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The Music Room => Great Recordings and Reviews => Topic started by: Luke on August 28, 2024, 02:07:46 AM

Title: Worst Recordings
Post by: Luke on August 28, 2024, 02:07:46 AM
Do we have a thread for 'worst recordings'? My current vote is for Geoffrey Saba's Stravinsky


(Of course this is insanely difficult repertoire, but if you can't do it, Geoffrey, don't opt to record it for posterity. It's as crazy as an 11 year old sightreading the Hammerklavier... )
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 03:08:58 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 28, 2024, 02:07:46 AMDo we have a thread for 'worst recordings'? My current vote is for Geoffrey Saba's Stravinsky


(Of course this is insanely difficult repertoire, but if you can't do it, Geoffrey, don't opt to record it for posterity. It's as crazy as an 11 year old sightreading the Hammerklavier... )

It's just too subjective. By coincidence yesterday I listened to an old recording, Konstantin Igumnov playing Chopin op 58. And I said to myself, I can't tell whether this is very good or very bad! It is very inspired though -- just not maybe good inspiration! Dunno.

Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Brian on August 28, 2024, 07:20:41 AM
The first thing my mind went to was the British prime minister Edward 'Ted' Heath's recording of the Cockaigne Overture with the LSO. But he is an amateur, so perhaps that explains why his tempo gets gradually slower and slower over the course of the piece. His arms were getting tired  ;D

The second thing that sprung to mind was this error-filled live recording that was for some reason released anyway:

Quote from: Brian on April 25, 2023, 10:32:03 AM(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/tc/w7/jhe9l6wlkw7tc_600.jpg)

Don Juan only. Why? Because this Don Juan f*$%#ing sucks. Sorry, but it's the kind of thing I would expect from, say, the Colchester Philharmonic, not the Philharmonia. Rouvali is mostly to blame. He stretches the piece to 19 minutes, but speeds through some of the big climaxes; it's long because the slow love scenes are soup. At their two big moments, the French horns are not prominent enough (try Previn/LSO!). The very first statement of the theme has a wrong rhythm, which sets the tone for the rest. Oddly, the oboe solo is so bright and shrill it sounds like a trumpet!

Add in tepid playing and rather shallow live recorded sound - it sounds like a radio broadcast - and there is no reason this should have ever been released to the public. Put it in the orchestra's archive where it belongs, and leave it there.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 28, 2024, 08:51:25 AM
Quote from: Luke on August 28, 2024, 02:07:46 AMDo we have a thread for 'worst recordings'? My current vote is for Geoffrey Saba's Stravinsky


(Of course this is insanely difficult repertoire, but if you can't do it, Geoffrey, don't opt to record it for posterity. It's as crazy as an 11 year old sightreading the Hammerklavier... )

Its curious because there is another Saba disc of piano showpieces that he plays very well (a VERY early CD);

(https://i.discogs.com/w2uFI8MUbkvPHeI0lRSlGr4IqVQZKrxyi1csba5a1N4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:40/h:300/w:300/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTk5MDcy/NjctMTcxNTQ5NTk0/Ny0yMTY2LmpwZWc.jpeg)

so he clearly does have the technique for this kind of music - I wonder why it went so wrong in the Stravinsky?
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Roasted Swan on August 28, 2024, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 28, 2024, 07:20:41 AMThe first thing my mind went to was the British prime minister Edward 'Ted' Heath's recording of the Cockaigne Overture with the LSO. But he is an amateur, so perhaps that explains why his tempo gets gradually slower and slower over the course of the piece. His arms were getting tired  ;D

The second thing that sprung to mind was this error-filled live recording that was for some reason released anyway:


I saw Santtu do some Strauss with the Phiharmonia very soon after his appointment as principal conductor.  I disliked just about every moment of it!  No sense of a "bigger picture" just lots of musical incidents along the way which did not cohere at all.  The orchestra played well enough with Santtu prancing around on the podium like the love child of Harry Potter and a Hobbit.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 10:54:32 AM
(https://c.media-amazon.com/images/I/51uVcNNUsFL.jpg)    (https://c.media-amazon.com/images/I/51QJlcF6iiL.jpg)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 10:54:32 AM(https://c.media-amazon.com/images/I/51uVcNNUsFL.jpg)    (https://c.media-amazon.com/images/I/51QJlcF6iiL.jpg)

Actually, I'll take this back. I've actually started to play it and it amazingly good. I'm not sure I'll get through the whole thing but still!
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 01:20:09 PM
I would say anything by Arthur Schoonderwoerd, doubtless the worst pianist alive.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on August 28, 2024, 01:21:21 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 01:20:09 PMI would say anything by Arthur Schoonderwoerd, doubtless the worst pianist alive.

You might just have given me a new listening project.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on August 28, 2024, 01:25:27 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 11:42:13 AMActually, I'll take this back. I've actually started to play it and it amazingly good. I'm not sure I'll get through the whole thing but still!
So, had you heard it before and didn't like it?  Or just initial thoughts upon looking at the compositions and the performers?  ???

PD
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: DavidW on August 28, 2024, 02:01:54 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 01:20:09 PMI would say anything by Arthur Schoonderwoerd, doubtless the worst pianist alive.

You've found something to agree with Hurwitz about! (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-hell-schoonderwoerds-mindless-beethoven-massacre/)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 03:39:31 PM
Quote from: DavidW on August 28, 2024, 02:01:54 PMYou've found something to agree with Hurwitz about! (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-hell-schoonderwoerds-mindless-beethoven-massacre/)

Stopped clock twice a day . . .
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: Todd on August 28, 2024, 01:21:21 PMYou might just have given me a new listening project.

I admit Riccardo Schwarz has given him some competition.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 03:43:40 PM
Quote from: Brian on August 28, 2024, 07:20:41 AMThe first thing my mind went to was the British prime minister Edward 'Ted' Heath's recording of the Cockaigne Overture with the LSO. But he is an amateur, so perhaps that explains why his tempo gets gradually slower and slower over the course of the piece. His arms were getting tired  ;D

Wait until you hear his Sibelius 5.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 07:29:17 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 01:20:09 PMI would say anything by Arthur Schoonderwoerd, doubtless the worst pianist alive.

Have you heard his Winterreise? I think it is outstanding.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 07:30:44 PM
Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on August 28, 2024, 01:25:27 PMSo, had you heard it before and didn't like it?  Or just initial thoughts upon looking at the compositions and the performers?  ???

PD

I had no memory of the variety. To me now it sounds like an immersive set of variations.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 08:18:40 PM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2024, 07:29:17 PMHave you heard his Winterreise? I think it is outstanding.

Does he sing too?
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: San Antone on August 28, 2024, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 01:20:09 PMI would say anything by Arthur Schoonderwoerd, doubtless the worst pianist alive.

I doubt that is true.  I am a fan of period instrument recordings, and have enjoyed his that I've heard. But his recordings as a conductor I find even more enjoyable; his recent Mozart Requiem is a refreshing interpretation, one which has become my favorite.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 28, 2024, 09:50:04 PM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 28, 2024, 01:20:09 PMI would say anything by Arthur Schoonderwoerd, doubtless the worst pianist alive.

I generally like the recordings of Arthur Schoonderwoerd.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: AnotherSpin on August 28, 2024, 10:26:18 PM
It's as pointless to name the worst recordings as it is to name the best. In any case, it's entirely subjective. Personally, I find some of Richter's recordings very bad, and nearly all of Pletnev's. In Richter's case, I hear some sort of vulgar and excessive voluntarism. The Liszt concertos LP with Kondrashin disgusted me so much that I broke the vinyl and tore the cover into small pieces. Though that was about forty years ago; maybe now it would be different. With Pletnev, I always end up in a bad mood, like I'm being sucked into some kind of Black Hole.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Mandryka on August 29, 2024, 12:25:15 AM
The interesting one to think about in this context is Daniel Ben Pienaar because he is so incredibly divisive. I know pianists who think he's just awful - ugly touch, ugly ideas. And I know pianists who appreciate his work very much.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: prémont on August 29, 2024, 01:09:21 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2024, 12:25:15 AMThe interesting one to think about in this context is Daniel Ben Pienaar because he is so incredibly divisive. I pianists who think he's just awful - ugly touch, ugly ideas. And I know pianists who appreciate his work very much.

Yes indeed. His Beethoven set has been wrapped in its cellophane on my shelf for a couple of years, but recently I decided to get through it. However, after three CDs, I had to stop, as I found it utterly unlistenable.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 05:04:01 AM
Quote from: San Antone on August 28, 2024, 09:17:08 PMI doubt that is true.  I am a fan of period instrument recordings, and have enjoyed his that I've heard. But his recordings as a conductor I find even more enjoyable; his recent Mozart Requiem is a refreshing interpretation, one which has become my favorite.

But surely you know that whenever someone uses the word "doubtless," they know they're saying something controversial.

As for moi, I can't stand his LvB concertos or Chopin ballades, and I've provided my reasons ad nauseum for anyone inclined to use the Search feature.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 05:05:09 AM
Quote from: prémont on August 29, 2024, 01:09:21 AMYes indeed. His Beethoven set has been wrapped in its cellophane on my shelf for a couple of years, but recently I decided to get through it. However, after three CDs, I had to stop, as I found it utterly unlistenable.

Which one was your favorite? I've only acquired the set recently myself.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on August 29, 2024, 05:46:16 AM
I considered a few different recordings in my collection, and this broad subject can be split into two main categories: recordings where recorded sound is so bad that an otherwise good or decent performance is ruined or a bad one amplified, and recordings where the playing is so bad that everything is ruined. 

Sticking with the narrow category of LvB sonatas, Dino Ciani's cycle falls into the first category.  Riccardo Schwartz falls into the second category. 

Expanding out just a bit, Marta Deyanova's Mozart falls into the first category; Heidi Lowy's Mozart falls into the second category. 
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on August 29, 2024, 05:55:37 AM
And to offer another example of an absolutely horrid recording, one that should be deleted from the catalog and expunged from people's minds, there's this obvious choice of non-musical charlatanism:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51SF4mwLPUL._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 07:39:52 AM
One of my candidates for worst recording has to be Bernstein's bloated Tchaikovsky Pathetique on DG, with its 17-minute finale. Hurwitz, who always praises Bernstein for his fidelity to scores, gets himself in a knot by arguing that Lenny chooses the impossibly slow tempos to balance the proportions with the first movement. But someone who truly cares about scores would not choose such tempos, since Tchaikovsky's carefully considered metronome markings give a timing of about 9-10 minutes. Whether you like the performance or not, to justify it you have to say that the metronome markings don't matter at all, and it seems to me that if Tchaikovsky had wanted a 17-minute finale he would have written 17 minutes of music.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Florestan on August 29, 2024, 08:02:26 AM
My nomination

Tchaikovsky - Violin Concerto - Amoyal / Dutoit / Philharmonia Orchestra

To make this work sound as lifeless as a corpse and as dull as a phone book is an achievement sui generis.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 08:11:38 AM
Quote from: Florestan on August 29, 2024, 08:02:26 AMMy nomination

Tchaikovsky - Violin Concerto - Amoyal / Dutoit / Philharmonia Orchestra

To make this work sound as lifeless as a corpse and as dull as a phone book is an achievement sui generis.

But I have known many fascinating phone books, and my share of lively corpses.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: DavidW on August 29, 2024, 09:10:09 AM
Quote from: Mandryka on August 29, 2024, 12:25:15 AMThe interesting one to think about in this context is Daniel Ben Pienaar because he is so incredibly divisive. I know pianists who think he's just awful - ugly touch, ugly ideas. And I know pianists who appreciate his work very much.

That is funny because I love Pienaar's Byrd. And I've dipped into his Haydn a bit without being revolted. But eh, what do I know? I leave the solo keyboard obsessions to you fine gentlemen!
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: DavidW on August 29, 2024, 09:13:16 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 07:39:52 AMOne of my candidates for worst recording has to be Bernstein's bloated Tchaikovsky Pathetique on DG, with its 17-minute finale. Hurwitz, who always praises Bernstein for his fidelity to scores, gets himself in a knot by arguing that Lenny chooses the impossibly slow tempos to balance the proportions with the first movement. But someone who truly cares about scores would not choose such tempos, since Tchaikovsky's carefully considered metronome markings give a timing of about 9-10 minutes. Whether you like the performance or not, to justify it you have to say that the metronome markings don't matter at all, and it seems to me that if Tchaikovsky had wanted a 17-minute finale he would have written 17 minutes of music.

I have an unpopular opinion that outside of Schumann and Mahler, I just don't care for late Bernstein. He is too excessive, slow, and indulgent. His more structured Columbia recordings end up sounding more driven and passionate, MOSTLY across the board.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on August 29, 2024, 09:17:52 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2024, 09:10:09 AMThat is funny because I love Pienaar's Byrd. And I've dipped into his Haydn a bit without being revolted. But eh, what do I know? I leave the solo keyboard obsessions to you fine gentlemen!

Pienaar's finest recorded work to date is The Long 17th Century.  It is magnificent, first note to last.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61uGc46WSnL._SX425_SY425_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)

More appropriate to this thread, his Mozart sonata cycle is among the very worst I've heard, almost as bad as Lowy.  I should probably revisit it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51poPw8DpfL._SX425_SY425_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: prémont on August 30, 2024, 02:01:26 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 29, 2024, 05:05:09 AMWhich one was your favorite? I've only acquired the set recently myself.

If you ask about my favorite among the ten sonatas I've listened to with Pienaar, I have no particular preference. However, when it comes to my favorite Beethoven pianist, the answers are numerous. Generally, I have a slight preference for a poetic interpretation of most sonatas.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Holden on August 30, 2024, 02:36:20 PM
There was a complete LvB cycle recorded a few years ago that was easily the worst I've ever heard. It was so bad I've even forgotten her name but I do know she is in the 'worst performances' category in Todd's survey. Maybe he can enlighten me.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2024, 03:09:38 PM
Quote from: Holden on August 30, 2024, 02:36:20 PMThere was a complete LvB cycle recorded a few years ago that was easily the worst I've ever heard. It was so bad I've even forgotten her name but I do know she is in the 'worst performances' category in Todd's survey. Maybe he can enlighten me.
If it was really, really fast all the time with no poetry and some wrong notes from rushing, it was HJ Lim.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Henk on August 30, 2024, 03:44:01 PM
I like Pienaar's Beethoven. Lim is not that bad to my taste. Quite neutral performances both and I like that. Pienaar is flawless, Lim might have some flaws.

EDIT: I checked Lim and I must admit Brian is right.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on August 30, 2024, 03:45:31 PM
Quote from: prémont on August 30, 2024, 02:01:26 AMIf you ask about my favorite among the ten sonatas I've listened to with Pienaar, I have no particular preference. However, when it comes to my favorite Beethoven pianist, the answers are numerous. Generally, I have a slight preference for a poetic interpretation of most sonatas.

I was using the word "favorite" ironically.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Holden on August 31, 2024, 03:07:10 AM
Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2024, 03:09:38 PMIf it was really, really fast all the time with no poetry and some wrong notes from rushing, it was HJ Lim.

You nailed it. Thank you
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: prémont on August 31, 2024, 03:30:29 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on August 30, 2024, 03:45:31 PMI was using the word "favorite" ironically.

So did I (because you did) and also the word preference in the first sentence, but not in the second.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: prémont on August 31, 2024, 03:33:59 AM
Quote from: Henk on August 30, 2024, 03:44:01 PMI like Pienaar's Beethoven. Lim is not that bad to my taste. Quite neutral performances both and I like that. Pienaar is flawless, Lim might have some flaws.

EDIT: I checked Lim and I must admit Brian is right.

Objectively speaking, neither Lim nor Pienaar can be considered neutral.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Henk on August 31, 2024, 04:32:18 AM
Quote from: prémont on August 31, 2024, 03:33:59 AMObjectively speaking, neither Lim nor Pienaar can be considered neutral.

How then would you describe Pienaar an what is a neutral performance according to you?  ::)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: prémont on August 31, 2024, 06:14:39 AM
Quote from: Henk on August 31, 2024, 04:32:18 AMHow then would you describe Pienaar an what is a neutral performance according to you?  ::)

Pienaar's interpretation of the Beethoven sonatas may be considered eccentric and overthought. This is not in my view concepts one associates with neutrality.

An utterly neutral performance would be one that allows the music to express itself without any added inflection — what Todd calls expressionless, exemplified by Gulda's Amadeo recording.

Most often the best interpretations strike a balance between these two extremes.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Henk on August 31, 2024, 07:20:37 AM
Quote from: prémont on August 31, 2024, 06:14:39 AMPienaar's interpretation of the Beethoven sonatas may be considered eccentric and overthought. This is not in my view concepts one associates with neutrality.

An utterly neutral performance would be one that allows the music to express itself without any added inflection — what Todd calls expressionless, exemplified by Gulda's Amadeo recording.

Most often the best interpretations strike a balance between these two extremes.

Thanks. I will check whether I feel the same.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Henk on August 31, 2024, 08:35:19 AM
Quote from: prémont on August 31, 2024, 06:14:39 AMPienaar's interpretation of the Beethoven sonatas may be considered eccentric and overthought. This is not in my view concepts one associates with neutrality.

An utterly neutral performance would be one that allows the music to express itself without any added inflection — what Todd calls expressionless, exemplified by Gulda's Amadeo recording.

Most often the best interpretations strike a balance between these two extremes.

I just compared Gulda with Pienaar. Pienaar is a bit more carried, but imo still quite neutral. Gulda is old-fashioned while it too is neutral. I challenge you to propose a more contemporary neutral performance. I state that Pienaar's is among the more neutral contemporary cycles. You can try to falsify, it's up to you.

EDIT: I withdraw the challenge. I'm listening to Pienaar now and I can hear what you mean. For me the sound of his Beethoven has become so usual to me, since I play it ofen as background music during reading that I don't reaĺly discern his particular way of playing.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Brian on September 01, 2024, 05:43:08 AM
How many different ways can you play one-two one-two?

Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 05:50:50 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2024, 05:43:08 AMHow many different ways can you play one-two one-two?


For all my advocacy of performers' freedom to play as they see fit according to their lights --- this is an atrocious crime against humanity.

Now, I have read about, but never heard, Tzimon Barto's playing before, but judging by this, I can only say that his critics are understating their case. This man should be either in jail or in a bedlam. ;D
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on September 01, 2024, 05:51:09 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2024, 05:43:08 AMHow many different ways can you play one-two one-two?


The esteemed Mr Barto is the world's leading trainwreck pianist.  Almost everything in his post-EMI days is perversely eccentric, and purposely so.  He at least has the technical ability to pull off most of his delightful abominations.  This is one of the few recordings to receive a 1 for artistic quality on ClassicsToday.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Cato on September 01, 2024, 08:38:30 AM
Many moons ago, I bought a record on the Phillips label of a Sibelius Symphony (maybe #2) with Sir Colin Davis conducting.


When I turned it over to Side Two, I heard:


"Now here is the sound of the Springfield rifle on the battlefield of Gettysburg: 'KA-POW!' "

And similar things throughout the entire second side kept playing (POW!  BOOM!).

NO Sibelius!


Somehow, a record with the sounds of weapons from the American Civil War's Battle of Gettysburg was produced (and who would buy that?!) and replaced half of the Sibelius symphony.  I kept it for a while as a humorous curiosity!

So that was one of the worst recordings which I had ever bought!   ;D
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 08:55:11 AM
Quote from: Todd on September 01, 2024, 05:51:09 AMThe esteemed Mr Barto is the world's leading trainwreck pianist.  Almost everything in his post-EMI days is perversely eccentric, and purposely so.  He at least has the technical ability to pull off most of his delightful abominations.  This is one of the few recordings to receive a 1 for artistic quality on ClassicsToday.

In fairness, he also gets a number of 2s and 3s: "Tzimon Barto may not be the most odious Ravel pianist on disc, but he's certainly among the top two or three."
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on September 01, 2024, 08:56:09 AM
Quote from: Cato on September 01, 2024, 08:38:30 AMWhen I turned it over to Side Two, I heard:

"Now here is the sound of the Springfield rifle on the battlefield of Gettysburg: 'KA-POW!' "

...and who would buy that?!

Especially given that LPs possess, at best, twelve bits of dynamic range.  You need at least eighteen bits to get even close to quasi-realizing cannon reports, after factoring in the proper distance from the microphones.

I had a similar experience with a Malipiero recording a few years back where Ashkenazy's Chopin Barcarolle closed it out.  One might prefer Chopin to Malipiero, so it's not exactly the same: https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,31.msg1084424.html#msg1084424
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 08:57:26 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 05:50:50 AMFor all my advocacy of performers' freedom to play as they see fit according to their lights --- this is an atrocious crime against humanity.

Now, I have read about, but never heard, Tzimon Barto's playing before, but judging by this, I can only say that his critics are understating their case. This man should be either in jail or in a bedlam. ;D

Wikipedia: "Tzimon Barto (born Johnny Barto Smith; January 2, 1963, in Eustis, Florida) is an American classical pianist. He is also a bodybuilder, novelist, poet, philosopher and speaks seven languages." So there.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Brian on September 01, 2024, 09:00:45 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 08:57:26 AMWikipedia: "Tzimon Barto (born Johnny Barto Smith; January 2, 1963, in Eustis, Florida) is an American classical pianist. He is also a bodybuilder, novelist, poet, philosopher and speaks seven languages." So there.
Oh wow! All these years I assumed from his name that he was some sort of Hungarian or Slovak guy. But no, he truly is the musical embodiment of Florida Man. Johnny Smith. Wow.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 09:01:30 AM
Quote from: DavidW on August 29, 2024, 09:13:16 AMI have an unpopular opinion that outside of Schumann and Mahler, I just don't care for late Bernstein. He is too excessive, slow, and indulgent. His more structured Columbia recordings end up sounding more driven and passionate, MOSTLY across the board.

After leaving a late-career performance of his Mahler 2 with the NYP at Lincoln Center, I couldn't help thinking, would these distortions and exaggerations be tolerated from a younger conductor, one without Bernstein's reputation? (But I also remember around this same time a fabulous Sibelius 1 with the VPO at Carnegie Hall. I'm sorry to say I only heard Lenny live on a few occasions, not having the money in my youth to do more.)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 09:03:56 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2024, 09:00:45 AMOh wow! All these years I assumed from his name that he was some sort of Hungarian or Slovak guy. But no, he truly is the musical embodiment of Florida Man. Johnny Smith. Wow.

I've seen him live only once, at the State U at Stony Brook, Long Island. I think it was Beethoven 3. Or was it Tchaikovsky 1? All I can remember is that yes, he's definitely a bodybuilder.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 09:04:24 AM
Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2024, 09:00:45 AMAll these years I assumed from his name that he was some sort of Hungarian or Slovak guy.

All these years I assumed from his name that he was Jewish. Now that I think of it, I should have known better, Jewish pianists are usually top tier.  ;D
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on September 01, 2024, 09:05:01 AM
There may be a connection between these two posts.

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 08:57:26 AMTzimon Barto (born Johnny Barto Smith; January 2, 1963, in Eustis, Florida)

Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 08:55:11 AMIn fairness, he also gets a number of 2s and 3s: "Tzimon Barto may not be the most odious Ravel pianist on disc, but he's certainly among the top two or three."

These may answer that decades old question from The X-Files:

(https://i.gifer.com/1HJn.gif)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 09:13:32 AM
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 09:04:24 AMAll these years I assumed from his name that he was Jewish. Now that I think of it, I should have known better, Jewish pianists are usually top tier.  ;D


You haven't heard me play.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on September 01, 2024, 09:23:36 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 09:03:56 AMAll I can remember is that yes, he's definitely a bodybuilder.

Yes, but a potentially natural, non-competitive one who spent a lot of time on his arms.  There was no sign of heavy steroid, or any HGH or insulin use. 

(https://www.surech.ch/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/TzimonBarto.png)
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 09:32:33 AM
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 01, 2024, 09:13:32 AMYou haven't heard me play.

I'm sure that listening to you play and talk would be a much more interesting and pleasant experience than listening to Barto.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 01, 2024, 10:55:50 PM
Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2024, 09:00:45 AMOh wow! All these years I assumed from his name that he was some sort of Hungarian or Slovak guy. But no, he truly is the musical embodiment of Florida Man. Johnny Smith. Wow.

The name Barto could indicate Hungarian roots. The Barto's website mentions that he knows Hebrew, which could indeed suggest Jewish heritage.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Luke on September 02, 2024, 12:44:55 AM
At risk of getting shot down, I have to say that although I recognize the flaws in many of Bartos' recordings sometimes his extreme interpretations can hit on a real gem. His disc of Chopin Preludes, for instance, has some extraordinarily strange interpretations, including some ultra-stretched-out tempi which don't really work and test one's patience, but also some very beautiful and lucid ones. His reading of the tiny, minor, Contredance - one of the fillers on that disc - is my favorite version of that piece, because he takes it seriously and invests it with a bit of poetry that no one else finds. At the very least he certainly 'has the chops,' as someone said earlier. In the example I gave in the OP Geoffrey Saba has slipped over and dropped his chops all over the floor. It renders that disc embarrassingly unlistenable, not because of dodgy interpretative ideas but because we don't get as far as interpretation. He. Can't. Play. It.
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: AnotherSpin on September 02, 2024, 01:20:37 AM
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 01, 2024, 11:24:11 PMOkay, I had to go listen to this guy. W.T.F. was that WTC. I've not played the piano in well over a decade, and I am 100 percent confident I can phrase the WTC better. He's so bad, it almost makes me want to. That he might have been paid to record that is infuriating!

I have listened to, if not all, then many recordings by Tzimon Barto, and I often liked what I heard. Of course, one has to be prepared for the fact that he plays not quite the way it is traditionally approved (approved by whom, by the way?).
Title: Re: Worst Recordings
Post by: Todd on September 02, 2024, 04:08:33 AM
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2024, 12:44:55 AMAt the very least he certainly 'has the chops,' as someone said earlier.

Barto obviously can play extremely well (Distler notes this), and extremely beautifully.  The 18th variation from the Rach Paganini variations, which I revisited yesterday, is exquisitely beautiful, more than from many famous pianists, for instance.  It's worth remembering that he recorded for EMI for a while, and generally speaking, major labels, when they were still major, did not sign just anybody.  Of course, if one looks at the EMI covers and copy from the time, he can be looked at as the American Pogorelich, which he kind of is or was.  Pogorelich's Haydn slow movements, for instance, are as perverse as anything Barto has done.  Barto made the comment regarding his tendency to distort scores to the effect that he can't harm great scores any more than he could hurt the state of David by throwing paint on it.  The paint would be washed off and forgotten.  He's purposely "provocative".