Well, this is an engrossing read.
https://van-magazine.com/mag/alexey-shor-kononenko-ishkhanov-russian-influence-classical-music/
Alexey Shor is an apparently Saul-like composer of derivative new music with simple harmonies and blandly inspirational moods. (WA Mozart might like his music!) He's also a multimillionaire, and he has partnered with a Russian oil and gas baron, Russian "cultural attaches," and Russian performers like Mikhail Pletnev and Evgeny Kissin to spread his music far and wide around the world.
Some of the highlights of this long read:
- a Dubai-based piano competition that appears rigged in favor of the jurors' students
- another piano competition that requires the winner play Shor's music at every stop on their next tour
- a conductor's job being saved by a petition from Greco-Roman wrestlers
- Malta's buy-a-passport scheme
- loads of performers who play Shor's music, including Steven Isserlis, James Ehnes, and Gautier Capucon, declining to comment on why they do it
- a photo credited to "Reanu Keeves"
- famous dossier compiler Christopher Steele
- videos of Shor's compositions so you can judge them for yourself
Additionally, if you're curious about albums featuring Shor, there are a surprising number.
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ic/76/v9gxgsyjv76ic_600.jpg) (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/3b/o7/gevi0mugoo73b_600.jpg) (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/46/69/0825646486946_600.jpg) (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/za/dv/wkavd4cerdvza_600.jpg) (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/4a/j9/kaykw4dc5j94a_600.jpg) (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/17/54/0002894815417_600.jpg) (https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/hb/oo/f2lxg3tpnoohb_600.jpg)
The conductor on the Naxos album is a minor character in the article.
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2024, 06:59:43 PM(WA Mozart might like his music!)
This is why Mozart wrote "A Musical Joke."
Socially fascinating.
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2024, 06:59:43 PMAlexey Shor is an apparently Saul-like composer of derivative new music with simple harmonies and blandly inspirational moods. (WA Mozart might like his music!)
For a while, I didn't get your joke and took your comment literally. It's just when I was in the middle of writing a reply that I suddenly got what, or rather who, you really meant. :laugh:
QuoteImmediately following the performance, the musician who played Shor in Dubai two years ago swore that he would never play the composer's work again. "I did it once for the good money," he said, "but in and of itself, it's just too shitty."
Then he was asked to perform another handful of Shor concerts. The combination of high fees, low required practice time, passive peer pressure, and broad funding freezes for classical music performances meant that the musician felt unable to say no. He performed the work twice more, in Europe this time, for the same fee and with the same uncanny feeling: that reaching audiences with excellent performances wasn't quite the point. Would he do it again in the future? "Hopefully," he said, "that won't be necessary."
This guy is a coward and a hypocrite, a far more obnoxious person than both Shor and Ishkanov taken together.
From an article: "In Vladimir Putin's Russia, classical music has served as a potent tool of influence, though a more subtle one than troll farms, election inference, and disinformation. In 2014, Putin signed a decree encouraging the use of music to strategically "encourage a positive image of Russia on the international level." What a surprise! However, isn't even this forum an opportunity for interesting observations?
I listened to Alexey Shor on Qobuz. Repulsive. Nevertheless, we can look at this story more broadly. Are we not told permanently that the ordinary and invisible are no different from the best and most talented? Aren't mediocrities now given the same opportunities as geniuses? After all, if mediocrity is not given its due, it may take offence, whereas what does it matter to genius? The genius is already mad, creating not for common people, but for who knows who. The common people, they don't understand them. But a composer who writes music that can easily be hummed by any passerby is another matter. This is a sign of the times: mediocrity creates for mediocrity, everyone is equal, everyone is included, and everyone now has the right to be heard.
Somehow, I'm not surprised that Pletnev allows himself to be used. A slimy, spineless character.
"Multiple musicians pointed out that Shor's work reminds them of music composed by artificial intelligence." This, I think, does a disservice to artificial intelligence. After hearing Shor's 4th Violin Concerto (sad to say, there are more), I do indeed think it a work worthy to be placed alongside the best of Saul. It is somewhat shocking however to hear Shor's work played by a violinist as qualified as Daniel Lozakovich, whose Tchaikovsky concerto is one of the best I've heard. Shor must pay well. But note that Daniel hasn't memorized this music, as if to say he's doing little more than sight-reading and couldn't bother to memorize this garbage.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 05:28:44 AM"Multiple musicians pointed out that Shor's work reminds them of music composed by artificial intelligence." This, I think, does a disservice to artificial intelligence. After hearing Shor's 4th Violin Concerto (sad to say, there are more), I do indeed think it a work worthy to be placed alongside the best of Saul.
Now THAT was funny!
For those who cannot understand the reference to "Saul,"
Saul Dzorelashvili is a former member here, who had a very modest musical talent, hindered perhaps by an obsession with
Mendelssohn, whose music,
Saul believed, could never be bettered, except for his pieces, which were usually imitative of
Mendelssohn's style.
From 2010!
QuoteOctober 19, 2010, 06:29:31 AM
I agree that Sforzando has, together with Luke some time back, provided genuinely helpful critique from which Saul might have profited. greg has also weighed in to try and clarify the thinking on key shifts.
Saul has taken marginal aspects of these remarks on board, but really, if anyone thought that he was about to rush off for formal composition classes, well....you are now I hope completely disabused.
The underlying attitude is not one of teachability and I again therefore ask, rhetorically, to others not specified above; why bother to repeat earlier ignored remarks? Some have fallen into the trap of direct insult.
While it is true that everyone is entitled to post here, I am getting the impression from some posters that they embark on a parallel exercise to entering into a vegetarian restaurant and insisting that meat be served; then persisting with the futile campaign when the owners are obdurate.
I am locking this thread for now and I will be tidying away a few intemperate posts that have been reported and perhaps some that have not. Even if someone is a fool, saying so explicitly here is against the rules.
Knight
See also:
https://www.music-discussion.com/showthread.php?tid=6718 (https://www.music-discussion.com/showthread.php?tid=6718)
Quote from: AnotherSpin on September 12, 2024, 12:55:07 AMAre we not told permanently that the ordinary and invisible are no different from the best and most talented? Aren't mediocrities now given the same opportunities as geniuses? ... This is a sign of the times: mediocrity creates for mediocrity, everyone is equal, everyone is included, and everyone now has the right to be heard.
This is an unusual circumstance because the mediocrity here is wealthy and purchased its opportunities. It's even paying for soloist competitions to reward other kinds of artist for their loyalty to the mediocre man in charge. So while I take your "everyone is equal" point in the artistic sense, Alexey Shor's "equality" as an artist was purchased with his millions.
I love the trenchant understatement of knight's The underlying attitude is not one of teachability
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 05:57:00 AMThis is an unusual circumstance because the mediocrity here is wealthy and purchased its opportunities. It's even paying for soloist competitions to reward other kinds of artist for their loyalty to the mediocre man in charge. So while I take your "everyone is equal" point in the artistic sense, Alexey Shor's "equality" as an artist was purchased with his millions.
Obviously, here mediocrity buys talents to perform its opuses. On reflection, this is more of a plus than a minus. It's much worse when mediocrity is pushed forward for free, simply because that's the current trend.
I'm thinking Valley of the Dolls.
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2024, 06:59:43 PMWell, this is an engrossing read.
https://van-magazine.com/mag/alexey-shor-kononenko-ishkhanov-russian-influence-classical-music/
Alexey Shor is an apparently Saul-like composer of derivative new music with simple harmonies and blandly inspirational moods. (WA Mozart might like his music!) He's also a multimillionaire, and he has partnered with a Russian oil and gas baron, Russian "cultural attaches," and Russian performers like Mikhail Pletnev and Evgeny Kissin to spread his music far and wide around the world.
Some of the highlights of this long read:
- a Dubai-based piano competition that appears rigged in favor of the jurors' students
- another piano competition that requires the winner play Shor's music at every stop on their next tour
- a conductor's job being saved by a petition from Greco-Roman wrestlers
- Malta's buy-a-passport scheme
- loads of performers who play Shor's music, including Steven Isserlis, James Ehnes, and Gautier Capucon, declining to comment on why they do it
- a photo credited to "Reanu Keeves"
- famous dossier compiler Christopher Steele
- videos of Shor's compositions so you can judge them for yourself
Interesting to read Van Magazine's own confession to having taken paid advertising from the composer.
The article left me wondering; how much--or how little--things have changed in terms of funding for the arts and artists over the years? You have enough money? You can hire certain artists to perform for you and your buddies...or as part of a wedding festival. Do politics matter?
🧐PD
Nothing unique about being a "wealthy dilettante composer." Before there was Shor, there was this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nanes
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 05:57:00 AMThis is an unusual circumstance because the mediocrity here is wealthy and purchased its opportunities. It's even paying for soloist competitions to reward other kinds of artist for their loyalty to the mediocre man in charge. So while I take your "everyone is equal" point in the artistic sense, Alexey Shor's "equality" as an artist was purchased with his millions.
This is similar to wealthy Gilbert Kaplan conducting Mahler 2 with no experience in conducting.
I did hear him do it live in London once, and he did hold it together. But how much of that was the orchestra's contribution, I don't know.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 10:18:58 AMdid hear him do it live in London once, and he did hold it together. But how much of that was the orchestra's contribution, I don't know.
Indeed, a good orchestra can manage even if there is an orangutan at the podium. They won't be
Orpheus Chamber Orchestra tight, but they'll keep it together.
Quote from: Cato on September 12, 2024, 05:52:23 AMa former member here, who had a very modest musical talent
I'm sorry, but I think that statement unjust towards anyone who genuinely possesses a very modest musical talent.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 12, 2024, 10:23:58 AMIndeed, a good orchestra can manage even if there is an orangutan at the podium. They won't be Orpheus Chamber Orchestra tight, but they'll keep it together.
Orpheus are the ones with no official conductor, yes?
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 12, 2024, 08:12:42 AMNothing unique about being a "wealthy dilettante composer." Before there was Shor, there was this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nanes
And before there was Nanes, there were Benedetto and Alessandro Marcello, Tommaso Albinoni, Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia and Mikhail Glinka. That their music is infinitely superior to that of Nanes and Shor is evidence for the fact that back then
dilettante was actually a term of praise, not abuse. :laugh:
Quote from: NumberSix on September 12, 2024, 10:40:40 AMOrpheus are the ones with no official conductor, yes?
Correct.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 10:34:57 AMI'm sorry, but I think that statement unjust towards anyone who genuinely possesses a very modest musical talent.
I think you're being too harsh. In my book, any person who can write music, ie can put to paper what they hear in their head, does possess musical talent, albeit minimal. Take me, for instance: I often dream melodies of my own, of which I recall a piano concerto movement and an operatic aria --- yet I am completely unable to write them down. I mean, I could indicate the tempo and the dynamic markings but I'm at a complete loss and irremediable clueless when it comes to notes, chords and keys. The reverse is also true: I can play
Eine Kleine Nacht Musik in my head --- but if I look at the score it's all the same as a calf looking at a new gate. Saul Dzorelashvili is obviously at least a class above on both counts.
Actually, I see nothing wrong, morally or otherwise, in what Shor does. He composes music and lavishes large sums of money on whoever is willing to play it. What is wrong in all that, honestly?
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2024, 12:24:25 PMActually, I see nothing wrong, morally or otherwise, in what Shor does. He composes music and lavishes large sums of money on whoever is willing to play it. What is wrong in all that, honestly?
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 11, 2024, 08:56:24 PMSocially fascinating.
Insofar as I have an actual answer: probably nothing within the confines of that transaction. As with
The Valley of the Dolls, there's some degree of fraud involved, but there's arguably no
victim of this species of fraud. Let the fraudsters look to their conscience, though one scarcely expects a Russian fraudster to be possessed of much of a conscience.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 05:28:44 AMIt is somewhat shocking however to hear Shor's work played by a violinist as qualified as Daniel Lozakovich, whose Tchaikovsky concerto is one of the best I've heard. Shor must pay well.
Well, exactly. I wonder how much was Lozakovich paid by DG for his Tchaikovsky concerto recording (which is indeed superb) as against how much Shor paid him for playing his (Shor's) music.
I think it's high time to discard once and for all one of the most ludicrous notions inherited from Romanticism, namely that of the poor but brilliant artist who would rather starve than compromise his lofty ideals. In reality there has never been such a beast, and the extremely lucrative careers of such arch-Romantics as Paganini and Liszt suffice to expose the pretentiousness and conceit behind the concept.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 12, 2024, 12:42:37 PMInsofar as I have an actual answer: probably nothing within the confines of that transaction. As with The Valley of the Dolls, there's some degree of fraud involved, but there's arguably no victim of this species of fraud. Let the fraudsters look to their conscience, though one scarcely expects a Russian fraudster to be possessed of much of a conscience.
I'm not sure I can agree, Karl.
Here is how the Cambridge dictionary defines fraud:
the crime of getting money by deceiving peopleThis is the exact opposite of what Shor does: he pays good money to people willing to play his music. Seems to me this is much more like a freely-agreed-upon contract than a fraud. YMMV.
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2024, 12:24:25 PMActually, I see nothing wrong, morally or otherwise, in what Shor does. He composes music and lavishes large sums of money on whoever is willing to play it. What is wrong in all that, honestly?
The only previous mention of Shor on this forum - per a search that I did - was you saying that you had heard his piano music and liked it!
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2024, 12:56:28 PMI'm not sure I can agree, Karl.
Here is how the Cambridge dictionary defines fraud:
the crime of getting money by deceiving people
This is the exact opposite of what Shor does: he pays good money to people willing to play his music. Seems to me this is much more like a freely-agreed-upon contract than a fraud. YMMV.
Hard to believe that a Cambridge dictionary doesn't recognize non-monetary fraudulence. The fraud I'm speaking of is exemplified by this cover:
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2024, 06:59:43 PM(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/3b/o7/gevi0mugoo73b_600.jpg)
What is your expectation of Shor, when the name sits beside those of
Brahms and
Chopin?
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2024, 11:30:11 AMI think you're being too harsh. In my book, any person who can write music, ie can put to paper what they hear in their head, does possess musical talent, albeit minimal. Take me, for instance: I often dream melodies of my own, of which I recall a piano concerto movement and an operatic aria --- yet I am completely unable to write them down. I mean, I could indicate the tempo and the dynamic markings but I'm at a complete loss and irremediable clueless when it comes to notes, chords and keys. The reverse is also true: I can play Eine Kleine Nacht Musik in my head --- but if I look at the score it's all the same as a calf looking at a new gate. Saul Dzorelashvili is obviously at least a class above on both counts.
A lot of the matters you bring up are indeed difficult, but they can be learned by someone willing to invest the time and care to learn them. It's like trying to learn a foreign language, especially later in life. I would be more supportive of Mr. Dz if I had seen in him any willingness to learn beyond the elementary knowledge he brought to these message boards when he started posting his music. For example, I recall when in one of his scores he notated a whole-note chord for harp that was tied for about a dozen measures following. Well, no, a note or chord struck on the harp decays almost immediately; a note tied at all beyond a short laisser vibrer is a physical impossibility. But any attempt to educate Saul was invariably greeted by spite or anger.
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 01:06:33 PMThe only previous mention of Shor on this forum - per a search that I did - was you saying that you had heard his piano music and liked it!
When was that? An exact quote would be most helpful.
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2024, 01:18:56 PMWhen was that? An exact quote would be most helpful.
five years ago!
Quote from: Florestan on October 22, 2019, 09:19:16 AMAlexey Shor - Childhood Memories
Listened to them on this disc:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Qcc1CUqvL._SL1500_.jpg)
and the music charmed me no end from the very first bar to the very last.
Here it is, played by Ingolf Wunder
[flash=200,200]https://www.youtube.com/v/uPkkXLomW4s&t=43s[/flash]
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 12, 2024, 01:12:44 PMWhat is your expectation of Shor, when the name sits beside those of Brahms and Chopin?
None whatsoever. I might or might not like his music, but only after listening to it. The fact that he's sandwiched between Chopin and Brahms is a ommonplace marketing trick which by 2024 AD should not be shocking anymore.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 12, 2024, 01:12:44 PMHard to believe that a Cambridge dictionary doesn't recognize non-monetary fraudulence. The fraud I'm speaking of is exemplified by this cover:
What is your expectation of Shor, when the name sits beside those of Brahms and Chopin?
The piece there is a joint composition by Shor and Pletnev.
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 01:24:22 PMfive years ago!
Thanks!
Well, I'll have to listen again and see if I have the same reaction. Heck, 30 years ago Beethoven was my favorite composers and today I mostly can't stand his music. ;D
Quote from: Mandryka on September 12, 2024, 01:25:36 PMThe piece there is a joint composition by Shor and Pletnev.
I think Maestro
Pletnev would ensure that [it not sound too bad], and arguably the typography supports that reading, nevertheless suggests that Shor is heavier business than his talents merit. I guess Saul's only artistic misfortune is not having the wealth to purchase access.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 01:13:12 PMany attempt to educate Saul was invariably greeted by spite or anger.
No argument from me on this. I incurred his wrath by stating the verifiable fact that Moses Mendelssohn was a "protected Jew" in the Kingdom of Prussia.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 12, 2024, 01:30:56 PMI guess Saul's only artistic misfortune is not having the wealth to purchase access.
True dat!
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 01:24:22 PMfive years ago!
I am listening to that one now. In fact, when I hit the Juilliard Store this weekend, I might just pick up the score (braving as best I can the smirks from the store personnel). I think this suite on the whole more successful than the 4th violin concerto, probably because it is simpler and less ambitious. But it shares some of the same basic problems - an utter inability to develop anything beyond just repeating the same idea over and over - as I hear in the concerto. The concerto, I would say, is more of a failure because it attempts so much more and is so much more long-winded.
Even so, as the suite progresses, I hear a depressing sameness to most of the pieces, and nothing that stands out melodically or harmonically. Perhaps I'll save my money at the store.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 01:43:26 PMan utter inability to develop anything beyond just repeating the same idea over and over
Quotea depressing sameness to most of the pieces, and nothing that stands out melodically or harmonically.
Satie, anyone? ;D
Quote from: Archaic Torso of Apollo on September 12, 2024, 08:12:42 AMNothing unique about being a "wealthy dilettante composer." Before there was Shor, there was this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Nanes
It exists in the pop and rock world, too. (Leaving aside obvious cases like Uzbekistan dictator Islom Karimov's daughter making a career as a pop musician,) the guitarist Henry Kaiser is said to be mediocre but has been able to play with a great many respected musicians because he is heir to a massive fortune.
The first time I ever thought about corruption in the classical music world, many years into my fandom, was seeing Kaija Saariaho setting up her children as nepo-babies, taking advantage of the fact they have a different surname than her. There was definitely a feeling of innocence lost.
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2024, 06:59:43 PMHe's also a multimillionaire
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 05:28:44 AMShor must pay well.
The former hints at the latter. There's no shame in performing artists taking money to perform.
Quote from: CRCulver on September 12, 2024, 02:11:13 PMThe first time I ever thought about corruption in the classical music world, many years into my fandom, was seeing Kaija Saariaho setting up her children as nepo-babies, taking advantage of the fact they have a different surname than her. There was definitely a feeling of innocence lost.
When I was about 14 I saw a pretty bleak concert where Itzhak Perlman's child attempted the Tchaikovsky First Piano Concerto without the strength or stamina to be heard above the orchestra. That was my introduction to that concept!
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 03:08:33 PMWhen I was about 14 I saw a pretty bleak concert where Itzhak Perlman's child attempted the Tchaikovsky First Piano Concerto without the strength or stamina to be heard above the orchestra. That was my introduction to that concept!
The success story is
John Corigliano, son IIRC of the NY Phil's concertmaster, who is a genuine composer.
I don't think there is anything wrong with this guy paying top dollar to get recordings of his compositions. So he won't set the classical music world on fire. It brings him joy to both write the music and hear it performed by top tier musicians.
He is doing no harm.
Quote from: Florestan on September 12, 2024, 01:49:23 PMSatie, anyone? ;D
Of course,
Satie's spare style was a reaction to High Romantic excess. As to Shor, I think of the old critique of a punk band, "Are they "primitive," or merely inept?
Quote from: San Antone on September 12, 2024, 04:07:46 PMI don't think there is anything wrong with this guy paying top dollar to get recordings of his compositions. So he won't set the classical music world on fire. It brings him joy to both write the music and hear it performed by top tier musicians.
He is doing no harm.
Perhaps not. But how many of these top tier musicians would be playing his music were it not for the money? Musicians care about the repertoire they choose to perform and record; this is their artistic legacy and they want to be thought of with respect. The article suggests at least an ambivalence on the part of these top tiers:
QuoteThe musician, who requested anonymity for fear of professional repercussions, had no artistic interest in this composition. But like many freelance musicians at the time, he was still feeling the financial anxiety of the pandemic closures. Despite his reservations, he took the gig.
Many aspects of the concert felt slapdash. "It was clear that the focus wasn't on putting on an excellent concert," he said. Looking back, he felt ambivalent about the experience. On the one hand, he worried about compromising his artistic principles, and said that if he hadn't been available for the Shor concert, he "wouldn't have spent a second regretting it." Still, he had seen online that many famous musicians . . . . were not just performing the composer's music, but praising it enthusiastically.
"If the saints allow themselves to be bought," he thought to himself, "then so can I."
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 04:41:13 PMBut how many of these top tier musicians would be playing his music were it not for the money?
None. But it was a lot of money.
As to legacies, a lot of serious and great conductors have recorded a lot of crappy Strauss waltzes, and no one cares. Likewise, a lot of serious and great pianists have put out encores recordings which no one pays any attention to. Shor looks to be equivalent to that. Perhaps if someone can point out his magnum opus to date, I may listen and see if it is bad or terrible.
Quote from: Brian on September 11, 2024, 06:59:43 PMHe's also a multimillionaire ....
So,
not an oligarch, then, and no,
Russian oligarchy is not necessarily
equivalent to
mafiosi. After all, there are hundreds of honest hard-working Russians who have become huge successes in the free-market capitalist society which has flourished especially in the Putin era. We can be sure his money is clean. Why wouldn't it be? This would be nothing like that old popular fiction of the singer who was hungry for a film role, so his Godfather pulled strings, and apart from a decapitated horse nobody got hurt.
No, I couldn't imagine any scenario in which principle might
possibly suggest that there's a sniff test this doesn't pass. He's just a rich bloke who happens to have leverage on some major Russian musical talent.
Quote from: Karl Henning on September 12, 2024, 05:51:21 PMHe's just a rich bloke who happens to have leverage on some major Russian musical talent.
Well, he made his fortune in the United States, although he then used it to buy Maltese citizenship. His politics seems nakedly opportunistic: he is cozy with all the Russian bureaucrats and hangers-on who can benefit his career, but also (according to his own account) supports Ukraine and paid for a Kyiv orchestra to leave the country.
Quote from: Todd on September 12, 2024, 04:55:46 PMNone. But it was a lot of money.
As to legacies, a lot of serious and great conductors have recorded a lot of crappy Strauss waltzes, and no one cares. Likewise, a lot of serious and great pianists have put out encores recordings which no one pays any attention to. Shor looks to be equivalent to that. Perhaps if someone can point out his magnum opus to date, I may listen and see if it is bad or terrible.
Yet some serious and great musicians have esteemed those Strauss waltzes very highly. You remember what Brahms wrote on a visiting card when quoting a passage from the Blue Danube: "Unfortunately not by Johannes Brahms." Sure, some pianists have put out encore recordings too. Even Charles Rosen did it. The difference here (per the article) is that some musicians performing Shor have felt a distinct sense of unease about this music. We can debate this back and forth forever. Yet when I see Daniel Lozakovich performing a Sher violin concerto with the solo part in front of him, that's as if to say, "I don't esteem this music enough to memorize it."
Quote from: Brian on September 12, 2024, 06:08:45 PMWell, he made his fortune in the United States, although he then used it to buy Maltese citizenship. His politics seems nakedly opportunistic: he is cozy with all the Russian bureaucrats and hangers-on who can benefit his career, but also (according to his own account) supports Ukraine and paid for a Kyiv orchestra to leave the country.
Well, that last speaks well of him.
Quote from: San Antone on September 12, 2024, 04:07:46 PMI don't think there is anything wrong with this guy paying top dollar to get recordings of his compositions. So he won't set the classical music world on fire. It brings him joy to both write the music and hear it performed by top tier musicians.
He is doing no harm.
Agreed.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 06:20:41 PM(per the article) is that some musicians performing Shor have felt a distinct sense of unease about this music.
The article mentions exactly one such musician, who is anonymous and whose statements and actions raise lots of questions about his own morality/principles, or rather lack thereof. Many of the musicians nominally mentioned are quoted as having praised Shor's music. Is their praise sincere? I don' know, but why would it not be? Maybe they are tired to play only serious music and immortal masterpieces and find in playing Shor's music a relief from the stress and exhaustion of their usual schedule. And if they make good money in the process, all the better for them.
I wonder how many of us would uncompromisingly turn down Shor's offer if we were in their shoes.
Quotewhen I see Daniel Lozakovich performing a Sher violin concerto with the solo part in front of him, that's as if to say, "I don't esteem this music enough to memorize it."
And yet Lozakovich is quoted in the article as having written "the music of Alexey Shor is a source of light." :laugh:
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 06:20:41 PMThe difference here (per the article) is that some musicians performing Shor have felt a distinct sense of unease about this music.
If they are uneasy about the music but take the dough anyway, then the artists who perform and record his music are as opportunistic as Shor. Which is perfectly fine. Poverty is not better than purity. If Shor's music is as bad as folks claims, his music will fade into the ether.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 12, 2024, 04:41:13 PMPerhaps not. But how many of these top tier musicians would be playing his music were it not for the money? Musicians care about the repertoire they choose to perform and record; this is their artistic legacy and they want to be thought of with respect. The article suggests at least an ambivalence on the part of these top tiers:
I do not understand your objections. What does it matter to you whether this rich amateur composer is able to make it lucrative enough to persuade famous musicians to play his music that they would otherwise ignore?
If any of these professional musicians has serious reservations about playing this music they ought to refuse the fee and let this wealthy composer find someone else for his project. But to take the money, play the concert, and then complain about how compromised they feel ... is in bad taste.
Quote from: San Antone on September 13, 2024, 04:21:59 AMBut to take the money, play the concert, and then complain about how compromised they feel ... is in bad taste.
If the artists who take the money are serious people with serious convictions, and if they are actually uneasy about their deeds, they would donate the fee they earned to charity. Otherwise, they are just opportunists who took the gig and are now virtue signaling to ensure future gigs with polite society. That's fine. My listening decisions will not be influenced by who recorded Shor's music.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 13, 2024, 04:38:24 AMAny such "moral" stance would be silly. Reminds of the Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock sketch on Saturday Night Live when all the whites thought that Trump getting elected was the worst thing ever.
A classic skit.
I see Mr Shor's clout buying as the classical music world equivalent of pop stars taking seven and eight figure paydays from sheiks and emirs with human rights violations and then either ignoring what they did or claiming they didn't know about the abuses. Just take the money and say it was a gig, and that a gig is a gig. It's not like Hitler paid them.
A less contentious example was Gilbert Kaplan using his money to produce his own mediocre recordings of Mahler's Second. Classical music recordings and performances are literally all about money.
@Brian made me re-listen to Shor's piano suite
Childhood Memories. Yes, I still find it charming --- in the same way as any number of salon pieces written in the 2nd half of the 19th century. Actually, I wonder: if this music were published as a newly-discovered work of, say, Cecile Chaminade, Nikolai Rubinstein or Anatol Liadov, how many people, including Shor's fiercest critics, would notice the hoax?
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 13, 2024, 05:21:56 AMWe used to pull that trick on a literature forum I used to go to back in the 1990s. We used James Joyce, and the ploy always worked. Hell, you could attribute Shor's work as an early work of a "great" composer, and that would dramatically transform what people thought of the work.
Precisely. I doubt
Childhood Memories would attract much devastating criticism if presented as a Tchaikovsky
juvenilia. ;D
Quote from: San Antone on September 13, 2024, 04:21:59 AMBut to take the money, play the concert, and then complain about how compromised they feel ... is in bad taste.
But that is apparently what some of them are doing. Bad taste indeed.
Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2024, 05:31:36 AMPrecisely. I doubt Childhood Memories would attract much devastating criticism if presented as a Tchaikovsky juvenilia. ;D
I think Tchaikovsky's "Seasons" ia on the whole a crushing bore. (Though not as bombastic as his Piano Sonata.) And "Memories" is more bearable than Mr. Shor's 4th violin concerto.
Quote from: San Antone on September 13, 2024, 04:21:59 AMIf any of these professional musicians has serious reservations about playing this music they ought to refuse the fee and let this wealthy composer find someone else for his project. But to take the money, play the concert, and then complain about how compromised they feel ... is in bad taste.
That is not how concerts work, though. It is usually a board or committee that chooses the programs, usually in consultation with the director. The orchestra members don't get that much of a say. Musicians would choose more diverse, challenging and exciting works and not say Brahms' 2nd for the 79th time.
Bad-mouthing the establishment on social media and choices made would be in bad taste, but just complaining to their friends and family that they didn't like what they were made to play is just human nature and nothing to wag one's finger at.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 13, 2024, 04:55:07 AMOn a much smaller, but personal scale, I am a "leader" and practitioner of a rather radical grading system, but the one major caveat of our system is that we recognize the cost of using it, and understand, fully, why most will not, as jobs are precarious, and I will never begrudge someone choosing to make money to pay bills or create wealth for their families; it's only logical.
Is it specifications grading?
Quote from: DavidW on September 13, 2024, 06:12:29 AMbut just complaining to their friends and family that they didn't like what they were made to play is just human nature and nothing to wag one's finger at.
If it is being covered on GMG, the artists under consideration did not confine gripes to friends and family.
Quote from: DavidW on September 13, 2024, 06:12:29 AMThat is not how concerts work, though. It is usually a board or committee that chooses the programs, usually in consultation with the director. The orchestra members don't get that much of a say. Musicians would choose more diverse, challenging and exciting works and not say Brahms' 2nd for the 79th time.
I doubt Shor's concerts went through that process, but were subsidized by him and the artists approached directly or through their agent. Anyone can rent Carnegie Hall and put on a concert of whatever music they wish; they can also pay to record their music. They can promote the concert or recording and hire the best musicians that agree to perform. Which is what I assume happened with Shor's recordings and concerts.
Most of my life I have been a professional musician. I know that most of the time I was hired to play music which I did not choose, and most of the time it was work, not the kind of music I would play for love. Being a professional musician that is the gig. only immature prima donnas complain about the music they are hired to play.
I take note of Ron Carter's (world class bassist, who's appeared on 1,000s of recordings) attitude when asked about the many recording sessions he's been on. He has humbly said that his goal is to bring his talent to the job and do his best to realize the composer's/songwriter's/bandleader's vision.
This is the life of a professional musician.
Quote from: Todd on September 13, 2024, 06:21:05 AMIf it is being covered on GMG, the artists under consideration did not confine gripes to friends and family.
Well, color me confused. It is difficult to tell when someone is explicitly talking about Schor or speaking broadly about commissions. This conversation quickly turned baggy and vague.
Quote from: DavidW on September 13, 2024, 08:52:07 AMWell, color me confused. It is difficult to tell when someone is explicitly talking about Schor or speaking broadly about commissions. This conversation quickly turned baggy and vague.
Doesn't matter. The gripes are public.
Quote from: Todd on September 13, 2024, 09:11:30 AMDoesn't matter. The gripes are public.
Yeah, I'm just tired.
Quote from: hopefullytrusting on September 13, 2024, 07:14:46 AMNot that you need any backing, but your words reminded me of this video - start around 3 min 30 sec (the criticism section):
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dne7aTMF5xE
Wonderful clip, and attitude. I agree wholeheartedly with him.
Quote from: San Antone on September 13, 2024, 06:58:36 AMMost of my life I have been a professional musician. I know that most of the time I was hired to play music which I did not choose, and most of the time it was work, not the kind of music I would play for love. Being a professional musician that is the gig. only immature prima donnas complain about the music they are hired to play.
I take note of Ron Carter's (world class bassist, who's appeared on 1,000s of recordings) attitude when asked about the many recording sessions he's been on. He has humbly said that his goal is to bring his talent to the job and do his best to realize the composer's/songwriter's/bandleader's vision.
This is the life of a professional musician.
And switching from performer to composer, that was the life of a professional composer too, at least until the early 1800s. They wrote music mostly, if not exclusively, on commission, bringing their talent to the job and doing their best to realize the commissioner's vision or requirements. The first and foremost example is Haydn. And when it comes to opera composers, things were even more fluid: they had to negotiate their way through not one, but several requirements, often at variance with each other, if not downright contradictory. Under such conditions any composer, no matter how talented, who had not at least a modicum of social adeptness and flexibility had little chance of having his music performed --- and in those times audience-centered successful performances was any composer's ultimate dream and goal.
I'm not saying it was an ideal situation, but I believe it ensured greater and healthier interaction between composers, performers and audiences than the post-Beethovenian, composer-centered solipsism.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on September 13, 2024, 06:03:14 AMAnd "Memories" is more bearable than Mr. Shor's 4th violin concerto.
Guess what is getting a full Naxos release in December...
(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/BackCovers/747313913978.jpg)
According to the booklet, Shor will be the composer-in-residence for the Oxford Philharmonic for two years, 2024-26.
Quote from: Brian on October 01, 2024, 09:05:44 AMGuess what is getting a full Naxos release in December...
(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/BackCovers/747313913978.jpg)
According to the booklet, Shor will be the composer-in-residence for the Oxford Philharmonic for two years, 2024-26.
Anyone with the resources to arrange the performances and recordings can be distributed by Naxos, yes. I cannot comment on the Oxford Phil.
That violin concerto gets around.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 01, 2024, 11:40:24 AMThat violin concerto gets around.
The two most threatening words in classical music: Alexey Shor Violin Concerto
Number Four.
The guy doesn't compel anyone to play or record his music, on the contrary, he pays good money to anyone willing to play or record it. I see nothing wrong with that. Then, there are people willing to pay tickets to hear his music live. I see nothing wrong with that, either.
The money probably compels them.
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2024, 12:11:26 AMThen, there are people willing to pay tickets to hear his music live. I see nothing wrong with that, either.
It sounds like this would be hard to judge, since he contractually obliges competition prizewinners etc to include his music on programs. You would have to survey the ticket buyers on why they came to the concert...
Quote from: Brian on October 02, 2024, 04:40:21 AMYou would have to survey the ticket buyers on why they came to the concert...
After having overheard many conversations at different concerts, I would love to see such a survey.
Quote from: Brian on October 02, 2024, 04:40:21 AMIt sounds like this would be hard to judge, since he contractually obliges competition prizewinners etc to include his music on programs.
Well, a contract is a freely-entered-upon agreement. If winning this or that competition implies having to perform Shor's music, then those who don't want to play it should not compete. It's that simple. I doubt, though, that in the real classical music world there's as much outrage and handwringing in this respect as on GMG...
QuoteYou would have to survey the ticket buyers on why they came to the concert...
That's true, they may primarily come for the other pieces in the program.
I am listening to the 5th violin concerto now. Wasn't 4 enough? This guy's music has no sense of direction at all. It just goes from one trite passage to another without any momentum or overall architecture. The poor violinist looks like he's in pain. Dude must really pay well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsdK-PpTIQc
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2024, 10:47:51 AMI am listening to the 5th violin concerto now.
I'm greatly puzzled, Larry. Why do you keep wasting your time on Shor's music? ???
QuoteWasn't 4 enough?
That's exactly my question for you. ;D
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2024, 10:47:51 AMI am listening to the 5th violin concerto now. Wasn't 4 enough? This guy's music has no sense of direction at all. It just goes from one trite passage to another without any momentum or overall architecture. The poor violinist looks like he's in pain. Dude must really pay well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsdK-PpTIQc
So, this man is similar to
Saul D., but with money? ;) 😇
Quote from: Cato on October 02, 2024, 11:02:22 AMSo, this man is similar to Saul D., but with money? ;) 😇
Alma Deutscher might qualify as well.
Still, I can think of much more harmful things in this crazy world of ours than their music.
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2024, 12:11:26 AMThe guy doesn't compel anyone to play or record his music, on the contrary, he pays good money to anyone willing to play or record it. I see nothing wrong with that. Then, there are people willing to pay tickets to hear his music live. I see nothing wrong with that, either.
I'm not sure the feeling of unease seen here and at VAN is not directed so much at Shor himself, but rather at the performers of Shor's music and record labels who can no longer be relied on as a mark of quality. Put it this way: if an august firm like Faber & Faber suddenly began acting like a vanity press, printing the poetry of whatever millionaire dilettante poet wanted to pay, would we not think that a shame?
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2024, 11:06:10 AMAlma Deutscher might qualify as well.
Still, I can think of much more harmful things in this crazy world of ours than their music.
Yes, but Alma Deutscher is up there.
I am subjecting myself to Alma Deutscher's Piano Concerto as I write. It's like winding up a doll and watching it play until the battery runs out. There's not an interesting let alone original musical idea anywhere there; it's like a succession of transitional passages starting from nowhere and leading nowhere, interrupted only by a set of cadenzas. And she looks so happy and satisfied with herself, as if she was truly a musical genius.
And she also has a piece called "In memory of the victims of October 7, 2023." Can't wait.
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2024, 11:02:12 AMI'm greatly puzzled, Larry. Why do you keep wasting your time on Shor's music? ???
Because one is not entitled to express an opinion on garbage unless one has actually experienced the garbage.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2024, 04:37:46 PMBecause one is not entitled to express an opinion on garbage unless one has actually experienced the garbage.
Only fair.
Quote from: Karl Henning on October 01, 2024, 11:58:15 AMThe two most threatening words in classical music: Alexey Shor Violin Concerto Number Four.
I'm hoping I needn't directly experience the garbage to feel the urge to shy away from it.
Quote from: Karl Henning on October 02, 2024, 05:46:42 PMI'm hoping I needn't directly experience the garbage to feel the urge to shy away from it.
Misery loves company. Why should I be the only one to suffer?
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2024, 04:37:46 PMBecause one is not entitled to express an opinion on garbage unless one has actually experienced the garbage.
Actually, garbage is not garbage until it is officially recognized as such. There were positive comments about Shor's music on this forum, right? Back then, people simply didn't know it was garbage, and they couldn't figure it out themselves.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2024, 04:29:44 PMI am subjecting myself to Alma Deutscher's Piano Concerto as I write. It's like winding up a doll and watching it play until the battery runs out. There's not an interesting let alone original musical idea anywhere there; it's like a succession of transitional passages starting from nowhere and leading nowhere, interrupted only by a set of cadenzas. And she looks so happy and satisfied with herself, as if she was truly a musical genius.
And she also has a piece called "In memory of the victims of October 7, 2023." Can't wait.
Very accurately said. This can be applied not only to composition but also to interpretation, can't it? Recordings of some of the trendy stars, actively promoted on this forum in particular, give me exactly those feelings.
Quote from: (poco) Sforzando on October 02, 2024, 04:37:46 PMBecause one is not entitled to express an opinion on garbage unless one has actually experienced the garbage.
You already experienced the Number Four garbage. Did you expect quality from Number Five? :laugh:
Quote from: Karl Henning on October 02, 2024, 05:46:42 PMI'm hoping I needn't directly experience the garbage to feel the urge to shy away from it.
I've never heard Saul's music, nor do I feel any urge to hear it.
Quote from: CRCulver on October 02, 2024, 02:07:39 PMI'm not sure the feeling of unease seen here and at VAN is not directed so much at Shor himself, but rather at the performers of Shor's music and record labels who can no longer be relied on as a mark of quality. Put it this way: if an august firm like Faber & Faber suddenly began acting like a vanity press, printing the poetry of whatever millionaire dilettante poet wanted to pay, would we not think that a shame?
Naxos has already recorded tons of obscure music (and so have many other equally respectable labels). Shor is a drop in the ocean.
Quote from: Florestan on October 02, 2024, 11:13:09 PMI've never heard Saul's music, nor do I feel any urge to hear it.
A commendable state of affairs.
Per the thread title: I doubt it's even a nice place to visit ....
A budding superstar, Behzod Abduraimov, has recorded a Shor album:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTczMzU2NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3MzA5OTE3OTJ9)
From My Bookshelf, Suite for Piano and Orchestra No. 2
the eight movements, lasting 36 minutes, all depict book characters on his bookshelf
I. Cinderella
II. Don Quixote
III. Tom Sawyer
IV. Quasimodo
V. Queen of Hearts
VI. D'Artagnan
VII. King Matt the First
VIII. Romeo and Juliet
(King Matt comes from a Polish children's book)
sound samples: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9733565--shor-composers-notebook-vol-2
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2024, 05:15:47 PMA budding superstar, Behzod Abduraimov, has recorded a Shor album:
...
sound samples: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9733565--shor-composers-notebook-vol-2
Pfui Teufel !!! :o
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2024, 05:15:47 PMA budding superstar, Behzod Abduraimov, has recorded a Shor album:
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTczMzU2NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3MzA5OTE3OTJ9)
From My Bookshelf, Suite for Piano and Orchestra No. 2
the eight movements, lasting 36 minutes, all depict book characters on his bookshelf
I. Cinderella
II. Don Quixote
III. Tom Sawyer
IV. Quasimodo
V. Queen of Hearts
VI. D'Artagnan
VII. King Matt the First
VIII. Romeo and Juliet
(King Matt comes from a Polish children's book)
sound samples: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9733565--shor-composers-notebook-vol-2
That was more than enough for moi. But I'm waiting for Yuja to perform it live, with a suitable change of attire for each movement. Then Hurwitz will give it a 10/10, alongside his most recent glowing review of the music of Nikolai Kapustin.
I bought this CD because of Jasmine Choi. My appreciation of her is as a YouTuber and I perhaps feel a connection as I live in her hometown.
I hadn't heard Shor before. I put on the flute concerto and had a big 'What the...?' moment.
This is the classical music world's equivalent of tribute bands.
I listened to parts of that flute concerto. It sounds like it's composed with the aid of AI.
I also chanced upon a double concerto for violin and viola, which is really hilarious. It sounds like the composer / computer was concerned about people getting bored with two soloists in suits, so there are lots cymbal crashes and sforzandi for no musical reason.
The general principle of Shor's composing seems to be that music is inherently tedious so you need to keep it snappy.