini listened to the "real Wagner", i.e. Tristan and later as this was at the end of Rossini's life or later.
Does anyone know if a particular work prompted that remark? Probably Tannhäuser?
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 09:44:26 AMI'd say, for works prior to The Ring, cut everything right after the overture. For the Ring, cut everything save the purely orchestral numbers. ;D
So you'd take the Forest Murmurs from Siegfried over Hagen's call to the vassals or Brünnhilde's immolation?
And do Meistersinger, Parsifal, and Tristan get a pass, or are they too to be reduced to their preludes?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2023, 05:42:46 AMEveryone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.
Well they always cut Hamlet and no one seems to mind. I've never of a theatregoer demanding a refund on their ticket for not getting the full monty.
These two seem even more critical than Rossini:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG6UllZwj9c
(At 02:04)
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 04:02:39 AMAsk my avatar. ;D
He also said with respect to Lohengrin: One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.
My favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.
Good one! I've definitely experienced that sort of thing with some plays!
Quote from: Owen David on May 26, 2023, 12:10:38 PMWell they always cut Hamlet and no one seems to mind. I've never of a theatregoer demanding a refund on their ticket for not getting the full monty.
False analogy between verbal and musical structures. And you haven't told me what passages in Wagner's works you'd cut.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 26, 2023, 04:16:27 PMFalse analogy between verbal and musical structures. And you haven't told me what passages in Wagner's works you'd cut.
Where did I say I wanted to cut passages in Wagner? And my analogy was between revered artists not structures. So wrong on both counts.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on May 25, 2023, 05:42:46 AMEveryone says Wagner should be cut. Problem is, nobody ever says what passages.
Cuts in Wagner used to be common, as you can hear many in old broadcasts from the Met and elsewhere. The first U.S. performances of Götterdämmerung at the Met, cut the scenes (and obviously the roles) of the Norns, Waltraute, and Alberich. When Simon Rattle conducted Tristan at the Met in 2016, they made a cut in Act II, not long after Tristan's entrance. Even at Bayreuth, Wieland Wagner (and Karl Böhm) cut Gutrune's solo scene in Act III of Götterdämmerung, but restored it the next summer.
I prefer my Wagner uncut.
There are common "stage cuts" in Tristan, Act II, parts (about 10min or so) of the long love duet. AFAIK done at least partly to leave the singers some strength for the last act (Isolde has a longer rest before the end, but Tristan obviously not)
Quote from: Jo498 on May 28, 2023, 01:59:49 AMThere are common "stage cuts" in Tristan, Act II, parts (about 10min or so) of the long love duet. AFAIK done at least partly to leave the singers some strength for the last act (Isolde has a longer rest before the end, but Tristan obviously not)
I've also heard cuts in Act III, to spare Tristan, both broadcasts with Melchior and a 1971 broadcast with Jess Thomas.
Didn't Beethoven say of Rossini that he would have been an excellent composer if he'd put in some work?
I seem to prefer to listen to Wagner. The theatre bit is quite dull save for the Ring with the machine at the Met.
Quote from: Owen David on May 24, 2023, 05:01:08 PMMr. Wagner has beautiful moments but bad quarters of an hour.
Was Rossini right or wrong?
Is an opinion right or wrong?
Quote from: david johnson on May 25, 2023, 02:30:15 AMchuckle... Most all composers do that.
Exactly: Composers having opinions about other composers is non-news ...
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 04:02:39 AMMy favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.
Minus the derision, this is the nub, isn't it?—either one is happy to let
Wagner take the time, or one is not.
I don't often listen to it, but I think
Parsifal is largely worth the time.
Quote from: Jo498 on May 25, 2023, 10:08:19 AMSo he was only wrong, not jealous.
After all, had
Rossini simply said, "Wagner's music is not to my taste," where's the entertainment value in that?
Quote from: Valentino on May 30, 2023, 04:44:53 AMI seem to prefer to listen to Wagner. The theatre bit is quite dull [....]
I'd call his self-laudatory
Gesamtkunstwerk better in theory than practice.
Wagner the poet and dramaturg was not in anything like the same league as
Wagner the composer.
My post about Rossini being jealous was just trolling Florestan btw. It was tongue in cheek.
Quote from: DavidW on June 01, 2023, 05:33:56 AMMy post about Rossini being jealous was just trolling Florestan btw. It was tongue in cheek.
So was my reply, David. ;)
Karl is right: what composer X says about composer Y might be amusing or not --- but should never be taken seriously.
Quote from: Florestan on June 01, 2023, 12:53:20 PMSo was my reply, David. ;)
Yeah I could tell you got it!
Quote from: Florestan on May 25, 2023, 04:02:39 AMAsk my avatar. ;D
He also said with respect to Lohengrin: One can't judge [it] after a first hearing, and I certainly don't intend to hear it a second time.
My favorite bon mot about Wagner is by David Randolph, though: Parsifal is the kind of opera that starts at six o'clock and after it has been going for three hours, you look at your watch and it says 6.20.
Youch--to both!
PD
Quote from: Jo498 on May 25, 2023, 10:08:19 AMSo he was only wrong, not jealous.
I doubt that Rossini listened to the "real Wagner", i.e. Tristan and later as this was at the end of Rossini's life or later.
Does anyone know if a particular work prompted that remark? Probably Tannhäuser?
Good point! It would be interesting to see which works he was able to listen to during his lifetime and also which of those he actually heard.
PD