Just saw ArkivMusic.com listing new Naxos single CDs for $20 each.
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2024, 01:16:39 PMJust saw ArkivMusic.com listing new Naxos single CDs for $20 each.
Vox "Audiophile Edition" titles sell for full price now, so we live in bizzaro world when it comes to recording prices.
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2024, 01:16:39 PMJust saw ArkivMusic.com listing new Naxos single CDs for $20 each.
I guess the days of 3 for $20 Naxos sales are over.
Quote from: Brian on January 12, 2024, 01:16:39 PMJust saw ArkivMusic.com listing new Naxos single CDs for $20 each.
Well they're $13.50 on Presto, and Presto has a way better track record on actually shipping what you order and having decent customer service!
Quote from: Daverz on January 12, 2024, 05:53:04 PMI guess the days of 3 for $20 Naxos sales are over.
Perhaps they had an "end of year financial crunch" and needed some quick funds. If so, apparently they got what they needed ;)
Quote from: Daverz on January 12, 2024, 05:53:04 PMI guess the days of 3 for $20 Naxos sales are over.
yup I used to get 6 for $20 bucks at Tower in the 1990s
Quote from: Daverz on January 12, 2024, 05:53:04 PMI guess the days of 3 for $20 Naxos sales are over.
I guess music you can play for the rest of your life is worth more than a takeaway meal now. Who would have thought?
Quote from: Madiel on January 15, 2024, 02:47:00 AMI guess music you can play for the rest of your life is worth more than a takeaway meal now. Who would have thought?
Not only that but Naxos isn't a bargain label like it was in the 90s. They sign well respected conductors, orchestras, ensembles and performers.
Quote from: DavidW on January 15, 2024, 05:21:54 AMNot only that but Naxos isn't a bargain label like it was in the 90s. They sign well respected conductors, orchestras, ensembles and performers.
Jean-Luc Tingaud has been a real find and I'm excited for his Franck/Chausson symphonies. He is keeping alive the French conducting style of decades past. (Like Denève before him on Naxos!)
Quote from: DavidW on January 15, 2024, 05:21:54 AMNot only that but Naxos isn't a bargain label like it was in the 90s. They sign well respected conductors, orchestras, ensembles and performers.
They frequently signed GOOD performers then. Whether or not they're well respected.
I'm somewhat with Hurwitz in that some of the comments about the cost of music really puzzle me. How much do people think all of that effort to create art is worth? Sometimes I suspect the reason people want each individual disc to be so cheap is because they buy discs so indiscriminately.
Quote from: Madiel on January 15, 2024, 12:41:58 PMSometimes I suspect the reason people want each individual disc to be so cheap is because they buy discs so indiscriminately.
I think you just called out half the forum! :laugh:
Quote from: DavidW on January 15, 2024, 01:16:00 PMI think you just called out half the forum! :laugh:
You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.
Quote from: Madiel on January 15, 2024, 12:41:58 PMThey frequently signed GOOD performers then. Whether or not they're well respected.
I'm somewhat with Hurwitz in that some of the comments about the cost of music really puzzle me. How much do people think all of that effort to create art is worth? Sometimes I suspect the reason people want each individual disc to be so cheap is because they buy discs so indiscriminately.
For me the attraction of Naxos's low prices was the way it made it cheaper to investigate unfamiliar composers, especially contemporary and US ones. (Remember I don't download.) I'm far more inclined to buy a CD of unfamiliar music if it's $10 or $12 because it does not feel like a big waste of money. But if the price is $18 or $20 I'm going to think about buying it much longer and maybe decide not to get it.
Quote from: JBS on January 15, 2024, 07:00:11 PMFor me the attraction of Naxos's low prices was the way it made it cheaper to investigate unfamiliar composers, especially contemporary and US ones. (Remember I don't download.) I'm far more inclined to buy a CD of unfamiliar music if it's $10 or $12 because it does not feel like a big waste of money. But if the price is $18 or $20 I'm going to think about buying it much longer and maybe decide not to get it.
You don't download, but do you stream? Because that's my method of investigation these days. Prior to that it was iTunes 90 second samples (when I had no intention of buying downloads). And go back far enough it was a mix of reading the Penguin Guide and actually listening to discs in a music store...
But yeah, I don't think I ever took the view that the way to try things out was to buy them, not least because of how expensive that could become. Buying things was only when I had at least a reasonable degree of confidence that I wasn't wasting my money. A small handful of duds still glare at me accusingly because I've never got around to disposing of them.
Quote from: JBS on January 15, 2024, 07:00:11 PMFor me the attraction of Naxos's low prices was the way it made it cheaper to investigate unfamiliar composers, especially contemporary and US ones. (Remember I don't download.) I'm far more inclined to buy a CD of unfamiliar music if it's $10 or $12 because it does not feel like a big waste of money. But if the price is $18 or $20 I'm going to think about buying it much longer and maybe decide not to get it.
You might want to look at an inflation calculator. That logic I also followed into not buying trade paperbacks for a long time, until I finally discovered that they weren't that much more expensive than I used to pay for mmpbs back in the day once adjusted for inflation. The $20 price point used to be a premium price point, but now it is more like low midrange.
But still again Presto sells for $13, wouldn't be surprised if jpc was the same. Arkiv is never been great for pricing except for what is on sale.
Quote from: DavidW on January 16, 2024, 03:13:05 AMYou might want to look at an inflation calculator.
Inflation doesn't really apply to recorded music. Napster killed that decades ago. No one buys physical media. Yeah, yeah, I know, some people do, and vinyl sales in the UK just hit the highest level since the early 90s, etc. But sales data don't lie; physical media are an afterthought. When one factors in file sharing that still goes on (eg, via Plex or something similar legitimately, many other sites illegitimately), the idea of paying money for physical media is dead and it ain't coming back. If one accounts for inflation, shellac discs were vastly more expensive than CDs when they dominated the market, and streaming costs peanuts in comparison. For me, the idea of paying $13 for a Naxos or Vox optical disc is preposterous and I dismiss it out of hand. I have not purchased a physical Naxos disc is I don't know how many years, and I only purchase downloads when they are less than $5/disc equivalent. Vox must be cheaper yet. Here and there something may be worth premium price (>$15 nominal), but that's rare. In general, if something is expensive, it gets streamed only. Recorded music is a cheap commodity now, which is great. It is progress. It benefits consumers. It does kind of obliterate the petty invidious distinction that used to accompany owning this, that, or the other physical recording, though. This forum does not represent the recorded music purchasing population at large - and that's in high income countries.
Kenneth Woods posted this yesterday morning on X/Twitter.
QuoteConvenience is THE modern trap.
I've got a collection of 1000s of CDs, but end up playing music via computer 99.9% of the time. Just popped in a CD for the first time a few months, and shocked at how much better it sounds than EVERYTHING I've listened to lately. Gotta do better
A $50 doodad allows for 16/44.1 quality streaming via any DAC with an optical in. CDs can't sound better than that.
Quote from: Todd on January 16, 2024, 04:20:18 AMNo one buys physical media.
And yet, that is what we were discussing.
Quote from: Todd on January 16, 2024, 04:20:18 AMThis forum does not represent the recorded music purchasing population at large
It doesn't need to. It doesn't matter whether we are "no one". We are ourselves.
You seem to be the only member of this forum that regularly dismisses the value of the forum of which you continue to be a part.
I don't think that Todd is meaning to denigrate the forum (I think he still buys music himself), he is just pointing out that cd consumption here is far higher than it is in the general populace. And that is definitely true. Even my boomer parents stopped buying cds a very, very long time ago.
But we'll keep on going! Attend concerts, buy downloads or physical media and support those artists!! For me that strategy and streaming are not mutually exclusive. :)
Quote from: DavidW on January 16, 2024, 05:11:02 AM...I think he still buys music himself...
In terms of CDs, basically just box sets and the occasional LvB sonata cycle from foreign markets. Maybe an odd collectible. In terms of downloads, I buy 'em cheap with some regularity.
Also, I don't buy DVDs or BDs. Or whale oil.
Quote from: DavidW on January 16, 2024, 05:11:02 AMhe is just pointing out that cd consumption here is far higher than it is in the general populace
Which, with respect, is not a relevant point to the discussion unless one is trying to negate the value of the discussion.
A discussion that is happening on a forum where CD consumption is higher than usual. Seems the best place for the discussion, then.
Much as I'd expect a higher rate of discussion about Buffy the Vampire Slayer on a Sarah Michelle Gellar fan forum than I would on the rest of the internet. Imagine if someone on such a forum popped up to say "no one watches Buffy anymore".
A specialist forum inherently has a skewed view of which topics are of interest compared to the general populace. That's the damn purpose of it. Telling us that we're not like other people ignores how/why we ended up here in the first place. When people who know me from other contexts comment on me still buying CDs or just on me listening to classical music, well, they're reflecting the general populace. But when someone who themselves presents as part of the unusual minority keeps telling us all how weird or quaint he thinks we are, that habit is itself weird.
Quote from: Madiel on January 16, 2024, 05:29:51 AMWhich, with respect, is not a relevant point to the discussion unless one is trying to negate the value of the discussion.
I thought the discussion was about the economics of CDs - who if anyone buys them, and how they should be priced. Maybe "we can't use ourselves as a guide" doesn't answer the question but it's relevant, surely.
It's been a long time now and I can't remember the details but I once talked to a Naxos booklet writer who said that it was fairly common for a CD to sell a few hundred copies worldwide, total, ever, and that if you sold 150 in a week that was good enough to get on bestseller charts. I bet Paul from Presto could enlighten us a bit here. It makes sense that, if the artist/label can expect to make pennies for streaming fees over an album's lifetime, they'd want to bill the CD shoppers more. Especially with physical distribution being one of the steepest, most expensive hurdles (as Warner's box sets keep proving).
Talking to artists locally in the Dallas area, recording an album has become such a passion project - requiring finding donors and grant funding, carving out the time for unpaid labor, etc. - that it's more like a capstone to your legacy than a normal part of a working career. I say all that, but actually I'm full of questions about the economics of the business. Like, if recording is so onerous and difficult and expensive, how do all these super-obscure artists keep producing dozens of records per month on labels like MSR, Centaur, and Genuin? Is anyone in the business making money besides Naxos and Universal? How much money does the label save by selling a download vs. a physical CD?
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2024, 05:47:36 AMI thought the discussion was about the economics of CDs - who if anyone buys them, and how they should be priced. Maybe "we can't use ourselves as a guide" doesn't answer the question but it's relevant, surely.
It's been a long time now and I can't remember the details but I once talked to a Naxos booklet writer who said that it was fairly common for a CD to sell a few hundred copies worldwide, total, ever, and that if you sold 150 in a week that was good enough to get on bestseller charts. I bet Paul from Presto could enlighten us a bit here. It makes sense that, if the artist/label can expect to make pennies for streaming fees over an album's lifetime, they'd want to bill the CD shoppers more. Especially with physical distribution being one of the steepest, most expensive hurdles (as Warner's box sets keep proving).
Talking to artists locally in the Dallas area, recording an album has become such a passion project - requiring finding donors and grant funding, carving out the time for unpaid labor, etc. - that it's more like a capstone to your legacy than a normal part of a working career. I say all that, but actually I'm full of questions about the economics of the business. Like, if recording is so onerous and difficult and expensive, how do all these super-obscure artists keep producing dozens of records per month on labels like MSR, Centaur, and Genuin? Is anyone in the business making money besides Naxos and Universal? How much money does the label save by selling a download vs. a physical CD?
This is certainly germane to the discussion. One of the arguments I've seen a few times is that physical discs are now inherently a premium product, and that they'll be priced accordingly (though I personally still think the prices we are talking about are pretty darn cheap for a thing that can last many decades), and that the quality of the presentation is a key differentiation.
I still maintain the view, though, that coming in with the assertion that nobody buys discs is basically saying "who gives a fuck what they cost, it's irrelevant" in the very place that people were considering the cost relevant. I'm well aware that most of my friends have no interest in knowing the cost of CDs. But the people here? They had an interest. That's how the conversation started.
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2024, 05:47:36 AMLike, if recording is so onerous and difficult and expensive, how do all these super-obscure artists keep producing dozens of records per month on labels like MSR, Centaur, and Genuin?
Vanity and self-promotion.
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2024, 05:47:36 AMIs anyone in the business making money besides Naxos and Universal?
Does UMG make money on its classical division? I'd love to see business line P&Ls.
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2024, 05:47:36 AMHow much money does the label save by selling a download vs. a physical CD?
There is no additional production cost for downloads, and distribution cost would be minimal (storage and computation costs if outsourced to AWS or Azure; some type of operational cost, and depreciation, if files are stored in-house). I suspect margins are better for downloads, but I could be wrong.
Quote from: Madiel on January 16, 2024, 06:01:21 AMThis is certainly germane to the discussion. One of the arguments I've seen a few times is that physical discs are now inherently a premium product, and that they'll be priced accordingly (though I personally still think the prices we are talking about are pretty darn cheap for a thing that can last many decades), and that the quality of the presentation is a key differentiation.
I agree with this. I was also just thinking about the price difference of what I consider to be a premium physical product (new BIS albums, with their "ecopak," detailed booklets, paper sleeves, and inner artwork) and the price difference that arises just from physical distribution across the planet ($20 Amazon US, $22 ArkivMusic, versus $15.25 from Presto, often dropping below $11 on sale).
Quote from: Todd on January 16, 2024, 06:04:04 AMVanity and self-promotion.
Well, I know of no greater vanity than that of obscure Japanese or Korean pianists who record complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas that nobody buys. >:D ;D :P
Quote from: Florestan on January 16, 2024, 06:52:55 AMWell, I know of no greater vanity than that of obscure Japanese or Korean pianists who record complete sets of Beethoven's Piano Sonatas that nobody buys. >:D ;D :P
Most of the cycles are on major or established labels. Many of the artists are more popular in their home markets, in so far as classical musicians are popular anywhere. There is more than a little cultural chauvinism in your post.
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2024, 05:47:36 AMIt's been a long time now and I can't remember the details but I once talked to a Naxos booklet writer who said that it was fairly common for a CD to sell a few hundred copies worldwide, total, ever, and that if you sold 150 in a week that was good enough to get on bestseller charts.
That would explain why streaming is taking over record labels revenue stream despite paying out only peanuts.
It's worth noting that different countries have different cultural attitudes to this/are changing at different rates. I'm sure the situation has changed further given how long it's been (fixing that this year), but on my last trip to Europe it was noticeable how physical product had almost completely disappeared in Denmark but could still be found a bit in Germany. It wasn't exactly abundant in the latter, but there was a definite difference. I'm not just talking about the classical niche, finding pop CDs in Danish stores was extremely unlikely. I kept finding vinyl without a CD section.
Here in Australia I can still rely on one retailer to have a decent amount of pop music to buy (the classical section is pretty sad though hey, that famous Australian Eloquence series will be there).
Quote from: DavidW on January 16, 2024, 07:57:02 AMThat would explain why streaming is taking over record labels revenue stream despite paying out only peanuts.
IMHO a solution could be a print on demand service with a limited number of copies paid for in advance if successful they would need to be reissued.
Umm...are there any new recordings to post?
Quote from: Roy Bland on January 16, 2024, 05:36:21 PMIMHO a solution could be a print on demand service with a limited number of copies paid for in advance if successful they would need to be reissued.
Arkiv used to do that! They called them Arkiv cds!
Quote from: Bachtoven on January 16, 2024, 05:46:07 PMUmm...are there any new recordings to post?
Tomorrow morning me or one of my colleagues will probably just move this digression to another thread, and we will be back on track!