For the purpose of this thread cycle means at least two.
My list, chronologically:
Chopin
Albeniz
Rachmaninoff
Medtner
York Bowen
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 05:41:44 AMFor the purpose of this thread cycle means at least two.
My list, chronologically:
Chopin
Albeniz
Rachmaninoff
Medtner
York Bowen
Wot no Bax!?!? Albeniz - you're 'aving a larf......... >:D >:D
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 01, 2024, 08:04:21 AMWot no Bax!?!? Albeniz - you're 'aving a larf......... >:D >:D
Well, I never heard the Bax sonatas. Have you ever heard the Albeniz ones? >:D >:D
No need to argue, gentleman. It's neither Albéniz nor Bax. The correct answer is...Pierre Boulez!
Quote from: ritter on September 01, 2024, 08:37:24 AMNo need to argue, gentleman. It's neither Albéniz nor Bax. The correct answer is...Pierre Boulez!
And why not? After all, I didn't mention, nor did I envision, any scientific evaluation.
Prokofiev hands down!
Quote from: ritter on September 01, 2024, 08:37:24 AMThe correct answer is...Pierre Boulez!
An acceptable answer. Also acceptable: Scriabin and Prokofiev. These have been scientifically determined to be the best non-Germanic piano sonata composers.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 08:45:10 AMProkofiev hands down!
of course, next would be Scriabin. Scarlatti are not multi-movement sonatas, so I would not count them.
I cannot accept 3 sonatas of which 1 is almost never played as in the case of Chopin as "cycle".
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2024, 09:01:09 AMScarlatti are not multi-movement sonatas, so I would not count them.
I must split hairs here since the thread is about piano sonatas, and Scarlatti did not compose for the piano. The same applies to Soler, who is at least as good as Scarlatti. The single movement critique is a solid one.
You (plural) may stretch the meaning of Piano Sonata as far as you want. But if you do that, then I'll add Scarlatti on the top of my list.
Quote from: Jo498 on September 01, 2024, 09:01:09 AMI cannot accept 3 sonatas of which 1 is almost never played as in the case of Chopin as "cycle".
I defined cycle as "at least two". My thread, my rules. ;D
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 08:45:10 AMProkofiev hands down!
For me, as well. I should dive back into the
Skryabin sonatas, though.
Others that come to my mind:
Szymanowski (3)
Rubinstein (4)
Bacewicz (3)
Ginastera (3)
Tippett (4)
Enescu (2) (A pity that his 2nd Sonata is lost)
Liszt:
Sonata in B Minor
Dante sonata
3 Petrarca sonatas
Do you mean the 3 Petrarch Sonnets? I'm unaware of a sonata, unless my mind is having a 'moment'
Quote from: San Antone on September 01, 2024, 10:01:17 AMLiszt:
Sonata in B Minor
Dante sonata
I'll willingly give you those two.
Quote3 Petrarca sonatas
I'm usually a liberal and tolerant guy, but stretching Sonata to Sonnet is too far and too off mark. ;D
I guess the point of the thread is that the piano sonata is so intimately tied in with austro-germanic piano music that it doesn't make sense to discuss it excluding those composers.
But solo piano is so much richer than the sonata. Who even needs the sonata when we have Messaien, Faure, Chopin and Liszt?
Quote from: Luke on September 01, 2024, 10:06:56 AMDo you mean the 3 Petrarch Sonnets? I'm unaware of a sonata, unless my mind is having a 'moment'
Oops - my bad.
Of course it's just my personal feeling but to my mind a cycle is more than a couple of sonatas, it is a series spread out over a number of years or even a lifetime which show growth and which seem to 'talk' to each other. So to me the great sonata cycles beyond Beethoven, Haydn etc are those of Scriabin, Prokofiev, Medtner, Tippett, which though smaller in number covers his stylistic journey almost from beginning to end
Medtner, Scriabin and Prokofiev are the top three as far as I'm concerned. And I believe it has been established by the wider scientific community that the Boulez sonatas are classified as sound conglomerates rather than works of music. 😀
Quote from: Wanderer on September 01, 2024, 10:26:41 AMMedtner, Scriabin and Prokofiev are the top three as far as I'm concerned.
Putinist! ;D
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 09:57:28 AMGinastera (3)
These were completely off my radar until I watched
Barbara Nissman's masterclass DVD. Great stuff!
Quote from: DavidW on September 01, 2024, 10:09:18 AMI guess the point of the thread is that the piano sonata is so intimately tied in with austro-germanic piano music that it doesn't make sense to discuss it excluding those composers.
Well, you're wrong. There's more to music of whatever genre than the Austro-Germanic variety. ;D
Heck, it has just right now crossed my mind: what about a top ten ballet music? I am sure there will be no Austro-German composer in it... ;D
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 09:57:28 AMEnescu (2) (A pity that his 2nd Sonata is lost)[/b]
Think we need VAR to make a call on this one. I say cheating!
Quote from: San Antone on September 01, 2024, 10:01:17 AMLiszt:
Sonata in B Minor
Dante sonata
3 Petrarca sonatas
I'm not sure Liszt qualifies as non-Austro-German proper. His parents were both native German-speaking folks. His birthplace is in Austria. He never spoke Hungarian.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 01, 2024, 10:40:47 AMThese were completely off my radar until I watched Barbara Nissman's masterclass DVD. Great stuff!
I know the first two sonatas via the CPO recording featuring Michael Korstick. The 3rd Sonata is on the ASV label IIRC, and that's what I know about them.
Quote from: Maestro267 on September 01, 2024, 11:10:48 AMThink we need VAR to make a call on this one. I say cheating!
Why? The sonatas 1 and 3 exist and they can qualify as a cycle despite the absence of the 2nd.
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 11:35:40 AMWhy? The sonatas 1 and 3 exist and they can qualify as a cycle despite the absence of the 2nd.
The VAR decided: at least two, therefore Enescu is a legit entry.
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 11:37:55 AMThe VAR decided: at least two, therefore Enescu is a legit entry.
And it has nothing to do with the VAR sharing the nationality of the composer in question. ;)
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 11:43:13 AMAnd it has nothing to do with the VAR sharing the nationality of the composer in question. ;)
Of course not, given that Enescu is not even in my top ten composers.
The rules are clear and specified as such in the OP: at least two piano sonatas.
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 08:17:10 AMWell, I never heard the Bax sonatas. Have you ever heard the Albeniz ones? >:D >:D
Curses - you have found me out!!!
However there is this Gramophone review to consider.........
"The considerable confusion that surrounds his output (the same work with different titles, different works with the same name) also extends to his sonatas, of which he claimed at various times to have written seven, eight or 12. In fact only single movements of Nos. 1 and 7 seem to have been written, and Nos. 2 and 6 are non-existent: the only three complete sonatas are those recorded here.
Stylistically they can be categorized as graceful highly pianistic salon music with roots in such romantic composers as Weber (the energetically agile finale of No. 3), Chopin and Schumann (the busy-textured first movement of No. 5, whose leggiero finale however hints at an acquaintance with Scarlatti). Serious sonata structure is often subjugated to
pretty pianistic frills, and internal proportions are not well considered—the initial Allegro of No. 5 is far too long,
its finale far too short—but on a less exalted level all this music is
agreeable enough. The same goes for L'automne, an extended waltz of easy charm (the first section in G minor, is the most striking) of which Albeniz thought well enough to orchestrate it later. Albert Guiovart plays everything with fluency, spirit and sensitive tonal gradations: occasionally (as in the left-hand runs in L'automne) he might have been more sparing of the pedal in the acoustics of the church in which he was recorded; but in general he presents to best effect
these pleasant, if not very distinctive, works.'
The case for the prosecution rests m'lud........
Quote from: Roasted Swan on September 01, 2024, 11:49:27 AMCurses - you have found me out!!!
However there is this Gramophone review to consider.........
[..]
The case for the prosecution rests m'lud........
Your honour, I demand that the prosecution answer yes or no this simple question: have they listened to any Albeniz piano sonata?
Quote from: Todd on September 01, 2024, 09:09:18 AMI must split hairs here since the thread is about piano sonatas, and Scarlatti did not compose for the piano. The same applies to Soler, who is at least as good as Scarlatti. The single movement critique is a solid one.
I am not sure if Soler might not have already written for fortepiano and he has in fact some multi movement sonatas in a addition to the more Scarlattian ones. So does Blasco da Nebra and of course Clementi who is also a serious contender, unless one counts him as too close to Viennese classicism despite his natonality.
Clemenți is legit. So is Blasco de Nebra. So is Galuppi, for that matter.
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 11:46:02 AMThe rules are clear and specified as such in the OP: at least two piano sonatas.
No two is not a cycle. It is not even a pattern! I'm abusing my moderator status and overruling you even if it is your thread! >:D :-*
Quote from: DavidW on September 01, 2024, 12:15:20 PMNo two is not a cycle. It is not even a pattern! I'm abusing my moderator status and overruling you even if it is your thread! >:D :-*
I yield to brute force —— yet I do protest most vigorously! ;D
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 12:27:18 PMI yield to brute force —— yet I do protest most vigorously! ;D
Be fair: would two songs be a song cycle?
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 01, 2024, 12:34:25 PMBe fair: would two songs be a song cycle?
Absolutely not. But then again, did Beethoven conceived his series of piano sonatas as a cycle proper?
Cycle is just a name, which might or not have any significance.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 01, 2024, 12:43:55 PMTwo can most definitely make a cycle - this happens a lot with piano pieces
No argument from me here.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 01, 2024, 12:43:55 PMGeorge Walker's 5 piano sonatas are my pick for this list.
Are they on YT or free Spotify?
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 01, 2024, 12:50:56 PMThey are all on YouTube
1
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S6pRXxyrgxw
2
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9S67WpxWaWs
3
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zaOrsIv35iM
4
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mEa0ob5neiY
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1ThOHoEM-8c
5
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sjpL7Wjd6uU
Thanks. Saved for later listening.
I'm inclined to call a pair a diptych, but I'm also disinclined to foster argument on the point.
My list:
Scarlatti
Prokofiev
Boulez
Schnittke
Scriabin
Clementi
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 01, 2024, 02:42:19 PMI'm inclined to call a pair a diptych, but I'm also disinclined to foster argument on the point.
Call it, Karl! Have no fear!
Quote from: DavidW on September 01, 2024, 02:43:10 PMMy list:
Scarlatti
Prokofiev
Boulez
Schnittke
Scriabin
Clementi
Schnittke is a good call there, and reminded me of Silvestrov's sonatas which are interesting, fine works IMO
Quote from: Symphonic Addict on September 01, 2024, 11:35:40 AMWhy? The sonatas 1 and 3 exist and they can qualify as a cycle despite the absence of the 2nd.
I stand corrected. Though you should have specified 3 in parentheses.
A few more, each with multiple contributions to the genre:
Ornstein
Roslavetz
Feinberg
Ullmann
Miaskovsky
Hoddinott
Oh, and how can I forget, the most prolific of the lot, the weird and wonderful (and recently deceased) John White. So much fun! 180+ sonatas...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_White_(composer)
James Clarke
Philippe Manoury
Chris Newman
Salvatore Sciarrino
Horatio Radulescu
Sergei Prokofiev
Alfred Schnittke
John Cage
Ferruccio Busoni
Alexander Scriabin
Franz Liszt
Radulescu - yes! G4eat pieces, a proper cycle.
Sciarrino, similarly
Busoni definitely, if we're allowed sonatinas. Works of major importance and great beauty. And what a stylistic range!
Cage - I'm not sure they really count, they're part of a single work. Though I considered suggesting them myself!
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2024, 08:46:06 AMOh, and how can I forget, the most prolific of the lot, the weird and wonderful (and recently deceased) John White. So much fun! 180+ sonatas...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_White_(composer)
Have you heard Chris Newman's sonatas?
I'm aware and have seen scores but I've not heard anything.
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2024, 09:36:02 AMI'm aware and have seen scores but I've not heard anything.
Michael Finnissy recorded some of them - I think he's a good composer. I'm listening now to the Sibelius sonatinas - interesting, lovely music.
A sonatina is presumably a little sonata!
Quote from: Florestan on September 01, 2024, 10:31:16 AM[CENSORED] ;D
I don't believe any of them would condone the current situation in Russia.
Quote from: Luke on September 02, 2024, 08:41:22 AMA few more, each with multiple contributions to the genre:
Ornstein
Roslavetz
Feinberg
Ullmann
Miaskovsky
Hoddinott
I need to wade into the
Myaskovsky sonatas. And much as I've enjoyed the odd
Ornstein piece, it hadn't occurred to me to see about sonatas.
There's some great stuff there. Not as iconoclastic as early Ornstein, much more romantic-Rachmaninoffy in style.
Edit - to be more precise, we only have sonatas 4 to 8, and 4 is from near the beginning of his enormously long career (1918) whilst the others are at the other end (no 8 is 1990). 4 is the most Rachmaninov-like of the lot, despite its proximity to his wildest and most famous works. The later sonatas are less easily accessible than no 4, in general, but still much less barbed and more traditional in texture than those magnificent early masterpieces.
Quote from: Wanderer on September 02, 2024, 09:47:33 AMI don't believe any of them would condone the current situation in Russia.
Oh, absolutely. I was just joking.
(https://laboiteamusique.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04-1/0608917731323.jpg)
"Embracing pianistic templates in a refreshing way, integrating short pieces into a larger form and the sound of a Straight Strung Concert Grande (a concert grand piano from Chris Maene's piano factory) formed the starting point. The short sonatas walk through all the keys, such as Bach's Wohltemperirtes Clavier or Chopin's Preludes. They each have a clear connection with existing forms and old composers, or are inspired by them. For example, we hear a jazzy Scarlatti, a quiet continuation of the moving accompaniment figure of the Lacrimosa from Mozart's Requiem, dreamy Bach-like reflections and a theme from a Mozart sonata that suddenly leans towards minor, but also more autonomous music. Everything melodious and accessible, but never lazy or soft. Pianistic investigations with a surprising angle. Small gems that string together to form a beautiful whole. The grand piano with all the strings stretched parallel sounds direct and expressive. A joy to listen to."
24 sonatas fit on 1 cd!
Piet Swerts (https://matrix-new-music.be/en/publications/flemish-composers-database/swerts-piet/)