It's time for me to try some Nielsen symphonies. Who do you recommend?
Also, what other pieces does he have that you think would be good for somebody new to his music?
Thanks in advance. :)
I love all the symphonies, and you could just go in order, if you want to ease into them, but if I were having only one it would be No. 5.
Other works:
Violin Concerto
Clarinet Concerto
Helios Overture
Wind Quintet
Playlist here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaiVOCZFBU4&list=PLRRFnribyIbL4aMTeMFKi0E9mHoLJA5qP
Quote from: Daverz on July 02, 2024, 07:45:12 PMI love all the symphonies, and you could just go in order, if you want to ease into them, but if I were having only one it would be No. 5.
Other works:
Violin Concerto
Clarinet Concerto
Helios Overture
Wind Quintet
Ta muchly! And you like Oramo? I am usually confident in trying Bis recordings blind.
Quote from: Daverz on July 02, 2024, 07:45:12 PMOther works:
Violin Concerto
Clarinet Concerto
Helios Overture
Wind Quintet
Found a Blomstedt release (Danish Radio Symphony) with all those pieces! Convenient.
Quote from: NumberSix on July 02, 2024, 07:54:10 PMFound a Blomstedt release (Danish Radio Symphony) with all those pieces! Convenient.
Yes, love that recording of the Violin Concerto with Arve Tellefsen.
The colourful Aladdin Suite is a perfect gateway to his style and this recording is particularly exceptional, not only in terms of sound quality and commited performances, but also because it gathers together several of his orchestral works that are not symphonies, i.e. tone poems and overtures.
(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/8.557164.jpg)
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 02, 2024, 07:58:16 PMThe colourful Aladdin Suite is a perfect gateway to his style and this recording is particularly exceptional, not only in terms of sound quality and commited performances, but also because it gathers together several of his orchestral works that are not symphonies, i.e. tone poems and overtures.
Looks good! Yay for streaming subscriptions, is all I am saying.
I like the recordings of Nielsen's cycle of symphonies conducted by Ole Schmidt, the 4th and 5th the most. Also, you can scroll through the Nielsen thread here on the forum.
For starters, I'd recommend Symphonies Nos. 3 & 4 and the Violin Concerto. You can branch out from there.
The Aladdin Suite and Helios Overture are also recommended. If you like opera, he wrote two and they're both excellent: Saul & David and Maskarade.
But steer clear of Springtime in Funen... ::) ;D
Quote from: NumberSix on July 02, 2024, 07:28:32 PMIt's time for me to try some Nielsen symphonies. Who do you recommend?
Also, what other pieces does he have that you think would be good for somebody new to his music?
Thanks in advance. :)
Symphony #5 is what sold me on Nielsen. My favorites are Schonwandt, Blomstedt, and Oramo.
The other great entry point IMO is the clarinet concerto. Check out this recording that also includes the great Aho clarinet concerto:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51LLFeko7wL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
Quote from: ritter on July 03, 2024, 02:29:55 AMBut steer clear of Springtime in Funen... ::) ;D
Haha! Why?
Quote from: DavidW on July 03, 2024, 07:05:16 AMSymphony #5 is what sold me on Nielsen. My favorites are Schonwandt, Blomstedt, and Oramo.
The other great entry point IMO is the clarinet concerto. Check out this recording that also includes the great Aho clarinet concerto:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51LLFeko7wL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)
My clarinet concerto knowledge in general is woefully inadequate, particularly from the 20th century and newer. Sounds like a good one to grab.
Quote from: NumberSix on July 03, 2024, 08:01:49 AMMy clarinet concerto knowledge in general is woefully inadequate, particularly from the 20th century and newer. Sounds like a good one to grab.
I'm a clarinetist, so the Concerto was my entrée to Nielsen!
Quote from: NumberSix on July 03, 2024, 08:00:34 AMHaha! Why?
Steer clear of
Springtime on Funen, that is. Actually, as an avid Nielsenian myself, I would tend to disagree. It's probably Nielsen's most "populist" work, a hymn of praise to the island of his birth, and is full of lovely tunes, although perhaps occasionally falling into tweeness (the children's choruses and solos are not to everyone's taste). The song
Den milde Dag invariably brings a tear to my eye.
And as for the Clarinet Concerto - Dr Henning and I share a great love of this piece (it's on my Desert Island list), but it's harsh, grim, uncompromising... To my mind, the only less approachable Nielsen piece is
Commotio, the great organ fantasia that became his swansong. Of course, I don't know your tastes, and you may indeed be someone that likes to dive in at the "difficult" end, but for a gentler concerto that doesn't quite grab you by the throat and give you a good shaking, the one for flute is lovely - and also contains a great joke.
- although you did say Nielsen
symphonies - keeping a GMG thread on topic - herding cats...
4th and 5th symphony, maybe the 3rd as well. Or even the 1st or second.
The "problem" with the concerti is that the more interesting woodwind ones are a bit thorny and the violin concerto is not as characteristic and interesting. Admittedly, I don't remember enough of the tone poems or Aladdin. The symphonies are all characteristic and all but the 6th fairly accessible, I think.
If you like woodwinds also the quintet; the next chamber music would probably be the 2nd violin sonata but that's also a bit tough.
Quote from: DaveF on July 03, 2024, 12:07:29 PMSteer clear of Springtime on Funen, that is. Actually, as an avid Nielsenian myself, I would tend to disagree. It's probably Nielsen's most "populist" work, a hymn of praise to the island of his birth, and is full of lovely tunes, although perhaps occasionally falling into tweeness (the children's choruses and solos are not to everyone's taste). The song Den milde Dag invariably brings a tear to my eye.
And as for the Clarinet Concerto - Dr Henning and I share a great love of this piece (it's on my Desert Island list), but it's harsh, grim, uncompromising... To my mind, the only less approachable Nielsen piece is Commotio, the great organ fantasia that became his swansong. Of course, I don't know your tastes, and you may indeed be someone that likes to dive in at the "difficult" end, but for a gentler concerto that doesn't quite grab you by the throat and give you a good shaking, the one for flute is lovely - and also contains a great joke.
- although you did say Nielsen symphonies - keeping a GMG thread on topic - herding cats...
I started my request with symphonies, but I also mentioned that I would like recommendations for other essential pieces. So your excellent comment is perfectly on topic. ;)
I recommend the 4th Symphony, Op. 29 for Nielsen newbies.
As for other works, Wind Quintet, Op. 43 is great chamber music.
If those works don't work for you it is possible Nielsen just isn't your cup of tea. If those works get you excited, continue and enjoy your Nielsen exploration!
First, 4 with its thrilling timpani battle - Martinon/CSO
Then, 3 and 5 with the Royal Danish - Bernstein/Sony
The only steering clear that I would counsel, sadly, is of the symphony cycle by the Janáček Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Theodore Kuchar. In many ways it's a good one, offering clear, unfussy and sometimes very good performances - and it has my all-time favourite timpani roll with birch-twigs (yes, really) in the slow movement of no.2. And it's cheap, and has attracted some enthusiastic comments on this forum. But... it's plagued by wrong notes which, given that the performances are not, AFAIK, live, is difficult to understand. There's even a wrong one in the solo, unaccompanied bassoon theme in the finale of no.6 - that's the sort of thing that sends me scurrying to the New Nielsen edition scores at www.kb.dk to check that people haven't been playing it wrong for years.
For the record, favourite cycles of mine: Danish National Symphony Orchestra / Michael Schønwandt, now on Naxos, and the LSO / Colin Davis.
Certainly no excuse for wrong notes on a studio recording. I suppose you could argue budget, but it certainly doesn't make you look good.
Quote from: DaveF on July 04, 2024, 10:44:03 AMThe only steering clear that I would counsel, sadly, is of the symphony cycle by the Janáček Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Theodore Kuchar.
A recording so dull that it set me back years into getting into Nielsen!
Listening to this No. 4 by Blomstedt now. The first movement just completed. It's beautiful - and very accessible.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7CvvNDWZ/IMG-1256.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7CvvNDWZ)
Quote from: NumberSix on July 04, 2024, 11:35:05 AMListening to this No. 4 by Blomstedt now. The first movement just completed. It's beautiful - and very accessible.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7CvvNDWZ/IMG-1256.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7CvvNDWZ)
Wow, that fourth movement, where it gets all quiet and then explodes into the drums. And then that last two minutes of Romantic beauty.
Sigh. I love this.
Excellent, another member of the fan club!
(I think I also started with 4, then worked my way backwards to the more traditional romantic and forward to 6, which I still don't "get.")
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2024, 12:37:49 PMExcellent, another member of the fan club!
(I think I also started with 4, then worked my way backwards to the more traditional romantic and forward to 6, which I still don't "get.")
6 written in 1924 is a little difficult. How many other symphonies end with no more than a sustained low Bb on two bassoons. My personal theory is that the fragmentary 2nd movement is Nielsen's parody of the tendencies of the 2nd Viennese School to short aphoristic statements. Wikipedia: In the notes Nielsen wrote for the symphony's premiere, he said that wind and percussion in the movement "quarrel, each sticking to his own tastes and inclinations"; Nielsen went on to liken this to the musical world of the time.
Quote from: Brian on July 04, 2024, 12:37:49 PMExcellent, another member of the fan club!
(I think I also started with 4, then worked my way backward to the more traditional romantic and forward to 6, which I still don't "get.")
That is funny because I have more problems with 3-4 than the rest. I like the exuberance of 1-2 and love the masterful works of 5-6.
I think if you can find your way into the 5th symphony, the rest should follow. The 5th is still one of my favorite works from Nielsen. Also
@Brian doesn't get the 6th (aka
Sinfonia semplice), but I understood it the first-time I heard it. It is truly a quirky work, but I think it points in a direction Nielsen was heading before he passed away. The wind concerti are also definitely worth your time. I would also say that
Saga-Drøm is worth getting to know. Of the chamber works, the 2nd
Violin Sonata and the
Wind Quintet are most definitely worth your acquaintance.
Weird: I thought I posted this, but I suppose not.
A minor work, yes, but superb and ingratiating:
My problem with Symphony No. 6 is that it's always described as problematical, but as simply a listener I've never understood what the problem was. See also Mahler's Symphony No. 7.
Quote from: Daverz on July 11, 2024, 12:53:50 PMMy problem with Symphony No. 6 is that it's always described as problematical, but as simply a listener I've never understood what the problem was.
I concur, and I'd go beyond: is Nielsen a "problematical" composer at all? Of course, his music is or seems more complex on the score, but on the ear is quite easygoing overall. It puzzles me when somebody says he or she doesn't get his music.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 11, 2024, 03:07:39 PMIt puzzles me when somebody says he or she doesn't get his music.
I feel the same way when someone says that don't get Schoenberg. ;) But in all seriousness, Nielsen isn't as accessible as you want to believe he is and this notion is something that has crossed my own mind several times. Don't get me wrong, I love Nielsen's music, but his music is anything but 'easy'. It requires a subtle shift in listening, because the way he constructs his music and what the music projects onto the listener is unique and left-of-center. Not a composer that one gets right away or, at least, understands immediately, but as with anything, there are exceptions of course.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2024, 07:47:02 AMI feel the same way when someone says that don't get Schoenberg. ;) But in all seriousness, Nielsen isn't as accessible as you want to believe he is and this notion is something that has crossed my own mind several times. Don't get me wrong, I love Nielsen's music, but his music is anything but 'easy'. It requires a subtle shift in listening, because the way he constructs his music and what the music projects onto the listener is unique and left-of-center. Not a composer that one gets right away or, at least, understands immediately, but as with anything, there are exceptions of course.
I can be biased because Nielsen is one of my all-time favorite composers, but when compared to, say, the example you gave, Schoenberg, there's a huge difference in approach on part of a more general public. It also depends on which composers you have been exposed to before. Of course, Nielsen's music is much more than primarily tonal and tuneful, and this is not a generalisation, but those elements can catch the attention and hook a wider group of listeners.
In my personal experience, Nielsen's music has a very attractive element in which he creates conflict or tension and then resolves it in a very satisfying way that makes sense and lifts the spirits.
There is often a quirky humor in his music which I find endearing. Water long under the bridge now, but I took a while to warm to the symphonies. But my first exposure to them was at a time when my ears were after something very different.
Even though Nielsen has a unique voice, the use of progressive tonality is not unique to him. There is a line that extends from Mahler through Simpson. If you can listen to and enjoy Mahler, Brian, or Simpson, Nielsen shouldn't be a challenge. For those whose experience is rooted in either neoromanticism or atonal music, I suppose I could see you finding Nielsen's music alien.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on July 12, 2024, 10:31:22 AMI can be biased because Nielsen is one of my all-time favorite composers, but when compared to, say, the example you gave, Schoenberg, there's a huge difference in approach on part of a more general public. It also depends on which composers you have been exposed to before. Of course, Nielsen's music is much more than primarily tonal and tuneful, and this is not a generalisation, but those elements can catch the attention and hook a wider group of listeners.
In my personal experience, Nielsen's music has a very attractive element in which he creates conflict or tension and then resolves it in a very satisfying way that makes sense and lifts the spirits.
You see my problem really lies with the general public, because they're the reason
why I can't go hear Webern's
Symphony, Op. 21, but I don't really see Nielsen on any programs either. It seems that countries like Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Czech Republic et. al. haven't had much exposure to Nordic music. I remember when Simon Rattle brought Sibelius to the Berliners, which I don't believe this orchestra has performed his music with regularity since Karajan's days (I could have my history wrong on this of course). In the US, I can't hear Ives or David Diamond with any regularity, so there's that, too. I guess this is my roundabout way of saying that Nielsen's music has fared better on record than in the concert hall, but this could be said of so many other composers.
Quote from: Mirror Image on July 12, 2024, 07:48:09 PMYou see my problem really lies with the general public, because they're the reason why I can't go hear Webern's Symphony, Op. 21, but I don't really see Nielsen on any programs either. It seems that countries like Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Czech Republic et. al. haven't had much exposure to Nordic music. I remember when Simon Rattle brought Sibelius to the Berliners, which I don't believe this orchestra has performed his music with regularity since Karajan's days (I could have my history wrong on this of course). In the US, I can't hear Ives or David Diamond with any regularity, so there's that, too. I guess this is my roundabout way of saying that Nielsen's music has fared better on record than in the concert hall, but this could be said of so many other composers.
Interesting take. Maybe it wasn't always thus? I first heard Nielsen's 5th live with the Detroit Symphony under Sixten Ehrling (okay, maybe this performance was an outlier, given Ehrling's championship of 20th century music). Since then, though, I've seen Nielsen's symphonies programmed many times, and heard a very nice 4th with the DSO about 15 years ago (under a guest conductor, I believe, whose name I've forgotten - I don't think it was Neeme).
Schoenberg (nor any of the 2nd Viennese school) is unlikely to become popular with concertgoers anytime soon (regrettably IMO), but I do believe Nielsen is now fairly standard fare. I could be wrong, though.
Quote from: krummholz on July 14, 2024, 10:42:54 AMInteresting take. Maybe it wasn't always thus? I first heard Nielsen's 5th live with the Detroit Symphony under Sixten Ehrling (okay, maybe this performance was an outlier, given Ehrling's championship of 20th century music). Since then, though, I've seen Nielsen's symphonies programmed many times, and heard a very nice 4th with the DSO about 15 years ago (under a guest conductor, I believe, whose name I've forgotten - I don't think it was Neeme).
Schoenberg (nor any of the 2nd Viennese school) is unlikely to become popular with concertgoers anytime soon (regrettably IMO), but I do believe Nielsen is now fairly standard fare. I could be wrong, though.
Sorry for really late reply --- yes, I think Nielsen is performed a good bit nowadays, but mostly in northern European countries. As I wrote earlier, I don't think you'll find Nielsen on a Berliner or Wiener Philharmoniker program any time soon. The US
might program Nielsen more often, but I'm not so sure.
Yeah, you can forget about hearing the Second Viennese School in concert here in the US. A shame, but as you rightly pointed out, they're never going to catch on because there's a lot of people who just are turned off by atonal music, but the reality is this kind of music wasn't all they wrote, but these people will never know because the very sight of the name Schoenberg seems to have them running for the hills. :)
Quote from: Daverz on July 11, 2024, 12:53:50 PMMy problem with Symphony No. 6 is that it's always described as problematical, but as simply a listener I've never understood what the problem was.
Those who call the Symphony "problematical" simply aren't as open-minded as you are. ;)
Quote from: krummholz on July 14, 2024, 10:42:54 AMSchoenberg (nor any of the 2nd Viennese school) is unlikely to become popular with concertgoers anytime soon (regrettably IMO), but I do believe Nielsen is now fairly standard fare. I could be wrong, though.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 18, 2024, 10:31:18 AMYeah, you can forget about hearing the Second Viennese School in concert here in the US. A shame, but as you rightly pointed out, they're never going to catch on because there's a lot of people who just are turned off by atonal music, but the reality is this kind of music wasn't all they wrote, but these people will never know because the very sight of the name Schoenberg seems to have them running for the hills. :)
There is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 18, 2024, 11:19:10 PMThere is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.
In the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".
Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 18, 2024, 11:19:10 PMThere is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.
Nearly everything in life can be considered an acquired taste, and this is true for music as well. Some genres may appeal to us early on, while others might grow on us over time, or perhaps not at all. The challenge with atonal music is that it's often harder to develop a taste for it.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 18, 2024, 11:19:10 PMThere is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste. At least atonal music is being recorded and released for people to enjoy at home etc.
But as someone who does listen at home, this music doesn't stand a chance of surviving
if it is willfully ignored by the concert-going public. Also, your point about something being an acquired taste can certainly leveled at all kinds of music not just works from the Second Viennese School.
Quote from: krummholz on September 19, 2024, 04:19:13 AMIn the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".
Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.
Exposure is key to everything, especially in classical music. If a radio station is willfully undermining the achievements of Schoenberg or Webern, then not only are they closing a book to a chapter in the history of classical music, but they are depriving their listeners the ability to make up their own minds about their music.
Personally, I would've given them a nice tongue-lashing for the sheer audacity to argue with someone about a listening request. I mean they're either in the business to promote classical music of they're not. Thank goodness I never had to put up with the stuffed shirts that run classical radio stations!
Quote from: prémont on September 19, 2024, 05:01:17 AMNearly everything in life can be considered an acquired taste, and this is true for music as well. Some genres may appeal to us early on, while others might grow on us over time, or perhaps not at all. The challenge with atonal music is that it's often harder to develop a taste for it.
And also with atonal music just like it's tonal counterpart, there are going to pieces that appeal to you and others that don't. A superb introduction for anyone into this world is Berg's
Violin Concerto for example. In fact, it was my gateway into getting into atonal music.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2024, 07:52:01 AMBut as someone who does listen at home, this music doesn't stand a chance of surviving if it is willfully ignored by the concert-going public.
What do you mean
survive? Are you suggesting 100 years from now nobody knows this music ever existed?
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 19, 2024, 07:52:01 AMAlso, your point about something being an acquired taste can certainly leveled at all kinds of music not just works from the Second Viennese School.
Of course! A lot of the music I listen to is considered acquired taste. That's just how it is when you develop your taste beyond the mainstream stuff.
Quote from: krummholz on September 19, 2024, 04:19:13 AMIn the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".
Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.
There's nothing surprising about the masses disliking atonal music, but people playing music on radio should have more open mind/understanding. These people are supposed to be music educators. Just saying...
Quote from: 71 dB on September 18, 2024, 11:00:07 PMThose who call the Symphony "problematical" simply aren't as open-minded as you are. ;)
I hope my brain doesn't fall out. :o
Quote from: 71 dB on September 18, 2024, 11:19:10 PMThere is a reason why atonal music is so marginal: It is an acquired taste.
Emphasis mine. For some, by no means for all. There are many people who loved an atonal piece on first listen.
Quote from: krummholz on September 19, 2024, 04:19:13 AMIn the opinion of some, *anything* by the Second Viennese School composers is "an acquired taste" that mainstream listeners avoid like the plague. Many years ago when the Detroit FM station WQRS was still a classical music station, I requested Schoenberg's Chamber Symphony No. 1 during a Music By Request program and got an earful from the "DJ" about how he would never program anything by Schoenberg OR Berg OR Webern and that everyone hated their music for good reason... after which he reluctantly acceded to my request, but only "to show why Schoenberg is so unpopular".
Of course, I enjoyed the work immensely, and I'll bet I wasn't alone.
A couple of the fundamental tenets from the playbook assumed by Classical Radio are that apart from the
Pulcinella Suite, the audiences hate anything
Stravinsky wrote after
The Firebird. And
Schoenberg? Maybe, just
maybe Verklärte Nacht (the string orchestra expansion.
Quote from: Daverz on September 19, 2024, 11:33:33 AMI hope my brain doesn't fall out. :o
Is your
skull as open as your mind?
Quote from: 71 dB on September 19, 2024, 08:19:01 AMWhat do you mean survive? Are you suggesting 100 years from now nobody knows this music ever existed?
Of course! A lot of the music I listen to is considered acquired taste. That's just how it is when you develop your taste beyond the mainstream stuff.
Oh, I think the history books will be kind to the Second Viennese School, but what I'm saying is music is a living, breathing thing that has to be performed in order for it to have any kind of hope of surviving or have any kind of semblance in people's lives. The concert-going public need to be exposed to this music whether they like it or not. Perhaps out of 50 listeners in the audience there will be 15 that come away from the atonal piece that has just been performed with a newfound respect for the idiom. This cannot happen if you continue to subject classical music to nothing more than a museum tour.
Well, what can I say? Orchestras need money and they play what sells. We live in a lunatic World where endless amount of money is wasted in wars/military/etc. while atonal has any value only to a small minority of people. Maybe it is not for Americans to keep Second Viennese School alive. Maybe that's for people living in Austria and Germany (I assume those works are mostly performed in those countries).
QuoteWell, what can I say? Orchestras need money and they play what sells.
"Bums in seats" has always been a factor, certainly in our lifetime. Nevertheless, I have attended live performances of
Gurrelieder,
Schoenberg's Violin Concerto, his
Suite-Septet,
Moses und Aron, the
Berg Kammerkonzert, and more.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 20, 2024, 06:25:34 AM"Bums in seats" has always been a factor, certainly in our lifetime. Nevertheless, I have attended live performances of Gurrelieder, Schoenberg's Violin Concerto, his Suite-Septet, Moses und Aron, the Berg Kammerkonzert, and more.
I think that it is the purview of major orchestras. It is the smaller orchestras that feel that pressure most keenly. Recently, my local orchestra, for example, sent me 3 concerts for a $99 deal because they can't just fill all the seats. And they certainly could not whenever they performed 20th century classical unfortunately.
Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2024, 06:50:36 AMI think that it is the purview of major orchestras. It is the smaller orchestras that feel that pressure most keenly. Recently, my local orchestra, for example, sent me 3 concerts for a $99 deal because they can't just fill all the seats. And they certainly could not whenever they performed 20th century classical unfortunately.
Very true. This is why it's especially a disgrace when a major US orchestra programs more
Brahms and
Beethoven than (to be honest) any loyal and experienced classical music listener feels can justify an expensive evening at Symphony. Because all the
Brahms and
Beethoven we might want is readily available at home either cheaper, or already paid for. I've heard the
Eroica, the
Ninth and the
Brahms Third in
Symphony Hall, and the band was good, of course, but none of those performances was notable.
Quote from: 71 dB on September 20, 2024, 06:18:37 AMWell, what can I say? Orchestras need money and they play what sells. We live in a lunatic World where endless amount of money is wasted in wars/military/etc. while atonal has any value only to a small minority of people. Maybe it is not for Americans to keep Second Viennese School alive. Maybe that's for people living in Austria and Germany (I assume those works are mostly performed in those countries).
Sure, yeah, I mean I get it --- atonal music is scary for people. Schoenberg is like that creepy monster hiding under your bed. But this is
why I mentioned exposure. I think more people would enjoy the Second Viennese School if they are given the chance to hear in it in concert. A lot of people just aren't going to go explore this music on their own without having been compelled to do so. I'm not saying that every concert should have Schoenberg on the program --- that would be ridiculous and unrealistic, but it would be nice
if orchestra board members (aka the stuffed shirts who actually don't know a damn thing about classical music to begin with) would throw a bone to concert goers sometimes. This probably happens more often in Europe than the US. Hell, I'd attend more classical concerts if there were more interesting programs being offered by my local orchestra.
If a conductor is a known specialist and has something very individual to offer, then it's OK to programme a Brahms or Beethoven symphony. Usually I'd never dream of going to Beethoven 7 in concert but a performance with the then 95 year old Blomstedt in the Berlin Philharmonie completely transformed the work and I was left spellbound.
However your average conductor should stick to trying to perform interesting works which are less well known and I really wish there were far fewer of the tedious warhorse violin and piano concertos which mainly seem to be a vehicle for superstars. The trouble is, as some have already pointed out, that this sort of thing seems to fill concert halls and the fact that I or Karl may avoid such concerts will not feature highly in the programming of the season.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2024, 07:23:17 PMSure, yeah, I mean I get it --- atonal music is scary for people.
Most people are afraid of
any music that is one inch from the music they have learned to like.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2024, 07:23:17 PMSchoenberg is like that creepy monster hiding under your bed. But this is why I mentioned exposure. I think more people would enjoy the Second Viennese School if they are given the chance to hear in it in concert.
Totally plausible.
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2024, 07:23:17 PMA lot of people just aren't going to go explore this music on their own without having been compelled to do so. I'm not saying that every concert should have Schoenberg on the program --- that would be ridiculous and unrealistic, but it would be nice if orchestra board members (aka the stuffed shirts who actually don't know a damn thing about classical music to begin with) would throw a bone to concert goers sometimes. This probably happens more often in Europe than the US. Hell, I'd attend more classical concerts if there were more interesting programs being offered by my local orchestra.
That's the annoying thing about the World: It could be better in many ways, but it isn't...
Quote from: Mirror Image on September 20, 2024, 07:23:17 PMThis probably happens more often in Europe than the US
I'm not actually convinced that it does from my experience in the UK and Germany. Certainly in Stuttgart which is a not insignificant musical centre (best known for its choirs and Bach tradition perhaps), I can find it quite hard to select seven concerts in an entire season for the "culture club" subscription series. Now I'd rather have more contemporary music but I have to admit to being a bit perverse in actually liking relatively little contemporary music, though perhaps we're finally starting to get a little more stylistic diversity. But even within the pretty well standard repertoire, the focus is so often on a tiny number of works. I don't ever remember seeing a single Martinu symphony being programmed here for instance, despite the fact he's hardly obscure. There are so many works which are similar to but not the same as the tiny core repertoire which the public would almost certainly enjoy, given the exposure. I don't know how often there are actual surveys made of the concert-going public. Do most people attend concerts because it's simply part of their social expectations? Such people perhaps go as much to be seen as to hear but they re surely not the overwhelming majority. Anyway, enough on that....
Similarly, the only Nielsen I am aware of having been programmed by the BSO is the Helios Overture, which was part of Paavo Berglund's program when he guest conducted.
well Nielsen is much more frequently performed over here, I would say. At any rate the 4th and 5th. I went to a Nielsen 5 not long ago. However, the other symphonies-- in particular 3 and 6 which in my book are just as interesting -- don't often make it. Sibelius, on the other hand, seems less popular in Germany than the UK, for instance.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 21, 2024, 08:11:21 AMSimilarly, the only Nielsen I am aware of having been programmed by the BSO is the Helios Overture, which was part of Paavo Berglund's program when he guest conducted.
I wonder, cynically, whether that's anything to do with rehearsal time, since
Helios is one of the easier Nielsen pieces - the only one my (amateur) orchestra has ever felt capable playing, for example.