Wow, so Klaus Mäkelä, the music director of the Concertgebouw, has been chosen as the next music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. From what I've seen, he's a great talent. Chicago + Amsterdam = quite the portfolio, and I forgot he's still involved with Oslo and the Orchestre de Paris! I hope he doesn't burn out.
Info here (https://cso.org/klausmakela).
-Bruce
Wow. He's 28 years old and running two of...shall we say...the top dozen orchestras in the world?
I'd love to hear an explanation, from orchestra musicians, of what kind of rehearsal skills, personal touch, and maturity are required to rocket to fame in this way when so many other conductors have to "earn their keep" in minor regional circuits for decades. This is not to denigrate him in any way, of course. It's genuine curiosity about what sets him apart!
Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 07:31:53 AMWow. He's 28 years old and running two of...shall we say...the top dozen orchestras in the world?
I'd love to hear an explanation, from orchestra musicians, of what kind of rehearsal skills, personal touch, and maturity are required to rocket to fame in this way when so many other conductors have to "earn their keep" in minor regional circuits for decades. This is not to denigrate him in any way, of course. It's genuine curiosity about what sets him apart!
Yes, exactly. And I edited my original post: he's also head (https://www.concertgebouworkest.nl/en/conductors/klaus-makela) of the Oslo Philharmonic and the Orchestre de Paris!
I mean, good on him, but...but...
four orchestras? I guess we will find out.
-Bruce
Ah, just found out from the NY Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/arts/music/klaus-makela-28-to-lead-chicago-symphony-orchestra.html?unlocked_article_code=1.hU0.gNua.ea_WucvwmkE0&smid=url-share&fbclid=IwAR2CNvY2K9TB0a_X6BosAR3NrlokBbw4zINmB41Zw3RU8F1IGDh35Vmi-e4_aem_ASB8y27ddP9rZo_wzAGYYnj0tyj0NVcgJ70DtevM8kzrve3woaKVNFmSQB9ogMeNSU_7IBDxfPG0Qc3zhjsDVJdL): he'll leave Oslo and Paris when those contracts expire, to focus on Amsterdam and Chicago.
-Bruce
Side note, which of those four cities would you live in? Talk about spoiled for choice! ;D
I was gonna post this (since I'm on a CSO mailing list), but you beat me to it.
I've heard of Mäkelä, but never heard him conduct. Looking forward to discovering more. That he is so young is both exciting and potentially worrying (as Bruce says, let's hope he doesn't burn out, or bite off more than he can chew).
Hurwitz is going to have a field day with this!
Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 07:31:53 AMWow. He's 28 years old and running two of...shall we say...the top dozen orchestras in the world?
I have the same complaint I had when the now rightly and utterly disgraced Jas Levine helmed both the Met Orchestra and the BSO: what about fostering new talent, rather than letting those who are already established breathe up all the damned oxygen? It's
them what already have gets it all forever, eh?
Quote from: brewski on April 02, 2024, 07:29:02 AMWow, so Klaus Mäkelä, the music director of the Concertgebouw, has been chosen as the next music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. From what I've seen, he's a great talent. Chicago + Amsterdam = quite the portfolio, and I forgot he's still involved with Oslo and the Orchestre de Paris! I hope he doesn't burn out.
Info here (https://cso.org/klausmakela).
-Bruce
I read somewhere that one way or another he would have to move across the ocean, closer to Yuja.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 02, 2024, 08:39:47 AMHurwitz is going to have a field day with this!
What is Hurwitz's view of Mäkelä? I searched the Classics Today website, but found nothing.
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 02, 2024, 08:46:01 AMI have the same complaint I had when the now rightly and utterly disgraced Jas Levine helmed both the Met Orchestra and the BSO: what about fostering new talent, rather than letting those who are already established breathe up all the damned oxygen? It's them what already have gets it all forever, eh?
Isn't he young enough to count as new? He's certainly not "safe" in the sense that Muti, Haitink and Barenboim were (just to mention the last 3 CSO heads).
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 02, 2024, 09:33:58 AMWhat is Hurwitz's view of Mäkelä? I searched the Classics Today website, but found nothing.
He had some histrionic comments about the Sibelius cycle on video. My own feeling about the Sibelius was much less extreme, but still that Mäkelä spent so much time and effort on the string section phrasing and tone that he shortchanged everyone else in terms of both detail and balance.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 02, 2024, 09:33:58 AMIsn't he young enough to count as new? He's certainly not "safe" in the sense that Muti, Haitink and Barenboim were (just to mention the last 3 CSO heads).
While I take your point (nor do I contest his musical fitness) But, "there's no other talent available, we have to appoint someone who already has another major appointment" serves to keep other conductors who though talented, lack opportunity, invisible. Granted, I speak as an invisible composer, so factor that in.
Quote from: brewski on April 02, 2024, 07:29:02 AMWow, so Klaus Mäkelä, the music director of the Concertgebouw, has been chosen as the next music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. From what I've seen, he's a great talent. Chicago + Amsterdam = quite the portfolio, and I forgot he's still involved with Oslo and the Orchestre de Paris! I hope he doesn't burn out.
Info here (https://cso.org/klausmakela).
-Bruce
Claudia Cassidy is spinning in her grave.
I've not heard a single one of his discs let alone seen a concert but he must be not just a significant musical talent but good with people/musicians too. Orchestras do not have to tolerate old-school martinets any more. I'm sure a nice juicy Decca recording contract in an era when such things are all but extinct helps as well.
My only observation would be that a Music Director has to be so much more than "just" a fine musician/conductor. Programming, administering large organisations, auditioning/appointing principles and other key responsibilitiesare all things which benefit from experience rather than simply talent. Being at the head of one of the great orchestras would be demanding at such a young age - to my mind heading up two cannot benefit both. But clearly it is the modern way with Nelsons in Boston and Leipzig.
Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 07:47:44 AMSide note, which of those four cities would you live in?
Which has the best pizza?
Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 09:36:23 AMHe had some histrionic comments about the Sibelius cycle on video. My own feeling about the Sibelius was much less extreme, but still that Mäkelä spent so much time and effort on the string section phrasing and tone that he shortchanged everyone else in terms of both detail and balance.
So he is the new Karajan then? :P
FWIW, you can hear his Carnegie Hall debut here (https://www.wqxr.org/story/orchestre-de-paris/?tab=transcript) on WQXR with the Orchestre de Paris, from just a few weeks ago. The program is all-Stravinsky, with The Firebird and The Rite of Spring. I have not yet listened, but will soon.
I have watched his Shostakovich 7 with Frankfurt, available here (https://youtu.be/GB3zR_X25UU?si=odHjVm1Y3Ut2So9G) on YouTube, and liked it a lot.
-Bruce
Bernstein first subbed for Bruno Walter in 1943, age 25. Toscanini conducted his first Aida at 18. Sacré bleu, these kids should not have been allowed near a podium.
A couple of things:
I heard Mäkelä live for the first time with the RCO on tour in Cologne this last December. Same program as the Kerstmatinee that can still be watched on streaming video over on the Avrotros website. That was easily one of the best concerts I have ever heard, with one of the most gripping, organically flowing Eroicas ever. That alone convinced me in terms of his talents. And all the interviews I have seen suggest that he is a thoughtful, serious and humble musician with exceptional people skills.
Re: being overcommitted, his contracts in Oslo and Paris will run out before he starts in Amsterdam and Chicago. A music directorship is a 12-14 week job. Many conductors have held two music directorships simultaneously, including Mäkelä's immediate RCO predecessor and two of his CSO predecessors. So I don't really see this being a problem. It seems he has said in some interview that he will curtail his guest conducting to just Berlin and maybe one other orchestra. So that seems like a very manageable load.
With all the complaining about classical music "dying" and audiences shrinking, the critics seem to forget that the winning recipe in the past very much included personality hype, a bit of showmanship, the social allure of being seen at concerts with top performers, and just the plain entertainment effect. Sober serious, ascetic musicianship alone simply doesn't pay the bills. An orchestra of the caliber of the CSO, besides needing someone with top musical skills, also needs someone with that star power to both fill seats and draw donations and sell out international tours. There are very very few conductors who fit that bill AND are of an age that the investment will still bear fruit two decades from now. From all these considerations this is a shrewd choice for the CSO (and once again shows that they can attract the sort of talent that e.g. NY or LA or SF still can't).
Lastly, re: the opinions of musicians, I have uniformly heard from musicians I know that they have been floored by his musicianship. Here is an example from a CSO violist: https://slippedisc.com/2022/04/chicago-lands-a-dream-conductor/
I would think the CSO musicians are quite happy with this result.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 02, 2024, 11:13:38 AMBernstein first subbed for Bruno Walter in 1943, age 25. Toscanini conducted his first Aida at 18. Sacré bleu, these kids should not have been allowed near a podium.
Karajan was super young when he became MD in Aachen as well.
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 02, 2024, 09:33:58 AMWhat is Hurwitz's view of Mäkelä? I searched the Classics Today website, but found nothing.
It's only in the videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RGU5uWRjfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMZgqJZclJA
Quote from: MishaK on April 02, 2024, 11:26:09 AMA couple of things:
I heard Mäkelä live for the first time with the RCO on tour in Cologne this last December. Same program as the Kerstmatinee that can still be watched on streaming video over on the Avrotros website. That was easily one of the best concerts I have ever heard, with one of the most gripping, organically flowing Eroicas ever. That alone convinced me in terms of his talents. And all the interviews I have seen suggest that he is a thoughtful, serious and humble musician with exceptional people skills.
Re: being overcommitted, his contracts in Oslo and Paris will run out before he starts in Amsterdam and Chicago. A music directorship is a 12-14 week job. Many conductors have held two music directorships simultaneously, including Mäkelä's immediate RCO predecessor and two of his CSO predecessors. So I don't really see this being a problem. It seems he has said in some interview that he will curtail his guest conducting to just Berlin and maybe one other orchestra. So that seems like a very manageable load.
With all the complaining about classical music "dying" and audiences shrinking, the critics seem to forget that the winning recipe in the past very much included personality hype, a bit of showmanship, the social allure of being seen at concerts with top performers, and just the plain entertainment effect. Sober serious, ascetic musicianship alone simply doesn't pay the bills. An orchestra of the caliber of the CSO, besides needing someone with top musical skills, also needs someone with that star power to both fill seats and draw donations and sell out international tours. There are very very few conductors who fit that bill AND are of an age that the investment will still bear fruit two decades from now. From all these considerations this is a shrewd choice for the CSO (and once again shows that they can attract the sort of talent that e.g. NY or LA or SF still can't).
Lastly, re: the opinions of musicians, I have uniformly heard from musicians I know that they have been floored by his musicianship. Here is an example from a CSO violist: https://slippedisc.com/2022/04/chicago-lands-a-dream-conductor/
I would think the CSO musicians are quite happy with this result.
Addendum to my prior post which is now before the page break, here is an article in the Trib with lots of quotes from the musicians.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2024/04/02/cso-appoints-klaus-makela-as-the-youngest-music-director-in-the-orchestras-history/#luitoyc68p89nejm0w6
"After the 2021-22 season, the search committee circulated surveys to CSO musicians asking which conductors, of recent guest appearances, ought to be in the running for music director. Buchman says a "supermajority," across instrumental groups, nominated Mäkelä based on his singular appearance with the orchestra.
"One of the questions we asked on (that) survey was, 'List, in order, the top three candidates you think we should be considering for music director.'... One person returned the form as, 1. Klaus Mäkelä, 2. Klaus Mäkelä, 3. Klaus Mäkelä," Buchman says."
Quote from: MishaK on April 02, 2024, 12:29:34 PM"One of the questions we asked on (that) survey was, 'List, in order, the top three candidates you think we should be considering for music director.'... One person returned the form as, 1. Klaus Mäkelä, 2. Klaus Mäkelä, 3. Klaus Mäkelä," Buchman says."
Some articles and gossip that I read suggested Jakub Hrůša was a front-runner, as he has guest-conducted over the past few years and got good reviews. I wonder how he did in final voting.
I still haven't managed to hear Hrůša live myself. I heard positive reactions about him from the general Chicago musicians orbit. But I have not heard this sort of glowing enthusiasm. Some were quite enthusiastic about Thielemann after his Bruckner 8 guest appearance as well (much to my dismay, TBH).
One of the great joys of music is the fact it is reborn with every new performer - for good or ill! CM desperately NEEDS new, talented, persuasive performers to connect with their own age group to prove that CM can be relevant for every generation. The young lion Mehta's or Tilson-Thomas's or Rattle's have all become the patrician conductors of the present. Along the way there are bound to be some performers whose careers turn out to be brief shooting-stars rather than those decades-long. Only time will tell if Makela is the former or latter but if he generates interest and discussion along the way then good for him.
Lest you think David Hurwitz's attitude towards Mäkelä isn't informed by some degree of personal vindictiveness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh3lWkEsFH8
Some people on this forum think about David Hurwitz way too much.
Quote from: Todd on April 03, 2024, 07:43:38 AMSome people on this forum think about David Hurwitz way too much.
Thank you for letting us know.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 03, 2024, 07:45:31 AMThank you for letting us know.
You are very welcome. Think of it as a much-needed public service.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 03, 2024, 07:37:28 AMLest you think David Hurwitz's attitude towards Mäkelä isn't informed by some degree of personal vindictiveness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh3lWkEsFH8
I'm not going to dignify his "old man yelling at clouds" youtube channel with another click. What's the TL/DR on the personal animus you reference?
Quote from: MishaK on April 03, 2024, 01:26:15 PMI'm not going to dignify his "old man yelling at clouds" youtube channel with another click. What's the TL/DR on the personal animus you reference?
Exactly what I thought. It is probably like a half hour rant too, and I definitely don't have enough interest to see what DH has say about a conductor I've never heard before.
Quote from: MishaK on April 03, 2024, 01:26:15 PMI'm not going to dignify his "old man yelling at clouds" youtube channel with another click. What's the TL/DR on the personal animus you reference?
I had to look up TL/DR, but should be enough to say he titles the video by calling K.M. a "Ken Doll."
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 03, 2024, 03:15:41 PMI had to look up TL/DR, but should be enough to say he titles the video by calling K.M. a "Ken Doll."
Characteristically sober critique, then.
Interview about the appointment:
Out of curiousity I'll probably look up some of his recordings.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 03, 2024, 03:15:41 PMI had to look up TL/DR, but should be enough to say he titles the video by calling K.M. a "Ken Doll."
Ah he envies his youth then. >:D
Maybe the issue for some of those criticising the news is that, unlike Vienna, Berlin, London or Paris, Chicago is *too important* a place to share a conductor. That, and all the other eminently perceptive (too young! not a woman!) ageist and sexist "reasons" already mentioned. :D
Personally, I've liked most of what I've heard from him so far - others more, others less. He's never less than insightful. His Sibelius cycle is very good. His Shostakovich 7 from Frankfurt makes the work sound (even) better than it actually is. I might get the chance to see him in concert in the coming year, too.
What has been a surprise in all this is the stance taken by Alex Ross, whom I used to hold in some esteem.
The simple fact is musical history is littered with the appointment of 'young' conductors to major orchestras. Some prove to be blazing triumphs and herald great careers some fall by the wayside. But the same applies in just about every industry and workplace.
I suspect there is some kind of artistic "sweet spot" for conductors where the brilliance of youth is tempered with a degree of insight and experience. For example with Rattle/Mehta/Muti - 3 conductors who had very high profile jobs when 'young' - with ALL of them my favourite recordings are from their earlier years when they had musical fire in their bellies, the talent to back it up but a few years of expereince about what really works on the podium as well.
Quote from: Wanderer on April 03, 2024, 10:43:04 PMWhat has been a surprise in all this is the stance taken by Alex Ross, whom I used to hold in some esteem.
Has anyone posted this yet? I'm not sure I saw his opinion.
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2024, 05:00:46 AMHas anyone posted this yet? I'm not sure I saw his opinion.
Here you go (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/conductors-had-one-job-now-they-have-three-or-four). (No paywall that I can see.)
-Bruce
Quote from: brewski on April 04, 2024, 05:13:02 AMHere you go (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/conductors-had-one-job-now-they-have-three-or-four). (No paywall that I can see.)
-Bruce
Thank you. Wow, that was excellent and much-needed.
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2024, 05:30:38 AMThank you. Wow, that was excellent and much-needed.
Yep. Perfectly civil and not unreasonable.
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2024, 05:30:38 AMThank you. Wow, that was excellent and much-needed.
I just read it too. Quite interesting. It sounds like conductors are having to spend too much time helping to fund raise these days?
Sorry to read about Salonen leaving S.F. too.
Quote from: Wanderer on April 03, 2024, 10:43:04 PMHis Shostakovich 7 from Frankfurt makes the work sound (even) better than it actually is.
Pro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good." ;)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 03, 2024, 11:49:21 PMThe simple fact is musical history is littered with the appointment of 'young' conductors to major orchestras.
This is not the nature of my own objection, incidentally. Not that your comment was addressed to me.
Quote from: brewski on April 04, 2024, 05:13:02 AMHere you go (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/conductors-had-one-job-now-they-have-three-or-four). (No paywall that I can see.)
-Bruce
Personally, I should have titled the piece "And Chicago Makes Four."
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2024, 05:44:37 AMI just read it too. Quite interesting. It sounds like conductors are having to spend too much time helping to fund raise these days?
Sorry to read about Salonen leaving S.F. too.
I hadn't twigged that
Jansons was Latvian, though I might have guessed from orthography.
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 04, 2024, 05:50:30 AMPersonally, I should have titled the piece "And Chicago Makes Four."
Well, more concise, for sure.
-Bruce
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2024, 05:44:37 AMI just read it too. Quite interesting. It sounds like conductors are having to spend too much time helping to fund raise these days?
Sorry to read about Salonen leaving S.F. too.
At American orchestras especially. A lot of the work of a smaller regional orchestra conductor, especially, is donor related. I wonder if a lot of these youngsters try to skip jobs with the Oklahoma City Philharmonic (just a random example) because they are not trained on that aspect of the business.
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2024, 05:58:55 AMAt American orchestras especially. A lot of the work of a smaller regional orchestra conductor, especially, is donor related. I wonder if a lot of these youngsters try to skip jobs with the Oklahoma City Philharmonic (just a random example) because they are not trained on that aspect of the business.
An interesting thought.
Though if you could go quickly up the ranks and work at/conduct a major orchestra, wouldn't you go for it?
Save for a reference to prominent cheekbones, Alex Ross makes some of the same points as Hurwitz but without the personal vitriol. Much as we'd like to pretend that good looks have nothing to do with a musician's reputation, the sexualization of performers goes back at least to Liszt, where women would swoon at the sight of him and cut off a lock of his hair. If you look at the Facebook group devoted to now 20yo Yunchan Lim, it's obvious that many of the comments are as much about how cute he is as how well he plays the piano. Given that Lim is extremely shy and seems almost monkishly asexual, there's plenty of space available for fantasy.
And as for the youth vs. age thing, there are as many fine young artists as older ones. If you can play the goddam notes well, who cares how young you are? Menuhin was another artist renowned as a prodigy when he recorded the Elgar concerto at 16 with the composer.
Quote from: brewski on April 04, 2024, 05:13:02 AMHere you go (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/conductors-had-one-job-now-they-have-three-or-four). (No paywall that I can see.)
-Bruce
Except there is, I can't read it! Wait, am I the only one that was blocked with a subscribe pop-up! Ouch!
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 07:04:08 AMExcept there is, I can't read it! Wait, am I the only one that was blocked with a subscribe pop-up! Ouch!
I was too. Trick is: copy and paste the article before the pop-up appears. It works!
I don't know what DH said... but after listening to so some of his Sibelius, I think that KM is overhyped and promoted beyond his abilities unlike a young Bernstein or Karajan.
KM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland. He just doesn't seem like he has enough presence to lead the CSO, one of the finest orchestras in the world. He might have been fast tracked too fast much like Dudamel (though I think Dudamel has personality in his music making and people are too quick to dismiss him).
I don't think this has to do with age, I mean he is 28. He is not Doogie Houser. What does he have to wait until he is 40 before he starts conducting a major orchestra?
I agree with Ross that having a conductor direct multiple orchestras is not spending enough time with any individual one, and also short changes all the other talented conductors out there. And we seem to agree that KM hasn't managed a way to bring personality to his music making yet.
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 07:29:04 AMAnd we seem to agree that KM hasn't managed a way to bring personality to his music making yet.
And there are new conductors who are already in middle age, who have chops, personality and vision, but who don't know the right people ....
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 07:08:46 AMI don't know what DH said... but after listening to so some of his Sibelius, I think that KM is overhyped and promoted beyond his abilities unlike a young Bernstein or Karajan.
KM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland. He just doesn't seem like he has enough presence to lead the CSO, one of the finest orchestras in the world. He might have been fast tracked too fast much like Dudamel (though I think Dudamel has personality in his music making and people are too quick to dismiss him).
I don't think this has to do with age, I mean he is 28. He is not Doogie Houser. What does he have to wait until he is 40 before he starts conducting a major orchestra?
Oh, dear! That's not boding well. Did you listen to the Tapiola via your streamer? I'll have to see whether or not I can find anything online with him conducting.
I see a "winner takes all" trend which pervades many areas of our culture, and the dominance of fundraising in roles which should be about creative activity. It is also an issue in the sciences, where funding piles up on superstar researchers, who don't actually do any research, but who are virtuosos of fundraising and self-promotion. Researchers whose work is not flashy or in line with current prejudices too often fall by the wayside. How many Nobel prize winners in science have commented "this never could have been funded today?"
I've never heard a note conducted by Mäkelä, but it seems like one directorship should be enough for him to express his view of music, leaving opportunities for others who also have their views to express.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2024, 07:46:00 AMOh, dear! That's not boding well. Did you listen to the Tapiola via your streamer? I'll have to see whether or not I can find anything online with him conducting.
Mäkelä leading the Oslo Phil in the Brahms e minor Symphony
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 07:08:46 AMI don't know what DH said... but after listening to so some of his Sibelius, I think that KM is overhyped and promoted beyond his abilities unlike a young Bernstein or Karajan.
KM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland. He just doesn't seem like he has enough presence to lead the CSO, one of the finest orchestras in the world. He might have been fast tracked too fast much like Dudamel (though I think Dudamel has personality in his music making and people are too quick to dismiss him).
I don't think this has to do with age, I mean he is 28. He is not Doogie Houser. What does he have to wait until he is 40 before he starts conducting a major orchestra?
Karajan got his first directorship at about the same age, but it was Aachen, not a major orchestra equivalent to the CSO. He made appearances with the WPO at about the same age. I think it is reasonable for a 28 year old to have engagements with the best orchestras, to have a directorship of a minor orchestra (like Rattle/Birmingham, Karajan/Aachen, etc), but for a 28 year old to have directorship of several top tier orchestras is an outlier, and would only be justified if the individual were truly extraordinary. The way for a young conductor to prove his or her mettle would be to raise the profile of a smaller orchestra.
It also strikes me that we have seen conductors with real vision effectively get booted from their American positions (Salonen, Vanska). I have the sneaking suspicion that the bosses of the CSO like the idea of having a milktoast conductor that wouldn't startle the donors.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 04, 2024, 07:56:03 AMI've never heard a note conducted by Mäkelä, but it seems like one directorship should be enough for him to express his view of music, leaving opportunities for others who also have their views to express.
Ross makes this point effectively by comparing him to Jansons, who spent a long time in Oslo building both the orchestra and his own reputation, and to Salonen, who has now had as many full-time music director jobs in his career as Mäkelä has (!!).
Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2024, 08:57:01 AMRoss makes this point effectively by comparing him to Jansons, who spent a long time in Oslo building both the orchestra and his own reputation, and to Salonen, who has now had as many full-time music director jobs in his career as Mäkelä has (!!).
I have no doubt of a 28 year old producing brilliant performances with top-tier orchestras. But the best music directors are orchestra builders, and I wouldn't image that someone with little experience would be prepared for that.
In any case, I wish him well.
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 07:08:46 AMKM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland.
Can you give an example or two?
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 07:08:46 AMKM's Sibelius is mannered, uninspired, derivative and bland.
I haven't heard it, but if you are right, it points to another problem with the star conductor syndrome. The world is already swimming in good Sibelius cycles, do we really need another one? And at such a young age?
Theoretically, it would be better for KM to make recordings of more obscure music for some label like CPO or Chandos for a while, building his rep and interpretive personality. But if he did that, he wouldn't be a "star," and the major orchestras are invested in stardom.
QuoteRoss makes this point effectively by comparing him to Jansons, who spent a long time in Oslo building both the orchestra and his own reputation, and to Salonen, who has now had as many full-time music director jobs in his career as Mäkelä has (!!).
Jansons was principal conductor of the BBC Welsh (now the BBC NOW)
before Oslo and he hugely impressed there too. There is a lot to be said for a kind of strategic career building - but that said what conductor with an ounce of self belief (that will be all of them then....)
wouldn't take Chicago or Concertgebouw if they were offered it. I think very few conductors "build" an orchestra any more - such is the ubiquity of everyone's work and recorded music that no conductor stays in one place long enough to really create a unqiue orchestral personality/sound/style.
On a parallel track I was impressed recently when football manager Xabi Alonso decided to stay at relatively small Bayer Leverkusen rather than follow the money and prestige to Liverpool (or Bayern Munich). If he's good enough and shows sustained quality the chance
will come.
Here's a youtube upload of the Tapiola recording that
@DavidW had mentioned. There's also more of his Sibelius recordings there too.
Well, it's not letting me upload it here, but if you type in his name and Tapiola, it comes up.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 04, 2024, 09:23:59 AMCan you give an example or two?
I posted on the listening thread, and failed to elaborate here. I unfairly used only one piece-- Tapiola. I was going to go on to a symphony, but I was so unconvinced that I switched to Frescobaldi instead.
Entirely unfair of me to select Sibelius since I usually only listen to my favorites: Vanska, Segerstam and Barbirolli... but KM hasn't recorded that much period. It was either Sibelius or Stravinsky.
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2024, 07:46:00 AMOh, dear! That's not boding well. Did you listen to the Tapiola via your streamer? I'll have to see whether or not I can find anything online with him conducting.
Yes through Qobuz. I think other posters have listened to his Sibelius, and actually through the whole thing and not just one tone poem... maybe they'll pop up on this thread.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 04, 2024, 07:56:03 AMI see a "winner takes all" trend which pervades many areas of our culture, and the dominance of fundraising in roles which should be about creative activity. It is also an issue in the sciences, where funding piles up on superstar researchers, who don't actually do any research, but who are virtuosos of fundraising and self-promotion. Researchers whose work is not flashy or in line with current prejudices too often fall by the wayside. How many Nobel prize winners in science have commented "this never could have been funded today?"
I've never heard a note conducted by Mäkelä, but it seems like one directorship should be enough for him to express his view of music, leaving opportunities for others who also have their views to express.
My thesis adviser had Kip Thorne (one of the biggest names in general relativity) as his adviser and I learned that Kip Thorne would end up having his name on papers that he didn't do anything with. Either his large group did, or he would be just asked for some minimal help or opinions. It is because his name just sells the paper. Having it on there means it will be fast tracked through peer review without much vetting, it will be read more, it will be cited more.
Sad but true.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 04, 2024, 07:56:03 AMI see a "winner takes all" trend which pervades many areas of our culture, and the dominance of fundraising in roles which should be about creative activity. It is also an issue in the sciences, where funding piles up on superstar researchers, who don't actually do any research, but who are virtuosos of fundraising and self-promotion. Researchers whose work is not flashy or in line with current prejudices too often fall by the wayside. How many Nobel prize winners in science have commented "this never could have been funded today?"
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 10:46:00 AMMy thesis adviser had Kip Thorne (one of the biggest names in general relativity) as his adviser and I learned that Kip Thorne would end up having his name on papers that he didn't do anything with. Either his large group did, or he would be just asked for some minimal help or opinions. It is because his name just sells the paper. Having it on there means it will be fast tracked through peer review without much vetting, it will be read more, it will be cited more.
Sad but true.
So much for science being the objective and disinterested pursuit of truth. ;D
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2024, 07:46:00 AMOh, dear! That's not boding well. Did you listen to the Tapiola via your streamer? I'll have to see whether or not I can find anything online with him conducting.
Mäkelä conducted the Oslo PO in
Tapiola at the Proms in 2022, I watched the TV broadcast. On that occasion he was little more than podium decoration, since the musicians evidently knew the music very, very well (probably their touring staple piece). They played like a chamber orchestra, looking inward with exaggerated body language, and Mäkelä tacitly went along with this, seeming rather disinterested and barely bothering to wave his stick along.
That's not to say of course, that he hadn't put the rehearsal time in - and it was, in fact, a very good perfomance of
Tapiola indeed - I found it on iPlayer and recorded it (shh!) and it's my favourite version.
[/quote]
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 04, 2024, 05:46:21 AMPro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good." ;)
Yes indeed, that is a tremendous symphony, one of the best of the last century. Plenty of conductors have demonstrated that already.
(this is not meant as a knock on Mäkelä, just thought it was strange that the poster held him up as someone making the symphony "better than it is")
Quote from: DavidW on April 04, 2024, 10:38:05 AMI posted on the listening thread, and failed to elaborate here. I unfairly used only one piece-- Tapiola. I was going to go on to a symphony, but I was so unconvinced that I switched to Frescobaldi instead.
Entirely unfair of me to select Sibelius since I usually only listen to my favorites: Vanska, Segerstam and Barbirolli... but KM hasn't recorded that much period. It was either Sibelius or Stravinsky.
I have not heard Klaus's Tapiola but could listen to it in comparison with some favorites like Segerstam and Maazel/VPO. But I put on his Sibelius 5 last night and thought it not so bad, I mean the long accelerando in the first movement wasn't as convincing as say Bernstein/NYP or Maazel/VPO, and the whole seemed a bit cautious. Then I listened to Hurwitz's comments - "dreadful this" and "horrible that" - and methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Quote from: brewski on April 02, 2024, 10:54:56 AMFWIW, you can hear his Carnegie Hall debut here (https://www.wqxr.org/story/orchestre-de-paris/?tab=transcript) on WQXR with the Orchestre de Paris, from just a few weeks ago. The program is all-Stravinsky, with The Firebird and The Rite of Spring. I have not yet listened, but will soon.
Decided to start the day with
Stravinsky — why not? — and listen to this concert from 16 March. So far, loving the opening of
The Firebird, with the Paris strings in fine form, and the rest of the ensemble sounds excellent. (This was their first Carnegie Hall appearance in 20 years.)
I mean, a recording from a live performance isn't the same as actually being in the hall, and I am guessing that Carnegie has some of the best engineers in the business, but this sounds pretty marvelous: lots of transparency and sparkle everywhere, especially in solos. Without being able to actually
see the players, they sound completely engaged. Perhaps more comments later, after
The Rite of Spring.
EDIT: OK, the audience is going wild after
The Firebird, and I don't think it's an audience of people who don't know a good performance when they hear one. The ovations are going on and on...and on, and it's only the first half of the program. PS, I have no horse in this game, but this was a terrific performance.
-Bruce
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 04, 2024, 05:46:21 AMPro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good." ;)
I have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). ;) Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.
Quote from: Wanderer on April 05, 2024, 05:06:09 AMI have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). ;)
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.
Just a quick note to say, count me in among those who absolutely love the piece. I heard it live a few weeks ago with
Yannick Nézet-Séguin and alumni from the
National Youth Orchestra of the USA, and it only renewed my admiration. I'm also in love with some of the history, specifically the US premiere in 1942, when Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra broadcast their performance. Imagine millions of people glued to the radio, listening to pretty much
anything. Anyway, one of my favorites by a favorite composer.
-Bruce
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 04, 2024, 10:03:27 AMI think very few conductors "build" an orchestra any more - such is the ubiquity of everyone's work and recorded music that no conductor stays in one place long enough to really create a unqiue orchestral personality/sound/style.
This is a really interesting track of thinking about how the nature and work of conducting has changed over the generations. I would believe it if somebody said most orchestras don't need "building" anymore because standards are so high and conservatories are producing so many ultra-skilled musicians who are able to play anything.
I would
also believe it if somebody said that orchestras today are so unified in sound, so opposed to strong regional/national differences in timbre, that cultivating a distinctive personality with one conductor over 20 years is not really their goal anymore. When Dallas changed over from Jaap to Fabio, the players were already at an extraordinary technical level, and both conductors have jobs on other continents, so the only real change was the double basses moved from the right side to the left.
Quote from: Brian on April 05, 2024, 05:58:26 AMI would believe it if somebody said most orchestras don't need "building" anymore because standards are so high and conservatories are producing so many ultra-skilled musicians who are able to play anything.
This has been my opinion for a long time, after hearing some so-called "second-tier" orchestras, both live and recorded. On a given night, any ensemble can sound like the best orchestra in the world. And one of the reasons: the flood of great players. Plus (and I don't have concrete evidence for this), I imagine music students in general are just
getting better as time marches on. Not to denigrate great artists from the past, and there are thousands of them, but I think the general quality of musicianship has improved. Better teaching? Better methods? Better instruments? I don't know. But today's musicians do seem more agile and versatile than ever.
-Bruce
Honestly even better compositions help! I think a lot about how the bassoon solo at the beginning of Le Sacre was considered almost unplayable at the time it was written, and now is required of every bassoon player in every professional school around the world.
Quote from: Wanderer on April 05, 2024, 05:06:09 AMI have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). ;)
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.
I'd clean forgot about those dark times,
Tasos!
Quote from: brewski on April 05, 2024, 05:32:44 AMJust a quick note to say, count me in among those who absolutely love the piece. I heard it live a few weeks ago with Yannick Nézet-Séguin and alumni from the National Youth Orchestra of the USA, and it only renewed my admiration. I'm also in love with some of the history, specifically the US premiere in 1942, when Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra broadcast their performance. Imagine millions of people glued to the radio, listening to pretty much anything. Anyway, one of my favorites by a favorite composer.
-Bruce
I had already become a fan of the piece by then, but I was in Worcester's
Mechanics Hall when the
Mariinka practically raised its roof playing the
Op. 61. There's a dark Dostoyevskyan irony in
Gergiev's being a chief narrator in a documentary about Shostakovich being under Stalin's thumb, and Putin now having
Gergiev by the short hairs.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 12:54:01 AMSo much for science being the objective and disinterested pursuit of truth. ;D
It is not an issue regarding the objectivity, as I see it. It is mainly an issue of who gets the privilege of doing it, who gets credit for it, and how much energy is expended on the politics.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 12:54:01 AMSo much for science being the objective and disinterested pursuit of truth. ;D
Now you sound like AS... that is the spirit! Oh there is more to it than that. Publish or perish has made research into a regular rat race. Any human endeavor if you look close enough has a seedy, more realistic underbelly. It is just human nature.
Wait... now I sound like AS! :laugh:
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 04, 2024, 05:46:21 AMPro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good." ;)
Well I mean I selected one of the greatest tone poems ever written and wasn't impressed! So eh... I think I'll just take Wanderer's listening session is a sign that I chose the wrong work, or KM just works better live than recorded so far.
Quote from: Wanderer on April 05, 2024, 05:06:09 AMI have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). ;)
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.
Quote from: brewski on April 05, 2024, 05:32:44 AMJust a quick note to say, count me in among those who absolutely love the piece. I heard it live a few weeks ago with Yannick Nézet-Séguin and alumni from the National Youth Orchestra of the USA, and it only renewed my admiration. I'm also in love with some of the history, specifically the US premiere in 1942, when Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra broadcast their performance. Imagine millions of people glued to the radio, listening to pretty much anything. Anyway, one of my favorites by a favorite composer.
-Bruce
To Wanderer's point it was not critically well received when it premiered. (but audiences ate it up). I think Bernstein, Kondrashin, Mravinsky etc did a lot to show the world how great the symphony really is... though some will probably still write it off as vulgar.
Quote from: brewski on April 05, 2024, 06:08:56 AMtoday's musicians do seem more agile and versatile than ever.
Maybe. But are they more musical than ever?
I mean, there were in the past great, even giant, musicians who were notorious for their not quite perfect technique or not very scrupulous adherence to the score, yet who mesmerized audiences with their performances, which were unique, irreproducible events. I'm afraid that in our age, technical perfection and scrupulous fidelity to the score is sought after at the expense of personality. Yes, they are all perfect, all agile, all versatile --- and all alike.
This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:28:44 AMNow you sound like AS... that is the spirit! Oh there is more to it than that. Publish or perish has made research into a regular rat race. Any human endeavor if you look close enough has a seedy, more realistic underbelly. It is just human nature.
Wait... now I sound like AS! :laugh:
Who on earth is AS? ;D
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:42:55 AMAnotherSpin
Ah!
Well, our esteemed colleague (no irony whatsoever implied) is just like anyone else, here and elsewhere: completely wrong on some issues, absolutely right on some others and everything in between on most. :D
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:28:44 AMPublish or perish has made research into a regular rat race
I am reminded of how Schopenhauer got his Ph. D.: he simply sent his doctoral dissertation by mail to the University of Jena and received his Ph. D. diploma
in absentia by mail as well. Good luck to any young philosopher contemplating a similar move today... ;D
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 04, 2024, 08:47:42 AMI have the sneaking suspicion that the bosses of the CSO like the idea of having a milktoast conductor that wouldn't startle the donors.
This is not some sinister marketing honcho conspiracy. Both in Amsterdam and in Chicago orchestra members overwhelmingly voted for Mäkelä. Orchestras like the kid. He clearly has great bedside manners.
And about the olden days, when conductors spent more time with their orchestras, without jet setting about. Those were different orchestras, with often quite a different level of musicians in a lot of chairs. Orchestras these days don't want to see the same face on the podium all season, doing rehearsals, gracefully receiving flowers at the end, etc. It's better for the peace if orchestras and conductors don't get too used to each other.
The reason why Ross is a bit thumbs-downy on Mäkelä may also be the setup of the piece: first Mäkelä, then Salonen. Obviously Salonen is the hero of the story.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 09:05:48 AMI am reminded of how Schopenhauer got his Ph. D.: he simply sent his doctoral dissertation by mail to the University of Jena and received his Ph. D. diploma in absentia by mail as well. Good luck to any young philosopher contemplating a similar move today... ;D
That's called correspondence school.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 05, 2024, 09:31:30 AMThat's called correspondence school.
Have they produced a Schopenhauer ever since they were established?
On the topic of Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director, my two cents are the following:
Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.
For better or worse, this is 2024. Any comparison with Kubelik, Karajan, Szell, Solti or whoever from almost three quarters of a century ago is moot. How can "building an orchestra" be a criterion today, when most orchestras, famous or less famous, are already "built" and could play most, if not all, of the usual, seat-filling and bill-paying repertoire without needing any conducting whatsoever? If you ask me, one could even conceive a not very distant future when we'll revert to the ancient practice of the concertmaster directing the orchestra by beating a time here and signalling an entrance there, while at all times letting his colleagues do their job. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 09:48:28 AMHow can "building an orchestra" be a criterion today, when most orchestras, famous or less famous, are already "built" and could play most, if not all, of the usual, seat-filling and bill-paying repertoire without needing any conducting whatsoever?
A rare (may it always remain so) example was the
BSO, which really needed its vitamins after some complacency had set in towards the end of the
Ozawa era. Levine is contemptible as a human, but musically, he was needed in Boston at the time.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 09:48:28 AMOn the topic of Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director, my two cents are the following:
Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.
For better or worse, this is 2024. Any comparison with Kubelik, Karajan, Szell, Solti or whoever from almost three quarters of a century ago is moot. How can "building an orchestra" be a criterion today, when most orchestras, famous or less famous, are already "built" and could play most, if not all, of the usual, seat-filling and bill-paying repertoire without needing any conducting whatsoever? If you ask me, one could even conceive a not very distant future when we'll revert to the ancient practice of the concertmaster directing the orchestra by beating a time here and signalling an entrance there, while at all times letting his colleagues do their job. ;D
There is something to be said though for a conductor gradually imparting their sound and vision on an orchestra. Certainly the Berlin Philharmonic was well established, but there is no doubt that Karajan with great patient made it his orchestra and you can clearly hear the evolution of the sound as he worked on that string sonority over the decades. If you have guest conductors, and the main director split between multiple commitments you wouldn't see that evolution.
Sometimes it is not about establishing an orchestra, but instead establishing a vision for that orchestra.
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 05, 2024, 09:57:14 AMA rare (may it always remain so) example was the BSO, which really needed its vitamins after some complacency had set in towards the end of the Ozawa era. Levine is contemptible as a human, but musically, he was needed in Boston at the time.
Well, I'm willing to bet ten to one that, if a major orchestra, American or whatever, would play Bruckner's Eighth without conductor, most people in attendance would have no complaint whatsoever. Curmudgeons like Hurwitz and his ilk not counted, they'd have complained about any conductor anyway. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 09:05:48 AMI am reminded of how Schopenhauer got his Ph. D.: he simply sent his doctoral dissertation by mail to the University of Jena and received his Ph. D. diploma in absentia by mail as well. Good luck to any young philosopher contemplating a similar move today... ;D
I believe Cecilia Payne did that in astronomy/astrophysics. She already had done the most important, ground breaking world in the field and was even teaching at Harvard before she submitted her thesis. Payne proposed that stars were composed mostly of hydrogen and helium in her thesis.
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:09:27 AMI believe Cecilia Payne did that in astronomy/astrophysics. She already had done the most important, ground breaking world in the field and was even teaching at Harvard before she submitted her thesis.
Glad to learn that. Looks like there's still hope for humanity. :D
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 10:06:12 AMWell, I'm willing to bet ten to one that, if a major orchestra, American or whatever, would play Bruckner's Eighth without conductor, most people in attendance would have no complaint whatsoever. Curmudgeons like Hurwitz and his ilk not counted, they'd have complained about any conductor anyway. ;D
Note for note. But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work. I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:04:14 AMThere is something to be said though for a conductor gradually imparting their sound and vision on an orchestra. Certainly the Berlin Philharmonic was well established, but there is no doubt that Karajan with great patient made it his orchestra and you can clearly hear the evolution of the sound as he worked on that string sonority over the decades. If you have guest conductors, and the main director split between multiple commitments you wouldn't see that evolution.
That's a good point.
QuoteSometimes it is not about establishing an orchestra, but instead establishing a vision for that orchestra.
I am reminded of what Max Weber once said:
If you want visions, go to the cinema! ;D
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:11:48 AMNote for note. But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work. I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."
Sure. Far be it from me to minimize, or deny altogether, the importance of the conductor --- but it seems to me that the contemporary trend is to see him /make him / force him into, no more than an equal partner of the musicians in the orchestra, at most a
primus inter pares, while in times past he was the absolute master.
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:11:48 AMNote for note. But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work. I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."
That factor is what makes the artistically successful conductor-less ensembles all the more notable.
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 05, 2024, 10:34:17 AMartistically successful conductor-less ensembles
Now that I think of it, is there any such ensemble? Heck, even in the HIP field where they apparently abound, there is that one single personality whose vision (
pace Max Weber) and musicianship paved the way and kept it open and alive.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 10:42:00 AMNow that I think of it, is there any such ensemble? Heck, even in the HIP field where they apparently abound, there is that one single personality whose vision (pace Max Weber) and musicianship paved the way and kept it open and alive.
The most successful I know, perhaps is the
Orpheus Chamber Ensemble.
Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:11:48 AMNote for note. But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work. I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."
well, yes. But this was a documentary about Bernstein, the man who also claimed to have invented Mahler. How could they not say quotable things about Bernstein?
Quote from: Karl Henning on April 05, 2024, 10:51:48 AMThe most successful I know, perhaps is the Orpheus Chamber Ensemble.
Indeed, I concur.
Quote from: Herman on April 05, 2024, 10:52:38 AMBernstein, the man who also claimed to have invented Mahler.
When and where did he claim that?
"He has no genitalia, musically speaking."
(Hurwitz on KM's last album - Petrouchka and Jeux)
Now you know.
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 08:34:37 AMMaybe. But are they more musical than ever?
I mean, there were in the past great, even giant, musicians who were notorious for their not quite perfect technique or not very scrupulous adherence to the score, yet who mesmerized audiences with their performances, which were unique, irreproducible events. I'm afraid that in our age, technical perfection and scrupulous fidelity to the score is sought after at the expense of personality. Yes, they are all perfect, all agile, all versatile --- and all alike.
This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.
So if one wants distinctive performances one should buy old recordings? That suits me fine 8) .
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 05, 2024, 02:48:54 PM"He has no genitalia, musically speaking."
(Hurwitz on KM's last album - Petrouchka and Jeux)
Now you know.
My feeling exactly!
Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 08:34:37 AMMaybe. But are they more musical than ever?
I mean, there were in the past great, even giant, musicians who were notorious for their not quite perfect technique or not very scrupulous adherence to the score, yet who mesmerized audiences with their performances, which were unique, irreproducible events. I'm afraid that in our age, technical perfection and scrupulous fidelity to the score is sought after at the expense of personality. Yes, they are all perfect, all agile, all versatile --- and all alike.
This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.
This has been my experience with "musical" musicians of today with the caveat that this is a
gross generalizationConductors - sort of generic, unless you get off the beaten path to more regional/less known orchestras with exceptional ones like Alexandre Bloch, Andrea Battistoni, etc.
Pianists - just as good as the old times, we are in a golden age of pianism.
Violinists - doesn't feel like the old days, especially when you consider the pre-war ones. Some exceptions I can think of like Vilde Frang. I'm going through the Frank Peter Zimmermann mega box now and it's utter perfection playing but not the most distinctive.
Cellists - I don't think I've heard enough of the newer generation to comment, cello repertoire isn't so vast and I don't explore these as much. I did think Hee-Young Lim was just as good and in ways better than Daniil Shafran when I was comparing one work.
String quartets - more towards the modern side, definitely noone that sound like Pro-Arte, old Budapest, Busch, Capet, Flonzaley, Kolisch, etc.
Orchestra musicians - with the exception of VPO more orchestras sound more alike to me (real life experience, not recordings) than not. For live experiences I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, the couple of times I heard the Malaysian Philharmonic it was a world class experience, even though Claus Peter Flor does err towards that more generic side of conducting with the right repertoire that doesn't really matter.
Quote from: steve ridgway on April 05, 2024, 09:30:42 PMSo if one wants distinctive performances one should buy old recordings? That suits me fine 8) .
Eh... there is plenty of great music making today. I don't buy the narrative that all the great recordings have already been done. It is the effect of hazy nostalgia. I think anyone that held onto their vinyl collection knows that there were plenty of uninspired recordings made in the past. It is just that over time we build up a legacy of great recordings and that is all we remember. It makes it hard for any individual new recording to hold their own against that. But some do, and some will end up being listened to decades later.
Okay it is all fine to be vague but can I point out anything great now? Yes. Period Instrument recordings have evolved tremendously since they started. It is so easy now for baroque and classical era music to find performances with musicians playing freely that feels spontaneous, fresh and never dull with a high level of talent that I really do think exceeds where we started from.
And I also think that there are some exceptional pianists today. If you only listen to Kempff, Brendel, Richter etc. from the past you're really missing out.
Quote from: DavidW on April 06, 2024, 07:44:44 AMEh... there is plenty of great music making today. I don't buy the narrative that all the great recordings have already been done. It is the effect of hazy nostalgia. I think anyone that held onto their vinyl collection knows that there were plenty of uninspired recordings made in the past. It is just that over time we build up a legacy of great recordings and that is all we remember. It makes it hard for any individual new recording to hold their own against that. But some do, and some will end up being listened to decades later.
Okay it is all fine to be vague but can I point out anything great now? Yes. Period Instrument recordings have evolved tremendously since they started. It is so easy now for baroque and classical era music to find performances with musicians playing freely that feels spontaneous, fresh and never dull with a high level of talent that I really do think exceeds where we started from.
And I also think that there are some exceptional pianists today. If you only listen to Kempff, Brendel, Richter etc. from the past you're really missing out.
There's no nostalgia for me as I've only been listening to classical since 2016 and it all sounds fresh. And so, not wishing to waste money and annoy my wife, I take price into consideration and have a preference for used CDs and cheap re-releases of those great recordings you mention 8) .
Quote from: steve ridgway on April 06, 2024, 09:11:57 AMThere's no nostalgia for me as I've only been listening to classical since 2016 and it all sounds fresh. And so, not wishing to waste money and annoy my wife, I take price into consideration and have a preference for used CDs and cheap re-releases of those great recordings you mention 8) .
Well she will still get annoyed when you fill up the house with cds... you've just delayed the inevitable! :laugh:
Quote from: Atriod on April 06, 2024, 05:11:50 AMString quartets - more towards the modern side, definitely noone that sound like Pro-Arte, old Budapest, Busch, Capet, Flonzaley, Kolisch, etc.
We're really in a golden age of string quartet playing now.
Please go to live concerts.
Quote from: DavidW on April 06, 2024, 10:53:03 AMWell she will still get annoyed when you fill up the house with cds... you've just delayed the inevitable! :laugh:
How do you know that he doesn't have it filled up already with *other genres of music? ;) ;D
And I have only myself to blame!
*Books too at my end! :-[
Quote from: Herman on April 06, 2024, 11:06:26 AMWe're really in a golden age of string quartet playing now.
I couldn't agree more with this comment. Without trying, I could probably compile a list of 200-300 great ensembles (and am hearing one of them tonight,
Quatuor Ébène).
-Bruce
Quote from: brewski on April 06, 2024, 12:21:27 PMI couldn't agree more with this comment. Without trying, I could probably compile a list of 200-300 great ensembles (and am hearing one of them tonight, Quatuor Ébène).
-Bruce
Cool! 8) What will they be playing?
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 06, 2024, 12:48:26 PMCool! 8) What will they be playing?
An excellent lineup!
Haydn: Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20, No. 3
Bartók: Quartet No. 3
Schubert: Quartet in G Major, D. 887
-Bruce
Quote from: brewski on April 06, 2024, 01:23:47 PMAn excellent lineup!
Haydn: Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20, No. 3
Bartók: Quartet No. 3
Schubert: Quartet in G Major, D. 887
-Bruce
Great stuff!
Quote from: brewski on April 06, 2024, 01:23:47 PMAn excellent lineup!
Haydn: Quartet in G Minor, Op. 20, No. 3
Bartók: Quartet No. 3
Schubert: Quartet in G Major, D. 887
-Bruce
Sweet!
I replay their Ravel, Debussy and Faure SQs recording fairly often. It is lovely! Also their Beethoven is pretty good (but my favorite modern set is Prazak).
Quote from: DavidW on April 06, 2024, 03:05:31 PMI replay their Ravel, Debussy and Faure SQs recording fairly often. It is lovely! Also their Beethoven is pretty good (but my favorite modern set is Prazak).
Youtube has a live performance of the Faure string quartet with the new, and definitive Ebene, with Marie Chilemme on alto, that's even better IMO.
What? Now Klaus Mäkelä is the music director of the Ebene Quartet? This is getting out of hand!
Well, der Klaus could join the Ebene for Schubert's quintet, but I'm guessing that's not going to happen soon.
The culture-pessimistic wailing would reach intergalactic dimensions.
Quote from: Herman on April 06, 2024, 11:06:26 AMWe're really in a golden age of string quartet playing now.
Please go to live concerts.
I attend plenty of chamber music recitals from amateurs (college or local musicians) to groups that record professionally. Go back to Florestan's post and carefully re-read what he posted and what I was addressing.
Ébène, Diotima (currently in a couple weeks long comparison with Diotima, my modern reference in Bartók, to an older group), Arditti, Mosaïques, etc are all favorites and I will try and stream every new album they release and see them when they come nearby.
Quote from: DavidW on April 06, 2024, 07:44:44 AMEh... there is plenty of great music making today. I don't buy the narrative that all the great recordings have already been done. It is the effect of hazy nostalgia. I think anyone that held onto their vinyl collection knows that there were plenty of uninspired recordings made in the past. It is just that over time we build up a legacy of great recordings and that is all we remember. It makes it hard for any individual new recording to hold their own against that. But some do, and some will end up being listened to decades later.
Okay it is all fine to be vague but can I point out anything great now? Yes. Period Instrument recordings have evolved tremendously since they started. It is so easy now for baroque and classical era music to find performances with musicians playing freely that feels spontaneous, fresh and never dull with a high level of talent that I really do think exceeds where we started from.
And I also think that there are some exceptional pianists today. If you only listen to Kempff, Brendel, Richter etc. from the past you're really missing out.
(To the bolded)
Nor I. The present seems replete with great recordings/artists, as does the past. It is inevitable, and I'd say very normal and healthy that things change, and that people have their preferences. But to say current recordings/artists are lacking in character seems to contradict the observable evidence. I don't think I've ever seen a more intense performer than Trifonov e.g! The canon has been immeasurably enriched by the influx of new blood and thinking imo.
Quote from: Iota on April 07, 2024, 03:45:24 AM(To the bolded)
Nor I. The present seems replete with great recordings/artists, as does the past. It is inevitable, and I'd say very normal and healthy that things change, and that people have their preferences. But to say current recordings/artists are lacking in character seems to contradict the observable evidence. I don't think I've ever seen a more intense performer than Trifonov e.g! The canon has been immeasurably enriched by the influx of new blood and thinking imo.
I agree - I hear impressive new recordings (either of repertoire or performers) all the time. I think there
is an issue with the perception that executional "perfection" (deliberate use of " "!) seems to have taken precedence over musical insight. My sense is that with so many recordings still being produced - I can only assume with little or no hope of them being financially profitable - too many seem to place technical prowess above insight. Of course the
best players offer both which is why there are still great recordings being made. My other sense is that with conductors there seem to be few who are cultivating a deep/productiove relationship with a specific group of musicians. Manfred Honeck in Minnesota is a superb exception. But I cannot think of many/any other conductors who I would recognise either by the style or sound of their recordings (John Wilson might be another - although not in a good way for me!). Orchestras seem now to be interchangeably excellent.
Quote from: Herman on April 06, 2024, 11:06:26 AMWe're really in a golden age of string quartet playing now.
Please go to live concerts.
I agree wholeheartedly but my local newspaper classical music critic passionately disagrees because he thinks too many of today's string quartets are "overplaying." It is hard to be fair to a view I disagree with so passionately, but he seems to think that no matter the size of the hall, quartets should continue to show the soft subtlety and restraint he believes 1800s ensembles displayed, without tending to loudness or excessive energy.
Phew. I can't believe I typed that. But there is at least one person who thinks it!
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2024, 07:10:21 AMI agree wholeheartedly but my local newspaper classical music critic passionately disagrees because he thinks too many of today's string quartets are "overplaying." It is hard to be fair to a view I disagree with so passionately, but he seems to think that no matter the size of the hall, quartets should continue to show the soft subtlety and restraint he believes 1800s ensembles displayed, without tending to loudness or excessive energy.
Phew. I can't believe I typed that. But there is at least one person who thinks it!
Given that I play the violin professionally and also run a professional string quartet, I think I have a certain amount of insight into modern quartets and string playing. Simply put the standard is breath-takingly high. Modern quartets play with a level of individual and collective technical brilliance and phenomenal ensemble that repeatedly makes my jaw drop (not that I'm anywhere near that level!!!). But this does not - to my mind and ear - preclude or replace expressivity/sensitivity as well.
The sad reality is that unlike decades previously I doubt there is a single quartet in the world any more who make their main/sole income from being a quartet. The days of well paid touring and lucrative international recording contracts for quartets are long gone. Perhaps the Emersons did? But they've retired now (or are about to). But the up-side is that quartets play, perform and record together because they want to/enjoy the process so there is a commitment that is not dictated by economics (except of course you have to fit the quartet work around the things that actually pay the bills!)
If I had any critical bservation it would be more to do with the evolution of string playing over the last fifty years. There is a certain conformity that has reduced the differences between schools of playing and/or countries. Of course this is true about larger ensembles/orchestras too and I do miss that difference. I also miss the older style of expressiveness in playing that included audible shifts and acceptance of occasionally rough moments of tone, ensemble or intonation. Now, the ideal is super-clean, super-accurate playing which is of course a valid goal but to my mind it should
not diminsih the validity/value of the older-style of playing as well.
My guess as a modern listener is that if we were transported back to hear 19th Century quartets or orchestras we would struggle to accept the lower overall level of execution I imagine was common. Of course the great players/ensembles would still be great - but the
average level of technical address would be much lower I imagine......
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2024, 07:10:21 AMI agree wholeheartedly but my local newspaper classical music critic passionately disagrees because he thinks too many of today's string quartets are "overplaying." It is hard to be fair to a view I disagree with so passionately, but he seems to think that no matter the size of the hall, quartets should continue to show the soft subtlety and restraint he believes 1800s ensembles displayed, without tending to loudness or excessive energy.
Phew. I can't believe I typed that. But there is at least one person who thinks it!
It always amuses when you bring up your local critic because he really seems to be a pistol!
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 07, 2024, 07:38:06 AMGiven that I play the violin professionally and also run a professional string quartet, I think I have a certain amount of insight into modern quartets and string playing. Simply put the standard is breath-takingly high. Modern quartets play with a level of individual and collective technical brilliance and phenomenal ensemble that repeatedly makes my jaw drop (not that I'm anywhere near that level!!!). But this does not - to my mind and ear - preclude or replace expressivity/sensitivity as well.
The sad reality is that unlike decades previously I doubt there is a single quartet in the world any more who make their main/sole income from being a quartet. The days of well paid touring and lucrative international recording contracts for quartets are long gone. Perhaps the Emersons did? But they've retired now (or are about to). But the up-side is that quartets play, perform and record together because they want to/enjoy the process so there is a commitment that is not dictated by economics (except of course you have to fit the quartet work around the things that actually pay the bills!)
If I had any critical bservation it would be more to do with the evolution of string playing over the last fifty years. There is a certain conformity that has reduced the differences between schools of playing and/or countries. Of course this is true about larger ensembles/orchestras too and I do miss that difference. I also miss the older style of expressiveness in playing that included audible shifts and acceptance of occasionally rough moments of tone, ensemble or intonation. Now, the ideal is super-clean, super-accurate playing which is of course a valid goal but to my mind it should not diminsih the validity/value of the older-style of playing as well.
My guess as a modern listener is that if we were transported back to hear 19th Century quartets or orchestras we would struggle to accept the lower overall level of execution I imagine was common. Of course the great players/ensembles would still be great - but the average level of technical address would be much lower I imagine......
Brilliant summary, very well articulated.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 07, 2024, 04:23:25 AMI think there is an issue with the perception that executional "perfection" (deliberate use of " "!) seems to have taken precedence over musical insight. My sense is that with so many recordings still being produced - I can only assume with little or no hope of them being financially profitable - too many seem to place technical prowess above insight.
I agree there are plenty of those recordings around, but I guess each era has it's fair share of less musically interesting artists, and with the passage of time doing its sifting of wheat and chaff, we tend not to hear so many from previous eras.
I must say I also get the feeling that there's a perception that 'executional perfection'
means a lack of musical thinking sometimes ... it's flawless, so it's robotic. People want to hear 'warts' in their playing to remind them of their humanity. The sheer clarity of recorded sound these days only adds to this dehumanising/distancing I think, particularly for those preferring the less forensic sound of earlier analogue recordings.
Anyway, this is all conjecture of course, but sometimes I do feel artists' qualities get overlooked just because of their great technical facility.
Quote from: Iota on April 07, 2024, 09:30:36 AMI agree there are plenty of those recordings around, but I guess each era has it's fair share of less musically interesting artists, and with the passage of time doing its sifting of wheat and chaff, we tend not to hear so many from previous eras.
I must say I also get the feeling that there's a perception that 'executional perfection' means a lack of musical thinking sometimes ... it's flawless, so it's robotic. People want to hear 'warts' in their playing to remind them of their humanity. The sheer clarity of recorded sound these days only adds to this dehumanising/distancing I think, particularly for those preferring the less forensic sound of earlier analogue recordings.
Anyway, this is all conjecture of course, but sometimes I do feel artists' qualities get overlooked just because of their great technical facility.
I definitely do not want mistakes/warts in my performances or recordings. See the pianists of today being able to play not just at a very high level but with tremendous creativity as well. How many string players today are playing with an immediately distinctive portamento?
Regarding that comparison with Diotima in Bartók, Gábor Takács-Nagy from Mikrokosmos Quartet sounds quite distinctive and recognizable just like when he was in Takács' first cycle on Hungaroton which interpretively I prefer to the more corporate sounding Decca one. Václav Remeš was another tremendous more recent first violinist, but also now retired so can not be counted in the current generation of string players.
(https://i.imgur.com/T5STAzC.jpg)
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2024, 07:10:21 AMI agree wholeheartedly but my local newspaper classical music critic passionately disagrees because he thinks too many of today's string quartets are "overplaying." [...]he seems to think that no matter the size of the hall, quartets should continue to show the soft subtlety and restraint he believes 1800s ensembles displayed, without tending to loudness or excessive energy.
Let's see. Is this perhaps about string quartets playing in symphony size halls; you know, seating 2000? So that they would have to skip ppp?
Otherwise I don't get it. Yes, today's string quartets (some of them) like to rock when rock is called for.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 07, 2024, 07:38:06 AMThe sad reality is that unlike decades previously I doubt there is a single quartet in the world any more who make their main/sole income from being a quartet. The days of well paid touring and lucrative international recording contracts for quartets are long gone. Perhaps the Emersons did?
I'm guessing the Ebene still is making a living touring, recoring and accepting grants. One of the things I often heard is being in a fulltime working quartet is really strenuous; it's like being the Beatles, only harder.
The upside is string quartet audiences are really nice.
Quote from: Herman on April 07, 2024, 10:06:31 AMI'm guessing the Ebene still is making a living touring, recoring and accepting grants. One of the things I often heard is being in a fulltime working quartet is really strenuous; it's like being the Beatles, only harder.
The upside is string quartet audiences are really nice.
and
slightly less well paid......
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 07, 2024, 07:38:06 AMMy guess as a modern listener is that if we were transported back to hear 19th Century quartets or orchestras we would struggle to accept the lower overall level of execution I imagine was common. Of course the great players/ensembles would still be great - but the average level of technical address would be much lower I imagine.
I think we've observed generally the same thing about orchestras, that the members of the world-class orchestras of our day perform at so high a level that the bands have a much easier time mastering music which would have cost an orchestra of, say
Toscanini's day a significantly greater tally of man-hours.
Quote from: Atriod on April 07, 2024, 09:53:02 AMI definitely do not want mistakes/warts in my performances or recordings. See the pianists of today being able to play not just at a very high level but with tremendous creativity as well.
I didn't really mean mistakes when I used 'warts', more playing that was less 'dazzlingly' technically perfect and thus perhaps feeling more 'human'. I should perhaps have made that clearer. And if it also wasn't clear, I love many earlier recordings/artists, irreplaceable talents that I grew up listening to and who have shaped my musical thinking, but I also find a cornucopia of talent and individuality in today's artists too, despite many differences in approach and circumstance.
Quote from: Iota on April 07, 2024, 10:20:28 AMI didn't really mean mistakes when I used 'warts', more playing that was less 'dazzlingly' technically perfect and thus perhaps feeling more 'human'.
It often comes down to how the individual receives the music, I expect. I recall there being criticism on similar lines of the
Emerson Quartet's recording of the
Bartók cycle, which I have always enjoyed, even while puzzling how technical fluency could somehow be a "negative."
Quote from: Brian on April 07, 2024, 07:10:21 AMI agree wholeheartedly but my local newspaper classical music critic passionately disagrees because he thinks too many of today's string quartets are "overplaying." It is hard to be fair to a view I disagree with so passionately, but he seems to think that no matter the size of the hall, quartets should continue to show the soft subtlety and restraint he believes 1800s ensembles displayed, without tending to loudness or excessive energy.
Phew. I can't believe I typed that. But there is at least one person who thinks it!
There is a case that chamber music should be played in a chamber. I heard the Emerson Quartet do all the Bartoks sitting in the top row at Carnegie Hall. Also at Carnegie Hall, the most absurd recital I have ever heard - James Levine and Evgeny Kissin going a program of Schubert 4-hand music at 2 grand pianos to an audience of 2800. Schubert intended those pieces to be played at a single piano in a small room, where the primo and secondo shared the pleasurable excitment of touching each other's hands.
Quote from: Iota on April 07, 2024, 09:30:36 AMThe sheer clarity of recorded sound these days only adds to this dehumanising/distancing I think, particularly for those preferring the less forensic sound of earlier analogue recordings.
Anyway, this is all conjecture of course, but sometimes I do feel artists' qualities get overlooked just because of their great technical facility.
I actually thought about that a great deal when listening to Vanska/Sibelius II. Because I think the performances have emotional heft, but the sheer clarity of the sound gives it a dryness... and I was thinking if I could filter it to sound like a poorly mastered recording of old with limited dynamics that it would end up sounding warmer and more blended and even DH would like it more because it would just sound more engaging. That it was really the sheer transparency that was getting in the way.
Quote from: DavidW on April 07, 2024, 12:12:56 PMif I could filter it to sound like a poorly mastered recording of old with limited dynamics that it would end up sounding warmer and more blended and even DH would like it more because it would just sound more engaging.
To each his own, but isn't it a little weird people want to mess with the way their recordings sound at home, hoping it would sound more like something this crazy guy Hurwitz would possibly like?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 07, 2024, 11:26:49 AMThere is a case that chamber music should be played in a chamber. I heard the Emerson Quartet do all the Bartoks sitting in the top row at Carnegie Hall.
Yeah, it's called chamber music for a reason. I heard the Emersons do the DSCH quartets in Alice Tully Hall, and even that venue was too large. Ideally a chamber music hall should be about 250-500 seats, I think.
Fellow composer-conductor (although I say that, I don't think I'm in his conducting league)
Kevin Scott pointed me to this:
Quote from: Herman on April 07, 2024, 12:29:51 PMTo each his own, but isn't it a little weird people want to mess with the way their recordings sound at home, hoping it would sound more like something this crazy guy Hurwitz would possibly like?
Ha! Yeah true but I would like an equalizer or maybe warmer speakers?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 07, 2024, 12:48:04 PMYeah, it's called chamber music for a reason. I heard the Emersons do the DSCH quartets in Alice Tully Hall, and even that venue was too large. Ideally a chamber music hall should be about 250-500 seats, I think.
At the tail end of covid some members of the local orchestra formed a quartet and performed a concert before just a few dozen in a small hall. It was divine.(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.332515038.9925/pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.u1.jpg)
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on April 07, 2024, 12:48:04 PMYeah, it's called chamber music for a reason. I heard the Emersons do the DSCH quartets in Alice Tully Hall, and even that venue was too large. Ideally a chamber music hall should be about 250-500 seats, I think.
Even Mozart operas (and certainly Handel) do better in a theater of about 500, such as the Drottingholm in Stockholm. Rosen makes the point that in a large opera house, the three little dance orchestras all in different rhythms in the first act finale of Don Giovanni get completely lost.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on April 07, 2024, 09:26:05 PMEven Mozart operas (and certainly Handel) do better in a theater of about 500, such as the Drottingholm in Stockholm. Rosen makes the point that in a large opera house, the three little dance orchestras all in different rhythms in the first act finale of Don Giovanni get completely lost.
problem is, obviously, that opera is a the most expensive form of classical, and you need vast subsidies if you want to do DG in a 500 seat theatre. In comparison string quartets are dirt cheap.
Quote from: DavidW on April 07, 2024, 12:12:56 PMI actually thought about that a great deal when listening to Vanska/Sibelius II. Because I think the performances have emotional heft, but the sheer clarity of the sound gives it a dryness... and I was thinking if I could filter it to sound like a poorly mastered recording of old with limited dynamics that it would end up sounding warmer and more blended and even DH would like it more because it would just sound more engaging. That it was really the sheer transparency that was getting in the way.
This has never occurred with me. Some of the most emotional and/or musical performances I've heard had stunning recording quality. I love the one with Lahti, I heard a handful of the Minnesota symphonies years ago but can't recall much about them, I will check out the second.
I don't have an opinion on Makela yet but he has lots of performances on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=klaus+makela&sp=CAISAhgC). Something people might not know is that in the internet era it is entirely possible for a conductor's legacy to be on YouTube or on other digital streaming platforms like Estrada/Frankfurt, Saraste/WDR, Bychkov/WDR, Altingolu/Frankfurt, and, of course, Rattle/BPO on DCH (Yes he's recorded some albums with them but his true output is on DCH)
My own search reveals performances of at least 20 works so there is no shortage of options.
Quote from: lordlance on April 09, 2024, 01:23:37 AMI don't have an opinion on Makela yet but he has lots of performances on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=klaus+makela&sp=CAISAhgC). Something people might not know is that in the internet era it is entirely possible for a conductor's legacy to be on YouTube or on other digital streaming platforms like Estrada/Frankfurt, Saraste/WDR, Bychkov/WDR, Altingolu/Frankfurt, and, of course, Rattle/BPO on DCH (Yes he's recorded some albums with them but his true output is on DCH)
My own search reveals performances of at least 20 works so there is no shortage of options.
One thing Bruce has taught me is how ubiquitous the live performance stream has become. I think it is no replacement for being there, but still pretty neat!
Quote from: lordlance on April 09, 2024, 01:23:37 AMconductor's legacy to be on YouTube or on other digital streaming platforms like Estrada/Frankfurt, Saraste/WDR, Bychkov/WDR, Altingolu/Frankfurt, and, of course, Rattle/BPO on DCH (Yes he's recorded some albums with them but his true output is on DCH)
Dima Slobodeniouk and the Sinfonia Galicia is another example of a big youtube footprint.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on April 04, 2024, 09:00:12 AMI have no doubt of a 28 year old producing brilliant performances with top-tier orchestras. But the best music directors are orchestra builders, and I wouldn't image that someone with little experience would be prepared for that.
In any case, I wish him well.
An orchestra of the caliber of the CSO doesn't need an orchestra builder. It's as "built" as it gets. It needs a superstar to sell tickets and sell out tours because he's a household name. Last weekend's CSO concerts were sold out. Not bad for the post pandemic arts scene. I'd say the CSO got what it wanted.
Aaaanywaayyy.... getting back to the CSO and Mäkelä... here is the radio broadcast of his most recent CSO appearance prior to this season. There's a terrific Mahler 5 with David Cooper in top form. The second movement is one of the best paced and structured I have heard:
https://soundcloud.com/chicagosymphony/sets/makela-conducts-lopez-bellido-mahler-5
Quote from: MishaK on April 10, 2024, 01:07:54 AMAn orchestra of the caliber of the CSO doesn't need an orchestra builder. It's as "built" as it gets. It needs a superstar to sell tickets and sell out tours because he's a household name. Last weekend's CSO concerts were sold out. Not bad for the post pandemic arts scene. I'd say the CSO got what it wanted.
There's an interesting video online of Makela being introduced to the orchestra for a rehearsal just after the announcement of his appointment. A couple of things to note; 1) the reception by the orchestra is genuinely warm and lengthy from the whole group - from which the conclusion has to be that the players are definitely on-board with the appointment at this time. 2) Makela says a few well-chosen words about his pleasure excitement etc but also says - almost as a throw-away - how much he's looking forward to all their tours and recordings together which definitely chimes with what MishaK references in his post. To be honest why
shouldn't an orchestra be pleased at the opportunity to maximise their collective and individual incomes!
Back in the day a cynic at the BBC NOW said the best thing about Richard Hickox was his recording contract with Chandos....... make of that what you will........
PS: I would disagree that any orchestra doesn't need "building". Fair enough they already play brilliantly but any Music Director worth their salt will introduce different priorities musically, different style, different repertoire. Any orchestra can and should grow from where they currently are......
I read somewhere (perhaps it was in a link that someone here had given?) that the PTB conducted a survey of who the musicians wanted as their conductor--top three. One of the musicians wrote Mäkelä's name in the three spaces allotted. :)
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 10, 2024, 01:33:51 AMPS: I would disagree that any orchestra doesn't need "building". Fair enough they already play brilliantly but any Music Director worth their salt will introduce different priorities musically, different style, different repertoire. Any orchestra can and should grow from where they currently are......
It calls to mind advice the Simon Rattle said that Karajan gave him, "The sound of an orchestra is like one of your English Gardens, you have to take care of it every day. Not only do you have to water it and encourage it, but you have to weed it as well."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ceXbC9SF1E
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 10, 2024, 01:33:51 AMThere's an interesting video online of Makela being introduced to the orchestra for a rehearsal just after the announcement of his appointment. A couple of things to note; 1) the reception by the orchestra is genuinely warm and lengthy from the whole group - from which the conclusion has to be that the players are definitely on-board with the appointment at this time. 2) Makela says a few well-chosen words about his pleasure excitement etc but also says - almost as a throw-away - how much he's looking forward to all their tours and recordings together which definitely chimes with what MishaK references in his post. To be honest why shouldn't an orchestra be pleased at the opportunity to maximise their collective and individual incomes!
Back in the day a cynic at the BBC NOW said the best thing about Richard Hickox was his recording contract with Chandos....... make of that what you will........
PS: I would disagree that any orchestra doesn't need "building". Fair enough they already play brilliantly but any Music Director worth their salt will introduce different priorities musically, different style, different repertoire. Any orchestra can and should grow from where they currently are......
Yes, I saw the video. There are also numerous social media posts from various CSO musicians that likewise attest to a genuine joy and rapport. There are 15 positions to be filled in the CSO, so Mäkelä will have his chance to do some orchestra building.
Quote from: Roasted Swan on April 07, 2024, 04:23:25 AMManfred Honeck in Minnesota is a superb exception.
Surely you mean Pittsburgh!
Quote from: MishaK on April 15, 2024, 08:09:23 PMSurely you mean Pittsburgh!
Oh for goodness sake I'm so stupid!!! (but he is very good......)