In another thread, our esteemed colleagues
@San Antone and
@DavidW made the point, to which I subscribe based on personal experience, that the average concert/opera-goers, while fully enjoying their evening at the concert hall/opera house, nevertheless are not obsessed with the music and few of them, if any, own multiple recordings of it, let alone compare them. For these people classical music in whatever form seems to be just a welcome diversion from their daily drudgery.
This attitude strikes me as completely different from that of the average GMG member, for whom classical music in the guise of different recordings and performances is their daily bread-and-butter. It seems to me that, for most of us, classical music is really an obsession --- from dawn till dusk we listen to and think about nothing else than classical music, recordings, performances, comparisons etc. Looks like our families, our jobs, our friends and our entire social environment have no other role than to support, and bear with, our classical music obsession. Looks like without this continuous and exclusive focus on classical music, our lives would be devoid of meaning and purpose.
Oftentimes I think that this is completely and absolutely unhealthy, that there is much more to life than classical music, and that those for whom classical music is just a welcome diversion from their daily drudgery have it right and live a more balanced life than those for whom classical music is an obsession.
What do you think?
Music is the obsession to me, not just classical music.
I need Lenny Kravitz as much as I need Mozart, maybe more.
Quote from: Henk on June 04, 2024, 01:11:38 PMMusic is the obsession to me, not just classical music.
I need Lenny Kravitz as much as I need Mozart, maybe more.
Suppose you were born 200 years ago. No power stations, no recordings, no internet, no Lenny Kravitz. What then?
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:16:47 PMSuppose you were born 200 years ago. No power stations, no recordings, no internet, no Lenny Kravitz. What then?
Going to live-concerts at the end of the day, probably. During the day it would be a problem. Really a misfortune to have been born 200 years ago. I would go hiking or something, be surrounded by the sounds of nature. Maybe I would play an instrument and invent jazz. ☺️
Quote from: Henk on June 04, 2024, 01:23:34 PMReally a misfortune to have been born 200 years ago.
Relating to classical music, not at all, in my opinion. On the contrary, I am firmly of the opinion that people in 1824 had a more healthy and profound relationship to "classical" music than WE have.
QuoteMaybe I would play an instrument
A-ha!
Quote from: Henk on June 04, 2024, 01:23:34 PMGoing to live-concerts at the end of the day, probably.
Except that concerts back then were (1) not daily, and (2) completely different from our contemporary concerts. They lasted an average of four hours and mixed vocal, solo instrumental and orchestral numbers; applause between numbers/sections were customary, implying that the number/section applauded had to be repeated.
QuoteDuring the day it would be a problem.
In 1824 music in whatever form was much more part of the daily experience of the average citizen than in 2024.
You know, the past is a foreign country.
Not an obsession, but very important. I also listen to inordinate amounts of a variety of metal genres, but classical music is probably more important to me.
I'm fortunate to work from home, so can spend a large part of my working day accompanied by music. Aside from that, I have dreadful tinnitus and can't work in silence.
Good old classical music.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:39:08 PMExcept that concerts back then were (1) not daily, and (2) completely different from our contemporary concerts. They lasted an average of four hours and mixed vocal, solo instrumental and orchestral numbers; applause between numbers/sections were customary, implying that the number/section applauded had to be repeated.
I think people heard music more often at home. It was pretty common to buy a keyboard and have some playing and singing, especially after dinner. And music is still of course customary at church service.
I think another thing that makes our obsession different is that for most of us it is an obsession with collecting recordings. Streaming is the great equalizer. I wonder how many times MI bragged about a recording being rare or OOP only to have someone post a youtube link? :laugh:
A thing that many of us would find strange, but one thing my students get really excited about is Spotify Wrapped where they get shown the music they listened to and rediscover old favorites. And it truly is a rediscovery because they just ramble along (but they still have favorite artists and albums).
I think what streaming, radio listening, and then casual concert going may have in common (but not always) is just taking in the music as an experience and then letting it go. Can we let it go? Hold on, I'm about to listen to Vanska II Sibelius 2 and 5 while mentally comparing to Vanska I, Barbirolli and Segerstam... oh yeah I guess I can't let it go! :P
Quote from: DavidW on June 04, 2024, 02:01:53 PMI think people heard music more often at home. It was pretty common to buy a keyboard and have some playing and singing, especially after dinner.
Exactly. I claim that amateur playing and singing was a much more healthy and profound way of engaging with, and experiencing of, "classical music" than listening to, and comparing of, multiple recordings.
I think for many the obsession is more about studying the music, practicing it and possibly performing and/or composing it more so than a focus on recordings and comparisons. The latter didn't exist when classical music was arguably at its peak. Many heavily involved at the former may not even find much time for interacting on a forum such as this.
I think anything in excess can be problematic, and I agree a balance in life is good. On the other hand I suspect those that don't care deeply about something in life generally don't live very fulfilling lives. That something doesn't have to be music of course. But I suspect that those that care deeply about music get more out of their musical experiences in general compared to those who use it as a simple diversion.
Quote from: atardecer on June 04, 2024, 02:23:06 PMthose that care deeply about music
What do you mean? What is/are the mark(s) of one who cares deeply about the music?
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 02:26:56 PMWhat do you mean?
Seeing music as something that can be more than just entertainment or a diversion. Having profound experiences related to music and seeking to understand the experience and cultivate it in one's life. Seeing music as something important.
Quote from: atardecer on June 04, 2024, 02:33:59 PMSeeing music as something that can be more than just entertainment or a diversion. Having profound experiences related to music and seeking to understand the experience and cultivate it in one's life. Seeing music as something important.
In other words, being obsessed with classical music. ;D
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 02:36:44 PMIn other words, being obsessed with classical music. ;D
I prefer saying care deeply. Obsession can suggest something potentially unhealthy and unbalanced, which can happen of course. I agree with you that balance in life is good. I suspect having some balance is more conducive to artistic inspiration, rather than hyper-focusing on one thing too much. I think it is good to care, but not to the exclusion of other important things. I also think sometimes there is a danger in becoming arrogant or starting to feel superior to others when one becomes obsessed.
Quote from: atardecer on June 04, 2024, 02:51:46 PMObsession can suggest something potentially unhealthy and unbalanced,
Exactly. Listening to, and comparing, and ranking, 245 different recordings of Beethoven's Pathetique piano sonata is complete and absolute madness.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:07:59 PMIn another thread, our esteemed colleagues @San Antone and @DavidW made the point, to which I subscribe based on personal experience, that the average concert/opera-goers, while fully enjoying their evening at the concert hall/opera house, nevertheless are not obsessed with the music and few of them, if any, own multiple recordings of it, let alone compare them. For these people classical music in whatever form seems to be just a welcome diversion from their daily drudgery.
This attitude strikes me as completely different from that of the average GMG member, for whom classical music in the guise of different recordings and performances is their daily bread-and-butter. It seems to me that, for most of us, classical music is really an obsession --- from dawn till dusk we listen to and think about nothing else than classical music, recordings, performances, comparisons etc. Looks like our families, our jobs, our friends and our entire social environment have no other role than to support, and bear with, our classical music obsession. Looks like without this continuous and exclusive focus on classical music, our lives would be devoid of meaning and purpose.
Oftentimes I think that this is completely and absolutely unhealthy, that there is much more to life than classical music, and that those for whom classical music is just a welcome diversion from their daily drudgery have it right and live a more balanced life than those for whom classical music is an obsession.
What do you think?
There was a time when I was more "obsessed" with comparing recordings than I am now, or have been for a pretty long while. Now, I listen to recent recordings of works I know I like, and don't even think about how they compare to others. I enjoy new music which I mainly find on YouTube. Streaming satisfies my completist gene since I can assemble all the recordings of an artist (or dozens of recordings of a popular work) without spending any money other than the monthly subscription fee. The audio quality on Spotify Premium fine for me. I do most of my listening driving since where I love I often have 45 minutes or more drive time.
I rarely buy CDs anymore (when I do it is usually of a box set of a specific period, artist, or style of non-classical music, e.g. Smithsonian Folkways offers a number of these kinds of sets), and rely on streaming for almost all of my listening, especially classical music.
I used to be obsessed with classical music around 1997-2002 when it all was very new to me. Later on I have even struggled to connect well with it. Music in general means less for me these days. Still means a lot, but not the way it has in the past. Nowadays I enjoy listening to people talk on Youtube. Some people just have mesmerising voice to listen to, no matter what they are talking about. Those people tend to be Youtubers, surprise surprise. So often I rather listen to Vaush (https://www.youtube.com/@Vaush) rant about something than listen to classical music. My life feels weird, but it is what it is. I have changed so much as a person...
It is an enjoyable hobby. A lot of people on this forum appear to think about music too much. And some people think way too much about what other people think of music. Go outside. Smell the roses. Take a walk. Eat a sandwich. Etc.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 03:06:05 PMExactly. Listening to, and comparing, and ranking, 245 different recordings of Beethoven's Pathetique piano sonata is complete and absolute madness.
Suspiciously specific! ;D
Like others here, I wouldn't say "obsessed," but "care deeply" is pretty good. Classical music has been a hugely enjoyable part of my life since childhood. Other people in my family are classical lovers (and performers). I have been lucky to live in places with thriving classical music culture, and I do enjoy going to concerts or watching livestreams often — not every day, but 1-2 times a week is a good yardstick.
That said, I do love many other kinds of music, though I don't often hear much of it live. Some of that is due to a self-imposed limit on volume levels. After a few excruciatingly loud concerts over the years (almost always not classical), I have pulled the plug on anything that looks like it may be too loud. And I also value silence; it's good to have lots of time during the day with no music at all.
Anyway, I can't imagine life without classical music. Love hearing it, thinking about it, writing about it, and talking about it with friends.
-Bruce
Quote from: Todd on June 04, 2024, 04:27:35 PMIt is an enjoyable hobby. A lot of people on this forum appear to think about music too much. And some people think way too much about what other people think of music. Go outside. Smell the roses. Take a walk. Eat a sandwich. Etc.
And now you can take some of your 245 recordings of Beethoven's Pathétique Sonata to listen and compare while you're out touching grass.
I am not "obsessed". I reject this framing, when does something become an "obsession"?
The idea is probably that an obsession has become "unhealthy". I seriously doubt that this could be said even about highly dedicated friends of classical music because unlike smoking, drinking, eating too much etc. even excessive listening or buying music would usually not be hurtful. Sure, if one gets into a lot of debt to finance expensive equipment or concert tickets or spends the weekends away at some opera house, neglecting their family, one might have a point. But I am pretty sure that such cases are quite rare, much rarer than "obsession" with sports or nowadays maybe also computer games.
I think it's generally good when people deeply care about something. In our cynical and superficial age the danger of becoming "obsessed" with something genuinely worth caring about (i.e. not some consumerist fake stuff like collecting Magic cards or StarWars costumes, but even this deserves more respect than cynicism) is not so pressing as the danger of becoming a distant cynic who doesn't care about anything, even if he could pay attention to anything longer than a few minutes.
For me collecting various recordings of a piece is not primarily a question of comparison. It's more about having the choice to experience different interpretations. Listening exclusively to one version would make my perception of the piece quite one-dimensional, because no single recording can capture the entire essence of the work. My practice stems from a profound interest for the music. Calling it an obsession unfairly highlights the negative associations to what for me has been nothing but positive and mentally enriching encounters with the music that interests me.
I don't think I have ever collected a piece or recordings of a specific artists obsessively, i.e. hunting for extreme rarities, bootlegs or striving for completeness.
This doesn't mean I have not ordered a few things from abroad when this was the only option or paid a bit more for something I wanted. But both rarely, I'd usually rather wait for a better price and I could probably count my foreign orders (that were not via Amazon dealers) within ~20 years still on both hands (IIRC 2-3 Japan, 2-3 BRO, not sure about within Europe because this was no problem and only little higher costs before Brexit). I am not a casual buyer but neither a collector who obsesses with completeness, rarity or whatever for their own sake.
Most of the time, I was also too poor or too lazy to go out of my way for opera or concert performances. I attended some when I was travelling anyway or when it was close, but have not spent lots of money for travelling and tickets. But I don't think there would be anything with spending on that.
Not obsessed, it's just an enjoyable hobby and the historical and geographical interest spreads wider than with rock music.
Quote from: DavidW on June 04, 2024, 05:02:16 PMSuspiciously specific! ;D
To the point of being an obsession.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:07:59 PM.. It seems to me that, for most of us, classical music is really an obsession --- from dawn till dusk we listen to and think about nothing else than classical music, recordings, performances, comparisons etc. Looks like our families, our jobs, our friends and our entire social environment have no other role than to support, and bear with, our classical music obsession. Looks like without this continuous and exclusive focus on classical music, our lives would be devoid of meaning and purpose.
Fwiw, this doesn't describe me at all.
I care very much about music, classical most of all, and it regularly transports me to temporary state I might describe as a kind of ecstasy. I almost never listen to it while doing something else, it diminishes the experience considerably for me.
When I'm not listening, which is most of the time, I think about it, but not remotely close to most of the time. I am though permanently in a state of gratitude that it exists, and a state of astonishment at the gift that so many have for composing and playing it. That never goes away even when I'm not in the mood for listening.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:16:47 PMSuppose you were born 200 years ago. No power stations, no recordings, no internet, no Lenny Kravitz. What then?
My longstanding thought: imaging living in Beethoven's time, and hearing the Ninth Symphony
once — once only, and never again. It is hard for me to even imagine, after being born in an age when you can hear something hundreds, or even thousands of times. I'm grateful to live in the 21st century, when that option is easily available.
-Bruce
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:16:47 PMSuppose you were born 200 years ago. No power stations, no recordings, no internet, no Lenny Kravitz. What then?
It was more common back then for most people play an instrument and make music with their families and friends; an active participation as opposed to our passive method.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:16:47 PMSuppose you were born 200 years ago. No power stations, no recordings, no internet, no Lenny Kravitz. What then?
I don't quite see the point. Do you ask yourself anytime you use any commodity that would not have been (or only rarely) available 200 years ago, not only modern media but also indoor plumbing, affordable exotic fruit, medical service etc. "what if I had been born 200 years ago?"
Some people were as much or more obsessed with music, arts etc. then if they could afford it (or in an escapist way from a life they struggled to cope with). While it's only about 130 years ago, Mann uses the musical obsession of the teenaged Hanno to show the decadence of the Buddenbrooks. Someone like Hoffmann might count as a real life case (although he needed his writing and booze as well)
Quote from: brewski on June 05, 2024, 04:45:27 AMMy longstanding thought: imaging living in Beethoven's time, and hearing the Ninth Symphony once — once only, and never again. It is hard for me to even imagine, after being born in an age when you can hear something hundreds, or even thousands of times. I'm grateful to live in the 21st century, when that option is easily available.
-Bruce
That still happens to me... not great music but good stuff... the students here have a music class for the interim period where they write their own music and perform it for the school. I hear it once and never again!
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 02:11:37 PMExactly. I claim that amateur playing and singing was a much more healthy and profound way of engaging with, and experiencing of, "classical music" than listening to, and comparing of, multiple recordings.
In the time it would take it would take you to learn to play a single Bach partita masterfully I could listen to all keyboard works of Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Faure! :laugh:
I'll take the easy way. :)
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 02:11:37 PMExactly. I claim that amateur playing and singing was a much more healthy and profound way of engaging with, and experiencing of, "classical music" than listening to, and comparing of, multiple recordings.
I love this!
Had I not prepared and performed Stravinsky's
Mass (or insert a preferred title), most likely it would be just another piece of music I learned to enjoy by a composer. But spending the time to work out the structure, the harmonies, the balances, and knowing the piece inside and out, makes it rather special.
The first piano piece I learned from Robert Schumann was
Aufschwung. It continues to hold a special place because I know the time and efforts to make it playable (for me), but also I know every nook and cranny of the musical parts and what parts of me it takes to play through it. The same goes with Debussy's
Bruyères, which was the first time I read off of three staves and the first time I used the sostenuto pedal.
I hate to overuse the word special, but that is what living with music you work out for yourself is. If composing music is giving birth, then learning and performing music must be love making. Does this make listening to music watching from afar? I personally prefer the learning... ;)
VS
Quote from: DavidW on June 05, 2024, 07:06:41 AMIn the time it would take it would take you to learn to play a single Bach partita masterfully I could listen to all keyboard works of Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Faure! :laugh:
I'll take the easy way. :)
What amateur back then played Bach, let alone masterfully? ;D
Quote from: Florestan on June 05, 2024, 09:51:09 AMWhat amateur back then played Bach, let alone masterfully? ;D
Oh I thought you meant today. I thought you were announcing your intentions to jump into performance! ;D
Quote from: DavidW on June 05, 2024, 07:06:41 AMIn the time it would take it would take you to learn to play a single Bach partita masterfully I could listen to all keyboard works of Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Faure! :laugh:
I'll take the easy way. :)
As a pretty lousy musician, I still find the process of creating a cringeworthy performance deeply satisfying in a way that listening to Kempff is not.
And, to answer the original question, yes I am obsessed by any reasonable definition, with various negative consequences.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on June 05, 2024, 10:06:18 AMAs a pretty lousy musician, I still find the process of creating a cringeworthy performance deeply satisfying in a way that listening to Kempff is not.
Exactly my point: an active enjoyment of music is more satisfying than a passive one.
Quote from: DavidW on June 05, 2024, 07:06:41 AMIn the time it would take it would take you to learn to play a single Bach partita masterfully I could listen to all keyboard works of Bach, Schubert, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn and Faure! :laugh:
I'll take the easy way. :)
Learning to play an instrument as a child used to be routine; and I understand trying to do that as an adult is very hard. But having the direct experience of playing the music (AOT listening to it from a recording) is a rewarding and rich experience that I would encourage any music lover to attempt.
One needn't begin with the hardest music, Bach Partita, but the Two Part Inventions would be possible.
Quote from: Florestan on June 05, 2024, 10:11:04 AMExactly my point: an active enjoyment of music is more satisfying than a passive one.
I doubt that. It's probably different.
I have often a more or less shallow listening experience and sometimes I have deep, captivating ones.
That a performer is closer to the music, doesn't mean he better grasps it. He's busy performing, he's a medium in order for us to fully appreciate the music, which may happen or happen not. Think of it as a cooperation.
Listening to music is not just 'passive'.
Quote from: Henk on June 05, 2024, 11:07:18 AMI doubt that. It's probably different.
I have often a more or less shallow listening experience and sometimes I have deep, captivating ones.
That a performer is closer to the music, doesn't mean he better grasps it. He's busy performing, he's a medium in order for us to fully appreciate the music, which may happen or happen not. Think of it as a cooperation.
Listening to music is not just 'passive'.
Well put.
I am obsessed with classical music.
I don't believe that fact makes me in any way unusual, as in my experience everyone obsesses about something. 8)
Quote from: Florestan on June 05, 2024, 10:11:04 AMExactly my point: an active enjoyment of music is more satisfying than a passive one.
Quote from: Henk on June 05, 2024, 11:07:18 AMI doubt that. It's probably different.
I assure you it's true. To give only a trivial example, there are some pieces I don't much enjoy in passive listening, but of which I find it gratifying to participate in a performance:
Carmina burana,
Messiah, e.g. Also, most of
Britten's church-adjacent choral music.
Quote from: Henk on June 05, 2024, 11:07:18 AMListening to music is not just 'passive'.
I accept that, but it is
comparatively passive.
TD: I'm unsure how to answer the question. Is someone who composes music "obsessed" with music? It may depend on the composer or, as in my case, I wonder if obsess is at all an apt word.
Quote from: Florestan on June 04, 2024, 01:07:59 PMLooks like without this continuous and exclusive focus on classical music, our lives would be devoid of meaning and purpose.
I somehow missed this absolutely bizarre sentence. We all have lives. We're here just because we can talk about this niche topic with others that also care. And this is a community that has been home for many of us for decades.
I took a hiatus from the forum for several years and did not devolve into an existential crisis in meaning or purpose... I just continued living my life! :laugh:
I think there is nothing bizarre or unhealthy about listening to music and sharing with other people that like the same thing. I also don't feel like I need to learn an instrument to absolve myself of some sin of being just a filthy listener. We can all appreciate music however we want, and all are welcome whether they be listeners, performers, composers,... and whatever Greg is ;)
My experience aligns with those emphasizing active enjoyment of music over (relatively) passive enjoyment.
Playing pieces at a pro-level is not necessary. The essence of music is an idea. The music in it's audible manifestation is acting as a symbol that points the way to something else that is more substantial - the actual essence or idea. Any performance no matter how masterful is only an approximation. By participating in music actively one can get closer to the essence.
As an example I've been playing through Ravel's La vallée des cloches lately. My playing is slower and not masterful like the pros, yet I get substantially more enjoyment this way. I feel I get closer to the core of the music compared to listening to any recording.
I think some people obsess too much about minutiae in music performance nowadays. As Beethoven said mistakes are insubstantial, the feel is more important.
Nowadays many act like only top level pro-performances are valid musical expressions. I don't agree. I think it is possible for an amateur to move someone profoundly with their playing and that is what music is about.
I'm fine with pros polishing and working the pieces as much as they want, that's great. It doesn't give them a monopoly on playing music. I think it is completely possible for a listener to be more moved by an amateur playing a piece (particularly the many works that are not highly virtuosic) compared to a pro, because music is not about only technical accuracy or precision or polish. There is an element of rhythmic feel and phrasing that some possess inherently.
I don't mind being obsessed. And as everyone I know also thinks I am, there wouldn't be much point arguing anyway. I have a permanent absorption of and in classical music which inflects how I see the world itself, I think - I'd be hard=pressed to define exactly how, but I've always felt it. I can't really imagine it any other way and wouldn't want to.
However, earlier posts in this thread conflated 'obsession with classical music' with 'obsession with collecting/comparing recordings' as if that were true for all of us. Subsequent posts have pushed back against that idea somewhat and certainly it is true for me that my obsession is less with comparison of the various ways I can hear a piece than with what I could maybe call the Platonic ideal of the piece itself - the composer's ideas, as presented in the score, from which those recordings all derive. It is these notes, their history, their sources, their behaviours, the people who conceived both of them and of all their interrelationships, the places and societies from which they sprung etc. etc. etc. which obsess me above all. Though I am interested in recordings and their comparisons, and can sometimes be passionate enough about a particular one to mention it here, I would rather talk about why Janacek's String Quartets are so unutterably fantastic (say) than about which quartet plays them best.
Quote from: Luke on June 06, 2024, 08:47:19 AMwould rather talk about why Janacek's String Quartets are so unutterably fantastic (say) than about which quartet plays them best.
A phrase I learnt from
PG Wodehouse:
rem acu tetigisti
I'm going to have to look that one up, Karl!
By the way, I wouldn't want to give the impression that I'm not interested in comparing recordings at all. Just this week, for instance, I have been quite caught up in comparing recordings of the Bach cello suites. I already had about five or six different versions, which I know is not a lot around these parts but I think would be thought of as excessive by the general population, but this week I got hold of four more. Nevertheless, I'd still rather talk about the notes which all the versions have in common than about what divides the different interpretations.
I have now looked it up, Karl :D
Quote from: Luke on June 06, 2024, 08:47:19 AMI would rather talk about why Janacek's String Quartets are so unutterably fantastic (say) than about which quartet plays them best.
But in that case you won't know
how unutterably fantastic they are until you have heard Quartetto Energie Nove play them (partly a question of edition, reinstated passages etc.)
Quote from: Luke on June 06, 2024, 08:47:19 AMThough I am interested in recordings and their comparisons, and can sometimes be passionate enough about a particular one to mention it here, I would rather talk about why Janacek's String Quartets are so unutterably fantastic (say) than about which quartet plays them best.
I find it very illuminating to listen to a different recording of a piece every time (more or less) I listen to it. There is a bit more of the concert-like experience because you don't quite know what to expect. I try to exclude "best" from my vocabulary when talking about a particular recording, and try to communicate some meaningful attribute I enjoy (or perhaps don't enjoy) about a particular recording/performance. And I agree with your allusion to the "platonic ideal" of a piece, which I feel can be approached by mentally distilling the essence of the music from individual performances.
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 04, 2024, 01:58:03 PMNot an obsession, but very important. I also listen to inordinate amounts of a variety of metal genres, but classical music is probably more important to me.
I'm fortunate to work from home, so can spend a large part of my working day accompanied by music. Aside from that, I have dreadful tinnitus and can't work in silence.
Good old classical music.
Yes the same for me!
That gives me great sadness to hear, Tinnitus is a dreadful affliction, and no cure is available.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2024, 11:28:33 PMBut in that case you won't know how unutterably fantastic they are until you have heard Quartetto Energie Nove play them (partly a question of edition, reinstated passages etc.)
Of course, I want to hear them played well and with understanding and, given my interest in the notes themselves, clearly I want to hear any textual revelations such as you describe. But then I want to think and talk about how, and why, these marvelous pieces are what they are, never mind who is playing them. I'm more interested, for example, in the fact of Janacek's extraordinary use of ponticello writing in these quartets - how and why and where he deploys it - than in whose ponticello is 'best'. And this is in spite of the fact that the issue of how the ponticello is done in these pieces - the degree to which it is used, how much of the original, fingered pitch is left to be heard - is actually truly transformative and makes a massive difference between different readings.
Of course I have my favourite recordings of the quartets, and also those I dislike (above all for misreading the score). But questions of harmony, form, motive etc etc trump questions of interpretation for me.
Somehow, in my sporadic and quick visits in the last few days, I have missed this topic!
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 06, 2024, 08:50:45 AMA phrase I learnt from PG Wodehouse: rem acu tetigisti
Quote from: Luke on June 06, 2024, 09:05:36 AMI have now looked it up, Karl :D
I missed a chance to show off and give my $5.00 lecture on Latin catch-phrases! 😇
Older members might know that from my earliest days (2 1/2 to 3 years old) I was instantly attracted to the Classical-Music pastiches by
Carl Stalling heard in the great cartoons from Warner Brothers, along with their counterparts from Universal with the musical efforts of the lesser known
Darrell Calker.
I knew from that age that there was something better in the cartoon music than in the ditties my mother played from the dying days of the Big Band era, and then later, 1950's rock-'n'-roll. (My father, despite his mother being a fine pianist, had practically no interest in music.)
The first piece I identified with a composer was
Smetana's Moldau, again courtesy of a children's program, which played the music with film of rain clouds forming, then of droplets hitting leaves, the raindrops forming puddles, then draining into streams leading into a river. A Moldau Music Video, so to speak.
So, yes, proudly obsessed! (Looking at a score, I will easily microanalyze 32nd notes, until I take a deep breath and step back and tell myself to move on!) ;D
Early childhood obsessions:
Wagner, Bruckner, Beethoven, Dvorak, von Suppe,' Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, and others, followed closely by
Mahler, Schoenberg, Scriabin, Alexander Tcherepnin, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Louis Vierne, Karl Amadeus Hartmann, Busoni, Hindemith and many others, among the more recent ones
Karl Henning and
Luke Ottevanger.
Quote from: Luke on June 06, 2024, 08:47:19 AMHowever, earlier posts in this thread conflated 'obsession with classical music' with 'obsession with collecting/comparing recordings'
I'm also amused by the idea that the professional musicians here are "obsessed." I should go to the physicsforum and ask if they have an unhealthy obsession with physics! :blank: The very question brands professionals with the same stamp as dilettantes.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2024, 11:28:33 PMBut in that case you won't know how unutterably fantastic they are until you have heard Quartetto Energie Nove play them (partly a question of edition, reinstated passages etc.)
They are pretty darn remarkable performances!!
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2024, 06:52:20 AMI'm also amused by the idea that the professional musicians here are "obsessed." I should go to the physicsforum and ask if they have an unhealthy obsession with physics! :blank: The very question brands professionals with the same stamp as dilettantes.
Well, yes, I forgot to specify in the OP that the question is not addressed to professional musicians; otoh, I should have thought it was obvious. I don't have any data but I suspect professional musicians are less likely to spend an inordinate amount of time listening to recorded music, they are too busy playing or writing it. ;D
Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2024, 11:28:33 PMBut in that case you won't know how unutterably fantastic they are until you have heard Quartetto Energie Nove play them (partly a question of edition, reinstated passages etc.)
Luke and I aren't saying that we're unhappy to be beneficiaries of others' obsession.
Quote from: Florestan on June 07, 2024, 07:10:30 AMWell, yes, I forgot to specify in the OP that the question is not addressed to professional musicians; otoh, I should have thought it was obvious. I don't have any data but I suspect professional musicians are less likely to spend an inordinate amount of time listening to recorded music, they are too busy playing or writing it. ;D
That is amusing. That is like saying that authors don't read books written by other people because they're too busy writing their own! ;D ;D
Quote from: DavidW on June 07, 2024, 07:22:51 AMThat is amusing. That is like saying that authors don't read books written by other people because they're too busy writing their own! ;D ;D
You might have missed the qualifier "an inordinate amount of time". If a professional musician listened to music all day long they wouldn't have any time left for doing their job, which is playing and writing music. If a professional writer read books all day long, he wouldn't have time for writing his own. This doesn't mean that the former doesn't listen to music, or that the latter doesn't read books, at all. Nothing amusing about it, just plain common-sense. ;D
@DavidW This is a good point and I think that actually there could well be some truth in it. Seriously, I have sometimes wondered if my obsession with such a wide range of music - with the depth and the wonder of this tradition that we all love so deeply, with the minutiae of composers' outputs, with minor figures and obscure corners of the repertoire, with questions of aesthetics and styles - wasn't something of a hindrance to me as a composer (I'm not sure I still count as such).
Quote from: Florestan on June 07, 2024, 07:30:26 AMYou might have missed the qualifier "an inordinate amount of time". If a professional musician listened to music all day long they wouldn't have any time left for doing their job, which is playing and writing music. If a professional writer read books all day long, he wouldn't have time for writing his own. This doesn't mean that the former doesn't listen to music, or that the latter doesn't read books, at all. Nothing amusing about it, just plain common-sense. ;D
I think you might be surprised. Having watched interviews with many of my favorite writers it turns out that they dedicate just a few hours a day to writing because it is so mentally exhausting. They will write in the morning or late at night. And then the rest of the time they are pursuing other things, much of which is reading.
That doesn't come as a surprise to me, because even though I'm not a creative mind... but as a teacher writing tests and prepping lectures is much more draining than teaching, office hours, meetings and grading.
Quote from: Luke on June 07, 2024, 07:49:39 AM@DavidW
This is a good point and I think that actually there could well be some truth in it. Seriously, I have sometimes wondered if my obsession with such a wide range of music - with the depth and the wonder of this tradition that we all love so deeply, with the minutiae of composers' outputs, with minor figures and obscure corners of the repertoire, with questions of aesthetics and styles - wasn't something of a hindrance to me as a composer (I'm not sure I still count as such).
For what it's worth when discussed music with Richard Barrett I always got the impression that he's pretty interested in these things too. Neil Luck too. And clearly Michael Finnissy.
Quote from: Florestan on June 07, 2024, 07:30:26 AMYou might have missed the qualifier "an inordinate amount of time". If a professional musician listened to music all day long they wouldn't have any time left for doing their job, which is playing and writing music. If a professional writer read books all day long, he wouldn't have time for writing his own. This doesn't mean that the former doesn't listen to music, or that the latter doesn't read books, at all. Nothing amusing about it, just plain common-sense. ;D
I have music in my head nearly every waking minute. Sometimes snatches of some favorite work will manifest themselves even while composing or performing.
Of course, this isn't
listening per se, more like an intrusion of memory. It might simply be indicative of an inability to concentrate, perhaps due to age.
But whatever it is, I'm admittedly less than opposed to it. ;D
Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 07, 2024, 06:56:53 AMThey are pretty darn remarkable performances!!
Yes, I played them again after making that post. It's music which means a lot to me. I remember clearly when I heard the second quartet for the first time, it was on the radio, Talich Quartet I think, and I said to myself that I had no idea that music could be like that. It was a transformative experience.
Quote from: Mandryka on June 07, 2024, 08:14:12 AMFor what it's worth when I've discussed music with Richard Barrett I got the impression that he's pretty interested in these things too. Neil Luck too. And clearly Michael Finnissy.
True, true. But composers like Finnissy -
especially Finnissy - have a genius for absorbing and digesting their disparate influences and turning them into something personal and powerful. The same ability is not in me!
Quote from: Mandryka on June 07, 2024, 08:19:54 AMYes, I played them again after making that post. It's music which means a lot to me. I remember clearly when I heard the second quartet for the first time, it was on the radio, Talich Quartet I think, and I said to myself that I had no idea that music could be like that. It was a transformative experience.
Was the Smetana Quartet for me. They got this music so profoundly, it seems to me (and the previous edition was made by one of their number, fwiw)
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2024, 12:21:13 AMYes the same for me!
That gives me great sadness to hear, Tinnitus is a dreadful affliction, and no cure is available.
Thank you, sir.
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2024, 12:21:13 AMTinnitus is a dreadful affliction, and no cure is available.
Quote from: foxandpeng on June 07, 2024, 09:40:57 AMThank you, sir.
Yes, my condolences! Tinnitus (rhymes with Latin's
Spiritus ) has hit me occasionally, usually because of an allergic reaction, or congestion in the eustachian tubes, and was cured by pseudoephedrine allergy pills.
Quote from: Cato on June 07, 2024, 12:09:59 PMTinnitus (rhymes with Latin's Spiritus )
So, instead of
Veni, creator spiritus!, it's case of
Vade, destructor tinnitus!. ;D
Quote from: Harry on June 07, 2024, 12:21:13 AMYes the same for me!
I too experience varying degrees of tinnitus. Usually I can ignore it, but when fatigued, it becomes nearly unbearable. Maintaining a regular sleep pattern is helpful to prevent such a situation.
Quote from: Cato on June 07, 2024, 12:09:59 PM(rhymes with Latin's Spiritus )
Really; never heard it pronounced that way. But the yokels around me have never been good examples of the King's English. I think if I said Tinnitus with the stress on the first syllable around here, my house would be surrounded by torches and pitchforks.
Imagine a terrifying version of
American Gothic.VS
(https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/a2858147-1e14-44cf-99c7-08768ccde8c5/d8wvsg5-2f00637c-d753-4411-a69c-dec517033e6c.gif?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2EyODU4MTQ3LTFlMTQtNDRjZi05OWM3LTA4NzY4Y2NkZThjNVwvZDh3dnNnNS0yZjAwNjM3Yy1kNzUzLTQ0MTEtYTY5Yy1kZWM1MTcwMzNlNmMuZ2lmIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.oB26qD93Gu7WPK-fefcFWuW9cq-DNnwa1FYAevLZBS0)
Quote from: Florestan on June 07, 2024, 12:24:30 PMSo, instead of Veni, creator spiritus!, it's case of Vade, destructor tinnitus!. ;D
Optime! 8)
Quote from: VonStupp on June 07, 2024, 02:30:45 PMReally; never heard it pronounced that way. But the yokels around me have never been good examples of the King's English. I think if I said Tinnitus with the stress on the first syllable around here, my house would be surrounded by torches and pitchforks.
Imagine a terrifying version of American Gothic.
VS
Well,
that is disturbing! ;)
Anyway, to make
tinnitus parallel with e.g.
Arthritis ignores all sorts of things! Some dictionaries, however, have surrendered to the mispronunciation. My friend of well over 50 years, who is a doctor and who also majored in Classics, says not one of his professors at the University of Cincinnati Medical School ever used "tin-nite-tis" for "tinnitus."
I should mention that "tintinnabulate" and "tintinnabulation" (the latter used by
Edgar Allan Poe in his poem
The Bells come from the same Latin root as "tinnitus."
Concerning our topic and speaking of my friend, he has a specific Classical Music obsession which began in high school, when he heard
Boris Godunov for the first time.
Not just this opera, but all things
Mussorgsky became an obsession for him.
Boris Godunov led him onward to
Rimsky-Korsakov's operas: I introduced him to
The Flaming Angel of
Prokofiev, which back then was available only via a 1950's French version on some badly pressed records.
I've endured significant tinnitus in my left ear for over a decade, because of the thoughtless act of a construction contractor at Apple headquarters.
While at work, l noticed a young man carrying an armload of steel cubicle framing over to an area where he and his colleagues were staging materials to be used in the future.
He suddenly stopped about fifteen or twenty feet from my location, and dropped his armload of metal onto the concrete floor.
My left ear immediately started ringing, and the ringing has never changed or faded since that moment.
That was in 2013...
Quote from: LKB on June 08, 2024, 01:23:25 AMI've endured significant tinnitus in my left ear for over a decade, because of the thoughtless act of a construction contractor at Apple headquarters.
While at work, l noticed a young man carrying an armload of steel cubicle framing over to an area where he and his colleagues were staging materials to be used in the future.
He suddenly stopped about fifteen or twenty feet from my location, and dropped his armload of metal onto the concrete floor.
My left ear immediately started ringing, and the ringing has never changed or faded since that moment.
That was in 2013...
I'm sorry to hear this and the experience of others who also live with this frustrating and sometimes unbearable condition.
Keep on, my friends!
Quote from: LKB on June 08, 2024, 01:23:25 AMI've endured significant tinnitus in my left ear for over a decade, because of the thoughtless act of a construction contractor at Apple headquarters.
While at work, l noticed a young man carrying an armload of steel cubicle framing over to an area where he and his colleagues were staging materials to be used in the future.
He suddenly stopped about fifteen or twenty feet from my location, and dropped his armload of metal onto the concrete floor.
My left ear immediately started ringing, and the ringing has never changed or faded since that moment.
That was in 2013...
Horrific. What a terrible thing.
In response to the question posed in the title of this thread, I'll be brief...
Yes.
;D
Quote from: LKB on June 08, 2024, 01:23:25 AMI've endured significant tinnitus in my left ear for over a decade, because of the thoughtless act of a construction contractor at Apple headquarters.
While at work, l noticed a young man carrying an armload of steel cubicle framing over to an area where he and his colleagues were staging materials to be used in the future.
He suddenly stopped about fifteen or twenty feet from my location, and dropped his armload of metal onto the concrete floor.
My left ear immediately started ringing, and the ringing has never changed or faded since that moment.
That was in 2013...
I will check with a friend, who is a doctor and has some alternative treatments: perhaps you will not have tried one of his remedies.
Quote from: LKB on June 08, 2024, 01:23:25 AMI've endured significant tinnitus in my left ear for over a decade, because of the thoughtless act of a construction contractor at Apple headquarters.
While at work, l noticed a young man carrying an armload of steel cubicle framing over to an area where he and his colleagues were staging materials to be used in the future.
He suddenly stopped about fifteen or twenty feet from my location, and dropped his armload of metal onto the concrete floor.
My left ear immediately started ringing, and the ringing has never changed or faded since that moment.
That was in 2013...
Ouch!
I think obsessed is perhaps the wrong adjective in my case, but classical music is without question the single most important musical phenomenon in my life. It's curious also to look back on one's own journey with music in general. I've been listening to music seriously since my early teens (I'm now in my early 40s) and it's always fascinating to see what music sticks and what doesn't. I'm really not sure I would be talking about classical music today if it wasn't for some encouraging words from my late grandfather. Even though we didn't share much in common, I do believe he was most important factor in getting the ball rolling. Of course, the internet and loads of research also helped me. But all of this wouldn't have mattered if I didn't have the interest and natural curiosity to pursue this music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2024, 08:00:48 AMI think obsessed is perhaps the wrong adjective in my case, but classical music is without question the single most important musical phenomenon in my life. It's curious also to look back on one's own his with music in general. I've been listening to music seriously since my early teens (I'm now in my early 40s) and it's always fascinating to see what music sticks and what doesn't. I'm really not sure I would be talking about classical music today if it wasn't for some encouraging words from my late grandfather. Even though we didn't share much in common, I do believe he was most important factor in getting the ball rolling. Of course, the internet and loads of research also helped me. But all of this wouldn't have mattered if I didn't have the interest and natural curiosity to pursue this music.
That's nice that you had a classical music connection with your grandfather. Makes for a lifetime of good memories.
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 09, 2024, 08:11:35 AMThat's nice that you had a classical music connection with your grandfather. Makes for a lifetime of good memories.
Unfortunately, Karl, it's really the only thing I can look back on with fondness when it comes to him. Without diving too much into it, he really was someone I didn't enjoy spending time with, but that's all I can say because he's longer amongst us.
Quote from: Mirror Image on June 09, 2024, 07:07:13 PMUnfortunately, Karl, it's really the only thing I can look back on with fondness when it comes to him. Without diving too much into it, he really was someone I didn't enjoy spending time with, but that's all I can say because he's longer amongst us.
While I can understand your feelings, I would also point out there have been plenty of people throughout history who never deserved such consideration, whether living or dead.
An SOB is an SOB, whether above the ground or in it.
I want to get out of the buying obsession habit now and focus on getting more familiar with my classical collection. I don't know it anything like as well as my rock music collection from the days when I built it up slowly and listened to albums repeatedly until I knew them well. I feel I've now got a reasonable selection of 20th century music and a little 19th century to provide a bit of historical background.
Quote from: LKB on June 10, 2024, 01:23:55 AMWhile I can understand your feelings, I would also point out there have been plenty of people throughout history who never deserved such consideration, whether living or dead.
An SOB is an SOB, whether above the ground or in it.
Well, this is true. My grandfather certainly wasn't an SOB that's for sure, but his particular attitude prevented me from wanting to actually get to know him. Anyway, I'll just leave it at that.
I used to purchase CDs a lot around the turn of the century, just because there were so many. Eventually I noticed I only listened to a limited number of 'em (also, it got really hard to locate particular CDs in the mass of identical looking items).
So the material clutter could be described as obsessive. I am, however, not obsessed by music. I like music, usually in the form of listening to one piece a couple of days, or weeks, and then it's yet another piece. It doesn't keep me from doing my things - which is the definition of obsession ("sit in the way").
I have been listening to serious classical music since 1975.
Quote from: nethanpaul86 on June 26, 2024, 08:33:19 PMThis intense focus on classical music can sometimes seem unhealthy, making us question whether we're missing out on a more balanced life. Those who see classical music as a mere diversion might indeed lead richer, more varied lives. While our obsession provides deep fulfillment, it can also narrow our experiences and interactions. It's worth considering if a more moderate approach, where classical music is a significant yet not all-consuming part of life, might offer a healthier, more well-rounded existence.
A considered, thoughtful and logical approach, which will undoubtedly resonate with others here.
But for me... obsession please! >:D
Quote from: Iota on June 05, 2024, 04:12:23 AMFwiw, this doesn't describe me at all.
I care very much about music, classical most of all, and it regularly transports me to temporary state I might describe as a kind of ecstasy. I almost never listen to it while doing something else, it diminishes the experience considerably for me.
When I'm not listening, which is most of the time, I think about it, but not remotely close to most of the time. I am though permanently in a state of gratitude that it exists, and a state of astonishment at the gift that so many have for composing and playing it. That never goes away even when I'm not in the mood for listening.
This is such a simple and cool philosophy. I keep resonating to it.
It's a nightmare to me on the contrary when the enthousiasm for music fades away.
I should move towards your philosophy and away from the nightmare.
Quote from: Henk on June 30, 2024, 12:06:54 PMThis is such a simple and cool philosophy. I keep resonating to it.
It's a nightmare to me on the contrary when the enthousiasm for music fades away.
I should move towards your philosophy and away from the nightmare.
By all means, shun the nightmare.
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 30, 2024, 12:14:01 PMBy all means, shun the nightmare.
Quote from: Karl Henning on June 30, 2024, 12:14:01 PMBy all means, shun the nightmare.
The nightmare also keeps me alert in some way. The enthousiasm doesn't 'just' fade away perceived as just a 'pity' (that would be the real nightmare).
Quote from: Henk on June 05, 2024, 11:07:18 AMI doubt that. It's probably different.
I have often a more or less shallow listening experience and sometimes I have deep, captivating ones.
That a performer is closer to the music, doesn't mean he better grasps it. He's busy performing, he's a medium in order for us to fully appreciate the music, which may happen or happen not. Think of it as a cooperation.
Listening to music is not just 'passive'.
Especially with the score in hand! 😇
Quote from: Henk on June 30, 2024, 12:25:25 PMThe nightmare also keeps me alert in some way. The enthousiasm doesn't 'just' fade away perceived as just a 'pity' (that would be the real nightmare).
I want to discover new music to listen to as long as I live and in preferably all the genres I like. That's my life insurance.
Sometimes I struggle with this. I don't like the thought that the search for music is final and over.
Consider this: If musical production would stop tomorrow, would man will able to cope with it? Could we be happy with all the music that has been produced and recorded?
Quote from: Henk on June 30, 2024, 12:43:49 PMI want to discover new music to listen to as long as I live and in preferably all the genres I like. That's my life insurance.
Sometimes I struggle with this. I don't like the thought that the search for music is final and over.
Consider this: If musical production would stop tomorrow, would man will able to cope with it? Could we be happy with all the music that has been produced and recorded?
True!
This is one reason for wanting our resident composers (e.g.
Karl Henning, Luke Ottevanger, et al.) to continue their creative journeys.
Mathematicians have variously calculated that musical possibilities are infinite or practically infinite....and that is without considering microtonal scales of 19 or 24 or more notes!
In recent weeks I have discovered
Nikolai Obukhov and am very enthused by everything, as well as appalled (again!) by the neglect surrounding his music.
And I am considering - S L O W L Y - my own return to composing, at least in restoring more of the works, which I destroyed over 30 years ago, i.e. works now approaching 60 years of age! New compositions still come to me, sometimes in a flash (i.e. the musical ideas and their future form and development are quite clear) and I wonder, given my status as a septuagenarian, how to use my time the best.
For I am also constantly getting ideas for stories (currently I am writing a large novel about people on the Danubian frontier of Rome c. A.D. 430-460 ), and we know about serving two masters! 😇
Quote from: Cato on June 30, 2024, 12:26:24 PMEspecially with the score in hand! 😇
Especially not when air conducting!! :D
Quote from: Cato on June 30, 2024, 01:10:11 PMTrue!
This is one reason for wanting our resident composers (e.g. Karl Henning, Luke Ottevanger, et al.) to continue their creative journeys.
Mathematicians have variously calculated that musical possibilities are infinite or practically infinite....and that is without considering microtonal scales of 19 or 24 or more notes!
In recent weeks I have discovered Nikolai Obukhov and am very enthused by everything, as well as appalled (again!) by the neglect surrounding his music.
And I am considering - S L O W L Y - my own return to composing, at least in restoring more of the works, which I destroyed over 30 years ago, i.e. works now approaching 60 years of age! New compositions still come to me, sometimes in a flash (i.e. the musical ideas and their future form and development are quite clear) and I wonder, given my status as a septuagenarian, how to use my time the best.
For I am also constantly getting ideas for stories (currently I am writing a large novel about people on the Danubian frontier of Rome c. A.D. 430-460 ), and we know about serving two masters! 😇
Enjoy creating. Do you upload stuff here?
Quote from: Henk on June 30, 2024, 01:33:38 PMEnjoy creating. Do you upload stuff here?
Yes, but it is buried somewhere in the archives.
No time right now, but I can send you something via the Messages later.
Quote from: Cato on June 30, 2024, 02:09:11 PMYes, but it is buried somewhere in the archives.
No time right now, but I can send you something via the Messages later.
Ok. I appreciate.
Quote from: Cato on June 30, 2024, 01:10:11 PMMathematicians have variously calculated that musical possibilities are infinite or practically infinite....and that is without considering microtonal scales of 19 or 24 or more notes!
'The world is never all there is.' (Prozorov)
There is always something to add. Indeed for example more notes or sounds, new possibilities of all kinds.
Quote from: Henk on July 01, 2024, 06:05:49 AM'The world is never all there is.' (Prozorov)
There is always something to add. Indeed for example more notes or sounds, new possibilities of all kinds.
Hello Henk!Check your messages here!
Quote from: Cato on July 01, 2024, 06:22:36 AM
Hello Henk!
Check your messages here!
I've done. I will reply to you.
Quote from: Iota on June 05, 2024, 04:12:23 AMFwiw, this doesn't describe me at all.
I care very much about music, classical most of all, and it regularly transports me to temporary state I might describe as a kind of ecstasy. I almost never listen to it while doing something else, it diminishes the experience considerably for me.
When I'm not listening, which is most of the time, I think about it, but not remotely close to most of the time. I am though permanently in a state of gratitude that it exists, and a state of astonishment at the gift that so many have for composing and playing it. That never goes away even when I'm not in the mood for listening.
Hmm, this is very interesting. It sounds like intense concentration or absorption. Would you say this involves relaxation or forgetfulness of self awareness?
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 01, 2024, 07:44:02 AMHmm, this is very interesting. It sounds like intense concentration or absorption. Would you say this involves relaxation or forgetfulness of self awareness?
You describe it well actually. The less I am thinking/self-aware, the more I hear the music and the greater the impact it has on me. If I can eliminate thought almost completely (difficult for me), it feels like there is no barrier between me and the music at all, and that feels magical. I guess it's really just another version of being in the moment, and at those times the music is the moment.
Quote from: Iota on July 01, 2024, 10:14:49 AMYou describe it well actually. The less I am thinking/self-aware, the more I hear the music and the greater the impact it has on me. If I can eliminate thought almost completely (difficult for me), it feels like there is no barrier between me and the music at all, and that feels magical. I guess it's really just another version of being in the moment, and at those times the music is the moment.
I get there sometimes, need to avoid distractions and focus single mindedly on music I really like.
Quote from: steve ridgway on July 01, 2024, 10:35:15 AMI get there sometimes, need to avoid distractions and focus single mindedly on music I really like.
Yes exactly. Though even if it's music I don't like particularly, I still hear it more clearly which can lead to finding virtues I'd otherwise missed.
Quote from: Iota on July 01, 2024, 10:14:49 AMYou describe it well actually. The less I am thinking/self-aware, the more I hear the music and the greater the impact it has on me. If I can eliminate thought almost completely (difficult for me), it feels like there is no barrier between me and the music at all, and that feels magical. I guess it's really just another version of being in the moment, and at those times the music is the moment.
I think animals also listen like that to music as well, as I view on Instagram. Prozorov uses the term 'ontological mood' which is being in which one is substracted from the transcendental world, all things positive in the world, so that one is in a state of 'pure being' with the axioms 'equality, community and freedom' of 'the world as void'. It's a bit philosophical.. but maybe you like it.
Quote from: Iota on July 01, 2024, 10:40:56 AMYes exactly. Though even if it's music I don't like particularly, I still hear it more clearly which can lead to finding virtues I'd otherwise missed.
Yes, that's also what I try to do.
Quote from: Henk on July 01, 2024, 10:42:21 AMI think animals also listen like that to music as well, as I view on Instagram. Prozorov uses the term 'ontological mood' which is being in which one is substracted from the transcendental world, all things positive in the world, so that one is in a state of 'pure being' with the axioms 'equality, community and freedom' of 'the world as void'. It's a bit philosophical.. but maybe you like it.
I like it very much. But much as I would love to achieve a state of 'pure being' I don't think I ever have, perhaps very occasionally for a few seconds. I am able to abstract myself sometimes when listening to music, or just to the world, but never to the level of truly enlightened people. I aspire to it but spend most of the time surrounded by distractions and a hyperactive mind alas.
Quote from: Iota on July 01, 2024, 10:40:56 AMYes exactly. Though even if it's music I don't like particularly, I still hear it more clearly which can lead to finding virtues I'd otherwise missed.
Not to get too pretentious about it, but I regard listening to instrumental music to be an informal sort of meditation, although I stuggle to maintain focus. A practical reason is that my current technology involves a computer (streaming service or FLAC files on my hard disk). It makes the temptation to fuss on the computer hard to resist.
Quote from: Spotted Horses on July 01, 2024, 10:54:55 AMNot to get too pretentious about it, but I regard listening to instrumental music to be an informal sort of meditation, although I stuggle to maintain focus. A practical reason is that my current technology involves a computer (streaming service or FLAC files on my hard disk). It makes the temptation to fuss on the computer hard to resist.
'An informal sort of meditation' is an excellent way of putting it. I stream a lot on the computer too, and if I dabble with it while I'm listening I lose the connection with the music completely, so I just don't. If I have to attend to something I turn the music off.
Quote from: Iota on July 01, 2024, 10:54:53 AMI like it very much. But much as I would love to achieve a state of 'pure being' I don't think I ever have, perhaps very occasionally for a few seconds. I am able to abstract myself sometimes when listening to music, or just to the world, but never to the level of truly enlightened people. I aspire to it but spend most of the time surrounded by distractions and a hyperactive mind alas.
Nietzsche calls it 'calm of the soul' (calm in relation to wind). I'm sometimes in that mood, it's very good, refreshing, things go easier after that. You can try to get into it, particularly when you're bored (boredom according to Prozorov is a mode of the 'ontological mood').
Animals are really superior beings compared to us in many aspects. I still have this book to read:
https://www.amazon.nl/Nietzsche-Were-Narwhal-Intelligence-Stupidity/dp/0316388068/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=ENMFL10CCSE2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4lEF3fG0q89iSOmk_fpqzg6AXphbTnJX7rS3ancri3tZu2Fz3xb2-DlylG9lxsWFaCduEcQ-umKX2ibgGog5rJbX5reEozi9kFqlLwyhgdpRn1hfF8hTzOX65PJItJ1ClJ468ZQJRvmJBzRhRr4vI3EhbaDzx5oXbP3-CiGYdqUnMZKbSe9VWPEfWj5LAwSHbS6zqsuzfBI-OtxqyyuEpVlUpJN2--984c4yKHBelhoeWyu6ctiTOJYCPihC2luTV33uiAXXI8SfTGXvnINZJJcLxi58i7FS0ZmUm2FIkCs.FbHD64CEyePGJ5KDwieM4JUi5oBVkBMQe1Qc4RwRTIw&dib_tag=se&keywords=If+nietzsche+were&qid=1719860409&sprefix=if+nietzsche+were%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.nl/Nietzsche-Were-Narwhal-Intelligence-Stupidity/dp/0316388068/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=ENMFL10CCSE2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4lEF3fG0q89iSOmk_fpqzg6AXphbTnJX7rS3ancri3tZu2Fz3xb2-DlylG9lxsWFaCduEcQ-umKX2ibgGog5rJbX5reEozi9kFqlLwyhgdpRn1hfF8hTzOX65PJItJ1ClJ468ZQJRvmJBzRhRr4vI3EhbaDzx5oXbP3-CiGYdqUnMZKbSe9VWPEfWj5LAwSHbS6zqsuzfBI-OtxqyyuEpVlUpJN2--984c4yKHBelhoeWyu6ctiTOJYCPihC2luTV33uiAXXI8SfTGXvnINZJJcLxi58i7FS0ZmUm2FIkCs.FbHD64CEyePGJ5KDwieM4JUi5oBVkBMQe1Qc4RwRTIw&dib_tag=se&keywords=If+nietzsche+were&qid=1719860409&sprefix=if+nietzsche+were%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1)
Quote from: Henk on July 01, 2024, 11:07:15 AMNietzsche calls it 'calm of the soul' (calm in relation to wind). I'm sometimes in that mood, it's very good, refreshing, things go easier after that. You can try to get into it, particularly when you're bored (boredom according to Prozorov is a mode of the 'ontological mood').
Animals are really superior beings compared to us in many aspects. I still have this book to read:
https://www.amazon.nl/Nietzsche-Were-Narwhal-Intelligence-Stupidity/dp/0316388068/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=ENMFL10CCSE2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4lEF3fG0q89iSOmk_fpqzg6AXphbTnJX7rS3ancri3tZu2Fz3xb2-DlylG9lxsWFaCduEcQ-umKX2ibgGog5rJbX5reEozi9kFqlLwyhgdpRn1hfF8hTzOX65PJItJ1ClJ468ZQJRvmJBzRhRr4vI3EhbaDzx5oXbP3-CiGYdqUnMZKbSe9VWPEfWj5LAwSHbS6zqsuzfBI-OtxqyyuEpVlUpJN2--984c4yKHBelhoeWyu6ctiTOJYCPihC2luTV33uiAXXI8SfTGXvnINZJJcLxi58i7FS0ZmUm2FIkCs.FbHD64CEyePGJ5KDwieM4JUi5oBVkBMQe1Qc4RwRTIw&dib_tag=se&keywords=If+nietzsche+were&qid=1719860409&sprefix=if+nietzsche+were%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.nl/Nietzsche-Were-Narwhal-Intelligence-Stupidity/dp/0316388068/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_nl_NL=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=ENMFL10CCSE2&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.4lEF3fG0q89iSOmk_fpqzg6AXphbTnJX7rS3ancri3tZu2Fz3xb2-DlylG9lxsWFaCduEcQ-umKX2ibgGog5rJbX5reEozi9kFqlLwyhgdpRn1hfF8hTzOX65PJItJ1ClJ468ZQJRvmJBzRhRr4vI3EhbaDzx5oXbP3-CiGYdqUnMZKbSe9VWPEfWj5LAwSHbS6zqsuzfBI-OtxqyyuEpVlUpJN2--984c4yKHBelhoeWyu6ctiTOJYCPihC2luTV33uiAXXI8SfTGXvnINZJJcLxi58i7FS0ZmUm2FIkCs.FbHD64CEyePGJ5KDwieM4JUi5oBVkBMQe1Qc4RwRTIw&dib_tag=se&keywords=If+nietzsche+were&qid=1719860409&sprefix=if+nietzsche+were%2Caps%2C124&sr=8-1)
Yes I agree, we have a lot to learn from animals.
Quote from: Iota on July 01, 2024, 10:59:42 AM'An informal sort of meditation' is an excellent way of putting it. I stream a lot on the computer too, and if I dabble with it while I'm listening I lose the connection with the music completely, so I just don't. If I have to attend to something I turn the music off.
I must unlearn to dabble with it.
This is part of a huge problem of society these times. Enslavement to controls and media. Dexterity and hand-eye coordination is rewarded by evolution and social connection as well. We need to focus and learn to relax and rest instead of ADHD.