... and I am a Holstoholic.
Although I have been listening to "classical" music since my teens I have previously mainly been into various and wildly differing types of music. Prog rock (Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Steve Hillage, Eno , etc.) and German electronic music (Klaus Schulze, Tangerine Dream), cold/new wave, the shoegazing likes of Mazzy Star and Lush, grungers Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains... and many many more.
I have always liked Italian Baroque and my mother first introduced me to the Planets when I was a teenager. Of course I knew the mega hits of Dukas, Ravel, Saint-Saëns and Gershwin but never really got in to classical except for contemporary composers Philip Glass and Wim Mertens.
A couple of years ago I was watching TV with my girlfriend and some music was playing and she asked if I knew what it was. I did. It was Jupiter. At that time I had the Karajan/Berlin recording on CD, which I put on and thought to myself... the version we just heard on TV was way better than this. And that's how it all started. I began my search for the perfect Planets (which I have not yet found despite now owning 20-ish CDs). Along the way I have discovered a passion for other Holst music and other composers: RVW, Bax, Ravel, Respighi, Magnard, Saint-Saëns, Debussy, Jongen, Delius, Martinů, Ives, etc. and more recently Holmboe and Lutosławski.
With a few exceptions I'm not very keen on music form the periods between baroque and post romantic. And I'm really not a fan of opera or of many pieces which include words. Despite being a big fan of Vaughan Williams I have never listened to more than a few seconds of his first symphony. I just can't stand it. However his 7th is fine because there are no words... same as with the fabulously aquatic Neptune. I know... I'm weird.
I still buy and listen to CDs. I don't use streaming services for two reasons. 1/ I don't have the equipment and 2/ I feel like streaming is like renting... you pay and pay but in the end you still don't own anything and it can all be taken away from you.
So that's the musical me. Now being a member of this forum I'm sure my horizons will expand and can't wait to learn from the knowledgeable people here.
Welcome!
A member here (who has not been active recently) shares your enthusiasm for Holst's Planets, and created a website where he attempted to rank every recording. https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/
I used to, like you, not like music with words. However starting a few years ago I have begun to appreciate it.
Anyway, welcome to the forum!
Welcome to the forum, nice to meet you! :)
That's great you love Holst's music, he's one of my favourite composers too.
Welcome Ian! Seems like you'll fit right in!
Welcome Ian! Hope that you enjoy it here. :) And I'm looking forward to reading your posts.
PD
Quote from: Ian on January 16, 2024, 01:28:36 PM... and I am a Holstoholic.
Although I have been listening to "classical" music since my teens I have previously mainly been into various and wildly differing types of music. Prog rock (Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Steve Hillage, Eno , etc.) and German electronic music (Klaus Schulze, Tangerine Dream), cold/new wave, the shoegazing likes of Mazzy Star and Lush, grungers Pearl Jam and Alice in Chains... and many many more.
I have always liked Italian Baroque and my mother first introduced me to the Planets when I was a teenager. Of course I knew the mega hits of Dukas, Ravel, Saint-Saëns and Gershwin but never really got in to classical except for contemporary composers Philip Glass and Wim Mertens.
A couple of years ago I was watching TV with my girlfriend and some music was playing and she asked if I knew what it was. I did. It was Jupiter. At that time I had the Karajan/Berlin recording on CD, which I put on and thought to myself... the version we just heard on TV was way better than this. And that's how it all started. I began my search for the perfect Planets (which I have not yet found despite now owning 20-ish CDs). Along the way I have discovered a passion for other Holst music and other composers: RVW, Bax, Ravel, Respighi, Magnard, Saint-Saëns, Debussy, Jongen, Delius, Martinů, Ives, etc. and more recently Holmboe and Lutosławski.
With a few exceptions I'm not very keen on music form the periods between baroque and post romantic. And I'm really not a fan of opera or of many pieces which include words. Despite being a big fan of Vaughan Williams I have never listened to more than a few seconds of his first symphony. I just can't stand it. However his 7th is fine because there are no words... same as with the fabulously aquatic Neptune. I know... I'm weird.
I still buy and listen to CDs. I don't use streaming services for two reasons. 1/ I don't have the equipment and 2/ I feel like streaming is like renting... you pay and pay but in the end you still don't own anything and it can all be taken away from you.
So that's the musical me. Now being a member of this forum I'm sure my horizons will expand and can't wait to learn from the knowledgeable people here.
Welcome! I note that you do not say "a
recovering Holstoholic."
Welcome! The Holmboe thread is here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11711.0.html) by the way ;)
Hello, Ian, and welcome. Thank you for taking the time to write that lovely introduction, covering so much territory. I suspect you'll have a great time here. ("Holstoholic" has to be one of the best words of the week.)
-Bruce
Welcome - we have similar musical tastes.
Quote from: Ian on January 16, 2024, 01:28:36 PMRVW, Bax, ... and more recently Holmboe and Lutosławski.
With a few exceptions I'm not very keen on music form the periods between baroque and post romantic. And I'm really not a fan of opera or of many pieces which include words. Despite being a big fan of Vaughan Williams I have never listened to more than a few seconds of his first symphony. I just can't stand it. However his 7th is fine because there are no words... same as with the fabulously aquatic Neptune. I know... I'm weird.
Yeah. You are playing my tune. With these, at least :)
Looking forward to hearing more from you and engaging with your listening! Welcome...
Quote from: Karl Henning on January 16, 2024, 04:12:58 PMWelcome! I note that you do not say "a recovering Holstoholic."
Haha... indeed not! I'm not far off a full suite of Planets per day if I'm honest. Add to that the superb "Perfect Fool", "Beni Mora", and so many others!
In fact I feel the need to attend a HA meeting right now 8)
Quote from: Ian on January 17, 2024, 03:42:56 AMHaha... indeed not! I'm not far off a full suite of Planets per day if I'm honest. Add to that the superb "Perfect Fool", "Beni Mora", and so many others!
In fact I feel the need to attend a HA meeting right now 8)
There's an enchanting CD on Chandos of Holst's ballet music with Hickox. Do you know this one?
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QbHg5Wtdxrw/Va9O6B0NO3I/AAAAAAAADGM/SVEWmtjc7rI/s1600/cover.jpg)
PD
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2024, 04:11:22 AMThere's an enchanting CD on Chandos of Holst's ballet music with Hickox. Do you know this one?
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QbHg5Wtdxrw/Va9O6B0NO3I/AAAAAAAADGM/SVEWmtjc7rI/s1600/cover.jpg)
PD
If he doesn't, I'd strip him of the Holstoholic title!
Quote from: Karl Henning on January 16, 2024, 04:12:58 PMWelcome! I note that you do not say "a recovering Holstoholic."
There is no recovering once you take a Holst-ic appreciation beyond The Planets. :-X
Welcome to the Forum, Gustav...err... Ian! 8)
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2024, 05:04:54 AMThere is no recovering once you take a Holst-ic appreciation beyond The Planets. :-X
(* chortle *)
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on January 17, 2024, 04:11:22 AMThere's an enchanting CD on Chandos of Holst's ballet music with Hickox. Do you know this one?
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QbHg5Wtdxrw/Va9O6B0NO3I/AAAAAAAADGM/SVEWmtjc7rI/s1600/cover.jpg)
PD
Thanks for the recommendation. I know of it... but I also wrote in my first post that with very few exceptions I really don't like opera or classical music with words. Vocalisations are fine generally as in Neptune or Sinfonia Antartica.
Quote from: Ian on January 17, 2024, 05:44:54 AMThanks for the recommendation. I know of it... but I also wrote in my first post that with very few exceptions I really don't like opera or classical music with words. Vocalisations are fine generally as in Neptune or Sinfonia Antartica.
By the way, does this include words in a language you don't understand? I almost never enjoy listening to music with English words (even pop), but if someone is singing in French or Italian, suddenly I can look past the meaning and just listen to it as abstract music...
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2024, 05:59:39 AMBy the way, does this include words in a language you don't understand? I almost never enjoy listening to music with English words (even pop), but if someone is singing in French or Italian, suddenly I can look past the meaning and just listen to it as abstract music...
It's any language. It's not even because they use actual words but to me, more often than not, it sounds more like yelling than singing and gets in the way of the music. Whereas a nice quiet choir like in Neptune enhances the mystical aquatic atmosphere of the piece. Or in Sinfonia Antartica the vocalisations add to the mystery and fear.
When I hear "Behold the sea" I just cringe.
I hope this is making some sense.
I know what those notes are!
Quote from: Brian on January 17, 2024, 05:59:39 AMBy the way, does this include words in a language you don't understand? I almost never enjoy listening to music with English words (even pop), but if someone is singing in French or Italian, suddenly I can look past the meaning and just listen to it as abstract music...
It sounds like you would join Premont in "watching" an opera with eyes closed! ;D
Quote from: Ian on January 17, 2024, 06:37:46 AMWhen I hear "Behold the sea" I just cringe.
I sing that out loud to my pet dog when listening to the Sea Symphony. behold the sea... ITSELF!!!!! :D
Quote from: Ian on January 17, 2024, 06:37:46 AMWhen I hear "Behold the sea" I just cringe.
Makes perfect sense. I just want to say that now when I hear that line, it makes me think of a music personality who, as a joke, likes to sing "Behold, it's me!" ;D
Quote from: DavidW on January 17, 2024, 07:21:01 AMI sing that out loud to my pet dog when listening to the Sea Symphony. behold the sea... ITSELF!!!!! :D
:o You should be reported to the RSPCA ;)
Seriously though the music is great by ITSELF and doesn't need that ... noise. I'm just glad he didn't feel the need to add such things to his 5th, which btw is another of my obsessions but Vaughanwilliamsaholic is a bit of a mouthful and doesn't have the same
je ne sais quoi. 8)
I do like how the Sea Symphony is always the bridge too far for British Neoromantic fans! :laugh:
I also like singing along to Handel's Messiah. :D
Firstly: Greetings Ian, and welcome. 8)
Fyi, my favorite The Planets remains Previn's 1974 effort with the LSO on EMI/Warner, with Boult's 1968 EMI version in second place.
Secondly: As to RVW's Symphony No. 1, l must say it is near and dear to me, having performed the work back in 1985 as a chorister. My fascination with Leaves of Grass probably factors into my receptivity to the work as well. I hope you'll come to find enjoyment with it at some point.
Quote from: LKB on January 18, 2024, 09:31:47 AMFirstly: Greetings Ian, and welcome. 8)
Fyi, my favorite The Planets remains Previn's 1974 effort with the LSO on EMI/Warner, with Boult's 1968 EMI version in second place.
Secondly: As to RVW's Symphony No. 1, l must say it is near and dear to me, having performed the work back in 1985 as a chorister. My fascination with Leaves of Grass probably factors into my receptivity to the work as well. I hope you'll come to find enjoyment with it at some point.
Thank you. I just confess I haven't heard either of those performances. I have the Boult 1978 but with all due respect to Sir Adrian, it's nothing to write home about. Thanks for the suggestions though, I will seek them out and give them a listen.
For vocal music, it's not just RVW's 1st. I find that often when there are sung words and instruments, the vocalists seem to want to take over the whole soundscape. But never say never :)
Quote from: Mapman on January 16, 2024, 01:36:35 PMWelcome!
A member here (who has not been active recently) shares your enthusiasm for Holst's Planets, and created a website where he attempted to rank every recording. https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/
I used to, like you, not like music with words. However starting a few years ago I have begun to appreciate it.
Anyway, welcome to the forum!
Thank you.
Yes I know Peter's Planets and have spent many hours reading his insightful and humorous reviews. I have interacted with Peter a few times. We don't share the same opinions but what a dreadful place it would be if we all had the same taste and opinions. He likes the Dutoit performance... although it's superbly recorded I find the performance rather sterile and passionless.
Quote from: Ian on January 19, 2024, 12:39:18 PMThank you. I just confess I haven't heard either of those performances. I have the Boult 1978 but with all due respect to Sir Adrian, it's nothing to write home about. Thanks for the suggestions though, I will seek them out and give them a listen.
For vocal music, it's not just RVW's 1st. I find that often when there are sung words and instruments, the vocalists seem to want to take over the whole soundscape. But never say never :)
That's a good stance to take. There was a time, some forty years ago, when I found Shostakovich impossible to listen to despite having performed his First Symphony. But that all changed after Decca released Haitink's recording of Symphony no. 5 with the RCO... I
instantly went from 0 to 100% interest, and very quickly found myself memorizing several of his symphonies.
I'm linking two of my favorite vocal performances for your consideration, because I think you may find them more accessible than what you've encountered thus far ( the instrumental contributions are not overwhelmed by the singers, with all of the artists are on more-or-less equal footing ).
https://youtu.be/XXbP055Hx2I?si=CTA0cVgIEmnZNl6j
https://youtu.be/yuuI-MMt9lg?si=B-sDNnk5dFskD0cE
I hope you enjoy them. 8)
Welcome Ian!
For a few years in high school, I listened exclusively to Pink Floyd. Wish You Were Here and The Final Cut remain personal favorites of mine.
Like you, I enjoy grunge a lot. I always loved Pearl Jam and Nirvana. Alice in Chains and Soundgarden took a bit longer to click, though. I listened to Superunknown and Dirt a lot during the pandemic. Such a shame about Chris.
And I have a few Mazzy Star CDs, when the mood is right, their music is incredibly soothing.
Quote from: Ian on January 19, 2024, 12:44:06 PMThank you.
Yes I know Peter's Planets and have spent many hours reading his insightful and humorous reviews. I have interacted with Peter a few times. We don't share the same opinions but what a dreadful place it would be if we all had the same taste and opinions. He likes the Dutoit performance... although it's superbly recorded I find the performance rather sterile and passionless.
Yeah that list is awful. He found the most dull as dishwater recordings and put them on the top and buried the actual exciting ones. He strikes as the type of person that would think that having a cup of chamomile and reading the Pilgrim's Progress would be almost too much excitement for one day! :P
Quote from: George on January 20, 2024, 04:53:14 AMWelcome Ian!
For a few years in high school, I listened exclusively to Pink Floyd. Wish You Were Here and The Final Cut remain personal favorites of mine.
Animals for me!
Obscured by Clouds
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 04:59:59 AMYeah that list is awful. He found the most dull as dishwater recordings and put them on the top and buried the actual exciting ones.
mmmm, well yes. I think it's a good resource which I found humorous but indeed I don't agree with the ranking. I mean he put Steinberg at 48. Fourty-Eight!!!! It's the best I've heard so far. To add insult to injury the Hickox at 19 is a strange choice. It's the worst I've heard to date... except maybe for both the Karajan attempts.
I just saw one of my comments on his site:
My review of this one would read: "John Eliot Gardiner, The Bringer of Boredom". 8)
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 05:02:13 AMAnimals for me!
Did you like the recent remix? I prefer the original.
Quote from: Ian on January 20, 2024, 05:21:14 AMObscured by Clouds
Nice one. I came to it only a few years ago.
Greetings
Ian!Welcome to GMG!
I note your aversion to Classical Music with words, but therefore must ask about your rock-'n'-roll groups. Do you avoid their songs and listen only to their instrumentals?
I have a rule for songs: "The fewer the words, the better."
In my cantata,
Exaudi me, the text is very short, with a basic meaning found in prayers, and is used more as a vehicle for the human voice to express emotions, rather than to tell about emotions or a story.
Karl Henninghere at GMG has used some of my poems in his works: these poems tell stories, but I used as few words as possible to convey them.
Karl's music adds great commentaries and, so to speak, an unconscious mind to the text.
See:
Quote from: Ian on January 20, 2024, 05:41:11 AMI just saw one of my comments on his site:
My review of this one would read: "John Eliot Gardiner, The Bringer of Boredom". 8)
I haven't heard that one, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gardiner insisted upon no vibrato, and then Hurwitz got an ulcer! :laugh:
Quote from: George on January 20, 2024, 05:53:26 AMDid you like the recent remix? I prefer the original.
I actually haven't heard the remix, only the original!
Quote from: Cato on January 20, 2024, 07:00:34 AMGreetings Ian!
Welcome to GMG!
I note your aversion to Classical Music with words, but therefore must ask about your rock-'n'-roll groups. Do you avoid their songs and listen only to their instrumentals?
I have a rule for songs: "The fewer the words, the better."
In my cantata, Exaudi me, the text is very short, with a basic meaning found in prayers, and is used more as a vehicle for the human voice to express emotions, rather than to tell about emotions or a story.
Hi Leo,
Thank you!
I can listen to "rock" (using them term very loosely here) with or without vocals. But again, I prefer when the human voice is used to complement the instruments, not overpower or be in conflict with them. I was going to write that maybe poetry should remain written or spoken, music should remain music but then I like Jacques Brel, Syd Barrett and Nick Drake who were all poets as well as musicians. And it's not a question of words or vocalisations, Lisa Gerrard vocalising along with Klaus Schulze's electronic music may seem a strange combination but it works very well.
To be perfectly honest I can't even explain to myself why I don't get along with vocals and classic (again using the term very loosely) music. In the pieces you posted for example, and with all due respect to yourself and Karl, the voice and music seem to clash rather than live in harmony. I hear a constant fight between them in my head. I hope that makes sense and it's just my own opinion for what it's worth, I would not presume to make an artistic judgement on your work. I understand what you mean about expressing emotions and therein may be my problem... more often than not I don't perceive these emotions. Having said that, in the second piece I find there is less "conflict" and therefore is, to me, more pleasurable. I think that somewhere along the line something as trivial as the mix or recording quality plays a role.
In contrast, in Philip Glass's Music In Twelve Parts, especially in Part 1, the organs and voices merge perfectly. There is no conflict there.
But, to be clear, I am not averse to the human voice. It can be just beautiful, such as in these pieces or as I mentioned previously in RVW's 7th symphony, Holst's Neptune and even some opera such as Enrico Caruso singing
Je Crois Entendre Encore is just magnificent.
Thank you, and others, for sharing your views and experiences on the subject. To learn about music from knowledgeable people and broaden my horizons is why I joined the forum and we are off to a great start! :)
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 07:20:48 AMI actually haven't heard the remix, only the original!
Quote from: Ian on January 20, 2024, 08:51:33 AMHi Leo,
Thank you!
...To be perfectly honest I can't even explain to myself why I don't get along with vocals and classic (again using the term very loosely) music. In the pieces you posted for example, and with all due respect to yourself and Karl, the voice and music seem to clash rather than live in harmony. I hear a constant fight between them in my head. I hope that makes sense and it's just my own opinion for what it's worth, I would not presume to make an artistic judgement on your work. I understand what you mean about expressing emotions and therein may be my problem... more often than not I don't perceive these emotions. ...
...I think that somewhere along the line something as trivial as the mix or recording quality plays a role.
Thank you, and others, for sharing your views and experiences on the subject. To learn about music from knowledgeable people and broaden my horizons is why I joined the forum and we are off to a great start! :)
Thank you for the nice reply!
Depending on many factors, the composer may in fact want a division between the text and the music: some composers do not treat the voice as another instrument in an ensemble, but rather see their music as an "unconscious mind" commenting on the text, rather than complementing it.
Your
Gesualdo and
Vaughn Williams examples are good ones of the "meshing."
Here is a link to my cantata for 9-voices
Exaudi me: the "performance" is by a computer (MIDI), but without words, you can perhaps sense how I treated the voices as instruments.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nz8wxfjl9m2xksfu3ywn2/Exaudi-Me.mp3?rlkey=nll0vvp19cks0dovd72k7urag&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nz8wxfjl9m2xksfu3ywn2/Exaudi-Me.mp3?rlkey=nll0vvp19cks0dovd72k7urag&dl=0)
If you can read music, here is the score, edited by
Karl Henning:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yzdan2ds7ub86q6b9fqhv/Schulte-Exaudi-Me-with-keybd.pdf?rlkey=adhkiqpcfurrq9pkxukgstjag&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yzdan2ds7ub86q6b9fqhv/Schulte-Exaudi-Me-with-keybd.pdf?rlkey=adhkiqpcfurrq9pkxukgstjag&dl=0)
Let us also not forget that counterpoint is not the opposite of harmony, but instead a great ingredient for fine music. The best vocal music and chamber music sounds like a dialogue instead of just people singing or playing in unison.
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 03:14:11 PMLet us also not forget that counterpoint is not the opposite of harmony, but instead a great ingredient for fine music. The best vocal music and chamber music sounds like a dialogue instead of just people singing or playing in unison.
Indeed. And listening to a conversation can be a soothing experience. Unlike hearing a loud disagreement which is how I often perceive vocals in classical music.
Quote from: Cato on January 20, 2024, 02:04:47 PMDepending on many factors, the composer may in fact want a division between the text and the music: some composers do not treat the voice as another instrument in an ensemble, but rather see their music as an "unconscious mind" commenting on the text, rather than complementing it.
I understand that and it's an very interesting point. But what if my own mind is already creating its own commentary on the text. In this case you can easily imagine the cacophony which could occur in my mind. I'm not saying it's the case by again it's a very good and interesting point you have brought up and I'll try to listen next time in a more meditative way. Trying to switch off my own thoughts may enhance the experience.
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 03:14:11 PMLet us also not forget that counterpoint is not the opposite of harmony, but instead a great ingredient for fine music. The best vocal music and chamber music sounds like a dialogue instead of just people singing or playing in unison.
You remind me of something said by
Mahler: "There should be no harmony, only counterpoint." 😇
Quote from: Ian on January 20, 2024, 11:56:11 PMI understand that and it's a very interesting point. But what if my own mind is already creating its own commentary on the text. In this case you can easily imagine the cacophony which could occur in my mind. I'm not saying it's the case by again it's a very good and interesting point you have brought up and I'll try to listen next time in a more meditative way. Trying to switch off my own thoughts may enhance the experience.
Thank you: yes, everyone listens to music in their own way. Neutrality will be difficult quite often:
Schubert's song called e.g.
The Linden Tree - because of its name - will conjure forth certain ideas in the listener's mind before any notes are sounded.
Or...maybe not! ;D The title may mean nothing to some people. I can guarantee that certain people I know would have no preconceived notions at all about such a song!
Certainly
Schubert's song called
The Elf King may not match notions derived from the title, e.g. of fairies and happy little humanoids dancing with flowers or sitting on toadstools, when the opening notes are heard!
So, neutrality may be difficult, but it is not impossible, especially with music simply titled by its form (Sonata, Symphony, et al.)
For the songs above:
Quote from: Ian on January 20, 2024, 11:56:11 PMTrying to switch off my own thoughts may enhance the experience.
Wine can do that! ;)
Quote from: DavidW on January 21, 2024, 05:30:02 AMWine can do that! ;)
So that's where I've been going wrong! 8)
Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2024, 07:20:12 AMI wouldn't be surprised if Gardiner insisted upon no vibrato, and then Hurwitz got an ulcer!
Oh, the heart bleeds!
Do I detect a little anti-Hurwitz sentiment here? He may be a bit quirky at times but as a reletive newcomer to classical music I find he is a very useful source of information.
The only thing that I'm not too keen on is when he seems to deliberately mispronounce names and says who cares about the correct pronunciation... well the people who carry those names care for a start. I find it disrespectful. But we all have our faults.
Quote from: Ian on January 21, 2024, 10:43:45 AMDo I detect a little anti-Hurwitz sentiment here? He may be a bit quirky at times but as a reletive newcomer to classical music I find he is a very useful source of information.
Anything you find of value: hit it.
I always liked this one:
A late welcome to GMG, Ian. You have the perfect avatar for a Holstaholic! Many low string bows shiver in fear when they see it.