Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 28, 2024, 08:36:53 PMMy main problem is Mäkelä is the difficulty in finding those Finnish diacritics to spell his last name.
I don't find it that difficult to find various diacritics of other languages. On Mac I use Edit/Emoji & Symbols. Then I search for the "root" symbol (e.g. seaching for "a" gives á, à, ä, â, ã, ă, ǎ,...) It is basically just knowing how to do it in the system you are using. One can even make a text file listing these symbols for copy-pasting. Or you can use https://finnish.typeit.org (https://finnish.typeit.org/)
What's more difficult is knowing how to pronounce a word/name. In this regards Finnish language is pretty easy and systematic (compared to English). Finnish vowel sounds are like the vowels in these english words:
A = c
ar
E = ev
en
I =
even
O = d
og
U = tho
usand
Y = s
ymbol
Ä = c
at
Ö = b
ird
We also have Å, the Swedish "o" for Swedish names which are common in Finland (e.g. the first president of Finland K. J. Stålberg). It is pronounce like O.
The letter Y is always a vowel in Finnish language: Yogurt is "jogurtti" and Yemen is "Jemen" in Finnish. Finnish language doesn't have silent letters, because we are silent people anyway. :D Consonants are very similar to other languages and there are only a few exceptions such as the "ng" combination having its own sound for ease of pronunciation. In Finnish language the emphasis is always on the first syllable. Finnish language uses vowel harmony: A, O and U don't exist in the same words as Ä, Ö and Y do. Compound words are exception (e.g. jääkaappi meaning refrigerator is the combination of jää meaning ice and kaappi meaning cabinet).
Pronuncing Finnish is pretty simple and systematic if you know the rules, but non-native speakers tend to struggle a lot with double consonants such as "tt" in "jogurtti." You need to "stop" for a short moment between the two consonants (jogurt...ti) and this takes some time and practise to get used to in order to make the pronunciation rhythmically correct.
In english words are pronunced differently from how they are written. As we have seen above, Finnish language doesn't really have this, but we have two versions of the language: Written (formal) Finnish and spoken (informal) Finnish. When you apply for a job, you use written Finnish, but when you are chatting with your friends in a bar you use spoken Finnish. Here is an example of the difference of written and spoken Finnish:
Is Matti planning to go fishing next weekend:
Written:
Aikooko Matti mennä kalastamaan ensi viikonloppuna?Spoken:
Meneeks Matti kalaan viikonloppuna?Spoken language cuts corners:
Aikooko (is --- planning) and
mennä (go) are combined into the spoken word
meneeks (is --- planning to go). Kalastamaan (fishing) is shortened.
Ensi (next) is implied (has to be the next weekend if not specified) and unnecessary in spoken version.
Learning written Finnish can be really difficult (the grammar!) for foreigners and then there is spoken Finnish as a bonus! ??? Compared to all this linguistic horror just spelling Finnish last names is actually nothing. ;)
Thank you, 71dB. I was making a joke (yes, I know how to produce the diatritics), but apparently it bombed. However, I now know how to say "refrigerator" in Finnish and how to ask if Matti is going fishing next weekend (presumably to store his catch in the refrigerator before cooking it), so there is a net gain.
Quote from: 71 dB on March 29, 2024, 04:28:21 AMY = symbol
Are you sure? AFAIK,
y in Finnish is more or less the equivalent of
ü in German, like in
München --- very different from the
y in the English word
symbol.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 05:35:21 AMAre you sure? AFAIK, y in Finnish is more or less the equivalent of ü in German, like in München --- very different from the y in the English word symbol.
I imagine 71dB knows how to pronounce his native language. But to return this to matters Hurwitzian, let us not forget that Hurwitz is adamant in saying that pronunciation doesn't matter so long as we know what one is referring to. And so he will always pronounce Lutosławski as Lutoslovsky rather than properly as Lutoswovsky. (On the other hand, since he knows German and French, Hurwitz is always scrupulously accurate in pronouncing these languages correctly.)
Once on the forum I was deleted for pointing out that Boulez (like Berlioz) should be pronounced with final Z, not without as in Boulay. I trust you see my point.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 05:59:36 AMI imagine 71dB knows how to pronounce his native language.
I never claimed otherwise, nevertheless the y in the English word symbol is not the same as the Finnish y.
Judge for yourself:
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 05:59:36 AMlet us not forget that Hurwitz is adamant in saying that pronunciation doesn't matter so long as we know what one is referring to. And so he will always pronounce Lutosławski as Lutoslovsky rather than properly as Lutoswovsky. (On the other hand, since he knows German and French, Hurwitz is always scrupulously accurate in pronouncing these languages correctly.)
You think? I sometimes heard him pronounce French and German names rather incorrectly and adding "who cares, anyway?".
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 06:08:25 AMI sometimes heard him pronounce French and German names rather incorrectly and adding "who cares, anyway?".
Moi aussi. Just proves my point. I remember how "sortilèges" in Ravel's opera came out "sort-ee-yezh." But personally, I think indifference to correct pronunciation is a mark of unprofessionalism. Classical radio announcers often go out of their way to ensure they are saying names properly, as tney should. It's a mark of respect to the artists.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 06:21:11 AMI think indifference to correct pronunciation is a mark of unprofessionalism.
Absolutely.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 06:21:11 AMBut personally, I think indifference to correct pronunciation is a mark of unprofessionalism.
I've heard BBC announcers pronounce Don Quixote as Don Kwix-it. Per GMG, BBC announcers are unprofessional.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 06:30:02 AMI've heard BBC announcers pronounce Don Quixote as Don Kwix-it. Per GMG, BBC announcers are unprofessional.
Yes, but they're British.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 06:38:38 AMYes, but they're British.
Thanks, it is indeed cover against all sins. ;D
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 06:30:02 AMI've heard BBC announcers pronounce Don Quixote as Don Kwix-it. Per GMG, BBC announcers are unprofessional.
I've heard Romanian announcers pronouncing (Victor) Hugo as HEW-go and Richard (Wagner) as Richard [English pronunciation].
And yes, I think both the BBC-ers and the Romanians are unprofessional in such cases.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 07:02:07 AMI've heard Romanian announcers pronouncing (Victor) Hugo as HEW-go and Richard (Wagner) as Richard [English pronunciation].
And yes, I think both the BBC-ers and the Romanians are unprofessional in such cases.
GMG is the arbiter of professionalism. Along with everything else.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 06:30:02 AMI've heard BBC announcers pronounce Don Quixote as Don Kwix-it. Per GMG, BBC announcers are unprofessional.
Unavoidably made me think of the British tyre-change garage Kwik-Fit. And thence to AI.... Meet Don Kwikfit.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 07:08:27 AMGMG is the arbiter of professionalism. Along with everything else.
Performing Beethoven piano sonatas, for instance --- the arbiter of which is a long-time GMG resident. ;D
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 07:09:19 AMUnavoidably made me think of the British tyre-change garage Kwik-Fit. And thence to AI....
Or like Byron's Don Juan . . . .
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 07:12:22 AMPerforming Beethoven piano sonatas, for instance --- the arbiter of which is a long-time GMG resident. ;D
I am the supreme arbiter of my preferences and nothing else. Others here pretend their opinions have objective value.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 07:14:26 AMI am the supreme arbiter of my preferences and nothing else. Others here pretend their opinions have objective value.
Pronouncing Quixote or Victor Hugo incorrectly is a mark of lack of education/culture. I should have thought that education/culture is a prerequisite for announcers working for broadcasting organizations which claim to be cultural.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 07:24:32 AMPronouncing Quixote or Victor Hugo incorrectly is a mark of lack of education/culture.
False.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 07:14:26 AMOthers here pretend their opinions have objective value.
Oh? like who?
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 07:24:32 AMPronouncing Quixote or Victor Hugo incorrectly is a mark of lack of education/culture.
At risk of offending some of our friends, the British take great pride in mispronouncing all foreign words. No matter how cultured a Londoner may be, his/her nation has put great effort into inventing new, strange pronunciations for every word with a French origin. ;D
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 07:41:48 AMAt risk of offending some of our friends, the British take great pride in mispronouncing all foreign words. No matter how cultured a Londoner may be, his/her nation has put great effort into inventing new, strange pronunciations for every word with a French origin. ;D
It's not just us Brits mind you...
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 07:47:35 AMIt's not just us Brits mind you...
Oh, very true, but you are my sacrificial lamb to prove my point ;D
Sackray Bluh!
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 07:41:48 AM. No matter how cultured a Londoner may be, his/her nation has put great effort into inventing new, strange pronunciations for every word with a French origin. ;D
We gave the French the sandwich. I will always be proud of that
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 07:41:48 AMAt risk of offending some of our friends, the British take great pride in mispronouncing all foreign words. No matter how cultured a Londoner may be, his/her nation has put great effort into inventing new, strange pronunciations for every word with a French origin. ;D
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian,
the Greeks are taught their Greek.
In France every Frenchman knows his language from "A" to "Zed"
The French never care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly.
[followed by a riff on the solo bassoon]
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 07:47:35 AMIt's not just us Brits mind you...
Let's not forget the Bizet opera which is invariably mispronounced CAR-men.
Quote from: aukhawk on March 29, 2024, 07:54:54 AMWe gave the French the sandwich. I will always be proud of that
You mean le sahndWEECH!
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 07:41:48 AMAt risk of offending some of our friends, the British take great pride in mispronouncing all foreign words. No matter how cultured a Londoner may be, his/her nation has put great effort into inventing new, strange pronunciations for every word with a French origin. ;D
I'm well aware of that but this is precisely my point: education and culture are not exclusively British/American. iF one speaks about Don Quixote or Victor Hugo, then at least they should make the effort (which is not even so great an effort) to learn the correct pronunciation of their names. I don't believe that the fact that Romanian has a phonetical ortography could justify my pronouncing William Shakespeare or Byron Janis exactly as written, taking the letters at their Romanian phonetical value.
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 07:41:48 AMAt risk of offending some of our friends, the British take great pride in mispronouncing all foreign words. No matter how cultured a Londoner may be, his/her nation has put great effort into inventing new, strange pronunciations for every word with a French origin. ;D
Le coup de grace is that genoise connoisseur in my cul-de-sac.....
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 07:58:00 AMLet's not forget the Bizet opera which is invariably mispronounced CAR-men.
Who the blazes is this Bizzett fellow, old chap? Doesn't quite sound like
one of us if you know what I mean. What a rum do!
(for balance, some of us have problems with the hierarchy of mischievous squirrels in Marylebone :-[ )
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 07:59:26 AMI'm well aware of that but this is precisely my point: education and culture are not exclusively British/American. iF one speaks about Don Quixote or Victor Hugo, then at least they should make the effort (which is not even so great an effort) to learn the correct pronunciation of their names. I don't believe that the fact that Romanian has a phonetical ortography could justify my pronouncing William Shakespeare or Byron Janis exactly as written, taking the letters at their Romanian phonetical value.
I wonder how the very learned folks on GMG might pronounce ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त?
As per usual, GMG remains blandly Eurocentric.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:13:09 AMI wonder how the very learned folks on GMG might pronounce ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त?
It took me 5 seconds (to quote you literally) to learn that ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त transliterates in the Roman alphabet as Brahmasphutasiddhanta, and then to learn that Brahmasphutasiddhanta is pronounced thus:
https://www.howtopronounce.com/hindi/brahmasphutasiddhanta
To be fair, CarMEN is a Frenchified incorrect stress of the Spanish name, so the correction has some justification.
Of course, ignorance (or often worse, indifference) wrt the pronunciation of foreign words is either lack of education or (and that might be why it's more frequent from some speakers than others) latent cultural imperialism. Or maybe simply personal arrogance.
But I also think that nitpicking pronunciations, especially if the person either made a reasonable effort, or uses a anglicized/germanized etc. form because it's common in their environment can be exaggerated and come across as snobbish in trivial details.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 08:24:37 AMTo be fair, CarMEN is a Frenchified incorrect stress of the Spanish name, so the correction has some justification.
Exactly. :)
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 08:23:17 AMIt took me 5 seconds (to quote you literally) to learn that ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त transliterates in the Roman alphabet as Brahmasphutasiddhanta, and then to learn that Brahmasphutasiddhanta is pronounced thus:
https://www.howtopronounce.com/hindi/brahmasphutasiddhanta
Assuming the internet has provided the proper pronunciation, you did not know the word or how to pronounce it before using Google, which means you are uneducated and uncultured.
Now, without using the internet, how do you suppose Coppell - as in Coppell, TX - is pronounced? Spell it out phonetically. (Brian must resist the urge to jump in.) After that, take a stab at pronouncing Champoeg.
Florestan, I suspect your English pronunciation sucks. I mean American English, of course, the one that matters.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:13:09 AMI wonder how the very learned folks on GMG might pronounce ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त?
As per usual, GMG remains blandly Eurocentric.
As it should. Western culture that has become world culture is centered in Europe. It's part of being an educated person to pronounce "Victor Hugo"recognizably but not Sanskrit, Swahili or Chinese names.
(Also the person criticized was an American who should know and be able to do it without tongue twisting, not someone from e.g. China who might not)
Maybe it will be different in another 100 years but the Romans spoke Greek for longer than that after Athens had lost much of its relevance.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 08:30:53 AMAs it should. Western culture that has become world culture is centered in Europe.
That is part of the standard Eurocentrism displayed on this forum. People in non-Western countries do not hold the same views on culture or what constitutes "world culture" - there is no such thing, actually. My current employer happens to be owned by an Indian, with a lot of high-ranking Indian employees. It's quite striking how little they concern themselves with Eurocentric conceptions of the world.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:29:37 AMAssuming the internet has provided the proper pronunciation, you did not know the word or how to pronounce it before using Google, which means you are uneducated and uncultured.
Yeah, right! Compare the relevance, for BBC or Romanian BC announcers, of ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त (the written word, that is) with Don Quijote, Victor Hugo and Richard Wagner.
QuoteFlorestan, I suspect your English pronunciation sucks. I mean American English, of course, the one that matters.
@Karl Henning has heard me speaking English. I will defer the matter to him.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:29:37 AMNow, without using the internet, how do you suppose Coppell - as in Coppell, TX - is pronounced? Spell it out phonetically. (Brian must resist the urge to jump in.) After that, that a stab at pronouncing Champoeg.
How is any of these names comparable in cultural relevance to Victor Hugo or Cervantes? Even without the unfair "advantage" of English having no stringent rules for pronunciation, don't you think we could easily pick some small town in Europe with an unpronounceable name?
Nobody not living there is supposed to know how "Coesfeld" or Coppell are pronounced but if someone with a job in culture pronounces that French writer as "you go"...
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 08:24:37 AMTo be fair, CarMEN is a Frenchified incorrect stress of the Spanish name, so the correction has some justification.
That may be, but in the opera the character's name is invariably stressed on the second syllable.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 08:35:35 AMYeah, right! Compare the relevance, for BBC or Romanian BC announcers, of ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त (the written word, that is) with Don Quijote, Victor Hugo and Richard Wagner.
You already definitively demonstrated that announcers are unprofessional, and they are not even relevant here. As someone who is very learned and very cultured, you should have known what was posted. Since you did not and cannot pronounce it, you have shown yourself to be uneducated and uncultured.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 08:35:35 AM@Karl Henning has heard me speaking English. I will defer the matter to him.
The implication here is that your pronunciation is spot on. We shall assume it is. Let us see if you can phonetically spell out Coppell or Champoeg.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 08:37:25 AMHow is any of these names comparable in cultural relevance to Victor Hugo or Cervantes?
Of course they are not, but not being able to pronounce Hugo or Cervantes or this, that, or the other thing is not a sign of education or culture. And of course, the examples on offer are from a particularly limited milieu. Apparently, people on this forum would be shocked to learn that most of the world doesn't give a fuck about Hugo.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 05:35:21 AMAre you sure? AFAIK, y in Finnish is more or less the equivalent of ü in German, like in München --- very different from the y in the English word symbol.
You could be correct. To me the y in symbol sounds close (accent can affect how close it is), but yeah I suppose ü in München is close too. The letters u and y in Finnish are especially difficult for Japanese people, because their u is something between our u and y.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:34:38 AMThat is part of the standard Eurocentrism displayed on this forum. People in non-Western countries do not hold the same views on culture or what constitutes "world culture" - there is no such thing, actually. My current employer happens to be owned by an Indian, with a lot of high-ranking Indian employees.
Do you speak Hindi with them? Why not? Because the world culture is not Indian, but Western.
You only forget about the aspects that seem "natural" that you hardly realize they are Western (like that today is 29 of March, 2024, not 19 of Ramadan, 1445)
I don't deny that this is changing.
But Classical music is eurocentric because it stems from Europe and such Eurocentrism needs no defense. And while it's nice to know who Arjuna is, it's still more central for the appreciation of the dominant cultural products to know who Achilles is. Bollywood might make a Mahabharata movie but it's hardly going to be watched around the world in the way "Troy" was. Same with pronunciations.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 08:55:51 AMDo you speak Hindi with them? Why not?
Oh, goodness, no. It's way too complicated to learn. And it has no practical value in the US. I do not speak or read Mandarin for the same reasons. (Sure, knowing the languages could have value in specific neighborhoods.)
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 08:55:51 AMBecause the world culture is not Indian, but Western.
There is no world culture. That is a fallacious assertion made by Westerners. It is residue from imperial adventures.
Western classical music is western, by definition. Assertions made in this thread go beyond that.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:43:37 AMOf course they are not, but not being able to pronounce Hugo or Cervantes or this, that, or the other thing is not a sign of education or culture. And of course, the examples on offer are from a particularly limited milieu. Apparently, people on this forum would be shocked to learn that most of the world doesn't give a fuck about Hugo.
That most people don't care about them is true for almost all things.
So according to this line of thought no particular cultural knowledge (such as knowing a foreign language or being able to pronounce foreign names) is a sign of education or culture, neither is any ignorance an indication of lacking them. Methinks that proves to much.
Where you are wrong is that the cultural knowledge in a "limited milieu" is random and exchangeable like the trivia known to Star Wars or Pokemon fans. Shared stories and cultural traditions are one element that stabilizes cultures and nations and we will realize soon that globalist entertainment trash is no replacement.
(And even most of the current disgusting entertainment trash is clearly Western, usually more narrow and parochial than dreaded Eurocentrism (that encompasses quite a bit of distinct cultures), as in dominated by US metropolitan culture and comic books...). They have to make the Little Mermaid black because they apparently cannot dig out a Caribbean or African fairy tale for a movie.)
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 09:10:26 AMSo according to this line of thought no particular cultural knowledge (such as knowing a foreign language or being able to pronounce foreign names) is a sign of education or culture, neither is any ignorance an indication of lacking them. Methinks that proves to much.
A bit tortured, I should say.
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 09:10:26 AMWhere you are wrong is that the cultural knowledge in a "limited milieu" is random and exchangeable like the trivia known to Star Wars or Pokemon fans.
The examples on offer are from a particularly limited milieu. That does not imply randomness or fungibility. No such assertion was made.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 09:01:15 AMThere is no world culture. That is a fallacious assertion made by Westerners. It is residue from imperial adventures.
Western classical music is western, by definition. Assertions made in this thread go beyond that.
There is a world culture in the sense that the whole world recognizes today as 29th of March, 2024, not as 19 of Ramadan, 1445. That is, despite different regional cultures, certain aspects of Western culture (still) dominate the whole world.
There are FAR more Japanese people listening to or even singing Beethoven's 9th Symphony every december than German or Austrian people knowing anything about Japanese music or literature or any bit of Japanese culture except for sushi.
There are probably also far more Japanese playing soccer than Europeans doing japanese style martial arts or zen archery. In any case there is no japanese martial arts world cup watched by as many people as the soccer WC
and so on.
This is one of those mini debates so strange I can no longer follow it, but I do want to say that I know a guy who doesn't pronounce Coppell, TX, correctly and he lives in it.
Get that round here in rural Suffolk quite a bit. The village of Cowlinge, anyone?
(Resisting urge to plug that one into AI too)
Quote from: Jo498 on March 29, 2024, 09:18:30 AMThere is a world culture in the sense that the whole world recognizes today as 29th of March, 2024, not as 19 of Ramadan, 1445. That is, despite different regional cultures, certain aspects of Western culture (still) dominate the whole world.
There are FAR more Japanese people listening to or even singing Beethoven's 9th Symphony every december than German or Austrian people knowing anything about Japanese music or literature or any bit of Japanese culture except for sushi.
There are probably also far more Japanese playing soccer than Europeans doing japanese style martial arts or zen archery. In any case there is no japanese martial arts world cup watched by as many people as the soccer WC
and so on.
This does not demonstrate the existence of a world culture. Japan is not a particularly good example since it was conquered by the US, had some of its key post-war institutions created by the US, and it is still occupied by the US. Hell, Shohei Ohtani plays an American game. Generally speaking, at least in academic circles and long-form quasi-academic journals, Japan, specifically, is grouped with the West. This is distinct from the Global South. The assertions made about Japan do not apply to India, Thailand, Nigeria, Iran, etc.
The practical adoption of a calendar forced on countries by colonial powers and then reinforced by wanting to engage with the post-war global hegemon is not a particularly meaningful example of a global culture.
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 09:25:45 AMGet that round here in rural Suffolk quite a bit. The village of Cowlinge, anyone?
(Resisting urge to plug that one into AI too)
"Ministry of Housinge?!"
-- It was spelt like that on the van. I'm very observant.
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 09:20:13 AMThis is one of those mini debates so strange I can no longer follow it, but I do want to say that I know a guy who doesn't pronounce Coppell, TX, correctly and he lives in it.
Sure, and there are Portlanders who mispronounce Couch in Couch Street. I suspect that the person who mispronounces the word Coppell at least knows how it is pronounced, but maybe not.
This originated when Florestan assigned some significance to how words are pronounced and falsely attached it to education and culture. There is no such connection.
Quote from: Karl Henning on March 29, 2024, 09:29:15 AM"Ministry of Housinge?!"
-- It was spelt like that on the van. I'm very observant.
It's pronounced as 'Cooling,' presumably from the ancient pronunciation of Cow. I drive through it fairly often.
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 09:32:08 AMIt's pronounced as 'Cooling,' presumably from the ancient pronunciation of Cow. I drive through it fairly often.
Interesting. And another pointer to old English being closer to modern German than to modern English.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 09:29:24 AMI suspect that the person who mispronounces the word Coppell at least knows how it is pronounced, but maybe not.
He's just an odd dude. He also (verbally) shortens Carrollton to Carlton.
Thread duty: watched the DH Monteux and Berglund box reviews this morning. Not totally sold on how much I "need" either, because of the duplicative repertoire and a charitable GMGer sending me Monteux files, but both are still tempting at a good price. I suspect I'd really only listen to a dozen discs from each box, but perhaps would listen to those dozens enough to justify having the other 50ish.
Quote from: Brian on March 29, 2024, 09:54:10 AMHe's just an odd dude. He also (verbally) shortens Carrollton to Carlton.
But there's a Carlton to the southwest of the metroplex.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 09:56:12 AMBut there's a Carlton to the southwest of the metroplex.
There's one here, too, near Cowlinge in fact. It's pronounced 'Carlton.'
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 09:58:33 AMThere's one here, too, near Cowlinge in fact. It's pronounced 'Carlton.'
There's one a bit southwest of Portland as well. It is as confusingly pronounced as the one you cite.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on March 29, 2024, 10:04:41 AMI can tell you this. I've yet to run into someone not from Chicago who can pronounce it correctly. They always place the accents and emphases in the wrong places - even those damn "Northsiders".
As to the thread, I don't pay any attention to critics when it comes to art.
Keeping with two themes, I haven't paid attention to any critics since Roger Ebert died.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 09:29:24 AMThis originated when Florestan assigned some significance to how words are pronounced and falsely attached it to education and culture.
You grossly misrepresent what I said. It was not words in general, but the names of such cultural icons as Don Quixote, Victor Hugo and Richard Wagner. How Coppell, TX is locally pronounced has zero relevance in this context.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 10:33:25 AMYou grossly misrepresent what I said ....
That's Huggy Bear all over!
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:40:33 AMAs someone who is very learned and very cultured, you should have known what was posted. Since you did not and cannot pronounce it, you have shown yourself to be uneducated and uncultured.
Once again, you grossly misrepresent my opinions. I never pretended to be very learned and very cultured. I freely and unashamedly confess my ignorance of the Hindi language, alphabet and culture.
Second, being educated/cultured does not mean knowing ALL languages and alphabets and being familiar with ALL cultures --- that would mean nobody dead or alive or yet to be born has been, is or will be educated and cultured. But I dare say that correctly pronouncing the names of the cultural icons from one's own cultural area (and you can call it Eurocentrism as much as you like till you're blue in the face, I don't care a fig), especially when one is an announcer for a cultural broadcasting organization, is, or rather should be, part of basic education.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 10:33:25 AMYou grossly misrepresent what I said.
Incorrect. What you wrote:
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 07:24:32 AMPronouncing Quixote or Victor Hugo incorrectly is a mark of lack of education/culture.
This is false on its face. I cited an important Hindi example which you hurriedly Googled. You are very uneducated and uncultured when it comes to anything non-western. That is, your assertion is blandly Eurocentric. And of course, there are very educated people - more educated than you - who mispronounce the words you revere. I cannot speak to how cultured they may be.
The fun examples of regional names demonstrate that you cannot even pronounce words regularly pronounced by western speakers, and the purposeful mention of American English, as differentiated from British English or Euro English, further highlights the innate silliness of making hay about pronunciation. Such a fixation is pseudointellectual claptrap.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 11:15:21 AM(and you can call it Eurocentrism as much as you like till you're blue in the face, I don't care a fig),
That you make a point to mention it clearly demonstrates that your care at least one fig.
Also, you possess no special knowledge as to what should constitute a "basic education". It is not at all clear that reading Hugo provides anything meaningful.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:40:33 AMThe implication here is that your pronunciation is spot on.
No.The implication here is that only a native English speaker who has heard me speaking English can judge my pronunciation. And between "it sucks" and "it's spot on" there are lots of shades and nuances.
That being said, I'm done with this (off-)topic. For good.
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 11:23:17 AMNo.The implication here is that only a native English speaker who has heard me speaking English can judge my pronunciation. And between "it sucks" and "it's spot on" there are lots of shades and nuances.
That being said, I'm done with this (off-)topic. For good.
Classic Florestan indignation and last-wordism.
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 11:21:46 AMou cannot even pronounce words regularly pronounced by western speakers,
Yeah, right, the name of Coppell, TX is regularly pronounced by Western speakers. Give me a break.
The only thing to be said to all this is
Cholmondeley
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 11:25:05 AMYeah, right, the name of Coppell, TX is regularly pronounced by Western speakers. Give me a break.
It is by people in the region, which number in the millions. But you knew that.
I thought you were done with this off-topic
for good, as you cleverly (?) put it.
I'm going to split the digression into a diner topic, as the posts come fast and furious I will temporarily lock it, but as soon as I'm done I'll unlock it. Shouldn't take too long.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on March 29, 2024, 01:35:24 PMI know, because of my genetics, that there are certain sounds my mouth simply can't make. I watch a Danish YouTuber, and I simply cannot say her name properly because of this soft undertone in the middle.
Makes me feel a bit silly, but most people are forgiving because they see that I am trying.
In my curiosity Danish lessons on Duolingo, the extent to which letters don't necessarily have the values one expects is impressing me greatly.
And yes, when I was in Russia, people were most forgiving and gracious about my phonetic shortcomings.
As someone born in Europe then later lived there again for ~8 years as an adult this discussion does make me smile about Europeans hard ingrained "truth" about Eurocentrism being some universal truth (oh was it ever prevalent and unignorable). Well done to Todd dispel these notions.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on March 29, 2024, 05:18:29 AMThank you, 71dB. I was making a joke (yes, I know how to produce the diatritics), but apparently it bombed. However, I now know how to say "refrigerator" in Finnish and how to ask if Matti is going fishing next weekend (presumably to store his catch in the refrigerator before cooking it), so there is a net gain.
"Never stop learning, because those who stop learning stop living."
- Newton Okewoye
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 06:08:25 AMI never claimed otherwise, nevertheless the y in the English word symbol is not the same as the Finnish y.
I of course know very well how y sounds in Finnish, but apparently I don't know how it sounds in the English word
symbol! :D
Quote from: Florestan on March 29, 2024, 06:08:25 AMJudge for yourself:
Varpu is a master in this kind of things. I am not (obviously).
Quote from: Todd on March 29, 2024, 08:13:09 AMI wonder how the very learned folks on GMG might pronounce ब्राह्मस्फुटसिद्धान्त?
As per usual, GMG remains blandly Eurocentric.
Is Brahmagupta's text in Sanskrit? If so, then the question of pronunciation is irrelevant, as is the case with Latin.
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 09:25:45 AMGet that round here in rural Suffolk quite a bit. The village of Cowlinge, anyone?
We help things along in rural Monmouthshire by spelling place-names in multiple different ways, just to add to the fun. Just down the road from us is a village whose name appears in 3 different versions on signs: Llanvapley, Llanfapley (those at either end of the village) and Llanfable. (The first of these is the best guide to how it's actually pronounced.)
Quote from: Luke on March 30, 2024, 11:45:12 AMIt means sold (especially sold cheaply/casually) in Britain. If you're trying to flog something you're trying to sell it, which may incidentally involve marketing.
I once knew an Englishman who told me he was thinking of taking a certain job, but he had qualms about it. I asked what it involved, and he said: "flogging fags." I was briefly shocked, but then realized that they were selling cigarettes.
Well, he could have been applying for a job in one of our more medieval private educational establishments, in which case your first thought might have been correct.
Off-topic or maybe not: is there a more illogical and irrational language than English? ;D
Quote from: Florestan on March 30, 2024, 02:50:42 PMOff-topic or maybe not: is there a more illogical and irrational language than English? ;D
If there were, English would twist some more to accommodate!
Quote from: FlorestanOff-topic or maybe not: is there a more illogical and irrational language than English? ;D
Well, I sought for another, but after a lot of thought, and after ploughing through many examples *cough cough* I said, 'enough!' Although, I might be wrong...
Quote from: Florestan on March 30, 2024, 02:50:42 PMOff-topic or maybe not: is there a more illogical and irrational lamguage than English? ;D
That's an impossible question to answer, since there are a couple of thousand languages out there, and they probably all have their own irrationalities. Also, how does one measure such a thing in a language? It's probably harder than measuring the popularity of Bruckner.
I do wonder though. Why does "a few" mean not many, but "quite a few" means many? Why does "for good" mean permanently? And so on and so forth.
Let alone words like 'bound' and 'fast' which both have double and approximately opposite meanings.
He jumped free with a bound.
She was bound to the railings
She ran away fast.
He was stuck fast.
Quote from: Luke on March 30, 2024, 02:56:02 PMWell, I sought for another, but after a lot of thought, and after ploughing through many examples *cough cough* I said, 'enough!' Although, I might be wrong...
George Bernard Shaw pointed out that you could spell "fish" as
ghoti, using the gh from cough, the o from women, and the ti from motion.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 30, 2024, 02:56:21 PMThat's an impossible question to answer, since there are a couple of thousand languages out there, and they probably all have their own irrationalities. Also, how does one measure such a thing in a language? It's probably harder than measuring the popularity of Bruckner.
I do wonder though. Why does "a few" mean not many, but "quite a few" means many? Why does "for good" mean permanently? And so on and so forth.
And that line from "Stormy Weather"... " I wonder if she's gone to stay forever."
My point being that English orthography and pronunciation make it one of the least candidates for a lingua franca.
;D
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on March 30, 2024, 03:02:13 PMGeorge Bernard Shaw pointed out that you could spell "fish" as ghoti, using the gh from cough, the o from women, and the ti from motion.
I near fell out of my seat when I saw that as a gag on a warehouse sign in the old
Batman series!
Quote from: Florestan on March 30, 2024, 03:07:49 PMMy point being that English orthography and pronunciation make it one of the least candidates for a lingua franca.
;D
That's true, though what I see of Danish, the Danes could almost give us a run for our money.
Quote from: Luke on March 29, 2024, 06:58:59 AMThanks, it is indeed cover against all sins. ;D
(* chortle *)
Quote from: Florestan on March 30, 2024, 03:07:49 PMMy point being that English orthography and pronunciation make it one of the least candidates for a lingua franca.
Well, it's not plagued with having to assign a gender to every inanimate object out there.